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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: 73109 on May 01, 2011, 08:50:40 PM
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Wow.
modified for spelling. LRN2GRAMMARCOLE LOLOLOL
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Thanks, Bush.
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It's a conspiracy.
Thanks, Bush for plunging us into an unwinnable war and flushing our economy down the toilet.
FTFY
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My gut reaction is that this is wholly insignificant. Symbolically nice, but insignificant.
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My gut reaction is that this is wholly insignificant. Symbolically nice, but insignificant.
I completely agree. I might be wrong, but it seems that "terrorism" has died down after the aftermath of 9/11.
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My gut reaction is that this is wholly insignificant. Symbolically nice, but insignificant.
I completely agree. I might be wrong, but it seems that "terrorism" has died down after the aftermath of 9/11.
Bush has kept us safe.
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Huh? He's dead?
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My gut reaction is that this is wholly insignificant. Symbolically nice, but insignificant.
I completely agree. I might be wrong, but it seems that "terrorism" has died down after the aftermath of 9/11.
That's not why I said it, but ok. :lol
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No, all I'm saying is that I agree because he wasn't doing much since 9/11, so this is just a mental victory...I think.
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Yeah. Symbolically important, but I don't think it'll change much.
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No, all I'm saying is that I agree because he wasn't doing much since 9/11, so this is just a mental victory...I think.
What? Terrorism skyrocketed after 9/11. Just not in America.
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I mean the fear after the fear of 9/11. Basically, it has not been bad since everyone got all scared, more shit happened, and people got more scared.
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No, all I'm saying is that I agree because he wasn't doing much since 9/11, so this is just a mental victory...I think.
Mental victories are just as significant (if not more) than any other kind of victory. A victory is a victory.
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I mean the fear after the fear of 9/11. Basically, it has not been bad since everyone got all scared, more shit happened, and people got more scared.
You been on a plane recently?
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Yes, the fear is still there. The actions that resulted in fear have died down. That's what I'm talking about.
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REPORT: He was killed, along with several members of his family, while hiding out in a MANSION outside of Islamabad, Pakistan.
Looks like Pakistan has a few questions to answer.
USA - #winning
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lol
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Who killed him? America?
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Bush, duh.
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Yep. Also, retaliation?
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Yeah, probably. It's inevitable.
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Yep. Also, retaliation?
I'm thinking yes.
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Yeah, probably. It's inevitable.
Completely, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a suicide bombing in Iraq now.
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Fucking people.
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Who killed him? America?
Trump.
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Huzzah!
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Who killed him? America?
Trump.
Was he FIRED by any chance?
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I heard he got caught because he recently registered on PSN
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Who killed him? America?
Trump.
Was he FIRED by any chance?
:rollin
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I dunno. I'm watching C-Span now.
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Who killed him? America?
Trump.
Was he FIRED by any chance?
(https://3.7mustang.com/vb/attachments/f19/148875d1300826522-what-did-you-just-buy-n121391_citizen%2520kane%2520clap.gif)
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How is what we are doing in front of the White House any different then people celebrating in the streets of Iraq after 9/11. This is pathetic and all those celebrating should be...well...I don't know.
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I heard he got caught because he recently registered on PSN
:lol
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This will probably only help Obama's re-election campaign. I mean, depending on how all of this plays out. If it is for the better, than yeah. If things take a turn for the worse and we end up staying in Iraq longer, than probably not
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How is what we are doing in front of the White House any different then people celebrating in the streets of Iraq after 9/11. This is pathetic and all those celebrating should be...well...I don't know.
What?
Obama's speech is streaming on C-Span now.
https://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/
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Wow. New drummer announced, the Royal Wedding, Osama found dead. What an incredible week.
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the Royal Wedding
I don't see the significance in this.
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New drummer announced, the Royal Wedding
I don't see the significance in this.
FTFY
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I wonder if this will help Obama's approval raiting.
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the Royal Wedding
I don't see the significance in this.
Well it's something that only happens about every 20 years, so that's pretty cool. Just because it's not significant to you doesn't mean it isn't at all.
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I wonder if this will help Obama's approval raiting.
My guess is it skyrockets. My mom doesn't think so.
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I wonder if this will help Obama's approval raiting.
My guess is it skyrockets. My mom doesn't think so.
I hope not. Just because it was done under his watch doesn't mean he did anything significant to make it happen.
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The story of Bush.
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I wonder if this will help Obama's approval raiting.
My guess is it skyrockets. My mom doesn't think so.
I hope not. Just because it was done under his watch doesn't mean he did anything significant to make it happen.
Catching Saddam helped Bush, and this is much bigger so hope it does help his approval rating.
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This doesn't mean jack shit. They killed one guy out of a huge organization.
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How long until somebody claims he isn't really dead?
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I wonder if this will help Obama's approval raiting.
My guess is it skyrockets. My mom doesn't think so.
I hope not. Just because it was done under his watch doesn't mean he did anything significant to make it happen.
The story of Bush.
This, pretty much. The financial crisis wasn't Obama's fault either, but it hurt him a lot.
And, yes, Obama can't take credit for this, aside for a couple of reasons: (1) continuing to hunt Osama was a big part of his foreign policy, even one many of his supporters disagreed with, but now it's been a success and (2) from his speech, he made it sound like it was he who made the call whether to pursue Osama at this particular location in pakistan or not.
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I wonder if this will help Obama's approval raiting.
Don't worry, the American people will find something else to hate him for soon enough.
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How long until somebody claims he isn't really dead?
Already happened. I saw a thread on a certain forum that isn't to be mention with conspiracy theories like that.
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This doesn't mean jack shit. They killed one guy out of a huge organization.
So if someone killed Steve Jobs, or Bill Gates, or, shit, Barack Obama, none of that would mean "jack shit" either? This isn't "the end" of the war on terrorism, but I think you and some of the other younglings here are getting "this doesn't mean its over!" confused with "this doesn't mean jack shit."
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This doesn't mean jack shit. They killed one guy out of a huge organization.
It's not like that one guy was that "huge organization"'s figurehead and primary leader or anything...
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I hear Osama got a bad case of lead poisoning.
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This doesn't mean jack shit. They killed one guy out of a huge organization.
So if someone killed Steve Jobs, or Bill Gates, or, shit, Barack Obama, none of that would mean "jack shit" either? This isn't "the end" of the war on terrorism, but I think you and some of the other younglings here are getting "this doesn't mean its over!" confused with "this doesn't mean jack shit."
This.
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I'll be curious to hear why he wasn't taken alive. Seems like he'd be much more useful that way, to be honest.
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I'll be curious to hear why he wasn't taken alive. Seems like he'd be much more useful that way, to be honest.
I'd assume he was putting up a fight.
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I heard he got caught because he recently registered on PSN
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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I think this may be the most traffic P/R has had since Elections '08.
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Don't worry, guys. Ryan (letters) just assured me that, despite that this "doesn't mean jack shit" victory shots for him and his friends have already begun ;D
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It still doesn't mean anything. We college kids just use any excuse to consume alcohol. :biggin:
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I heard he got caught because he recently registered on PSN
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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All I can find is that it was a CIA job. No other details.
Not surprising if it was the CIA. Bush's biggest blunder in the whole Afghanistan mess was taking it away from George Tenet and the CIA and giving it to Rumsfeld's DoD.
As for it's effect on AQ, it doesn't seem like the dude's been very active. He's probably much better off to al Qada as a martyr than a retired spokesman.
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It still doesn't mean anything. We college kids just use any excuse to consume alcohol. :biggin:
Not sure if this was intentional or not, but I found it amusing anyway.
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Ladden. Oh, numbers :lol
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aint those prepositions a bitch?
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All I can find is that it was a CIA job. No other details.
Not surprising if it was the CIA. Bush's biggest blunder in the whole Afghanistan mess was taking it away from George Tenet and the CIA and giving it to Rumsfeld's DoD.
As for it's effect on AQ, it doesn't seem like the dude's been very active. He's probably much better off to al Qada as a martyr than a retired spokesman.
it wasn't a CIA job, I can guarantee you that. it was a purely military operation. i also find it very interesting that this happened during obama's term, and not bush's.
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posting it here, since it's political and editing the other thread.
I'm sorry but people celebrating the death of a human being disturbs me.
I mean, it's ok to feel a sense of solemn relief. But the thousands of people celebrating outside the White House is just fucked up.
In fact, it's just as fucked up as the Middle Eastern towns that were cheering on the night of 9.11
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It makes me feel uncomfortable, yeah.
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posting it here, since it's political and editing the other thread.
I'm sorry but people celebrating the death of a human being disturbs me.
I mean, it's ok to feel a sense of solemn relief. But the thousands of people celebrating outside the White House is just fucked up.
In fact, it's just as fucked up as the Middle Eastern towns that were cheering on the night of 9.11
While it's quite a bit different than cheering on 9/11, I agree it's a pretty sad sight to cheer at anybodies death. Even if it's a necessary evil, it's nothing to be cheered about.
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How is what we are doing in front of the White House any different then people celebrating in the streets of Iraq after 9/11. This is pathetic and all those celebrating should be...well...I don't know.
I agree...as noted.
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posting it here, since it's political and editing the other thread.
I'm sorry but people celebrating the death of a human being disturbs me.
I mean, it's ok to feel a sense of solemn relief. But the thousands of people celebrating outside the White House is just fucked up.
In fact, it's just as fucked up as the Middle Eastern towns that were cheering on the night of 9.11
Completely agree.
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Yay, I'm not the only one!
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How is what we are doing in front of the White House any different then people celebrating in the streets of Iraq after 9/11. This is pathetic and all those celebrating should be...well...I don't know.
I agree...as noted.
strongly disagree. they didn't surprisingly kill 3,000 people with a surprise attack that led to a war which in turn produced even more unfortunate deaths.
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posting it here, since it's political and editing the other thread.
I'm sorry but people celebrating the death of a human being disturbs me.
I mean, it's ok to feel a sense of solemn relief. But the thousands of people celebrating outside the White House is just fucked up.
In fact, it's just as fucked up as the Middle Eastern towns that were cheering on the night of 9.11
I agree to an extent, but the conditions are a bit different.
Those "middle-eastern" towns were likely celebrating because the killing of thousands of americans was a realization of an extremist view that the death of americans is a good thing.
The celebration of Osama's death is likely being celebrated because of the mass effort and many years of bringing a murderer and a terrorist to justice and having that sort of peace of mind.
Not saying I agree with it, and I'm not celebrating his death, but there's a difference and I don't see how it's "just as fucked up".
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posting it here, since it's political and editing the other thread.
I'm sorry but people celebrating the death of a human being disturbs me.
I mean, it's ok to feel a sense of solemn relief. But the thousands of people celebrating outside the White House is just fucked up.
In fact, it's just as fucked up as the Middle Eastern towns that were cheering on the night of 9.11
The celebration of Osama's death is likely being celebrated because of the mass effort and many years of bringing a murderer and a terrorist to justice and having that sort of peace of mind.
i agree with sonata for once.
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How is what we are doing in front of the White House any different then people celebrating in the streets of Iraq after 9/11. This is pathetic and all those celebrating should be...well...I don't know.
I agree...as noted.
strongly disagree. they didn't surprisingly kill 3,000 people with a surprise attack that led to a war which in turn produced even more unfortunate deaths.
Not to disrespect you or the troops or America even, but the Arab world sees the incidents a little differently than we do. They don't see the wars starting with 9/11, nor do they consider that the first attack.
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While this day is obviously one of joyous celebration for America it is important to remember that there are many serious issues surrounding the death of Osama Bin Laden which will shake out in the coming weeks. Remember that in war one must know his enemy, and it’s possible nobody knows their enemy less than Americans when it comes to Osama Bin Laden. Although he was a mass murderer he was also a highly intelligent man, and has for years shifted media focus on other top members of Al-Qaeda. He was smart enough to know that he would likely not live to see a natural end to his life and was completely at peace with that. Many will call him a coward, but there is no disputing some facts. Bin Laden gave up life as a billionaire to fight for his beliefs on the front lines against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Osama was not afraid to die, and it is extremely unlikely that he was unprepared for his own death. Make no mistake, Al-Qaeda will continue, though at least for awhile it may not be as effective as it has been. Many people question the resourcefulness of the organization, and it’s true it is without its figurehead, but it may have gained a martyr. It is an organization that was able to maintain its multi-national and multi-ethnic operations, operated under a central leadership, despite being at war with the greatest military power on earth.
I fear many people will see this as a justification of US foreign policy, but I would say this prompts a stronger look than ever at it. Osama Bin Laden, before taking a single action against the United States, declared war on us and clearly documented why he was doing so. US bases remained in the Saudi Kingdom after the first Iraq war and the United States clearly favored Israel in its Middle Eastern policies. Though Bin Laden’s actions on 9/11 are reprehensible they were certainly not without reason, and we remain ignorant of the world outside our own country if we do not recognize some fault of our own in the way we’ve conducted business in the world.
After the US Embassy bombings and the USS Cole bombing Bin Laden had made it clear he hoped to bring the American military to Afghanistan. A nation which has ejected multiple imperial powers Bin Laden himself has said that if we could be drawn there our nation could be forced into bankruptcy and expelled just as the Soviet Union had been. On 9/11 Bin Laden hit his mark and the United States declared war on terrorism. Our foreign policy steered us into two wars, one far more justified than the other, and in the process we have endured the types of financial hardships that Bin Laden had predicted and hoped for. The financial resources of Al-Qaeda are insignificant compared to that of the United States and yet they have caused US spending at home and abroad to skyrocket.
I have always believed that we can either learn from history or we can follow in its follies. I fear the emotional victory of this day will lead us into that latter path. While it may not feel right to leave Afghanistan we must look at how long it has been, how much it has cost us and ask, “Do we belong here?” Do we have the right to tell other people how they should run their country? Ask yourself how it feels when someone more powerful than yourself tells you how to run your life. While we might have righteousness in our hearts that will not stop resentment among many. What right does the United States have in maintaining a military presence in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia which contains the two holiest cities of the Muslim faith? I believe it is time we walk softly, but carry a big stick. While I think we must be prepared to strike against those who would strike against us, I don’t believe that holding our club over entire other countries is the best means with which to protect ourselves.
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How is what we are doing in front of the White House any different then people celebrating in the streets of Iraq after 9/11. This is pathetic and all those celebrating should be...well...I don't know.
I agree...as noted.
strongly disagree. they didn't surprisingly kill 3,000 people with a surprise attack that led to a war which in turn produced even more unfortunate deaths.
Not to disrespect you or the troops or America even, but the Arab world sees the incidents a little differently than we do. They don't see the wars starting with 9/11, nor do they consider that the first attack.
it's not the arab world. it's the arab extremists.
and i know you don't mean any disrespect, it's all good.
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It's the Arab world. I'm not saying every Arab feels that way, but I doubt you'll find non extremists who believe the same thing about this that Americans do.
The extremists just take to an extreme, hence their name. But their side of the coin is still different than the Americans. Whether or not they support Al Queda or denounce it, I assure you that most of the Arab world does not see 9/11 as the first strike.
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Adami is correct. And where'd you get that wall o' text from, Nick?
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Trust him on this one, he's Israeli. ;)
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Adami is correct. And where'd you get that wall o' text from, Nick?
My keyboard.
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Oh, my bad :lol I had thought you were one of the more pro-war types here for some reason.
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*snip*
Pretty sure it's a copy-pasta, but very well said anyway.
EDIT: nvm
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It's the Arab world. I'm not saying every Arab feels that way, but I doubt you'll find non extremists who believe the same thing about this that Americans do.
The extremists just take to an extreme, hence their name. But their side of the coin is still different than the Americans. Whether or not they support Al Queda or denounce it, I assure you that most of the Arab world does not see 9/11 as the first strike.
i'm not taking sides, im being objective. to say that most "arabs" believe that 9/11 is a good thing is absolute crap, im one of the few that actually know. what most don't know is that islam is, for the most part, a peaceful religion, and to think that "most arabs" celebrate the death of american's is wholly inaccurate.
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I don't think it has too much to do with Islam.
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Oh, my bad :lol I had thought you were one of the more pro-war types here for some reason.
So did I...go figure.
And ricky, yes, Islam is for the most part peaceful, but that does not mean the Arab outlook on America is what we think it is.
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Oh, my bad :lol I had thought you were one of the more pro-war types here for some reason.
I was for going into Afghanistan to bring Osama to justice and opposed to remaining there and VERY opposed to Iraq from day 1.
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I think that what Adami is referring to is a thing of geopolitics more than religion.
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Exactly.
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Oh, my bad :lol I had thought you were one of the more pro-war types here for some reason.
So did I...go figure.
And ricky, yes, Islam is for the most part peaceful, but that does not mean the Arab outlook on America is what we think it is.
my only question is how do you know?
edit - through the media?
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As for Islam, there is always fighting over whether it is a religion of peace or a religion of war. Much like everything else the answer is neither that simple or extreme. I've read the Koran and I've read the bible, and both are similar in that you can make you case for peace and war with scriptural support.
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Nick - ridiculously good post.
Here is my two cents in a condensed form:
One: get ready for more attacks. Al'queda will look at this as just another play in the game. Nick is right, Al'Queda and Bin Laden aren't/weren't dumb, they would have contingencies in place for events such as this and someone will soon fill the void. Not that it was likely Bin Laden was directly involved in a whole bunch of stuff.
Two: Obama went to huge lengths to claim ownership of the issue, I watched his speech live at work and he was very definitive that he authorised the operation, he gave the go ahead etc. No doubt, this isn't a hoax and hes going to be much better off politically for it.
Three: Those Americans who are chanting outisde of the White House are poor, sodden human beings; while I understand the sense of relief in eliminating the figurehead of an organisation who attacked their nation, contain yourselves people! As I've said before, IMO this doesn't mean much other than politically for the administration.
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Oh, my bad :lol I had thought you were one of the more pro-war types here for some reason.
So did I...go figure.
And ricky, yes, Islam is for the most part peaceful, but that does not mean the Arab outlook on America is what we think it is.
my only question is how do you know?
edit - through the media?
Books, newspapers, personal study, personal experience...
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Remember when Saddam was killed, and the video of his death went viral? That seemed to be pretty sobering to some of the people who wanted to celebrate it.
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Oh, my bad :lol I had thought you were one of the more pro-war types here for some reason.
So did I...go figure.
And ricky, yes, Islam is for the most part peaceful, but that does not mean the Arab outlook on America is what we think it is.
my only question is how do you know?
edit - through the media?
Books, newspapers, personal study, personal experience...
i'm just curious. you seriously think it's islam as a whole, and not just the extremeists?
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It's the Arab world. I'm not saying every Arab feels that way, but I doubt you'll find non extremists who believe the same thing about this that Americans do.
The extremists just take to an extreme, hence their name. But their side of the coin is still different than the Americans. Whether or not they support Al Queda or denounce it, I assure you that most of the Arab world does not see 9/11 as the first strike.
i'm not taking sides, im being objective. to say that most "arabs" believe that 9/11 is a good thing is absolute crap, im one of the few that actually know. what most don't know is that islam is, for the most part, a peaceful religion, and to think that "most arabs" celebrate the death of american's is wholly inaccurate.
I agree, unfortunately I didn't say anything near what you're arguing against. I never mentioned the words "good" or "bad" in my post. I know a lot about Islam, and I know a lot about the Arab countries, even if you did a tour in one or two of them. I know most arabs don't think 9/11 was a good thing, what I said was that most Arabs don't view 9/11 as the first strike. If you have something to comment about what I'm saying, feel free. But what you responded with had nothing at all to do with what I posted. I am a strong supporter of Arabs and Muslims, and I consider them to be my cousins.
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It's the Arab world. I'm not saying every Arab feels that way, but I doubt you'll find non extremists who believe the same thing about this that Americans do.
The extremists just take to an extreme, hence their name. But their side of the coin is still different than the Americans. Whether or not they support Al Queda or denounce it, I assure you that most of the Arab world does not see 9/11 as the first strike.
i'm not taking sides, im being objective. to say that most "arabs" believe that 9/11 is a good thing is absolute crap, im one of the few that actually know. what most don't know is that islam is, for the most part, a peaceful religion, and to think that "most arabs" celebrate the death of american's is wholly inaccurate.
I agree, unfortunately I didn't say anything near what you're arguing against. I never mentioned the words "good" or "bad" in my post. I know a lot about Islam, and I know a lot about the Arab countries, even if you did a tour in one or two of them. I know most arabs don't think 9/11 was a good thing, what I said was that most Arabs don't view 9/11 as the first strike. If you have something to comment about what I'm saying, feel free. But what you responded with had nothing at all to do with what I posted. I am a strong supporter of Arabs and Muslims, and I consider them to be my cousins.
sorry, i guess i interpreted your post wrong...my bad.
in all seriousness, in a non argumentative way, i am just curious to know what we (the US) did that led up to the attacks, as I in all seriousness don't know.
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It's the Arab world. I'm not saying every Arab feels that way, but I doubt you'll find non extremists who believe the same thing about this that Americans do.
The extremists just take to an extreme, hence their name. But their side of the coin is still different than the Americans. Whether or not they support Al Queda or denounce it, I assure you that most of the Arab world does not see 9/11 as the first strike.
i'm not taking sides, im being objective. to say that most "arabs" believe that 9/11 is a good thing is absolute crap, im one of the few that actually know. what most don't know is that islam is, for the most part, a peaceful religion, and to think that "most arabs" celebrate the death of american's is wholly inaccurate.
I agree, unfortunately I didn't say anything near what you're arguing against. I never mentioned the words "good" or "bad" in my post. I know a lot about Islam, and I know a lot about the Arab countries, even if you did a tour in one or two of them. I know most arabs don't think 9/11 was a good thing, what I said was that most Arabs don't view 9/11 as the first strike. If you have something to comment about what I'm saying, feel free. But what you responded with had nothing at all to do with what I posted. I am a strong supporter of Arabs and Muslims, and I consider them to be my cousins.
sorry, i guess i interpreted your post wrong...my bad.
in all seriousness, in a non argumentative way, i am just curious to know what we (the US) did that led up to the attacks, as I in all seriousness don't know.
Here's a random link, it's a start, I am tired, but maybe others can give you better info. https://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6308.htm
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Two: Obama went to huge lengths to claim ownership of the issue, I watched his speech live at work and he was very definitive that he authorised the operation, he gave the go ahead etc.
I noticed this, seemed pretty lame especially because it was so painfully obvious what he was doing.
Anyway, I agree with those who are saying it's probably mostly inconsequential, and that anybody celebrating this (or the death of any other human being) has got problems.
-J
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posting it here, since it's political and editing the other thread.
I'm sorry but people celebrating the death of a human being disturbs me.
I mean, it's ok to feel a sense of solemn relief. But the thousands of people celebrating outside the White House is just fucked up.
In fact, it's just as fucked up as the Middle Eastern towns that were cheering on the night of 9.11
I agree to an extent, but the conditions are a bit different.
Those "middle-eastern" towns were likely celebrating because the killing of thousands of americans was a realization of an extremist view that the death of americans is a good thing.
The celebration of Osama's death is likely being celebrated because of the mass effort and many years of bringing a murderer and a terrorist to justice and having that sort of peace of mind.
Not saying I agree with it, and I'm not celebrating his death, but there's a difference and I don't see how it's "just as fucked up".
