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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 05:36:10 AM

Title: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 05:36:10 AM
We are having one of the most severe winters ever. The last few last have brought us unprecedented catastrophic weather, from tsunamis to earthquakes, to mudslides, etc.
Then you look at whats taking place globally. The revolution in the middle east should give people some pause when thinking about the future. Never seen anything like whats taking place over there these recent times.
Europe is in financial crisis.
You continue to hear talk of a one world currency to put things on a level playing field.
The US is experiencing civil unrest it hasn't seen in years. A country divided in a way I have never experienced in my lifetime.
An economy teetering on collapse. It like when things seem like they may improve we take one step forward two steps back
When Christians speak of the end times, all these things are what they warn of, and I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff.
I'm sure many we reason it all away, but I have never felt such a heavy feeling inside as I do now when I think about the future. I don't feel good about what lies ahead.
Perhaps someone can make me feel better about it all? Perhaps I am over reacting?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 10, 2011, 06:05:54 AM
No, depends, yes.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on March 10, 2011, 06:06:45 AM
You continue to hear talk of a one world currency to put things on a level playing field.

Huh?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 06:23:41 AM
You continue to hear talk of a one world currency to put things on a level playing field.

Huh?
I have heard people on news shows say if we switch to one currency it will balance the global economy better. Its just something I've heard.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 10, 2011, 06:26:06 AM
This thread makes no sense to me.  Everything mentioned in the OP is not unique, or sensationalized (one currency?). 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 06:32:48 AM
This thread makes no sense to me.  Everything mentioned in the OP is not unique, or sensationalized (one currency?). 
Then you don't agree. I think we's in trouble.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Philawallafox on March 10, 2011, 06:54:42 AM
Biblically speaking we've been in the end times since Jesus left. So, Yes.

The world's pretty messed up at the moment isn't it? In reference to that I'll point you to Romans 8:22-23
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: lordxizor on March 10, 2011, 06:59:00 AM
No, I think we're just in yet another troubled time in human history. These seem to come at least once a century, so I know we'll ride through it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: j on March 10, 2011, 07:03:32 AM
Yeah it seems like everyone throughout the past 2000 years has thought they were going to live to see the end of days.  My money says humanity as a whole will long outlive all of us, though we may play a part in its eventual demise.

-J
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: zerogravityfat on March 10, 2011, 07:04:57 AM
compared to wwII, this is jackshit, so if it didn't happen then, i doubt you can think it will happen now.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 07:24:38 AM
" But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,  unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,  traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,  having a form of godliness but denying its power."         2nd Timothy 3:1-5

Sounds pretty familiar if you ask me.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 07:27:09 AM
" But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,  unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,  traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,  having a form of godliness but denying its power."         2nd Timothy 3:1-5

Sounds pretty familiar if you ask me.
Powerful stuff.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: lordxizor on March 10, 2011, 08:05:27 AM
Definitely sounds familiar, but I'd guess if you went back over the last 2000 years, it would sound familiar pretty much all the time.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 10, 2011, 08:06:13 AM
" But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,  unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,  traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,  having a form of godliness but denying its power."         2nd Timothy 3:1-5

Sounds pretty familiar if you ask me.

I'm sure if you asked many people from every time in the last 2000 years they'd say the same.

EDIT: Ninja'd.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: El Barto on March 10, 2011, 08:16:13 AM
If by "We" you mean Americans, then I suspect we probably are.  If you mean humanity, nah, plenty of time left barring something unforeseen and completely unrelated to current events. 

I'd tell you to kick back and enjoy the spectacle,  the George Carlin approach that I rather enjoy, but I know you have a kiddo which makes your take rather different. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 08:17:42 AM
Definitely sounds familiar, but I'd guess if you went back over the last 2000 years, it would sound familiar pretty much all the time.
I can only look at things through the scope of what I've seen, and things are different now then when I was a kid, and not in a good way. That's just how I see things.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 10, 2011, 08:20:49 AM
Definitely sounds familiar, but I'd guess if you went back over the last 2000 years, it would sound familiar pretty much all the time.
I can only look at things through the scope of what I've seen, and things are different now then when I was a kid, and not in a good way. That's just how I see things.

But everyone says that.  It's the effect of nostalgia and selective memory. Most people in the States would tell you that crime has increased since they were a child too, but it would be false.

If you had asked Jesus whether or not the End Times were imminent, he would've said yes.  No one knows the future, people are ignorant of the past, and as a result have a skewed perception of the present. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 08:25:16 AM
Definitely sounds familiar, but I'd guess if you went back over the last 2000 years, it would sound familiar pretty much all the time.
I can only look at things through the scope of what I've seen, and things are different now then when I was a kid, and not in a good way. That's just how I see things.

But everyone says that.  It's the effect of nostalgia and selective memory. Most people in the States would tell you that crime has increased since they were a child too, but it would be false.

If you had asked Jesus whether or not the End Times were imminent, he would've said yes.  No one knows the future, people are ignorant of the past, and as a result have a skewed perception of the present. 
Maybe your right, but I just don't like the scope of whats happening in every respect these days. I want to feel like the darkness is going to lift. I hope it does soon.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 10, 2011, 08:37:02 AM
Think of it like this; there is probably no better life to live in this region of our galaxy than the life of a person in the early 21st century of the Western world.  You can look at the negatives, but the fact is people live longer, are richer, suffer from less crime and war, are more tolerant and open, etc.  Considering all the darker moments in human history, from our emergence from the great apes, struggling to survive, to the population crunch in the last ice age, to the struggle of life in the earliest civilizations, to the violent and brutal conflicts that marked the history of the Fertile Crescent, to the Mongols, or the famines, or the plagues, or more recently the world wars, our existence here and now is a paradise.  I've had the extreme good fortune to be born into a financially secure family who loved me.  I live in one of the best places in the world, have had the opportunity to pursue higher education, have my health (and security even if I fall ill or hurt myself), and all sorts of opportunities open to me in my future.  I have no cause to bitch.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 10, 2011, 08:46:20 AM
People want to be at the end of times. The OP confirms it again. As zgf pointed out, WWII wasn't it, and the current time are nothing to WWII. Or the Spanish Flu in 1918. Or the plague.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 08:46:29 AM
Definitely sounds familiar, but I'd guess if you went back over the last 2000 years, it would sound familiar pretty much all the time.
I agree that there have been periods of time throughout history where 'the end times' were deemed certain to be upon them. I'm sure if you were Jewish alive during WWII you'd have guaranteed that was the end times. I think you can thumb through the Bible or any other spiritual book and cherry pick scripture to fit 'your' opinion. It is done alot. But for me, when I look at the overall atmosphere of American culture, the happenings in the Middle East, the obivous changes and irritation that our planet is in the midst of at the moment.....I'll just say that I am thankful to be secure in my faith.  
  
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 10, 2011, 08:48:18 AM
Maybe I'm missing something. The movement in the Middle East are currently all about overthrowing bad regimes. Is that the end of times, that people do the right thing?

Again, the real question is, why do you *want* it to be the end of times?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 10, 2011, 08:48:44 AM
Definitely sounds familiar, but I'd guess if you went back over the last 2000 years, it would sound familiar pretty much all the time.
I agree that there have been periods of time throughout history where 'the end times' were deemed certain to be upon them. I'm sure if you were Jewish alive during WWII you'd have guaranteed that was the end times. I think you can thumb through the Bible or any other spiritual book and cherry pick scripture to fit 'your' opinion. It is done alot. But for me, when I look at the overall atmosphere of American culture, the happenings in the Middle East, the obivous changes and irritation that our planet is in the midst of at the moment.....I'll just say that I am thankful to be secure in my faith.  
  

What is this supposed to mean?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 09:37:50 AM
@GuineaPig

I am referring to the apparent increase in earthquakes, landslides, wild fires, flooding....natural disasters in general. I'm still unsure though if there has indeed been an increase in activity of these things or if the 24 hour news cycle has just made it appear to be so. But the timing of either the high reportage or actual increase coupled with all of the civil and cultural unrest and strife that is happening....it is easy to start to connect the dots. Especially if you are looking for it. As rumborak said, there are alot of people out there who 'want' it to be the end times just so they can say I told you so. I don't think those people understand just what that means if it 'truly' is the end times....they make want to take that wish back if they did.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 10, 2011, 09:38:53 AM
We've been living in the end times since we started walking upright.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 10, 2011, 09:42:56 AM
Definitely sounds familiar, but I'd guess if you went back over the last 2000 years, it would sound familiar pretty much all the time.
I can only look at things through the scope of what I've seen, and things are different now then when I was a kid, and not in a good way. That's just how I see things.

Well, it does help to pick up a book. That's how people learn about things that were before their time.

Especially read up on the bubonic plague.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 10, 2011, 09:49:27 AM
@GuineaPig

I am referring to the apparent increase in earthquakes, landslides, wild fires, flooding....natural disasters in general. I'm still unsure though if there has indeed been an increase in activity of these things or if the 24 hour news cycle has just made it appear to be so. But the timing of either the high reportage or actual increase coupled with all of the civil and cultural unrest and strife that is happening....it is easy to start to connect the dots. Especially if you are looking for it. As rumborak said, there are alot of people out there who 'want' it to be the end times just so they can say I told you so. I don't think those people understand just what that means if it 'truly' is the end times....they make want to take that wish back if they did.

Bingo.  With the exception of earthquakes (which for obvious reasons can't be controlled) all the other examples you cited human beings take direct and typically effective action to reduce their possibility/effect.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 09:51:46 AM
Maybe I'm missing something. The movement in the Middle East are currently all about overthrowing bad regimes. Is that the end of times, that people do the right thing?

Again, the real question is, why do you *want* it to be the end of times?

rumborak

From primarily being a 'lurker' in the P/R I have gotten the impression that you are not a 'religious' person. I may be wrong..I don't know for sure. Let me clarify that I don't 'want' it to be the end times. I am a man of faith and understand what that would entail and I'd just prefer to avoid that whole scenario.
  But what you and other non-religious pragmatic thinking people see as a revolution overthrowing horrible regimes, which outwardly it indeed is and is a great thing, I view in a different light. I subscribe to a more spiritual outlook when trying to understand what is going on in the world. As I believe in God that also makes it certain that there is a devil, and that devil is at war with mankind. And his battle ground is not in the physical realm but in the spiritual. So when I see things happening like the atmosphere that has developed in the Middle East, I try and understand how the devil is benefiting from it. Is this simple minded? From my ‘lurking’ experience I’d say the majority of the P/R regulars will say certainly. But it is how I tend to view and assess the world.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 10, 2011, 09:58:18 AM
 But what you and other non-religious pragmatic thinking people see as a revolution overthrowing horrible regimes, which outwardly it indeed is and is a great thing, I view in a different light. I subscribe to a more spiritual outlook when trying to understand what is going on in the world. As I believe in God that also makes it certain that there is a devil, and that devil is at war with mankind. And his battle ground is not in the physical realm but in the spiritual. So when I see things happening like the atmosphere that has developed in the Middle East, I try and understand how the devil is benefiting from it. Is this simple minded? From my ‘lurking’ experience I’d say the majority of the P/R regulars will say certainly. But it is how I tend to view and assess the world.

Do you realize that the country you live in yourself has had the exact same violent past? That the general public rose up against their oppressors, the Brits?
How did the devil benefit from the Constitution?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: yeshaberto on March 10, 2011, 10:01:25 AM
according to the NT, the end will come like a thief in the night.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 10:24:21 AM
 But what you and other non-religious pragmatic thinking people see as a revolution overthrowing horrible regimes, which outwardly it indeed is and is a great thing, I view in a different light. I subscribe to a more spiritual outlook when trying to understand what is going on in the world. As I believe in God that also makes it certain that there is a devil, and that devil is at war with mankind. And his battle ground is not in the physical realm but in the spiritual. So when I see things happening like the atmosphere that has developed in the Middle East, I try and understand how the devil is benefiting from it. Is this simple minded? From my ‘lurking’ experience I’d say the majority of the P/R regulars will say certainly. But it is how I tend to view and assess the world.

Do you realize that the country you live in yourself has had the exact same violent past? That the general public rose up against their oppressors, the Brits?
How did the devil benefit from the Constitution?

rumborak

Really? That’s how America was formed? I had no idea. I can only hope to assume that you habitually post these type of responses to develop a deeper discussion and offer an view perhaps overlooked. Otherwise it often appears that you are very condescending to those who don’t ‘think’ like you. And as you mentioned, America like every other nation or country that has ever has had ever existed, has had a violent past. Maybe the devil got off on the fact he could watch a couple hundred years of brutal slavery take place on a new continent? Maybe he thought it’d be neat to witness an atom bomb be dropped on a few hundred thousand people? 
     There are certainly an assortment of horrid instances in America’s history that the devil would surely have benefitted from. But there are equally a multitude of fantastic things that has come from America becoming a country that typify the qualities of God. You speak of plagues and disease…well America has been and will continue to be on the forefront of developing vaccines and cures for the plagues of the world. America is always first in line to donate money/aide/ and any type of help when a country or nation has faced an epidemic or natural disaster. It would be simple to continue to cite further examples but that is a topic for another thread.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: 7StringedBeast on March 10, 2011, 10:31:43 AM
I don't mean to be rude, but, Rumby and Miller, it really isn't worth fighting over this.  I mean, one of you believes and the other doesn't.  You both won't be able to make the other see "the light".  I see this a lot in these religious debates. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on March 10, 2011, 10:33:23 AM
As I believe in God that also makes it certain that there is a devil

Why does one necessitate the other?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 10:42:47 AM
I don't mean to be rude, but, Rumby and Miller, it really isn't worth fighting over this.  I mean, one of you believes and the other doesn't.  You both won't be able to make the other see "the light".  I see this a lot in these religious debates. 
I agree and certainly am not trying to evangelize or convert rumborak or anyone in P/R. As I stated earlier, I am largely a lurker in P/R because it is apparent to me that my views are definately in the minority on most of the topics. So I suppose when I do post I automatically get a bit defensive because I immediately feel outnumbered. I hate the fact that text doesn't allow for an accurate feel for 'how' people are saying something because I am far from a combative person. I am much more of an actual face to face conversation guy.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 10:47:10 AM
As I believe in God that also makes it certain that there is a devil

Why does one necessitate the other?
I mean no matter where you look there is always equal balance it seems. I'm no physicist but isn't there a 'for every action there is an equal reaction' theory or something like that? The yen and yang, light and dark. Good and evil....plus if you are a 'believer', it is very clear that after Satan tried to overthrow God and failed..he was cast out of heaven and banished to earth. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on March 10, 2011, 11:03:18 AM
He was banished to earth?  :huh:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on March 10, 2011, 11:08:33 AM
From what I know...no.  I personally believe that the "rapture" and the "second coming" are two different events.  Since the rapture hasn't occured yet we aren't in the end times.  But I'm not 100% confident that those are two separate events.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 10, 2011, 11:16:23 AM
Really? That’s how America was formed? I had no idea. I can only hope to assume that you habitually post these type of responses to develop a deeper discussion and offer an view perhaps overlooked. Otherwise it often appears that you are very condescending to those who don’t ‘think’ like you. And as you mentioned, America like every other nation or country that has ever has had ever existed, has had a violent past. Maybe the devil got off on the fact he could watch a couple hundred years of brutal slavery take place on a new continent? Maybe he thought it’d be neat to witness an atom bomb be dropped on a few hundred thousand people? 
     There are certainly an assortment of horrid instances in America’s history that the devil would surely have benefitted from. But there are equally a multitude of fantastic things that has come from America becoming a country that typify the qualities of God. You speak of plagues and disease…well America has been and will continue to be on the forefront of developing vaccines and cures for the plagues of the world. America is always first in line to donate money/aide/ and any type of help when a country or nation has faced an epidemic or natural disaster. It would be simple to continue to cite further examples but that is a topic for another thread.

The point of my post was, if you *know* that America has had this violent past, why do you see the uprising in the Middle East as a sign for the end of times? What makes this one special?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 10, 2011, 11:24:46 AM
Tick, it's time for humans to start realizing that we are not the center of reality.  "economy" is a human term.  Humans are not the dominant species on the planet.  It doesn't really matter what we do.  How long have ants been here?  Way longer than the dinosaurs.  The dinosaurs roamed the Earth for 150 million years.  Then, poof they were gone.  We have only been around for less than a fraction of that amount of time.

Believe me, when humans disappear, and they will, life and time will go on without us.  Long, long, long after we're gone.

So, it's not the end times.  Feel better now?   ;)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 10, 2011, 11:26:23 AM
Really? That’s how America was formed? I had no idea. I can only hope to assume that you habitually post these type of responses to develop a deeper discussion and offer an view perhaps overlooked. Otherwise it often appears that you are very condescending to those who don’t ‘think’ like you. And as you mentioned, America like every other nation or country that has ever has had ever existed, has had a violent past. Maybe the devil got off on the fact he could watch a couple hundred years of brutal slavery take place on a new continent? Maybe he thought it’d be neat to witness an atom bomb be dropped on a few hundred thousand people? 
     There are certainly an assortment of horrid instances in America’s history that the devil would surely have benefitted from. But there are equally a multitude of fantastic things that has come from America becoming a country that typify the qualities of God. You speak of plagues and disease…well America has been and will continue to be on the forefront of developing vaccines and cures for the plagues of the world. America is always first in line to donate money/aide/ and any type of help when a country or nation has faced an epidemic or natural disaster. It would be simple to continue to cite further examples but that is a topic for another thread.

The point of my post was, if you *know* that America has had this violent past, why do you see the uprising in the Middle East as a sign for the end of times? What makes this one special?

rumborak


Because people tend to think that their own times or experiences are special, unique, or of more significance/importance.
If one remains unbiased and logical, and is willing to study history, it is clear to see that there were times in this world that were FAR more violent, tragic, etc.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 12:37:15 PM
Really? That’s how America was formed? I had no idea. I can only hope to assume that you habitually post these type of responses to develop a deeper discussion and offer an view perhaps overlooked. Otherwise it often appears that you are very condescending to those who don’t ‘think’ like you. And as you mentioned, America like every other nation or country that has ever has had ever existed, has had a violent past. Maybe the devil got off on the fact he could watch a couple hundred years of brutal slavery take place on a new continent? Maybe he thought it’d be neat to witness an atom bomb be dropped on a few hundred thousand people? 
     There are certainly an assortment of horrid instances in America’s history that the devil would surely have benefitted from. But there are equally a multitude of fantastic things that has come from America becoming a country that typify the qualities of God. You speak of plagues and disease…well America has been and will continue to be on the forefront of developing vaccines and cures for the plagues of the world. America is always first in line to donate money/aide/ and any type of help when a country or nation has faced an epidemic or natural disaster. It would be simple to continue to cite further examples but that is a topic for another thread.

The point of my post was, if you *know* that America has had this violent past, why do you see the uprising in the Middle East as a sign for the end of times? What makes this one special?

rumborak

Sorry to have missed your point. When speaking of the ’end times’ there are an assortment of scriptural predictions or prophecies that have the appearance of coming to fruition in the current world environment. Forgive me if I do not post the exact scripture or quotes, there are so many of them, but the gist of one of the many is that Israel will be surrounded by their enemies and there will be wars on all sides. That obviously is taking place, not that it hasn’t been going on for centuries…but coupled with numerous other ‘prophecies’ that appear to be aligning I think that is what is fueling this ‘end of times’ declaration that has taken off over the past few years.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 10, 2011, 12:41:45 PM
The thing is also, you have to "creatively read" Jesus' statements about Judgment Day to conclude that it will still come. It was supposed to happen in the disciples' lifetime. It didn't.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Chino on March 10, 2011, 12:41:50 PM
Time have been much worse in years past. The only difference now is that we have media to conastantly dwell on it and ram it down our throats.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 12:51:29 PM
Time have been much worse in years past. The only difference now is that we have media to conastantly dwell on it and ram it down our throats.
I for one cannot stand the 24 hour news cycle and immediate availability of the "news". I can see the benefits on one hand, but on the other hand if I had to put a percentage on how much of this "news" is actually news...I think it'd only be 25%-35%...and that is being generous. If you stay plugged in and try to absorb everything that scrolls across the screen....it will drive you insane!
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: 7StringedBeast on March 10, 2011, 02:43:54 PM
Time have been much worse in years past. The only difference now is that we have media to conastantly dwell on it and ram it down our throats.
I for one cannot stand the 24 hour news cycle and immediate availability of the "news". I can see the benefits on one hand, but on the other hand if I had to put a percentage on how much of this "news" is actually news...I think it'd only be 25%-35%...and that is being generous. If you stay plugged in and try to absorb everything that scrolls across the screen....it will drive you insane!

This is so true.  I find I am angrier and more pessimistic the more I read the news.  How sad is that?  Especially after reading user comments under the articles.  It's such a mistake to read that stuff.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 10, 2011, 03:13:56 PM
Time have been much worse in years past. The only difference now is that we have media to conastantly dwell on it and ram it down our throats.
I for one cannot stand the 24 hour news cycle and immediate availability of the "news". I can see the benefits on one hand, but on the other hand if I had to put a percentage on how much of this "news" is actually news...I think it'd only be 25%-35%...and that is being generous. If you stay plugged in and try to absorb everything that scrolls across the screen....it will drive you insane!

This is so true.  I find I am angrier and more pessimistic the more I read the news.  How sad is that?  Especially after reading user comments under the articles.  It's such a mistake to read that stuff.
Oh you hit the nail right on the head with that. Those user comment sections are mean spirited and it really is humanity at its worst. I have limited myself to my local news after I get home from work and a quick perusal of ‘world’ news from a couple newspaper sites in the morning and then try to avoid the rest.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: sneakyblueberry on March 10, 2011, 03:20:01 PM
Interesting topic.  Just the other day I saw on the news that thousands of fish, literally tons, had turned up dead in a Los Angeles bay, the same had happened all over America.  Also there were reports of birds falling from the sky over Arkansas recently.  Not sure of the exact details, but you can google it.

In Zephaniah 1:3 it speaks about the coming 'Day of the Lord':

"I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.

Pretty freaky stuff.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on March 10, 2011, 03:24:17 PM
Interesting topic.  Just the other day I saw on the news that thousands of fish, literally tons, had turned up dead in a Los Angeles bay, the same had happened all over America.  Also there were reports of birds falling from the sky over Arkansas recently.  Not sure of the exact details, but you can google it.

In Zephaniah 1:3 it speaks about the coming 'Day of the Lord':

"I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.

Pretty freaky stuff.

As far as I know, those things happen regularly.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: sneakyblueberry on March 10, 2011, 03:28:11 PM
Interesting topic.  Just the other day I saw on the news that thousands of fish, literally tons, had turned up dead in a Los Angeles bay, the same had happened all over America.  Also there were reports of birds falling from the sky over Arkansas recently.  Not sure of the exact details, but you can google it.

In Zephaniah 1:3 it speaks about the coming 'Day of the Lord':

"I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.

Pretty freaky stuff.

As far as I know, those things happen regularly.

Really?  Well there you go, end times.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 10, 2011, 03:32:15 PM
Or pollution.  You know, whichever seems more reasonable.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: sneakyblueberry on March 10, 2011, 03:37:56 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought at first.  I know that one of the places with the fish, Cheakaspere (or something like that) Bay is a nuclear research facility near where Frank Zappa lived as a child. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 04:33:04 PM
Definitely sounds familiar, but I'd guess if you went back over the last 2000 years, it would sound familiar pretty much all the time.
I can only look at things through the scope of what I've seen, and things are different now then when I was a kid, and not in a good way. That's just how I see things.

Well, it does help to pick up a book. That's how people learn about things that were before their time.

Especially read up on the bubonic plague.

rumborak

Ok, and it would help if you go to page two of general discussion and declare a winner in the caption game.
:tick2:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on March 10, 2011, 04:38:34 PM
Interesting topic.  Just the other day I saw on the news that thousands of fish, literally tons, had turned up dead in a Los Angeles bay, the same had happened all over America.  Also there were reports of birds falling from the sky over Arkansas recently.  Not sure of the exact details, but you can google it.

In Zephaniah 1:3 it speaks about the coming 'Day of the Lord':

"I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.

Pretty freaky stuff.

As far as I know, those things happen regularly.

Really?  Well there you go, end times.

I mean regularly as in it's nothing new.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 04:41:07 PM
Interesting topic.  Just the other day I saw on the news that thousands of fish, literally tons, had turned up dead in a Los Angeles bay, the same had happened all over America.  Also there were reports of birds falling from the sky over Arkansas recently.  Not sure of the exact details, but you can google it.

In Zephaniah 1:3 it speaks about the coming 'Day of the Lord':

"I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.

Pretty freaky stuff.

As far as I know, those things happen regularly.
One things for sure, intellectual man will reason away any and all signs that a biblical prophesy might be true.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 10, 2011, 04:45:41 PM
LOL
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on March 10, 2011, 04:52:18 PM
Interesting topic.  Just the other day I saw on the news that thousands of fish, literally tons, had turned up dead in a Los Angeles bay, the same had happened all over America.  Also there were reports of birds falling from the sky over Arkansas recently.  Not sure of the exact details, but you can google it.

In Zephaniah 1:3 it speaks about the coming 'Day of the Lord':

"I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.

Pretty freaky stuff.

As far as I know, those things happen regularly.
One things for sure, intellectual man will reason away any and all signs that a biblical prophesy might be true.

Thank you. :)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 10, 2011, 04:55:14 PM
Interesting topic.  Just the other day I saw on the news that thousands of fish, literally tons, had turned up dead in a Los Angeles bay, the same had happened all over America.  Also there were reports of birds falling from the sky over Arkansas recently.  Not sure of the exact details, but you can google it.

In Zephaniah 1:3 it speaks about the coming 'Day of the Lord':

"I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.

Pretty freaky stuff.

As far as I know, those things happen regularly.
One things for sure, intellectual man will reason away any and all signs that a biblical prophesy might be true.

Thank you. :)
oh you thought I meant you? ok then, your welcome! :tick2:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 10, 2011, 05:41:11 PM
People want to be at the end of times.

This can't be overstated. But just thinking about people in past conditions, I'm sure they had faaaaaaaaaaar better reason to believe they were the ones living in the end times. And yet it is the ones that had visions of a better world that we remember, not the doomsday preachers.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 11, 2011, 02:45:03 AM
Actually, I take that back, after feeling a massive earthquake today. The end is here. We're doomed.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 05:23:45 AM
Actually, I take that back, after feeling a massive earthquake today. The end is here. We're doomed.
Laugh it up.

"TOKYO – A massive tsunami spawned by the largest earthquake in Japan's recorded history slammed the eastern coast Friday, sweeping away boats, cars, homes and people as widespread fires burned out of control. Tsunami warnings blanketed the entire Pacific, as far away as South America, Canada, Alaska and the entire U.S. West Coast."
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on March 11, 2011, 05:25:46 AM
I'm sure ack is more than aware of the damage the earthquake caused, considering he lives in Tokyo.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 05:35:52 AM
I'm sure ack is more than aware of the damage the earthquake caused, considering he lives in Tokyo.
Well, may he stay safe from harm.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 11, 2011, 07:16:44 AM
This isn't the end of the world, but pretty obviously the end of the era of Western dominance.  Also global warming.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 11, 2011, 07:22:34 AM
This isn't the end of the world, but pretty obviously the end of the era of Western dominance.  Also global warming.

If anything, I think the latter will ensure the continued power of the former.  All of India's people and resources won't mean squat when they can't provide water to their own citizens.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: TheVoxyn on March 11, 2011, 07:27:29 AM
Shit happens all the time. I bet there were earthquakes of this scale 2000+ years ago and it wouldn't suprise me if they were talking about the end of the world back then as well.

Also, you don't have to be an economist to realise that one world currency would never work.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 11, 2011, 07:33:55 AM
This isn't the end of the world, but pretty obviously the end of the era of Western dominance.  Also global warming.

If anything, I think the latter will ensure the continued power of the former.  All of India's people and resources won't mean squat when they can't provide water to their own citizens.

Well yeah, in the short run it'll be a thing of waning Western dominance.  It's the long run that's gonna screw almost everyone over.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 08:00:39 AM

Also, you don't have to be an economist to realise that one world currency would never work.
Obama care won't work either but that didn't stop him from implementing it.
just sayin...
:tick2:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 11, 2011, 08:01:16 AM
...But it will.  At least it'll work better than what we have now.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 11, 2011, 08:02:33 AM

Also, you don't have to be an economist to realise that one world currency would never work.
Obama care won't work either but that didn't stop him from implementing it.
just sayin...
:tick2:

And, uh, what makes you think it won't work? Because our current system barely works

Oh, right


OBAMA
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 11, 2011, 08:09:48 AM

Also, you don't have to be an economist to realise that one world currency would never work.
Obama care won't work either but that didn't stop him from implementing it.
just sayin...
:tick2:

And, uh, what makes you think it won't work? Because our current system barely works

Oh, right


OBAMA

Pretty much this.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 08:51:40 AM

Also, you don't have to be an economist to realise that one world currency would never work.
Obama care won't work either but that didn't stop him from implementing it.
just sayin...
:tick2:

And, uh, what makes you think it won't work? Because our current system barely works

Oh, right


OBAMA
Well for me personally my previously awesome heath care saw its yearly deductible literally double from 5,000 to 10,000 dollars this year so I can see the fruit of its awesomeness already. I guess I should be pretty thrilled about it.
:tick2:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: TheVoxyn on March 11, 2011, 09:07:29 AM
Awesome health care? Most of Europe looks down on your health care system because it's so bad.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on March 11, 2011, 09:10:28 AM
The health care system in general is total shit, but it doesn't mean an individual can't have perfectly good coverage. The problem is that a ton of people don't have access to that coverage.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 09:11:50 AM
The health care system in general is total shit, but it doesn't mean an individual can't have perfectly good coverage. The problem is that a ton of people don't have access to that coverage.
Exactly.
For whatever reason my yearly deductible doubled this year. That sucks.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: lordxizor on March 11, 2011, 10:19:06 AM
The health care system in general is total shit, but it doesn't mean an individual can't have perfectly good coverage. The problem is that a ton of people don't have access to that coverage.
Exactly.
For whatever reason my yearly deductible doubled this year. That sucks.
My monthly premium double over the four years before Obamacare was passed and my deductible doubled too. It was not Obamacare that caused all of this to happen.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 10:48:02 AM
The health care system in general is total shit, but it doesn't mean an individual can't have perfectly good coverage. The problem is that a ton of people don't have access to that coverage.
Exactly.
For whatever reason my yearly deductible doubled this year. That sucks.
My monthly premium double over the four years before Obamacare was passed and my deductible doubled too. It was not Obamacare that caused all of this to happen.
Whatever the reason is, it blows.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2011, 11:11:50 AM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 11, 2011, 11:15:22 AM
Actually, the end of humans is near and that can be considered a blessing.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2011, 11:24:46 AM
Actually, the end of humans is near and that can be considered a blessing.

Feeling that way about your own race also seems like a tough way to live.

Do you really feel that ending human life is a blessing?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 11:46:22 AM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near. 
Who lives like that?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2011, 11:47:23 AM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near. 
Who lives like that?

People who think the end of times is near.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 11:57:23 AM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near. 
Who lives like that?

People who think the end of times is near.
You can believe were getting close to the end without obsessing about it?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2011, 11:58:46 AM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near. 
Actually if you are a person who believes the end times are here...it stands to chance that they probably are believers of Christ...therefore they most likely believe they are saved will not suffer the wrath of the end times. I think it's the folk who aren't so sure about thier spiritual eternity that are a bit concerned about it being the 'end times' or not.  
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2011, 12:15:11 PM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near. 
Actually if you are a person who believes the end times are here...it stands to chance that they probably are believers of Christ...therefore they most likely believe they are saved will not suffer the wrath of the end times. I think it's the folk who aren't so sure about thier spiritual eternity that are a bit concerned about it being the 'end times' or not.  

Interesting.  By your reasoning, no one really should be worried about end of times.  If you believe in it, you are Christian, and wont be affected.  If you arent christian, you dont believe in the end of times.

Yet so many people worry about the end of times.  Hmmmmm. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2011, 12:32:54 PM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near. 
Actually if you are a person who believes the end times are here...it stands to chance that they probably are believers of Christ...therefore they most likely believe they are saved will not suffer the wrath of the end times. I think it's the folk who aren't so sure about thier spiritual eternity that are a bit concerned about it being the 'end times' or not.  

Interesting.  By your reasoning, no one really should be worried about end of times.  If you believe in it, you are Christian, and wont be affected.  If you arent christian, you dont believe in the end of times.

Yet so many people worry about the end of times.  Hmmmmm. 
It’s not exactly my reasoning….but I am a believer and whether or not it is or isn’t the end times doesn’t affect me one way or the other. I can say that I don’t dismiss some of the events in the world as easily as others do or attribute them to their more obvious meanings as quickly. But as a believer most of my ‘worry’ is for people who I love and care for deeply and their eternity. But I will never argue with free will and choice.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2011, 12:44:30 PM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near. 
Actually if you are a person who believes the end times are here...it stands to chance that they probably are believers of Christ...therefore they most likely believe they are saved will not suffer the wrath of the end times. I think it's the folk who aren't so sure about thier spiritual eternity that are a bit concerned about it being the 'end times' or not.  

Interesting.  By your reasoning, no one really should be worried about end of times.  If you believe in it, you are Christian, and wont be affected.  If you arent christian, you dont believe in the end of times.

Yet so many people worry about the end of times.  Hmmmmm. 
It’s not exactly my reasoning….but I am a believer and whether or not it is or isn’t the end times doesn’t affect me one way or the other. I can say that I don’t dismiss some of the events in the world as easily as others do or attribute them to their more obvious meanings as quickly. But as a believer most of my ‘worry’ is for people who I love and care for deeply and their eternity. But I will never argue with free will and choice.

So how are you questioning what I said?  Either you are worried about your own horrific end....or you feel you will be saved, but worry about friends and family that wont.  Either way, it seems like a burden to live with, especially if you are prone to read end times into every single event on the news.
Im trying to figure out which type of religious incentive the end of times is....the whip or the carrot?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 12:47:23 PM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near.  
Actually if you are a person who believes the end times are here...it stands to chance that they probably are believers of Christ...therefore they most likely believe they are saved will not suffer the wrath of the end times. I think it's the folk who aren't so sure about thier spiritual eternity that are a bit concerned about it being the 'end times' or not.  

Interesting.  By your reasoning, no one really should be worried about end of times.  If you believe in it, you are Christian, and wont be affected.  If you arent christian, you dont believe in the end of times.

Yet so many people worry about the end of times.  Hmmmmm.  
It’s not exactly my reasoning….but I am a believer and whether or not it is or isn’t the end times doesn’t affect me one way or the other. I can say that I don’t dismiss some of the events in the world as easily as others do or attribute them to their more obvious meanings as quickly. But as a believer most of my ‘worry’ is for people who I love and care for deeply and their eternity. But I will never argue with free will and choice.
Well said.
For me personally. I am a believer who lacks faith in my own faithfulness to God. I don't think I serve God as he would like me to. He did so much for me and I tend to put self first all to often. I believe I am saved but I'll probably wind up in a basement apartment in heaven unless I put forth a more righteous effort on this earth.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 11, 2011, 12:56:28 PM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near. 
Actually if you are a person who believes the end times are here...it stands to chance that they probably are believers of Christ...therefore they most likely believe they are saved will not suffer the wrath of the end times. I think it's the folk who aren't so sure about thier spiritual eternity that are a bit concerned about it being the 'end times' or not.  

