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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Ħ on May 12, 2011, 10:39:00 AM
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I was thinking about Train of Thought (and yes I know this is GMD). I generally rank it pretty high. I do that because I think it features some of DT's best songs (AIA, ES, and HTF in my opinion are probably top 15 songs). But the thought came to mind that I never really listen to Train of Thought from start to finish since it is just so exhausting.
So I was thinking.....is a good album either:
1) an album with top-notch songs, like Train of Thought?
or
2) an album that is satisfying from start to finish (like Falling Into Infinity.....or arguably Awake ::))
In Rich's song rating thread, my average song rating for Train of Thought was much higher than my average song rating for Falling Into Infinity. TOT secured the #4 spot while FII got #7. That's a pretty wide gap. But quite honestly, I would rather listen to FII in its entirety than TOT.
Another example I could give would be PT's The Incident. I don't really think the individual songs/movements really stand out that well, but I think that as a whole, it is very satisfying.
So what do you guys think?
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I think it depends on how cohesive it is, how well paced it is and how much of a 'flow' it has between the songs. Deadwing is, imo, the prime example of a really 'albumy' album. It has a couple of fairly weak songs imo, but it's their best end-to-end album for me.
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Is the music pleasing to my ears? Do I enjoy it? Is the production listenable (inb4 but Alex you listen to black metal lol)?
If you answered yes to all three of these, you sir have a good album.
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A good album is any album that you like.
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A good album is any album that you like.
OH GOD NOT THIS AGAIN
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I seem to have misunderstood the question; I thought he was asking the kind of 'how can some albums with weaker tracks than others still be more enjoyable as "albums?"' basically.
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I seem to have misunderstood the question; I thought he was asking the kind of 'how can some albums with weaker tracks than others still be more enjoyable as "albums?"' basically.
Yes that is exactly what I was asking.
EDIT: I think I can see what you're saying. I haven't really clicked with Deadwing, but I've only heard the version where the sound clips, so the production sounds pretty bad. If I ever get a 5.1 system, this is first on my list though.
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Both 1.) and 2.) are good and even "great". However, the best are full of top-notch songs from start to finish.
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The ideal album has either (or both)...
1. No bad or mediocre songs
2. An excellent listening experience from start to finish. (whether this is because of song flow, mood, adrenaline, or anything else doesn't matter)
For example, the albums And the Glass Handed Kites and No More Stories by Mew have a few mediocre songs between them. However, each time I listen to them, the experience of the album more than makes up for it, so they become good or great albums. Frengers in comparison is an enriching album experience (though not as much as the other two), but really excels in that all of its songs are excellent.
So yeah, that's my basic criteria.
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Every song on the album has to change genre about 50 times within the space 20 seconds.
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So is Unexpect the only good band in the world or something?
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It's hard to explain, but personally I think flow is really important when it comes to albums.
Great songs isn't enough, if there's no flow and everything feels 'out of place', then I wouldn't really enjoy that album very much.
It's kinda my problem with 'Greatest Hits'-albums, the songs are meant to be placed in a certain order on the album, and if you start to mix around here and there, the flow gets ruined.
With that said, I don't mean that an album with shitty songs and a great flow is good, it just has to have a balance of both things.
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Some classic 'albumy album' examples that I love:
Tool - Lateralus
Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited
The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's (probably the most obvious choice)
and my personal favourite, and what I think's the best 'albumy album' ever:
Radiohead - Kid A
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Zantera, I would almost agree with that, except for albums like Images and Words. Not much flow between songs (besides WFS/LtL), but each song is fantastic, which makes listening to the whole album a great experience despite the lack of some kind of intentional flow.
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I've never really cared that much for I&W, so not really fair to do that comparison, but take an album like In Absentia for example.
That album has pretty much only good (or better songs), but compared to other PT-albums, it just doesn't have a good flow, and that is what drags it down slightly for me.
With a much better flow, it would've been a better album. ;)
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I seem to have misunderstood the question; I thought he was asking the kind of 'how can some albums with weaker tracks than others still be more enjoyable as "albums?"' basically.
Yes that is exactly what I was asking.