My take on it was that they were celebrating that a blow had been struck. If the towers and planes had been deserted, they would still have celebrated a significant attack on American soil. The body count was inconsequential. In that regard, I'd say that the celebrations are quite similar.
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Two: Obama went to huge lengths to claim ownership of the issue, I watched his speech live at work and he was very definitive that he authorised the operation, he gave the go ahead etc.
I noticed this, seemed pretty lame especially because it was so painfully obvious what he was doing.
Anyway, I agree with those who are saying it's probably mostly inconsequential, and that anybody celebrating this (or the death of any other human being) has got problems.
-J
Maybe you should visit ground zero and talk to some people in NYC before making such ignorant statements.
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Not only should his death be celebrated but his corpse should be violated on national tv by people of all religions and races.
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Not only should his death be celebrated but his corpse should be violated on national tv by people of all religions and races.
(https://www.gossipboulevard.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/mel-gibson-crazy-mustache.jpg)
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The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization, released a statement Monday morning welcoming the death of bin Laden.
"As we have stated repeatedly since the 9/11 terror attacks, bin Laden never represented Muslims or Islam. In fact, in addition to the killing of thousands of Americans, he and al Qaeda caused the deaths of countless Muslims worldwide," the statement said. "We also reiterate President Obama's clear statement tonight that the United States is not at war with Islam."
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Does anyone actually think america is at war with Islam? Wtf
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I want to believe.
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Why would you want to believe that?
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Nick is correct in this thread.
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I want to believe.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fLbJ3DND8Hc/TD_UBi8yX4I/AAAAAAAAEMY/LcqSL_PCpu8/s1600/office.jpg)
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As for Islam, there is always fighting over whether it is a religion of peace or a religion of war. Much like everything else the answer is neither that simple or extreme. I've read the Koran and I've read the bible, and both are similar in that you can make you case for peace and war with scriptural support.
True. Christianity is responsible For more deaths throughout history than any other religion. People in this country love to forget about that and act like Islam is the only violent religion.
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I want to believe.
...that Osama is dead.
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True. Christianity is responsible For more deaths throughout history than any other religion. People in this country love to forget about that and act like Islam is the only violently-persued religion.
FTFY
In other news, has anyone seen that screen grab from Fox News 40? IDK how to do images on here, but they put up "Obama Bin Laden" is dead...last time I looked B and S aren't that close together; except when it comes to Fox News coverage of partisan politics.
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True. Christianity is responsible For more deaths throughout history than any other religion. People in this country love to forget about that and act like Islam is the only violently-persued religion.
FTFY
In other news, has anyone seen that screen grab from Fox News 40? IDK how to do images on here, but they put up "Obama Bin Laden" is dead...last time I looked B and S aren't that close together; except when it comes to Fox News coverage of partisan politics.
yeah Geraldo also said Obama was dead.
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lolgeraldorivera
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https://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s05e09-osama-bin-laden-has-farty-pants
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i think this song is appropriate for tonight..
https://youtu.be/IhnUgAaea4M (https://youtu.be/IhnUgAaea4M)
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EDIT: Never mind...I'll leave it for the State-side crowd tomorrow
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Not only should his death be celebrated but his corpse should be violated on national tv by people of all religions and races.
Not sure if serious, but this just doesn't sit right with me. Celebrating the victory and situation In the lack of a terrorist leader is fine, but celebrating the physical death along with wishing death, torture, or other horrible things on a person for a cold and vengeful satisfaction makes me worry for the human race.
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Yeah, I agree with Implode. The way some people are reacting to this news is really sad. I suddenly remember why, after 9/11, we were so easily talked-in to doing whatever the Bush administration said was right for us to do.
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Not only should his death be celebrated but his corpse should be violated on national tv by people of all religions and races.
Not sure if serious, but this just doesn't sit right with me. Celebrating the victory and situation In the lack of a terrorist leader is fine, but celebrating the physical death along with wishing death, torture, or other horrible things on a person for a cold and vengeful satisfaction makes me worry for the human race.
it's simple really. If you kill hundreds, thousands, or millions of innocent people you are no longer human, you have become a monster and monsters should be killed and celebrated when dead. Not very complicated at all to me.
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Yeah, I agree with Implode. The way some people are reacting to this news is really sad. I suddenly remember why, after 9/11, we were so easily talked-in to doing whatever the Bush administration said was right for us to do.
not the same AT ALL. I am Anti war in most cases. But if a mass murderer gets brought to a little bit of justice that's a good thing. My statement about corpse violation was a silly way of saying killing him isn't enough. MORE needs to be done but he's already dead so what can we do? Only logical solution. :metal
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Not only should his death be celebrated but his corpse should be violated on national tv by people of all religions and races.
Not sure if serious, but this just doesn't sit right with me. Celebrating the victory and situation In the lack of a terrorist leader is fine, but celebrating the physical death along with wishing death, torture, or other horrible things on a person for a cold and vengeful satisfaction makes me worry for the human race.
it's simple really. If you kill hundreds, thousands, or millions of innocent people you are no longer human, you have become a monster and monsters should be killed and celebrated when dead. Not very complicated at all to me.
Anyone "celebrating" now has no idea that this isn't anywhere near over.
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Two: Obama went to huge lengths to claim ownership of the issue, I watched his speech live at work and he was very definitive that he authorised the operation, he gave the go ahead etc.
I noticed this, seemed pretty lame especially because it was so painfully obvious what he was doing.
Just curious, how else could he have described it? He IS the one that authorized it, mainly because he is the only one who COULD have authorized.
BTW, before 10:30, when no one knew what was going on, before moron congressional staffers started leaking the news - I called it.
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(https://i.imgur.com/IaS5o.jpg)
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:lol
I heard he got caught because he recently registered on PSN
:rollin
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Jingoism is now running full throttle again.
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Not only should his death be celebrated but his corpse should be violated on national tv by people of all religions and races.
Not sure if serious, but this just doesn't sit right with me. Celebrating the victory and situation In the lack of a terrorist leader is fine, but celebrating the physical death along with wishing death, torture, or other horrible things on a person for a cold and vengeful satisfaction makes me worry for the human race.
it's simple really. If you kill hundreds, thousands, or millions of innocent people you are no longer human, you have become a monster and monsters should be killed and celebrated when dead. Not very complicated at all to me.
Anyone "celebrating" now has no idea that this isn't anywhere near over.
People arent celebrating anything being over...surely not terrorism....they are just celebrating some well deserved revenge.
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Not only should his death be celebrated but his corpse should be violated on national tv by people of all religions and races.
Not sure if serious, but this just doesn't sit right with me. Celebrating the victory and situation In the lack of a terrorist leader is fine, but celebrating the physical death along with wishing death, torture, or other horrible things on a person for a cold and vengeful satisfaction makes me worry for the human race.
it's simple really. If you kill hundreds, thousands, or millions of innocent people you are no longer human, you have become a monster and monsters should be killed and celebrated when dead. Not very complicated at all to me.
Anyone "celebrating" now has no idea that this isn't anywhere near over.
People arent celebrating anything being over...surely not terrorism....they are just celebrating some well deserved revenge.
As horrible as 9/11 was, if it's well-deserved revenge then I echo Implode's statement.
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I thought this article (the first half of it, anyway) was kinda interesting and relevant to discussion. I think in some sense it explains why to a lot of members apparently this isn't a big deal anymore (with some patriotism sprinkled in, but if you get around that there is a point to be made nevertheless).
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/opinion/02douthat.html?hp
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What Bin Laden's Death Means: Seven Observations
by Jeffrey Goldberg
1) This is a great moment in American history. There is justice in the world. But where is Ayman al-Zawahiri? Capturing the al Qaeda number-two would close this chapter almost entirely.
2) Pakistan has a great deal of explaining to do -- how could Bin Laden have been living near Islamabad, in a city, Abbotttabad, that is in some ways a military cantonment? This operation will only confirm for many people that Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI, knew more about the al Qaeda presence in its country then it shared with the U.S..
3) President Obama has laid to rest, at least for everyone not named Donald Trump, the notion that he is some sort of soft-on-terror, Manchurian-candidate stealth-Muslim.
4) American deterrent power is partially restored. The lesson for terrorists: If you commit an act of violence against America, this country will hunt you down until you are dead or in chains.
5) Islamist terrorism is not over. Bin Laden was not an operator, nor was he seemingly in control of operators. Cells may be activated in the coming days, individuals with jihadist goals might take action. This is a dangerous moment. An inevitable moment, but a dangerous one.
6) Al Qaeda is a diminished force, as a terrorist entity. But its ideas will remain potent among a small minority of Muslims, disaffected males in European countries among them.
7) If President Obama is seeking a quicker exit strategy from Afghanistan, he now has one.
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Does anyone actually think america is at war with Islam? Wtf
Of course they are not. But... have you been paying attention to the last ten years?
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Does anyone actually think america is at war with Islam? Wtf
Of course they are not. But... have you been paying attention to the last ten years?
This. Actions speak louder than words, and Bush's war at least was a war on Islam, no matter what lip service he or Obama paid the 00s administration.
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Two: Obama went to huge lengths to claim ownership of the issue, I watched his speech live at work and he was very definitive that he authorised the operation, he gave the go ahead etc.
I noticed this, seemed pretty lame especially because it was so painfully obvious what he was doing.
Just curious, how else could he have described it? He IS the one that authorized it, mainly because he is the only one who COULD have authorized.
BTW, before 10:30, when no one knew what was going on, before moron congressional staffers started leaking the news - I called it.
Aww come on, hef, you know how it goes in P/R. Obama has been, is, and always will be good for nothing. Allowing him to take credit for anything (much less outright giving him credit) is completely 100% unacceptable. Hell, I'm surprised nobody has come in here beating the f*cking birth certificate drum. The statements in here that he really had nothing to do with it and that he shouldn't take credit for it, when he's the one who gave the orders to act on the intelligence that they received, are completely ridiculous, but nothing that surprises me. Some people are just always going to refuse to believe that our President is capable of doing anything worthwhile.
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Not only should his death be celebrated but his corpse should be violated on national tv by people of all religions and races.
Not sure if serious, but this just doesn't sit right with me. Celebrating the victory and situation In the lack of a terrorist leader is fine, but celebrating the physical death along with wishing death, torture, or other horrible things on a person for a cold and vengeful satisfaction makes me worry for the human race.
it's simple really. If you kill hundreds, thousands, or millions of innocent people you are no longer human, you have become a monster and monsters should be killed and celebrated when dead. Not very complicated at all to me.
Anyone "celebrating" now has no idea that this isn't anywhere near over.
People arent celebrating anything being over...surely not terrorism....they are just celebrating some well deserved revenge.
The reality of the celebration for many is this. Those who lost loved ones and many others were starting to believe Bin Laden would eventually die of his Kidney ailment or whatever, getting the last laugh right down to his last gasp. It is satisfying to many that, that will not be the case and he didn't get that satisfaction. and that makes this as joyous a reason to celebrate as any.
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Exactly. Celebrating the capture and execution of one mass murderer is a lot different than celebrating the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians. I doubt anybody that's "celebrating" has any sort of mistaken belief that this is all over now.
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Oh, I'm not saying I'm not happy about all of this. I'm happy we finally got him. But is nationally publicized corpse violation going to help anyone get over the loss of loved ones? Personally, I feel like that would be giving Osama the last laugh; it'd be giving him one more chance to rob the humanity from a couple thousand more people.
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Oh, I'm not saying I'm not happy about all of this. I'm happy we finally got him. But is nationally publicized corpse violation going to help anyone get over the loss of loved ones?
For the 3000 or so family members who lost loved ones.....yes.
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Oh, I'm not saying I'm not happy about all of this. I'm happy we finally got him. But is nationally publicized corpse violation going to help anyone get over the loss of loved ones?
For the 3000 or so family members who lost loved ones.....yes.
Eh, like I said: I'm glad we got him, but I'm also glad people won't have the chance to take part in that kind of behavior. It's dehumanizing-- not to Osama (he's got no humanity to dehumanize) but everyone else on the other side. That's my opinion, anyway.
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...
Anyway, here's an article that sums up my thoughts pretty well
https://www.salon.com/news/osama_bin_laden/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/05/02/osama_and_chants_of_usa
There is ample reason to feel relief that Osama bin Laden is no longer a threat to the world, and I say that not just because I was among the many congressional staffers told to flee the U.S. Capitol on 9/11. I say that because he was clearly an evil person who celebrated violence against all who he deemed "enemies" -- and the world needs less of such zealotry, not more.
However, somber relief was not the dominant emotion presented to America when bin Laden’s death was announced. Instead, the Washington press corps -- helped by a wild-eyed throng outside the White House -- insisted that unbridled euphoria is the appropriate response. And in this we see bin Laden’s more enduring victory -- a victory that will unfortunately last far beyond his passing.
For decades, we have held in contempt those who actively celebrate death. When we’ve seen video footage of foreigners cheering terrorist attacks against America, we have ignored their insistence that they are celebrating merely because we have occupied their nations and killed their people. Instead, we have been rightly disgusted -- not only because they are lauding the death of our innocents, but because, more fundamentally, they are celebrating death itself. That latter part had been anathema to a nation built on the presumption that life is an "unalienable right."
But in the years since 9/11, we have begun vaguely mimicking those we say we despise, sometimes celebrating bloodshed against those we see as Bad Guys just as vigorously as our enemies celebrate bloodshed against innocent Americans they (wrongly) deem as Bad Guys. Indeed, an America that once carefully refrained from flaunting gruesome pictures of our victims for fear of engaging in ugly death euphoria now ogles pictures of Uday and Qusay’s corpses, rejoices over images of Saddam Hussein’s hanging and throws a party at news that bin Laden was shot in the head.
This is bin Laden’s lamentable victory -- he has changed America’s psyche from one that saw violence as a regrettable-if-sometimes-necessary act into one that finds orgasmic euphoria in news of bloodshed. In other words, he’s helped drag us down into his sick nihilism by making us like too many other bellicose societies in history -- the ones that aggressively cheer on killing, as long as it is the Bad Guy that is being killed.
Again, this isn’t in any way to equate Americans who cheer on bin Laden’s death with, say, those who cheered after 9/11. Bin Laden was a mass murderer who had punishment coming to him, while the 9/11 victims were innocent civilians whose deaths are an unspeakable tragedy. Likewise, this isn’t to say hat we should feel nothing at bin Laden’s neutralization, or that the announcement last night isn't cause for any positive feeling at all -- it most certainly is.
But it is to say that our reaction to the news last night should be the kind often exhibited by victims’ families at a perpetrator’s lethal injection -- a reaction typically marked by both muted relief but also by sadness over the fact that the perpetrators’ innocent victims are gone forever, the fact that the perpetrator's death cannot change the past, and the fact that our world continues to produce such monstrous perpetrators in the first place.
When we lose the sadness part -- when all we do is happily scream "USA! USA! USA!” at news of yet more killing in a now unending back-and-forth war -- it’s a sign we may be inadvertently letting the monsters win.
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...
Anyway, here's an article that sums up my thoughts pretty well
https://www.salon.com/news/osama_bin_laden/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/05/02/osama_and_chants_of_usa
There is ample reason to feel relief that Osama bin Laden is no longer a threat to the world, and I say that not just because I was among the many congressional staffers told to flee the U.S. Capitol on 9/11. I say that because he was clearly an evil person who celebrated violence against all who he deemed "enemies" -- and the world needs less of such zealotry, not more.
However, somber relief was not the dominant emotion presented to America when bin Laden’s death was announced. Instead, the Washington press corps -- helped by a wild-eyed throng outside the White House -- insisted that unbridled euphoria is the appropriate response. And in this we see bin Laden’s more enduring victory -- a victory that will unfortunately last far beyond his passing.
For decades, we have held in contempt those who actively celebrate death. When we’ve seen video footage of foreigners cheering terrorist attacks against America, we have ignored their insistence that they are celebrating merely because we have occupied their nations and killed their people. Instead, we have been rightly disgusted -- not only because they are lauding the death of our innocents, but because, more fundamentally, they are celebrating death itself. That latter part had been anathema to a nation built on the presumption that life is an "unalienable right."
But in the years since 9/11, we have begun vaguely mimicking those we say we despise, sometimes celebrating bloodshed against those we see as Bad Guys just as vigorously as our enemies celebrate bloodshed against innocent Americans they (wrongly) deem as Bad Guys. Indeed, an America that once carefully refrained from flaunting gruesome pictures of our victims for fear of engaging in ugly death euphoria now ogles pictures of Uday and Qusay’s corpses, rejoices over images of Saddam Hussein’s hanging and throws a party at news that bin Laden was shot in the head.
This is bin Laden’s lamentable victory -- he has changed America’s psyche from one that saw violence as a regrettable-if-sometimes-necessary act into one that finds orgasmic euphoria in news of bloodshed. In other words, he’s helped drag us down into his sick nihilism by making us like too many other bellicose societies in history -- the ones that aggressively cheer on killing, as long as it is the Bad Guy that is being killed.
Again, this isn’t in any way to equate Americans who cheer on bin Laden’s death with, say, those who cheered after 9/11. Bin Laden was a mass murderer who had punishment coming to him, while the 9/11 victims were innocent civilians whose deaths are an unspeakable tragedy. Likewise, this isn’t to say hat we should feel nothing at bin Laden’s neutralization, or that the announcement last night isn't cause for any positive feeling at all -- it most certainly is.
But it is to say that our reaction to the news last night should be the kind often exhibited by victims’ families at a perpetrator’s lethal injection -- a reaction typically marked by both muted relief but also by sadness over the fact that the perpetrators’ innocent victims are gone forever, the fact that the perpetrator's death cannot change the past, and the fact that our world continues to produce such monstrous perpetrators in the first place.
When we lose the sadness part -- when all we do is happily scream "USA! USA! USA!” at news of yet more killing in a now unending back-and-forth war -- it’s a sign we may be inadvertently letting the monsters win.
Yeah pretty much that, which is why I think PC is spot-on.
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Unbridled Euphoria is a good description. It really shouldn't accompany bloodshed of any kind.
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So I guess the rebel alliance shouldn't have celebrated when they blew up the death star? Just sayin'.
The broad generalizations being made here are really sad. That anyone celebrating is a dumb American who can't see the war isn't over, or are people with problems are such lame statements made by people behind a computer screen trying to 1 up everyone on the morality scale. But its still way off base anyways. It's the celebration of the end of one of our missions against terrorism. It's not just a victory for the US, but for anyone against terrorism everywhere in the world. Bringing the #1 most wanted guy in the world for us to justice after 10 long years is worthy of some celebration. Be cynical all you want, but let the people who it matters to have a day of relief and celebration that the fucker is dead.
Nothing about being happy this happened is wrong.
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So I guess the rebel alliance shouldn't have celebrated when they blew up the death star? Just sayin'.
The broad generalizations being made here are really sad. That anyone celebrating is a dumb American who can't see the war isn't over, or are people with problems are such lame statements made by people behind a computer screen trying to 1 up everyone on the morality scale. But its still way off base anyways. It's the celebration of the end of one of our missions against terrorism. It's not just a victory for the US, but for anyone against terrorism everywhere in the world. Bringing the #1 most wanted guy in the world for us to justice after 10 long years is worthy of some celebration. Be cynical all you want, but let the people who it matters to have a day of relief and celebration that the fucker is dead.
Nothing about being happy this happened is wrong.
That's only slightly different, mainly because that's a fictional event. :loser:
But to be serious that series itself disturbs me, because the SW universe is in some ways tyrannical.
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I think that what is happening in a lot of situations here is that humans are, like they always do, just looking for a reason to celebrate and go bat-shit crazy. I agree with SD and PC and 'goon that unbridled euphoria probably shouldn't accompany bloodshed of any kind, but then again I might just be a bleeding heart.
That being said (I hate it when people say this, and here I am...) I agree with 7 String that calling those people dumb or trying to 1-up them on the morality scale is kind of silly. There is reason to celebrate here. I think it's going a little overboard, but I understand it.
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All I can find is that it was a CIA job. No other details.
Not surprising if it was the CIA. Bush's biggest blunder in the whole Afghanistan mess was taking it away from George Tenet and the CIA and giving it to Rumsfeld's DoD.
As for it's effect on AQ, it doesn't seem like the dude's been very active. He's probably much better off to al Qada as a martyr than a retired spokesman.
it wasn't a CIA job, I can guarantee you that. it was a purely military operation. i also find it very interesting that this happened during obama's term, and not bush's.
Heard on the news this morning that IT WAS a CIA job, using Navy Seals on loan to the intelligence agency...
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All I can find is that it was a CIA job. No other details.
Not surprising if it was the CIA. Bush's biggest blunder in the whole Afghanistan mess was taking it away from George Tenet and the CIA and giving it to Rumsfeld's DoD.
As for it's effect on AQ, it doesn't seem like the dude's been very active. He's probably much better off to al Qada as a martyr than a retired spokesman.
it wasn't a CIA job, I can guarantee you that. it was a purely military operation. i also find it very interesting that this happened during obama's term, and not bush's.
According to FOX it was a SEAL team under command of the CIA, who'd done the intel over the last year. That qualifies as a CIA job.
Nothing about being happy this happened is wrong.
In a sense, I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with being happy about a significant milestone. However, if you don't seem to give a shit about the corresponding loss of life, then you tend to look just like the people everybody criticized who celebrated the milestone that was 911.
edit: ninja'd by ShadowWalker
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Who is ready for the next stage in all of this. The fact that Bin Laden's body is already buried opens up a can of worms for thousands of conspiracy theories.
Frankly, I don't see how anyone could think disposing of his body leaving no evidence was good good idea?
Am I wrong in saying there is no real evidence of his actual death?
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So I guess the rebel alliance shouldn't have celebrated when they blew up the death star? Just sayin'.
Weren't there millions of innocent civilians on board when the Death Star blew up?
Nothing about being happy this happened is wrong.
Can we just drag the guy through the streets of New York City, anyone can take a shot.
Or we could do a national tour so all of us can piss on him.
This alone sure doesn't sound like mere "celebrating a victory against terrorism everywhere in the world," and and this is from our own forums where people tend to be more reasonable.
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Who is ready for the next stage in all of this. The fact that Bin Laden's body is already buried opens up a can of worms for thousands of conspiracy theories.
Frankly, I don't see how anyone could think disposing of his body leaving no evidence was good good idea?
Am I wrong in saying there is no real evidence of his actual death?
I think the real issue here will be to see how relations between the US and Pakistan pan out. Will be very interested to see that.
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Who is ready for the next stage in all of this. The fact that Bin Laden's body is already buried opens up a can of worms for thousands of conspiracy theories.
Frankly, I don't see how anyone could think disposing of his body leaving no evidence was good good idea?
Am I wrong in saying there is no real evidence of his actual death?
Do you really think the US Government didn't keep any souveniers from the capture to disprove the doubters later on?
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Who is ready for the next stage in all of this. The fact that Bin Laden's body is already buried opens up a can of worms for thousands of conspiracy theories.
Frankly, I don't see how anyone could think disposing of his body leaving no evidence was good good idea?
Am I wrong in saying there is no real evidence of his actual death?
I think they will release pictures just like they did with Saddam Hussein. There's a necessity for the government to do so to quell all.
I think the real issue here will be to see how relations between the US and Pakistan pan out. Will be very interested to see that.
Amen to this.