Interesting.  By your reasoning, no one really should be worried about end of times.  If you believe in it, you are Christian, and wont be affected.  If you arent christian, you dont believe in the end of times.

Yet so many people worry about the end of times.  Hmmmmm. 
It’s not exactly my reasoning….but I am a believer and whether or not it is or isn’t the end times doesn’t affect me one way or the other. I can say that I don’t dismiss some of the events in the world as easily as others do or attribute them to their more obvious meanings as quickly. But as a believer most of my ‘worry’ is for people who I love and care for deeply and their eternity. But I will never argue with free will and choice.

So how are you questioning what I said?  Either you are worried about your own horrific end....or you feel you will be saved, but worry about friends and family that wont.  Either way, it seems like a burden to live with, especially if you are prone to read end times into every single event on the news.
Im trying to figure out which type of religious incentive the end of times is....the whip or the carrot?

I can’t speak for other believers but for me there is no burden there. Even though I may worry about loved ones, I know from my faith that it is all out of my hands. I can’t control their choices or force them to think one way or the other so there is no real burden on me. Any emotions I feel are the same emotions that we all share when we are anxious for family members or loved ones in any realm of concern. They are not enhanced or controlled by an impending end times scenario. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 11, 2011, 01:02:21 PM
It must be a tough way to live, always thinking the end times are near.  
Actually if you are a person who believes the end times are here...it stands to chance that they probably are believers of Christ...therefore they most likely believe they are saved will not suffer the wrath of the end times. I think it's the folk who aren't so sure about thier spiritual eternity that are a bit concerned about it being the 'end times' or not.  

Interesting.  By your reasoning, no one really should be worried about end of times.  If you believe in it, you are Christian, and wont be affected.  If you arent christian, you dont believe in the end of times.

Yet so many people worry about the end of times.  Hmmmmm.  
It’s not exactly my reasoning….but I am a believer and whether or not it is or isn’t the end times doesn’t affect me one way or the other. I can say that I don’t dismiss some of the events in the world as easily as others do or attribute them to their more obvious meanings as quickly. But as a believer most of my ‘worry’ is for people who I love and care for deeply and their eternity. But I will never argue with free will and choice.

So how are you questioning what I said?  Either you are worried about your own horrific end....or you feel you will be saved, but worry about friends and family that wont.  Either way, it seems like a burden to live with, especially if you are prone to read end times into every single event on the news.
Im trying to figure out which type of religious incentive the end of times is....the whip or the carrot?

I can’t speak for other believers but for me there is no burden there. Even though I may worry about loved ones, I know from my faith that it is all out of my hands. I can’t control their choices or force them to think one way or the other so there is no real burden on me. Any emotions I feel are the same emotions that we all share when we are anxious for family members or loved ones in any realm of concern. They are not enhanced or controlled by an impending end times scenario.  

Maybe not for you, and Im sure many others....but it is clear that it weighs heavy on the minds of many.  I just said that it must be a tough way to live.  Tough to live with impending doom imposed on you by your faith that you or your loved ones might, or will, have to experience.  Yeah...sounds more whip than carrot to me.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 11, 2011, 02:44:49 PM
Easy on the quote pyramids guys :)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Chino on March 11, 2011, 02:50:19 PM
Actually, the end of humans is near and that can be considered a blessing.

I think that's the complete opposite of a blessing. Why would you wish for the extinction of your own species?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 11, 2011, 03:41:34 PM
Here's a thought: If the end of times were actually near, shouldn't the Christians be spared from the disasters? Meaning, the fact that Christians die shows it's plain ol' regular disasters?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 11, 2011, 04:40:51 PM
Here's a thought: If the end of times were actually near, shouldn't the Christians be spared from the disasters? Meaning, the fact that Christians die shows it's plain ol' regular disasters?

rumborak
The end times don't mean everyday is the rapture.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: skydivingninja on March 11, 2011, 06:48:26 PM
This thread is one big overreaction heading closer to P/R with each religious doomsday point made.

EDIT: oh lol, someone linked me to the thread and I thought it was in GD.  And we're already in P/R.  Shows you how often I visit this side of the board.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Zook on March 11, 2011, 08:19:24 PM
Don't worry guys. We'll be just fine. Set Abominae had a change of heart. :tup
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ultimetalhead on March 11, 2011, 09:22:45 PM
I'm with the people who think that the end of humanity can only be a good thing for nature. Obviously (given my avatar, and the fact that he's my favorite person ever), I fully agree with Carlin's view on the matter. Sit back, watch everybody freak the fuck out, and no matter how bad a natural disaster gets, always hope that it gets a little bit worse.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 11, 2011, 09:31:02 PM
I'm with the people who think that the end of humanity can only be a good thing for nature.

"Good" is only a human conception and to apply that concept to post-humanity Earth where that concept no longer exists is kind of ridiculous. Nature has no purpose and therefore there is no good outcome or bad outcome. I know what you're trying to say, but its ignoring the fact that humanity and everything resulting from human activity are themselves fundamentally parts of nature.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ultimetalhead on March 11, 2011, 09:33:51 PM
I'm with the people who think that the end of humanity can only be a good thing for nature.

"Good" is only a human conception and to apply that concept to post-humanity Earth where that concept no longer exists is kind of ridiculous. Nature has no purpose and therefore there is no good outcome or bad outcome. I know what you're trying to say, but its ignoring the fact that humanity and everything resulting from human activity are themselves fundamentally parts of nature.
This is true. However, I think it's pretty apparent that we're doing more harm to this planet than we are helping it. Granted, I agree with your idea that nature in and of itself is a pointless thing.

Really, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I'm just not that fond of humanity.  :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: j on March 11, 2011, 09:51:10 PM
Easy on the quote pyramids guys :)

 :lol  I was about to say, that one was getting impressive.

-J
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 11, 2011, 09:52:43 PM
I was about to say, that one was getting impressive.

-J
That's what she said.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jamesman42 on March 11, 2011, 09:55:51 PM
I have no opinion on end times besides that I believe it will happen. I don't fuss with that stuff. Pretty sure Jesus was all about worrying about today, "for tomorrow will have its own worries."

Oh, this is how I feel:

Really, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I'm just not that fond of humanity.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Plasmastrike on March 11, 2011, 11:28:49 PM
" But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,  unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,  traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,  having a form of godliness but denying its power."         2nd Timothy 3:1-5

Sounds pretty familiar if you ask me.
Powerful stuff.

Yeah, it does sound familiar. It sounds like THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: sneakyblueberry on March 12, 2011, 01:27:50 AM
" But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,  unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,  traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,  having a form of godliness but denying its power."         2nd Timothy 3:1-5

Sounds pretty familiar if you ask me.
Powerful stuff.

Yeah, it does sound familiar. It sounds like THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.

Then maybe we've been in the 'end times' for a while now?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 12, 2011, 05:55:06 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Rgh4kHPwg&feature=related
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 12, 2011, 06:37:42 AM
I still cannot fathom how anyone can think that the global situation is worse than 50 or 100 years ago, let alone further than that.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 12, 2011, 08:11:45 AM
I still cannot fathom how anyone can think that the global situation is worse than 50 or 100 years ago, let alone further than that.
Really? No president has ever had this much shit hit the fan in a two year span.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 12, 2011, 08:16:52 AM
I still cannot fathom how anyone can think that the global situation is worse than 50 or 100 years ago, let alone further than that.
Because the good old days.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: AcidLameLTE on March 12, 2011, 08:47:26 AM
Think of it like this; there is probably no better life to live in this region of our galaxy than the life of a person in the early 21st century of the Western world.  You can look at the negatives, but the fact is people live longer, are richer, suffer from less crime and war, are more tolerant and open, etc.  Considering all the darker moments in human history, from our emergence from the great apes, struggling to survive, to the population crunch in the last ice age, to the struggle of life in the earliest civilizations, to the violent and brutal conflicts that marked the history of the Fertile Crescent, to the Mongols, or the famines, or the plagues, or more recently the world wars, our existence here and now is a paradise.  I've had the extreme good fortune to be born into a financially secure family who loved me.  I live in one of the best places in the world, have had the opportunity to pursue higher education, have my health (and security even if I fall ill or hurt myself), and all sorts of opportunities open to me in my future.  I have no cause to bitch.
The thread should have pretty much ended after this post.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 12, 2011, 09:00:34 AM
I agree, but only on the micro level.  The fact is that never before in history have we actually impacted the environment on such a scale that might be considered killing the planet.  We've only been doing so since 1850, and it's only gotten worse from there.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 12, 2011, 09:03:34 AM
That's true, and there will be hell to pay in the future.  But once again, it won't be Westerners who have to deal with the extreme consequences.  It'll be Bangladesh, the Congo, India, etc.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 12, 2011, 09:06:15 AM
That's true, and there will be hell to pay in the future.  But once again, it won't be Westerners who have to deal with the extreme consequences.  It'll be Bangladesh, the Congo, India, etc.

https://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/venus/greenhouse.html

tl;dr: In the short run, Westerners will be fine, but in the long run everyone gets screwed.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 12, 2011, 10:20:28 AM
I often can't help but be reminded of the predator-prey cycles of animals, where predators experience a massive population crash after over-hunting their prey. Put it bluntly, we're quickly outstripping our ability to sustain ourselves, and many people will die, bringing the world population to below what would be a sustainable level. Then the wildlife will recover, and the human population will slowly get back up again.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 12, 2011, 10:26:55 AM
I certainly hope so, or at least I hope it happens before we can initiate a positive feedback loop as described in the above link.  I know it sounds horrible to say, but you are absolutely right.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 12, 2011, 10:52:11 AM
Humans are overpopluating the world. We're depleting the sources, and now we don't have enough. That's why if something major happened like the earthquake especially in NY. People are guarnteed to die, either by each other or not of enough sources
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 12, 2011, 11:06:51 AM
I often can't help but be reminded of the predator-prey cycles of animals, where predators experience a massive population crash after over-hunting their prey. Put it bluntly, we're quickly outstripping our ability to sustain ourselves, and many people will die, bringing the world population to below what would be a sustainable level. Then the wildlife will recover, and the human population will slowly get back up again.

rumborak

I agree. I remember watching a televison program years ago where human DNA was studied and it was pretty evident throught that analysis that there has been 2 bottlenecks in the past where humans have fallen below an estimated 25,000 people or so left on the planet. Like you said...it really is just a matter of nature correcting and balancing itself out. I thought it was fascinating how they could figure that out just by comparing the number of natural mutations that take place in DNA over time...but the evidence was laid out in an understandable manner.
 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ehra on March 12, 2011, 12:31:42 PM
Actually, the end of humans is near and that can be considered a blessing.

I think a few posters here are humans, so you might want to watch the personal attacks.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 12, 2011, 12:34:35 PM
Actually, the end of humans is near and that can be considered a blessing.

I think a few posters here are humans, so you might want to watch the personal attacks.

Not Blob; he's a robot.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ehra on March 12, 2011, 12:38:15 PM
Yeah but he doesn't post anymore, so it's ok to say bad things about robots.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 12, 2011, 12:40:33 PM
Hey, I miss Blob. :sadpanda:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ehra on March 12, 2011, 12:44:01 PM
Me too   :'(
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 12, 2011, 12:45:06 PM
I still cannot fathom how anyone can think that the global situation is worse than 50 or 100 years ago, let alone further than that.
Really? No president has ever had this much shit hit the fan in a two year span.


... wat

President Abraham Lincoln: Elected in 1860. After trying desperately to hang onto the Union, he finds himself in a Civil war, one of the deadliest wars in American history. As of 1862, prospects for the Union weren't perfect; it appeared as if the war could go either way

President John F. Kennedy: Elected 1960. Civil rights issues and the Cuban Missile Crisis made his entire Presidency somewhat difficult

I could go on. Do you really think things are more terrible now than they were in the past? This is almost nothing compared to a lot of what America has gone through
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 12, 2011, 12:47:20 PM
PLM is so right. Driving the point home, of course, that both those presidents were also shot in the head and killed by bitchy militarized conservatives worse than any Tea Party outfit.

This is by far not America's lowest moment, nor the world's.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 12, 2011, 12:52:06 PM
PLM is so right. Driving the point home, of course, that both those presidents were also shot in the head and killed by bitchy militarized conservatives worse than any Tea Party outfit.

Wow that hadn't occurred to me at first :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 12, 2011, 12:53:49 PM
PLM is so right. Driving the point home, of course, that both those presidents were also shot in the head and killed by bitchy militarized conservatives worse than any Tea Party outfit.

This is by far not America's lowest moment, nor the world's.

Correct, and actually the reason it's so difficult for everyone and a lot of people are talking about the downfall of America is because we're in it right now (people were saying the same of the 70s, after all), and because for some reason we are having quite a bit of trouble actually getting to task on fixing these problems.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 12, 2011, 06:55:24 PM
I still cannot fathom how anyone can think that the global situation is worse than 50 or 100 years ago, let alone further than that.
Really? No president has ever had this much shit hit the fan in a two year span.


... wat

President Abraham Lincoln: Elected in 1860. After trying desperately to hang onto the Union, he finds himself in a Civil war, one of the deadliest wars in American history. As of 1862, prospects for the Union weren't perfect; it appeared as if the war could go either way

President John F. Kennedy: Elected 1960. Civil rights issues and the Cuban Missile Crisis made his entire Presidency somewhat difficult

I could go on. Do you really think things are more terrible now than they were in the past? This is almost nothing compared to a lot of what America has gone through
Well Obama inherited 2 wars, home grown terror cells, al qeada, a wall street collapse, a recession causing the worst unemployment in years, an inability to create jobs(and that aint gonna change anytime soon)a unprecedented revolution taking place in the middle east, a failing global economy, a country so divided it verging on a civil war, plus various costly natural disasters, and a shit load of other stuff I'm probably forgetting. Its pretty bad as far as I'm concerned.
If you were going to burn me you should have went with Roosevelt dealing with the depression. That was probably right there.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 12, 2011, 06:57:58 PM
I think any Cold War president had a bigger mess to handle than Obama.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 12, 2011, 07:01:09 PM
I think any Cold War president had a bigger mess to handle than Obama.
I don't agree. Think think Obama has more overall problems and a country on the brink of an economical collapse, imo.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 12, 2011, 07:03:57 PM
I think Obama's situation, if you wanted to compare it, is probably closer to Carter's. And yeah, they stoned him too.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 12, 2011, 08:03:55 PM
Actually, if you're going to bring up economic downturn, the mess Martin Van Buren inherited is worse than this mess, as far as I'm concerned.

Obama still doesn't have the worst mess. Doesn't matter from which angle you look at it
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: j on March 12, 2011, 08:18:36 PM
I still cannot fathom how anyone can think that the global situation is worse than 50 or 100 years ago, let alone further than that.
Really? No president has ever had this much shit hit the fan in a two year span.


... wat

President Abraham Lincoln: Elected in 1860. After trying desperately to hang onto the Union, he finds himself in a Civil war, one of the deadliest wars in American history. As of 1862, prospects for the Union weren't perfect; it appeared as if the war could go either way

President John F. Kennedy: Elected 1960. Civil rights issues and the Cuban Missile Crisis made his entire Presidency somewhat difficult

I could go on. Do you really think things are more terrible now than they were in the past? This is almost nothing compared to a lot of what America has gone through

I agree, and tick's addition about Roosevelt and the Great Depression is another good example.  But to be honest, even if we WERE presently going through a particularly dark time in history, I don't understand what it is that makes people want to be doomsayers.

The main thing that worries me about the current state of things has nothing to do with the economy, international affairs, the environment, overpopulation, etc. (although those are all serious issues).  It's the complete ineptitude of the US government to take any sort of significant effective action, for better or worse, and manage and follow through with it.  I know I'm always harping on this, but as much as I despise the typical incompetent, self-centered politician, I blame the system over any individual.  And I don't know how it can be remedied.

-J
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on March 12, 2011, 08:24:14 PM
Im a bit confused. the current economic times, middle eastern uprisings or state of natural disasters in no way threatens the entirerty or even the majority of the human race let alone the planet. How would the end of times be brought about? I mean what would actually be responsible for whiping out the human race?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: TheVoxyn on March 12, 2011, 08:25:17 PM
Actually, if you're going to bring up economic downturn, the mess Martin Van Buren inherited is worse than this mess, as far as I'm concerned.
I had never heard of the guy but that name is 100% Dutch. Seems you guys didn't just get New York from us but also a president  :hat.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 12, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
Yeah he was born to Dutch parents, I think.

He's one of the lesser known presidents, but he was Jackson's VP and got to deal with all the shit Jackson created.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 12, 2011, 08:28:24 PM
Im a bit confused. the current economic times, middle eastern uprisings or state of natural disasters in no way threatens the entirerty or even the majority of the human race let alone the planet. How would the end of times be brought about? I mean what would actually be responsible for whiping out the human race?

I'm not sure how to answer the question, but I'm pretty sure that the end of the world is going to coincide with a space satellite named Nauticus making contact with God and becoming a new divinity.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: TheVoxyn on March 12, 2011, 08:30:30 PM
Im a bit confused. the current economic times, middle eastern uprisings or state of natural disasters in no way threatens the entirerty or even the majority of the human race let alone the planet. How would the end of times be brought about? I mean what would actually be responsible for whiping out the human race?

I'm not sure how to answer the question, but I'm pretty sure that the end of the world is going to coincide with a space satellite named Nauticus making contact with God and becoming a new divinity.
Seems likely.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on March 12, 2011, 08:43:42 PM
Im a bit confused. the current economic times, middle eastern uprisings or state of natural disasters in no way threatens the entirerty or even the majority of the human race let alone the planet. How would the end of times be brought about? I mean what would actually be responsible for whiping out the human race?

I'm not sure how to answer the question, but I'm pretty sure that the end of the world is going to coincide with a space satellite named Nauticus making contact with God and becoming a new divinity.

I would approve of this.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 12, 2011, 08:45:08 PM
Nauticus? What sbout V'ger?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 12, 2011, 08:57:26 PM
Nuclear wessels.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 12, 2011, 09:37:21 PM
Im a bit confused. the current economic times, middle eastern uprisings or state of natural disasters in no way threatens the entirerty or even the majority of the human race let alone the planet. How would the end of times be brought about? I mean what would actually be responsible for whiping out the human race?
This thread has kind of gone off the rails and ventured into several different territories that are honestly not about end times, but rather just a good debate of now vs. then. and though I would say there were era's where singular issues were as big as anything currently happening, I would say its the multiple of so many serious issues that makes this era so alarming. From terrorism, to civil unrest, to financial crisis to as j said, an overall  political incompetence that makes it hard to feel good about these idiots being able to get things back on track.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 12, 2011, 09:49:18 PM
Nuclear wessels.

They're in Alameda.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 12, 2011, 09:51:15 PM
Terrorism is not even at the same scale today as it was in the '80s.  Civil unrest is minor in the States compared to the past, and abroad the situation in the Middle East is certainly not unique; and it's certainly less violent than the myriad of civil wars that erupted in the '90s, just as one example.  The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Seriously, it's like Rumborak said: you have to want to believe it is the end times.  You have to want to believe things are worse now to actually see them that way.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 12, 2011, 09:55:31 PM
The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Which past fanancial crisis are you referring to?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 12, 2011, 10:28:47 PM
I've read this somewhere before, I think it's Eco. Paraphrased: You can chalk it up to man's sense of ego and being the center of the universe that so many seem to want to believe that the end of the world just so happens to coincide with their birth.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 12, 2011, 10:59:11 PM
There are only two things that convince me that for the U.S. specifically, dark times are fast approaching:

1. Global warming (as I've stated), which will be moderately bad in the short run for us and possibly catastrophic for the world in the long run (which is what I'm afraid of).
2. As someone else in this thread has said, the main problem is not so much the issues our country is facing today but our apparent inability to do anything to curb said problems; hell, Americans have made partisan issues of what problems we actually are facing.  As with #1 above, it's a problem that can be mitigated or lessened to some degree if we can do something about it now, but if we do nothing or the bare minimum as we have been during the Obama administration, those problems will begin to overwhelm us.  A stagnating economy (and the recovery the Republicans are about to kill) will rob us of superpower status, the civil unrest may not be as bad as in ages past but it will worsen and could indeed divide the country to the point of civil war, and these and other issues will result in a sharp decline in the quality of life over the next few decades.  Pretty unfair for my generation, who was born and raised into what was arguably the height of American affluence.  If the recovery dies, we'll have inherited one of the worst messes since the 1970s, or even the 1930s.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 13, 2011, 05:23:00 AM
Excuse me, sir! Can you direct us to the naval base in Alameda? It's where they keep the nuclear wessels.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: TheVoxyn on March 13, 2011, 05:27:26 AM
The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Which past fanancial crisis are you referring to?
Great depression of the 30's?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 13, 2011, 07:48:56 AM
Excuse me, sir! Can you direct us to the naval base in Alameda? It's where they keep the nuclear wessels.

It's funny because I was JUST watching this last night :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 13, 2011, 08:13:38 AM
We are in an enemy wessel. I did not wish to be shot down on our way to our own funeral.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 14, 2011, 12:22:26 AM
The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Which past fanancial crisis are you referring to?
Great depression of the 30's?

That's usually not described as a financial crisis.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 14, 2011, 05:56:27 AM
The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Which past fanancial crisis are you referring to?
Great depression of the 30's?

That's usually not described as a financial crisis.
it was.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 14, 2011, 08:36:57 AM
The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Which past fanancial crisis are you referring to?
Great depression of the 30's?

That's usually not described as a financial crisis.

Are you kidding me?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 14, 2011, 08:37:53 AM
The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Which past fanancial crisis are you referring to?
Great depression of the 30's?

That's usually not described as a financial crisis.

What is it described as?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 14, 2011, 09:48:58 AM
The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Which past fanancial crisis are you referring to?
Great depression of the 30's?

That's usually not described as a financial crisis.
what
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: 7StringedBeast on March 14, 2011, 10:56:56 AM
Anyone find it a little bit eerie that this thread was made and then there was a huge earthquake/tsunami/nuclear meltdown in Japan right afterwords?

 :|
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: emindead on March 14, 2011, 10:57:29 AM
Actually, if you're going to bring up economic downturn, the mess Martin Van Buren inherited is worse than this mess, as far as I'm concerned.
I had never heard of the guy but that name is 100% Dutch. Seems you guys didn't just get New York from us but also a president  :hat.
Dutch parents and the first born USAmerican president.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on March 14, 2011, 11:14:37 AM
Anyone find it a little bit eerie that this thread was made and then there was a huge earthquake/tsunami/nuclear meltdown in Japan right afterwords?

 :|

No.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 14, 2011, 01:22:47 PM
We are in an enemy wessel. I did not wish to be shot down on our way to our own funeral.

Are you sure it's not time for a colorful metaphor?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 14, 2011, 01:30:01 PM
If Kirk had been smart he'd have known not to send the Russian to look for the nuclear wessels :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 14, 2011, 06:26:31 PM
The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Which past fanancial crisis are you referring to?
Great depression of the 30's?

That's usually not described as a financial crisis.

What is it described as?

Technically it is a financial crisis because its roots are in banking and stocks, but its not described as a financial crisis because modern finance is so different now. It's usually described as "economic crisis" or "banking crisis". The last financial crisis was the largest crisis in modern finance as far as I know.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on March 14, 2011, 07:17:18 PM
The current financial crisis is on the decline, and even it was not as steep as certain past ones.

Which past fanancial crisis are you referring to?
Great depression of the 30's?

That's usually not described as a financial crisis.

What is it described as?

Technically it is a financial crisis because its roots are in banking and stocks, but its not described as a financial crisis because modern finance is so different now. It's usually described as "economic crisis" or "banking crisis". The last financial crisis was the largest crisis in modern finance as far as I know.
umm...yeah....nice try.
:tick2:
stock market crash= financial crisis.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 14, 2011, 07:31:46 PM
Technically it is a financial crisis because its roots are in banking and stocks, but its not described as a financial crisis because modern finance is so different now. It's usually described as "economic crisis" or "banking crisis". The last financial crisis was the largest crisis in modern finance as far as I know.
umm...yeah....nice try.
:tick2:
stock market crash= financial crisis.

How is that inconsistent with what I just posted?

Anyways, the 19th and the 21st are supposed to be landmark days in the end of the world. Woot.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Mejan on March 20, 2011, 11:33:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: sonatafanica on March 21, 2011, 01:00:08 AM
I hope we are, because end time shit would be intense.


And there have always been people yelling that the world is ending every day for thousands of years now. And then when things can possibly get more complicated, they do.


It would be awesome if it ended in my lifetime, though. It would be like catching the last train off of this motherfucker.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 21, 2011, 08:24:12 AM
I hope we are, because end time shit would be intense.
You really have no idea of what you are 'hoping' for. I'd suggest you obtain an improved understanding of what the End Times entail before wishing it were upon us. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: antigoon on March 21, 2011, 09:46:32 AM
Oh come on :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on March 21, 2011, 09:53:40 AM
I hope we are, because end time shit would be intense.
You really have no idea of what you are 'hoping' for. I'd suggest you obtain an improved understanding of what the End Times entail before wishing it were upon us. 

Which version should he read? or should he read all of them? I personally haven't gotten around to all of them. Maybe summer break will help me out with that, it's very interesting. :)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 21, 2011, 09:55:55 AM
I hope we are, because end time shit would be intense.
You really have no idea of what you are 'hoping' for. I'd suggest you obtain an improved understanding of what the End Times entail before wishing it were upon us. 

Which version should he read? or should he read all of them? I personally haven't gotten around to all of them. Maybe summer break will help me out with that, it's very interesting. :)
Any of them. They all illustrate scenarios that certainly shoudn't be 'hoped' or wished for.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 21, 2011, 09:56:28 AM
I hope we are, because end time shit would be intense.
You really have no idea of what you are 'hoping' for. I'd suggest you obtain an improved understanding of what the End Times entail before wishing it were upon us. 
He doesn't care.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 21, 2011, 10:50:32 AM
I hope we are, because end time shit would be intense.
You really have no idea of what you are 'hoping' for. I'd suggest you obtain an improved understanding of what the End Times entail before wishing it were upon us. 

Which version should he read? or should he read all of them? I personally haven't gotten around to all of them. Maybe summer break will help me out with that, it's very interesting. :)

For Sonata, I recommend the Neon Genesis: Evangellion scenario. I totally see him pulling a Shinji.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on March 21, 2011, 11:04:48 AM
I hope we are, because end time shit would be intense.
You really have no idea of what you are 'hoping' for. I'd suggest you obtain an improved understanding of what the End Times entail before wishing it were upon us. 

Sonata doesn't really care much about P/R, so take anything he says with a grain of salt :P
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: j on March 21, 2011, 11:06:41 AM
^Yeah, I kind of enjoy some of his recent hit-and-runs though. :lol

-J
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 21, 2011, 11:28:20 AM
Its not the end of the world. Its the end of an era, a change of seasons. A spiritual and physical shift that will impact the world. A great energy will arise.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 21, 2011, 11:40:36 AM
Its not the end of the world. Its the end of an era, a change of seasons. A spiritual and physical shift that will impact the world. A great energy will arise.

Or it could just be Monday.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 21, 2011, 11:44:22 AM
Of course its not gonna happen today. Its what's going to happen.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on March 21, 2011, 11:49:43 AM
Of course its not gonna happen today. Its what's going to happen.

I was just jokingly stating it from a non-believers point of view.  Lots of bad things happening in the world...some say it is the end of times....we would just say it is Monday (assuming it actually was a Monday).
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 21, 2011, 12:12:51 PM
Haha...yeah...just another Sunday morning.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: sonatafanica on March 21, 2011, 01:54:33 PM
I hope we are, because end time shit would be intense.
You really have no idea of what you are 'hoping' for. I'd suggest you obtain an improved understanding of what the End Times entail before wishing it were upon us. 

Which version should he read? or should he read all of them? I personally haven't gotten around to all of them. Maybe summer break will help me out with that, it's very interesting. :)

For Sonata, I recommend the Neon Genesis: Evangellion scenario. I totally see him pulling a Shinji.

You're o.k., kid.  :tup
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on March 21, 2011, 04:41:28 PM
The world (Earth) has been around for 4.5 billion years. We (Homo Sapiens) have been here for 250,000 of that. We're just not that important.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on March 21, 2011, 07:28:25 PM
Of course not, all this is is the beginning of a time when, for the first time in around a millennium, the emerging superpower is not Caucasian of some variety.  That's not the worst thing in the world, hell it could even be a good thing depending on which of the candidates (if any) it is.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 22, 2011, 04:25:34 AM
Its not the end of the world. Its the end of an era, a change of seasons.

Or it could just be 6:00 on a Christmas morning.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 22, 2011, 04:33:42 AM
Just another Manic Monday.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Zook on March 25, 2011, 11:25:38 AM
It's friday, I'm in love.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 25, 2011, 11:46:28 AM
yesterday was thursday thursday.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 25, 2011, 03:47:58 PM
It would be cool if it was like The Knowing. Where only children are saved, and man has to suffer for his actions.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: emindead on March 25, 2011, 04:05:59 PM
And Sunday comes afterwards.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 26, 2011, 03:54:53 AM
It's Judgment Day, Judgment Day
Gotta get down on Judgment Day
Everybody's lookin' forward to the end times, end times
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: El JoNNo on March 27, 2011, 05:34:32 AM
Yes we are! Jesus will come May 21st! Mark your calendars, it's the day after "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day"
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ack44 on March 27, 2011, 06:15:12 AM
I thought it was supposed to be March 21???
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on April 28, 2011, 05:56:06 AM
It's Judgment Day, Judgment Day
Gotta get down on Judgment Day
Everybody's lookin' forward to the end times, end times

Your funny. Keep the fun rolling!
Wars, earthquakes, tornadoes, floods. Its all just a normal occurrence. Happens every year.

Read Matthew chapter 24.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PraXis on April 28, 2011, 10:21:17 AM
Not sure if we're in "end times" (whatever you think that means), but I have plenty of food, water, and ammo stored for the family so I don't care.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on April 28, 2011, 10:52:45 AM
It's Judgment Day, Judgment Day
Gotta get down on Judgment Day
Everybody's lookin' forward to the end times, end times

Your funny. Keep the fun rolling!
Wars, earthquakes, tornadoes, floods. Its all just a normal occurrence. Happens every year.


Read Matthew chapter 24.

Is this supposed to be sarcasm?  Because those things have happened every year for as long as we've had sticks to beat each other with.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: El JoNNo on April 28, 2011, 12:39:22 PM
It's Judgment Day, Judgment Day
Gotta get down on Judgment Day
Everybody's lookin' forward to the end times, end times

Your funny. Keep the fun rolling!
Wars, earthquakes, tornadoes, floods. Its all just a normal occurrence. Happens every year.

Read Matthew chapter 24.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I agree very appropriate!
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: sneakyblueberry on May 01, 2011, 05:52:29 AM
I heard an interesting sermon on Eschatology on the weekend.  Totally challenged the 'classic' Christian view. The preach was basically about how screwed up most Christian's view is on the whole thing.  We seem to focus so much on the negative aspect when we should remain hopeful.  Also, the whole thing about the world slowly descending into chaos until Christ comes and takes us all away with the rapture, apart from being pretty unrealistic, doesn't give us much of a reason to care much for the world.  Which is very dangerous.  Someone has surely said that already though.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: The Degenerate on May 01, 2011, 01:03:51 PM
It's Judgment Day, Judgment Day
Gotta get down on Judgment Day
Everybody's lookin' forward to the end times, end times

Your funny. Keep the fun rolling!
Wars, earthquakes, tornadoes, floods. Its all just a normal occurrence. Happens every year.

Uhm... they do, actually. :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 01, 2011, 02:32:58 PM
The Lord Himself can't convince a man set in his convictions.  Which is basically a fancy way of saying nothing anyone can say will convince the doomsayers otherwise.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 02, 2011, 03:39:12 PM
Maybe we are? Maybe its not really the end of life, but the end of an era. Closing the book and beginning the next.
 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 02, 2011, 06:41:08 PM
A good quote from Jon Stewart I just discovered: "We live in hard times, not the end times."
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on May 02, 2011, 08:45:59 PM
I think it's even a stretch to say you're living in hard times if you're a Westerner.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: sneakyblueberry on May 02, 2011, 09:01:16 PM
I think it's even a stretch to say you're living in hard times if you're a Westerner.

Word.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 02, 2011, 09:03:41 PM
Well of course, although it is hard for me to watch my fellow Westerners run themselves into the ground because they think their lives are so destitute.  Does that count? :biggrin:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Big Crouton on May 02, 2011, 11:39:12 PM
https://www.familyradio.com/index2.html

This seems rather relevant to the thread.

The links on the left spell out the logic.

God couldn't have made it more clear.  He's coming back on May 21st.  Hallelujah!



in case it's not clear, this post is dripping with sarcasm.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Perpetual Change on May 03, 2011, 01:36:54 AM
Family radio's several failed predictions should be more than enough to keep anyone from taking them seriously ever again.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 03, 2011, 08:18:56 PM
https://www.familyradio.com/index2.html

This seems rather relevant to the thread.

The links on the left spell out the logic.

God couldn't have made it more clear.  He's coming back on May 21st.  Hallelujah!



in case it's not clear, this post is dripping with sarcasm.
They have a billboard up about this on the street near my office.  I giggle every time I pass it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on May 04, 2011, 09:34:40 AM
Family radio's several failed predictions should be more than enough to keep anyone from taking them seriously ever again.
No it will not. Why would you even think such a thing?  A bunch of crack pots have no bearing on whatever the true reality is. There has always been nut balls, their always will be.
I believe we are in the end times, and that may mean 10 years or 100. I see too much evidence to feel otherwise. That is MY PERSONAL opinion, and is not subject to change.

Edited to say...you meant family radio, not the end times. Ok, I get cha now.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: El JoNNo on May 04, 2011, 09:57:07 AM
I will make a prediction! End times will occur within 10 years or the next 25 trillion. Just my opinion, though.




Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on May 04, 2011, 10:25:29 AM
I will make a prediction! End times will occur within 10 years or the next 25 trillion. Just my opinion, though.






So you acknowledge the world is going to end?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 04, 2011, 10:26:52 AM
I think most people of faith (or lack thereof) acknowledge the world is going to end.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Tick on May 04, 2011, 10:29:52 AM
I think most people of faith (or lack thereof) acknowledge the world is going to end.
Are you trying to squash the life out of my little one liner?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: El JoNNo on May 04, 2011, 10:30:44 AM
I will make a prediction! End times will occur within 10 years or the next 25 trillion. Just my opinion, though.
So you acknowledge the world is going to end?


Our Sun will eventually destroy the Earth.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: sonatafanica on May 04, 2011, 10:32:42 AM
I will make a prediction! End times will occur within 10 years or the next 25 trillion. Just my opinion, though.
So you acknowledge the world is going to end?


Our Sun will eventually destroy the Earth.

Which will be fucking awesome, by the way.


And that's assuming that some other thing in the universe doesn't crash into us or radiate the shit out of us first.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 04, 2011, 10:36:53 AM
I think most people of faith (or lack thereof) acknowledge the world is going to end.
Are you trying to squash the life out of my little one liner?

:(  Sorry.