It's pretty simple, listening or rating a collection of songs individually is different from rating them as a whole. Things like flow and variation are different when considering all of the songs individually compared to the album as a whole. To use a non musical example; each of the Lord of the Rings movies is fantastic but if you go through it all in one sitting then it's a slog.
I feel similarly with ToT. I enjoy the songs individually, but if I try to listen to the whole album at once everything seems to blur together and I eventually just stop paying attention. Compare that to Octavarium which has songs that, individually, I'd rate mostly lower than ToT, but the entire album has more variation than ToT and it just "clicks" better than ToT does.
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All I care about is good flow. The music can be anything it needs be.
The only way I see an album being bad is if the quality is just unlistenable, WDADU being a bit of an example.
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I've never really cared that much for I&W, so not really fair to do that comparison, but take an album like In Absentia for example.
That album has pretty much only good (or better songs), but compared to other PT-albums, it just doesn't have a good flow, and that is what drags it down slightly for me.
With a much better flow, it would've been a better album. ;)
I completely agree with this. IA has my top 2 PT songs, but it's nowhere near my top 3 of their albums.
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imb4debateaboutwhatmakesagoodalbum
but yeah, it also seems that the shorter albums tend to be "better" (more appealing to the fans) than average-long ones, such as Animals and Fear of a Blank Planet...
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1) an album with top-notch songs, like Train of Thought?
This is where I stopped reading.
In all seriousness, though, I find it hard to sit down and do something like, "hmm, do I enjoy this? What purpose does this song serve? Why should I care about what the artist is trying to convey?" I don't think music is as calculated as you think it is, Hayden.
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In all seriousness, though, I find it hard to sit down and do something like, "hmm, do I enjoy this? What purpose does this song serve? Why should I care about what the artist is trying to convey?" I don't think music is as calculated as you think it is, Hayden.
Exactly. I said it more concisely though. :P
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In all seriousness, though, I find it hard to sit down and do something like, "hmm, do I enjoy this? What purpose does this song serve? Why should I care about what the artist is trying to convey?" I don't think music is as calculated as you think it is, Hayden.
Exactly. I said it more concisely though. :P
GET OUTTA HERE RICH STOP MAKING ME LOOK BAD
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In all seriousness, though, I find it hard to sit down and do something like, "hmm, do I enjoy this? What purpose does this song serve? Why should I care about what the artist is trying to convey?" I don't think music is as calculated as you think it is, Hayden.
Exactly. I said it more concisely though. :P
GET OUTTA HERE RICH STOP MAKING ME LOOK BAD
<3
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In all seriousness, though, I find it hard to sit down and do something like, "hmm, do I enjoy this? What purpose does this song serve? Why should I care about what the artist is trying to convey?" I don't think music is as calculated as you think it is, Hayden.
Where's the mathematical formula to prove your point?
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A good album is any album that you like.
OH GOD NOT THIS AGAIN
LOL. Rich is right though
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In all seriousness, though, I find it hard to sit down and do something like, "hmm, do I enjoy this? What purpose does this song serve? Why should I care about what the artist is trying to convey?" I don't think music is as calculated as you think it is, Hayden.
Where's the mathematical formula to prove your point?
[aEnjoyability + bPurpose]/n = Album Level
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In all seriousness, though, I find it hard to sit down and do something like, "hmm, do I enjoy this? What purpose does this song serve? Why should I care about what the artist is trying to convey?" I don't think music is as calculated as you think it is, Hayden.
Where's the mathematical formula to prove your point?
[aEnjoyability + bPurpose]/n = Album Level
Oh god.
Oh god.
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Sorry, accidental double post
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In all seriousness, though, I find it hard to sit down and do something like, "hmm, do I enjoy this? What purpose does this song serve? Why should I care about what the artist is trying to convey?" I don't think music is as calculated as you think it is, Hayden.
Where's the mathematical formula to prove your point?
[aEnjoyability + bPurpose]/n = Album Level
Is this a serious post? I can't quite tell.
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Is a good song worth anything on its own? Or does it only become worth anything if it is part of an album?
If it's the latter, then obviously songs being individually great means nothing, since an individual song is worthless. The entire album needs to be great, flow and not having a weak track is the most important thing.