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I'm just gonna post here to make sure that we're drawing a line between "being happy" and even "celebrating" and "publicly televised corpse mutilation."
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Who is ready for the next stage in all of this. The fact that Bin Laden's body is already buried opens up a can of worms for thousands of conspiracy theories.
Frankly, I don't see how anyone could think disposing of his body leaving no evidence was good good idea?
Am I wrong in saying there is no real evidence of his actual death?
They almost certainly filmed the funeral, plus you've got DNA and lots of gory pictures. But yeah, it will definitely lead to more conspiracies. I can understand wanting to honor Islamic traditions, but this is one of those cases where it really won't matter. His followers won't be assuaged by a tasteful funeral. That said, the people who want to believe this is a scam wouldn't be swayed by holding onto the body, either. I guess if there is no good solution, you just do the honorable thing.
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I'm just gonna post here to make sure that we're drawing a line between "being happy" and even "celebrating" and "publicly televised corpse mutilation."
Yep.
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Spoiler alert - Osama was really Bush the whole time.
/conspiracy
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All I can find is that it was a CIA job. No other details.
Not surprising if it was the CIA. Bush's biggest blunder in the whole Afghanistan mess was taking it away from George Tenet and the CIA and giving it to Rumsfeld's DoD.
As for it's effect on AQ, it doesn't seem like the dude's been very active. He's probably much better off to al Qada as a martyr than a retired spokesman.
it wasn't a CIA job, I can guarantee you that. it was a purely military operation. i also find it very interesting that this happened during obama's term, and not bush's.
According to FOX it was a SEAL team under command of the CIA, who'd done the intel over the last year. That qualifies as a CIA job.
Nothing about being happy this happened is wrong.
In a sense, I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with being happy about a significant milestone. However, if you don't seem to give a shit about the corresponding loss of life, then you tend to look just like the people everybody criticized who celebrated the milestone that was 911.
edit: ninja'd by ShadowWalker
Why the hell would I care about Osama Bin Laden's life? Why would I even feel any kind of remorse or sadness that the rat is dead. This logic makes no sense. 3,000 innocents and 1 fucking mass murderer dirtbag do not equate. Let it fucking go already.
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Who is ready for the next stage in all of this. The fact that Bin Laden's body is already buried opens up a can of worms for thousands of conspiracy theories.
Frankly, I don't see how anyone could think disposing of his body leaving no evidence was good good idea?
Am I wrong in saying there is no real evidence of his actual death?
Do you really think the US Government didn't keep any souveniers from the capture to disprove the doubters later on?
I am hoping they did.
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They're waiting for Trump to call "conspiracy" so they can release it a day later and give him a reason to pat himself on the back again ;D
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Who is ready for the next stage in all of this. The fact that Bin Laden's body is already buried opens up a can of worms for thousands of conspiracy theories.
Frankly, I don't see how anyone could think disposing of his body leaving no evidence was good good idea?
Am I wrong in saying there is no real evidence of his actual death?
Do you really think the US Government didn't keep any souveniers from the capture to disprove the doubters later on?
I am hoping they did.
They have pictures and DNA evidence. The fact that they announced his death on this kind of scale, 10 years later, means they got him without any doubt. If they wanted to fake this shit, they coulda done it years ago. This is the real deal. No doubt about it.
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All I can find is that it was a CIA job. No other details.
Not surprising if it was the CIA. Bush's biggest blunder in the whole Afghanistan mess was taking it away from George Tenet and the CIA and giving it to Rumsfeld's DoD.
As for it's effect on AQ, it doesn't seem like the dude's been very active. He's probably much better off to al Qada as a martyr than a retired spokesman.
it wasn't a CIA job, I can guarantee you that. it was a purely military operation. i also find it very interesting that this happened during obama's term, and not bush's.
According to FOX it was a SEAL team under command of the CIA, who'd done the intel over the last year. That qualifies as a CIA job.
Nothing about being happy this happened is wrong.
In a sense, I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with being happy about a significant milestone. However, if you don't seem to give a shit about the corresponding loss of life, then you tend to look just like the people everybody criticized who celebrated the milestone that was 911.
edit: ninja'd by ShadowWalker
Why the hell would I care about Osama Bin Laden's life? Why would I even feel any kind of remorse or sadness that the rat is dead. This logic makes no sense. 3,000 innocents and 1 fucking mass murderer dirtbag do not equate. Let it fucking go already.
Well I think the point is not that it's a thing of numbers so much as this:
So I guess the rebel alliance shouldn't have celebrated when they blew up the death star? Just sayin'.
Weren't there millions of innocent civilians on board when the Death Star blew up?
Nothing about being happy this happened is wrong.
Can we just drag the guy through the streets of New York City, anyone can take a shot.
Or we could do a national tour so all of us can piss on him.
This alone sure doesn't sound like mere "celebrating a victory against terrorism everywhere in the world," and and this is from our own forums where people tend to be more reasonable.
And this:
I'm just gonna post here to make sure that we're drawing a line between "being happy" and even "celebrating" and "publicly televised corpse mutilation."
Basically I think the issue is the fine line between celebrating that we've finally killed someone who is a menace to America and the world at large, and celebrating that finally we can have some peace of mind... versus a bloodthirsty parade that's no less dehumanizing of its perps than the one it's targeted at.
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Who is ready for the next stage in all of this. The fact that Bin Laden's body is already buried opens up a can of worms for thousands of conspiracy theories.
Frankly, I don't see how anyone could think disposing of his body leaving no evidence was good good idea?
Am I wrong in saying there is no real evidence of his actual death?
Do you really think the US Government didn't keep any souveniers from the capture to disprove the doubters later on?
I am hoping they did.
They have pictures and DNA evidence. The fact that they announced his death on this kind of scale, 10 years later, means they got him without any doubt. If they wanted to fake this shit, they coulda done it years ago. This is the real deal. No doubt about it.
I'm not saying I don't agree. I'm saying I hope they were smart enough to do things the right way in the end, that's all.
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Why the hell would I care about Osama Bin Laden's life? Why would I even feel any kind of remorse or sadness that the rat is dead. This logic makes no sense. 3,000 innocents and 1 fucking mass murderer dirtbag do not equate. Let it fucking go already.
I don't really give a shit one way or the other about this, so I don't have anything to "let fucking go."
I also try not to get into the business of comparing quantity or quality of human lives. In situations like this, I like to think about the Amish. When some asshole decided to kill a bunch of young girls because the cops showed up before he could screw them, the Amish community mourned him along with their children. From their standpoint, he didn't ask to be fucked up, he just was. And his family certainly didn't ask for things to turn out the way they did, they were victims as well. This is an amazing perspective. And in contrast to the majority of Americans who see the death of a badguy as a joyous occasion, quite honorable, IMO. Shame there aren't more people like them.
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Also, if our government is wrong about this, you'd likely already have seen a video of OBL reading the headlines from an American newspaper to make us look like idiots.
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I can understand wanting to honor Islamic traditions, but this is one of those cases where it really won't matter. His followers won't be assuaged by a tasteful funeral.
I don't think it was about his followers. A major component of what we do in the Middle East is trying to tell people through our actions as much as possible "We aren't at war with the Islamic religion or your people. And we aren't trying to dishonor you in a religious way."
What I sorta think we should have done was to coat his body in pig fat and alcohol and burned it. That would have sent a powerful message. But the downside of doing so is that you tell everyone we aren't directly fighting against that we're in the business of religious desecration. Quite a few Muslims in the Middle East probably would have thought "we don't think Osama is a great guy, but he didn't deserve THAT" and we would have looked bad.
Also, if our government is wrong about this, you'd likely already have seen a video of OBL reading the headlines from an American newspaper to make us look like idiots.
Yeah. A bunch of other terrorist leaders have already publicly said it happened. I think we actually did pull this off.
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Why the hell would I care about Osama Bin Laden's life? Why would I even feel any kind of remorse or sadness that the rat is dead. This logic makes no sense. 3,000 innocents and 1 fucking mass murderer dirtbag do not equate. Let it fucking go already.
I don't really give a shit one way or the other about this, so I don't have anything to "let fucking go."
I also try not to get into the business of comparing quantity or quality of human lives. In situations like this, I like to think about the Amish. When some asshole decided to kill a bunch of young girls because the cops showed up before he could screw them, the Amish community mourned him along with their children. From their standpoint, he didn't ask to be fucked up, he just was. And his family certainly didn't ask for things to turn out the way they did, they were victims as well. This is an amazing perspective. And in contrast to the majority of Americans who see the death of a badguy as a joyous occasion, quite honorable, IMO. Shame there aren't more people like them.
To each his own. It is an admirable quality to forgive on that level, but I myself am quite happy he is dead.
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It is absolutely without question that this was one was pulled off, seriously.
rumborak
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Oh, I'm not saying I'm not happy about all of this. I'm happy we finally got him. But is nationally publicized corpse violation going to help anyone get over the loss of loved ones?
For the 3000 or so family members who lost loved ones.....yes.
That's sad.
it's simple really. If you kill hundreds, thousands, or millions of innocent people you are no longer human, you have become a monster and monsters should be killed and celebrated when dead. Not very complicated at all to me.
Osama may be deranged or even insane, but he's still human. Dehumanizing humans hasnt ever been. a good thing. All it ever gave us was an excuse for genocide.
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Why the hell would I care about Osama Bin Laden's life? Why would I even feel any kind of remorse or sadness that the rat is dead. This logic makes no sense. 3,000 innocents and 1 fucking mass murderer dirtbag do not equate. Let it fucking go already.
I don't really give a shit one way or the other about this, so I don't have anything to "let fucking go."
I also try not to get into the business of comparing quantity or quality of human lives. In situations like this, I like to think about the Amish. When some asshole decided to kill a bunch of young girls because the cops showed up before he could screw them, the Amish community mourned him along with their children. From their standpoint, he didn't ask to be fucked up, he just was. And his family certainly didn't ask for things to turn out the way they did, they were victims as well. This is an amazing perspective. And in contrast to the majority of Americans who see the death of a badguy as a joyous occasion, quite honorable, IMO. Shame there aren't more people like them.
To each his own. It is an admirable quality to forgive on that level, but I myself am quite happy he is dead.
I hate to bring this up, but shouldn't the Christians be the first to point out the caveat of "sad we had to kill, but it was necessary"? It always seems to me the most blood-thirsty ones coincide with the religious ones. Can the NT just be switched off when convenient?
rumborak
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I'm glad they finally declared Osama dead but he was a figure head anyway. Zawahiri is the one they have to kill.
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On the way to work this morning, the radio played a clip of all the people outside the whitehouse last night breaking out into the national anthem. It brought a tear to my eye.
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For the 3000 or so family members who lost loved ones.....yes.
That's sad.
[/quote]
Really?! You don't think this at least brings closure to the family that lost loved ones on 9/11. They were murdered, I bet no one that lost someone that day feels like you.
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Why the hell would I care about Osama Bin Laden's life? Why would I even feel any kind of remorse or sadness that the rat is dead. This logic makes no sense. 3,000 innocents and 1 fucking mass murderer dirtbag do not equate. Let it fucking go already.
I don't really give a shit one way or the other about this, so I don't have anything to "let fucking go."
I also try not to get into the business of comparing quantity or quality of human lives. In situations like this, I like to think about the Amish. When some asshole decided to kill a bunch of young girls because the cops showed up before he could screw them, the Amish community mourned him along with their children. From their standpoint, he didn't ask to be fucked up, he just was. And his family certainly didn't ask for things to turn out the way they did, they were victims as well. This is an amazing perspective. And in contrast to the majority of Americans who see the death of a badguy as a joyous occasion, quite honorable, IMO. Shame there aren't more people like them.
I like that perspective. And yet, at the same time, when justice demands a certain outcome, such as the murderer forfeiting his life, there is also a "goodness" or "rightness" about that justice being carried out, IMO. Any loss of life, including that of the murderer, is regrettable. It is sad. It is sobering. And, yet, it is also satisfying because justice is being done. Honestly, I'm not sure exactly how I or anyone else is supposed to feel. I think plenty out there are attempting to grabble with it in their own way and acknowledge the comlexity of what has happened and the complexity of potential emotions and responses that one feels in response to it. I honestly don't know that there is a right way to feel or react, and if there is, I surely haven't figured it out. Lots more to say, but I guess I'll just leave it at that.
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I think the only really disturbing thing about it is the tar-and-feather mentality that seems to be following on its path. He was executed as a mass murderer should be and now it should be done.
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I think that the joy of America today is not just over the fact the Osama has been killed. I honestly think most Americans are just really happy with the fact that our military finally concluded a mission that many thought would never be finished. A mission that cost hundreds of lives and billions of dollars. I think it's a sigh of relief for most, knowing that our money and time wasn't pissed away, and a slight sense of secuirty has been reestablished.
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Was it worth all that?
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Was it worth all that?
It's hard to say, we don't know at this time. If us chasing him for the last decade prevented him from carrying out a mission to say detonate a suitcase nuke in NYC, then yes.
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For the 3000 or so family members who lost loved ones.....yes.
That's sad.
Really?! You don't think this at least brings closure to the family that lost loved ones on 9/11. They were murdered, I bet no one that lost someone that day feels like you.
[/quote]
You're right. I guess I just wish it didn't take more murders to make people feel better.
And since it's starting to sound like I'm sad that he's dead, I'll clarify. Boy, am I glad he's out of the way.
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Was it worth all that?
It's hard to say, we don't know at this time. If us chasing him for the last decade prevented him from carrying out a mission to say detonate a suitcase nuke in NYC, then yes.
+1
and barto, it was a military operation, despite the fact that the CIA had command.
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I know my viewpoint will mostly get glossed over here, but I figured I'd share it anyway.
As an Israeli, there is more than one person out there to blame all of the problems on for my people. It's not a faceless crowd as much as it is an entire organization of equally responsible murderers at times. And, often enough, those people get killed by Israeli troops. Their deaths are, on my part, never met with joy. They are seen as necessary casualties, yet casualties just the same. When a member of the Hamas is blown up, or a suicide bomber is killed before he is able to detonate, there is a sense of relief that those who wished to cause harm can no longer do so, but as human beings I find no joy in their deaths, despite their intentions or mindsets. I would prefer if none of them had to die, and I mourn the death of every Hamas or Al Aqsa or Islamic Jihad member, despite my viewing of their deaths as a necessary evil. It's an evil all the same, and evil is nothing to be celebrated.
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I know my viewpoint will mostly get glossed over here, but I figured I'd share it anyway.
As an Israeli, there is more than one person out there to blame all of the problems on for my people. It's not a faceless crowd as much as it is an entire organization of equally responsible murderers at times. And, often enough, those people get killed by Israeli troops. Their deaths are, on my part, never met with joy. They are seen as necessary casualties, yet casualties just the same. When a member of the Hamas is blown up, or a suicide bomber is killed before he is able to detonate, there is a sense of relief that those who wished to cause harm can no longer do so, but as human beings I find no joy in their deaths, despite their intentions or mindsets. I would prefer if none of them had to die, and I mourn the death of every Hamas or Al Aqsa or Islamic Jihad member, despite my viewing of their deaths as a necessary evil. It's an evil all the same, and evil is nothing to be celebrated.
This, not to mention that martyrdom has an unfortunate hydra-like effect attached to it.
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I know my viewpoint will mostly get glossed over here, but I figured I'd share it anyway.
As an Israeli, there is more than one person out there to blame all of the problems on for my people. It's not a faceless crowd as much as it is an entire organization of equally responsible murderers at times. And, often enough, those people get killed by Israeli troops. Their deaths are, on my part, never met with joy. They are seen as necessary casualties, yet casualties just the same. When a member of the Hamas is blown up, or a suicide bomber is killed before he is able to detonate, there is a sense of relief that those who wished to cause harm can no longer do so, but as human beings I find no joy in their deaths, despite their intentions or mindsets. I would prefer if none of them had to die, and I mourn the death of every Hamas or Al Aqsa or Islamic Jihad member, despite my viewing of their deaths as a necessary evil. It's an evil all the same, and evil is nothing to be celebrated.
WOW! best summation of a sensitive issue I have read in a long time!
thanks for saying what I wanted to so much better, adami
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I know my viewpoint will mostly get glossed over here, but I figured I'd share it anyway.
As an Israeli, there is more than one person out there to blame all of the problems on for my people. It's not a faceless crowd as much as it is an entire organization of equally responsible murderers at times. And, often enough, those people get killed by Israeli troops. Their deaths are, on my part, never met with joy. They are seen as necessary casualties, yet casualties just the same. When a member of the Hamas is blown up, or a suicide bomber is killed before he is able to detonate, there is a sense of relief that those who wished to cause harm can no longer do so, but as human beings I find no joy in their deaths, despite their intentions or mindsets. I would prefer if none of them had to die, and I mourn the death of every Hamas or Al Aqsa or Islamic Jihad member, despite my viewing of their deaths as a necessary evil. It's an evil all the same, and evil is nothing to be celebrated.
Good post. I agree with basically all of this. Sadly, as humans, it is impossible to live in peace. As much as it sucks, sometimes a death is required for the greater good. We have to choose between the lesser of two evils.
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For better or worse, war is population control. Otherwise we'd be doing a much better job at killing the planet than we already are.
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Was hitler "human?" physically yes but every thing that a human is supposed to be he was not. The same goes for usama and many other psychopaths in history. People are just happy he's dead. Nothing more than that. I think after all that has gone on sine 911 the people deserve one night of jubilation.
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Yeah, good post, Adami. :tup
But as far as people trying to say what the celebrations are "really" about, how can you? You can maybe say what you think they should be about, or what they are about for some people that you know. But beyond that, you can't say what they are about simply because there are lots of people celebrating lots of different things in all of this. You have people out there celebrating out of a sense of relief, some celebrating out of a send of justice, some out of a sense of revenge, some celebrating because they are racist and just glad another Arab is dead, some because they just think it is the right thing to do for any number of misplaced reasons. I really don't think anyone can say that people are celebrating for a particular reason, or even a particular set of reasons.
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I know my viewpoint will mostly get glossed over here, but I figured I'd share it anyway.
As an Israeli, there is more than one person out there to blame all of the problems on for my people. It's not a faceless crowd as much as it is an entire organization of equally responsible murderers at times. And, often enough, those people get killed by Israeli troops. Their deaths are, on my part, never met with joy. They are seen as necessary casualties, yet casualties just the same. When a member of the Hamas is blown up, or a suicide bomber is killed before he is able to detonate, there is a sense of relief that those who wished to cause harm can no longer do so, but as human beings I find no joy in their deaths, despite their intentions or mindsets. I would prefer if none of them had to die, and I mourn the death of every Hamas or Al Aqsa or Islamic Jihad member, despite my viewing of their deaths as a necessary evil. It's an evil all the same, and evil is nothing to be celebrated.
I respect your point of view, and I respect the person you have become on this board.
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Was hitler "human?" physically yes but every thing that a human is supposed to be he was not. The same goes for usama and many other psychopaths in history. People are just happy he's dead. Nothing more than that. I think after all that has gone on sine 911 the people deserve one night of jubilation.
Unfortunately I don't think that's true. Rather the opposite, I think he embodied everything that can be described as the dark side of humanity. Hitler singlehandedly demonstrated that humanity as a whole is capable of committing some truly evil things.
On that note, even though the loss of 3000 lives is a horrible thing, you can't ever hope to compare that to the hundred million or so that Hitler killed, either directly through his concentration camps and torture programs, or the war he started.
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Yeah, good post, Adami. :tup
But as far as people trying to say what the celebrations are "really" about, how can you? You can maybe say what you think they should be about, or what they are about for some people that you know. But beyond that, you can't say what they are about simply because there are lots of people celebrating lots of different things in all of this. You have people out there celebrating out of a sense of relief, some celebrating out of a send of justice, some out of a sense of revenge, some celebrating because they are racist and just glad another Arab is dead, some because they just think it is the right thing to do for any number of misplaced reasons. I really don't think anyone can say that people are celebrating for a particular reason, or even a particular set of reasons.
Very wise words, Bosk.
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Was hitler "human?" physically yes but every thing that a human is supposed to be he was not. The same goes for usama and many other psychopaths in history. People are just happy he's dead. Nothing more than that. I think after all that has gone on sine 911 the people deserve one night of jubilation.
Unfortunately I don't think that's true. Rather the opposite, I think he embodied everything that can be described as the dark side of humanity. Hitler singlehandedly demonstrated that humanity as a whole is capable of committing some truly evil things.
On that note, even though the loss of 3000 lives is a horrible thing, you can't ever hope to compare that to the hundred million or so that Hitler killed, either directly through his concentration camps and torture programs, or the war he started.
I'm not comparing the scope I'm comparing the insanity of the two. And if bin laden had has way a lot more people would have been dead over the years not just 3000 and he's responsible for more than just 911. In the words of the great Sam Jackson " yes he deserved to die and I hope he burns in he'll!"
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Yeah he's dead, doesn't matter. I won't wish death on anyone, and he'll get what's coming. But that's not something to celebrate.
I'll celebrate when we get our noses out of the Mid-East, which I don't see happening soon.
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Yeah he's dead, doesn't matter. I won't wish death on anyone, and he'll get what's coming. But that's not something to celebrate.
I'll celebrate when we get our noses out of the Mid-East, which I don't see happening soon.
It matters to a lot of people. A lot.
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Good lord there are so many people saying this isn't something to celebrate that I don't know what to say.
Of course this is something to celebrate. It's the first huge accomplishment directly related to 9/11 in a LONG time. Why wouldn't people celebrate it?!
And the victims of 9/11 families would like to talk to you if you think that celebrating his death is over-the-top
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I just heard it on the radio, so I'll try and find a link.
but apparently when the SEALS infiltrated the compound, it was corroborated by a member of the squad that Osama used a woman as a human sheild.
what a pathetic excuse for a human being.
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I just heard it on the radio, so I'll try and find a link.
but apparently when the SEALS infiltrated the compound, it was corroborated by a member of the squad that Osama used a woman as a human sheild.
what a pathetic excuse for a human being.
But we shouldnt celebrate killing him. He's "human" too. :rollin
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And the victims of 9/11 families would like to talk to you if you think that celebrating his death is over-the-top
Probably so, but this is the same logic some people use to defend the death penalty.
I mean if anybody deserves death, Osama probably does, but I personally don't feel right celebrating the death of ANYONE, no matter how despicable they were. It's just not something to take lightly, and I think people lose sight of it for many reasons.
-J
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I found the link.
directly from the BBC:
"The officials described the operation as a "surgical raid" and said three adult males, including Bin Laden's adult son. But, they added, a woman who was being used as a shield was also killed."
link - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13257330
it seriously pisses me off how much of a scumbag that man was.
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And the victims of 9/11 families would like to talk to you if you think that celebrating his death is over-the-top
Probably so, but this is the same logic some people use to defend the death penalty.
I mean if anybody deserves death, Osama probably does, but I personally don't feel right celebrating the death of ANYONE, no matter how despicable they were. It's just not something to take lightly, and I think people lose sight of it for many reasons.
-J
I personally think, Bosk said it best in regards to the whole celebration issue a few posts back.
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And the victims of 9/11 families would like to talk to you if you think that celebrating his death is over-the-top
Probably so, but this is the same logic some people use to defend the death penalty.