I will make a prediction! End times will occur within 10 years or the next 25 trillion. Just my opinion, though.
So you acknowledge the world is going to end?


The Son will eventually destroy the Earth.

I agree.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: El JoNNo on May 04, 2011, 10:39:43 AM
Oh you Christian rascal.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ryzee on May 04, 2011, 10:41:42 AM
I will make a prediction! End times will occur within 10 years or the next 25 trillion. Just my opinion, though.
So you acknowledge the world is going to end?


Our Sun will eventually destroy the Earth.

Once we get the word that that's about to happen I'm gonna send my son into space in a little capsule thingy so he can go be a badass on some other planet.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Nighthawkwill7 on May 04, 2011, 11:08:47 AM
(https://www.jaydax.co.uk/imho/images/earth-red-giant.jpg)

What a way to go indeed  :metal
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Implode on May 04, 2011, 12:40:26 PM
The best part that the Earth won't just melt into nothing immediately. It'll continue to orbit inside the sun for a bit.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 04, 2011, 01:49:06 PM
That's horrifying if you ask me.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Nighthawkwill7 on May 04, 2011, 02:30:59 PM
The sun is still 5,000,000,000 years from reaching it's Red Giant stage so we've got nothing to worry about.  :tup

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Solar_Life_Cycle.svg)

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 04, 2011, 04:12:01 PM
I thought that was just a guesstimate?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: emindead on May 04, 2011, 05:14:00 PM
Those were the end of tiiiimes!!!
But then came the call!!!!
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Nighthawkwill7 on May 04, 2011, 05:22:00 PM
Well, The Sun's age can be determined through carbon dating of matter in our solar system

Here's an article that explains as much and also goes into the math of determining a star's life.

https://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=389

There's also tons of info regarding Heliophysics on this official NASA webpage, Makes for quite interesting reading!  :tup

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sunearth/overview/index.html
 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Perpetual Change on May 04, 2011, 08:38:12 PM
I have no doubt that the world will end, I just don't see what's going on now that makes it so much more likely to be soon.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 08, 2011, 11:19:27 AM
Its gonna be a major change of our lifestyles, and way of thinking.

Its time to make a change
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: El JoNNo on May 08, 2011, 06:16:53 PM
Fuck me, I saw a May 21st judgement day sign here in Canada! UGH!!
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: El JoNNo on May 08, 2011, 06:18:49 PM
You know what I find funny? These people who claim to take the bible literally and have deduced the day of reckoning must have skipped over Mathew 24:36-40.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 09, 2011, 09:09:28 AM
You know what I find funny? These people who claim to take the bible literally and have deduced the day of reckoning must have skipped over Mathew 24:36-40.

It feels like this should never happen under any circumstances, but:  I completely and without any reservation or exception agree with El Jonno about something he posted about the Bible.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on May 09, 2011, 09:18:38 AM
Uh oh.




THE END IS NIGH!
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 09, 2011, 09:26:09 AM
:lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on May 09, 2011, 12:02:08 PM
And for those of us who haven't read the bible?... what verse is that?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 09, 2011, 12:06:51 PM
And for those of us who haven't read the bible?... what verse is that?

It basically says that only god knows when the end will come, and no man can know, nor angel and so forth.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: El JoNNo on May 09, 2011, 02:35:36 PM
You know what I find funny? These people who claim to take the bible literally and have deduced the day of reckoning must have skipped over Mathew 24:36-40.

It feels like this should never happen under any circumstances, but:  I completely and without any reservation or exception agree with El Jonno about something he posted about the Bible.

Do you feel dirty as well?  :-[
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 15, 2012, 02:03:07 PM
So, didn't think it needed a new thread, but I happened to stumble upon this a little while ago - and thought it was interesting

https://www.the-end.com/

May 27, 2012 we're all goners apparently
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 15, 2012, 02:06:21 PM
I'll mark it down in my calendar, just as I cross out the 26 we had last year.........

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 15, 2012, 02:07:02 PM
So, didn't think it needed a new thread, but I happened to stumble upon this a little while ago - and thought it was interesting

https://www.the-end.com/

May 27, 2012 we're all goners apparently


*sigh*   ::)  Stuff like that really annoys me.  The Bible contains TONS of prophesies, yes.  But NONE of them have anything to do with what that author says they have to do with.  Just another attempt to prey on the gullible and ill informed.  :rant:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 15, 2012, 02:12:54 PM
So, didn't think it needed a new thread, but I happened to stumble upon this a little while ago - and thought it was interesting

https://www.the-end.com/

May 27, 2012 we're all goners apparently


*sigh*   ::)  Stuff like that really annoys me.  The Bible contains TONS of prophesies, yes.  But NONE of them have anything to do with what that author says they have to do with.  Just another attempt to prey on the gullible and ill informed.  :rant:

Aren't the presence of prophecies problematic for Matthew 24:36-40? If the Bible were literally true, that is.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 15, 2012, 02:23:31 PM
So, didn't think it needed a new thread, but I happened to stumble upon this a little while ago - and thought it was interesting

https://www.the-end.com/

May 27, 2012 we're all goners apparently


*sigh*   ::)  Stuff like that really annoys me.  The Bible contains TONS of prophesies, yes.  But NONE of them have anything to do with what that author says they have to do with.  Just another attempt to prey on the gullible and ill informed.  :rant:

Aren't the presence of prophecies problematic for Matthew 24:36-40? If the Bible were literally true, that is.

Do you mean the presence of purported modern-day attempts to come up with specific dates?  Yes, that is problematic because, as you pointed out, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 15, 2012, 02:28:48 PM
So, didn't think it needed a new thread, but I happened to stumble upon this a little while ago - and thought it was interesting

https://www.the-end.com/

May 27, 2012 we're all goners apparently


*sigh*   ::)  Stuff like that really annoys me.  The Bible contains TONS of prophesies, yes.  But NONE of them have anything to do with what that author says they have to do with.  Just another attempt to prey on the gullible and ill informed.  :rant:

Aren't the presence of prophecies problematic for Matthew 24:36-40? If the Bible were literally true, that is.

Do you mean the presence of purported modern-day attempts to come up with specific dates?  Yes, that is problematic because, as you pointed out, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

I'm not entirely sure that's true. I've asked Hef multiple times when the world will end, he just keeps shrugging his shoulders.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: yeshaberto on May 15, 2012, 02:31:26 PM
sweet, my mortgage payment is due on the 28th!

I'm with bosk, though...these endless silly predictions are annoying
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 15, 2012, 02:33:07 PM
So, didn't think it needed a new thread, but I happened to stumble upon this a little while ago - and thought it was interesting

https://www.the-end.com/

May 27, 2012 we're all goners apparently


*sigh*   ::)  Stuff like that really annoys me.  The Bible contains TONS of prophesies, yes.  But NONE of them have anything to do with what that author says they have to do with.  Just another attempt to prey on the gullible and ill informed.  :rant:

Aren't the presence of prophecies problematic for Matthew 24:36-40? If the Bible were literally true, that is.

Do you mean the presence of purported modern-day attempts to come up with specific dates?  Yes, that is problematic because, as you pointed out, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

No, I mean, why are their prophecies in the Bible at all, if only the God knows when the world will end? Don't prophecies pretend to know such things?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 15, 2012, 02:34:08 PM
I think if god existed, and had a realllllly sick sense of humor (I'm talking SonataFanica sick), then it would destroy the world on Dec 20th 2012.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 15, 2012, 02:34:53 PM
We know how all will end. Scientists tell us that the universe is expanding, and everything in it is growing farther and farther apart. As it does so, it grows colder and colder, and its energy is used up. Eventually all the stars will burn out and all matter will collapse into dead stars and black holes. There will be no light at all; there will be no heat; there will be no life; only the corpses of dead stars and galaxies, ever expanding into the endless darkness and the cold recesses of space; a universe in ruins. The entire universe marches irreversibly toward its grave. So not only is the life of each individual person doomed; the entire human race is doomed. The universe is plunging toward inevitable extinction—death is written throughout its structure. There is no escape. There is no hope.

 :sadpanda:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 15, 2012, 02:36:51 PM
We know how all will end. Scientists tell us that the universe is expanding, and everything in it is growing farther and farther apart. As it does so, it grows colder and colder, and its energy is used up. Eventually all the stars will burn out and all matter will collapse into dead stars and black holes. There will be no light at all; there will be no heat; there will be no life; only the corpses of dead stars and galaxies, ever expanding into the endless darkness and the cold recesses of space; a universe in ruins. The entire universe marches irreversibly toward its grave. So not only is the life of each individual person doomed; the entire human race is doomed. The universe is plunging toward inevitable extinction—death is written throughout its structure. There is no escape. There is no hope.

 :sadpanda:

....do you work for Halmark?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 15, 2012, 02:38:21 PM
Are we in the end times? Almost definitely not.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 15, 2012, 02:38:51 PM
Isn't it Hallmark?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 15, 2012, 02:38:56 PM
So, didn't think it needed a new thread, but I happened to stumble upon this a little while ago - and thought it was interesting

https://www.the-end.com/

May 27, 2012 we're all goners apparently


*sigh*   ::)  Stuff like that really annoys me.  The Bible contains TONS of prophesies, yes.  But NONE of them have anything to do with what that author says they have to do with.  Just another attempt to prey on the gullible and ill informed.  :rant:

Aren't the presence of prophecies problematic for Matthew 24:36-40? If the Bible were literally true, that is.

In the *complete* context of Matt 24...it seems clear that while we would not know the *exact* day or hour (or even month or year) there would be world conditions that would give away when it was close.   Then AFTER vs 40 he says that his servants should stay on the watch and be ready....because everyone else would be carrying on with business as usual...ignoring the signs that the end was near.

Example.  We can get a due date for when a baby is supposed to come....but no idea *EXACTLY* when the baby will come.   But when the mommy's getting really big...you know it will be any day now.  But exactly which day?  No one has any clue.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 15, 2012, 02:39:50 PM
We know how all will end. Scientists tell us that the universe is expanding, and everything in it is growing farther and farther apart. As it does so, it grows colder and colder, and its energy is used up. Eventually all the stars will burn out and all matter will collapse into dead stars and black holes. There will be no light at all; there will be no heat; there will be no life; only the corpses of dead stars and galaxies, ever expanding into the endless darkness and the cold recesses of space; a universe in ruins. The entire universe marches irreversibly toward its grave. So not only is the life of each individual person doomed; the entire human race is doomed. The universe is plunging toward inevitable extinction—death is written throughout its structure. There is no escape. There is no hope.

 :sadpanda:

....do you work for Halmark?

 :rollin
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 15, 2012, 02:41:18 PM
Is our president a black Democrat who is simultaneously a Communist and a Nazi, despite the two ideologies being diametrically opposed? I'm expecting the end any day now.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 15, 2012, 02:43:03 PM
Is our president a black Democrat who is simultaneously a Communist and a Nazi, despite the two ideologies being diametrically opposed? I'm expecting the end any day now.
And a Muslim. Don't forget Muslim.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 15, 2012, 02:43:28 PM
Isn't it Hallmark?

Not for long.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 15, 2012, 02:47:25 PM
Quote
Example.  We can get a due date for when a baby is supposed to come....but no idea *EXACTLY* when the baby will come.   But when the mommy's getting really big...you know it will be any day now.  But exactly which day?  No one has any clue.

K, fair enough.

We know how all will end. Scientists tell us that the universe is expanding, and everything in it is growing farther and farther apart. As it does so, it grows colder and colder, and its energy is used up. Eventually all the stars will burn out and all matter will collapse into dead stars and black holes. There will be no light at all; there will be no heat; there will be no life; only the corpses of dead stars and galaxies, ever expanding into the endless darkness and the cold recesses of space; a universe in ruins. The entire universe marches irreversibly toward its grave. So not only is the life of each individual person doomed; the entire human race is doomed. The universe is plunging toward inevitable extinction—death is written throughout its structure. There is no escape. There is no hope.

Well, it depends upon which scientists you listen to. What we do know is that the universe appears to be expanding, at this point in time. There are, however, otehr ways of explaining this observed expansion that don't require the universe actually expanding (one is that "time" is leaving the universe, so that things occur more slowly than they used to. This could explain the red shift we observe.

However, I think the more interesting theory I've red regards what happens at the end of the scenario you listed above. Everything could indeed keep expanding, but at some point, when matter is spread out enough, that matter basically goes through a "big bang," and creating another universe. Someone on these boards remembers the name of this theory, but I can't.

So ya, you could be right, and scientists who purport that could be right, but it hasn't quite been verified enough to claim that this end is what we know will occur. We've been observing, scientifically, the sky for only like 500 years, which is basically nothing compared to the universe. There are more than likely aspects of the cosmos we know nothing about, becuase those events simply haven't happened and allowed us to observe them.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 15, 2012, 02:48:36 PM
We know how all will end. We know there is a suggested hypothesis that relies on certain varying assumptions.

Fixed that part for you.  You're welcome.   :hat
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 15, 2012, 02:53:36 PM
Ay ay ay...

Are people really going to deny that our universe is expanding and the consequences that it entails?

And Scheavo, I think you're referring to the Oscillating Universe theory (or the Big Crunch). Either way, the Oscillatory Universe theory is not only fraught with all sorts of problems, but it has also been determined that there is not enough entropy in the universe to warrant a re-coalescence of space-time to produce a cyclical universe.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jsem on May 15, 2012, 02:57:59 PM
Is our president a black Democrat who is simultaneously a Communist and a Nazi, despite the two ideologies being diametrically opposed? I'm expecting the end any day now.
And a Muslim. Don't forget Muslim.
And Jewish... :rollin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o45I7cVFRSM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o45I7cVFRSM)

Remember when I saw this, I was ROFL.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 15, 2012, 03:00:56 PM
And Scheavo, I think you're referring to the Oscillating Universe theory (or the Big Crunch). Either way, the Oscillatory Universe theory is not only fraught with all sorts of problems, but it has also been determined that there is not enough entropy in the universe to warrant a re-coalescence of space-time to produce a cyclical universe.

Actually, I'm referring to the exact opposite, where matters gets like infinitesimally spread out.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 15, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
And Scheavo, I think you're referring to the Oscillating Universe theory (or the Big Crunch). Either way, the Oscillatory Universe theory is not only fraught with all sorts of problems, but it has also been determined that there is not enough entropy in the universe to warrant a re-coalescence of space-time to produce a cyclical universe.

Actually, I'm referring to the exact opposite, where matters gets like infinitesimally spread out.

Yes, well, that's Heat Death...what I just described. Not sure how, exactly, a dead universe with no energy, no light, no motion, etc, would ever be able to "birth" a new universe, never mind what "birth a new universe" would even entail. The truth that one has to brave up and face, whether one likes it or hates it, is that our universe will "end" in the manner I described. 20th (& 21st) century cosmology could be adequately summed up as a series of failed attempts of not only to avoid an absolute beginning of the universe, but also to avoid the hopeless implications of the heat death of our universe.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 15, 2012, 03:10:07 PM
Ahhh...another thread soon to be locked because someone cant have a discussion without stating a theory/hypothesis/position/belief is not an opinion, but pure and undeniable fact.

 :\
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 15, 2012, 03:11:19 PM
Our universe would indeed end, what I'm pointing out is that this does not necessarily mean that all existence ends, etc.

I'll try and find the theory I'm thinking of. You may not be able to conceive of how it's possible, but luckily there's smart physicists who use math and physical principles to show this can be possible. And I would just like to remind you that I'm not proposing this as the Truth, but simply proposing this as a possible result.

Have you ever talked with physicists and astrophysicists? They're usually very skeptical people, who realize that what they're observing is but a part of reality, and they don't draw such affirmative strong opinions as you do.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jsem on May 15, 2012, 03:14:10 PM
In fact, a lot of theoretical physicists wouldn't even dare to describe what reality is. Because, they don't know.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 15, 2012, 03:27:37 PM
In fact, a lot of theoretical physicists wouldn't even dare to describe what reality is. Because, they don't know.

Theoretical Physicists, the experts, may not know....but......
(https://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa237/eric42434224/the-shadow-knows.jpg)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jsem on May 15, 2012, 03:27:58 PM
:letam:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 15, 2012, 03:37:47 PM
I think the problem here is that many of you assume that all theories are equally probable and therefore equally valid. Yes, I acknowledge that there exist other "theories" for both the beginning of existence (or lack thereof) of our universe and of its inevitable fate. Yet just because they "exist" doesn't entail that one should be skeptical of all others and declare them all standing as equally probable. But the hard truth is that all the evidence we have gathered points clearly to both a beginning of existence of our universe (indeed an absolute beginning) and the heat death of our universe. The evidence supporting both the beginning of our universe and its heat death are so overwhelming and the evidence against them so underwhelming that these two assertions can be as closely accepted as established facts, not mere "opinions" or "far fetched hypotheses". As I said, whether you like it or hate it, the likelihood of the universe both having begun to exist and its inevitable heat death is positively overwhelming, an no amount of bickering will change that (nor will desperately throwing ludicrous counter-hypotheses such as "bubble-universes" or the "many worlds hypothesis" which have been, for the large part, obviously conjured up not with the pursuit of scientific wisdom in mind, but rather as a desperate, last-ditch attempt to avoid a beginning of the universe and its end).
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 15, 2012, 03:43:29 PM
I don't think it's an issue of whether one does in fact "like it or hate it."  I don't think anyone really cares.  And most acknowledge that we really don't have enough evidence in to take a hard position on how the universe will end, even if we did care enough to debate it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: yeshaberto on May 15, 2012, 03:47:46 PM
So, didn't think it needed a new thread, but I happened to stumble upon this a little while ago - and thought it was interesting

https://www.the-end.com/

May 27, 2012 we're all goners apparently


*sigh*   ::)  Stuff like that really annoys me.  The Bible contains TONS of prophesies, yes.  But NONE of them have anything to do with what that author says they have to do with.  Just another attempt to prey on the gullible and ill informed.  :rant:

Aren't the presence of prophecies problematic for Matthew 24:36-40? If the Bible were literally true, that is.

Do you mean the presence of purported modern-day attempts to come up with specific dates?  Yes, that is problematic because, as you pointed out, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

No, I mean, why are their prophecies in the Bible at all, if only the God knows when the world will end? Don't prophecies pretend to know such things?

the rest of Matt 24-25 details the reason that Jesus warned of the end of time.  and the biblical prophecies indicate it will be immediate and universally catastrophic (rather than a slow process over time). 
the point is to remind us that our lives are fragile and to live as "wise servants" rather than "foolish"
if I know that the boss is coming to the job site at any time, it will affect my behavior
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: skydivingninja on May 15, 2012, 03:50:40 PM
Is our president a black Democrat who is simultaneously a Communist and a Nazi, despite the two ideologies being diametrically opposed? I'm expecting the end any day now.
And a Muslim. Don't forget Muslim.

He's also a secret Kenyan atheist radical who declares wars on marriage. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 15, 2012, 03:55:09 PM
I think the problem here is that many of you assume that all theories are equally probable and therefore equally valid. Yes, I acknowledge that there exist other "theories" for both the beginning of existence (or lack thereof) of our universe and of its inevitable fate. Yet just because they "exist" doesn't entail that one should be skeptical of all others and declare them all standing as equally probable. But the hard truth is that all the evidence we have gathered points clearly to both a beginning of existence of our universe (indeed an absolute beginning) and the heat death of our universe. The evidence supporting both the beginning of our universe and its heat death are so overwhelming and the evidence against them so underwhelming that these two assertions can be as closely accepted as established facts, not mere "opinions" or "far fetched hypotheses". As I said, whether you like it or hate it, the likelihood of the universe both having begun to exist and its inevitable heat death is positively overwhelming, an no amount of bickering will change that (nor will desperately throwing ludicrous counter-hypotheses such as "bubble-universes" or the "many worlds hypothesis" which have been, for the large part, obviously conjured up not with the pursuit of scientific wisdom in mind, but rather as a desperate, last-ditch attempt to avoid a beginning of the universe and its end).

Hear that Theoretical Physicists?  Fact.  Boom.
Omega has spoken.

If we all just agree to accept all your opinions as facts, will you stop talking about them, so we can have fewer topics derailed/locked?

Thx


EDIT:  And just to be clear, it is obvious we dont give all theories equal validity.  What we do, is understand what a theory/hypothesis is, and understand that it is based on assumptions that may, or may not be correct.  We are also not so close minded as to think the most reasonable or popular theory -at this time- cant be changed or outright disproven in the future.  We realize that there is one fact in this particular discussion.....that there is a lot more we dont know about the Universe.  A little over a century ago, the atom was the smallest component in the universe.....but YOU know the beginning and eventual fate of the UNIVERSE.  Right  :\
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 15, 2012, 04:25:26 PM
I think the problem here is that many of you assume that all theories are equally probable and therefore equally valid. Yes, I acknowledge that there exist other "theories" for both the beginning of existence (or lack thereof) of our universe and of its inevitable fate. Yet just because they "exist" doesn't entail that one should be skeptical of all others and declare them all standing as equally probable. But the hard truth is that all the evidence we have gathered points clearly to both a beginning of existence of our universe (indeed an absolute beginning) and the heat death of our universe. The evidence supporting both the beginning of our universe and its heat death are so overwhelming and the evidence against them so underwhelming that these two assertions can be as closely accepted as established facts, not mere "opinions" or "far fetched hypotheses". As I said, whether you like it or hate it, the likelihood of the universe both having begun to exist and its inevitable heat death is positively overwhelming, an no amount of bickering will change that (nor will desperately throwing ludicrous counter-hypotheses such as "bubble-universes" or the "many worlds hypothesis" which have been, for the large part, obviously conjured up not with the pursuit of scientific wisdom in mind, but rather as a desperate, last-ditch attempt to avoid a beginning of the universe and its end).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bf7BXwVeyWw

No, it's not a "last-ditch effort," it's a serious effort to understand the world we observe.




Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 15, 2012, 06:10:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bf7BXwVeyWw

No, it's not a "last-ditch effort," it's a serious effort to understand the world we observe.

There’s no evidence that such a world ensemble exists. Nobody knows if there even are other parallel universes at all. Indeed, you might agree with William Lane Craig that even if there is such a multiverse, it wouldn’t really undermine the kalām argument anyway, since the past of the multiverse must also be finite and thus in need of a temporal cause. If an individual is willing to believe that a multiverse or some sort of "world ensemble" exists without any evidence to support their belief, then how can such an individual ever criticize another who believes in a God for which "no evidence" exists?

Also, Scheavo, the reason why so many atheists and non-believers even hold to the baseless belief that a multiverse exists is simply to be able to explain away the incomprehensibly intricate fine-tuning of the universe we observe by appealing to a an ensemble of an infinite amount of universes, making our "unique" universe seem like the mere product of inevitable chance. In other words, the multiverse hypothesis is appealed to in an attempt to explain away the fine-tuning of the universe we observe.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 15, 2012, 06:33:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bf7BXwVeyWw

No, it's not a "last-ditch effort," it's a serious effort to understand the world we observe.

There’s no evidence that such a world ensemble exists. Nobody knows if there even are other parallel universes at all.f the universe we observe.

Quote
In other words, the multiverse hypothesis is appealed to in an attempt to explain away the fine-tuning of the universe we observe.

Holy fuck, now you're objection is to the theory is that it might possibly explain what we see? Ya know, every single hypothesis that has ever been developed was done so "in an attempt to explain away the fine-tuning of the universe we observe." If you carefully listen at the end, you'll notice how he nicely explains the answers you looking for may not be there, simply becuase they're not there. You're trying to ascertain why the earth is as far  away from the sun as it is, as if there's a reason, when looking for a reason is looking at the thing all wrong.



Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 15, 2012, 07:05:38 PM
Well, we won't know for at least another few trillion years anyway, so why worry?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 15, 2012, 07:27:33 PM
Holy fuck, now you're objection is to the theory is that it might possibly explain what we see?

Of course not. My objection to it was "there’s no evidence that such a world ensemble exists. Nobody knows if there even are other parallel universes at all. Indeed, you might agree with William Lane Craig that even if there is such a multiverse, it wouldn’t really undermine the kalām argument anyway, since the past of the multiverse must also be finite and thus in need of a temporal cause."

I was merely emphasizing that the multiverse theory, as there is no evidence to even support it -- it is all mere conjecture -- was thought up merely to avoid the problem of the fine-tuning of our universe. This way, one could merely appeal to the multiverse to explain the fine-tuning of our universe. Why is our universe so intricately fine-tuned to allow for the formation of life? "Dude, like, the multiverse can explain all that, bro. I don't need to believe in some magical tooth fairy to explain that haha" one such atheist may quip. But, as I said, it's incredibly preposterous for one who believes in the multiverse for which there is no evidence to turn around and blast theists for allegedly believing in a God for whom there isn't "any evidence" "either".
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 15, 2012, 07:53:07 PM
Holy fuck, now you're objection is to the theory is that it might possibly explain what we see?

Of course not. My objection to it was "there’s no evidence that such a world ensemble exists. Nobody knows if there even are other parallel universes at all. Indeed, you might agree with William Lane Craig that even if there is such a multiverse, it wouldn’t really undermine the kalām argument anyway, since the past of the multiverse must also be finite and thus in need of a temporal cause."

I was merely emphasizing that the multiverse theory, as there is no evidence to even support it -- it is all mere conjecture -- was thought up merely to avoid the problem of the fine-tuning of our universe. This way, one could merely appeal to the multiverse to explain the fine-tuning of our universe. Why is our universe so intricately fine-tuned to allow for the formation of life? "Dude, like, the multiverse can explain all that, bro. I don't need to believe in some magical tooth fairy to explain that haha" one such atheist may quip. But, as I said, it's incredibly preposterous for one who believes in the multiverse for which there is no evidence to turn around and blast theists for allegedly believing in a God for whom there isn't "any evidence" "either".

I don't agree with Omega very often...but this post deserves HUGE applause.  Totally agree...
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 15, 2012, 07:54:04 PM
Aaaaaaaand....here we go again.   :facepalm:
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ClairvoyantCat on May 15, 2012, 07:54:51 PM
lol.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 15, 2012, 07:58:08 PM
Aaaaaaaand....here we go again.   :facepalm:

lol.

And posts like this contribute to discussion how?  Knock it off, both of you.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 15, 2012, 08:45:11 PM
I was merely emphasizing that the multiverse theory, as there is no evidence to even support it -- it is all mere conjecture -- was thought up merely to avoid the problem of the fine-tuning of our universe. This way, one could merely appeal to the multiverse to explain the fine-tuning of our universe. Why is our universe so intricately fine-tuned to allow for the formation of life? "Dude, like, the multiverse can explain all that, bro. I don't need to believe in some magical tooth fairy to explain that haha" one such atheist may quip. But, as I said, it's incredibly preposterous for one who believes in the multiverse for which there is no evidence to turn around and blast theists for allegedly believing in a God for whom there isn't "any evidence" "either".

And once again you continue to demonstrate the fact that you don't seem to be putting any serious effort into understanding what I'm saying.

I'm not saying, accept this theory of the multiverse. I'm not doing that for the reasons you've given. What I am doing is giving you a differing worldview, one that is consistent and logical, and which can explain the same facts of life we encounter. It doesn't mean it's scientifically proven, but such theories are scientifically consistent, meaning you trying to just wash them away shows a clear prejudice, and a clear desire that there be a God sans every other piece of evidence.

And remember, I have not and never have said you are wrong. I have never said your theory is inadequate, or that it couldn't explain reality - I have only said that any "proofs" you have brought to the table are full of wholes and don't prove anything.




Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ultimetalhead on May 15, 2012, 09:40:49 PM
So, didn't think it needed a new thread, but I happened to stumble upon this a little while ago - and thought it was interesting

https://www.the-end.com/

May 27, 2012 we're all goners apparently


*sigh*   ::)  Stuff like that really annoys me.  The Bible contains TONS of prophesies, yes.  But NONE of them have anything to do with what that author says they have to do with.  Just another attempt to prey on the gullible and ill informed.  :rant:
Seems like this new book and the bible seem to have some inherent similarities.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on May 15, 2012, 09:57:52 PM
I was merely emphasizing that the multiverse theory, as there is no evidence to even support it -- it is all mere conjecture -- was thought up merely to avoid the problem of the fine-tuning of our universe. This way, one could merely appeal to the multiverse to explain the fine-tuning of our universe. Why is our universe so intricately fine-tuned to allow for the formation of life? "Dude, like, the multiverse can explain all that, bro. I don't need to believe in some magical tooth fairy to explain that haha" one such atheist may quip. But, as I said, it's incredibly preposterous for one who believes in the multiverse for which there is no evidence to turn around and blast theists for allegedly believing in a God for whom there isn't "any evidence" "either".
I agree with you about the multiverse. But I think that "fine tuning" is a loaded term because it assigns an inherently positive value to life. Why is a universe with life superior to one without it? Simply because we say so.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 15, 2012, 09:59:15 PM
Holy fuck, now you're objection is to the theory is that it might possibly explain what we see?

Of course not. My objection to it was "there’s no evidence that such a world ensemble exists. Nobody knows if there even are other parallel universes at all. Indeed, you might agree with William Lane Craig that even if there is such a multiverse, it wouldn’t really undermine the kalām argument anyway, since the past of the multiverse must also be finite and thus in need of a temporal cause."

I was merely emphasizing that the multiverse theory, as there is no evidence to even support it -- it is all mere conjecture -- was thought up merely to avoid the problem of the fine-tuning of our universe. This way, one could merely appeal to the multiverse to explain the fine-tuning of our universe. Why is our universe so intricately fine-tuned to allow for the formation of life? "Dude, like, the multiverse can explain all that, bro. I don't need to believe in some magical tooth fairy to explain that haha" one such atheist may quip. But, as I said, it's incredibly preposterous for one who believes in the multiverse for which there is no evidence to turn around and blast theists for allegedly believing in a God for whom there isn't "any evidence" "either".

I don't agree with Omega very often...but this post deserves HUGE applause.  Totally agree...

To be fair, by the same logic one could say that the belief in a creator is merely a way to avoid the problem of our universe being happenstance.



EDIT: My point is that these ideas assume a truth that is merely a belief, and then dismisses other beliefs as merely being ways of avoiding the truth that we have somehow come to.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 15, 2012, 10:06:59 PM
Yup.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: SeRoX on May 15, 2012, 10:09:51 PM
I wish we were. The world is being unbearable.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 16, 2012, 08:46:06 AM
This guy is fascinating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLEUSunaVIo

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 16, 2012, 08:48:18 AM
DOOM AND GLOOM!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5PLf-2FYIM&feature=channel&list=UL
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 16, 2012, 11:46:45 AM
^ :lol

I've been listening to his playlist of pro-life and WWIII-warning carols. It's hilarious. :lol

According to this guy, WWIII officially began in Nov. 2010, when Obama "provoked" North Korea. Given that it's only supposed to last 7 years, according to him, it better escalate pretty fucking quickly if it's going to finish on time.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyHP76JvVCE&feature=relmfu

"11, of course, is a homosexual number"  :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 16, 2012, 12:11:20 PM
Doom and Gloom  (Third Eagle's Tune)

Doom and Gloom
Coming Soon
Listen to Third Eagle's tune
Doom and Gloom
God is telling us the end is coming soon
Very soon
You'll see signs up in the sun, stars and moon
Doom and Gloom
Very Soon
Rapture comes at night or noon
Doom and Gloom
Very Soon
If you're ready you will meet the bride and groom
Don't be dumb
Rapture comes
long before the seventh trump
don't be dumb
It will be as in the days of Noah's flood
Rapture comes
Lot and Noah did not have to shed their blood
Don't be dumb
Rapture comes
Twim your wick or face the gun
Don't be dumb
Rapture comes
Fill your lamps
There won't be oil for everyone
Seven years
Tears and Fears
Tribulation will appear
Seven years
Jesus said it will be the very worst
tears and fears
your will think our lovely planet has been cursed
Seven years
Tears and fears
Catholic church will be a ghost
Seven years, tears and fears
Britain, Russia and the US will be toast
World war three, don't blame me
Listen to Third Eagle's plea
World war three
that the new world order plan for what it's worth
don't blame me
'cause Obama will provoke the king of North
World war three, don't blame me
You'll have no 'lectricity
Wold war three, don't blame me
Store some water food and fuel immediately
Antichrist, he's not nice
Take Third Eagle's good advice
Antichrist
He will try to say that Jesus is not lord
He's not nice
He'll behead you if you follow Jesus' word
Antichrist, he's not nice
Take his mark, you'll pay the price
Antichrist, he's not nice
He will take away God'd holy sacrifice
Please don't dread
Armaged'
Have no fear third eagle said
Please don't dread
Jesus said that he will stop the death and pain
Armaged'
Only new world order scum will feel the flame
Please don't dread, Armaged'
Antichrist is such a liar
Please don't dread, Armaged'
If you take his mark you'll join him in the fire
You can win, just don't sin
State of grace you must stay in
You can win
If you never do the filthy sins of flesh
Just don't sin
Think of Mary and her baby in the creche
You can win, just don't sin
Please don't watch pornograpy
You can win, just don't sin
Onan's sin is what will make your God angry
You can win
Just don't sin
At Millenium
God's Peace
Will come again

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 16, 2012, 02:38:01 PM
I agree with you about the multiverse. But I think that "fine tuning" is a loaded term because it assigns an inherently positive value to life. Why is a universe with life superior to one without it? Simply because we say so.

No, I never attached any sort of quantitative value to a universe that is life permitting (though, obviously, I would prefer one that is). The point is that we do, obviously, observe that our universe is life permitting and we must arrive at a reason as to why it is life permitting, considering that the chances of it being non-life permitting would have been preposterously and infinitely more probable. At this point, as I would be critical of, the typical atheists simply appeals to the multiverse hypothesis, which, for reasons I've already outlined, would be intellectually disingenuous. Also to note is that the term "fine-tuning" is a term that is completely devoid of any religious or theistic overtones. The term is merely used to describe the complexity and order that we observe in the universe and one which atheistic and agnostic cosmologists and philosophers of science, etc, use without reserve and which one would be unreasonable to deny.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on May 16, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
The point is that we do, obviously, observe that our universe is life permitting and we must arrive at a reason as to why it is life permitting, considering that the chances of it being non-life permitting would have been preposterously and infinitely more probable.

We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are. Saying something like "oh if the charge of an electron were different life could never exist", while possibly true, is meaningless because we have no idea whether it's even possible for there to be a universe in which that constant is different.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 16, 2012, 03:20:02 PM
We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are.

I see no reason to think that there exist other universes than our own. You may or may not agree with that, but it bears mentioning, nonetheless.

Quote
Saying something like "oh if the charge of an electron were different life could never exist", while possibly true, is meaningless because we have no idea whether it's even possible for there to be a universe in which that constant is different.

In an atheistic worldview, I see no reason to think that the parameters for the fine-tuning of the universe are due to anything but mere chance. Unless, of course, one would be foolhardy enough to assert that the parameters of the universal constants which our universe exhibits exist necessarily and consistently in all possible universes at the exact values in which they do, which simply shifts the question to "what was responsible for setting the parameters of the universal constants in the narrow, unchangeable value that they are in now?" Not only would the atheist have to explain how our universe exhibits fine-tuning that allows for the formation of life to the degree that it does, but then would also have to explain how all other possible universes exhibit the exact fine-tuning parameters as our own. No atheistic or agnostic philosopher that I know of has been audacious enough to ever support such an assertion.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 16, 2012, 03:22:12 PM
We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are.