I'd imagine for most people though, a song on it's own does mean something. It certainly does for me - I like listening to full albums but to be honest, if the album flows well and is great to listen to as a whole, that's just a bonus. So what if an album doesn't flow well - what if it's just a collection of songs, that don't necessarily have to be listened to together? Is there anything really wrong with that?
So for me, Train Of Thought is a great album, possibly the best DT album, based purely on the quality of the individual songs. In The Name Of God, This Dying Soul, Endless Sacrifice, Honor Thy Father - all are top teir DT songs for me. So even if the album does get a bit heavy going to listen to all in one, I still think it's great.
An album being good as a whole does count for something, but one that is full of great individual songs isn't going to get many points taken off it for not being an album that has to be listened to as a whole.
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Is a good song worth anything on its own? Or does it only become worth anything if it is part of an album?
If it's the latter, then obviously songs being individually great means nothing, since an individual song is worthless. The entire album needs to be great, flow and not having a weak track is the most important thing.
I'd imagine for most people though, a song on it's own does mean something. It certainly does for me - I like listening to full albums but to be honest, if the album flows well and is great to listen to as a whole, that's just a bonus. So what if an album doesn't flow well - what if it's just a collection of songs, that don't necessarily have to be listened to together? Is there anything really wrong with that?
So for me, Train Of Thought is a great album, possibly the best DT album, based purely on the quality of the individual songs. In The Name Of God, This Dying Soul, Endless Sacrifice, Honor Thy Father - all are top teir DT songs for me. So even if the album does get a bit heavy going to listen to all in one, I still think it's great.
An album being good as a whole does count for something, but one that is full of great individual songs isn't going to get many points taken off it for not being an album that has to be listened to as a whole.
An individual epic song is just that, an individual epic song. Doesn't make the entire album great, but it does maybe help its rating a bit in my eyes.
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Each song needs to have good qualities in some capacities. More often than not if a song doesn't rub me the right way I can ease into it somehow. Nowadays I tend to lean towards flow as a great indicator. Even if the songs are unrelated nothing snaps me out of a listening experience like jarring transitions between songs whether it be through changes in volume, tempo, whatever. I'll use Thrice as a good example. All of their albums are solid but The Artist In The Ambulance and Vehissu have quick stop/start transitions between songs that tend to be noticeable. The Alchemy Index and Beggars, on the other hand, tend to have more of a cohesive flow between songs.
Album length is another huge one. A good album is only as long as it needs to be. An overlong album can take forever to get through and I personally don't buy into that "more music is better than nothing" and "more music for your buck" crap. Most of the time, superfluous stuff cripples an otherwise really good album/song. On the flip-side editing an album so tight it can't breathe can result is a bit of a rush and create a very underwhelming listen. I can't really cite a good example everyone would know but a friend of mine made an album a few years ago and I kept trying to explain to him why it wasn't good to edit every song exactly to the second it ended. That kinda restricts the flow to make the album sound a little more forced and rigid.
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Orcus, I don't think I've ever come across a single post of yours that I disagree with. This is no different.
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I agree with Orcus. The flow is very important (which is why I often rank concept albums higher), also IMO there has to be no songs letting the album down in terms of quality.
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I disagree with that second point; a song that's not great in isolation but that works within the context of the album is fine by me. See: Shallow.
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In all seriousness, though, I find it hard to sit down and do something like, "hmm, do I enjoy this? What purpose does this song serve? Why should I care about what the artist is trying to convey?" I don't think music is as calculated as you think it is, Hayden.
Where's the mathematical formula to prove your point?
[aEnjoyability + bPurpose]/n = Album Level
Oh you use this forumla too? Awesome. I keep all my calculations in a Excel spreadsheet. I've gotten to listen to so many albums lately that the spreadsheet is HUGE. If you want to see mine let me know.
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Chicks on the album cover is most important.
then if the jewel case is imported.
also Im big into the font used on the liner notes
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good music?
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What makes a "good album" ?
Who cares? Listen to whatever you want to, for whatever reasons. If it sounds good to your ears, then it's a good album.
ninja'd by rich and zander of course