I mean if anybody deserves death, Osama probably does, but I personally don't feel right celebrating the death of ANYONE, no matter how despicable they were. It's just not something to take lightly, and I think people lose sight of it for many reasons.
-J
Difference in outlook i guess. I think there are WAY to many people in the world already and people just keep making more without thinking of the consequences of their actions. Have one kid? sure. Have two... ok if you can afford. Have 8? Die in a fire. Have 4 and you're on wealthfare... Kill yourself and do us all a favor. I'm married and would like to have a kid someday but i'm working and still in school trying to get my degree so i can make more money. Until that happens i can't afford a kid and especially not multiple ones. Also i think it's SICK how many orphans there are and yet people are having 6 natural kids and no one will adopt.
So yeah, so when a piece of shit murderous asshole dies it's better for everyone on multiple levels. I don't want the average person to die of course but people like him, kill em all. Now to prove that i am extremely liberal i think the people that are responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent iraqi lives, because of a blatantly perpetuated lie, should be brought to justice, just as Osama was.
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Good lord there are so many people saying this isn't something to celebrate that I don't know what to say.
Of course this is something to celebrate. It's the first huge accomplishment directly related to 9/11 in a LONG time. Why wouldn't people celebrate it?!
And the victims of 9/11 families would like to talk to you if you think that celebrating his death is over-the-top
Well, for one thing, his death came about 10 years too late. His end would've had more significance had it been carried out sooner by those who promised it. Secondly, his end doesn't mean the end of terrorism. His influence is still very much alive. Now, had they found a way to eliminate him and his followers in order to prevent 9/11, that would've been something worth celebrating. All I said when I found out was, "it's about goddamn time, not that it really means much anymore."
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What happens to his body once we are done with it?
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What happens to his body once we are done with it?
Dude, we are done with it. He was tossed in the ocean and has probably been eaten by sharks.
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I see this as a Hydra. Chop of the main head and more will take its place.
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Was hitler "human?" physically yes but every thing that a human is supposed to be he was not.
The worst part one can do is to dehumanize Hitler, because that removes him from the pool of humans he came from, and the realization that there is a small Hitler in all of us.
If you read anything about Hitler, he was actually exceedingly kind and courteous to the people around him. It is that exact dichotomy that should give us pause. Demonizing Hitler into this "superhuman" evil being might make you sleep better at night, but it also clears the field for the next one.
rumborak
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What happens to his body once we are done with it?
He was given a burial at sea in traditional Islamic fashion. At least the military had some class about it. It could have been a lot worse.
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I know my viewpoint will mostly get glossed over here, but I figured I'd share it anyway.
As an Israeli, there is more than one person out there to blame all of the problems on for my people. It's not a faceless crowd as much as it is an entire organization of equally responsible murderers at times. And, often enough, those people get killed by Israeli troops. Their deaths are, on my part, never met with joy. They are seen as necessary casualties, yet casualties just the same. When a member of the Hamas is blown up, or a suicide bomber is killed before he is able to detonate, there is a sense of relief that those who wished to cause harm can no longer do so, but as human beings I find no joy in their deaths, despite their intentions or mindsets. I would prefer if none of them had to die, and I mourn the death of every Hamas or Al Aqsa or Islamic Jihad member, despite my viewing of their deaths as a necessary evil. It's an evil all the same, and evil is nothing to be celebrated.
What a graceful way of putting it. Kudos Adami.
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(https://i.imgur.com/09fM7.jpg)
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What happens to his body once we are done with it?
He was given a burial at sea in traditional Islamic fashion. At least the military had some class about it. It could have been a lot worse.
I would have ground him up, mixed him with concrete, then make the sidewalk at the entry way to the freedom tower out of him.
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And the victims of 9/11 families would like to talk to you if you think that celebrating his death is over-the-top
Probably so, but this is the same logic some people use to defend the death penalty.
I mean if anybody deserves death, Osama probably does, but I personally don't feel right celebrating the death of ANYONE, no matter how despicable they were. It's just not something to take lightly, and I think people lose sight of it for many reasons.
-J
Difference in outlook i guess. I think there are WAY to many people in the world already and people just keep making more without thinking of the consequences of their actions. Have one kid? sure. Have two... ok if you can afford. Have 8? Die in a fire. Have 4 and you're on wealthfare... Kill yourself and do us all a favor. I'm married and would like to have a kid someday but i'm working and still in school trying to get my degree so i can make more money. Until that happens i can't afford a kid and especially not multiple ones. Also i think it's SICK how many orphans there are and yet people are having 6 natural kids and no one will adopt.
So yeah, so when a piece of shit murderous asshole dies it's better for everyone on multiple levels. I don't want the average person to die of course but people like him, kill em all. Now to prove that i am extremely liberal i think the people that are responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent iraqi lives, because of a blatantly perpetuated lie, should be brought to justice, just as Osama was.
Those are all real problems, but overpopulation is not a justification to get excited about someone's death IMO. I mean it's not like I'm devastated about the death of a fanatical mass murderer, but I do think that a life has an innate value.
I personally think, Bosk said it best in regards to the whole celebration issue a few posts back.
I agree, those are good points. But I'm not judging anybody individually, just thinking out loud.
-J
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What happens to his body once we are done with it?
He was given a burial at sea in traditional Islamic fashion. At least the military had some class about it. It could have been a lot worse.
yeah, i heard they were planning on doing something like that.
I think it was more for a PR reason though, not so much that they cared about him.
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Just to clarify again, I'm not against the celebration in general. That's fine.
But if you would murder a murderer, what makes you better than him? The fact the he murdered first?
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Just to clarify again, I'm not against the celebration in general. That's fine.
But if you would murder a murderer, what makes you better than him? The fact the he murdered first?
Implode, this isn't one on one frontier justice. It's the military's job to do so. Like I said before this one person is symbolizes much more than a guy that kills one on on. He's so much more.
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I just heard it on the radio, so I'll try and find a link.
but apparently when the SEALS infiltrated the compound, it was corroborated by a member of the squad that Osama used a woman as a human sheild.
what a pathetic excuse for a human being.
But we shouldnt celebrate killing him. He's "human" too. :rollin
Yes he was. And so was hitler. In fact it was hitler who so famously denounced others as less than human. We are all human, no person is beneath that. When we start declaring a person or persons as sub human, we enter a world without humanity.
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Just to clarify again, I'm not against the celebration in general. That's fine.
But if you would murder a murderer, what makes you better than him? The fact the he murdered first?
There is a difference between someone who has committed murder and someone who is a mass murderer.
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Just to clarify again, I'm not against the celebration in general. That's fine.
But if you would murder a murderer, what makes you better than him? The fact the he murdered first?
There is a difference between someone who has committed murder and someone who is a mass murderer.
Yes. But both are human beings.
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Just to clarify again, I'm not against the celebration in general. That's fine.
But if you would murder a murderer, what makes you better than him? The fact the he murdered first?
There is a difference between someone who has committed murder and someone who is a mass murderer.
But they are all murders nonetheless, are they not?
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And I don't have a problem with murders getting the chair.
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in a way, aren't we all murderers
of love
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Just to clarify again, I'm not against the celebration in general. That's fine.
But if you would murder a murderer, what makes you better than him? The fact the he murdered first?
nah i understand your point, and it makes sense.
at least to me - if someone murders a family member of mine, and I kill them in retaliation, those are two totally different things. If he did it first, it's murder. What I did was a justifiable retaliation. Same thing with Osama bin Moron.
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Just to clarify again, I'm not against the celebration in general. That's fine.
But if you would murder a murderer, what makes you better than him? The fact the he murdered first?
Implode, this isn't one on one frontier justice. It's the military's job to do so. Like I said before this one person is symbolizes much more than a guy that kills one on on. He's so much more.
Right. That's why the world is better off that he's now gone, and that's why celebration is expected. I understand that in war killing is unavoidable and expected. I'm not saying the military shouldn't have killed the man. This is a good victory.
Also, my last murder rebuddle was a general one, not specifically about Osama. At the same time, though, I wouldn't feel better saying, "Well he killed thousands, and I only killed one." You still killed, and I really don't want to get into quantifying the worth of specific human lives.
I'm just getting caught up in people wishing to desecrate the body or people who literally would've loved to shot him the head themselves. That's kind of scary.
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Osama Bin Laden was a coward, hiding out in a mansion/guarded-compound while the corrupted minds of impressionable Muslims concocted and carried out suicide attacks throughout the world.
Bin Laden was a hypocrite & deserves no respect other than as a human and as an extremely adept & resilient adversary to the U.S. & anyone else that stood in his way.
From my own studies in world theology, the Q'ran describes an "anti-christ" like figure who distorts the words of Mohammed & carries out false Jihad. I think OBL is the closest the world has ever come to this person described in Islam's most holy book.
As I have said in an earlier page in this thread, psychological victories are just as devastating to the enemy & uplifting to the morale & resolve of the other side (in this case, the U.S.)
/ramble
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Just to clarify again, I'm not against the celebration in general. That's fine.
But if you would murder a murderer, what makes you better than him? The fact the he murdered first?
Implode, this isn't one on one frontier justice. It's the military's job to do so. Like I said before this one person is symbolizes much more than a guy that kills one on on. He's so much more.
Right. That's why the world is better off that he's now gone, and that's why celebration is expected. I understand that in war killing is unavoidable and expected. I'm not saying the military shouldn't have killed the man. This is a good victory.
Also, my last murder rebuddle was a general one, not specifically about Osama. At the same time, though, I wouldn't feel better saying, "Well he killed thousands, and I only killed one." You still killed, and I really don't want to get into quantifying the worth of specific human lives.
I'm just getting caught up in people wishing to desecrate the body or people who literally would've loved to shot him the head themselves. That's kind of scary.
yeah, you definitely made a good point in your original post. I think people are misconstruing that with sympathy for Osama, which totally isn't the case.
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And I don't have a problem with murders getting the chair.
So should the marine/soldier/whatever that killed Osama bin Laden get the chair?
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Also, my last murder rebuddle was a general one, not specifically about Osama. At the same time, though, I wouldn't feel better saying, "Well he killed thousands, and I only killed one." You still killed, and I really don't want to get into quantifying the worth of specific human lives.
I'm just getting caught up in people wishing to desecrate the body or people who literally would've loved to shot him the head themselves. That's kind of scary.
Yeah, I think the more appropriate response to your post isn't how many people were killed in each scenario, but rather the fact that not all killing is murder. Bin Laden was not murdered.
And I don't have a problem with murders getting the chair.
So should the marine/soldier/whatever that killed Osama bin Laden get the chair?
No. Bin Laden was not murdered.
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Care to elaborate?
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No what bosk said.
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What's sorta bothering me about all this now is just how much we realize Osama was in the back of our minds all these years. This is the guy that basically started this whole thing, masterminded it all. Yet, did it really take 100,000+ troops in the middle east to find and kill this guy? Is that why they're REALLY over there? No. A tiny seals team with coordinated intelligence did what we supposedly spent 10 years, thousands of lives, and trillions of dollars trying to achieve. So are any troops coming home now? Of course not - because there's other "interests". I know everybody's saying, "but the fight isn't over - we have to stop Al Qaeda!" But honestly, is that really gonna be achieved by occupying a couple select Islamic nations, much less will it even hinder rather than motivate their growth? Al Qaeda is in DOZENS of countries; they're not confined to borders.
I'm totally rambling on, but killing this guy should have been our main objective all along and now it's just being treated like a backdrop, as if "the fight isn't over." Will it ever be? What are even the objectives now?
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Bin Laden was exterminated. You don't call it murder when you kill a cock roach.
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Hell hath frozen over: https://tumblr.thedailywh.at/post/5136524655/frozen-hell-of-the-day-on-his-show-today-rush (https://tumblr.thedailywh.at/post/5136524655/frozen-hell-of-the-day-on-his-show-today-rush)
Unity is something America has been lacking for quite some time. It feels great to be American today.
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Bin Laden was exterminated. You don't call it murder when you kill a cock roach.
This saddens me.
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Yeah he's dead, doesn't matter. I won't wish death on anyone, and he'll get what's coming. But that's not something to celebrate.
I'll celebrate when we get our noses out of the Mid-East, which I don't see happening soon.
I agree. At this point, it is isn't much more than an emotional feel good moment for some with vengeful desire. There is nothing strategic about it.
And didn't the U.S., the CIA in particular, create the monster to begin with?
The whole reason we are having these problems over there is because of our continuous medling with mid-eastern affairs. Bring the troops home, for the love of life.
How many have died in this pointless "war on terror?" More than were killed at the world trade center.
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Care to elaborate?
Okay. As I said, by definition:
not all killing is murder.
Murder is "the unlawful killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought."
The execution of Bin Laden was neither unlawful or done with malice. (nor was it unjustified, for that matter)
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The apparent lack of care for humanity in these threads is kind of messed up.
He's wasn't a good guy by any means, and he certainly had a lot to account for, but he was a human being just like you and me.
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Care to elaborate?
Okay. As I said, by definition:
not all killing is murder.
Murder is "the unlawful killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought."
The execution of Bin Laden was neither unlawful or done with malice. (nor was it unjustified, for that matter)
So because the USA said it was OK to kill him, it isn't murder?
It makes sense politically but I'd like to think that there are higher standards that humans as a species should at least respect.
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So because the USA said it was OK to kill him, it isn't murder?
No. Because (1) he committed capital crimes and (2) was waging war against the USA, it isn't murder. The USA merely "saying it is okay" has nothing to do with it.
It makes sense politically but I'd like to think that there are higher standards that humans as a species should at least respect.
Care to elaborate?
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The apparent lack of care for humanity in these threads is kind of messed up.
He's wasn't a good guy by any means, and he certainly had a lot to account for, but he was a human being just like you and me.
And the apparent lack of common sense among some people in this thread is also kind of messed up.
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Bin Laden was exterminated. You don't call it murder when you kill a cock roach.
You need to knock that off. I give quite a bit of leeway for expressing different viewpoints in this forum, but you appear to be simply trying to fan the flames. You need to tone it down. That goes for your most recent post as well.
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The "he wasn't a good guy by any means" is so offensive i don't even know where to start. Ok here i'll try...
He was a FUCKING MASS MURDERING TERRORIST, who wanted nothing mare than to see millions of innocent humans dead. This is why they have been trying to obtain nuclear weaponry for a long time now. To kill millions of people.
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It makes sense politically but I'd like to think that there are higher standards that humans as a species should at least respect.
Care to elaborate?
I'd like to believe that there are at least some objective moral standards in this world. I would hope that not killing each other would be one of them.
As it stands, Osama's death is seen as justified to Americans, but as murder to people in Al Qaeda. In a relative world, neither side is wrong, and both are right.
As a Christian, wouldn't you be inclined to agree with me?
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Bin Laden was exterminated. You don't call it murder when you kill a cock roach.
You need to knock that off. I give quite a bit of leeway for expressing different viewpoints in this forum, but you appear to be simply trying to fan the flames. You need to tone it down. That goes for your most recent post as well.
Not trying to flame, just trying to make a point like everyone else in here.
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The "he wasn't a good guy by any means" is so offensive i don't even know where to start. Ok here i'll try...
He was a FUCKING MASS MURDERING TERRORIST, who wanted nothing mare than to see millions of innocent humans dead. This is why they have been trying to obtain nuclear weaponry for a long time now. To kill millions of people.
All valid points, but as in real life, on this forum it isn't just what you say, but how you say it. It is the latter point that you are failing at. But I'm not going to ask you again to tone it down.
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The "he wasn't a good guy by any means" is so offensive i don't even know where to start. Ok here i'll try...
He was a FUCKING MASS MURDERING TERRORIST, who wanted nothing mare than to see millions of innocent humans dead. This is why they have been trying to obtain nuclear weaponry for a long time now. To kill millions of people. Fuck him, and fuck everyone who tries to act like they are above everyone else because it's "wrong" to be happy about his death.
I don't even think you have his intentions down correctly. From my understanding, he had a distorted view of Islam and believed that it was his holy duty to kill (or lead to the killing) of non-Muslims. In his view, we were guilty.
Again, I bring up the relativist argument. If we don't hold ourselves to some sort of higher morality that trumps our own government, are we not on the same level as Osama?
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The "he wasn't a good guy by any means" is so offensive i don't even know where to start. Ok here i'll try...
He was a FUCKING MASS MURDERING TERRORIST, who wanted nothing mare than to see millions of innocent humans dead. This is why they have been trying to obtain nuclear weaponry for a long time now. To kill millions of people.
Ah, it seems you edited the insults out before I could quote you properly.
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The "he wasn't a good guy by any means" is so offensive i don't even know where to start. Ok here i'll try...
He was a FUCKING MASS MURDERING TERRORIST, who wanted nothing mare than to see millions of innocent humans dead. This is why they have been trying to obtain nuclear weaponry for a long time now. To kill millions of people. Fuck him, and fuck everyone who tries to act like they are above everyone else because it's "wrong" to be happy about his death.
I don't even think you have his intentions down correctly. From my understanding, he had a distorted view of Islam and believed that it was his holy duty to kill (or lead to the killing) of non-Muslims. In his view, we were guilty.
Again, I bring up the relativist argument. If we don't hold ourselves to some sort of higher morality that trumps our own government, are we not on the same level as Osama?
I never said that. I think we should hold ourselves more accountable than anyone. I disagree with the majority of the policies of this country.
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It makes sense politically but I'd like to think that there are higher standards that humans as a species should at least respect.
Care to elaborate?
I'd like to believe that there are at least some objective moral standards in this world. I would hope that not killing each other would be one of them.
As it stands, Osama's death is seen as justified to Americans, but as murder to people in Al Qaeda. In a relative world, neither side is wrong, and both are right.
As a Christian, wouldn't you be inclined to agree with me?
Nope.
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It makes sense politically but I'd like to think that there are higher standards that humans as a species should at least respect.
Care to elaborate?
I'd like to believe that there are at least some objective moral standards in this world. I would hope that not killing each other would be one of them.
As it stands, Osama's death is seen as justified to Americans, but as murder to people in Al Qaeda. In a relative world, neither side is wrong, and both are right.
As a Christian, wouldn't you be inclined to agree with me?
Agree about what part of your post?
That we should have a higher moral standard than the minimum our government sets out? Yes.
That we shouldn't kill each other? Mostly. I would agree that we shouldn't murder. But there are instances where killing is not murder and is justified.
That we look at Bin Laden's death differently than al quaeda? Without question.
That both sides are right? No, not at all.
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The "he wasn't a good guy by any means" is so offensive i don't even know where to start. Ok here i'll try...
He was a FUCKING MASS MURDERING TERRORIST, who wanted nothing mare than to see millions of innocent humans dead. This is why they have been trying to obtain nuclear weaponry for a long time now. To kill millions of people. Fuck him, and fuck everyone who tries to act like they are above everyone else because it's "wrong" to be happy about his death.
I don't even think you have his intentions down correctly. From my understanding, he had a distorted view of Islam and believed that it was his holy duty to kill (or lead to the killing) of non-Muslims. In his view, we were guilty.
Again, I bring up the relativist argument. If we don't hold ourselves to some sort of higher morality that trumps our own government, are we not on the same level as Osama?
Trust me i know quite a bit about this history of Osama Bin Laden and Al qaeda, going back to when the United States armed the taliban to fight off the soviets and kept US troops in Saudia Arabia when clearly some members of the Saudi royal family were against it for religious reasons like Osama.
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The "he wasn't a good guy by any means" is so offensive i don't even know where to start. Ok here i'll try...
He was a FUCKING MASS MURDERING TERRORIST, who wanted nothing mare than to see millions of innocent humans dead. This is why they have been trying to obtain nuclear weaponry for a long time now. To kill millions of people.
Ah, it seems you edited the insults out before I could quote you properly.
was an emotional over reaction on my part which i realized once reading it again.
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The "he wasn't a good guy by any means" is so offensive i don't even know where to start. Ok here i'll try...
He was a FUCKING MASS MURDERING TERRORIST, who wanted nothing mare than to see millions of innocent humans dead. This is why they have been trying to obtain nuclear weaponry for a long time now. To kill millions of people.
Ah, it seems you edited the insults out before I could quote you properly.
was an emotional over reaction on my part which i realized once reading it again.
That's ok, I understand. :)
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Agree about what part of your post?
That we should have a higher moral standard than the minimum our government sets out? Yes.
That we shouldn't kill each other? Mostly. I would agree that we shouldn't murder. But there are instances where killing is not murder and is justified.
That we look at Bin Laden's death differently than al quaeda? Without question.
That both sides are right? No, not at all.
Sorry if my post was confusing. I meant that as a Christian you should agree that we should have a higher moral standard than the government sets out.
I agree with you on all your other points except what you said about not killing each other. I'm not entirely sure that there are instances where humans can be completely justified in killing another human.
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The apparent lack of care for humanity in these threads is kind of messed up.
He's wasn't a good guy by any means, and he certainly had a lot to account for, but he was a human being just like you and me.
He was not a human just like me. We may bleed the same, but we are vastly different in how we treat other human beings who may have a different mindset.
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The apparent lack of care for humanity in these threads is kind of messed up.
He's wasn't a good guy by any means, and he certainly had a lot to account for, but he was a human being just like you and me.
He was not a human just like me. We may bleed the same, but we are vastly different in how we treat other human beings who may have a different mindset.
I disagree. We all have our evil sides.
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The apparent lack of care for humanity in these threads is kind of messed up.
He's wasn't a good guy by any means, and he certainly had a lot to account for, but he was a human being just like you and me.
He was not a human just like me. We may bleed the same, but we are vastly different in how we treat other human beings who may have a different mindset.
I am not saying you feel this way, but the people that is aimed at are the people who find joy in his death and suffering. Those who find joy in the death and suffering and humiliation of others can be said to not be human beings like me. The difference, you (and by that I mean the people who we're aiming this at) feel justified in how you feel, while having the belief that terrorists have no justification other than a desire to murder anyone. Which, is not true.
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I feel no compassion, remorse, or sadness for Bin Laden's death. Why should I? The man put together several attacks on American soil that lead to the deaths of thousands. It feels like for the past 10 years nothing has gone right, we've only become more divided. I see no problem in celebrating the end of an era with that man in charge of Al Queda. It gives closure to me and those affected by 9/11.
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I feel no compassion, remorse, or sadness for Bin Laden's death. Why should I? The man put together several attacks on American soil that lead to the deaths of thousands. It feels like for the past 10 years nothing has gone right, we've only become more divided. I see no problem in celebrating the end of an era with that man in charge of Al Queda. It gives closure to me and those affected by 9/11.
You find that the closure isn't as permanent as you may think.
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I think there's been two casualties in this hunt for bin Laden: Obviously bin Laden himself, but also any pretense the US may have ever had that it is trying to promote rule of law and due process around the world. In the end, all that stuff is brushed aside without a tear if the ends seem favorable enough.
rumborak
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The apparent lack of care for humanity in these threads is kind of messed up.
He's wasn't a good guy by any means, and he certainly had a lot to account for, but he was a human being just like you and me.
He was not a human just like me. We may bleed the same, but we are vastly different in how we treat other human beings who may have a different mindset.
I am not saying you feel this way, but the people that is aimed at are the people who find joy in his death and suffering. Those who find joy in the death and suffering and humiliation of others can be said to not be human beings like me. The difference, you (and by that I mean the people who we're aiming this at) feel justified in how you feel, while having the belief that terrorists have no justification other than a desire to murder anyone. Which, is not true.