I see no reason to think that there exist other universes than our own. You may or may not agree with that, but it bears mentioning, nonetheless.

So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 16, 2012, 03:29:13 PM
So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?

I wouldn't say that God exists in his own "universe". God is pure Actuality, pure Being. God is the purest form of existence, of reality. Understood correctly, God is the locus and paradigm of all existence. So, yes, before the universe existed, God existed, but God needn't space or time or energy to exist. To imply that He does is to conceive of a great being, yes, but not one worthy of worship and not one properly understood as God by Aristotle and Aquinas, etc.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on May 16, 2012, 03:48:23 PM
We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are.

I see no reason to think that there exist other universes than our own. You may or may not agree with that, but it bears mentioning, nonetheless.

I don't agree or disagree. My point in bringing it up is that even if the constants of the universe are a matter of chance at some point (which is quite possible), we still have no idea about the mechanisms behind it. As a result saying that the constants of our universe are unlikely is unsupportable.

In an atheistic worldview, I see no reason to think that the parameters for the fine-tuning of the universe are due to anything but mere chance.

There's no reason to believe one way or the other. Plus, "they're set in stone" and "it's entirely up to chance and anything could happen" aren't the only two possibilities.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on May 16, 2012, 04:19:15 PM
No, I never attached any sort of quantitative value to a universe that is life permitting (though, obviously, I would prefer one that is). The point is that we do, obviously, observe that our universe is life permitting and we must arrive at a reason as to why it is life permitting, considering that the chances of it being non-life permitting would have been preposterously and infinitely more probable. At this point, as I would be critical of, the typical atheists simply appeals to the multiverse hypothesis, which, for reasons I've already outlined, would be intellectually disingenuous. Also to note is that the term "fine-tuning" is a term that is completely devoid of any religious or theistic overtones. The term is merely used to describe the complexity and order that we observe in the universe and one which atheistic and agnostic cosmologists and philosophers of science, etc, use without reserve and which one would be unreasonable to deny.

Fine-tuning does have theistic overtones because it begs the question "fine tuned by whom?" It's the old watchmaker argument. Evolution shows us that the universe is a blind watchmaker, and that order and complexity (at least as we perceive them) are emergent. The key thing to realize is that we're programmed through DNA to view life as incredibly special. We're always looking for a reason "why" we were put here on planet Earth, but there is no proof of a "why." Only a "how."
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 17, 2012, 08:13:40 AM
Tangentially related:

(https://i.imgur.com/oqPNT.jpg)

Also, I know what you're thinking, and the answer to your question is yes. That is Mike Portnoy.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on May 17, 2012, 10:23:37 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 17, 2012, 02:23:05 PM
So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?

I wouldn't say that God exists in his own "universe". God is pure Actuality, pure Being. God is the purest form of existence, of reality. Understood correctly, God is the locus and paradigm of all existence. So, yes, before the universe existed, God existed, but God needn't space or time or energy to exist. To imply that He does is to conceive of a great being, yes, but not one worthy of worship and not one properly understood as God by Aristotle and Aquinas, etc.

Then I have to ask the question of how this "God" could exist, without the universe existing. Your definition just basically made "God" the Universe. If the Universe doesn't exist, there is no actuality, no Being, and you have just put yourself in a contradictory position.

Besides, saying something is pure "Being" just doesn't make sense. "Being" means a lot of things, most importantly it implies a World and Universe which someone experiences.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 17, 2012, 03:18:54 PM
DOOM AND GLOOM!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5PLf-2FYIM&feature=channel&list=UL

I will wire anybody $100 for a black metal cover of this.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 17, 2012, 04:11:36 PM
So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?

I wouldn't say that God exists in his own "universe". God is pure Actuality, pure Being. God is the purest form of existence, of reality. Understood correctly, God is the locus and paradigm of all existence. So, yes, before the universe existed, God existed, but God needn't space or time or energy to exist. To imply that He does is to conceive of a great being, yes, but not one worthy of worship and not one properly understood as God by Aristotle and Aquinas, etc.

Then I have to ask the question of how this "God" could exist, without the universe existing. Your definition just basically made "God" the Universe. If the Universe doesn't exist, there is no actuality, no Being, and you have just put yourself in a contradictory position.

Besides, saying something is pure "Being" just doesn't make sense. "Being" means a lot of things, most importantly it implies a World and Universe which someone experiences.

Weird....because I totally didn't get any of that out of what he said. He's making sense, and I have no idea where you're drawing your conclusions from.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 17, 2012, 05:09:35 PM
I wonder what god did before our universe existed, and what he will do after our universe dies?  I know he is supposedly out of time, but if he did do something in creating the universe, it seems reasonable to think that creating this universe is not the only thing he has done, or will do.  It follows then that there are perhaps an infinite number of universes.  One wouldnt think of god, being the all omnipotent "purest form of existence, of reality" as a one trick pony.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 17, 2012, 05:34:04 PM
The point is that we do, obviously, observe that our universe is life permitting and we must arrive at a reason as to why it is life permitting, considering that the chances of it being non-life permitting would have been preposterously and infinitely more probable.

We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are. Saying something like "oh if the charge of an electron were different life could never exist", while possibly true, is meaningless because we have no idea whether it's even possible for there to be a universe in which that constant is different.

The following is relevant:

Quote from: Robin Collins
One criticism of the fine-tuning argument is that, as far as we know, there could be a more fundamental law under which the parameters of physics must have the values they do. Thus, given such a law, it is not improbable that the known parameters of physics fall within the life-permitting range.

Besides being entirely speculative, the problem with postulating such a law is that it simply moves the improbability of the fine-tuning up one level, to that of the postulated physical law itself. Under this hypothesis, what is improbable is that all the conceivable fundamental physical laws there could be, the universe just happens to have the one that constrains the parameters of physics in a life-permitting way. Thus, trying to explain the fine-tuning by postulating this sort of fundamental law is like trying to explain why the pattern of rocks below a cliff spell "Welcome to the mountains Robin Collins" by postulating that an earthquake occurred and that all the rocks on the cliff face were arranged in just the right configuration to fall into the pattern in question. Clearly this explanation merely transfers the improbability up one level, since now it seems enormously improbable that of all the possible configurations the rocks could be in on the cliff face, they are in the one which results in the pattern "Welcome to the mountains Robin Collins."

A similar sort of response can be given to the claim that the fine-tuning is not improbable because it might be logically necessary for the parameters of physics to have life-permitting values. That is, according to this claim, the parameters of physics must have life-permitting values in the same way 2 + 2 must equal 4, or the interior angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees in Euclidian geometry. Like the "more fundamental law" proposal above, however, this postulate simply transfers the improbability up one level: of all the laws and parameters of physics that conceivably could have been logically necessary, it seems highly improbable that it would be those that are life-permitting.(3)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 17, 2012, 05:44:08 PM
I think part of the problem is that some people have a very difficult time with the idea life is random.  It reduces our "specialness" in their eyes.  I personally find it makes us even more special.
There is no real evidence either way to prove it is random or planned.  The side of the fence you come down on and defend has much more to do with religious beliefs and ego.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on May 17, 2012, 07:40:33 PM
Quote from: Robin Collins
One criticism of the fine-tuning argument is that, as far as we know, there could be a more fundamental law under which the parameters of physics must have the values they do. Thus, given such a law, it is not improbable that the known parameters of physics fall within the life-permitting range.

Besides being entirely speculative, the problem with postulating such a law is that it simply moves the improbability of the fine-tuning up one level, to that of the postulated physical law itself.

Ironic considering theists propose the most inherently complex fundamental law there could be, which is God.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 17, 2012, 08:16:39 PM
So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?

I wouldn't say that God exists in his own "universe". God is pure Actuality, pure Being. God is the purest form of existence, of reality. Understood correctly, God is the locus and paradigm of all existence. So, yes, before the universe existed, God existed, but God needn't space or time or energy to exist. To imply that He does is to conceive of a great being, yes, but not one worthy of worship and not one properly understood as God by Aristotle and Aquinas, etc.

Then I have to ask the question of how this "God" could exist, without the universe existing. Your definition just basically made "God" the Universe. If the Universe doesn't exist, there is no actuality, no Being, and you have just put yourself in a contradictory position.

Besides, saying something is pure "Being" just doesn't make sense. "Being" means a lot of things, most importantly it implies a World and Universe which someone experiences.

Weird....because I totally didn't get any of that out of what he said. He's making sense, and I have no idea where you're drawing your conclusions from.

Eh, he's not making much sense at all. What the hell is "pure actuality," "pure being"? What is the "purest form" of reality, especially when reality doesn't yet exist? It's meaningless nonsense.

Quote
A similar sort of response can be given to the claim that the fine-tuning is not improbable because it might be logically necessary for the parameters of physics to have life-permitting values. That is, according to this claim, the parameters of physics must have life-permitting values in the same way 2 + 2 must equal 4, or the interior angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees in Euclidian geometry. Like the "more fundamental law" proposal above, however, this postulate simply transfers the improbability up one level: of all the laws and parameters of physics that conceivably could have been logically necessary, it seems highly improbable that it would be those that are life-permitting.(3)

The video I pointed to already showed how faulty this logic is. If there are more than one possibilities, i.e. more than one universe, than even though it might be highly improbable for life-permitting features to be around, then it's simply a matter of having a large enough sample size. I mean, it's highly improbable that I myself exist, not just my parents meeting each other, or them being born, but for the exact sperm which fertilized the egg and led to me.

Simply put, if we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting, that doesn't mean much beyond the fact that we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting. If it wasn't life-permitting, we wouldn't be here, etc.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 17, 2012, 09:53:37 PM
That argument only works (called the anthropic principle, I think) if there are multiple universes. Given a single universe, Sheavo, your argument doesn't show that the FT of the universe was not improbable.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 17, 2012, 10:10:30 PM
Fine-tuning does have theistic overtones because it begs the question "fine tuned by whom?" It's the old watchmaker argument. Evolution shows us that the universe is a blind watchmaker, and that order and complexity (at least as we perceive them) are emergent. The key thing to realize is that we're programmed through DNA to view life as incredibly special. We're always looking for a reason "why" we were put here on planet Earth, but there is no proof of a "why." Only a "how."

This reeks terribly of Dawkins' "central argument" in The God Delusion. It is not logically consistent to take a logic which may or may not be true of evolution and then apply it to the universe. Besides, we have an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the self-evident fine-tuning of the universe in merely cosmological and probabilistic terms. By "fine-tuning," all one means is that small deviations from the constants and quantities in question would render the universe life-prohibiting, or, alternatively, that the range of life-permitting vales is incomprehensibly narrow in comparison to the range of assumable values. We can cite a good number of examples of cosmic fine-tuning. The world is conditioned principally by the values of the fundamental constants such as the fine structure constant, or electromagnetic interaction, or gravitation, or the weak force or the strong force, or the ratio between the mass of a proton and the mass of an electron, etc. When one assigns different values to these constants or forces, on discovers that the proportion of observable universes capable of supporting life is shockingly small. For example, according to the renowned physicist Paul Davies (whose lovely house in Phoenix I've had the pleasure of staying at a couple of times; no, I'm not kidding), changes in either the gravitational constant or the weak force constant of only one part in 10100 would have prevented a life-permitting universe. Observations indicate that at 10-43 second after the Big Bang, the universe was expanding at a fantastically special rate of speed with a total density close to the critical values on the bortderline between recollapse and everlasting expansion. Hawking estimates that a decrease in the expansion rate of even one part in a hundred thousand million million (1000000000000000000000000) one second after the Big Bang would have resulted in the universe's recollapse long ago; a similar increase would have precluded galaxies' condensing out of the expanding matter. Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little as 5%, life would be impossible (Leslie, 1989, pp. 4, 35; Barrow and Tipler, p. 322). Calculations by Brandon Carter show that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 1040, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible (Davies, 1984, p. 242). If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons or all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would not be possible (Leslie, 1989, pp. 39-40 ). If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible, for a variety of different reasons (Leslie, 1988, p. 299).


There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 17, 2012, 10:14:37 PM
There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

Not necessarily.  Disingenous implies an intentional improper motive.  Not everyone who thinks differently than you do has an improper motive.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 17, 2012, 10:15:49 PM

There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

This is exactly why you have so many issues in these discussions.  Your position is correct, everyone in disagreement is not only wrong, but intellectually disingenious.
Not only does it immediately cease any chance for a meaningful discussion or debate, but it is insulting.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 17, 2012, 10:16:49 PM
I wonder what god did before our universe existed, and what he will do after our universe dies?  I know he is supposedly out of time, but if he did do something in creating the universe, it seems reasonable to think that creating this universe is not the only thing he has done, or will do. It follows then that there are perhaps an infinite number of universes.  One wouldnt think of god, being the all omnipotent "purest form of existence, of reality" as a one trick pony.

Eric, this is one of the few times that you'll see me directly responding to you (sorry; it's for both our sake), but what you are touching on (indeed, only scratching the surface of) is the incredibly complex and philosophically heavy (not to mention incredibly interesting) discussion of God's relation with time. I'd encourage you to, perhaps (I know this is wishful thinking), read or watch some of William Lane Craig's videos / writings on God relation with time. And, just to add, your conclusions do not follow. Let's just leave it at that and on an amicable note, shall we?

*this message will self-destruct in 5 seconds*

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 17, 2012, 10:19:24 PM
There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

Not necessarily.  Disingenous implies an intentional improper motive.  Not everyone who thinks differently than you do has an improper motive.

Consider; he who denies that our universe is finely tuned to allow for the formation of life is himself an observer in a universe whose constants and forces are finely tuned to allow for the formation of life. In other words, denying that our universe is finely tuned for the formation of life is self-defeating. That is why I thought the use of "disingenuous" and "demonstrably so" were warranted.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 17, 2012, 10:23:34 PM

Quote
A similar sort of response can be given to the claim that the fine-tuning is not improbable because it might be logically necessary for the parameters of physics to have life-permitting values. That is, according to this claim, the parameters of physics must have life-permitting values in the same way 2 + 2 must equal 4, or the interior angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees in Euclidian geometry. Like the "more fundamental law" proposal above, however, this postulate simply transfers the improbability up one level: of all the laws and parameters of physics that conceivably could have been logically necessary, it seems highly improbable that it would be those that are life-permitting.(3)

The video I pointed to already showed how faulty this logic is. If there are more than one possibilities, i.e. more than one universe, than even though it might be highly improbable for life-permitting features to be around, then it's simply a matter of having a large enough sample size. I mean, it's highly improbable that I myself exist, not just my parents meeting each other, or them being born, but for the exact sperm which fertilized the egg and led to me.

Simply put, if we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting, that doesn't mean much beyond the fact that we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting. If it wasn't life-permitting, we wouldn't be here, etc.

But that is essentially, circular reasoning.   It's that, "Why are we here? Because we're here."...and it doesn't really hold any water.

It's exactly the same as being on a archaeological expedition...finding a very detailed carved statue...and saying, "This is no proof that there were any people here...I can find random rock formations that are very similar...It's only because it's so detailed that you're automatically led to the conclusion that intelligent life made it...we only think it's weird because *we* are the ones that actually found it! Can you *PROVE* that there was ever a person who made this statue?  The very fact that it's here, and that we found it, proves that it IS *IN FACT* HERE and nothing more." 

To me, that's exactly what the "Why are we here? Because we're here." argument sounds like.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 17, 2012, 10:23:49 PM
There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

Not necessarily.  Disingenous implies an intentional improper motive.  Not everyone who thinks differently than you do has an improper motive.

Consider; he who denies that our universe is finely tuned to allow for the formation of life is himself an observer in a universe whose constants and forces are finely tuned to allow for the formation of life. In other words, denying that our universe is finely tuned for the formation of life is self-defeating. That is why I thought the use of "disingenuous" and "demonstrably so" were warranted.

Duly considered.  But not everyone approaches the subject from paradigms that allow them to easily perceive that the universe is, as you put it, finely tuned to allow for the formation of life.  Consequently, their belief to the contrary may not be based whatsoever on any sort of improper motive that would make the label "disingenuous" applicable.

Consider; unfairly slapping labels on anyone who disagrees with you and implying an imroper motive is rude and insulting and more likley to offend than to persuade.  And as I and others have tried to get throug to, that isn't the way we do things here.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 17, 2012, 10:29:07 PM
There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

Not necessarily.  Disingenous implies an intentional improper motive.  Not everyone who thinks differently than you do has an improper motive.

Consider; he who denies that our universe is finely tuned to allow for the formation of life is himself an observer in a universe whose constants and forces are finely tuned to allow for the formation of life. In other words, denying that our universe is finely tuned for the formation of life is self-defeating. That is why I thought the use of "disingenuous" and "demonstrably so" were warranted.

Incorrect.  Circular logic.  Your base all your positions (this and others like Marriage) on your premise being correct and fact. 

Consider;
he who denies that we in a solar system orbiting a star, is himself an observer in a solar system orbiting a star.  In other words, denying we are in a solar system orbiting a star is self-defeating.
Ok.

Consider;
he who denies that we are in a universe ruled by the Flying Spagetti Monster, is himself an observer in a universe ruled by the Flying Spagetti Monster.  In other words, denying we are in a universe ruled by the Flying Spagetti Monster is self-defeating.
Not Logical.

The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.
The second is your opinion.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 17, 2012, 10:30:43 PM
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 17, 2012, 10:31:30 PM
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?

It is not a verifiable fact that our universe is "finely tuned".
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 17, 2012, 10:34:01 PM
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?

 :lol  You didn't seriously think that is what we were disagreeing with, did you?   :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 17, 2012, 10:37:43 PM
Eh, he's not making much sense at all. What the hell is "pure actuality," "pure being"? What is the "purest form" of reality, especially when reality doesn't yet exist? It's meaningless nonsense.

I was using Platonic, Aristotelian and (terms from) Aquinas (Aquinic?) terms and philosophical concepts. I thought you would be able to recognize them. Sorry?


Quote
The video I pointed to already showed how faulty this logic is. If there are more than one possibilities, i.e. more than one universe, than even though it might be highly improbable for life-permitting features to be around, then it's simply a matter of having a large enough sample size. I mean, it's highly improbable that I myself exist, not just my parents meeting each other, or them being born, but for the exact sperm which fertilized the egg and led to me.

Again, there is no evidence that other universes exist other than our own. But I don't see how the assertion of a genuinely infinite number universes helps at all, considering that the variables within those possible universes would also be infinite. In that case, they have an infinite chance that no repetition of the ideal conditions for life will ever take place. It seems to me that to be able to explain, perhaps, the intricate fine-tuning or universe what would be needed is a limited number of variations of the constants, plus a very large number of repetitions of the variables, rather like rolling a six-sided die many times increases the chance that a four will be rolled at some point.  On the other hand, if the die itself had infinite sides, then having an infinite number of rolls, it seems to me, would not increase the chance of rolling any fours; in fact, there would be an infinite number of chances it would never happen. If the actual number of possibilities is itself infinite, then how does having an infinite number of instances help to increase the chances of "hitting the right numbers" to produce an ordered, life-sustaining universe?  Am I missing something, or are multiverse-believers taking for granted a limited number of cosmological constants?  In that case, doesn't the question "what causes the particular range of limited cosmological constants?" come up?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 17, 2012, 10:41:14 PM
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?

It is not a verifiable fact that our universe is "finely tuned".

Of course it is. Not only have I dedicated an entire large post to support that assertion, but if our universe wasn't fine-tuned, then the universe would not have been life-permitting and therefore no life would have been able to have formed. Peeps, it's not like this is analytic modular logic here; this is simple elementary reasoning.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 17, 2012, 10:52:29 PM
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?

It is not a verifiable fact that our universe is "finely tuned".

Of course it is. Not only have I dedicated an entire large post to support that assertion, but if our universe wasn't fine-tuned, then the universe would not have been life-permitting and therefore no life would have been able to have formed. Peeps, it's not like this is analytic modular logic here; this is simple elementary reasoning.

Opinion.  An opinion that you can certainly defend, and many will agree with, but opinion nonetheless.
Listen to Bosk and learn to differentiate the two.  If you think something makes sense and believe it, does not necessarily make it a fact.
If you need to continue asserting your postition or premise as fact, you should stop writing posts the length of War and Peace showing your reasoning, and simply post a source that verifies it as fact.  Not someone elses opinion, but as verifiable fact.

Anyway, Im out.  It is a verifiable fact that I am tired and need to go to sleep.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 17, 2012, 10:58:39 PM
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?

It is not a verifiable fact that our universe is "finely tuned".

Of course it is. Not only have I dedicated an entire large post to support that assertion, but if our universe wasn't fine-tuned, then the universe would not have been life-permitting and therefore no life would have been able to have formed. Peeps, it's not like this is analytic modular logic here; this is simple elementary reasoning.

Have you ever written a college level paper? You have to source your ideas, you can't just reason it using your own reasoning, you're not quite up to that level yet. You coming up with your own arguments isn't proof, it's you arguing an opinion.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: XJDenton on May 17, 2012, 11:31:24 PM
Of course it is. Not only have I dedicated an entire large post to support that assertion, but if our universe wasn't fine-tuned, then the universe would not have been life-permitting and therefore no life would have been able to have formed. Peeps, it's not like this is analytic modular logic here; this is simple elementary reasoning.

There's plenty of studies that suggest that the parameter space for a life supporting universe is comparatively quite large, and even if it wasn't, the above argument presupposes alot about the nature of life. For example there could be a huge amount of universal parameters that support non-carbon based life or other alternative biochemistries, and, at a more fundamental level, that the same kind of forces exist. The finely tuned universe argument in my opinion really stems from humanity's human centric viewpoint, and a lack of imagination/knowledge of alternative law sets.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 17, 2012, 11:42:03 PM
I agree. People used to say "place X is hostile to life!", and every time they actually looked they still found life. Take for example thermophilic bacteria.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 17, 2012, 11:48:10 PM
That argument only works (called the anthropic principle, I think) if there are multiple universes. Given a single universe, Sheavo, your argument doesn't show that the FT of the universe was not improbable.

And the argument that we are the universe is "fined tuned" for life only works if there is a God. If you had an alternative that wasn't' based upon something we cant' prove, I'd love for you to show it to me. But seeing as how we cant know anything regarding this matter, there really isn't any basis whatsoever to say that one theory that requires multiverses is any less valid than a theory that requires God.

All I have tried to do is show how it is possible, not how it is, that our universe could be "finely-tuned" for life, without there needing to be a God, or a will which made this universe finely-tuned. The arguments being made are that because we find ourselves in a universe that is life-permitting, that this is for a reason - when it's basically a statement of fact that the only reason we can say this is because we find ourselves in a universe that is life-permitting.


Quote
A similar sort of response can be given to the claim that the fine-tuning is not improbable because it might be logically necessary for the parameters of physics to have life-permitting values. That is, according to this claim, the parameters of physics must have life-permitting values in the same way 2 + 2 must equal 4, or the interior angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees in Euclidian geometry. Like the "more fundamental law" proposal above, however, this postulate simply transfers the improbability up one level: of all the laws and parameters of physics that conceivably could have been logically necessary, it seems highly improbable that it would be those that are life-permitting.(3)

The video I pointed to already showed how faulty this logic is. If there are more than one possibilities, i.e. more than one universe, than even though it might be highly improbable for life-permitting features to be around, then it's simply a matter of having a large enough sample size. I mean, it's highly improbable that I myself exist, not just my parents meeting each other, or them being born, but for the exact sperm which fertilized the egg and led to me.

Simply put, if we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting, that doesn't mean much beyond the fact that we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting. If it wasn't life-permitting, we wouldn't be here, etc.

But that is essentially, circular reasoning.   It's that, "Why are we here? Because we're here."...and it doesn't really hold any water.

It's not circular at all. It's simply saying that since we are in a universe that is life-permitting, we evolved and so we can ask these questions. Just like the solar system; looking around teh solar system, we know that it's very possible for a solar system to exist that does not permit life (as we know it). If we try and ask why it is that  our solar system is set up so that we could evolve, we start asking a question we can't really ask. If you watch the video I linked to earlier, the astrophysicists references the historical problem of trying to determine why it is that the Earth is as far away from the Sun as it is, as if there were an actual physical necessity for this to be so. But the truth is, there is no necessity that Earth exists where it does, it was simply what resulted, and not for any predetermined reason.

I'll be honest, I don't think I'm doing a very good job of explaining this. The main point is simply that, with repetition, the "right" conditions for life can occur, and not for any special reason, or "fine-tuning." 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on May 17, 2012, 11:57:51 PM
Let me put
This reeks terribly of Dawkins' "central argument" in The God Delusion. It is not logically consistent to take a logic which may or may not be true of evolution and then apply it to the universe. Besides, we have an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the self-evident fine-tuning of the universe in merely cosmological and probabilistic terms. By "fine-tuning," all one means is that small deviations from the constants and quantities in question would render the universe life-prohibiting, or, alternatively, that the range of life-permitting vales is incomprehensibly narrow in comparison to the range of assumable values. We can cite a good number of examples of cosmic fine-tuning. The world is conditioned principally by the values of the fundamental constants such as the fine structure constant, or electromagnetic interaction, or gravitation, or the weak force or the strong force, or the ratio between the mass of a proton and the mass of an electron, etc. When one assigns different values to these constants or forces, on discovers that the proportion of observable universes capable of supporting life is shockingly small. For example, according to the renowned physicist Paul Davies (whose lovely house in Phoenix I've had the pleasure of staying at a couple of times; no, I'm not kidding), changes in either the gravitational constant or the weak force constant of only one part in 10100 would have prevented a life-permitting universe. Observations indicate that at 10-43 second after the Big Bang, the universe was expanding at a fantastically special rate of speed with a total density close to the critical values on the bortderline between recollapse and everlasting expansion. Hawking estimates that a decrease in the expansion rate of even one part in a hundred thousand million million (1000000000000000000000000) one second after the Big Bang would have resulted in the universe's recollapse long ago; a similar increase would have precluded galaxies' condensing out of the expanding matter. Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little as 5%, life would be impossible (Leslie, 1989, pp. 4, 35; Barrow and Tipler, p. 322). Calculations by Brandon Carter show that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 1040, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible (Davies, 1984, p. 242). If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons or all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would not be possible (Leslie, 1989, pp. 39-40 ). If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible, for a variety of different reasons (Leslie, 1988, p. 299).


There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

Omega, you're running in circles and ignoring what people are actually telling you. Since there is no objective value to life, saying that the universe was fine tuned for life is arbitrary. You may as well say that the universe is fine tuned for planets, or stars, or galaxies, or hell, anything else it contains. Here's what you're basically doing: let's say you have a deck of cards and you hand them to someone in a particular order. You then calculate the probability that they were handed to them in that order, and find it to be some absurdly improbable number. Do you say "aha, there was a grand design to the way these cards were handed out?" No, you just say the cards fell a certain way. And all of your statistics are rendered invalid by the fact that you promote God as a means to explain them. You seek to rectify complexity with what is inherently the most complex being that could ever exist."Who fine tuned God?" is what I'm getting at. Of course, you'll resort to the typical theist cop outs of God existing outside of time and space and so forth, which are unfalsifiable and tautological. Another one of your flawed arguments is that evolutionary logic can't be applied to the cosmos. It can in the sense that, as I already mentioned, order is emergent. Things that are unstable will, by definition, go away, while the stable things will remain and coalesce into things that are more complicated. I'm not going to give you history of cosmology and evolution, but it speaks volumes as to the skill level of your creator that he would rely on such a convoluted process to generate life, where in one distant corner of the universe, it faces constant threats of annihiliation, 99.9% of its species having already gone extinct.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 12:00:17 AM
Eh, he's not making much sense at all. What the hell is "pure actuality," "pure being"? What is the "purest form" of reality, especially when reality doesn't yet exist? It's meaningless nonsense.

I was using Platonic, Aristotelian and (terms from) Aquinas (Aquinic?) terms and philosophical concepts. I thought you would be able to recognize them. Sorry?

If I ever came across them, then I labeled them as nonsense. There's so many problems with those terms, that I'm not sure where to really begin. The biggest problem I have, is that these terms try to smuggle in a hidden morality, that there is some how "unpure" reality, or "unpure" actuality, terms which don't really make sense either. All of this just begs the question, of how you can know this morality, how you know that "pure actuality" exists, that it is something, that it could exist, etc.

Perhaps you've given a valid hypothesis regarding God, but it is hardly proven, and I'm not sure how you could ever prove it. Basically, it's "armchair" philosophy, and it's the reason why Bacon came up with the scientific method. I can devise all sorts of sound, logical explanation for existence (as evidenced by the great variety of religions and belief systems out there - which I guess would make you disingenuous to deny?); the question is if any of those systems are true.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 12:00:55 AM
Here's what you're basically doing: let's say you have a deck of cards and you hand them to someone in a particular order. You then calculate the probability that they were handed to them in that order, and find it to be some absurdly improbable number. Do you say "aha, there was a grand design to the way these cards were handed out?" No, you just say the cards fell a certain way.

Okay, that's a good way of explaining this.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 12:05:52 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2012, 12:09:48 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

Missing the point. You're assigning special value to the arrangement of the cards (to continue the analogy) when there isn't really one unless you place it there.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 12:10:55 AM
You can choose to disregard the Ace to King arrangement of the cards if you want.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2012, 12:13:03 AM
You can choose to disregard the Ace to King arrangement of the cards if you want.


Well this analogy has clearly hit a wall.


H there is the scientific method of looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion, and then there's what a lot of other people here are doing of designing the evidence to support their already drawn conclusion.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 12:21:39 AM
Look at it statistically:

(https://i.imgur.com/SXRQ5.png)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2012, 12:23:31 AM
Now I remember why I  hate debating people. I'm out of this thread too. Have fun. :)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 12:24:54 AM
I wasn't joking around. That's a good way to look at it, scientifically.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on May 18, 2012, 12:27:30 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

I'm rehashing what Adami said, but I'll flush it out a little more. We would only perceive that as significant because we're familiar with the game of cards and how it works. If you showed those cards to an alien, they'd be meaningless. Likewise, that ID advocate you cited said something like "if I saw rocks spelling out my name in the Grand Canyon, I'd know there was a designer." That would only be meaningful to him because of the societal construct of language.

I'm tired of debating too. I'm gonna stop posting in this forum and just stick to making music for a while. ;D
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 12:27:59 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

Just becuase something is rare and unlikely, does not mean that when that thing occurs, that it was done by design. It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit. What are the chances of me personally winning the lottery? Very, very, very low. But obviously it's possible to win the lottery, as evidence by all the lottery winners through out history.

Basically, either 1 or 2 is possible. You can't conclude that it's 2, simply becuase it's unlikely. Coincidence and happenstance can explain all sorts of odd events, and it is nothing special.

I'm pretty sure there's a specific logical fallacy you're employing, but I can't remember the name of it right now.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 12:30:40 AM
Have you ever written a college level paper?
Finally, someone said it. :lol

Anyway, this post won and I want to make sure it doesn't go ignored.

Omega, you're running in circles and ignoring what people are actually telling you. Since there is no objective value to life, saying that the universe was fine tuned for life is arbitrary. You may as well say that the universe is fine tuned for planets, or stars, or galaxies, or hell, anything else it contains. Here's what you're basically doing: let's say you have a deck of cards and you hand them to someone in a particular order. You then calculate the probability that they were handed to them in that order, and find it to be some absurdly improbable number. Do you say "aha, there was a grand design to the way these cards were handed out?" No, you just say the cards fell a certain way.

We should also not confuse the persistence of evolution for the intervention of a divine force. When people say that "if X were different, there could be no life", they're talking about the conception of life as we understand it. If universes have a tendency to create increasingly complex and self-sustaining systems, who's to say that a universe with marginally different physical laws won't have caused there to be different units of life to circumvent the "inhospitable conditions"?

EDIT: Also,
You may as well say that the universe is fine tuned for planets, or stars, or galaxies, or hell, anything else it contains.
Mila Kunis. The universe is fine tuned for Mila Kunis.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 12:33:23 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?
The probability of the cards' being arranged in that order is the same as the probability of the cards' being in any order whatsoever. I assume you freak out whenever you shuffle cards because you can't believe that they would have ended up in that order?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 18, 2012, 12:33:35 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

Just becuase something is rare and unlikely, does not mean that when that thing occurs, that it was done by design. It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit. What are the chances of me personally winning the lottery? Very, very, very low. But obviously it's possible to win the lottery, as evidence by all the lottery winners through out history.

Basically, either 1 or 2 is possible. You can't conclude that it's 2, simply becuase it's unlikely. Coincidence and happenstance can explain all sorts of odd events, and it is nothing special.

I'm pretty sure there's a specific logical fallacy you're employing, but I can't remember the name of it right now.

If it were as simple as a deck of cards being shuffled and dealt in order...that might be worth an argument.   But that is a *GROSS* oversimplification.   

Did you know that there is a measurable threshold for when something is considered a "mathematical impossibility"...did you know that the probability of everything around us coming about by chance is far beyond that threshold?   I point you back to my detailed sculpture illustration.   Anyone on a archaeological expedition who even *suggested* that the sculpture was simply a fancy looking rock would be laughed off the team....not because it's completely impossible...but because it's such an infinite improbably that no sane or rational person would believe it. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 12:55:02 AM
One more thing before I hit the hay (sorry for so many posts in such a short time frame): if we can assume the validity of any theory which allows for the cyclical creation and destruction of universes (Big Crunch, etc), all these "fine-tuned" arguments become completely irrelevant, because at that point it becomes a certainty that a universe will eventually be created that supports life (as we know it).
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 12:58:37 AM
But those calculations regarding the possibility of seeing what we see around us use a variety of assumptions, assumptions that can be challenged and changed. I'll have to refer back to that video I linked to again, becuase if there are multiverses, this changes the entire math behind seeing what we see around us as being "impossible."

And remember, if. I'm not claiming anything strong, I'm simply pointing out how reality could be such that what we see around us is possible through chance and permutations. This is important, becuase the denial of this being possible is the foundation of some of your belief, as we can see in the fact that we're discussing this right now.

I mean, mathematically speaking, the probability that I would be born is probably impossible. The millions of sperm my dad produced, the thousands of eggs my mother produced, and their mothers, and their mothers, etc. Yet clearly, it is not impossible for me to be born, becuase I am here now.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: XJDenton on May 18, 2012, 01:03:24 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

Just becuase something is rare and unlikely, does not mean that when that thing occurs, that it was done by design. It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit. What are the chances of me personally winning the lottery? Very, very, very low. But obviously it's possible to win the lottery, as evidence by all the lottery winners through out history.

Basically, either 1 or 2 is possible. You can't conclude that it's 2, simply becuase it's unlikely. Coincidence and happenstance can explain all sorts of odd events, and it is nothing special.

I'm pretty sure there's a specific logical fallacy you're employing, but I can't remember the name of it right now.

If it were as simple as a deck of cards being shuffled and dealt in order...that might be worth an argument.   But that is a *GROSS* oversimplification.   

Did you know that there is a measurable threshold for when something is considered a "mathematical impossibility"

I'm sorry, but..... what?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on May 18, 2012, 03:19:56 AM
The point is that we do, obviously, observe that our universe is life permitting and we must arrive at a reason as to why it is life permitting, considering that the chances of it being non-life permitting would have been preposterously and infinitely more probable.

We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are. Saying something like "oh if the charge of an electron were different life could never exist", while possibly true, is meaningless because we have no idea whether it's even possible for there to be a universe in which that constant is different.

The following is relevant:

Quote from: Robin Collins
One criticism of the fine-tuning argument is that, as far as we know, there could be a more fundamental law under which the parameters of physics must have the values they do. Thus, given such a law, it is not improbable that the known parameters of physics fall within the life-permitting range.

Besides being entirely speculative, the problem with postulating such a law is that it simply moves the improbability of the fine-tuning up one level, to that of the postulated physical law itself. Under this hypothesis, what is improbable is that all the conceivable fundamental physical laws there could be, the universe just happens to have the one that constrains the parameters of physics in a life-permitting way. Thus, trying to explain the fine-tuning by postulating this sort of fundamental law is like trying to explain why the pattern of rocks below a cliff spell "Welcome to the mountains Robin Collins" by postulating that an earthquake occurred and that all the rocks on the cliff face were arranged in just the right configuration to fall into the pattern in question. Clearly this explanation merely transfers the improbability up one level, since now it seems enormously improbable that of all the possible configurations the rocks could be in on the cliff face, they are in the one which results in the pattern "Welcome to the mountains Robin Collins."

A similar sort of response can be given to the claim that the fine-tuning is not improbable because it might be logically necessary for the parameters of physics to have life-permitting values. That is, according to this claim, the parameters of physics must have life-permitting values in the same way 2 + 2 must equal 4, or the interior angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees in Euclidian geometry. Like the "more fundamental law" proposal above, however, this postulate simply transfers the improbability up one level: of all the laws and parameters of physics that conceivably could have been logically necessary, it seems highly improbable that it would be those that are life-permitting.(3)

Sorry, but that's not really relevant at all. Ignoring all the arguments about valuing life permitting conditions (whatever the hell that actually means) over not, my point has nothing to do these conditions being set in stone.

My point is that we have absolutely no idea what the mechanism that determines these constants is. To say that a life supporting universe is improbable makes numerous unsubstantiated assumptions.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 08:18:20 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

Just becuase something is rare and unlikely, does not mean that when that thing occurs, that it was done by design. It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit. What are the chances of me personally winning the lottery? Very, very, very low. But obviously it's possible to win the lottery, as evidence by all the lottery winners through out history.

Basically, either 1 or 2 is possible. You can't conclude that it's 2, simply becuase it's unlikely. Coincidence and happenstance can explain all sorts of odd events, and it is nothing special.

I'm pretty sure there's a specific logical fallacy you're employing, but I can't remember the name of it right now.


There is no fallacy unless he is saying that the conclusion he is drawing from the unlikely outcome is the only possible conclusion, which he is not (Omega is, but that's a different story).  He is simply saying (I think) that is is the most likely conclusion, which is perfectly valid.  With the cards analogy, you are right that random chance and coincidence are possible explanations for a deck being arranged ace to king.  But it is unlikely.  Whether anyone fesses up to arranging the cards in order or not, the assumption that somebody did is the most likely explanation.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kári on May 18, 2012, 08:30:04 AM
It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit.
You meant implausible right ??? Pretty sure your have better chances at winning the lottery than at that.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 09:30:18 AM
It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit.
You meant implausible right ??? Pretty sure your have better chances at winning the lottery than at that.

No, I think he is saying it is is clearly possible.  Both random chance, and fine-tuning, are possible.  He is making the point that if both are possible, we have no reason to say one is the only possible answer.

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on May 18, 2012, 10:40:45 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

Just becuase something is rare and unlikely, does not mean that when that thing occurs, that it was done by design. It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit. What are the chances of me personally winning the lottery? Very, very, very low. But obviously it's possible to win the lottery, as evidence by all the lottery winners through out history.

Basically, either 1 or 2 is possible. You can't conclude that it's 2, simply becuase it's unlikely. Coincidence and happenstance can explain all sorts of odd events, and it is nothing special.

I'm pretty sure there's a specific logical fallacy you're employing, but I can't remember the name of it right now.


There is no fallacy unless he is saying that the conclusion he is drawing from the unlikely outcome is the only possible conclusion, which he is not (Omega is, but that's a different story).  He is simply saying (I think) that is is the most likely conclusion, which is perfectly valid.  With the cards analogy, you are right that random chance and coincidence are possible explanations for a deck being arranged ace to king.  But it is unlikely.  Whether anyone fesses up to arranging the cards in order or not, the assumption that somebody did is the most likely explanation.

But that combination is no more likely than any of the other combinations.  One only accords special significance to specific iterations.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 10:49:33 AM
Very good point.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 10:56:04 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

Just becuase something is rare and unlikely, does not mean that when that thing occurs, that it was done by design. It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit. What are the chances of me personally winning the lottery? Very, very, very low. But obviously it's possible to win the lottery, as evidence by all the lottery winners through out history.

Basically, either 1 or 2 is possible. You can't conclude that it's 2, simply becuase it's unlikely. Coincidence and happenstance can explain all sorts of odd events, and it is nothing special.

I'm pretty sure there's a specific logical fallacy you're employing, but I can't remember the name of it right now.


There is no fallacy unless he is saying that the conclusion he is drawing from the unlikely outcome is the only possible conclusion, which he is not (Omega is, but that's a different story).  He is simply saying (I think) that is is the most likely conclusion, which is perfectly valid.  With the cards analogy, you are right that random chance and coincidence are possible explanations for a deck being arranged ace to king.  But it is unlikely.  Whether anyone fesses up to arranging the cards in order or not, the assumption that somebody did is the most likely explanation.

But that combination is no more likely than any of the other combinations.  One only accords special significance to specific iterations.

Yes, but that is largely irrelevant.  The point is that we are talking about the probability of a specific sequencing of 52 cards.  Whatever sequence we choose, the odds are the same.  No matter what the sequence is, if we are trying to predict a specific, unique sequence coming about by random chance, the odds of that happening are astronomically low (if the math I have seen is correct, 1 in 10^68), such that if it does in fact occur, the most likely explanation is that the process was guided. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kári on May 18, 2012, 10:58:23 AM
It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit.
You meant implausible right ??? Pretty sure your have better chances at winning the lottery than at that.

No, I think he is saying it is is clearly possible.  Both random chance, and fine-tuning, are possible.  He is making the point that if both are possible, we have no reason to say one is the only possible answer.

Of course it is possible. But it is not at all plausible that when you shuffle a deck of cards, that they will be arranged from ace to king by suit. That has probably never even happened in the history of cards, ever.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 10:59:52 AM
The most likely explanation is not that it was guided if you have 6 septillion attempts.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kári on May 18, 2012, 11:02:41 AM
Yes, but that is largely irrelevant.  The point is that we are talking about the probability of a specific sequencing of 52 cards.  Whatever sequence we choose, the odds are the same.  No matter what the sequence is, if we are trying to predict a specific, unique sequence coming about by random chance, the odds of that happening are astronomically low (if the math I have seen is correct, 1 in 10^68), such that if it does in fact occur, the most likely explanation is that the process was guided. 
I don't see at all how or even why you make the leap to "the process was guided"... Granted, if someone came to me on the street and asked me to write down a sequence of the 52 cards, then shuffled a deck and showed them in that sequence I would of course assume it was some kind of trick. But I don't see what that had to do with the existence of life.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: the Catfishman on May 18, 2012, 11:05:58 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

Just becuase something is rare and unlikely, does not mean that when that thing occurs, that it was done by design. It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit. What are the chances of me personally winning the lottery? Very, very, very low. But obviously it's possible to win the lottery, as evidence by all the lottery winners through out history.

Basically, either 1 or 2 is possible. You can't conclude that it's 2, simply becuase it's unlikely. Coincidence and happenstance can explain all sorts of odd events, and it is nothing special.

I'm pretty sure there's a specific logical fallacy you're employing, but I can't remember the name of it right now.


There is no fallacy unless he is saying that the conclusion he is drawing from the unlikely outcome is the only possible conclusion, which he is not (Omega is, but that's a different story).  He is simply saying (I think) that is is the most likely conclusion, which is perfectly valid.  With the cards analogy, you are right that random chance and coincidence are possible explanations for a deck being arranged ace to king.  But it is unlikely.  Whether anyone fesses up to arranging the cards in order or not, the assumption that somebody did is the most likely explanation.

But that combination is no more likely than any of the other combinations.  One only accords special significance to specific iterations.

Yes, but that is largely irrelevant.  The point is that we are talking about the probability of a specific sequencing of 52 cards.  Whatever sequence we choose, the odds are the same.  No matter what the sequence is, if we are trying to predict a specific, unique sequence coming about by random chance, the odds of that happening are astronomically low (if the math I have seen is correct, 1 in 10^68), such that if it does in fact occur, the most likely explanation is that the process was guided.

Would we know (would we exist) if the sequence was different?

(or in other words, the fact that we exist prove that the right sequence occurred).
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 11:08:11 AM
Another point.  Are there 52 different requirements, that have to happen in a specific order, to have the possibility of life occur?
I believe that there were some attempts to construct an equation to guess at that probability.  I think it is far more probable for the conditions to allow for life (as we understand it) than it is to randomly shuffle to get a specific order of 52 cards.
If you have enough cracks at it, the probabilities start to get better. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 11:09:27 AM
Similar analogy. Suppose you are handed a deck of cards and the cards are arranged from Ace to King, by suit. Would you conclude:

1) They randomly fell into that order, or
2) Someone put them in that order?

Just becuase something is rare and unlikely, does not mean that when that thing occurs, that it was done by design. It is very plausible for me to shuffle a deck of cards, and for that deck of cards to be arranged from Ace to King, by suit. What are the chances of me personally winning the lottery? Very, very, very low. But obviously it's possible to win the lottery, as evidence by all the lottery winners through out history.

Basically, either 1 or 2 is possible. You can't conclude that it's 2, simply becuase it's unlikely. Coincidence and happenstance can explain all sorts of odd events, and it is nothing special.

I'm pretty sure there's a specific logical fallacy you're employing, but I can't remember the name of it right now.


There is no fallacy unless he is saying that the conclusion he is drawing from the unlikely outcome is the only possible conclusion, which he is not (Omega is, but that's a different story).  He is simply saying (I think) that is is the most likely conclusion, which is perfectly valid.  With the cards analogy, you are right that random chance and coincidence are possible explanations for a deck being arranged ace to king.  But it is unlikely.  Whether anyone fesses up to arranging the cards in order or not, the assumption that somebody did is the most likely explanation.

But that combination is no more likely than any of the other combinations.  One only accords special significance to specific iterations.

Yes, but that is largely irrelevant.  The point is that we are talking about the probability of a specific sequencing of 52 cards.  Whatever sequence we choose, the odds are the same.  No matter what the sequence is, if we are trying to predict a specific, unique sequence coming about by random chance, the odds of that happening are astronomically low (if the math I have seen is correct, 1 in 10^68), such that if it does in fact occur, the most likely explanation is that the process was guided.

Would we know (would we exist) if the sequence was different?

(or in other words, the fact that we exist prove that the right sequence occurred).

Dont we actually see different sequences occurring that allow for life happening on our very own planet?
I think it shows that conditions need not be exactly as they occured on Earth, or in the same sequence.
That increases probability, yes?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: the Catfishman on May 18, 2012, 11:54:36 AM
yes
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 11:58:40 AM
Let's say you have an infinite amount of time to shuffle cards. Each time you shuffle the cards, you hand them to somebody. If that is the case, then it is an effective certainty that you will eventually hand somebody a deck organized ace-to-king, ordered by suit. The fallacy would be for that person to assume that the cards were organized that way specifically for him, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 12:00:15 PM
Signs point to yes
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 12:06:37 PM
Let's say you have an infinite amount of time to shuffle cards. Each time you shuffle the cards, you hand them to somebody. If that is the case, then it is an effective certainty that you will eventually hand somebody a deck organized ace-to-king, ordered by suit. The fallacy would be for that person to assume that the cards were organized that way specifically for him, wouldn't it?

No.  The probability does not change no matter how many times the deck is shuffled.  It is not different than flipping coins in that regard.  The odds of heads is 1 in 2 no matter how many times you flip the coin.  The fact that 3 flips in a row came up tails does not make it more or less likely than 1 in 2 that the next flip will be heads.

The other above posts that suggest factors that might alter the statistical probabilities are in varying degrees valid.  But let's not shift the scope from the fact that what H presented was merely an analogy, and like any analogy, it has its limitations.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 12:10:24 PM
My sources say no.  The relative frequency of occurrence of an event, observed in a number of repetitions of the experiment, is a measure of the probability of that event.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 12:13:51 PM
@bosk: I'm not saying it becomes more probable for the deck to be organized in that particular way if you try more times (which is, of course, incorrect); I'm saying that, given an infinite number of attempts, it is an effective certainty that at one point the deck will be organized that way.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on May 18, 2012, 12:14:28 PM
Let's say you have an infinite amount of time to shuffle cards. Each time you shuffle the cards, you hand them to somebody. If that is the case, then it is an effective certainty that you will eventually hand somebody a deck organized ace-to-king, ordered by suit. The fallacy would be for that person to assume that the cards were organized that way specifically for him, wouldn't it?

No.  The probability does not change no matter how many times the deck is shuffled.  It is not different than flipping coins in that regard.  The odds of heads is 1 in 2 no matter how many times you flip the coin.  The fact that 3 flips in a row came up tails does not make it more or less likely than 1 in 2 that the next flip will be heads.

The other above posts that suggest factors that might alter the statistical probabilities are in varying degrees valid.  But let's not shift the scope from the fact that what H presented was merely an analogy, and like any analogy, it has its limitations.

The odds of getting a royal flush from 5 randomly drawn cards are 1 in 649,350.

The odds of getting a royal flush from 5 randomly drawn cards, if you do it 500,000 times, are a much better 53.7%.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 12:16:48 PM
Let's say you have an infinite amount of time to shuffle cards. Each time you shuffle the cards, you hand them to somebody. If that is the case, then it is an effective certainty that you will eventually hand somebody a deck organized ace-to-king, ordered by suit. The fallacy would be for that person to assume that the cards were organized that way specifically for him, wouldn't it?

No.  The probability does not change no matter how many times the deck is shuffled.  It is not different than flipping coins in that regard.  The odds of heads is 1 in 2 no matter how many times you flip the coin.  The fact that 3 flips in a row came up tails does not make it more or less likely than 1 in 2 that the next flip will be heads.

The other above posts that suggest factors that might alter the statistical probabilities are in varying degrees valid.  But let's not shift the scope from the fact that what H presented was merely an analogy, and like any analogy, it has its limitations.

The odds of getting a royal flush from 5 randomly drawn cards are 1 in 649,350.

The odds of getting a royal flush from 5 randomly drawn cards, if you do it 500,000 times, are a much better 53.7%.

It is decidedly so.
The amount of times you do the experiment absolutely affects the probability.  This is a fact of statistical probabilities.

EDIT:  Perhaps this misunderstanding of statistical probabilites is where some who insist on "fine-tuning" are coming from.  The statistical probability that the conditions occur to allow for life, when taken on an individual basis, is astronomical.  When we know that chance will occur everwhere there is a star in our universe, the probability increases big time.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 12:16:52 PM
There is no fallacy unless he is saying that the conclusion he is drawing from the unlikely outcome is the only possible conclusion, which he is not (Omega is, but that's a different story).  He is simply saying (I think) that is is the most likely conclusion, which is perfectly valid.  With the cards analogy, you are right that random chance and coincidence are possible explanations for a deck being arranged ace to king.  But it is unlikely.  Whether anyone fesses up to arranging the cards in order or not, the assumption that somebody did is the most likely explanation.

I've committed no fallacy (if you were to insist that I did, at least name the fallacy, please, rather than just throw the word around "fallacy" like a hot potato).

The problem here is that the fact that our universe is finely-tuned to allow for the formation of life is a readily self-evident truth. In other words, when you deny that our universe is fine-tuned, you are acting irrationally just as you would be acting irrationally if you were to deny that the Earth is round or that the Earth is supportive of life. When one says that the universe is fine-tuned to allow for the formation of life just means that the universe is supportive of the formation of life; that the universe allows for life to form. For obvious reasons, you would be irrational to deny that. At face value, the term "fine-tuning" bears no allusion either implicitly or explicitly to any sort of God. When one uses the term "fine-tuning," all one means is that small deviations from the constants and quantities in question would render the universe life-prohibiting, or, alternatively, that the range of life-permitting vales is incomprehensibly narrow in comparison to the range of assumable values. This is a completely uncontroversial observation of the universe.

The question isn't if our universe is fine tuned to allow for the formation of life. That is already painfully obvious. The real question is why is our universe finely-tuned to allow for the formation of life? Is the fine tuning do to:

A.) chance?
B.) necessity?
C.) design?

One can then, through inductive and deductive reasoning, eliminate both the possibility of the fine-tuning of our universe being attributed to either chance or necessity (which I haven't done yet, so make sure to read this before you type something along the lines of "wow lol Omega you like havent even succeeded in doing that lol FAIL").
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 12:22:31 PM
 :facepalm:
Omega, you just dont get it.  It is clear that your position is 100% set in stone in your mind, and you have a statistical probability of 0% of listening, and being open to, other peoples opposing opinions.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 12:22:38 PM
Oh, and, as for the card example, you guys are sidestepping a serious issue: the problem with that analogy is that there wouldn't be "just" 52 possible possibilities that could be randomly selected and result in a royal flush, etc; there would be an infinite amount of possibilities in a given set that would have to be randomly pulled to result in an analogous "royal flush," if you will.

If that didn't make much sense, the following scenario would be more appropriate:

Picking from of an infinite amount of numbers in a set, you end up with the same number (say, 77) every time you pull a number from the infinite set. To try to attribute that to chance would be a joke at best and downright suspicious at worst.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 12:24:54 PM
Oh, and, as for the card example, you guys are sidestepping a serious issue: the problem with that analogy is that there wouldn't be "just" 52 possible possibilities that could be randomly selected and result in a royal flush, etc; there would be an infinite amount of possibilities in a given set that would have to be randomly pulled to result in an analogous "royal flush," if you will.

If that didn't make much sense, the following scenario would be more appropriate:

Picking from of an infinite amount of numbers in a set, you end up with the same number (say, 77) every time you pull a number from the infinite set. To try to attribute that to chance would be a joke at best and downright suspicious at worst.

My sources say no.
The amount of possible combinations in a deck of cards is not infinite.

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 12:26:04 PM
He's saying that a more apt example would be drawing numbers from an infinite set, which I actually agree with.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 18, 2012, 12:28:26 PM
:facepalm:
INSERT P/R DTF'R NAME you just dont get it.  It is clear that your position is 100% set in stone in your mind, and you have a statistical probability of 0% of listening, and being open to, other peoples opposing opinions.

Omega is by far not the only participant in the P/R threads that displays this trait.......Myself, I'm probably on a 98% to 2% ratio...as long as that 2% agrees with me.  ;)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 12:38:35 PM
Let's say you have an infinite amount of time to shuffle cards. Each time you shuffle the cards, you hand them to somebody. If that is the case, then it is an effective certainty that you will eventually hand somebody a deck organized ace-to-king, ordered by suit. The fallacy would be for that person to assume that the cards were organized that way specifically for him, wouldn't it?

No.  The probability does not change no matter how many times the deck is shuffled.  It is not different than flipping coins in that regard.  The odds of heads is 1 in 2 no matter how many times you flip the coin.  The fact that 3 flips in a row came up tails does not make it more or less likely than 1 in 2 that the next flip will be heads.

The other above posts that suggest factors that might alter the statistical probabilities are in varying degrees valid.  But let's not shift the scope from the fact that what H presented was merely an analogy, and like any analogy, it has its limitations.

The odds of getting a royal flush from 5 randomly drawn cards are 1 in 649,350.

The odds of getting a royal flush from 5 randomly drawn cards, if you do it 500,000 times, are a much better 53.7%.

Incorrect.  Unless you change the hypothetical such that the outcomes of individual hands are no longer independent events (such as creating a discard pile, for example), the odds do not change from one hand to the next, no matter how many times you deal.  That's basic probability and statistics.  To argue otherwise is mathetmatically incorrect.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 12:42:12 PM
bosk, you're misunderstanding the concept at hand.

On a smaller scale:
The probability of getting heads on a coin flip is 50%.
The probability of getting heads sometime over the course of two coin flips is 75% (even though the probabilities of the two coin flips themselves were 50%).

This is the phenomenon we're talking about.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 12:42:27 PM
He's saying that a more apt example would be drawing numbers from an infinite set, which I actually agree with.

But in his example, the desired set to be drawn is finite as one.  The set and order of "things" needed to allow for life are not a finite one.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 12:45:06 PM
bosk, you're misunderstanding the concept at hand.

On a smaller scale:
The probability of getting heads on a coin flip is 50%.
The probability of getting heads sometime over the course of two coin flips is 75% (even though the probabilities of the two coin flips themselves were 50%).

This is the phenomenon we're talking about.

Bosk, this ^ is basic statistical probability.  I think you are referring to Classical interpretation, but we are talking about the Frequentist view....which is the accepted view of statistical probability.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_probability
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 12:48:27 PM
:facepalm:
INSERT P/R DTF'R NAME you just dont get it.  It is clear that your position is 100% set in stone in your mind, and you have a statistical probability of 0% of listening, and being open to, other peoples opposing opinions.

Omega is by far not the only participant in the P/R threads that displays this trait.......Myself, I'm probably on a 98% to 2% ratio...as long as that 2% agrees with me.  ;)

Most do not continue with the exact same responses, in the very same threads, even when confronted with the behavoir by several members....repeatedly.  When the overwhelming majority here present something as FACT, we can back it up.  I dont say that Bosk is wrong on his statistical probability view because of my own reasoning, or that it is self-evident.  I show him proof.  If I dont have proof, and it is merely an educated opinion, I dont say it is a fact.  I dont see others doing that here.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: j on May 18, 2012, 12:56:26 PM
Let's say you have an infinite amount of time to shuffle cards. Each time you shuffle the cards, you hand them to somebody. If that is the case, then it is an effective certainty that you will eventually hand somebody a deck organized ace-to-king, ordered by suit. The fallacy would be for that person to assume that the cards were organized that way specifically for him, wouldn't it?

No.  The probability does not change no matter how many times the deck is shuffled.  It is not different than flipping coins in that regard.  The odds of heads is 1 in 2 no matter how many times you flip the coin.  The fact that 3 flips in a row came up tails does not make it more or less likely than 1 in 2 that the next flip will be heads.

The other above posts that suggest factors that might alter the statistical probabilities are in varying degrees valid.  But let's not shift the scope from the fact that what H presented was merely an analogy, and like any analogy, it has its limitations.

The odds of getting a royal flush from 5 randomly drawn cards are 1 in 649,350.

The odds of getting a royal flush from 5 randomly drawn cards, if you do it 500,000 times, are a much better 53.7%.

Incorrect.  Unless you change the hypothetical such that the outcomes of individual hands are no longer independent events (such as creating a discard pile, for example), the odds do not change from one hand to the next, no matter how many times you deal.  That's basic probability and statistics.  To argue otherwise is mathetmatically incorrect.

No, GP is correct.  The odds of one trial do not change, but the number of trials does.

-J
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 18, 2012, 12:59:50 PM
:facepalm:
INSERT P/R DTF'R NAME you just dont get it.  It is clear that your position is 100% set in stone in your mind, and you have a statistical probability of 0% of listening, and being open to, other peoples opposing opinions.

Omega is by far not the only participant in the P/R threads that displays this trait.......Myself, I'm probably on a 98% to 2% ratio...as long as that 2% agrees with me.  ;)

Most do not continue with the exact same responses, in the very same threads, even when confronted with the behavoir by several members....repeatedly.  When the overwhelming majority here present something as FACT, we can back it up.  I dont say that Bosk is wrong on his statistical probability view because of my own reasoning, or that it is self-evident.  I show him proof.
I get it. I guess I was trying to say that it is hard to move anyone off their position in the P/R forum....or anywhere for that matter. I'll use myself as an example. I believe in God and Christ....I don't let that stand in the way of certain scientific 'facts' but at the same time no amount of 'scientific' speculation or evidence can or will sway my faith. Just as I assume that the agnostic or athiest forumers aren't going to let any amount of scripture or personal testimony sway their beliefs.
  I'd say that there is pretty good banter and discussion all in all in these P/R threads between the 'two' sides....but I'll admit that there are times and certain individuals that seem to intentionally go out of their way to try and make us spiritually minded forumers feel inferior or 'stuiped' for our beliefs......there's a chance the dialouge is misunderstood due to the impersonal nature of typed text and the inability to gauge ones true intent and the way they're presenting their statment...but it sure doesn't feel like it at the time.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 01:06:01 PM
No, GP is correct.  The odds of one trial do not change, but the number of trials does.

Well, not sure what I can say if that's what you guys think is correct.  But I did some quick google research to make sure they didn't change how math is done since back in the day when I took probability and statistics, and that research confirmed that I am mathematically correct.  So, okay, I guess that's about as far as we can go in this discussion.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 01:07:22 PM
I dont think many people will move off their position in this forum either, but that is not what I think most here expect.  What we/I have a problem with is that we/I will listen, evaluate, debate a persons opinion....and though we/I may not agree with it, in most cases will concede that their position is a valid and/or possible opinion...but is that reciprocated?   Some here do not seem to have that capability.  It appears that some, when their opinion is formed, cant seem to understand how it is not accepted as fact by everyone.  And another thing, a persons reasoning should be enough, on its own, to present something as fact, or "self-evident.  In P/R, you should support your position with something other than your own position.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 01:09:21 PM
Bosk, I guarantee you that we are 100% correct about this. Look back at my post if you're still confused.

bosk, you're misunderstanding the concept at hand.

On a smaller scale:
The probability of getting heads on a coin flip is 50%.
The probability of getting heads sometime over the course of two coin flips is 75% (even though the probabilities of the two coin flips themselves were 50%).

This is the phenomenon we're talking about.

In other words, for n trials, the greater the probability will be of getting heads at some point over the course of n flips, but the probability of getting heads during one specific trial will always be 50%. As n approaches infinity, the probability of getting heads sometime will eventually become effectively 1. This is a statistical fact.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 01:12:42 PM
No, GP is correct.  The odds of one trial do not change, but the number of trials does.

Well, not sure what I can say if that's what you guys think is correct.  But I did some quick google research to make sure they didn't change how math is done since back in the day when I took probability and statistics, and that research confirmed that I am mathematically correct.  So, okay, I guess that's about as far as we can go in this discussion.

No, Bosk, you are factually incorrect.  There is no wiggle room on this one.  It is proven math.  You need to stop looking at each attempt individually in the larger set of attempt.  The probability, when you know the amount of times the attempt occurs, goes UP....when you look at the entire amount of attempts.  You are correct that each attempt will follow its individual probability....but when you know you will be doing it multiple times, the result will be different.
My Brother had the same arguement with me once.  Individual attempt yes the probability will be the same.....but the probability of the set of larger attempt is changed by the amount of attempts.


EDIT:  I will try to put this in laymans terms like the example above.  You think the chances of flipping a coin once are 50/50 to get heads once, right?  That is correct.
Now, I tell you that you get to flip that coin 1 million times.  Do you think that the chances you will get heads once is 50/50?
No it is essentially a statistical guarantee you will see heads once.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: GuineaPig on May 18, 2012, 01:13:05 PM
No, GP is correct.  The odds of one trial do not change, but the number of trials does.

Well, not sure what I can say if that's what you guys think is correct.  But I did some quick google research to make sure they didn't change how math is done since back in the day when I took probability and statistics, and that research confirmed that I am mathematically correct.  So, okay, I guess that's about as far as we can go in this discussion.

OK, quick explanation.  The odds of it happening in one instance are 1 in 649,350.  Alternatively, the odds of it not happening are 649,349 out of 649,350.

So, the odds of it not happening ever over 500,000 attempts (assuming same conditions each time) is (649,349/649,350)^500,000 = 0.463.

Therefore, the odds of it happening in those 500,000 attempts is roughly 53.7%.

It's the same principle behind the seemingly counter-intuitive birthday problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem): that with 23 people in a room (assuming equal spread of births), the odds are about 50% two share the same birthday, despite individually the odds only being 1/365.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 18, 2012, 01:15:53 PM
And another thing, a persons reasoning should be enough, on its own, to present something as fact, or "self-evident.  In P/R, you should support your position with something other than your own position.
I think that's where the frustration may lie (with me at least) is that it's essentially impossible to supply evidence in support of my beliefs due to the fact that a LARGE portion of my beliefs are based in Faith....I can't give you a sample of 'faith' or a picture of it. And the examples I could provide (present day miraculous healing, personal testimony, etc) are dismissed rather quickly in these threads.  On the other hand, there is an overabundance of scientific study out there on any range of things that one can source to support a point. Whether it's true or accurate is a whole other issue, the fact remains its tangible. There lies the seperation between the two 'sides' and ways of thinking I'd guess.....I can get by on faith and belief as you I assume like to have the proof ready and available for study.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kári on May 18, 2012, 01:16:05 PM
No, GP is correct.  The odds of one trial do not change, but the number of trials does.

Well, not sure what I can say if that's what you guys think is correct.  But I did some quick google research to make sure they didn't change how math is done since back in the day when I took probability and statistics, and that research confirmed that I am mathematically correct.  So, okay, I guess that's about as far as we can go in this discussion.
Bosk (and others) I think you are confused. The probability of heads in a coin toss is 50%. This is true, and you are correct in saying that it does not change however many times you do the experiment. So when we do one coin toss, the probability of getting heads once is 50%. However, if we do 10 coin tosses, the probability of getting heads at least once is higher than 50%.
You can calculate it like this: the probability of never getting heads in 10 coin tosses is equal to 100% - P(always getting tails) .. right?
(P is for probability)
P(always getting tails) = 50% * 50% * ... 50% (10 times) = (50%)^10 = about 1%. So the chance of getting heads, at least once, in 10 coin tosses is 100% - 1% = 99%. HOWEVER the probability of getting heads the 11th time after the 10 coin tosses is still 50%. As said, that does not change.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 01:18:07 PM
And another thing, a persons reasoning should be enough, on its own, to present something as fact, or "self-evident.  In P/R, you should support your position with something other than your own position.
I think that's where the frustration may lie (with me at least) is that it's essentially impossible to supply evidence in support of my beliefs due to the fact that a LARGE portion of my beliefs are based in Faith....I can't give you a sample of 'faith' or a picture of it. And the examples I could provide (present day miraculous healing, personal testimony, etc) are dismissed rather quickly in these threads.  On the other hand, there is an overabundance of scientific study out there on any range of things that one can source to support a point. Whether it's true or accurate is a whole other issue, the fact remains its tangible. There lies the seperation between the two 'sides' and ways of thinking I'd guess.....I can get by on faith and belief as you I assume like to have the proof ready and available for study.

Actually, Im not even talking about faith.  Im talking about things like the one and only correct definition of marriage.
It was stated as fact, even when presented with clear and obvious evidence to the contrary.  It was an opinion, but the ensuing mess of insisting it being fact almost brought a ban-hammer.

EDIT:  Lets just table this for another discussion.  Sorry about the hijack.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 01:18:57 PM
I will try to put this in laymans terms like the example above.  You think the chances of flipping a coin once are 50/50 to get heads once, right?  That is correct.
Now, I tell you that you get to flip that coin 1 million times.  Do you think that the chances you will get heads once, in a million tries, is 50/50?
No it is essentially a statistical guarantee you will see heads at least once.  Increase attempts, increase probability.


EDIT:  This is also some of the reasoning used in peoples opinion that there must be more life out there in the universe.
The sheer number of coin flips (# of suns/planets in universe) increases the probability, even for a result that may have different factors, and is very complicated to produce. 
The disagreement that may be occuring is when the probability of all the factors aligning for the possibility of life occuring is so low on a one-off attempt....(but it happened here!)...but you are only focusing on one attempt, and that will lead to the fine tuning opinion (not saying it is wrong), as your probability on one attempt for something so rare is astronomical.  But by adding the Septillions of attempts in the universe, as explained above, the probability increases to much more.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 18, 2012, 02:01:36 PM
 
The disagreement that may be occuring is when the probability of all the factors aligning for the possibility of life occuring is so low on a one-off attempt....but it happened here!...but you are only focusing on one attempt, that will lead to the fine tuning opinion (not saying it is wrong), as your probability on one attempt for something so rare is astronomical.  But by adding the Septillions of attempts in the universe, as explained above, the probability increases to much more.

Considering the size of the universe, and the total lifespan of the universe (both prior to now, and yet to come), I'd say it's perfectly likely to happen somewhere at some time in some form by chance alone, so I agree. To think it proves "fine-tuning" shows a lack of scope imo.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on May 18, 2012, 02:04:56 PM
If you take the deterministic approach to the universe that I do, you actually have a 100% chance of getting a certain coin flip at a certain time. Everything that's occurred and ever will occur in the universe had a 100% chance of happening. Probability is only compensation for the fact that we don't have models advanced enough to predict everything to a tee.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 02:16:10 PM
Let's slow down for a second. Bosk is correct that the probability of a coin flip/random shuffle landing on a "success" value doesn't change with the number of attempts. However, it is also true that the probability of at least one success in a series of n attempts increases as n increases. If success is possible, and n is infinite, then probability of success rises to 100%.

Here's what we can conclude:

1) Given a single attempt (the atheist single universe hypothesis), the probability that the universe would be life-permitting is astronomically small.

2) Given an infinite number of attempts (the atheist multiple universe hypothesis), the probability that the universe would be life-permitting is 1.

I assume that (and I think it's a reasonable assumption) that a theist single universe has a higher probability of permitting life than an an atheist single universe's probability of permitting life. In other words, fine-tuning counts as evidence for theism over single-universe atheism. I concede that fine-tuning also counts as evidence for multiple-universe atheism over single-universe atheism.

At the end of the day, we should rule out single-universe atheism. The question remains, though, which is more plausible - multiple-universe atheism or theism.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 02:19:49 PM
Let's slow down for a second. Bosk is correct that the probability of a coin flip/random shuffle landing on a "success" value doesn't change with the number of attempts. However, it is also true that the probability of at least one success in a series of n attempts increases as n increases. If success is possible, and n is infinite, then probability of success rises to 100%.

Here's what we can conclude:

1) Given a single attempt (the atheist single universe hypothesis), the probability that the universe would be life-permitting is astronomically small.

2) Given an infinite number of attempts (the atheist multiple universe hypothesis), the probability that the universe would be life-permitting is 1.

I assume that (and I think it's a reasonable assumption) that a theist single universe has a higher probability of permitting life than an an atheist single universe's probability of permitting life. In other words, fine-tuning counts as evidence for theism over single-universe atheism. I concede that fine-tuning also counts as evidence for multiple-universe atheism over single-universe atheism.

At the end of the day, we should rule out single-universe atheism. The question remains, though, which is more plausible - multiple-universe atheism or theism.

No, you are counting the universe as one attempt.  The universe contains Septillions of chances for the scenario to permit life.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 02:22:48 PM
Dude, I don't know how you are disagreeing with me. I'm saying that if this universe was all there is, if this universe was a single attempt, then it would be vastly improbable that it would be life-permitting. I hate to talk down to you, but you are clearly not getting it. I am making a conditional statement. I am not actually claiming that the universe has only had one attempt.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 02:24:13 PM
At the end of the day, we should rule out single-universe atheism. The question remains, though, which is more plausible - multiple-universe atheism or theism.
Bingo.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 02:25:36 PM
Glad someone gets it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 02:27:05 PM
Dude, I don't know how you are disagreeing with me. I'm saying that if this universe was all there is, if this universe was a single attempt, then it would be vastly improbable that it would be life-permitting. I hate to talk down to you, but you are clearly not getting it. I am making a conditional statement. I am not actually claiming that the universe has only had one attempt.