His justifications are irrelevant. That's the point i am some others are making i believe. You can have a justification to do almost anything , it doesn't make it right. Just as the US justifications for illegitimate wars don't make them right either.
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You find that the closure isn't as permanent as you may think.
This. In a week's time we'll all be back to caring about Donald Trump again.
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The apparent lack of care for humanity in these threads is kind of messed up.
He's wasn't a good guy by any means, and he certainly had a lot to account for, but he was a human being just like you and me.
He was not a human just like me. We may bleed the same, but we are vastly different in how we treat other human beings who may have a different mindset.
I am not saying you feel this way, but the people that is aimed at are the people who find joy in his death and suffering. Those who find joy in the death and suffering and humiliation of others can be said to not be human beings like me. The difference, you (and by that I mean the people who we're aiming this at) feel justified in how you feel, while having the belief that terrorists have no justification other than a desire to murder anyone. Which, is not true.
His justifications are irrelevant. That's the point i am some others are making i believe. You can have a justification to do almost anything , it doesn't make it right.
So your justification for what you want is irrelevant?
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The apparent lack of care for humanity in these threads is kind of messed up.
He's wasn't a good guy by any means, and he certainly had a lot to account for, but he was a human being just like you and me.
He was not a human just like me. We may bleed the same, but we are vastly different in how we treat other human beings who may have a different mindset.
I am not saying you feel this way, but the people that is aimed at are the people who find joy in his death and suffering. Those who find joy in the death and suffering and humiliation of others can be said to not be human beings like me. The difference, you (and by that I mean the people who we're aiming this at) feel justified in how you feel, while having the belief that terrorists have no justification other than a desire to murder anyone. Which, is not true.
His justifications are irrelevant. That's the point i am some others are making i believe. You can have a justification to do almost anything , it doesn't make it right.
Doesn't that answer to the point about how we shouldn't kill any other humans- including Osama?
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The apparent lack of care for humanity in these threads is kind of messed up.
He's wasn't a good guy by any means, and he certainly had a lot to account for, but he was a human being just like you and me.
He was not a human just like me. We may bleed the same, but we are vastly different in how we treat other human beings who may have a different mindset.
I am not saying you feel this way, but the people that is aimed at are the people who find joy in his death and suffering. Those who find joy in the death and suffering and humiliation of others can be said to not be human beings like me. The difference, you (and by that I mean the people who we're aiming this at) feel justified in how you feel, while having the belief that terrorists have no justification other than a desire to murder anyone. Which, is not true.
His justifications are irrelevant. That's the point i am some others are making i believe. You can have a justification to do almost anything , it doesn't make it right.
Doesn't that answer to the point about how we shouldn't kill any other humans- including Osama?
No mass murdering people is wrong no matter WHAT side you are on. That's my point.
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A link I think you guys will be interested in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256956
Almost every major nation in the world (Including Pakistan) has identified the death of Osama as a step towards peace, which I agree with.
Very infrequently do we see the rest of the world agreeing with us yanks on something, so obviously this is something significant. I just hope that this is a first step towards peace for us here in the states, as I for one am tired of conflict.
I just want to remind you guys that it is NOT islam that is responsible, it is the TERRORISTS that are. some people seem to be forgetting that.
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A link I think you guys will be interested in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256956
Almost every major nation in the world (Including Pakistan) has identified the death of Osama as a step towards peace, which I agree with.
Very infrequently do we see the rest of the world agreeing with us yanks on something, so obviously this is something significant. I just hope that this is a first step towards peace for us here in the states, as I for one am tired of conflict.
I just want to remind you guys that it is NOT islam that is responsible, it is the TERRORISTS that are. some people seem to be forgetting that.
No but religion gives crazy people an excuse to do horrible things. Always has. The sane people aren't terrorists of course, just like sane people aren't blowing up clinics and protesting soldiers funerals.
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A link I think you guys will be interested in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256956
Almost every major nation in the world (Including Pakistan) has identified the death of Osama as a step towards peace, which I agree with.
Very infrequently do we see the rest of the world agreeing with us yanks on something, so obviously this is something significant. I just hope that this is a first step towards peace for us here in the states, as I for one am tired of conflict.
I just want to remind you guys that it is NOT islam that is responsible, it is the TERRORISTS that are. some people seem to be forgetting that.
Good post. I would also add that by letting our bloodthirsty revenge get the better of us (as manifested in the surge of jingoism in this country- not the removal of Osama) we have indeed let the terrorists win.
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A link I think you guys will be interested in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256956
Almost every major nation in the world (Including Pakistan) has identified the death of Osama as a step towards peace, which I agree with.
Very infrequently do we see the rest of the world agreeing with us yanks on something, so obviously this is something significant. I just hope that this is a first step towards peace for us here in the states, as I for one am tired of conflict.
I just want to remind you guys that it is NOT islam that is responsible, it is the TERRORISTS that are. some people seem to be forgetting that.
No but religion gives crazy people an excuse to do horrible things. Always has. The sane people aren't terrorists of course, just like sane people aren't blowing up clinics and protesting soldiers funerals.
"crazy" people, as you call them, will always have an excuse to do horrible things, religion just happens to be there.
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Good post. I would also add that by letting our bloodthirsty revenge get the better of us (as manifested in the surge of jingoism in this country- not the removal of Osama) we have indeed let the terrorists win.
In the abstract, I agree with that. However, as applied to the present situation, I don't believe that everybody who believes Bin Laden's death is a good thing are ncessarily coming from a perspective of bloodthirsty revenge. In fact, I don't think that most are coming from that perspective at all.
Also, we should be careful not to confuse nationalism or patriotism with jingoism. The aren't necessarily the same thing.
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Adami. Dead on. Religion is just one of many crutches that delusional people contort for their own ambition.
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Which is exactly why I'm planning on starting my own cult some day. I still just have to find a cool concept to base it around.
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A link I think you guys will be interested in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256956
Almost every major nation in the world (Including Pakistan) has identified the death of Osama as a step towards peace, which I agree with.
Very infrequently do we see the rest of the world agreeing with us yanks on something, so obviously this is something significant. I just hope that this is a first step towards peace for us here in the states, as I for one am tired of conflict.
I just want to remind you guys that it is NOT islam that is responsible, it is the TERRORISTS that are. some people seem to be forgetting that.
No but religion gives crazy people an excuse to do horrible things. Always has. The sane people aren't terrorists of course, just like sane people aren't blowing up clinics and protesting soldiers funerals.
"crazy" people, as you call them, will always have an excuse to do horrible things, religion just happens to be there.
True but the stuff that's in the religious books they study can be just as insane as they are, which leads to DOUBLE INSANITY. (https://www.gamingblog.org/images/double-dragon_52.jpg)
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Which is exactly why I'm planning on starting my own cult some day. I still just have to find a cool concept to base it around.
Beartrucci?
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Which is exactly why I'm planning on starting my own cult some day. I still just have to find a cool concept to base it around.
Don't you already run one. *giggles*
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Good post. I would also add that by letting our bloodthirsty revenge get the better of us (as manifested in the surge of jingoism in this country- not the removal of Osama) we have indeed let the terrorists win.
In the abstract, I agree with that. However, as applied to the present situation, I don't believe that everybody who believes Bin Laden's death is a good thing are ncessarily coming from a perspective of bloodthirsty revenge. In fact, I don't think that most are coming from that perspective at all.
Also, we should be careful not to confuse nationalism or patriotism with jingoism. The aren't necessarily the same thing.
I wasn't trying to say that everyone who is happy at Osama's death is happy due to bloodthirsty revenge. I should have elaborated a bit more.
As far as jingoism, I think that those that ARE jubilant over Osama's death due to blood thirst are also those exhibiting jingoism.
I should reiterate that at no point in my posts am I trying to convey that people that are relieved are at fault. I'm merely making observations about the more vocal Americans out there.
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this was posted by sigz in the other thread but it's so amazing that i'm porting it here cause it looks like the other thread is dead.
https://www.traffictetris.com/stupid-things-that-people-say-following-osama-bin-ladens-death/
WOW. But i laughed the hardest at this one. OMG..
(https://traffictetris.com/wp-content/images/2011/01/124/30.jpg)
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Man, class has made me really behind in this thread.
Also, my last murder rebuddle was a general one, not specifically about Osama. At the same time, though, I wouldn't feel better saying, "Well he killed thousands, and I only killed one." You still killed, and I really don't want to get into quantifying the worth of specific human lives.
I'm just getting caught up in people wishing to desecrate the body or people who literally would've loved to shot him the head themselves. That's kind of scary.
Yeah, I think the more appropriate response to your post isn't how many people were killed in each scenario, but rather the fact that not all killing is murder. Bin Laden was not murdered.
I agree. I'm not condemning the person who shot Osama, but to me, if someone wants to kill someone for malicious revenge, then it's pretty close to murder.
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Which is exactly why I'm planning on starting my own cult some day. I still just have to find a cool concept to base it around.
Don't you already run one. *giggles*
Nice.
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Ok this is for the people who disagree with me... This is what a good friend of mine put on facebook. While i don't entirely agree i do think what he wrote is very intelligent and makes sense.
We think ourselves so beyond the Romans in the Colosseum but we offer the fruits of our labor and the children of our nation's poor for these wars. We are animals, hubris-filled hypocrites of the most fearful kind. I don't know how to feel good about death and destruction. It seems we disrespect ourselves by celebrating it.
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We think ourselves so beyond the Romans in the Colosseum but we offer the fruits of our labor and the children of our nation's poor for these wars. We are animals, hubris-filled hypocrites of the most fearful kind. I don't know how to feel good about death and destruction. It seems we disrespect ourselves by celebrating it.
I really, really admire that post.
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So far, I think this thread is mostly going okay. But I would highly recommend that before posting any further, that a few of you take a look at the last thing I posted in that thread and think about it before hitting the "post" button over here.
EDIT: Well, okay, not the last post, because that's just silly. But the one before that.
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TJ's friend has a good point, and is how I feel about this.
He was the leader of a cult, whom used the teachings of the Koran to justify his killings, In the name of god.
Way back before columbus, The conquistadors tried to kill all us Native Americans, by trying to force us to be like them in every way. They used the bible to justify that violence...Its sad how not many people from USA don't know that.
That's why I feel Osama was a rebel who felt his land was becoming something it wasn't meant to be. Except they messed with the wrong peoples. The difference is being human and forgiving, the people not the man.
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TJ's friend has a good point, and is how I feel about this.
He was the leader of a cult, whom used the teachings of the Koran to justify his killings, In the name of god.
Way back before columbus, The conquistadors tried to kill all us Native Americans, by trying to force us to be like them in every way. They used the bible to justify that violence...Its sad how not many people from USA don't know that.
That's why I feel Osama was a rebel who felt his land was becoming something it wasn't meant to be. Except they messed with the wrong peoples. The difference is being human and forgiving, the people not the man.
like I said earlier to Implode, you make good points.
but to me, it sounds like you are almost defending Osama, a man who gave the word to kill 3,000 innocent people, which in turn started war that killed even more people. to me, there is no justification to that, religious or not.
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There's another side to this situation than the American one is pretty much what he's getting at I think, ricky.
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TJ's friend has a good point, and is how I feel about this.
He was the leader of a cult, whom used the teachings of the Koran to justify his killings, In the name of god.
Way back before columbus, The conquistadors tried to kill all us Native Americans, by trying to force us to be like them in every way. They used the bible to justify that violence...Its sad how not many people from USA don't know that.
That's why I feel Osama was a rebel who felt his land was becoming something it wasn't meant to be. Except they messed with the wrong peoples. The difference is being human and forgiving, the people not the man.
like I said earlier to Implode, you make good points.
edit - quote myself for the win.
try again next time sonata.
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Yes Sonata that's right. If you want to truly understand, you have to look at everything about this situation, Which is a lot and is a pain to type.
Also, which is why I'm not celebrating because they might see it as something offensive and makes it scary.
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TJ's friend has a good point, and is how I feel about this.
He was the leader of a cult, whom used the teachings of the Koran to justify his killings, In the name of god.
Way back before columbus, The conquistadors tried to kill all us Native Americans, by trying to force us to be like them in every way. They used the bible to justify that violence...Its sad how not many people from USA don't know that.
That's why I feel Osama was a rebel who felt his land was becoming something it wasn't meant to be. Except they messed with the wrong peoples. The difference is being human and forgiving, the people not the man.
like I said earlier to Implode, you make good points.
edit - quote myself for the win.
try again next time sonata.
Whatever dude
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Yes Sonata that's right. If you want to truly understand, you have to look at everything about this situation, Which is a lot and is a pain to type.
Also, which is why I'm not celebrating because they might see it as something offensive and makes it scary.
ok, look. not to push the point, or spam. I understood what sonata said, and it made sense from a philosophical standpoint. Im just saying what I believe.
Osama was bad. He killed 3,000 innocent american lives. to try to interpret it as more than what it was is absolute nonsense, which is what sonata is trying to do. to say "he sees it a different way" is crap to me, because no matter what he believed in, he still did what he did, and what he did was wrong.
edit - sorry sonata, i meant the point ben jamin made, not yours.
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Yes Sonata that's right. If you want to truly understand, you have to look at everything about this situation, Which is a lot and is a pain to type.
Also, which is why I'm not celebrating because they might see it as something offensive and makes it scary.
ok, look. not to push the point, or spam. I understood what sonata said, and it made sense from a philosophical standpoint. Im just saying what I believe.
Osama was bad. He killed 3,000 innocent american lives. to try to interpret it as more than what it was is absolute nonsense, which is what sonata is trying to do. to say "he sees it a different way" is crap to me, because no matter what he believed in, he still did what he did, and what he did was wrong.
Alright, but you're using your beliefs as an excuse for perpetuating ignorance to another side of the situation.
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Stop apologizing for a mass murderer and enemy to the US. He declared war on us. He made himself our enemy. He got exactly what he was asking for.
The US does not target civilians. Terrorists (Osama) was ALL about killing civilians. Innocent people. People having nothing to do with his beef with America.
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I'm not apologizing for anyone, jesus christ what is going on here
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Yes Sonata that's right. If you want to truly understand, you have to look at everything about this situation, Which is a lot and is a pain to type.
Also, which is why I'm not celebrating because they might see it as something offensive and makes it scary.
ok, look. not to push the point, or spam. I understood what sonata said, and it made sense from a philosophical standpoint. Im just saying what I believe.
Osama was bad. He killed 3,000 innocent american lives. to try to interpret it as more than what it was is absolute nonsense, which is what sonata is trying to do. to say "he sees it a different way" is crap to me, because no matter what he believed in, he still did what he did, and what he did was wrong.
Alright, but you're using your beliefs as an excuse for perpetuating ignorance to another side of the situation.
No, I totally understand what you said. read the above edit (which was before you posted your response).
I just want to say that I have no belief. to kill innocent people is wrong, that isn't a belief. and I wasn't perpetuating ignorance, I was just giving my own point of view.
i kept this thread appropriate, with valid points in a polite way. you are the one that labeled it as "ignorance."
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People angry in dis bitch.
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As Bosk has already pointed out in this thread (by referencing the last one), everyone needs to chilllllll out, and think about their post before they hit the "post" button.
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Yeah, I understand Osama was an evil man. What I'm trying to get at I guess is he didn't act alone.
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Some of these recent posts remind me of a show I saw on History International (I think it was) about the interrogation of Saddam Hussein. Yeah, I know it seems a little off topic, but it does have a lot to do with the way some feel about this thread.
Anyway, the interrogator was appointed by the FBI because he had a lot of experience growing up in the middle east (Lebanon). Yeah, he was born in Lebanon and later moved to the U.S. and became involved in law enforcement and later, the FBI. He and Saddam didn't like each other at first (for obvious reasons) but as the interrogation went on, they began to bond and the things that make us all similar began to surface and a certain trust started forming between them. Some days they looked forward to talking and other days they didn't. They played mind games with each other and it got quite tense at times. But, when it came right down to it, they both ended up enjoying each others company.
At the end of the day, yeah, Saddam was still a war criminal and did horribly inhumane things to people, but he was also a person that could be related to, no matter how misguided. The interrogator did attend Saddam's execution but took absolutely no pleasure in it whatsoever and I can see why. He even felt sorry for Saddam on some level which may be hard for some people to believe. It just goes to show that our perceptions of other people are really not 100% reality, even though their actions may tell a different story.
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Stop apologizing for a mass murderer and enemy to the US. He declared war on us. He made himself our enemy. He got exactly what he was asking for.
The US does not target civilians. Terrorists (Osama) was ALL about killing civilians. Innocent people. People having nothing to do with his beef with America.
Then you have to understand why. Maybe because the US government has backed corporate interests in these countries that have rendered them poor for decades, leading to a lower life expectancy and thus indirectly deaths. Just MAYBE that's why Osama hates the US, I mean - he comes from the Saudi house - a house that is backed by US just because of oil interests.
Indirectly, US government policy has been the cause of thousands of more deaths than the 3000 at twin towers. Still, neither are justified. And the reason for this is not to kill as many as possible, they do this to cause fear. Only that.
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Give me a break. The US is not causing these countries to be poor and run down. Look at Saudi Arabia. They are a rich nation yet their population is incredibly repressed. That has nothing to do with the US. The fact that Afghanistan and Iran used to be liberal and supported women's rights but now no longer do has nothing to do with the US. It has everything to do with extremists taking over the governments in those countries and keeping their people uneducated to maintain power. This is not the US's doing.
I want our troops out of foreign lands as much as everyone. But you can't just go saying this is all the US fault and we are just reaping what we sow. That's crap.
Did we make a mistake in hiring Osama and his boys in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. Yes. Does that mean 3,000 innocent people deserved to die almost 20 years later? No. Does that make Osama Bin Laden a murderer? Yes. Nothing Bin Laden did was justified. He attacked innocents. His war was against the US people. Not even necessarily the military. His only real attack against the military was his attack on the USS Cole.
Osama's "war" is bullshit. The war on terrorism is bullshit. It's all bullshit. But that doesn't make Osama not a perpetrator and enabler of mass murder of innocent people.
We wouldn't be in this shit state if it weren't for 9/11. He attacked the American public directly and caused a lot of pain. Maybe you aren't near NYC. Maybe you don't realize the impact fully. I don't know. But what happened that day was not deserved. Don't ever think otherwise.
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7SB, I don't think anybody here is arguing that 3,000 innocent Americans deserve to die.
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Stop apologizing for a mass murderer and enemy to the US. He declared war on us. He made himself our enemy. He got exactly what he was asking for.
The US does not target civilians. Terrorists (Osama) was ALL about killing civilians. Innocent people. People having nothing to do with his beef with America.
Then you have to understand why. Maybe because the US government has backed corporate interests in these countries that have rendered them poor for decades,
prove it?
i refuse to believe i went half a world away for "corporate interests."
edit -it's because i didn't. when i went away when i was 19, I sure as hell didn't believe it was for corporate interests. I just don't understand why people think that's the case.
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welllllll
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I know you take it personally. I'm sorry about that.
But really, it's the military industrial complex that makes money offa wars.
You tell me why they needa be fought in the first place. To liberate people? Then why not liberate the Saudis? Or the people of Bahrain?
Also, mildly relevant:
(https://cappuccinoschrijft.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/index.png?w=400&h=532)
And no.. I don't support killing civilians, if that's what it seemed like.
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Everyone needs to :chill
These are still happy times :)
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Everyone needs to :chill
These are still happy times :)
+1
i respect everyone's opinion, as they truly have a right to it.
but please everybody, please stop saying that the troops are fighting for "insert here".
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So what are they fighting for?
Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. At all.
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So what are they fighting for?
Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. At all.
i onlly went cuz i had to (the first tour). i honestly didn't know what the hell i was fighting for then (i was 19).
my point is that i respect your opinion as to why we went
but for people to say "the troops are fighting for "insert here" is total bs to me. to say i went for "this reason" is wrong. i just went, as most did, because we had to.
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Ricky, what did you do while you were there? Just curious.
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Ricky, what did you do while you were there? Just curious.
I was lucky in that i was in the 172'd infantry (google it), as I was stationed in the mountains, away from most of the action.
edit - nothing more, ok? i was just trying to be objective in my posts. i dont represent the troops. i represent nobody but myself.
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Glad you made it out alive. I support the troops, not the war.
One thought: I would be scared to be in New York, Its the most populated city, and has the most significance in our Economy.
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So what are they fighting for?
Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. At all.
i onlly went cuz i had to (the first tour). i honestly didn't know what the hell i was fighting for then (i was 19).
my point is that i respect your opinion as to why we went
but for people to say "the troops are fighting for "insert here" is total bs to me. to say i went for "this reason" is wrong. i just went, as most did, because we had to.
Well, yeah, I see what you're saying. But, still, you went because of [*insert what the mission was*].
I went to Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/Iraq to liberate Kuwait. Yeah, maybe I didn't fully comprehend or agree with the mission at the time, and maybe our Commander In Chief at the time and other leaders had other ulterior motives. But that was the mission, and I'm fine saying that's why I went. I was ordered to go as part of the liberating force, and I went. Not because I necessarily compehended or agreed with the mission, but because I was ordered to. /story
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So what are they fighting for?
Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. At all.
i onlly went cuz i had to (the first tour). i honestly didn't know what the hell i was fighting for then (i was 19).
my point is that i respect your opinion as to why we went
but for people to say "the troops are fighting for "insert here" is total bs to me. to say i went for "this reason" is wrong. i just went, as most did, because we had to.
Well, yeah, I see what you're saying. But, still, you went because of [*insert what the mission was*].
I went to Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/Iraq to liberate Kuwait. Yeah, maybe I didn't fully comprehend or agree with the mission at the time, and maybe our Commander In Chief at the time and other leaders had other ulterior motives. But that was the mission, and I'm fine saying that's why I went. I was ordered to go as part of the liberating force, and I went. Not because I necessarily compehended or agreed with the mission, but because I was ordered to. /story
exactly, bosk.
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Thanks to everyone who served. Regardless of why our country entered a war, those who were serving in the armed forces of the united States went because they swore to "......support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that they (sic) would bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that they'd (sic) obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over them...." It's one thing to question the motives of a government, but not those who serve. While sometimes the reasons might not be clear, the mission should be.
I too went to Iraq, but to meet the troops.... :biggrin: What an honor for me! God Bless them all!
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Let's stir this thing with some interesting discussion. The source of the following page comes from a really lefty ideological page. I like to read it once in a while just to feel I'm balancing my views. They sometimes write really reasonable arguments, they sometimes arrive to the right conclusion using the wrong arguments and wrong reasons... it happens. OK, let's get down to it, what do you think of this:
PREDICTED IN MARCH 2010: Staging bin Laden's 'Death'
by Enver Masud
https://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24595
Global Research, May 2, 2011
The Wisdom Fund - 2010-03-25
It appears that we are being primed for the "death" of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.
Attorney General Eric Holder told (https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62G4MX20100317) a House panel this month [March 2010] that bin Laden "will never appear in an American courtroom."
Others (https://www.twf.org/Y2006/0608-BinLaden.html) who have examined the evidence, and the "bin Laden tapes," have concluded that bin Laden is dead.
US Defense Secretary Robert Gates admitted (https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8397684.stm) that the US has had no reliable information on the whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden in years.