Dude, I dont think a person who thinks the atom was the fundamental particle of nature and was indivisible can talk down to me.
You cant treat the set of attempts in the universe as one attempt.  It is a set of attempts, and therefore the probability goes up.
Its like saying Im going to treat the million times I flip the coin as 1 attempt.
The probability for the universe is not the same as its subsets of galaxys & solar systems.  The universe contains all of those sets of attempt and probabilites, and therefore its probability goes up from a one-off attempt. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 02:28:37 PM
You cant treat the set of attempts in the universe as one attempt.  It is a set of attempts, and therefore the probability goes up.
Its like saying Im going to treat the million times I flip the coin as 1 attempt.
You don't know that it was a set of attempts.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 02:30:44 PM
You cant treat the set of attempts in the universe as one attempt.  It is a set of attempts, and therefore the probability goes up.
Its like saying Im going to treat the million times I flip the coin as 1 attempt.
You don't know that it was a set of attempts.

Every solar system that came to be, when its star was born, has a chance to create the required scenario to support life.
There are Septillions of stars.
That is your set.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 02:30:53 PM
Quote from: eric42434224 link=topic=21192.msg1291719#msg1291719

No, you are counting the universe as one attempt.  The universe contains Septillions of chances for the scenario to permit life.

What is in question isn't the amount of possible instances of life forming in the universe we observe; what is in question is the values of the universal forces and universal constants that allow for the formation of life in the first place.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 02:34:57 PM
Quote from: eric42434224 link=topic=21192.msg1291719#msg1291719

No, you are counting the universe as one attempt.  The universe contains Septillions of chances for the scenario to permit life.

What is in question isn't the amount of possible instances of life forming in the universe we observe; what is in question is the values of the universal forces and universal constants that allow for the formation of life in the first place.
^That. Well stated.

We aren't talking about life-permitting conditions such as the distance between a planet and a star. We're talking about the constants that affect the fundamental laws of physics, such as the gravitational constant, or the mass ratio between a proton and a neutron.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 02:39:39 PM
Quote from: eric42434224 link=topic=21192.msg1291719#msg1291719

No, you are counting the universe as one attempt.  The universe contains Septillions of chances for the scenario to permit life.

What is in question isn't the amount of possible instances of life forming in the universe we observe; what is in question is the values of the universal forces and universal constants that allow for the formation of life in the first place.

Irrelevant to probability.  Even if I agree there is a god, and that he created the universal forces and constants that can "allow" for life to exist, that doesn't ensure life will or wont exist.  The universal constants are there, their origin doesnt change the probability.  The probabilities remain the same.

EDIT:  In fact, those very universal constants and forces can make life impossible under most circumstances.  Poor job of "fine-tuning" by an omnipotent being if the environment he creates is so immensly hostile and inefficient in creating life..
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 02:42:58 PM
I'm done. If anyone else has a good objection to my earlier post (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=21192.msg1291716#msg1291716), bring it up and I'll respond later today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 02:53:49 PM
I'm done. If anyone else has a good objection to my earlier post (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=21192.msg1291716#msg1291716), bring it up and I'll respond later today or tomorrow.

I thought my objection was clear.  The probabilities of life emerging on our planet have a probability.  The probability that it happened in our solar system have a greater probability as there are more attempts (planets).  The probability increases as we go out to galaxies, and eventually to the totality of the universe.  If you want to treat the universe as one attempt, that is fine, but its probability of life emerging must include the increasing probability going from its most basic set of attempts.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 18, 2012, 02:54:17 PM
No, GP is correct.  The odds of one trial do not change, but the number of trials does.

Well, not sure what I can say if that's what you guys think is correct.  But I did some quick google research to make sure they didn't change how math is done since back in the day when I took probability and statistics, and that research confirmed that I am mathematically correct.  So, okay, I guess that's about as far as we can go in this discussion.
I think you're talking about different things here. For each individual trial, the odds are, as you say, exactly the same regardless of how many times it's been done. So the chances on the 5,000th try are the same as they were on the 1st try.

But the probably that it will occur SOMEWHERE in that run of attempts is considerably higher. To give a basic example - rolling a die five times.

First let's say we want the probability rolling a 1 every throw. The probability is 1/6 on each throw, or 16.7%. The probably of getting all five to be a 1 is therefore 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6. This is a probability of 0.0129%, tiny.

Now let's say we want the probability that a 1 will come up at least once AT SOME POINT. The easiest way is to consider the only alternative possibility (because all possibilities will add up to 100%) - this is that all five throws will not be a 1, i.e. it will never come up. This is 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 40.2%. Thus, the probability of a 1 coming up at some point is 59.8%, which is rather a lot higher than the 16.7% of an individual throw.

Hope that makes sense. Not even sure how it relates to the subject of this thread, but just wanted to make clear the distinction between the two different things!
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 02:55:43 PM
Irrelevant to probability.  Even if I agree there is a god, and that he created the universal forces and constants that can "allow" for life to exist, that doesn't ensure life will or wont exist.  The universal constants are there, their origin doesnt change the probability.  The probabilities remain the same.

I have the distinct feeling that you have missed the point. The origin of these precise life permitting universal constants and universal forces which we observe is precisely what is in question.


Quote
EDIT:  In fact, those very universal constants and forces can make life impossible under most circumstances.

Precisely!

Quote
Poor job of "fine-tuning" by an omnipotent being if the environment he creates is so immensly hostile and inefficient in creating life..

Postulating to know the reasons why God may or may not permit multiple instances of life to form in the universe He created is exactly what would be considered as irrelevant to the conversation.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 18, 2012, 02:58:40 PM
 
The disagreement that may be occuring is when the probability of all the factors aligning for the possibility of life occuring is so low on a one-off attempt....but it happened here!...but you are only focusing on one attempt, that will lead to the fine tuning opinion (not saying it is wrong), as your probability on one attempt for something so rare is astronomical.  But by adding the Septillions of attempts in the universe, as explained above, the probability increases to much more.

Considering the size of the universe, and the total lifespan of the universe (both prior to now, and yet to come), I'd say it's perfectly likely to happen somewhere at some time in some form by chance alone, so I agree. To think it proves "fine-tuning" shows a lack of scope imo.

I wish that I could recall the 'exact' name of the program I watched on the Science Channel so I could at least link it. I apologize that I can't. The episode was focused on a group of scientists who had constructed a machine that essentially 'mimmicked' the Big Bang. It was a very smart computer program that crunched all variables. These scientists freely admitted that in order for life to exist not only here on earth but universally the EXACT amount of certain things like nitrogen, helium....all the elements had to be PRECISE. Mere fractions of a degree over or under universally would negate life EVERYWHERE.....and these levels of all the elements universe wide was all 'decided' within macro seconds of the Big Bang...almost instantly.
   The intriguing thing to me about the entire program was the fact that the lead scientist stated that their computer modeling and simulation had ran mulitple millions individual 'big bangs'....allowing for endless possible 'outcomes' to see if they could re-create life or if life throughout our universe might be sustained outside of what they believed it could be. They NEVER created a situation where life could have the possibility of developing much less sustain itself...in countless millions of attempts. The scientist admitted that the unique elemental make up of our universe and the sensitive and precise nature of their arrangement allows for life to exist. And in the line that sticks with me to this day a (what appeared to be) distinguished and very intelligent scientist described this fact in a very odd manner....he used the line "Lucky for Us that our Big Bang turned out the way it did". Lucky for us? That's the huge scientific revelation after this extensive study....."Lucky for Us" :rollin Yeah Bud.....Lucky for Us...it was all "Luck"
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 02:59:41 PM
Exactly.  Which is why H cant treat the probability of the universe having life as one attempt, the same as our solar system being one attempt.  The universe contains subsets of attempts, and its probability will me much higher.
Probability of life on Earth:  Astronomically small
Probability of life in universe:  Earths probability attempted 6 Septillion times.  Much higher probability.
H wants to treat the univers as one attempt, fine....but the probability is not going to be the Astronomically Small he thinks it is.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 03:07:28 PM
Irrelevant to probability.  Even if I agree there is a god, and that he created the universal forces and constants that can "allow" for life to exist, that doesn't ensure life will or wont exist.  The universal constants are there, their origin doesnt change the probability.  The probabilities remain the same.
I have the distinct feeling that you have missed the point. The origin of these precise life permitting universal constants and universal forces which we observe is precisely what is in question.
Quote
EDIT:  In fact, those very universal constants and forces can make life impossible under most circumstances.
Precisely!
Quote
Poor job of "fine-tuning" by an omnipotent being if the environment he creates is so immensly hostile and inefficient in creating life..

Postulating to know the reasons why God may or may not permit multiple instances of life to form in the universe He created is exactly what would be considered as irrelevant to the conversation.

Nope, that is a tangent you are off on, and it does not affect the statistical probability.  Its like with Evolution.  Its there, and there are statistical probabilities it will happen, and happen in certain ways.  You want to bring abiogenesis into the discussion.
We arent saying god did OR didnt put the puzzle pieces on the board.  We arent saying anything about the existence or origin of the pieces.  That is your issue.  We are saying that it is perfectly reasonable for some of those pieces to come together without the interference of god, and that it is completely possible to be random in nature.  If you want to say that is what god wanted all along, that is fine and you are entitled to your opinion.  We are simply saying we dont need god to show that life can randomly arise from puzzle pieces available and under no control.   

EDIT:  I think that it is entirely possible that, in respects to life arising in the universe, god was only involved as far as emptying out a 1,000,000 peice puzzle box on a table, and then a retarded monkey sits down, and randomly plays with the pieces.  Statistically he will get some to fit.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 03:12:05 PM
At the end of the day, we should rule out single-universe atheism. The question remains, though, which is more plausible - multiple-universe atheism or theism.
Bingo.

And given human knowledge, both are equally plausible. I see no reason why God is any more a likely reason than multiverses, as both are basically beyond the possibility for us to know.


Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 03:14:44 PM
You are making unnecessary distinctions with the solar system, Eric. Either a universe is life permitting or it is not. It doesn't matter if life could only be found on only one planet or in trillions. The parameters that universal constants and universal forces must meet to allow for the formation of life are incomprehensibly narrow. What is in question is what gave rise to the these life permitting constants and universal forces that fall into the incomprehensively narrow set of possibilities to allow for the formation of life, not to mention the very origin (as distinguished apart from explaining their mere value) of the very fundamental constants, forces and laws themselves.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 03:22:23 PM
You are making unnecessary distinctions with the solar system, Eric. Either a universe is life permitting or it is not. It doesn't matter if life could only be found on only one planet or in trillions. The parameters that universal constants and universal forces must meet to allow for the formation of life are incomprehensibly narrow. What is in question is what gave rise to the these life permitting constants and universal forces that fall into the incomprehensively narrow set of possibilities to allow for the formation of life, not to mention the very origin (as distinguished apart from explaining their mere value) of the very fundamental constants, forces and laws themselves.

The universe is either life permitting or not.  Correct.  After I flip a coin a million times, I will get heads or not.  Whats your point?

The parameters exist in each of the Septillion solar system attempts, making the probability for life in the universe greater.
The parameters in each of the million coin flips exist, making the probabilities of the one "event" (the million flips) greater.
"
What gave rise to these parameters is not the question here.  It is a question that you have inserted into the existing discussion.

If God picked the four forces necessary for the universe to work, and for life to be possible, it is not necessary for him to finely tune the forces to have life actually emerge. 



EDIT:  Think of it this way:

god was only involved as far as emptying out a 1,000,000 peice puzzle box on a table.  Some of these pieces have the ability, when put together properly, to fit and make part of a picture......like your forces and matter to create some type of life.  And then a retarded monkey sits down, and randomly plays with the pieces.  Statistically he will get some to fit.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 03:33:42 PM
Quote
If God picked the four forces necessary for the universe to work, and for life to be possible, it is not necessary for him to finely tune the forces to have life actually emerge. 

As much as it pains me to say this, Omega's more right on this issue.




Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 03:34:36 PM
Quote
If God picked the four forces necessary for the universe to work, and for life to be possible, it is not necessary for him to finely tune the forces to have life actually emerge. 

As much as it pains me to say this, Omega's more right on this issue.

I am willing to accept that if you can show me why.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 03:40:13 PM
Quote
If God picked the four forces necessary for the universe to work, and for life to be possible, it is not necessary for him to finely tune the forces to have life actually emerge. 

As much as it pains me to say this, Omega's more right on this issue.

I am willing to accept that if you can show me why.

Go watch that video I linked to earlier, it deals with one constant that, if changed, would mean matter, galaxies and solar systems wouldn't form. They'd literally be pushed apart, and gravity wouldn't be strong enough to compensate.



Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 03:44:52 PM
Quote
If God picked the four forces necessary for the universe to work, and for life to be possible, it is not necessary for him to finely tune the forces to have life actually emerge. 

As much as it pains me to say this, Omega's more right on this issue.

I am willing to accept that if you can show me why.

Go watch that video I linked to earlier, it deals with one constant that, if changed, would mean matter, galaxies and solar systems wouldn't form. They'd literally be pushed apart, and gravity wouldn't be strong enough to compensate.

Im not disputing that.  I am saying that once those constants are in place, the scenario of them coming together in a way to allow for life doesnt need fine tuning or involvement from god.  Those constants dont have to cause life, but can by random.

EDIT:
So maybe macro fine tuning, and micro random? 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 18, 2012, 03:45:03 PM
Thing is, I've heard that as an argument for the existence of a divine creator many times, but I think that link is a matter of faith and not fact.

If the constant had been different, we wouldn't be here to question it, or understand it. There's nothing to say that there couldn't be a trillion other existences out there with big empty universes because those variables were different, or even ones where universes never even formed because other variables were even more out.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 04:05:09 PM
Thing is, I've heard that as an argument for the existence of a divine creator many times, but I think that link is a matter of faith and not fact.

If the constant had been different, we wouldn't be here to question it, or understand it. There's nothing to say that there couldn't be a trillion other existences out there with big empty universes because those variables were different, or even ones where universes never even formed because other variables were even more out.

Or universes that DO have life using all together different constants in differing configurations.  To say that the existing constants of our universe, in the existing configuration, is the only possible way to allow for life is a bit premature to say the least.  A God should be able to create laws and constants and scenarios that we could never imagine.  The scenario that exists in our universe could be the result of a random paring of random constants in a random configuration.  Did god create it?  Maybe, but it could have been by chance.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 04:17:02 PM
At the end of the day, we should rule out single-universe atheism. The question remains, though, which is more plausible - multiple-universe atheism or theism.
Bingo.

And given human knowledge, both are equally plausible. I see no reason why God is any more a likely reason than multiverses, as both are basically beyond the possibility for us to know.



Given the evidence of fine-tuning alone, an intellectually responsible person should not decide between either an atheistic multiuniverse hypothesis and theism. He should then acquire additional evidence to decide between the two - the existence of evil, for instance, to support multiuniverse atheism. Or the existence of morality to support theism. Or personal experience. And so on.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 04:20:38 PM
At the end of the day, we should rule out single-universe atheism. The question remains, though, which is more plausible - multiple-universe atheism or theism.
Bingo.

And given human knowledge, both are equally plausible. I see no reason why God is any more a likely reason than multiverses, as both are basically beyond the possibility for us to know.
Wouldn't go that far. ;)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 05:01:17 PM
No, GP is correct.  The odds of one trial do not change, but the number of trials does.

Well, not sure what I can say if that's what you guys think is correct.  But I did some quick google research to make sure they didn't change how math is done since back in the day when I took probability and statistics, and that research confirmed that I am mathematically correct.  So, okay, I guess that's about as far as we can go in this discussion.
I think you're talking about different things here. For each individual trial, the odds are, as you say, exactly the same regardless of how many times it's been done. So the chances on the 5,000th try are the same as they were on the 1st try.

But the probably that it will occur SOMEWHERE in that run of attempts is considerably higher. To give a basic example - rolling a die five times.

First let's say we want the probability rolling a 1 every throw. The probability is 1/6 on each throw, or 16.7%. The probably of getting all five to be a 1 is therefore 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6. This is a probability of 0.0129%, tiny.

Now let's say we want the probability that a 1 will come up at least once AT SOME POINT. The easiest way is to consider the only alternative possibility (because all possibilities will add up to 100%) - this is that all five throws will not be a 1, i.e. it will never come up. This is 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 40.2%. Thus, the probability of a 1 coming up at some point is 59.8%, which is rather a lot higher than the 16.7% of an individual throw.

Hope that makes sense. Not even sure how it relates to the subject of this thread, but just wanted to make clear the distinction between the two different things!

I know that, but Eric, GP, and Mr. Seoafs are conflating the two as if they are the same thing.


Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 18, 2012, 05:03:24 PM
Also, I disagree with Hayden's assertion that single-universe could be ruled out. For a start, being very unlikely does not make something impossible. And even within the realm of very unlikely, we still don't understand the nature of time. What was before what we think of as the start of our universe? Is time infinite? If time is infinite, then it's just as plausible that what we think of as constants will change and have every possible configuration throughout eternity.

It's just as plausible as theism or multi-universe atheism.

I do, however, agree that each individual will make a choice (or indeed choose not to do so, like myself) based on their own experiences, beliefs, etc.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 18, 2012, 05:05:44 PM
I know that, but Eric, GP, and Mr. Seoafs are conflating the two as if they are the same thing.
I think they may have not worded it clearly enough, but in the context of this discussion, I'm fairly sure they were trying to get that point across: i.e. if there are infinite possibilities across the universe/multiverse, then it becomes a certainty that every possibility will be played out, including sentient life.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 05:06:34 PM
No, GP is correct.  The odds of one trial do not change, but the number of trials does.

Well, not sure what I can say if that's what you guys think is correct.  But I did some quick google research to make sure they didn't change how math is done since back in the day when I took probability and statistics, and that research confirmed that I am mathematically correct.  So, okay, I guess that's about as far as we can go in this discussion.
I think you're talking about different things here. For each individual trial, the odds are, as you say, exactly the same regardless of how many times it's been done. So the chances on the 5,000th try are the same as they were on the 1st try.

But the probably that it will occur SOMEWHERE in that run of attempts is considerably higher. To give a basic example - rolling a die five times.

First let's say we want the probability rolling a 1 every throw. The probability is 1/6 on each throw, or 16.7%. The probably of getting all five to be a 1 is therefore 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6. This is a probability of 0.0129%, tiny.

Now let's say we want the probability that a 1 will come up at least once AT SOME POINT. The easiest way is to consider the only alternative possibility (because all possibilities will add up to 100%) - this is that all five throws will not be a 1, i.e. it will never come up. This is 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 40.2%. Thus, the probability of a 1 coming up at some point is 59.8%, which is rather a lot higher than the 16.7% of an individual throw.

Hope that makes sense. Not even sure how it relates to the subject of this thread, but just wanted to make clear the distinction between the two different things!

I know that, but Eric, GP, and Mr. Seoafs are conflating the two as if they are the same thing.

They are the same thing.  Both Statistical probability.  One has one attempt, the other has multiple attempts.

You were, as we said, correct, when looking at only one instance.  But since there are more instances taking place, you look at the probability of the instances as a whole, which will have a higher probability.

They are not different.  They are the same statistical probabilities, just for a differeing set of attempts.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 05:11:00 PM
Also, I disagree with Hayden's assertion that single-universe could be ruled out. For a start, being very unlikely does not make something impossible. And even within the realm of very unlikely, we still don't understand the nature of time. What was before what we think of as the start of our universe? Is time infinite? If time is infinite, then it's just as plausible that what we think of as constants will change and have every possible configuration throughout eternity.

It's just as plausible as theism or multi-universe atheism.

I do, however, agree that each individual will make a choice (or indeed choose not to do so, like myself) based on their own experiences, beliefs, etc.
Modern science says the time our universe has existed is finite, so I just took it for granted that this single universe has only existed for a certain amount of time. But you are correct that if time is infinite, we would expect to see life (i.e. success in our cosmic dice roll) at some point. I just think that the "time is infinite" approach only works with a multiple-universe hypothesis.

Not sure if this was made clear before, but I take an oscillating universe to be a potential model in the "multiple universe" hypothesis, where constants have been "reset" every oscillation period.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 05:15:36 PM
I know that, but Eric, GP, and Mr. Seoafs are conflating the two as if they are the same thing.
We were not.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 18, 2012, 05:16:40 PM
Well actually, modern science does not say anything about time being finite, as far as I'm aware, only that the big bang happened at a defined point, and that it is considered the start of our universe. Of course, nobody knows what existed before that, but personally I'm interested in the fact that since the very first nanosecond of the big bang, there has been a fixed amount of mass/energy in the universe - never increasing or decreasing. So either existence has always been there in some form, possibly with the oscillating universe idea you mentioned, or that that energy/mass was created by a divine creator, to start things off in the first place.

It's something we can't possible know and never will know, I just find it interesting.

And yeah, I think I understand you now - if we talk about anything outside of what we think of as our universe, whether that is in time or space or any other dimensions that might exist, then you'd call that multiverse. And by that definition, I'd broadly agree that it is by far the least likely. But as I said, it still doesn't make it impossible, and so still can't be written off.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 05:23:49 PM
Well actually, modern science does not say anything about time being finite, as far as I'm aware, only that the big bang happened at a defined point, and that it is considered the start of our universe. Of course, nobody knows what existed before that, but personally I'm interested in the fact that since the very first nanosecond of the big bang, there has been a fixed amount of mass/energy in the universe - never increasing or decreasing. So either existence has always been there in some form, possibly with the oscillating universe idea you mentioned, or that that energy/mass was created by a divine creator, to start things off in the first place.

It's something we can't possible know and never will know, I just find it interesting.

And yeah, I think I understand you now - if we talk about anything outside of what we think of as our universe, whether that is in time or space or any other dimensions that might exist, then you'd call that multiverse. And by that definition, I'd broadly agree that it is by far the least likely. But as I said, it still doesn't make it impossible, and so still can't be written off.
I think I agree with you, mostly.

When I said "time is finite", I meant past time, or previous constant-determining dice rolls to think of it another way.

I just want to be careful that I don't use the term "multiple-universe hypothesis" to only refer to a multiverse. I'm using it in a way that also refers to a single oscillating universe. But I think you picked up on that.

What I think is unlikely is a single universe that has only had one dice roll to determine its constants, and that those constants happened to permit life. It sounds like you are on board with that idea?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 18, 2012, 05:28:10 PM
Indeed, I'm merely explaining that extremely likely does not equal impossible.

Even if it were only the one cosmic dice roll, and a failure would have meant no existence whatsoever, then it would still have been possible to end up the way we have. And indeed, if it had failed, there would never have been sentient life to have this discussion in the first place.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 05:29:59 PM
Well, it's possible, I'll give you that. But it's pretty darned close to impossible.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 05:54:54 PM
Indeed, I'm merely explaining that extremely likely does not equal impossible.

Even if it were only the one cosmic dice roll, and a failure would have meant no existence whatsoever, then it would still have been possible to end up the way we have. And indeed, if it had failed, there would never have been sentient life to have this discussion in the first place.

Well, it's possible, I'll give you that. But it's pretty darned close to impossible.

It is about as impossible as drawing from an infinite set of numbers the number 10984 every time with every draw. Another analogy; it would be like rolling a die that has infinite sides an infinite amount of rolls, and every time, each roll results in fours. This is so improbable, in fact, that there would be an infinite number of chances it would never happen. If the actual number of possibilities is itself infinite, having an infinite number of instances does nothing to help increase the chances of "hitting the right numbers" to produce an ordered, life-sustaining universe.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 18, 2012, 05:57:08 PM
Those analogies are impossible. If you roll the dice an infinite amount of times, you will see every possible solution at least once. With the single universe hypothesis, it's not, strictly speaking, impossible.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 05:59:00 PM
I was addressing the many worlds hypothesis, H. Pardon the confusion. But even given a single universe, there would still be an infinite amount of values that the universal constants and laws could assume, so either way, you are rolling an infinitely-sided die and hoping it lands on the magic number at least once. Which is nigh impossible and cries out for an explanation for why it has.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 18, 2012, 06:03:55 PM
If the actual number of possibilities is itself infinite, having an infinite number of instances does nothing to help increase the chances of "hitting the right numbers" to produce an ordered, life-sustaining universe.

Well I guess we didn't hit the right number since our world isn't ordered (it's chaotic) nor life-sustaining (extinction of all life is unavoidable). If we're talking about infinities then there would be an infinity of possible universes that are even more ordered and more life-sustaining.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2012, 06:07:11 PM
Rathma brought up a good point that eventually all life will be gone from earth. It brings up the possibilities that A) life has existed in the past elsewhere (maybe even close by) yet circumstances changed thus causing that same place to no longer support life (just as earth will eventually not support life) and B) that eventually in other places, circumstances may very well become life supporting.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 06:16:33 PM
Well I guess we didn't hit the right number since our world isn't ordered (it's chaotic).

Our universe isn't ordered? Science rests on the very supposition that it is ordered. To assert that the universe is not ordered is to render science useless.

Quote from: Omega
Changes in either the gravitational constant or the weak force constant of only one part in 10100 would have prevented a life-permitting universe. Observations indicate that at 10-43 second after the Big Bang, the universe was expanding at a fantastically special rate of speed with a total density close to the critical values on the borderline between recollapse and everlasting expansion. Hawking estimates that a decrease in the expansion rate of even one part in a hundred thousand million million (1000000000000000000000000) one second after the Big Bang would have resulted in the universe's recollapse long ago; a similar increase would have precluded galaxies' condensing out of the expanding matter. Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little as 5%, life would be impossible (Leslie, 1989, pp. 4, 35; Barrow and Tipler, p. 322). Calculations by Brandon Carter show that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 1040, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible (Davies, 1984, p. 242). If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons or all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would not be possible (Leslie, 1989, pp. 39-40 ). If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible, for a variety of different reasons (Leslie, 1988, p. 299).

And before we even bother with acknowledging the narrow range of life-permitting value that the universal constants and laws "just so happen to" exhibit, let us take a step back and observe that universal constants such as gravity, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, expansion rate, etc even exist in the first place, for we have no reason to think that a force such as gravity exists necessarily and certainly not in the life-permitting value that it does.


Quote
nor life-sustaining (extinction of all life is unavoidable).

Our universe is obviously life-permitting. It is irrelevant that all organisms are destined to die both individually and collectively. If the universe wasn't life-permitting, we would not be having this conversation. Nowhere have I defended the bizarre claim that our universe must necessarily sustain life for x amount of time. Such an endeavor would be pointless and confusing it with the central point of the conversation would be a waste of everyone's time.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 06:21:50 PM
Our universe isn't ordered? Science rests on the very supposition that it is ordered.

Science rests on the very supposition that it is "ordered?"
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 06:23:12 PM
Our universe isn't ordered? Science rests on the very supposition that it is ordered.

Science rests on the very supposition that it is "ordered?"

Doesn't science show that it is the nature of the universe that things move toward disorder?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 06:27:14 PM
Our universe isn't ordered? Science rests on the very supposition that it is ordered.

Science rests on the very supposition that it is "ordered?"

Doesn't science show that it is the nature of the universe that things move toward disorder?

Move toward "disorder?"
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 06:28:57 PM
Chaos?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 06:29:26 PM
Chaos?

"Chaos?"
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2012, 06:29:58 PM
Chaos?

"Chaos?"

"?"
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 18, 2012, 06:30:39 PM
Chaos?

"Chaos?"

"?"

'' ''
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 06:31:14 PM
This thread = A+
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 18, 2012, 07:07:29 PM
Well I guess we didn't hit the right number since our world isn't ordered (it's chaotic).

Our universe isn't ordered? Science rests on the very supposition that it is ordered. To assert that the universe is not ordered is to render science useless.

Nope, the universe is not ordered. We impose perceived "order" onto the chaos that is out there. Science is the analysis of chaos in order for us to predict chaos to the best of our ability, and this proves quite useful so no science is not useless. The concept of order has no place in science.

And lol @ the idea that science supposes something. Science is a method, not a belief system.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 07:14:42 PM
Our universe isn't ordered? Science rests on the very supposition that it is ordered.

Science rests on the very supposition that it is "ordered?"

Yes, that the universe is ordered, I mean. Since the universe exists in the middle place of becoming (it is always changing), science can be done, but never with certainty. Science searches for patterns in the cosmos. These patterns would be stable. Any given event in the universe is the product of change, but this change is lawlike and mathematical, and therefore predictable. Ever since Galileo, Kepler, Newton, etc, science has been aimed at the prediction and control of events which happen in a predictable, orderly fashion. Were our universe not ordered, there would be no pattern for science to grasp, no predictable change or chain of events. Science would therefore be rendered completely useless (never mind the fact that no life could form if the universe lacked all order).
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 07:17:20 PM
And lol @ the idea that science supposes something. Science is a method, not a belief system.

Please don't make me explain all of the philosophical foundations which science presupposes and rests upon again. Please.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: bosk1 on May 18, 2012, 07:22:24 PM
And lol @ the idea that science supposes something. Science is a method, not a belief system.

Please don't make me explain all of the philosophical foundations which science presupposes and rests upon again. Please.

Omega, I'm not going to tell you again.  Drop the condescending attitude.  Final warning.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: yeshaberto on May 18, 2012, 07:30:53 PM
I had already given him a final.    Goodbye
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2012, 07:33:08 PM
Peace out
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 18, 2012, 07:39:38 PM
And lol @ the idea that science supposes something. Science is a method, not a belief system.

Please don't make me explain all of the philosophical foundations which science presupposes and rests upon again. Please.

Now you're saying that science has a philosophical foundation? That's the most bizarre thing I've heard you say. Science is simply trial and error to see what works best. What you're talking about is an ideology.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 08:05:53 PM
And lol @ the idea that science supposes something. Science is a method, not a belief system.

Please don't make me explain all of the philosophical foundations which science presupposes and rests upon again. Please.

Now you're saying that science has a philosophical foundation? That's the most bizarre thing I've heard you say. Science is simply trial and error to see what works best. What you're talking about is an ideology.

Science most certainly has a philosophical foundation. It's an epistemological theory regarding how you attain truth, etc. It makes several assumptions, including that trial and error is what works best. It was a method devised by a philosopher in response to thousands of years of philosophers simply making stuff up, but having no way to verify it.

But the reason science differs from any other theory is that it produces effects, it has power, etc. If science didn't get something right, then I wouldn't be using a computer right now.

Move toward "disorder?"

Second law of thermodynamics. Which is, as of this point in time, is basically the theory your theory has to agree with. If you disobey the second law of thermodynamics, you're laughed at and your theory is rejected. Interestingly enough, it's so far our best definition of time. Time is the increase in entropy, or the increase in disorder.


Given the evidence of fine-tuning alone, an intellectually responsible person should not decide between either an atheistic multiuniverse hypothesis and theism.

That's what I just said? I've brought up the multiverse theory not becuase I think it's true, but because it provides an alternite explanation for how the "fine-tuning" can come about, by pure chance.

@bosk:

It is fallacious to imbue meaning upon coincidence. Or it's at least illogical. I remember reading about it numerous times in my psychology 101 book. Humans do it all the time, and almost all of the time there's absolutely no meaning behind it. It's just, well, coincidence.


Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: XJDenton on May 18, 2012, 08:10:58 PM
Whilst I disagree with most of what Omega says, science certainly does have a philosophical foundation, especially concerning the nature falsifiability and such like.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 18, 2012, 09:03:40 PM
Telling my step-son (the agnostic) about this conversation...and he's kindof a science buff.   He's getting a big chuckle out of this.

What he said just now made me laugh..."Science *does* have a philosophical foundation based on the supposition that *EVERYTHING* can be catagorized, quantified and named BY SCIENCE....  THAT is a philiosophy!"

Just made me chuckle coming from an agnostic science nerd. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 18, 2012, 09:07:42 PM
Science most certainly has a philosophical foundation. It's an epistemological theory regarding how you attain truth, etc.

Science (or philosophy for that matter) never makes truth statements. Only religion (and only a certain kind of religion) is conceited enough to treat statements it makes at the same level as truth itself. I've never heard science described as an epistemological theory. What exactly does this theory state?

Quote
It makes several assumptions, including that trial and error is what works best.


Scientists may say this, but science itself? The scientific method has nothing to say about values, and "best" is clearly a value. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 18, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
Science most certainly has a philosophical foundation. It's an epistemological theory regarding how you attain truth, etc.

Science (or philosophy for that matter) never makes truth statements.

(https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/jammindude/spit-take.jpg)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 18, 2012, 09:15:46 PM
Peace out
Truly the end of an era.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 18, 2012, 09:22:04 PM
(https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/jammindude/spit-take.jpg)

The concepts that are generated from scientific activities are all models. Even something as generally accepted as "E=mc2" isn't infallible and if anybody every said it was, it wasn't science that guided them to that, it's ideology.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 18, 2012, 09:25:45 PM
(https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/jammindude/spit-take.jpg)

The concepts that are generated from scientific activities are all models. Even something as generally accepted as "E=mc2" isn't infallible and if anybody every said it was, it wasn't science that guided them to that, it's ideology.

Well...I'll give you this.   It's quite refreshing to hear that evolution is NOT a infallible *fact*... I agree with you wholeheartedly.   ;D

EDIT:  I want to add that I think you're an exception to the rule...the scientific community as a whole does make *MANY* statements of truth.   And I for one, agree with about 80-90% of the FACTS that they support.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 18, 2012, 09:30:41 PM
Math aside (since I know nothing about it), I'm pretty sure the scientific community considers all of their ideas up for debate if someone could provide proof. Facts are not up for debate. Maybe that's what he means?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 11:29:00 PM
Science most certainly has a philosophical foundation. It's an epistemological theory regarding how you attain truth, etc.

Science (or philosophy for that matter) never makes truth statements. Only religion (and only a certain kind of religion) is conceited enough to treat statements it makes at the same level as truth itself. I've never heard science described as an epistemological theory. What exactly does this theory state?

There's a reason physics was originally called "natural philosophy."

And okay, let me clarify and use my terms correctly: science makes claims of knowledge (which is pretty much redundant, seeing as how "science" means "knowledge" in Latin), where "knowledge" is defined as, "justified true belief." Science claims something to known, when it can be reproduced by other persons, following the same procedures. I would also make a distinction between Truth, and truth. It is true that F = MA, becuase anytime anyone has ever done the math, the experiments, etc, they get the result that f = MA. This is a model, a model describing behavior, and it's one that can be used.

Perhaps just as importantly, science can tell us what is not true. It's often negative. If an hypothesis is put forward, and the data and results to not match the hypothesis, that hypothesis is wrong.

Now, I agree, science is inherently skeptical, and proper science doesn't assume anything it's discovered to be infallible - indeed, for something to be science, in must be falsifiable, at least in theory. That is, it's possible to run tests to ascertain if a hypothesis is an accurate description of what happens. It's theoretically possible to run the tests, and have force equal something other than mass times acceleration, even though no one has ever, ever done so (and there's thousands of physics students doing this test every year).

But it is quite obvious that science makes a claim towards knowledge, and for something to be called knowledge, it must relate to the truth. You cant know something, when it's false, can you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Quote
There are basic assumptions derived from philosophy that form the base of the scientific method - namely, that reality is objective and consistent, that humans have the capacity to perceive reality accurately, and that rational explanations exist for elements of the real world.

Just made me chuckle coming from an agnostic science nerd. 

You are aware that I'm making the same claims, as a similiar person, in this thread?

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: XJDenton on May 18, 2012, 11:32:17 PM
Direct observations (ie. facts) are truth. Whether the models that explain those facts are truth or not depends on whether you subsribe to a scientific realist or instrumentalist philosophy. I lean towards the latter interpretation, but as science improves the models the distinction between what humans can classify as truth and merely a highly model will converge.

Also, hate to be that guy Scheavo, but F = ma only works in the low v limit. :p
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 18, 2012, 11:37:21 PM
Well, c'mon, you know what I mean. Cause really, all of Newtonian physics is technically wrong, otherwise we wouldn't have quantum mechanics, but it's still a workable theory. I would say, then, that Newtonian physics is definitely not True, but it is true. Engineers still rely upon this model of physics to do a lot of things.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 18, 2012, 11:59:49 PM
My spit take is only because this is so far away from what the scientific community as a whole teaches.   I keep a good eye on science....I see the models for the evolution theory...I just interpret them differently because I see the hand of an artist behind it, and I see a progression of ideas rather than one kind of thing morphing into another kind of thing.    The science community as a whole would just assume label me as insane, and claim that evolution *IS* *A* *FACT*....so to hear a couple of people who believe in science admit that nothing is *THAT* forgone of a conclusion is refreshing to say the least.   It's not what I'm used to hearing from those in the scientific community.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 19, 2012, 12:22:11 AM
Evolution is as factual as gravity. You cannot deny that evolution exists, anymore than you can deny that gravity exists. We have witnessed it numerous times, and without evolutionary theory, many fields of science would be incoherent and at a road block.

Was is not settled, is what exactly evolution is, how to define it, etc. Just like gravity, where we know gravity exists, we can't say for sure that Einsteins theory of Gravity is accurate, or that it is the Truth. That theory, regarding gravity, is falsifiable, and up for debate. What is not up for debate, is that gravity exists. And what is not up for debate, is that evolution exists.

Now, that doesn't mean there theoretically can't be other factors or other forces involved. Evolution does not deny God in any way, and most importantly evolution makes no claim regarding the origins of life, it only makes a claim regarding the origins of species, and why there is the great variety of life that we see.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: XJDenton on May 19, 2012, 12:49:43 AM
Well, c'mon, you know what I mean. Cause really, all of Newtonian physics is technically wrong, otherwise we wouldn't have quantum mechanics, but it's still a workable theory. I would say, then, that Newtonian physics is definitely not True, but it is true. Engineers still rely upon this model of physics to do a lot of things.

I know, hence why I referred to myself as "that guy", ie a pedantic bastard.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 19, 2012, 02:09:18 AM
Whilst I disagree with most of what Omega says, science certainly does have a philosophical foundation, especially concerning the nature falsifiability and such like.
This. And particularly in very advanced physics, where observation actually changes the state of something (Schroedinger's cat), philosophy is an integral part.

Our universe isn't ordered? Science rests on the very supposition that it is ordered.

Science rests on the very supposition that it is "ordered?"

Doesn't science show that it is the nature of the universe that things move toward disorder?
If you're talking about entropy, then yes, you're basically correct. Without an input of energy, things will only either stay static or because more disordered.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 19, 2012, 02:12:28 AM
When did "extremely improbable" become synonymous with "completely impossible without God"?

(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/motivation/THERESACHANCE.jpg)

BTW, yesterday golfer Michelle Wie hit not one but TWO holes in one in the front nine.  That is the most improbable thing I've ever heard of that actually happened.  But it is clearly not impossible, because it actually happened.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kári on May 19, 2012, 02:24:03 AM
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_one
Two holes in 1 on 9 courses = (1/2500)^2 * (2499/2500)^7 = about 1 in 6.5 million. I'm sure you have witnessed more improbable things without realizing.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 19, 2012, 02:39:28 AM
Oh, stop it.

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 19, 2012, 02:40:09 AM
When did "extremely improbable" become synonymous with "completely impossible without God"?
Exactly. On a personal level some people may want to consider this as a confirmation to themselves of their faith/belief, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinions and beliefs. But I don't think it makes sense to argue it as scientific proof because as far as I'm concerned the two things are unrelated.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_one
Two holes in 1 on 9 courses = (1/2500)^2 * (2499/2500)^7 = about 1 in 6.5 million. I'm sure you have witnessed more improbable things without realizing.
Yep, incredibly improbable things happen all the time. Just most of them are not noteworthy enough to be made a big deal out of.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 19, 2012, 06:14:35 AM
Well, c'mon, you know what I mean. Cause really, all of Newtonian physics is technically wrong, otherwise we wouldn't have quantum mechanics, but it's still a workable theory. I would say, then, that Newtonian physics is definitely not True, but it is true. Engineers still rely upon this model of physics to do a lot of things.

Then I'm sure you understand the point that I've been making from the get go, that science is about what works, not what is true in the philosophical sense, and therefore doesn't need any philosophical assumptions.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 19, 2012, 06:45:07 AM
And okay, let me clarify and use my terms correctly: science makes claims of knowledge (which is pretty much redundant, seeing as how "science" means "knowledge" in Latin), where "knowledge" is defined as, "justified true belief." Science claims something to known, when it can be reproduced by other persons, following the same procedures. I would also make a distinction between Truth, and truth. It is true that F = MA, becuase anytime anyone has ever done the math, the experiments, etc, they get the result that f = MA. This is a model, a model describing behavior, and it's one that can be used.


Below is something I stumbled across yesterday:

Quote
Gettier problem
Plato suggests, in his Theaetetus, Meno, and other dialogues, that "knowledge" may be defined as justified true belief. For over two millennia, this definition of knowledge has been reinforced and accepted by subsequent philosophers, who accepted justifiability, truth, and belief as the necessary criteria for information to earn the special designation of being "knowledge."

In 1963, however, Edmund Gettier published an article in the periodical Analysis entitled "Is Justified True Belief Knowledge?", offering instances of justified true belief that do not conform to the generally understood meaning of "knowledge." Gettier's examples hinged on instances of epistemic luck: cases where a person appears to have sound evidence for a proposition, and that proposition is in fact true, but the apparent evidence is not causally related to the proposition's truth.

In response to Gettier's article, numerous philosophers have offered modified criteria for "knowledge." There is no general consensus to adopt any of the modified definitions yet proposed.

So I'm going to go ahead and assume that science itself no longer claims knowledge (since there is no agreed upon definition of knowledge) and any such claim is only a philosophy of science or epistemological theory.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 19, 2012, 07:54:34 AM
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_one
Two holes in 1 on 9 courses = (1/2500)^2 * (2499/2500)^7 = about 1 in 6.5 million. I'm sure you have witnessed more improbable things without realizing.

Didnt she have two holes in one on 9 holes, not 9 courses?

Out of curiosity, what is the probability of that?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kári on May 19, 2012, 08:06:16 AM
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_one
Two holes in 1 on 9 courses = (1/2500)^2 * (2499/2500)^7 = about 1 in 6.5 million. I'm sure you have witnessed more improbable things without realizing.

Didnt she have two holes in one on 9 holes, not 9 courses?

Out of curiosity, what is the probability of that?
Yes I meant if you shoot on 9 holes. It says in the article the probability of making a hole-in-one for a pro-golfer is estimated at 1/2500.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 19, 2012, 09:11:46 AM
That's still a gross oversimplification.     More accurate would be to bury the entire state of Texas three feet deep in silver dollars, then randomly sending a blindfolded person into that state, and telling him he's got one shot to find the buried penny. 


EDIT: and BTW...even that has better mathematical odds than life coming about by chance.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 19, 2012, 09:35:14 AM
That's still a gross oversimplification.     More accurate would be to bury the entire state of Texas three feet deep in silver dollars, then randomly sending a blindfolded person into that state, and telling him he's got one shot to find the buried penny. 


EDIT: and BTW...even that has better mathematical odds than life coming about by chance.

But give him a Septillion chances.  Odds get a tad bit better.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 19, 2012, 10:01:32 AM
That's still a gross oversimplification.     More accurate would be to bury the entire state of Texas three feet deep in silver dollars, then randomly sending a blindfolded person into that state, and telling him he's got one shot to find the buried penny. 


EDIT: and BTW...even that has better mathematical odds than life coming about by chance.

But give him a Septillion chances.  Odds get a tad bit better.


So now it's my turn....

(https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/jammindude/THERESACHANCE.jpg)


Again...we're back to my illustration of finding a carved statue on an archaeological expedition and claiming it wasn't made.   Could you make an argument that such a thing *COULD* come about by chance?  Come up with photographic evidence of random rock formations that look similar?  You could...but no reasonable person would take you seriously.   Only the ones who desperately wanted to believe that there had never been a intelligent society on that site.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 19, 2012, 10:31:25 AM
That's still a gross oversimplification.     More accurate would be to bury the entire state of Texas three feet deep in silver dollars, then randomly sending a blindfolded person into that state, and telling him he's got one shot to find the buried penny. 


EDIT: and BTW...even that has better mathematical odds than life coming about by chance.

But give him a Septillion chances.  Odds get a tad bit better.


So now it's my turn....

(https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/jammindude/THERESACHANCE.jpg)


Again...we're back to my illustration of finding a carved statue on an archaeological expedition and claiming it wasn't made.   Could you make an argument that such a thing *COULD* come about by chance?  Come up with photographic evidence of random rock formations that look similar?  You could...but no reasonable person would take you seriously.   Only the ones who desperately wanted to believe that there had never been a intelligent society on that site.

What do the two have to do with each other?  Its just statistical probabilities. 
Yesterday, I saw a cloud that looked exactly like my dog. 
The human mind will attach meaning where there is none.  And that goes for both sides.  In my example, my mind saw my dog Stella.  In your example someone refused to see the carved statue.
Both are irrelevant to my post....I was merely talking about statistical probability with no attached meaning.
Some want to see gods hand in the statistical improbability of the random appearance of life on Earth.  Thats fine.
I merely point out that when you add the incredible massive set of attempts in the universe (or attempts to find silver dollars in Texas), that statistic moves in the more probable direction....quite a bit so.
Some look at that as evidence there is more life in the universe.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 19, 2012, 10:38:21 AM
@Jammin: That analogy doesn't really hold. Firstly, given the laws of science as they are (for whatever reason that they are that way), it's even less likely that a rock would form from natural erosion into a highly detailed carving. Second, and more importantly, the reason we identify it as obviously being man-made (but still not 100% certainly) is our experience with sculptures that we do know with 100% certainty are man-made. We see a man made carving, and a very very similar carving, and we associate the two. Whereas there is no comparitor for "the universe". :P
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 19, 2012, 10:55:37 AM
So I'm going to go ahead and assume that science itself no longer claims knowledge (since there is no agreed upon definition of knowledge) and any such claim is only a philosophy of science or epistemological theory.

Gettier problems are very specific, and don't really destroy knowledge, or even necessarily the best definition of knowledge put forward of justified true belief. Basically, Getteir subverts the "true" part of that definition, actually make it so the proposition is false, unknowingly, and relying upon this. Many philosophers reject it outright, and his argument is basically akin to saying, well, we could always be a brain in a vat, or we could all be living in a matrix. There's always a philosophical skeptical objection that can be made to anything, and I think the key is notice the similarities in all these objections, and just, well, ignore them becuase you won't get anywhere taking those objections seriously.



Also, I would just say that, even if there isn't an "agreed upon" definition of knowledge, doesn't mean that science can't make claims of knowledge. The fact that science makes claims of knowledge is evidence in the very name of science, it means knowledge. You're basically arguing that science isn't science.

Science makes several claims that are itself not scientific, the most important being that reality is consistent, meaning that when I perform a test, and you perform the exact same test, that the results will be the same. This is a very basic foundation for the scientific method, one without which the method would make no sense whatsoever. Basically, science assumes that there is a Truth, and that it is working towards knowing this Truth.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on May 19, 2012, 09:44:35 PM
My point is that we have absolutely no idea what the mechanism that determines these constants is. To say that a life supporting universe is improbable makes numerous unsubstantiated assumptions.

I'm just going to quote this because everyone seems to have ignored it. There's no reason to make a statement on the probability of a life permitting universe one way or the other.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: XJDenton on May 20, 2012, 12:58:16 AM
True.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 20, 2012, 01:11:24 AM
@Jammin: That analogy doesn't really hold. Firstly, given the laws of science as they are (for whatever reason that they are that way), it's even less likely that a rock would form from natural erosion into a highly detailed carving. Second, and more importantly, the reason we identify it as obviously being man-made (but still not 100% certainly) is our experience with sculptures that we do know with 100% certainty are man-made. We see a man made carving, and a very very similar carving, and we associate the two. Whereas there is no comparitor for "the universe". :P

Please forgive me for posting without having read the whole thread, but it seems to me that ariich just hit the nail on the head.  Sometimes people make the mistake of assuming that just because a result of random chance is familiar, it is therefore more improbable than an unfamiliar result.

For instance.  Imagine a set of twenty-six sided dice, each containing one letter of the English alphabet on each facet.  Now imagine that someone rolls eight of these dice, and the result of this dice roll is the English word 'alphabet.'  Obviously, the odds of this outcome are astronomical, right?  But the thing that some people fail to realize is that, 'jzmbleqf' is an equally improbable outcome.  In fact, any eight-letter combination is equally improbable, because they all have equal chances of being rolled in such a random-chance dice situation.  No one combination is truly any more likely than any other one combination.  The reason we think that 'alphabet' is a more improbable result than 'jzmbleqf' is that we attach meaning to the word 'alphabet.' With 'jzmbleqf', we are able to dismiss it as random chance, but with 'alphabet', we see higher meaning simply because it is a word we recognize. 

Don't get me wrong, if an English-speaking man was to roll the dice and get the word 'alphabet', that would be quite a coincidence.  But the coincidence would be that he spoke English, not that the dice roll happened to spell out an English word.  Think about this: what if a Chinese man with no knowledge of English rolled those alphabet dice?  Any result, including the word 'alphabet', would be equally meaningless and incomphrensible to him.  Are we to believe in some kind of fate or destiny just because we happen to have a word which matches a dice roll?

To put it in very simple terms, I'll switch to a regular six-sided numerical die.  When you roll a die, there is a 16.66% chance that the result will be a 5.  Now, say you predict that you will roll a 5.  What are the chances of rolling a 5?  Well, there's still a 16.66% chance.  Your prediction doesn't change the probability of any one outcome.  It only changes your perception of that outcome.  You will feel lucky for the coincidence of guessing correctly, but the truth is, the odds of rolling that 5 were exactly the same no matter what you guessed.  Because the meaning you attach to a number has no bearing on its probability of occuring by random chance. 

The same goes for the universe, albeit on a much larger scale.  There are infinite factors involved in this universe, infinite dice constantly being rolled.  And for the universe to turn out the way it has, yes, that is incredibly unlikely.  But why is it any more unlikely than any other result?  After all, in a random chance situation with infinite possibilities, there is still a guarantee that one of those possibilities will definitely occur.  The only reason we consider this outcome - the universe we have - to be impressive is because we are familiar with it. 

But 'alphabet' isn't any more improbable than 'jzmbleqf', 5 isn't more improbable than 6, and this universe isn't any more improbable than any other universe that might have existed. 

We think it is impossible that life could have come into existence by random chance only because life is familiar.  True, the elements of the universe had to interact in a very specific way to create life, but the odds of the elements interacting that way aren't really any more or less likely than any of the other quadrillions of ways the elements could have interacted.   All outcomes are equally improbable. 

Now, here's the issue.  Going back to my above example, if you were to roll the word 'alphabet' on a set of alphabetical dice a hundred times in a row, then you'd be onto something.  Because after a certain point, you start to get the feeling that those dice are somehow destined to be rolled as that word.  That's why scientists repeat experiments - because they want to make sure that the result is always the same before they go proclaiming their result as scientific fact.  Similarly, if you were to destroy the universe and then have it evolve again the exact same way, then yes, I would be pretty convinced that it is supposed to be this way, that perhaps some greater power designed it this way.  But as it is, I go back to ariich's point: do any of us have an alternate universe with which to compare the one we live in?  Do we say it must be the result of grand design because we have seen some other example of grand design which ended up being very similar?  Or do we just assume grand design because the universe we've got is so complex that we can't comprehend the possibility of random chance?

Sometimes a dice roll is just a dice roll.  And if the results have meaning to someone, well, good for them, but it doesn't automatically prove that some greater being carefully laid out those dice for that person.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 01:21:49 AM
But one of the main problems is that these examples keep getting broken down into relatively simple terms to make them seem like they are more plausible.   They oversimplify what is, in fact, so far beyond difficult that it is a mathematical impossibility.    You're trying to explain something that is mathematically not possible, by giving an illustration of something that IS possible.   That makes it really easy...IF you forget the fact that it is mathematically impossible. 

I'd have to dig up my numbers again...but I want to repeat.   There is a measurable threshold of 10 to the power of some obscene number with so many zeros at the end it would make your head explode to one against before something is considered to be mathematically IMPOSSIBLE.   Life coming about by chance is *far beyond* that measurable threshold...yet people try to say that the very fact that we are here is proof that it DID happen.   Completely cyclical thinking.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 20, 2012, 01:26:04 AM
If there are infinite possibilities, any one of them occuring is mathematically impossible.  But one of them will still occur.  Therefore, something mathematically impossible will occur.  Therefore, mathematical impossibility must be differentiated from true impossibility. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 01:26:36 AM
But one of the main problems is that these examples keep getting broken down into relatively simple terms to make them seem like they are more plausible.   They oversimplify what is, in fact, so far beyond difficult that it is a mathematical impossibility.    You're trying to explain something that is mathematically not possible, by giving an illustration of something that IS possible.   That makes it really easy...IF you forget the fact that it is mathematically impossible. 

I'd have to dig up my numbers again...but I want to repeat.   There is a measurable threshold of 10 to the power of some obscene number with so many zeros at the end it would make your head explode to one against before something is considered to be mathematically IMPOSSIBLE.   Life coming about by chance is *far beyond* that measurable threshold...yet people try to say that the very fact that we are here is proof that it DID happen.   Completely cyclical thinking.

But you're just saying it's impossible, you have to back that up. You not being able to comprehend the odds doesn't make the odds impossible.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 02:09:22 AM
Mathematical impossibility occurs at 10 (50) to 1 against.   That is, 1 with 50 zeros after it.   Anything above that is considered to no longer be possible.   It's not going to happen...not ever. 

The chances of a single protein happening by chance is some primordial soup is 10 (113) to 1 against.    And the chances of the 2000 proteins needed to form a cell occurring all together in the right order by chance.... 10 (40,000) to 1 against.   

This is math...this is science. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 02:13:11 AM
Mathematical impossibility occurs at 10 (50) to 1 against.   That is, 1 with 50 zeros after it.   Anything above that is considered to no longer be possible.   It's not going to happen...not ever. 

The chances of a single protein happening by chance is some primordial soup is 10 (113) to 1 against.    And the chances of the 2000 proteins needed to form a cell occurring all together in the right order by chance.... 10 (40,000) to 1 against.   

This is math...this is science.

That's awesome and all, but as I said....you're going to need to back it up. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you need proof.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 20, 2012, 02:16:57 AM
Mathematical impossibility occurs at 10 (50) to 1 against.   That is, 1 with 50 zeros after it.   Anything above that is considered to no longer be possible.   It's not going to happen...not ever. 

The chances of a single protein happening by chance is some primordial soup is 10 (113) to 1 against.    And the chances of the 2000 proteins needed to form a cell occurring all together in the right order by chance.... 10 (40,000) to 1 against.   

This is math...this is science. 

As I see it, the problem with your 'mathematical impossibility' is that it doesn't allow for situations with a tremendous number of possible outcomes.  The greater the number of possible outcomes, the less the probability of each outcome.  So after a while, if you have enough variables, you will have enough possible outcomes that all of them are mathematically impossible.  My suggestion is that in something as grand as the entire universe, the number of possibilities is infinite or nearly infinite, and therefore any possibility is mathematically impossible.  Yet no matter how mathematically impossible it may be, one of those possibilities must happen.

Let me ask you a theoretical question.  Let's say you were to roll, for instance, a set of 10(1,000,000,000) dice.  Is it not true that any result of that dice roll would fall within the realm of mathematical impossibility?  And is it not true that nevertheless one of those mathematical impossibilities must occur? 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 20, 2012, 02:45:46 AM
Mathematical impossibility occurs at 10 (50) to 1 against.   That is, 1 with 50 zeros after it.   Anything above that is considered to no longer be possible.   It's not going to happen...not ever. 

The chances of a single protein happening by chance is some primordial soup is 10 (113) to 1 against.    And the chances of the 2000 proteins needed to form a cell occurring all together in the right order by chance.... 10 (40,000) to 1 against.   

This is math...this is science. 

Why are you using a human defined term for mathematically impossible to define something on a scale clearly much larger than humans can comprehend?
We're talking about life in the form we know it occuring somewhere in a near infinite universe at any point over bajillions of years. All over space and time there would be mathematically improbable things happening by chance constantly, you've just assigned greater meaning to our concept of life occuring.
In this context I consider it a big leap even from nearly impossible to literally impossible. And it would have to be absolutely literally impossible for the concept of a higher power intervening to have any honest and legitimate place in this discussion imo.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: ariich on May 20, 2012, 03:47:38 AM
Jammindude, I don't think you understand "mathematic impossibility". Impossible is a 0% chance. ANYTHING above that is possible.

Also, I'd like to highlight some very good points from Sigz and Jaffa:

My point is that we have absolutely no idea what the mechanism that determines these constants is. To say that a life supporting universe is improbable makes numerous unsubstantiated assumptions.

I'm just going to quote this because everyone seems to have ignored it. There's no reason to make a statement on the probability of a life permitting universe one way or the other.
I hadn't seen this, but I absolutely agree. People say that if certain constants had been a small amount out then nothing would have formed, and that's fine, but if we want to talk about probability, then we need to know what the range of possible constants was. Without knowing that, any attempts to quantify the probability is merely guesswork, and frankly meaningless in mathematical terms.

For instance.  Imagine a set of twenty-six sided dice, each containing one letter of the English alphabet on each facet.  Now imagine that someone rolls eight of these dice, and the result of this dice roll is the English word 'alphabet.'  Obviously, the odds of this outcome are astronomical, right?  But the thing that some people fail to realize is that, 'jzmbleqf' is an equally improbable outcome.  In fact, any eight-letter combination is equally improbable, because they all have equal chances of being rolled in such a random-chance dice situation.  No one combination is truly any more likely than any other one combination.  The reason we think that 'alphabet' is a more improbable result than 'jzmbleqf' is that we attach meaning to the word 'alphabet.' With 'jzmbleqf', we are able to dismiss it as random chance, but with 'alphabet', we see higher meaning simply because it is a word we recognize.
Such a great point, and one that I was sort of trying to get at when saying that we come across incredibly improbable stuff all the time, but you explained it much better. :tup
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 20, 2012, 04:05:36 AM
Mathematical impossibility occurs at 10 (50) to 1 against.   That is, 1 with 50 zeros after it.   Anything above that is considered to no longer be possible.   It's not going to happen...not ever. 

The chances of a single protein happening by chance is some primordial soup is 10 (113) to 1 against.    And the chances of the 2000 proteins needed to form a cell occurring all together in the right order by chance.... 10 (40,000) to 1 against.   

This is math...this is science.
Source?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 20, 2012, 04:28:36 AM
Mathematical impossibility occurs at 10 (50) to 1 against.   That is, 1 with 50 zeros after it.   Anything above that is considered to no longer be possible.   It's not going to happen...not ever. 

The chances of a single protein happening by chance is some primordial soup is 10 (113) to 1 against.    And the chances of the 2000 proteins needed to form a cell occurring all together in the right order by chance.... 10 (40,000) to 1 against.   

This is math...this is science.


That's math, not science. For starters, in order for this to be science, and for your numbers to be correct, someone would have had to run an impossible amount of trials, finding that proteins could not possibly form due to environmental conditions, and just in one cases, or something, finding those proteins did form. It's probably not even possible to do, as you suggest. However, there are experiments which say, well, the opposite of what you're suggesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment

Quote
After Miller's death in 2007, scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller's original experiments. That is considerably more than what Miller originally reported, and more than the 20 that naturally occur in life.[7] Moreover, some evidence suggests that Earth's original atmosphere might have had a different composition from the gas used in the Miller–Urey experiment. There is abundant evidence of major volcanic eruptions 4 billion years ago, which would have released carbon dioxide, nitrogen, hydrogen sulfide (H2S), and sulfur dioxide (SO2) into the atmosphere. Experiments using these gases in addition to the ones in the original Miller–Urey experiment have produced more diverse molecules.[8]

https://arxiv.org/abs/0904.0402

Quote
Of the twenty amino acids used in proteins, ten were formed in Miller's atmospheric discharge experiments. The two other major proposed sources of prebiotic amino acid synthesis include formation in hydrothermal vents and delivery to Earth via meteorites. We combine observational and experimental data of amino acid frequencies formed by these diverse mechanisms and show that, regardless of the source, these ten early amino acids can be ranked in order of decreasing abundance in prebiotic contexts. This order can be predicted by thermodynamics. The relative abundances of the early amino acids were most likely reflected in the composition of the first proteins at the time the genetic code originated. The remaining amino acids were incorporated into proteins after pathways for their biochemical synthesis evolved. This is consistent with theories of the evolution of the genetic code by stepwise addition of new amino acids. These are hints that key aspects of early biochemistry may be universal.

What that means, is that 10 amino acids are pretty much guaranteed to occur, due to thermodynamics. Hell, we've even detected these amino acids in space.

https://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2003/aug/11/amino-acid-detected-in-space

Quote
Since it was suggested more than 40 years ago, however, increasingly complex organic molecules have been discovered in space. Now astronomers have detected an amino acid - one of the building blocks of proteins - in interstellar dust clouds in our galaxy.

So, I really, really question the number's you've given. Considering the utter inevitability of many amino acids, it really isn't far stretched that proteins would form. Life is a chemical process, and it's one that changes the environment around it. Thermodynamics can be seen as dictating the start of this process, with the other amino acids coming about due to the process itself, via something similiar to evolution.

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: XJDenton on May 20, 2012, 07:50:54 AM
Mathematical impossibility occurs at 10 (50) to 1 against.   That is, 1 with 50 zeros after it.   Anything above that is considered to no longer be possible.   It's not going to happen...not ever. 

The chances of a single protein happening by chance is some primordial soup is 10 (113) to 1 against.    And the chances of the 2000 proteins needed to form a cell occurring all together in the right order by chance.... 10 (40,000) to 1 against.   

This is math...this is science.
Source?

A site of dubious reliability, according to google.

https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=mathematical+impossibility+10^50&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gl=uk
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 09:46:27 AM
Mathematical impossibility occurs at 10 (50) to 1 against.   That is, 1 with 50 zeros after it.   Anything above that is considered to no longer be possible.   It's not going to happen...not ever. 

The chances of a single protein happening by chance is some primordial soup is 10 (113) to 1 against.    And the chances of the 2000 proteins needed to form a cell occurring all together in the right order by chance.... 10 (40,000) to 1 against.   

This is math...this is science. 

As I see it, the problem with your 'mathematical impossibility' is that it doesn't allow for situations with a tremendous number of possible outcomes.  The greater the number of possible outcomes, the less the probability of each outcome.  So after a while, if you have enough variables, you will have enough possible outcomes that all of them are mathematically impossible.  My suggestion is that in something as grand as the entire universe, the number of possibilities is infinite or nearly infinite, and therefore any possibility is mathematically impossible.  Yet no matter how mathematically impossible it may be, one of those possibilities must happen.

Let me ask you a theoretical question.  Let's say you were to roll, for instance, a set of 10(1,000,000,000) dice.  Is it not true that any result of that dice roll would fall within the realm of mathematical impossibility?  And is it not true that nevertheless one of those mathematical impossibilities must occur?

Hold on a sec...let's not get ahead of ourselves.  We just got to the point of a single cell!   We still have to keep it from dying, make sure it splits, eventually forms into complex life forms...etc...etc...etc...

Basically, you can take that die and only ONE of the sides causes anything to happen.   But every time you roll it, lightning must strike.  So first, you have to roll that scenario, and lightning has to strike at that instant.   Now, you have to roll that same scenario again, and if lightning strikes at that moment, you can keep moving forward.   If at any time you roll that outcome and lightning doesn't strike, you have to start all over again from the beginning. 

At the end of the day, even science has acknowledged that this is just not reasonably possible.   That is why the new theory is that life was seeded here by alien life forms....because life just coming about from nothing was just too remote.    So even science is starting to say that there had to be some sort of intelligent cause...they just reject the idea of God and say it was aliens instead.   

Many of you are getting caught up in the mathematical probability...and it's really a McGuffin.   The point REALLY is....what is more reasonable to believe?   That it was strictly by chance, or there was intelligent thought behind it?

But now, this is where someone brings up the "watchmaker" arguments (for and against), and at that point we're just repeating ourselves, so we should all just agree to disagree. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 09:55:17 AM
Many of you are getting caught up in the mathematical probability...and it's really a McGuffin.   The point REALLY is....what is more reasonable to believe?   That it was strictly by chance, or there was intelligent thought behind it?

I don't know how much you know about biology, but looking at both historical records (fossils, dinosaurs) and currently living organisms, how can you use the word "intelligent" in any way or fashion?
I mean, if the design was intelligent, with the ultimate goal to produce humans, why the detour of dinosaurs? Or was the comet divine intervention too? Why all the hominids (Neanderthals etc.) that would die off?
Life on Earth is a massive accumulation of failures and extinctions.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 10:12:41 AM
Many of you are getting caught up in the mathematical probability...and it's really a McGuffin.   The point REALLY is....what is more reasonable to believe?   That it was strictly by chance, or there was intelligent thought behind it?

I don't know how much you know about biology, but looking at both historical records (fossils, dinosaurs) and currently living organisms, how can you use the word "intelligent" in any way or fashion?
I mean, if the design was intelligent, with the ultimate goal to produce humans, why the detour of dinosaurs? Or was the comet divine intervention too? Why all the hominids (Neanderthals etc.) that would die off?
Life on Earth is a massive accumulation of failures and extinctions.

rumborak

I admit my friend that I cannot give a short answer for this.  The only way I know how to answer the first part is to take one of a hundred examples and write an entire essay on each.   

As far as the rest of what you said....I believe that it is simply not possible to absolutely determine what happened several million years ago with complete accuracy.   Scientists today trying to piece together any records from the ancient past are exactly like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z2vU8M6CYI
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 10:26:23 AM
Come on dude. We know damn well what happened to all the Neanderthals and Stegosauruses. Don't hide behind a non-existing "uncertainty" of records.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 10:51:18 AM
There's another interesting argument to be made: If human evolution got directed towards its current state, i.e. towards a being that can comprehend divinity enough to worship it .... why do we have hunter-gatherer bodies? Our bodies are incredibly ill-suited for the lifestyle that gave rise to Abrahamic religions. Or argued the other way around, if you take our bodies as guidance, our ideal lifestyle was in a time when there was no Christianity or other religions.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 11:10:52 AM
Our backgrounds are coming from *completely* different directions.    I don't believe there was ever a time in human history where there wasn't religion.   I do believe that Adam was created intelligently from the beginning.    As a matter of fact, far more intelligent than any of us could possibly comprehend...before he rebelled.   Abel was the first religious martyr....killed simply because he was trying to do the right thing, and in the process was making his brother look bad. 

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 20, 2012, 11:15:36 AM
If there are infinite possibilities, any one of them occuring is mathematically impossible.

Just wondering but does this mean that there is mathematically a 100% chance that an outcome other than a singled out outcome will occur?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 11:31:53 AM
Our backgrounds are coming from *completely* different directions.    I don't believe there was ever a time in human history where there wasn't religion.   I do believe that Adam was created intelligently from the beginning.    As a matter of fact, far more intelligent than any of us could possibly comprehend...before he rebelled.   Abel was the first religious martyr....killed simply because he was trying to do the right thing, and in the process was making his brother look bad. 

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.
I'm confused. Are you arguing for creationism, or for intelligent design?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: kári on May 20, 2012, 11:46:48 AM
If there are infinite possibilities, any one of them occuring is mathematically impossible.

Just wondering but does this mean that there is mathematically a 100% chance that an outcome other than a singled out outcome will occur?
Yes. For a continuous distribution (so not a discrete one like dice where the outcome is either 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, but one with an infinite amount of outcomes) the chance of any single outcome is 0.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 11:53:42 AM
Our backgrounds are coming from *completely* different directions.    I don't believe there was ever a time in human history where there wasn't religion.   I do believe that Adam was created intelligently from the beginning.    As a matter of fact, far more intelligent than any of us could possibly comprehend...before he rebelled.   Abel was the first religious martyr....killed simply because he was trying to do the right thing, and in the process was making his brother look bad. 

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.
I'm confused. Are you arguing for creationism, or for intelligent design?

I don't attach myself to either "group" strictly.    Creationism teaches that the earth was created in six literal days.  The Bible doesn't teach that, so those people are just way out in left field.   

ID one of those things where the actual term itself is *incredibly* broad.   (basically, if you believe life had any intelligent cause, you believe in ID...whether it be aliens or God)  But most people tend to pigeonhole anyone who uses the term ID as a creationist anyway, so it's become just another nasty term.

I believe that The Bible's account of creation is extremely vague, and that too many humans who claim to be experts have smeared the Bible's reputation by misrepresenting what it says.  (like the old wives tale that the Bible teaches that the earth was created in six literal 24 hour days....it got started by ignorant people who didn't do any digging and made a bunch of assumptions.  Pretty soon everyone thinks that's what the Bible says when it doesn't.   We had this debate in another thread).     But I do think that what it DOES say is accurate....just not very detailed.   I mean, let's face it....the first countless millions of years of earth's creation are summed up in 2 chapters that take up just a couple of pages, and the first 1600+ years of human history (that's 7 times longer than the USA has been a country) is over and done with by chapter 10.    Not much detail at all.      I trust what it does say, I trust science to fill the gaps that The Bible doesn't say (which is quite a bit) and I reject where science directly calls the Bible wrong.   But I think theology is even worse.  Theology has done more things to sour people toward the Bible than anything science is perceived to have done.   Theology is one of the biggest crocks in the history of mankind.   I do trust science FAR *FAR* more than the snake oil people in theology.   But I place the Bible above all.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 11:57:28 AM
Our backgrounds are coming from *completely* different directions.    I don't believe there was ever a time in human history where there wasn't religion.   I do believe that Adam was created intelligently from the beginning.    As a matter of fact, far more intelligent than any of us could possibly comprehend...before he rebelled.   Abel was the first religious martyr....killed simply because he was trying to do the right thing, and in the process was making his brother look bad. 

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

If you are that fundamentalist, yeah, we should probably leave it at that.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 20, 2012, 12:08:26 PM
So, are we just gonna ignore my post about the for sure presence of most of the amino acids necessary for life? Ya know, the one that's actually scientific, and not a series of base assumptions with no proof behind them?