But the US needs a neat ending to its war on Afghanistan.
Staging (https://www.twf.org/Y2003/0411-Statue.html) bin Laden's death will be seen as a fitting end to this genocidal war for the control (https://www.twf.org/News/Y2003/1020-Game.html) of energy resources. Of course it will have to be done so that visual identification is not possible.
We suspect that when bin Laden is "killed," we'll just have to trust the folks that lied us into war to confirm they got him.
The premise doesn't sound too far fetched. However, I think that if the US Government releases the pictures -and, also, somehow prove that they are real- this theory will shatter to pieces. Until then...
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Give me a break. The US is not causing these countries to be poor and run down. Look at Saudi Arabia. They are a rich nation yet their population is incredibly repressed. That has nothing to do with the US. The fact that Afghanistan and Iran used to be liberal and supported women's rights but now no longer do has nothing to do with the US. It has everything to do with extremists taking over the governments in those countries and keeping their people uneducated to maintain power. This is not the US's doing.
Well, um, actually all of those have a great deal to do with us. We've propped up the Saudi royal family for decades because they're friendly with us. We opened the door for the Taliban to come right on in. We created the situation that led to the Islamic revolution in Iran. We've done a shitload to interfere in the affairs of the Middle East/Asia and I can certainly see how plenty of them wouldn't be too upset that 3000 New Yorkers got blown to bits. This is not me saying that it was justified, as I'm opposed to the targeting of civvies, but I can see their point of view. From their perspective, Americans elect leaders who exploit a big chunk of the world and then cover their eyes to that exploitation so they can enjoy the rewards. Hell, I'm offended by that and I'm on the the happy side of the equation.
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The US has almost everything to do with it.
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The US has almost everything to do with it.
No we don't. We play politics. Every country does that. We have made bad decisions no doubt, and I agree that we shouldn't support the Saudi Royal family. I think our relationship with Saudi Arabia is the worst.
But we aren't the ones telling these government to keep their people down. If those gov's were good to the people there wouldn't be any problems.
But people seem to get real upset when we go in and start uprooting governments whether they be corrupt or not. And unfortunately we can't just ignore the bad ones. If you drive a car you can see that we need to deal with these people for oil. So if you really take that much offense, and really think that we are that much at fault. Don't ever buy gas again.
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The US has almost everything to do with it.
No we don't. We play politics. Every country does that. We have made bad decisions no doubt, and I agree that we shouldn't support the Saudi Royal family. I think our relationship with Saudi Arabia is the worst.
But we aren't the ones telling these government to keep their people down. If those gov's were good to the people there wouldn't be any problems.
But people seem to get real upset when we go in and start uprooting governments whether they be corrupt or not. And unfortunately we can't just ignore the bad ones. If you drive a car you can see that we need to deal with these people for oil. So if you really take that much offense, and really think that we are that much at fault. Don't ever buy gas again.
I didn't take offense to that. It is our fault. We had the technology 20 years ago to start getting automobiles off gasoline and we chose not to. That's what I get angry at. If I could ride my bike 80 miles to school and back I would.
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Explain to me how it is the US fault that the Saudi people are oppressed.
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I don't think it's the US's *fault* but we certainly don't help things much.
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No, we don't help things much. And Barto is right in what he said in his post. BUT there's still no excuse for targeting civilians or for wishing an entire peopulation dead. No matter how you slice it, there is no legitimate justification for that.
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Although I think there is something to be said about the following statement:
people seem to get real upset when we go in and start uprooting governments whether they be corrupt or not. And unfortunately we can't just ignore the bad ones.
I've been learning in a political theory class about the Enlightenment, which entails of course ideas such as rational self-interest and following and pursuing natural human progress. I came across an interesting criticism by a contemporary that used the metaphor of a tree to describe human civilization. He said that different cultures were different branches, and that the Enlightenment sought to hedge those branches in order to move humanity in the "right" direction, in whichever direction they deemed the most beneficial for humanity, or to go back to the metaphor, healthiest for the tree. This philosopher, Johann Gottfried Herder (who is unfortunately more famous for the ubermentsch concept), advocated for allowing the tree to grow wild and in any direction nature takes it. After all, who is anyone to say what is the right direction for the tree to grow in? Who determines how the tree ought to be hedged, or if it ought to be at all? Indeed we may miss something that could've been potentially beneficial to humanity as a whole because something seemed to be harmful for the rest of the tree or even for one immediate branch.
I'm not saying that tyrannical and despotic governments should continue to exist as they do and exploit their peoples. But who are we to decide what the right alternative is? I believe that when a people is done with a form of society and ready to start anew, they'll enact the change on their own. After all, what have we been seeing in the last few months in the Middle East? We certainly didn't get that ball rolling; those people did, when they were ready to. And after all, our societies have their own problems, and if you look at them a certain way they may prove to be just as tyrannical as a Muslim caliphate, or worse. It all depends whose eyes you're looking at it through.
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Stole the words from my mouth, SD :tup
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And I stole those in turn from my professor! :lol
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knock of teh plagiarism
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And I stole those in turn from my professor! :lol
Yeah, I could tell the copypasta :lol It happens, though.
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Although I think there is something to be said about the following statement:
people seem to get real upset when we go in and start uprooting governments whether they be corrupt or not. And unfortunately we can't just ignore the bad ones.
I've been learning in a political theory class about the Enlightenment, which entails of course ideas such as rational self-interest and following and pursuing natural human progress. I came across an interesting criticism by a contemporary that used the metaphor of a tree to describe human civilization. He said that different cultures were different branches, and that the Enlightenment sought to hedge those branches in order to move humanity in the "right" direction, in whichever direction they deemed the most beneficial for humanity, or to go back to the metaphor, healthiest for the tree. This philosopher, Johann Gottfried Herder (who is unfortunately more famous for the ubermentsch concept), advocated for allowing the tree to grow wild and in any direction nature takes it. After all, who is anyone to say what is the right direction for the tree to grow in? Who determines how the tree ought to be hedged, or if it ought to be at all? Indeed we may miss something that could've been potentially beneficial to humanity as a whole because something seemed to be harmful for the rest of the tree or even for one immediate branch.
I'm not saying that tyrannical and despotic governments should continue to exist as they do and exploit their peoples. But who are we to decide what the right alternative is? I believe that when a people is done with a form of society and ready to start anew, they'll enact the change on their own. After all, what have we been seeing in the last few months in the Middle East? We certainly didn't get that ball rolling; those people did, when they were ready to. And after all, our societies have their own problems, and if you look at them a certain way they may prove to be just as tyrannical as a Muslim caliphate, or worse. It all depends whose eyes you're looking at it through.
Very similar to what Marx was trying to say in the manifesto. Unfortunately anyone who claimed to followed his philosophies did pretty much the opposite of what it was saying. When the people have had enough and are willing to inact change, then a true revolution will succeed. Not what Lenin or Stalin did or anyone like that but when the mass majorty of the proleteriats wants it it will have a real chance of succeeding. People will always eventually resist oppression, of any kind. Sometimes it just takes a while.
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Explain to me how it is the US fault that the Saudi people are oppressed.
First off, I'm not entirely sure they are that oppressed. From what I can tell, they're actually displeased because the government isn't hardassed enough (though I could be misinterpreting things here). However, the people aren't happy with their leadership and it's entirely possible that Fahd would have been out on his ass 20 years ago without the massive US presence there propping him up. Moreover, it's quite possible that Saddam would have moved into Saudi Arabia if we hadn't stopped him at Kuwait, and I'm not at all sure that wouldn't have been a big improvement. Remember, Saddam was our pal until he started menacing Uncle Fahd. There's also the notion that their number one beef is that we're trampling all over their desert, being infidels and letting women drive. That's leading to a huge part of the discontent. Anyway you slice it, they're not happy and we're heavily involved in their situation. While things certainly might not be better if we'd taken a different course, we took the course we did and things suck. Hard not to point the finger at us.
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What's funny is the pattern of this US-Middle East relationship looks almost exactly like the Han Dynasty's relations with the Xiongnu or the Roman Empire's far less successful dealings with the Goths and other Germanic European peoples.
1. We've (inadvertently or not) lent legitimacy to the rival power's ruling class (i.e. through starting revolutions or other stuff).
2. They provide us with a precious commodity that provides our leaders with legitimacy (in the above example, the Hans gave silk to the Xiongnu, who distributed it among their clan leaders in order to keep them all united).
3. The above exchanges cohere into a shaky peace between both rival powers.
Here's hoping our end result doesn't end up like that of the Romans.
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What's funny is the pattern of this US-Middle East relationship looks almost exactly like the Han Dynasty's relations with the Xiongnu or the Roman Empire's far less successful dealings with the Goths and other Germanic European peoples.
1. We've (inadvertently or not) lent legitimacy to the rival power's ruling class (i.e. through starting revolutions or other stuff).
2. They provide us with a precious commodity that provides our leaders with legitimacy (in the above example, the Hans gave silk to the Xiongnu, who distributed it among their clan leaders in order to keep them all united).
3. The above exchanges cohere into a shaky peace between both rival powers.
Here's hoping our end result doesn't end up like that of the Romans.
Very interesting and true comparison. (Also, the allusion to Rome totally reminds me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFhgv-eTkXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFhgv-eTkXo) )
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If ever in doubt of how to get out of this mess (this mess being any mess really), you can always looks to history. :)
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Explain to me how it is the US fault that the Saudi people are oppressed.
First off, I'm not entirely sure they are that oppressed. From what I can tell, they're actually displeased because the government isn't hardassed enough (though I could be misinterpreting things here). However, the people aren't happy with their leadership and it's entirely possible that Fahd would have been out on his ass 20 years ago without the massive US presence there propping him up. Moreover, it's quite possible that Saddam would have moved into Saudi Arabia if we hadn't stopped him at Kuwait, and I'm not at all sure that wouldn't have been a big improvement. Remember, Saddam was our pal until he started menacing Uncle Fahd. There's also the notion that their number one beef is that we're trampling all over their desert, being infidels and letting women drive. That's leading to a huge part of the discontent. Anyway you slice it, they're not happy and we're heavily involved in their situation. While things certainly might not be better if we'd taken a different course, we took the course we did and things suck. Hard not to point the finger at us.
Considering women have absolutely no rights in Saudi Arabia, I'd say at least 50% of the population is oppressed. That has nothing to do with the United States. And like I said, people complain about going in and uprooting governments, you being one of those people. So really, its not our fault. We can't be held responsible for the governments that oppress their people. It's not our place to go in and tell them what to do, right? And we still have to play diplomacy with these people regardless. But to say the US is what is upholding oppression around the world is ludicrous. Just look at Egypt. They got sick of it, and stood up for themselves as people. The Saudis could do that if they wanted to. Any country has the chance to do it. It's not like the US is sitting there going no you can't.
Maybe we are doing that in Saudi Arabia, but I doubt it. The people there don't seem too motivated for change. But I personally am displeased with our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Just doesn't all mean that the US is at fault for the bullshit governments put their people through.
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Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now? :biggrin:
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Wow incredible photo!!
(https://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/05/02/world/02obama_683_cham/02obama_683_cham-custom4.jpg)
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Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now? :biggrin:
This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive
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Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now? :biggrin:
This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive
Finding that hard drive seems like a bad thing to publicly announce.
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How so?
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Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now? :biggrin:
This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive
Even interactive fiction?
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Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now? :biggrin:
This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive
Even interactive fiction?
Holy crap Andy. That was a... a joke!
DTF, we must take to the streets and celebrate this day!
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Prepare yourself for the quality of some our newspapers:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/290026029.gif?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1304421270&Signature=0hZ4VBNY4fGxQAbWuuETanmwDww%3D)
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Prepare yourself for the quality of some our newspapers:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/290026029.gif?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1304421270&Signature=0hZ4VBNY4fGxQAbWuuETanmwDww%3D)
link's broken.
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Considering women have absolutely no rights in Saudi Arabia, I'd say at least 50% of the population is oppressed. That has nothing to do with the United States. And like I said, people complain about going in and uprooting governments, you being one of those people. So really, its not our fault. We can't be held responsible for the governments that oppress their people. It's not our place to go in and tell them what to do, right?
So why is the US meddling in Iraq? And why is the US supporting the Saudi government. Why not stay out of it completely?
And we still have to play diplomacy with these people regardless. But to say the US is what is upholding oppression around the world is ludicrous. Just look at Egypt. They got sick of it, and stood up for themselves as people.
Against a US backed leader by the name of Hosni Mubarak.
The Saudis could do that if they wanted to. Any country has the chance to do it. It's not like the US is sitting there going no you can't.
Actually. Yes they are. Or they're not stopping the Saudi government from opressing their people, so indirectly by backing the Saudi house they're opressing the Saudi people.
Maybe we are doing that in Saudi Arabia, but I doubt it. The people there don't seem too motivated for change. But I personally am displeased with our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Just doesn't all mean that the US is at fault for the bullshit governments put their people through.
Of course not. But all too often it has been the case. Seriously, Iran looks like a civil democracy compared to Saudi Arabia. And the US relationship with the Saudi house is the reason Osama got furious in the first place, he is of the Saudi house.
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Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now? :biggrin:
This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive
Even interactive fiction?
Holy crap Andy. That was a... a joke!
DTF, we must take to the streets and celebrate this day!
Holy shit, Andy made a joke! The messiah really is coming!
More words of wisdom:
I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy.
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While I am sure they already have a replacement lined up, I doubt he will have the same level of charisma, or be as politically savvy as Osama was, And that can only be seen as a good thing imo.
We may not have destroyed Al Qaeda, but we are one step closer at least.
Also, :lol
(https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/nursetpd/Misc/Osama_Bin_Laden_Dead.gif)
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Leave it to pro athletes to speak out of their asses. Rashard Mendenhall of the Pittsburgh Steelers and I quote,
Mendenhall, who suggested a conspiracy on 9/11, took it a step further. "What kind of person celebrates death?" he tweeted. "It's amazing how people can HATE a man they have never even heard speak. We've only heard one side."
Never speak Rashard? Really?! Same on you for opening your mouth without knowing the facts. I guess he doesn't watch a lot of TV. :facepalm:
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https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/out-of-osamas-death-a-fake-quotation-is-born/238220/
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https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/out-of-osamas-death-a-fake-quotation-is-born/238220/
Nice.
Even though the comments became a spam fest in no time flat, I love the first one:
"People believe anything they read on the internet if it fits their preconceived notions."
--Thomas Jefferson
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(https://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/05/03/1226048/899672-obama-clinton-watch-bin-laden-raid.jpg)
Man, want to have been a fly on the wall at that moment (they are following the incoming news about the identification of bin Laden).
rumborak
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Is the Trinity Killer hanging out at the White House? What the heck...
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Prepare yourself for the quality of some our newspapers:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/290026029.gif?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1304421270&Signature=0hZ4VBNY4fGxQAbWuuETanmwDww%3D)
link's broken.
Dammit.
Edit: Thankfully, I had it open in another tab so I took a screenshot of it:
(https://i.imgur.com/Kalwf.png)
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Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now? :biggrin:
This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive
I'm more interested in how long it takes them to crack TrueCrypt. This could be a fascinating test. I'd assume that OBL's IT guy did his homework and clearly the prospects for a side-channel attack are slim. They might not get anything but Aunt Shada's recipe for naan.
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(https://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/05/03/1226048/899672-obama-clinton-watch-bin-laden-raid.jpg)
Man, want to have been a fly on the wall at that moment (they are following the incoming news about the identification of bin Laden).
rumborak
the faces are really interesting. hillary is like 'holy shit i just witnessed a killing', obama is like 'die motherfucker, second term!', biden is like 'i wonder if i can catch the 1247 amtrak?'
btw, can anyone blow up and see what the pics in front of hillary are? is it osama's body?
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the faces are really interesting. hillary is like 'holy shit i just witnessed a killing', obama is like 'die motherfucker, second term!', biden is like 'i wonder if i can catch the 1247 amtrak?'
:rollin I love you, ZGF.
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btw, can anyone blow up and see what the pics in front of hillary are? is it osama's body?
From here it looks like an aerial view of the compound.
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That's what I'm thinking too. Has that familiar surrounded-by-dirt look.
rumborak
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btw, can anyone blow up and see what the pics in front of hillary are? is it osama's body?
From here it looks like an aerial view of the compound.
uh... those are balls sir.
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btw, can anyone blow up and see what the pics in front of hillary are? is it osama's body?
From here it looks like an aerial view of the compound.
uh... those are balls sir.
Yeah. And that's missingno on the military guy's shirt.
Wait.
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btw, can anyone blow up and see what the pics in front of hillary are? is it osama's body?
From here it looks like an aerial view of the compound.
uh... those are balls sir.
:lol
I actually found a picture, but it's detailed enough that I think I'll not post it. I loved that it was Zuckerhorn who figured it out. That guy was a hoot.
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Is the Trinity Killer hanging out at the White House? What the heck...
In all seriousness... is that John Lithgow? haha
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Unretouched operations room pic:
(https://i53.tinypic.com/32zoqxf.jpg)
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(https://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4803/retardamericans.jpg)
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Unretouched operations room pic:
(https://i53.tinypic.com/32zoqxf.jpg)
:rollin
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Another reason why I don't exactly feel like celebrating is because that shithead pretty much got exactly what he wanted. Since the 9/11 attacks:
-Our liberties and freedoms have been severely eroded in the name of "security."
-We're mired in two(and a half) wars we can't pay for
-Our economy is in shambles
-He died a martyr
WE SURE SHOWED HIM! USA! USA! USA! USA!
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Another reason why I don't exactly feel like celebrating is because that shithead pretty much got exactly what he wanted. Since the 9/11 attacks:
-Our liberties and freedoms have been severely eroded in the name of "security."
-We're mired in two(and a half) wars we can't pay for
-Our economy is in shambles
-He died a martyr
WE SURE SHOWED HIM! USA! USA! USA! USA!
That's very true. I feel like killing him is in many ways a shallow victory.
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Nothing I have heard yet suggest he died a martyr. He just died. Most of the world is happy about his death. I've only been hearing positive reports regarding the way the world is taking his death.
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But those first three points still stand.
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Indeed. It feels good on a very base level but that's about it.
Also, excellent article by Mona Eltahawy in the Guardian:
No dignity at Ground Zero
As a US Muslim I abhor the frat boy reaction. We should be celebrating the Arab spring, not this
I could hear the cheers as I got out of the taxi, two blocks away. I could hear them from right in front of Park 51, the site of a planned Islamic community centre and mosque that met ferocious opposition last year for being too close to the "hallowed ground" of Ground Zero. It was minutes after President Obama's announcement that Osama bin Laden had been killed, and I was heeding a friend's suggestion that we – both Muslims – take candles and stand in vigil where the World Trade Centre stood before Bin Laden's footsoldiers took it down.
So it was a shock to find hundreds of others had turned that hallowed ground into the scene of a home crowd celebrating an away victory they hadn't attended, the roots of which they were probably not there to experience or were too young to remember.
There was always something sickening about tourists taking pictures of themselves posing in front of that big gaping hole called Ground Zero. "Me at site of mass slaughter, NYC" as holiday photo caption is wrong in every language, surely. It didn't take 10 minutes for the frat party atmosphere to sicken me. Olympic-style chants of "USA! USA!" I could just about take as a freshly minted American, as of Friday. But "Fuck Osama! Ole ole ole!" crushed any ambition of dignity for the thousands killed, many of whom had jumped hundreds of storeys to their deaths, their bodies shattered to pieces close to where we stood.
I wanted to stand in vigil, too, for the thousands more killed in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq as part of the war on terror that George Bush unleashed and Obama hasn't done much to rein in. I wanted to stand in vigil as a Muslim who just last summer reminded Americans – insisting that Park 51 move "out of sensitivity for 9/11 victims" – that Muslims were also its victims.
Good riddance, Bin Laden. An unwelcome squatter in the house of my religion who tore down all the walls and was prepared to throw them on a fire to keep himself warm. Al-Qaida killed more Muslims than non-Muslims. Anytime it committed an atrocity anywhere, Muslims over here paid for it. My brother, a cardiologist, was among thousands of Muslims visited by the FBI in November 2001 and forced to submit to special registration fingerprinting, his photo and information for ever in homeland security's files. Hundreds were detained. Hundreds were deported. Profiling.
Good riddance, Bin Laden. I long detested you and knew that when Mohamed Bouazizi set himself on fire in the Tunisian town of Sidi Bouzid last December, he was igniting a fire that would render irrelevantBin Laden the man and his inflated self-importance. When Tunisians overthrew Zine El Abidine Ben Ali in 29 days and Egyptians Hosni Mubarak in 18 days it was an appropriate rebuke to dictators and Bin Laden. What had become more mesmerising to young people in the Middle East and North Africa: change via revolutionary fervour that has blown apart stereotypes of Arabs and Muslims, or the hate-filled al-Qaida message that falsely promised change through nihilistic violence?
I wanted to have that conversation. But there was only one woman nearby holding candles. In between the dozens of requests for interviews and photos she got, I quickly told her she was the most dignified person there. She was stunned.
I moved to the US a year before 9/11. The day after the attack, a drunk tried to set the local mosque on fire. I first visited Ground Zero in July 2002 and could only cry and pray. "Good riddance, Bin Laden," I wanted to shout on Monday; but this new American instead quietly recited Al Fatiha, the opening chapter of the Qur'an, with "USA, USA USA" as my backdrop. I recited it for the innocent lives taken in NYC, Washington DC, Shanksville in Pennsylvania, Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan – wherever the war on terror left its stains.
The scene at Ground Zero was like a parody of Team America, the film created by the South Park team to parody Bush's America gone wild on nationalism. Now that we've parodied the parody, can the frat boys go home and can we return to the revolutions of the Middle East and north Africa that symbolically killed Bin Laden months ago?
I'm not hearing sympathy for Bin Laden from Muslims and Arabs I know. They're relieved he's finally gone. But they're understandably concerned that media obsession will let him hijack these noble revolutions. One man has been killed; dozens courageously staring down despots are slaughtered every day.
Source: https://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/03/no-dignity-ground-zero-frat-boy
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Being in two wars we can't pay for is true.
Our economy isn't really in shambles though. We have had a down turn, but to say its in shambles is hyperbole.
And I haven't lost any freedoms since 9/11. The most noticeable change is airport security.
I really don't think Osama got what he wanted. In fact, he has watched as Al Qaeda becomes more and more obsolete over the years. Especially with the youth of the middle east standing up for change without using terrorism and outright rejecting terrorism. This is the last thing he wanted.
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Our economy isn't really in shambles though. We have had a down turn, but to say its in shambles is hyperbole.
You know, except for the fact that unemployment is decreasing without actually creating that many jobs.
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We played right into his hand. And as for your point about al Qaeda being obsolete, I don't really think that sort of command structure is needed any more. it's just an ideology. The people over there hate us for what we've done, Al Qaeda or no Al Qaeda.
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The ideology of terrorism is going to die. Especially in the Muslim world. Times are changing, and it appears the people of the middle east are sick of terrorism and oppression taking control. That is a huge middle finger to Bin Laden and terrorists alike.
And I'm sick of self important people making sweeping generalizations towards the people who celebrated Bin Ladens death. How is saying fuck you Osama rot in hell some how disrespectful to victims of 9/11? That makes no sense. It's not like these people celebrating don't understand what this all means. It's a gut reaction to something that we've been waiting for for 10 years. I am in NYC. I was in Manhattan when I heard the news. People were out on their balconies cheering and yelling over it. It felt good, that after 10 years and the pain the people of NYC went through, they were able to get some satisfaction and a chance to let out some frustration with this 10 year manhunt. We know the war isn't over. We know terrorism will still linger around. But Jesus christ stop judging people for feeling the way they feel.
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Is it so difficult to comprehend that people feel they would lower themselves by cheering for the death of a person? Relief is one thing, revenge another. And there's a good number of people who remember some lessons from the Bible about revenge.
rumborak
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And there's a good number of people who remember some lessons from the Bible about revenge.
I would like to believe that God would not think turning the other cheek to terrorists would be the best decision.
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And there's a good number of people who remember some lessons from the Bible about revenge.
I would like to believe that God would not think turning the other cheek to terrorists would be the best decision.
God. LAWL! :rollin
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Is it so difficult to comprehend that people feel they would lower themselves by cheering for the death of a person? Relief is one thing, revenge another. And there's a good number of people who remember some lessons from the Bible about revenge.
rumborak
I learned more from OldBoy.
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God. LAWL! :rollin
:umno:
Also, in this debate about whether it's right or wrong to celebrate this, there is a lot of gray area. There's no way it's just black and white.
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And I haven't lost any freedoms since 9/11. The most noticeable change is airport security.
Patriot Act? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act)
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And I haven't lost any freedoms since 9/11. The most noticeable change is airport security.
Yeah, you've lost a ton of freedoms. You just haven't noticed because none of them have affected you (yet).
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God. LAWL! :rollin
:umno:
Also, in this debate about whether it's right or wrong to celebrate this, there is a lot of gray area. There's no way it's just black and white.
:angel:
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I find it amusing that people are trying their hardest to be above this and say killing is wrong, etc. to hide their animal instincts because it is uncivilized to absolutely love what happened. I prefer to know and share that if i had a gun and found bin laden, i wouldn't have hesitated to use it with deadly force, no questions asked. killing evil doesn't make you evil, there is no need to categorize into black and white.
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I find it amusing that people are trying their hardest to be above this and say killing is wrong, etc. to hide their animal instincts because it is uncivilized to absolutely love what happened. I prefer to know and share that if i had a gun and found bin laden, i wouldn't have hesitated to use it with deadly force, no questions asked. killing evil doesn't make you evil, there is no need to categorize into black and white.
Sure and I'm not saying I'm above it, but my own personal feeling is that I'm not really in that place anymore, I mean where killing bin Laden for me is an unambiguous triumph. Considering all that's happened since 9/11 I feel like the real victory for me would be getting the economy back on track, having the new harshness and unbridled chaos of politics tamed, becoming the world power again, things like that. In a way I feel like my personal sense is that for all the horrible things he'd done, bin Laden's death to me isn't the great triumph it was.
The best I can do is compare it to if in 1971 we'd caught Ho Chi Minh and brought him to the US for torture, or if we'd killed him. Sure it would've been great because we could finally have ended the Vietnam War and people could get peace of mind for the boys that were killed, but since entering that war the economy had crumbled, the American Dream had been shattered, and the entire political, cultural, and social discourse had changed forever to the point that the American people really didn't believe in the government or trust it like they had only ten years before. Such a victory would have felt hollow or out of place because the country wasn't in that place anymore. So basically that's what I'm feeling on my own personal, individual level.
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I never considered Bin Laden that significant anyway, he was the money man for the operations. The real evil is Zawahiri who plans and inspires people. We need to track him down and kill him to finish off Al Qaida. After his death, there will be no Al Qaida, just a bunch of headless chicken planning and failing small attacks.
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So now the White House has disclosed that he was unarmed when they popped him and that he didn't hide behind his wife after all. I tend to give a great deal of deference to LEA when they shoot somebody, so his being unarmed doesn't bother me. The human shield thing didn't sit well with me, though. For one, we had no way of knowing if it were actually true, and if it were, then it probably didn't mean a whole lot since he would have had no trouble finding plenty of women who'd volunteer for such a job. It's not like he grabbed a stranger to hide behind. Really, it just seemed like they wanted to paint him as a coward and in that they were quite successful. Bad show, honestly. When you're actually in the right about something, the worst thing you can do is lie about the details. Now there's no reason to believe anything they say since they've already demonstrated their bias.
Edit: hideously long link to story (https://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/04/us-obama-statement-idUSTRE74107920110504?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F+US+%2F+Top+News%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher)
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And there's a good number of people who remember some lessons from the Bible about revenge.
I would like to believe that God would not think turning the other cheek to terrorists would be the best decision.
You don't have to turn the other cheek. But if you call yourself a Christian, you should probably heed one of Jesus' core messages of caring and praying for the sinners, not the good guys.
rumborak
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Come on, WikiLeaks! Release this video now.
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Our economy isn't really in shambles though. We have had a down turn, but to say its in shambles is hyperbole.
Not shambles, but the economy is suffering from multiple structural problems.
And I haven't lost any freedoms since 9/11. The most noticeable change is airport security.
How are you defining freedoms?
I really don't think Osama got what he wanted. In fact, he has watched as Al Qaeda becomes more and more obsolete over the years. Especially with the youth of the middle east standing up for change without using terrorism and outright rejecting terrorism. This is the last thing he wanted.
I sort of agree. Ultimately, his personal power decreased vastly due to the Afghanistan invasion. But I'm not on board with how you're framing the current movement of change in the Middle East. Not that I like any of the Middle East strongmen at all, but they mostly sit around and make their own countries miserable so they can enjoy nice food, sex, and power tripping. The current group of Middle East rebels seem to be the kind of religious extremists Osama would support. But we're supporting them, so... wait.
It's odd what side we find ourselves on given the moment.
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I see the current climate in the Middle East as unrelated to OBL. I'd say that he got exactly what he wanted with regard to the US. While his role with AQ has been reduced to that of figurehead, our actions couldn't have been any more inline with what he sought. The two wars were the best recruiting tool and the best publicity he could have ever hoped for. And with the decentralized nature of terrorist groups, his leadership wasn't very important anyway. Figurehead was the best role for him. I'll also add that he's spent the last 6 years living the family life in a house on the hills, all the while watching us on CNN blow billions on useless body scanners and otherwise acting like frightened children. We might have hurt AQ in some ways, but the bigger picture favored his interest in AQ.
As for the revolutions taking place, they're both good and bad for OBL's goal. They're doing exactly what he was ostensibly seeking, which is the ouster of US puppet leadership. However, they're taking a completely different path to doing so that what he was promoting. This doesn't help him at all. Regardless, they're really unrelated to our conflict with AQ, so I wouldn't use that as an indicator in his war with us.
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(https://artoftrolling.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/chatroulette-trolling-osama-bin-trolling.jpg)
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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:lol
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So... people on the radio and the internet are furious about the photos of Bin Laden no being released. Im am curious as to whether it is because the American people don't trust the government, or is it that they just want to see him dead.
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I think it was a good decision not to show the pictures. Nothing good can be accomplished by it. It would only tick off muslims even more. Sure, there are people that don't believe that he was killed. So what.
I think there is a small portion of people who don't trust the government, but mostly people are curious to see him dead.
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I'd guess both.
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So... people on the radio and the internet are furious about the photos of Bin Laden no being released. Im am curious as to whether it is because the American people don't trust the government, or is it that they just want to see him dead.
I would guess more the first part. And really, should anyone really trust the government?
I agree with the President that releasing the photo's is a bad idea. Why piss off the entire nation of Islam and create more unrest then their already is.
If they want to shut up the conspiracy theorists, just give Sarah Palin a private viewing of the photo's and have her say she saw them. She hates Obama so much people would then believe the pictures exist.
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So... people on the radio and the internet are furious about the photos of Bin Laden no being released. Im am curious as to whether it is because the American people don't trust the government, or is it that they just want to see him dead.
I would guess more the first part. And really, should anyone really trust the government?
I agree with the President that releasing the photo's is a bad idea. Why piss off the entire nation of Islam and create more unrest then their already is.
If they want to shut up the conspiracy theorists, just give Sarah Palin a private viewing of the photo's and have her say she saw them. She hates Obama so much people would then believe the pictures exist.
Yes.
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Why?
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There's no doubt in my mind that bin Laden is dead, but "it might piss off some fringe Muslims" is the dumbest reason ever to not release the photos. It's a huge, huge stretch to say there's a connection between the release of these photos and increased unrest in the Middle East.
-J
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I think it might piss off a lot more people than just some "fringe Muslims". It doesn't matter how little of much a moderate Afghani or Pakistani might hate Obama, if he/she sees the US gov't releasing graphic pictures of the kill, there's only one impression to get from that: gloating.
Also, what are pictures these days anyway? Do you really think the loonies in this country who think the gov't is faking it will be satisfied with seeing a photograph? They'll get some "specialists" in on FOX who say "I can tell by the pixels it's shooped", and then you can add this event to the moon landing.
All this is is Republicans trying their damndest to make Obama look bad because they know the kill of bin Laden is good for his public image. They wouldn't have released the pictures either, that's for sure.
rumborak
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Also, what are pictures these days anyway? Do you really think the loonies in this country who think the gov't is faking it will be satisfied with seeing a photograph?
This makes sense, and is a better argument I think. There isn't really anything to accomplish by releasing the photos, other than satisfy the curiosity of some.
They'll get some "specialists" in on FOX who say "I can tell by the pixels it's shooped"
:rollin
All this is is Republicans trying their damndest to make Obama look bad because they know the kill of bin Laden is good for his public image. They wouldn't have released the pictures either, that's for sure.
Agreed.
-J
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(https://i.imgur.com/BibjH.png)
And yes, it's real. https://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-03/world/bin.laden.fake.photo_1_bin-photograph-photo-release?_s=PM:WORLD
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Why?
Let me turn that around: why must we automatically distrust the government? Sure, it's totally reasonable to question your government; that's how audit and evaluation works. But why should we maintain this compulsion that the government is automatically untrustworthy? It makes it a lot harder for the government to do their job right if they constantly have to worry about maintaining a self-contradicting image of 100% efficiency and 100% accountability. In this as in all things, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
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For the most part I agree with you - oftentimes when it comes to logic and strategy (even personal relationships) assuming something when an objective answer can't ever be known is beneficial for all parties involved. My post was only one word, as was essentially yours - I wanted to hear why you said "Yes".
I try to maintain a skeptical and rational attitude at all times. If something happens in the past, keep an eye out. I'm hardly knowledgeable on this subject, but I think it's clear that governments, for better or worse, lie to their people and other people as part of a plan to accomplish something, with the possibilities of such ranging from their own greed to their genuine caring for humanity. Am I making sense at all? This is not a topic I'm familiar discussing. ;)
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I just think it's a very naive and simultaneously dangerous attitude to take. I'm a Politics major and have spent a lot of time studying public policy, and when trying to orchestrate a successful policy initiative, public trust is always the problem because if the bureaucracy involved operates with perfect accountability then people complain that they're not operating efficiently enough. Then if they try to maximize efficiency then inevitably some accountability verification has to be thrown out the window so as to assure smoother operations, but people leap at the supposed "corruption" of the whole operation. It's a problem especially here in America, where government trust has tanked since the Vietnam War and only continues to dwindle.
Long story short, the unrealistic expectations of the public about how the government should work prevents the bureaucracy from getting anything meaningful done. I just feel like taking an attitude of automatically distrusting whatever the government does won't make it any easier for the government to earn that trust back, no matter what they do.
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What do you think of this new situation?
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110505/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_bin_laden
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Long story short, the unrealistic expectations of the public about how the government should work prevents the bureaucracy from getting anything meaningful done. I just feel like taking an attitude of automatically distrusting whatever the government does won't make it any easier for the government to earn that trust back, no matter what they do.
Seems to make sense. What would you propose to fix this problem? Furthermore, in what specific way does public distrust hinder effective action in America? Forgive me if I'm nosy, I'm only interested.
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(https://snip)
And yes, it's real. https://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-03/world/bin.laden.fake.photo_1_bin-photograph-photo-release?_s=PM:WORLD
:lol Holy crap, that is incredible.
Long story short, the unrealistic expectations of the public about how the government should work prevents the bureaucracy from getting anything meaningful done. I just feel like taking an attitude of automatically distrusting whatever the government does won't make it any easier for the government to earn that trust back, no matter what they do.
In theory, I agree, but this isn't the way it works in practice. It's not a binary tug-of-war of accountability and efficiency. And, for example, the U.S. government, both by design and track record, has provided plenty of very good reasons for us to be wary of its actions and intentions, in addition to proving to be both unaccountable AND inefficient. :lol
Not only that, but it's clear to me that politicians in this country have a very poor understanding of the issues they're supposedly trying to address. As a profession, they have got to be less qualified for their jobs than any other I can think of. Incompetence is as much or more of an issue as corruption.
Of course I think there's a balance between "automatically distrusting whatever the government does" and blind, naive submission, but if I'm going to err on one side, I'll do it on the side of looking out for my own ass.
-J
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Of course I think there's a balance between "automatically distrusting whatever the government does" and blind, naive submission, but if I'm going to err on one side, I'll do it on the side of looking out for my own ass.
-J
:tup
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What do you think of this new situation?
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110505/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_bin_laden
sure, we can save 3.2 billion annually, that would really help with the budget.
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(https://snip)
And yes, it's real. https://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-03/world/bin.laden.fake.photo_1_bin-photograph-photo-release?_s=PM:WORLD
:lol Holy crap, that is incredible.
Long story short, the unrealistic expectations of the public about how the government should work prevents the bureaucracy from getting anything meaningful done. I just feel like taking an attitude of automatically distrusting whatever the government does won't make it any easier for the government to earn that trust back, no matter what they do.
In theory, I agree, but this isn't the way it works in practice. It's not a binary tug-of-war of accountability and efficiency. And, for example, the U.S. government, both by design and track record, has provided plenty of very good reasons for us to be wary of its actions and intentions, in addition to proving to be both unaccountable AND inefficient. :lol
Not only that, but it's clear to me that politicians in this country have a very poor understanding of the issues they're supposedly trying to address. As a profession, they have got to be less qualified for their jobs than any other I can think of. Incompetence is as much or more of an issue as corruption.
Of course I think there's a balance between "automatically distrusting whatever the government does" and blind, naive submission, but if I'm going to err on one side, I'll do it on the side of looking out for my own ass.
-J
True, but again, maintaining that attitude on a national scale, as it has been, does make it very hard for government initiatives to get anything meaningful done (and not just because of external forces such as public discontent but even program executives that second-guess every line decision in the process), thus perpetuating that stereotype (if you can call it that).
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Of course I think there's a balance between "automatically distrusting whatever the government does" and blind, naive submission, but if I'm going to err on one side, I'll do it on the side of looking out for my own ass.
-J
:tup
Strangely enough, after I typed that I looked at it and thought "Goddamn it I sound like El Barto".
Long story short, the unrealistic expectations of the public about how the government should work prevents the bureaucracy from getting anything meaningful done. I just feel like taking an attitude of automatically distrusting whatever the government does won't make it any easier for the government to earn that trust back, no matter what they do.
In theory, I agree, but this isn't the way it works in practice. It's not a binary tug-of-war of accountability and efficiency. And, for example, the U.S. government, both by design and track record, has provided plenty of very good reasons for us to be wary of its actions and intentions, in addition to proving to be both unaccountable AND inefficient. :lol
Not only that, but it's clear to me that politicians in this country have a very poor understanding of the issues they're supposedly trying to address. As a profession, they have got to be less qualified for their jobs than any other I can think of. Incompetence is as much or more of an issue as corruption.
Of course I think there's a balance between "automatically distrusting whatever the government does" and blind, naive submission, but if I'm going to err on one side, I'll do it on the side of looking out for my own ass.
-J
True, but again, maintaining that attitude on a national scale, as it has been, does make it very hard for government initiatives to get anything meaningful done (and not just because of external forces such as public discontent but even program executives that second-guess every line decision in the process), thus perpetuating that stereotype (if you can call it that).
Yeah I'm sure it does contribute to the vicious cycle, in some capacity. But I also think that even if you could eradicate that attitude from the populace, all other things equal, there would be almost no change in the efficacy, quality, or efficiency of policy passed.
-J
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Of course I think there's a balance between "automatically distrusting whatever the government does" and blind, naive submission, but if I'm going to err on one side, I'll do it on the side of looking out for my own ass.
-J
:tup
:tup :tup
SD, I hear what you are saying. But it's also harder and harder to give the government the benefit of the doubt when, taking our federal government as the example, all three branches have been very visible poster children of corruption, scandal, and ineptitude for at least 20 years now.
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What is it about politics that makes people feel the need to use big words? :P
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What is it about politics that makes people feel the need to use big words? :P
What kind of big words...
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The
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Of course I think there's a balance between "automatically distrusting whatever the government does" and blind, naive submission, but if I'm going to err on one side, I'll do it on the side of looking out for my own ass.
-J
:tup
:tup :tup
SD, I hear what you are saying. But it's also harder and harder to give the government the benefit of the doubt when, taking our federal government as the example, all three branches have been very visible poster children of corruption, scandal, and ineptitude for at least 20 years now.
I mean I hate to say it bosk but you pretty much just proved my point. :P
And I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of corruption in the government today, but taking that attitude towards all policy initiatives stops the good programs in the same fell swoop as the corrupt ones.
That's probably why I'm so super-liberal today, because I feel like although there is certainly plenty of corruption in the government today, I think the best thing we can do is trust the government to do the right thing, and maybe they'll rise to the challenge of meeting those expectations. If they're always afraid of being picketed and shouted down, why should they try to do anything efficiently or effectively?
On the other hand if I prove wrong then by all means, begin the next chapter in American insurrection. :p However I will not join in until we've given our government a chance to prove our perceptions wrong and does something contrary, not if it merely fails to live up to our expectations.
Edit: Also you don't know real corruption till you've been to a place like Pakistan. I wouldn't know, but my suitemate would. :P
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Of course I think there's a balance between "automatically distrusting whatever the government does" and blind, naive submission, but if I'm going to err on one side, I'll do it on the side of looking out for my own ass.
-J
:tup
:tup :tup
SD, I hear what you are saying. But it's also harder and harder to give the government the benefit of the doubt when, taking our federal government as the example, all three branches have been very visible poster children of corruption, scandal, and ineptitude for at least 20 years now.
Said the attorney-at-law.
trollface pic goes here
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Of course I think there's a balance between "automatically distrusting whatever the government does" and blind, naive submission, but if I'm going to err on one side, I'll do it on the side of looking out for my own ass.
-J
:tup
:tup :tup
SD, I hear what you are saying. But it's also harder and harder to give the government the benefit of the doubt when, taking our federal government as the example, all three branches have been very visible poster children of corruption, scandal, and ineptitude for at least 20 years now.
Said the attorney-at-law.
(https://paradoxdgn.com/junk/avatars/trollface.jpg)
:tup
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:tup
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That's probably why I'm so super-liberal today, because I feel like although there is certainly plenty of corruption in the government today, I think the best thing we can do is trust the government to do the right thing, and maybe they'll rise to the challenge of meeting those expectations. If they're always afraid of being picketed and shouted down, why should they try to do anything efficiently or effectively?
Wait...WHAT? They are corrupt, so we should just get out of their way and leave them alone in the hopes they realize the errors of their ways and become uncorrupt? Is that really what you are saying? Because, if so, that is literally the most backwards piece of logic I have ever heard in my life. PLEASE tell me I misunderstood your post.
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Michael: My father's no different than any other powerful man (Kay laughs), any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president.
Kay: You know how naïve you sound?
Michael: Why?
Kay: Senators and presidents don't have men killed.
Michael: Oh, who's being naïve, Kay?
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That's probably why I'm so super-liberal today, because I feel like although there is certainly plenty of corruption in the government today, I think the best thing we can do is trust the government to do the right thing, and maybe they'll rise to the challenge of meeting those expectations. If they're always afraid of being picketed and shouted down, why should they try to do anything efficiently or effectively?
Wait...WHAT? They are corrupt, so we should just get out of their way and leave them alone in the hopes they realize the errors of their ways and become uncorrupt? Is that really what you are saying? Because, if so, that is literally the most backwards piece of logic I have ever heard in my life. PLEASE tell me I misunderstood your post.
You did. What I mean is that we shouldn't jump at the slightest hint of government intervention in something, or get all up in arms when a bureaucracy makes one small, reparable error. From case studies of policy initiatives reaching from the polio program of the 1930s (March of Pennies sound familiar?) to the swine flu panic of the mid-70s, the number one policy killer has been word gets out of something one policy actor messed up somewhere down the line and the media has a field day. The panic sets into the public who demand the government tear down the program, so that even if the program does somehow survive the outrage, the great care that was taken in logistical and legal matters ends up for nought as they spend more money trying to fix a blemish that turned into a catastrophe, so there's less money for the issue they tried to fix in the first place.
Also what program executives have learned from this public tendency is to just be overall more cautious in setting up their policies, but this results in overly excessive foresight which, although it creates basically foolproof accountability, also drains funds, logistics, and efficiency. j is right to say that efficiency and accountability can be mutually exclusive, but the nature of trying to organize policy programs in the American political system makes that next to impossible.
And don't get me started on health care. :P No seriously, don't.
tl;dr I'm not saying we should let the government do whatever the hell it wants and trust it to do the right thing; basically just cut them *some* slack so that there is at least some motivation to operate up to our expectations, and let's not start a panic if the program doesn't accomplish everything we wanted it to or if it doesn't do so completely.
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Michael: My father's no different than any other powerful man (Kay laughs), any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president.
Kay: You know how naïve you sound?
Michael: Why?
Kay: Senators and presidents don't have men killed.
Michael: Oh, who's being naïve, Kay?
:tup
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Michael: My father's no different than any other powerful man (Kay laughs), any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president.
Kay: You know how naïve you sound?
Michael: Why?
Kay: Senators and presidents don't have men killed.
Michael: Oh, who's being naïve, Kay?
So awesome.
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Just a funny thing I overheard yesterday, I was having a smoke with a couple of coworkers who were talking about Osama being buried at sea, and one of the guys said,"Yep, they Megatroned that fucker."
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Word is getting out that OBL purportedly was planning an attack on some trains or whatever. ALLLLL ABOARD TSA!
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Word is getting out that OBL purportedly was planning an attack on some trains or whatever. ALLLLL ABOARD TSA!
As someone who regularly rides trains, I can say that he would had had an easy job. Trains I have been on had literally no security in the slightest bit.
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Same with intercity buses, or any non-airline form of mass transport. They're impossible to defend against, especially when you factor in their vulnerability to easily available firearms. You just have to hope the bad guys are really dumb, and so far they have not disappointed.
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Did anyone hear about the Osama drink you can order at bars? Two shots and a splash
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Did anyone hear about the Osama drink you can order at bars? Two shots and a splash
actually, there's a bunch of them.
what personally pisses me off is that some people label it as "inappropriate".
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Word is getting out that OBL purportedly was planning an attack on some trains or whatever. ALLLLL ABOARD TSA!
As someone who regularly rides trains, I can say that he would had had an easy job. Trains I have been on had literally no security in the slightest bit.
The way it should be.
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Did anyone hear about the Osama drink you can order at bars? Two shots and a splash
actually, there's a bunch of them.
what personally pisses me off is that some people label it as "inappropriate".
I'd gladly order an Obama, lol. I have no problem ordering a Kamikaze, and Irish Car Bomb, a White Russian, or a Red Headed Slut.
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Word is getting out that OBL purportedly was planning an attack on some trains or whatever. ALLLLL ABOARD TSA!
As someone who regularly rides trains, I can say that he would had had an easy job. Trains I have been on had literally no security in the slightest bit.
The way it should be.
I'm inclined to agree. Buy your ticket, takes your chances. Unfortunately, The Man will see things differently. As I said in the TSA thread a while back, as soon as all of the airports have purchased their $150k body scanners, they'll have to find a new threat to start protecting us against. As long as protecting a bunch of scared-shitless Americans is a for profit enterprise, you can expect a new danger to emerge every time they "finish" protecting us from the last.
I guarangoddamntee you that there are a lot of people just praying there's a terrorist attack on a train or a Greyhound bus. When it happens, you'll here the collective KERCHING! long before you here any sirens.
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El Barto, when did you make that transition to becoming super-cynical? I don't remember you being that way.
I find your scenario unconvincing. The trick about planes is, they are essentially the only mode of transportation that even allows for the kind of security regulation we see there. You have these heavily centralized departing/arrival spots (aka airports), and neither trains nor buses have that. Both trains and buses stop and pick up customers at what essentially amounts to glorified concrete platforms, all over the place. You could never implement anything rigorous in terms of security without completely killing the margin and thus killing the business.
If the terrorists ever target buses or trains, I think the public would finally have to come to grips with the exceedingly small likelihood of yourself becoming a victim of it. You are way more likely to die of a car crash than a terrorist attack.
rumborak
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I agree about the unlikelihood of actually securing trains and stations. However, I don't think that'll stop people from trying when they have a huge financial interest in doing so. You're also way more likely do die in a car crash on you way to the airport than you are to be blown up by terrorists, but it hasn't stopped them from spending a gazillion dollars on a bogus security system that half the people think is a peachy idea. Lots of things that scare the bejeezus out of people are completely irrational, terrorism being one of them, but that doesn't really matter. Irrationality is a key component of capitalism.
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Maybe the fear of terrorism down in Texas is irrational. But the fear of it in NYC is not. Terrorist attacks have happened here, and a few attempts were thwarted recently. Some guy tried to blow up a car bomb in Times Square not too long ago.
So after this whole Osama thing happened, I would be lying to you if I wasn't a bit nervous riding the subway through the times square area. It's just kind of always in the back of your mind here because everyone knows NYC is a target.
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I can understand New Yorkers being more concerned about terrorism than Dallasites (although there was an alleged plot broken up down here, as well), but I'd consider the paranoia up there to be quite irrational. While you are more likely to be the target of an attack, the odds are still far greater that you'll be run over by a taxi or stabbed by some asshole for the $12 in your wallet.
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You're also way more likely do die in a car crash on you way to the airport than you are to be blown up by terrorists, but it hasn't stopped them from spending a gazillion dollars on a bogus security system that half the people think is a peachy idea. Lots of things that scare the bejeezus out of people are completely irrational, terrorism being one of them, but that doesn't really matter. Irrationality is a key component of capitalism.
I think one major factor is also that "death by flying" scares a lot of people per se. They're trying to assuage the already existing fears by plugging all that stuff in there.
rumborak
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Talked with a Pakistani friend today. Interesting to hear her perspective! She's told me the current opinion in Pakistan is that this is all an elaborate fairy tale. I'm not sure I agree with all or even most of what she said, but the fact that the information hasn't been released doesn't really quell this kind of thinking.
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Did anyone hear about the Osama drink you can order at bars? Two shots and a splash
actually, there's a bunch of them.
what personally pisses me off is that some people label it as "inappropriate".
I'd gladly order an Obama, lol. I have no problem ordering a Kamikaze, and Irish Car Bomb, a White Russian, or a Red Headed Slut.
Whats an Obama?
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Talked with a Pakistani friend today. Interesting to hear her perspective! She's told me the current opinion in Pakistan is that this is all an elaborate fairy tale. I'm not sure I agree with all or even most of what she said, but the fact that the information hasn't been released doesn't really quell this kind of thinking.
You mean the info in hasn't been released in Pakistan?
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No, I mean the pictures and stuff like that.
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Did anyone hear about the Osama drink you can order at bars? Two shots and a splash
actually, there's a bunch of them.
what personally pisses me off is that some people label it as "inappropriate".
I'd gladly order an Obama, lol. I have no problem ordering a Kamikaze, and Irish Car Bomb, a White Russian, or a Red Headed Slut.
Whats an Obama?
Shit. Meant to say Osama. My fingers aren't used to replacing the B with an S.
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Nonsense. You type BS pretty much nonstop on this forum, Chino.
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No, I mean the pictures and stuff like that.
Don't see how the pictures would change anything. Why would we make this up? If Osama came out with a new tape saying he was alive, we'd be so screwed. I wonder if they aren't getting all the details in Pakistan. There is no reason to have any doubt about what happened anymore.
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I can understand New Yorkers being more concerned about terrorism than Dallasites (although there was an alleged plot broken up down here, as well), but I'd consider the paranoia up there to be quite irrational. While you are more likely to be the target of an attack, the odds are still far greater that you'll be run over by a taxi or stabbed by some asshole for the $12 in your wallet.
I've never really discussed this with anyone here, but last year on Christmas, does everyone remember the underwear bomber whose failed bomb went off seven minutes from landing in Detroit? The one that came from England or France or something?
The night just before that, my family and I were at the airport waiting for a flight into France. At the security checkpoint there was a guy who they just took a look at his passport and boarding pass and then just let him go, and we later saw him at our gate. Just as the plane was boarding, the scanner person also looked him over because apparently she wasn't satisfied by his papers. They took him aside and had a cop guide him to a security room, and we never saw him on the flight.
To this day I'm convinced that this wasn't a random coincidence, that this guy and the underwear bomber were coordinating a two-way attack for December 25th, in which one would blow himself up arriving in Detroit from Europe, and the one on our plane was going to do the opposite.
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Schumer Proposes 'No Ride' List for Train Travelers (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/09/schumer-proposes-ride-list-train-travelers/)
A "glaring loophole" in security of the nation's rail system demands that Amtrak begin much tougher scrutiny of passengers before boarding, New York Sen. Chuck Schumer said Monday, proposing a "no ride" list similar to airlines' "no fly" lists.
Schumer suggested a new screening process would be relatively simple to implement. Passengers already have to give their name when purchasing tickets for the train, but Schumer's plan would call for riders to show photo ID before boarding. The IDs would be compared to the name on their ticket and matched against a list of known or suspected terrorists.
Sounds like a pretty good first step. Get the travelers used to waiting in a line. You can increase the amount of bullshit gradually once people realize they can't just hop on board anymore.
The important thing: keep citizens jumping through hoops so they'll know who's in charge, and insure a steady market for our newest, bestest buddies, the security industry.
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AFAIK, the only trains that have security in the Western world are the Eurostars, and that's because they go through the Chunnel.
Amtrak's not going to like security measures being implemented. The only thing worse for ridership would be an actual attack.
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Barto,
Your argument makes no sense. Amtrak is a private company. What benefit do they get by making security tighter? Why would they want to buy more and more security equipment and personnel? It would just cut into their bottom line.
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Well, for one thing I believe AMTRAK is Uncle Sammy's property. More importantly, I suspect that rail travel will find itself under the thumb of DHS. They won't be allowed to ignore public safety anymore than the airlines are allowed to. I bet that if AA had it's way, they'd be doing security a whole lot better than The Man is.
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I can understand New Yorkers being more concerned about terrorism than Dallasites (although there was an alleged plot broken up down here, as well), but I'd consider the paranoia up there to be quite irrational. While you are more likely to be the target of an attack, the odds are still far greater that you'll be run over by a taxi or stabbed by some asshole for the $12 in your wallet.
I've never really discussed this with anyone here, but last year on Christmas, does everyone remember the underwear bomber whose failed bomb went off seven minutes from landing in Detroit? The one that came from England or France or something?
The night just before that, my family and I were at the airport waiting for a flight into France. At the security checkpoint there was a guy who they just took a look at his passport and boarding pass and then just let him go, and we later saw him at our gate. Just as the plane was boarding, the scanner person also looked him over because apparently she wasn't satisfied by his papers. They took him aside and had a cop guide him to a security room, and we never saw him on the flight.
To this day I'm convinced that this wasn't a random coincidence, that this guy and the underwear bomber were coordinating a two-way attack for December 25th, in which one would blow himself up arriving in Detroit from Europe, and the one on our plane was going to do the opposite.
that's some scary sh*t, right there.
the thing is, for security personnel to do something like that, something was going on, trust me. they don't do that to just any random person. props to the airport security on that one.
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Well, for one thing I believe AMTRAK is Uncle Sammy's property. More importantly, I suspect that rail travel will find itself under the thumb of DHS. They won't be allowed to ignore public safety anymore than the airlines are allowed to. I bet that if AA had it's way, they'd be doing security a whole lot better than The Man is.
Oh wow I didn't realize the government owned Amtrak. Ok now your point makes a lot more sense.
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I can understand New Yorkers being more concerned about terrorism than Dallasites (although there was an alleged plot broken up down here, as well), but I'd consider the paranoia up there to be quite irrational. While you are more likely to be the target of an attack, the odds are still far greater that you'll be run over by a taxi or stabbed by some asshole for the $12 in your wallet.
I've never really discussed this with anyone here, but last year on Christmas, does everyone remember the underwear bomber whose failed bomb went off seven minutes from landing in Detroit? The one that came from England or France or something?
The night just before that, my family and I were at the airport waiting for a flight into France. At the security checkpoint there was a guy who they just took a look at his passport and boarding pass and then just let him go, and we later saw him at our gate. Just as the plane was boarding, the scanner person also looked him over because apparently she wasn't satisfied by his papers. They took him aside and had a cop guide him to a security room, and we never saw him on the flight.
To this day I'm convinced that this wasn't a random coincidence, that this guy and the underwear bomber were coordinating a two-way attack for December 25th, in which one would blow himself up arriving in Detroit from Europe, and the one on our plane was going to do the opposite.
that's some scary sh*t, right there.
the thing is, for security personnel to do something like that, something was going on, trust me. they don't do that to just any random person. props to the airport security on that one.
All I can say is I'm glad they decided to pull the guy off the flight before he was actually on the plane.
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Well, for one thing I believe AMTRAK is Uncle Sammy's property. More importantly, I suspect that rail travel will find itself under the thumb of DHS. They won't be allowed to ignore public safety anymore than the airlines are allowed to. I bet that if AA had it's way, they'd be doing security a whole lot better than The Man is.
Oh wow I didn't realize the government owned Amtrak. Ok now your point makes a lot more sense.
Yeah, they're one of those odd entities that are not a branch of the government but are actually owned by the government.
From wikipedia (and I have personal knowledge that this is accurate):
The National Railroad Passenger Corporation, doing business as Amtrak (reporting mark AMTK), is a government-owned corporation that was organized on May 1, 1971, to provide intercity passenger train service in the United States. "Amtrak" is a portmanteau of the words "America" and "track". It is headquartered at Union Station in Washington, D.C.
All of Amtrak's preferred stock is owned by the U.S. federal government. The members of its board of directors are appointed by the President of the United States and are subject to confirmation by the United States Senate. Common stock was issued in 1971 to railroads that contributed capital and equipment; these shares convey almost no benefits but their current holders declined a 2002 buy-out offer by Amtrak.
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Canada's VIA Rail has an even stranger legal position, in that it was not created via legislation in Parliament but by an order by the Privy Council.
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Heard about Chuck's Amtrak proposal last night. Do other countries have to deal with this security theater nonsense?
Also let's make sure we're all aware that OBL didn't have an actual plan to do this train-track tampering.
From an NYT article:
"But officials emphasized that the information was both dated and vague, calling it "aspirational" and saying there was no evidence the discussion of rail attacks had moved beyond the conceptual stage."
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/06/world/asia/06intel.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=derail%20train%20bin%20laden&st=cse
So a top terrorist was talking about blowing up things other than planes? Shocking revelation.
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Heard about Chuck's Amtrak proposal last night. Do other countries have to deal with this security theater nonsense?
Also let's make sure we're all aware that OBL didn't have an actual plan to do this train-track tampering.
From an NYT article:
"But officials emphasized that the information was both dated and vague, calling it "aspirational" and saying there was no evidence the discussion of rail attacks had moved beyond the conceptual stage."
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/06/world/asia/06intel.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=derail%20train%20bin%20laden&st=cse
So a top terrorist was talking about blowing up things other than planes? Shocking revelation.
No, but there are also holes where there shouldn't be. The aforementioned underwear bomber, for example, got onto his flight because there is zero security in Ghana, and then in London you can get through scot-free as long as you stay inside the terminal.
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Well, for one thing I believe AMTRAK is Uncle Sammy's property. More importantly, I suspect that rail travel will find itself under the thumb of DHS. They won't be allowed to ignore public safety anymore than the airlines are allowed to. I bet that if AA had it's way, they'd be doing security a whole lot better than The Man is.
Oh wow I didn't realize the government owned Amtrak. Ok now your point makes a lot more sense.
Yeah, they're one of those odd entities that are not a branch of the government but are actually owned by the government.
Is it similar to the whole GM deal?
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Heard about Chuck's Amtrak proposal last night. Do other countries have to deal with this security theater nonsense?
If you're referring to trains, not that I ever saw. You run into the terminal and onto your train in seconds. That's a huge part of the appeal. Plus, as Rumborak said earlier, most of the train depots are just platforms in the middle of nowhere.
No, but there are also holes where there shouldn't be. The aforementioned underwear bomber, for example, got onto his flight because there is zero security in Ghana, and then in London you can get through scot-free as long as you stay inside the terminal.
Remember that the so-called underwear bomber could have waltzed right through TSA at JFK and nobody would have noticed his package. Even today, they're pretty upfront that the body scanners probably wouldn't have picked it up (at least not the relevant package).
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Remember that the so-called underwear bomber could have waltzed right through TSA at JFK and nobody would have noticed his package. Even today, they're pretty upfront that the body scanners probably wouldn't have picked it up (at least not the relevant package).
don't even get me started on that conspiracy theory ridden incident.
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As someone who takes the train quite frequently (about once a month or more) I'd be very, very pissed if they implemented bullshit security at train stations.
The main thing I enjoy about trains is how simple they are. You just buy your ticket and hop on, no issues. It's so convenient.
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Heard about Chuck's Amtrak proposal last night. Do other countries have to deal with this security theater nonsense?
If you're referring to trains, not that I ever saw. You run into the terminal and onto your train in seconds. That's a huge part of the appeal. Plus, as Rumborak said earlier, most of the train depots are just platforms in the middle of nowhere.
When I took the eurostar both to and from Brussels last month I had to go through security. Not much, just put your bags on an x-ray and go through a metal detector, but still the most security I'd ever seen at a train station.
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Getting onto the bullet train in Japan was one of the most elaborate procedures I've ever undergone.
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The kid next to me in the computer lab is playing Counter Strike and I think hes playing a custom map that's suppose to be Bin Laden's hideout.
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Well, Al-Qaeda has already made their declarations. How long do you think until they try and make an attempt to attack the US? :( or do you think all the money the government has invested will pay off.
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Well, Al-Qaeda has already made their declarations. How long do you think until they try and make an attempt to attack the US? :( or do you think all the money the government has invested will pay off.
Link?
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Another attack against post-9/11 America was inevitable even before Osama bin Laden was killed.
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Apparently one of the candidates for Al-Qaeda chief is a metalhead. Woot! :D
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Apparently one of the candidates for Al-Qaeda chief is a metalhead. Woot! :D
When I googled Al Qaeda and Metal this was the first result...
https://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=local&newsid=237885
wtf?
And this was all I could find on the real story
https://blogs.ocweekly.com/heardmentality/2011/05/adam_gadahn_loves_death_metal.php
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Apparently one of the candidates for Al-Qaeda chief is a metalhead. Woot! :D
What the fuck?
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Rathma. whoa.
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(https://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/e76eda9a-c2e6-49be-93d7-80590ee8e6c7.jpg)
Apparently the dude used to have his own band :o
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You realize that you are talking about the next leader of a terrorist organization? One that is going to be planning and acting to kill as many innocent people as they possibly can. Yet here you are talking like the guy is going to be your next roomate. Oh he loves death metal we are totally a match!!
FYI. If you think a terrorist has even .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of coolness, WE ARE NOT A MATCH.
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The guy they're talking about is Azzam the American. That last part pretty much makes him unqualified for the gig, I suspect. He's from Orange County, converted in the 90s and moved to Pakistan. He's kind of the rising star in al Qaeda, and as such, is the first American charged with treason since WWII (I think). He's a pretty popular guy in the movement, but I doubt they'd hand him the keys to the car. Honestly, I doubt they'll appoint a new "leader" at all.
You realize that you are talking about the next leader of a terrorist organization? One that is going to be planning and acting to kill as many innocent people as they possibly can. Yet here you are talking like the guy is going to be your next roomate. Oh he loves death metal we are totally a match!!
FYI. If you think a terrorist has even .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of coolness, WE ARE NOT A MATCH.
A little melodramatic. Plenty of people could make a similar argument about the last 6 presidents.
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??? Bill Clinton liked death metal?
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I remember Al Gore being a megadeath fan.
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Bush was a Dream Theatre fan.
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I remember Al Gore being a megadeath fan.
He invented Megadeath.
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You realize that you are talking about the next leader of a terrorist organization? One that is going to be planning and acting to kill as many innocent people as they possibly can.
I find it hard to believe that Al Qaeda's strategy is just to kill as many people as possible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions or anything, just saying that it seems like you're misidentifying their intent. I think there are organizations that are much more evil and a threat to mankind than Al Qaeda.
ITT: People who can't spell Megadeth
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Sorry, Rathma, I don't pay attention to terrible music ;)
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Oops! On the spelling. But I find the ideology of a group like Al Qaeda more of a threat then a country. So I still find them very high on the list.
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He raises an interesting point, though. I'd say that their ideology is that of a complete disregard for American lives rather than murder. The targets on 911 were the buildings as symbols. Killing people was necessary to drive the message on home, but I don't think they cared one way or another about who or how many.
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This could be said even about us too. Look at Timothy McVeigh and his ideology. This is the real danger to all mankind. Again, it all leads to extremist.
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He raises an interesting point, though. I'd say that their ideology is that of a complete disregard for American lives rather than murder. The targets on 911 were the buildings as symbols. Killing people was necessary to drive the message on home, but I don't think they cared one way or another about who or how many.
Then why didn't they take out the statue of liberty if they were all about symbols? They wanted people dead. They want to kill people to cause fear. Why would we fear terrorists if they weren't targeting people. If no one ever died from terrorist attacks, it'd just be vandalism.
EDIT:
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden
From his diary:
"Strike smaller cities, bin Laden suggested. Target trains as well as planes. If possible, strike on significant dates, such as the Fourth of July and the upcoming 10th anniversary of the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Above all, kill as many Americans as possible in a single attack."
Didn't care about killing Americans my ass.
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I think their main goal was to change American foreign policy, or to bring attention to it. Al Qaeda isn't the only organization that murders to accomplish their goals. Most governments do this. Then again, I'm still not sure whether Al Qaeda's motives are more religious or more political (if it's even meaningful to try to separate the two).
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He raises an interesting point, though. I'd say that their ideology is that of a complete disregard for American lives rather than murder. The targets on 911 were the buildings as symbols. Killing people was necessary to drive the message on home, but I don't think they cared one way or another about who or how many.
Then why didn't they take out the statue of liberty if they were all about symbols? They wanted people dead. They want to kill people to cause fear. Why would we fear terrorists if they weren't targeting people. If no one ever died from terrorist attacks, it'd just be vandalism.
EDIT:
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden
From his diary:
"Strike smaller cities, bin Laden suggested. Target trains as well as planes. If possible, strike on significant dates, such as the Fourth of July and the upcoming 10th anniversary of the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Above all, kill as many Americans as possible in a single attack."
Didn't care about killing Americans my ass.
I think what is being discussed is the whether killing Americans was the end, or a means to an end. The latter is what seems to be indicated by bin Laden's plans, and you seem to be arguing that it is the former.
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As I said in my post, killing was necessary, but like Doc Millahh said, it was probably not an end unto itself.
Honestly, if body count was their primary concern, they really bungled their choice of targets. They had no way of expecting that the towers would actually collapse. That was just good fortune [on their part]. They couldn't have had much expectation of actually damaging the Pentagon very much, at all. The Capital could have been ugly [from the body count POV, at least], and in that instance, it would have been select casualties that they were after. Killing a big chunk of Congress would have been much more appealing to them (and us, for that matter) than a bunch of secretaries and bankers.
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I agree that it's more about the idea behing it. But the idea is naturally reinforced a lot if a ton of people die when conveying it.
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They had no way of expecting that the towers would actually collapse. That was just good fortune [on their part].
Not saying you're wrong, but Osama released a video shortly after 9/11 that said they anticipated the towers to collapse down to the point of impact, but never thought they would come completely down.
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I think I remember that. Wasn't it from an interview though?
EDIT: Found it. Excerpt:
-Blabbermouth: So, Osama, would you say the last tour was a success?
-OBL: Oh, yes. Completely. It exceeded out expectations considerably.
-Blabbermouth: And the fans responded well.
-OBL: Yes, yes. They did. You know, the other guys in the band had some trepidation before we went out. But once we were out on the road, the response was just tremendous.
-Blabbermouth: Now you had some issue with the pyrotechnics on the tour--
-OBL: Well, not "issues" actually ON the tour. It was- Well, let me back up. At the start, we let our tour manager handle it. And we found out he hired the same pyro compnay that Metallica used on the GNR stadium tour. So Mahmoud was like, "uh...you remember what happened to James Hetfield on that tour, right?"
-Blabbermouth: So that was a no go.
-OBL: Yeah, and we really had to scramble to get something in place at the last minute. And we were nervous because we didn't have time to even rehearse with it before the first show, so we didn't even know if it would look right with our stage show or anything.
-Blabbermouth: So you actually went onstage without even seeing it first?
-OBL: Oh yeah, it was crazy. It was an outdoor show, and we're onstage with the city skyline behind us.
-Blabbermouth: And this is the New York City show, right?
-OBL: Oh, I'm sorry, yeah. So we're coming to the end of our set, right? I hit my open drop D power chord to end the last song, and Omar is going nuts on this huge tom roll for the "big rock & roll ending," waiting for the big pyro effect we had planned and we don't even know if it's going to work.
-Blabbermouth: So how was it supposed to go?
-OBL: We just wanted these two big fireballs to explode right behind the stage so it would look like the buildings behind us were on fire, right? So we're doing our big ending, right? And the pyro crew actually has planes fly right into the f***ing buildings!
-Blabbermouth: And how did the fans react?
-OBL: Dude, it was HUGE! I mean, imagine, you've got our guitars coming at you at about a million decibels, and then--BOOM! The friggin' buildings just explode! The fans were loving it. Yeah, I mean, I'd say it was a huge success.
The OBL Crew are currently in studio in an indisclosed location somewhere along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border working on their as yet untitled follow-up album.