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 12:18:39 PM
So, are we just gonna ignore my post about the for sure presence of most of the amino acids necessary for life? Ya know, the one that's actually scientific, and not a series of base assumptions with no proof behind them?

It's not a matter of the amino acids existing...it's arranging the correct ones in the correct order.   It's like having a huge, *thoroughly mixed* pile of an equal amount of red and white beans...also, there are over a hundred different varieties of beans.    If you plunged a scoop into that pile, what do you think you'd get?  In order to get the correct "beans" to make up a single protein, you'd have to scoop up ONLY red ones...no white ones at all.   On top of that, you'd have to have only 20 specific varies of the red beans, and they would have to be arranged a certain way inside the scoop.   Any variation whatsoever, and the protein won't function properly.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 12:20:48 PM
So, are we just gonna ignore my post about the for sure presence of most of the amino acids necessary for life? Ya know, the one that's actually scientific, and not a series of base assumptions with no proof behind them?

It's not a matter of the amino acids existing...it's arranging the correct ones in the correct order.   It's like having a huge, *thoroughly mixed* pile of an equal amount of red and white beans...also, there are over a hundred different varieties of beans.    If you plunged a scoop into that pile, what do you think you'd get?  In order to get the correct "beans" to make up a single protein, you'd have to scoop up ONLY red ones...no white ones at all.   On top of that, you'd have to have only 20 specific varies of the red beans, and they would have to be arranged a certain way inside the scoop.   Any variation whatsoever, and the protein won't function properly.


And given the billions of years they had, the amino acids chances of being arranged the way they did is pretty fine I'd say.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 12:21:53 PM
Yikes, when is the "irreducible complexity" argument every going to die out? This isn't the 1950s anymore.

EDIT: Additionally, it is horrendously biologically ignorant to say that a protein will stop working once a single amino acid is changed. There are shitloads of SNPs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-nucleotide_polymorphism) that result in no changed behavior, or very little. Proteins are nowhere near those perfect edifices as you make them out to be.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 20, 2012, 12:43:53 PM
If there are infinite possibilities, any one of them occuring is mathematically impossible.

Just wondering but does this mean that there is mathematically a 100% chance that an outcome other than a singled out outcome will occur?

That'd be a correct assessment, yes.  Or, at least, that is my understanding of jammindude's logic. 

Many of you are getting caught up in the mathematical probability...and it's really a McGuffin.   The point REALLY is....what is more reasonable to believe?   That it was strictly by chance, or there was intelligent thought behind it?

If that is really the point, then maybe you should stop dwelling on mathematical probability.  I was only dwelling on it because you were. 

As for your new question, of which is more reasonable to believe... well.  'Reasonable' is subjective.  That's not really an arguable point.  For me, I am capable of observing random chance, but I am not capable of observing a greater being planning a universe based on intelligent design.  So for me, it is more reasonable to believe in what I can observe.  But again, this is subjective.  I was never trying to deny you your right to believe what you believe; I was only trying to refute your assertion that random chance is an impossible explanation for life. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 12:49:02 PM
Our backgrounds are coming from *completely* different directions.    I don't believe there was ever a time in human history where there wasn't religion.   I do believe that Adam was created intelligently from the beginning.    As a matter of fact, far more intelligent than any of us could possibly comprehend...before he rebelled.   Abel was the first religious martyr....killed simply because he was trying to do the right thing, and in the process was making his brother look bad. 

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.
I'm confused. Are you arguing for creationism, or for intelligent design?

I don't attach myself to either "group" strictly.    Creationism teaches that the earth was created in six literal days.  The Bible doesn't teach that, so those people are just way out in left field.

It does teach that, actually.

The thing is that if you're going to support Intelligent Design by saying that evolution was guided by a greater force, you can't also talk about Adam and Cain and Abel as if they were actual people. There's no historical record of their existence.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 12:57:11 PM
Our backgrounds are coming from *completely* different directions.    I don't believe there was ever a time in human history where there wasn't religion.   I do believe that Adam was created intelligently from the beginning.    As a matter of fact, far more intelligent than any of us could possibly comprehend...before he rebelled.   Abel was the first religious martyr....killed simply because he was trying to do the right thing, and in the process was making his brother look bad. 

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.
I'm confused. Are you arguing for creationism, or for intelligent design?

I don't attach myself to either "group" strictly.    Creationism teaches that the earth was created in six literal days.  The Bible doesn't teach that, so those people are just way out in left field.

It does teach that, actually.



Umm...I'm sorry.  No...it doesn't.    Deeper research into the Bible itself shows very plainly that the creative days were NOT 24 hour days.   It doesn't say how long they were....they could have been any length of time...possibly even millions of years long from a human viewpoint. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 01:04:49 PM
This has been discussed on this board before. Although the Hebrew word "yom" can potentially have many meanings, it means "24-hour day" in all of the other places in The Bible where it's used.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 20, 2012, 01:05:13 PM
So, are we just gonna ignore my post about the for sure presence of most of the amino acids necessary for life? Ya know, the one that's actually scientific, and not a series of base assumptions with no proof behind them?

It's not a matter of the amino acids existing...it's arranging the correct ones in the correct order.   It's like having a huge, *thoroughly mixed* pile of an equal amount of red and white beans...also, there are over a hundred different varieties of beans.    If you plunged a scoop into that pile, what do you think you'd get?  In order to get the correct "beans" to make up a single protein, you'd have to scoop up ONLY red ones...no white ones at all.   On top of that, you'd have to have only 20 specific varies of the red beans, and they would have to be arranged a certain way inside the scoop.   Any variation whatsoever, and the protein won't function properly.

As rumborak pointed out, with amino acids being as commonplace as they are, then giving something time and a lot of trials means it's going to happen, at some point.

There's also the theory regarding interplanetary/galaxy seeding, as that article mentioned. If that is true, then all those "lucky" occurrences wouldn't even have to happen on Earth, they would've just had to of happened sometime in the previous, what, 15 billion years or whatnot since we posit the universe began?

By the way, pointing to the number of combinations possible in a protein, like you're doing, doesn't say anything about the probability of those proteins coming forming. Chemistry could easily favor amino acids forming certain proteins, making their likelihood even that much more likely.

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 01:11:57 PM
This has been discussed on this board before. Although the Hebrew word "yom" can potentially have many meanings, it means "24-hour day" in all of the other places in The Bible where it's used.

Would that happen to include Gen 2:4...where all six days are referred to collectively as a "day"?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 01:15:10 PM
This has been discussed on this board before. Although the Hebrew word "yom" can potentially have many meanings, it means "24-hour day" in all of the other places in The Bible where it's used.

Would that happen to include Gen 2:4...where all six days are referred to collectively as a "day"?
Sorry, I meant that whenever "yom" is used with a number, it means 24-hour day.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 01:15:54 PM
This has been discussed on this board before. Although the Hebrew word "yom" can potentially have many meanings, it means "24-hour day" in all of the other places in The Bible where it's used.

Would that happen to include Gen 2:4...where all six days are referred to collectively as a "day"?

It's the same thing with english in this case. If someone says "this happened 3 days ago" it means it happened 3 days ago, not 6 billions years. However someone could also say "back in my day", which clearly doesn't mean "back in my 24 hours". Having day mean a period of time in the past doesn't hint that it could mean billions of years either. Considering hebrew has words for years, generations, centuries etc.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 01:19:42 PM
This has been discussed on this board before. Although the Hebrew word "yom" can potentially have many meanings, it means "24-hour day" in all of the other places in The Bible where it's used.

Would that happen to include Gen 2:4...where all six days are referred to collectively as a "day"?
Sorry, I meant that whenever "yom" is used with a number, it means 24-hour day.

This is a good point, the days are in fact numbered. Using the concept of days isn't necessary to display a sequence of events (as the bible doesn't need them other places to show a sequence of events). Numbered days are days, not unspecified periods of time.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 01:21:41 PM
At the end of the (24-hour) day, don't doubt the translators. Bible translators know what they're doing. If every major Bible translation decided that "day" was the most fitting term, then we can pretty much rest assured that that's what the author meant.

If you're still not convinced, Google "genesis 24 hour day" and check out the results. The vast majority are in agreement about this issue, and the ones that aren't are mostly ridiculously awful, like this one: https://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/genesis.html
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 01:21:57 PM
This has been discussed on this board before. Although the Hebrew word "yom" can potentially have many meanings, it means "24-hour day" in all of the other places in The Bible where it's used.

Would that happen to include Gen 2:4...where all six days are referred to collectively as a "day"?

It's the same thing with english in this case. If someone says "this happened 3 days ago" it means it happened 3 days ago, not 6 billions years. However someone could also say "back in my day", which clearly doesn't mean "back in my 24 hours". Having day mean a period of time in the past doesn't hint that it could mean billions of years either. Considering hebrew has words for years, generations, centuries etc.

2 Pet 3:8

"one day with the Lord [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;"

And it seems to me by context alone that this not a literal measurable 1000 years to the day....but rather gives us a perspective that the way God counts days is NOTHING like the way we count days.

And I know I have people who disagree with me....but Hebrews 4:1-11, God shows us that his day of rest is still going on right now (6000 plus years after it started) and that it still remains for people who want to be reconciled to God to enter into his rest.... The writer even *specifically* quotes Genesis in these verses.  This isn't a stretch.     So if we are STILL IN the seventh day...there's no telling how long the first 6 were.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 01:24:20 PM
And don't get me started on theology.   I'm really interested in science....but theology is about as bad as "faith healers" and snake charmers in my book.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 01:28:45 PM
Paul didn't write Genesis, nor did he write in Hebrew. I have no reason to assume his writing style should shed any light what so ever on Genesis.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 01:30:22 PM
A) That verse in Peter didn't come around till a few thousand years after Genesis. With that in mind, it's clear that the author was leading everyone to believe that the days were 24-hour days, and at the end of the day Genesis was written so that its readers could comprehend it, right?

B) Even if we allow the possibility that the days in Genesis were god-days (and therefore thousands of years long), the Bible still messed up the order of the development of everything in the universe. The consolation that the days might be more than 24 hours long doesn't necessarily make Genesis scientifically accurate.

C) This is very, very beside the point. Here's the point:

The thing is that if you're going to support Intelligent Design by saying that evolution was guided by a greater force, you can't also talk about Adam and Cain and Abel as if they were actual people. There's no historical record of their existence.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 01:40:02 PM
Paul didn't write Genesis, nor did he write in Hebrew. I have no reason to assume his writing style should shed any light what so ever on Genesis.

"All Scripture is inspired of God" - 2 Tim 3:16
"Your word is truth" - Jesus to his father at John 17:17
"...men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." - 2 Pet 1:21

I believe the Bible is God's Word....not men's. 

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 01:42:01 PM
I don't know how old you are, but prepare yourself for a lifetime of being at odds with facts.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 20, 2012, 01:46:00 PM
Paul didn't write Genesis, nor did he write in Hebrew. I have no reason to assume his writing style should shed any light what so ever on Genesis.

"All Scripture is inspired of God" - 2 Tim 3:16
"Your word is truth" - Jesus to his father at John 17:17
"...men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." - 2 Pet 1:21

I believe the Bible is God's Word....not men's.

Then why did God get so many things wrong? He apparently felt he got the first attempt so horribly wrong, that he had to go and write another one to fix the errors of the first.

And how do you arbitrarily stop this chain at the New Testament? What reasons do you have for supporting the idea that the Koran isn't God's Word? I assume you would say that the Koran is the work of a "false prophet," cause otherwise you'd be a Muslim and not a Christian.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 01:47:09 PM
How did a thread about the end times become a thread about arguments from design?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 01:49:08 PM
H, that is an excellent question. The equation seems to be as such:

Thread about something + Placement in P/R = Thread about something else
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 01:49:42 PM
How did a thread about the end times become a thread about arguments from design?


Ummmmmm...........................Ron Paul?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 01:57:50 PM
I don't know how old you are, but prepare yourself for a lifetime of being at odds with facts.

rumborak

I'm used to this.   I show The Bible supports facts (and *does not* teach what theology claims it does) and scientists hate me.   I show theologists from their own book how The Bible does not teach what *they* have been saying it does, and the theologists hate me. 

It's to be expected.  ;D
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 01:58:21 PM
Except you have done neither of those things.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 20, 2012, 01:58:31 PM
There's another interesting argument to be made: If human evolution got directed towards its current state, i.e. towards a being that can comprehend divinity enough to worship it .... why do we have hunter-gatherer bodies? Our bodies are incredibly ill-suited for the lifestyle that gave rise to Abrahamic religions. Or argued the other way around, if you take our bodies as guidance, our ideal lifestyle was in a time when there was no Christianity or other religions.

rumborak

What does that mean? I'm not arguing, I actually have no idea what that means biologically speaking.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 01:59:52 PM
Humans are flawed. Therefore God doesn't exist. That's what it means.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 02:00:28 PM
Well, this has nothing to do with "scientists". You will be at odds with almost everybody outside of religious fundamentalist circles.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 02:00:42 PM
Humans are flawed. Therefore God doesn't exist. That's what it means.

I highly doubt Rumbys arguments sound anything like that.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 20, 2012, 02:02:43 PM
Humans are flawed. Therefore God doesn't exist. That's what it means.

I highly doubt Rumbys arguments sound anything like that.

Yes, I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth.

I don't know how old you are, but prepare yourself for a lifetime of being at odds with facts.

rumborak

I'm used to this.   I show The Bible supports facts (and *does not* teach what theology claims it does) and scientists hate me.   I show theologists from their own book how The Bible does not teach what *they* have been saying it does, and the theologists hate me. 

It's to be expected.  ;D

You sound like those internet ads I get on sidebars all the time:

(https://humour101.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/dermatologists-hate-her.png)

(https://content.eaglepub.com/images/7578/Antique-Paul-Pimsleur-Email-1a.jpg)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 02:04:59 PM
Science is not the enemy, jammindude. Scientists aren't intentional adversaries of religion, seeking to discover facts that will disprove the Bible.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 02:06:54 PM
One might argue the writers of Genesis were scientists in a way that they were trying to collect their existing information and put it into a coherent story. It's just that they didn't have a lot of data to go with.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 20, 2012, 02:07:20 PM
Science is not the enemy, jammindude. Scientists aren't intentional adversaries of religion, seeking to discover facts that will disprove the Bible.

In fairness, some of them actually do have that agenda.  But, not all of them. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 02:09:34 PM
One might argue the writers of Genesis were scientists in a way that they were trying to collect their existing information and put it into a coherent story. It's just that they didn't have a lot of data to go with.

rumborak

Maybe. In my opinion, Gen 1 is more of a theological narrative that answers "why?" questions. It's not interested in being a fact-after-fact lab manual of the creation of the universe.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 02:09:42 PM
Well, this has nothing to do with "scientists". You will be at odds with almost everybody outside of religious fundamentalist circles.

rumborak

Actually... fundamentalists don't really like to look into their Bible's either.   They believe what they want to believe, and they listen to men tell them what to believe instead of looking into God's Word.   They buy into theology...which is almost always wrong. 

@H

Don't know where that came from.   I've been saying all along that science is more right than theology is.   Theology is the adversary of The Bible.   And other than a small handful of points (some admittedly more glaring than others) science is MUCH more in agreement with what the Bible says.    Science gets more right than theology does, anyway.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 02:10:42 PM
One might argue the writers of Genesis were scientists in a way that they were trying to collect their existing information and put it into a coherent story. It's just that they didn't have a lot of data to go with.

rumborak

Maybe. In my opinion, Gen 1 is more of a theological narrative that answers "why?" questions. It's not interested in being a fact-after-fact lab manual of the creation of the universe.


 :tup

Absolutely THIS!  Thank you, H.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 02:11:20 PM
Science is not the enemy, jammindude. Scientists aren't intentional adversaries of religion, seeking to discover facts that will disprove the Bible.

In fairness, some of them actually do have that agenda.  But, not all of them. 

The "scientists" with that kind of agenda you can count on one hand. The vast majority just plain do their work, collect data, and form hypotheses. For most of them religion isn't even on the radar up until the point where they get harrassed or politically strong-armed by religious people who disagree with their conclusions.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 02:13:06 PM
One might argue the writers of Genesis were scientists in a way that they were trying to collect their existing information and put it into a coherent story. It's just that they didn't have a lot of data to go with.

rumborak

Maybe. In my opinion, Gen 1 is more of a theological narrative that answers "why?" questions. It's not interested in being a fact-after-fact lab manual of the creation of the universe.

Well that's how we view science, but 4,000 years ago science wasn't very related to what we have now. I have a feeling that they did the best they could to explain existence, and it took the form of religious books like Genesis. Keep in mind, the idea that demons were inside us causing illness was a scientific revolution thousands of years after Genesis was written.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 02:14:30 PM
And other than a small handful of points (some admittedly more glaring than others) science is MUCH more in agreement with what the Bible says.
Again, this is not so.

You have to look at the Bible and science separately. They don't have anything to do with each other, as The Bible was written thousands of years before modern science. It wasn't until after the dark ages that we finally started making some actual progress in the fields of astronomy and biological science; The Bible was written by people who didn't understand these concepts, and God seems to have neglected to share with these prophets any concrete information about how they work.

Regardless of how much of God's truth is contained in The Bible, don't expect to find anything scientifically accurate in it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 20, 2012, 02:18:02 PM
Im not sure how one can agree that genesis is a theological narrative, and that it isnt a factual manual....with metaphors if you will....and then say a super intelligent Adam actually existed.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 02:21:24 PM
While I'm pretty sure that life came about through evolution, and that Gen 1 isn't a list of literal statements (and ought not to be read as such), I still scratch my head when it comes to Adam and Eve. In my mind, it's totally possible that God came down to a primate one day and gave him a soul, calling him "Adam". But it's also totally possible that Adam is a figurative character. I'm inclined to the first idea, though.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 20, 2012, 02:25:46 PM
Isnt it very difficult, as a Christian, to pick and choose wihich elements of genesis to believe as fact, and which as metaphor/story/etc?
I would think that if you were to base your spiritual life on a book, you would need it to have some consistency in how you interpret it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 02:28:45 PM
n my mind, it's totally possible that God came down to a primate one day and gave him a soul, calling him "Adam". But it's also totally possible that Adam is a figurative character. I'm inclined to the first idea, though.
Genesis 2 says quite clearly that Adam was created "from dust"; i.e. that he was created by God and had no primate father.

If you're going to assume that Adam is an actual person, you also have to deal with a whole mess of other issues, like how Eve was created as a "helper" and came from Adam's rib.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 02:30:21 PM
Isnt it very difficult, as a Christian, to pick and choose wihich elements of genesis to believe as fact, and which as metaphor/story/etc?
I would think that if you were to base your spiritual life on a book, you would need it to have some consistency in how you interpret it.
Yeah. The way I try to do it is just recognize the genre of any given book/passage, and read it as such. Revelation, for instance, is apocalyptic and I take everything as a metaphor. Proverbs is a book of general wisdom that applies to everyday life, but it's not a book of history. Luke is written as a fact-for-fact account of Jesus' life. Genesis seems to be a mixture of a couple genres. So interpretation can be difficult.

I guess my "neutral" interpretation style is to take it literally unless I have good reason not to.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 02:34:22 PM
Genesis 2 says quite clearly that Adam was created "from dust"; i.e. that he was created by God and had no primate father.

If you're going to assume that Adam is an actual person, you also have to deal with a whole mess of other issues, like how Eve was created as a "helper" and came from Adam's rib.
I think Adam's being created from dust is consistent with evolution. I don't know if it has to be an instantaneous reaction with Adam popping out as a product. I think the statement has theological significance, mostly.

Like I said, I don't really know how to interpret Gen 2. It's one of the hardest passages to figure out, for me. It might be 100% unhistorical. Or it might be partially unhistorical. But that's okay...I think the important thing is that it is 100% theological no matter how you look at it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 20, 2012, 02:35:26 PM
Isnt it very difficult, as a Christian, to pick and choose wihich elements of genesis to believe as fact, and which as metaphor/story/etc?
I would think that if you were to base your spiritual life on a book, you would need it to have some consistency in how you interpret it.
Yeah. The way I try to do it is just recognize the genre of any given book/passage, and read it as such. Revelation, for instance, is apocalyptic and I take everything as a metaphor. Proverbs is a book of general wisdom that applies to everyday life, but it's not a book of history. Luke is written as a fact-for-fact account of Jesus' life. Genesis seems to be a mixture of a couple genres. So interpretation can be difficult.

I guess my "neutral" interpretation style is to take it literally unless I have good reason not to.

I can certianly understand using different interpretations of style between books of the bible...I was more speaking of using different interpretation styles within one book.  Like saying a day doesnt mean a a literal day, but adam literally existing.  I personally dont see how you can have it both ways.  JMO
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 02:37:10 PM
Isnt it very difficult, as a Christian, to pick and choose wihich elements of genesis to believe as fact, and which as metaphor/story/etc?
I would think that if you were to base your spiritual life on a book, you would need it to have some consistency in how you interpret it.
Yeah. The way I try to do it is just recognize the genre of any given book/passage, and read it as such. Revelation, for instance, is apocalyptic and I take everything as a metaphor. Proverbs is a book of general wisdom that applies to everyday life, but it's not a book of history. Luke is written as a fact-for-fact account of Jesus' life. Genesis seems to be a mixture of a couple genres. So interpretation can be difficult.

I guess my "neutral" interpretation style is to take it literally unless I have good reason not to.

I can certianly understand using different interpretations of style between books of the bible...I was more speaking of using different interpretation styles within one book.  Like saying a day doesnt mean a a literal day, but adam literally existing.  I dont see how you can have it both ways.
I don't know if Genesis was written in one sitting or even by one author - so I don't think it's safe to force a single genre upon it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 02:40:36 PM
And other than a small handful of points (some admittedly more glaring than others) science is MUCH more in agreement with what the Bible says.
Again, this is not so.

You have to look at the Bible and science separately. They don't have anything to do with each other, as The Bible was written thousands of years before modern science. It wasn't until after the dark ages that we finally started making some actual progress in the fields of astronomy and biological science; The Bible was written by people who didn't understand these concepts, and God seems to have neglected to share with these prophets any concrete information about how they work.

Regardless of how much of God's truth is contained in The Bible, don't expect to find anything scientifically accurate in it.

Actually...one of the things that changed my mind *was* it's scientific accuracy...
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 02:43:12 PM
Cool. Show it to me. (Stay out of Genesis 1, because we've already decided that it doesn't work even allowing for days that are thousands of years long.)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 02:44:35 PM
Of the top of my head, I can't think of any scientific claims that the Bible makes. Descriptions of the universe are usually highly metaphoric. Aside from "God created the universe" and "man has a soul", I don't really know what else the Bible says about modern science. Most of the Bible's truths are inaccessible to scientists anyway. How are scientists supposed to prove or disprove an individual's standing with God, for example? Empirically, how are you supposed to know, for example, whether you have forgiveness of sins?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 20, 2012, 02:46:59 PM
Of the top of my head, I can't think of any scientific claims that the Bible makes.
That's what I said; The Bible has nothing whatsoever to do with science, and it would be ludicrous to look to The Bible for any scientific truths.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 02:54:35 PM
Cool. Show it to me. (Stay out of Genesis 1, because we've already decided that it doesn't work even allowing for days that are thousands of years long.)

I don't mind...but isn't this just going to degrade into a "that's not what it means" or "anyone could have said that" or "that's not a stretch" etc...etc...etc???

I never said the Bible was a scientific textbook.  It never preaches science.  But where it *does* incidentally address scientific issues...it's been accurate.

At a time when everyone thought the earth was either being held up on the back of either a god, or a giant sea turtle or some such...  Job stated that God was "hanging the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).    Job could not have known this...but it is accurate.   Another example is Isaiah.   The idea of the earth being round was not a popular thought at the time...but Isaiah 40:22 speaks of the one who is "dwelling above the circle of the earth."  (and the Hebrew word here translated "circle" is "chugh" which conveys the idea of a sphere.)   

A couple of examples anyway. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: eric42434224 on May 20, 2012, 02:57:55 PM
If you want those to be scientifically accurate, and it is a stretch, you are going to have to acknowledge the many instances where the bible is 100% scientifically wrong.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 20, 2012, 03:20:09 PM
Cool. Show it to me. (Stay out of Genesis 1, because we've already decided that it doesn't work even allowing for days that are thousands of years long.)

I don't mind...but isn't this just going to degrade into a "that's not what it means" or "anyone could have said that" or "that's not a stretch" etc...etc...etc???

I never said the Bible was a scientific textbook.  It never preaches science.  But where it *does* incidentally address scientific issues...it's been accurate.

At a time when everyone thought the earth was either being held up on the back of either a god, or a giant sea turtle or some such...  Job stated that God was "hanging the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).    Job could not have known this...but it is accurate.   Another example is Isaiah.   The idea of the earth being round was not a popular thought at the time...but Isaiah 40:22 speaks of the one who is "dwelling above the circle of the earth."  (and the Hebrew word here translated "circle" is "chugh" which conveys the idea of a sphere.)   

A couple of examples anyway.

Except there were many people, especially scholars at the time, who realized the Earth was a sphere, had sound arguments for it, and one mathematician had even accurately calculated the diameter of the Earth. Seeing as how the people who wrote the Bible were scholars, they would have to of been to know how to write, it's very reasonable to imagine they were aware of these scholarly works.

You're confusing what the common people thought at the time, with what educated people thought. THey are not the same, and the ignorance of the common people does not imply the ignorance of the educated people.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 03:23:33 PM
I still don't understand how the act of believing things that are known to be factually wrong makes you a person more eligible of eternal reward. What kind of God is this?
And, isn't it the same kind of logic that makes other people strap explosives around their body, in that they're doing the wrong thing for a higher cause?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 03:25:53 PM
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 03:26:44 PM
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.

Statements like this aren't helping anyone or anything.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 20, 2012, 03:27:03 PM
No, but Christians who are wrong about some things but still cling to the idea that they are right about everything don't paint a very good picture of Christianity. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 03:27:10 PM
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.

Does that make it easier for you?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 03:28:59 PM
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.

Statements like this aren't helping anyone or anything.
Redirect this to Rumborak. It seems like he can't help but ask questions that don't have much to do with the thread. There's a small part of me that thinks he's baiting - it's possible, but nahhh, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. :)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Scheavo on May 20, 2012, 03:43:33 PM
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.

Statements like this aren't helping anyone or anything.
Redirect this to Rumborak. It seems like he can't help but ask questions that don't have much to do with the thread. There's a small part of me that thinks he's baiting - it's possible, but nahhh, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. :)


When Christians claim that the Bible is unering Truth, than the fact that the Bible contains errs and unTruths is in direct opposition to that proposal.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 03:51:37 PM
Are we really talking about that right now?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 20, 2012, 03:52:17 PM
I still don't understand how the act of believing things that are known to be factually wrong makes you a person more eligible of eternal reward. What kind of God is this?
And, isn't it the same kind of logic that makes other people strap explosives around their body, in that they're doing the wrong thing for a higher cause?

rumborak

I'm 42 and I've been on both sides of the fence.   I've never seen this.   I have seen theologies interpretation (imperfect men reading in what's not there) be wrong...and I have seen science make unproven claims of truth.   In both cases, the Bible is not the one that's wrong.   But I have seen *both* sides make mistakes, whereas the Bible itself was right all along. 

In almost every case where the Bible seems wrong, it is usually the problem with the English translation of a single word.   It doesn't take a lot of research to clear up the confusion...but most people just jump to conclusions, or don't want to know what the real answer is. 

And anyone who does any harm to another person explicitly ignores the Son of God's direct command to love one another.   That's not hard to figure out.   He who takes up the sword will perish by the sword.   Pretty black and white.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Rathma on May 20, 2012, 04:32:18 PM
Don't know where that came from.   I've been saying all along that science is more right than theology is.   Theology is the adversary of The Bible.   And other than a small handful of points (some admittedly more glaring than others) science is MUCH more in agreement with what the Bible says.    Science gets more right than theology does, anyway.

Wtf is this "theology" you keep referring to? Every human being has their own theology. If you're referring to a specific school of theology then you should clarify yourself.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 20, 2012, 04:52:58 PM
I'm 42 and I've been on both sides of the fence.   I've never seen this.   I have seen theologies interpretation (imperfect men reading in what's not there) be wrong...and I have seen science make unproven claims of truth.   In both cases, the Bible is not the one that's wrong.   But I have seen *both* sides make mistakes, whereas the Bible itself was right all along. 

In almost every case where the Bible seems wrong, it is usually the problem with the English translation of a single word.   It doesn't take a lot of research to clear up the confusion...but most people just jump to conclusions, or don't want to know what the real answer is. 

We've had these discussions before, but for almost all of them the general linguists' consensus was that the Bible was indeed referring to the erroneous notion at hand.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Super Dude on May 20, 2012, 10:45:06 PM
Y'know what? Screw environmentalism, we're better off being fucked by the planet anyway. End times near? Bring 'em on!
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 20, 2012, 10:49:44 PM
Y'know what? Screw environmentalism, we're better off being fucked by the planet anyway. End times near? Bring 'em on!

Welcome to every year for the past 2000 years.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2012, 04:59:18 PM
We're witnessing a grand change, a shift from worlds. Those who understand will know what to do and will survive.

That's what I believe is happening. since the world is alive, it's basically just immunizing itself from the bad bacteria that's causing it's sickness.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 26, 2012, 06:40:11 PM
Don't know where that came from.   I've been saying all along that science is more right than theology is.   Theology is the adversary of The Bible.   And other than a small handful of points (some admittedly more glaring than others) science is MUCH more in agreement with what the Bible says.    Science gets more right than theology does, anyway.

Wtf is this "theology" you keep referring to? Every human being has their own theology. If you're referring to a specific school of theology then you should clarify yourself.

Sorry Rathma...I missed this, and I should have answered. 

I believe that there should be no personal interpretation of scripture.   If a scripture needs to be clarified, it can only be clarified by other scriptures....not personal philosophy or theology.   Let God's Word speak for itself....don't read anything into it *except* within the context of other scriptures.    If a phrase is unclear, research the original language word(s) in question.     Some clarification of what words or phrases meant in the social context of the time they were written...but personal ideas or slants about these should be minimal or non-existent.     IMO, God speaks for himself through his word, and we have no right to inject our own ideas into what is written. 

In short...LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE.

Any mixture with Greek philosophy (which tainted "Christian" teachings after the death of the apostles) should be completely and wholeheartedly rejected.    And that is mostly what modern theology teaches.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 26, 2012, 06:59:21 PM
Dude, you know I love you but you interpret scripture your own way all the time. Everyone does............well everyone who cares about scripture.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 12:16:27 AM
Is it just me?  Or is half my message crossed out?   If so, why? 

Also, I make no claims to what scripture says without having it backed up by other scriptures. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 12:18:52 AM
Is it just me?  Or is half my message crossed out?   If so, why?   
Because you put a strikeout tag in the middle of it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 12:19:24 AM
Is it just me?  Or is half my message crossed out?   If so, why? 

Also, I make no claims to what scripture says without having it backed up by other scriptures.

Yea, I see it mostly crossed out too. Not sure why. Hm.


And yea, you have made claims like "Well obviously it means this" and so forth. I am wayyyy too tired to search through your old posts to dig it up, but I'm sure someone else could if they felt the need.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 12:37:56 AM
Is it just me?  Or is half my message crossed out?   If so, why?   
Because you put a strikeout tag in the middle of it.

I clicked modify to see if there were any tags at all and I don't see any. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 12:38:52 AM
Don't know where that came from.   I've been saying all along that science is more right than theology is.   Theology is the adversary of The Bible.   And other than a small handful of points (some admittedly more glaring than others) science is MUCH more in agreement with what the Bible says.    Science gets more right than theology does, anyway.

Wtf is this "theology" you keep referring to? Every human being has their own theology. If you're referring to a specific school of theology then you should clarify yourself.

Sorry Rathma...I missed this, and I should have answered. 

I believe that there should be no personal interpretation of scripture.   If a scripture needs to be clarified, it can only be clarified by other scriptures....not personal philosophy or theology.   Let God's Word speak for itself....don't read anything into it *except* within the context of other scriptures.    If a phrase is unclear, research the original language word(s) in question.     Some clarification of what words or phrases meant in the social context of the time they were written...but personal ideas or slants about these should be minimal or non-existent.     IMO, God speaks for himself through his word, and we have no right to inject our own ideas into what is written. 

In short...LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE.

Any mixture with Greek philosophy (which tainted "Christian" teachings after the death of the apostles) should be completely and wholeheartedly rejected.    And that is mostly what modern theology teaches.

This should fix it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 12:40:19 AM
I found the problem.   When I put "word(s)", I originally used square brackets...my bad.   Carry on.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 27, 2012, 02:41:52 AM
I believe that there should be no personal interpretation of scripture. 
ALL interpretation of Scripture is personal interpretation of Scripture.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 09:51:34 AM
I believe that there should be no personal interpretation of scripture. 
ALL interpretation of Scripture is personal interpretation of Scripture.

I'm not understanding this at all. 

If I tell you my name is Ben...is it just your personal interpretation that my name is Ben?   If your answer is yes, we'll be at an impasse, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'll do you one better.   If you receive an Email from a friend, and he updates you on everything that's going on in his life.  (job, living situation, relationship update..etc...etc...)   Are you going to start overlaying a bunch of personal interpretations over what he said?   Spent countless hours second guessing him?   If you trust him, wouldn't you just take him at his word?     If he told you he found a job at a tech company...would you start reading in that this was code for something else entirely?   

My approach to the Bible is exactly like that.  It's a letter from a friend that I trust completely.  (and I didn't come to this conclusion lightly...I didn't just wake up one day and decide this.  This was after months of contemplation and research into the facts)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 10:24:19 AM
So everything in The Bible should be taken 100% literally? The Garden of Eden, Revelation, Noah's Ark, Creation... everything?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 10:46:20 AM
So everything in The Bible should be taken 100% literally? The Garden of Eden, Revelation, Noah's Ark, Creation... everything?

It depends on what *other scriptures* tell us.   For instance...Jesus spoke of the flood and Noah as an actual event...therefore I absolutely believe that REALLY happened.    However, scriptures in Hebrews (as well as the original Hebrew wording of God resting on the seventh day, and the explanation of Peter that God doesn't view time the way we do, AND other scriptures in the Psalms) make clear that the creative days in Genesis were not 24 hr days the way we understand them.  But I do believe that the events in the Garden of Eden were real. 

As far as Revelation, the opening verses make clear that everything is symbolic...so to take it all literally, would be ignoring the verses that say it isn't.    You can't just ignore explanatory scriptures.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 10:51:11 AM
So everything in The Bible should be taken 100% literally? The Garden of Eden, Revelation, Noah's Ark, Creation... everything?

However, scriptures in Hebrews (as well as the original Hebrew wording of God resting on the seventh day, and the explanation of Peter that God doesn't view time the way we do, AND other scriptures in the Psalms) make clear that the creative days in Genesis were not 24 hr days the way we understand them.

Nope. We explained this to you already.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 10:57:38 AM
So everything in The Bible should be taken 100% literally? The Garden of Eden, Revelation, Noah's Ark, Creation... everything?

However, scriptures in Hebrews (as well as the original Hebrew wording of God resting on the seventh day, and the explanation of Peter that God doesn't view time the way we do, AND other scriptures in the Psalms) make clear that the creative days in Genesis were not 24 hr days the way we understand them.

Nope. We explained this to you already.

Well I'll take God Word over yours.    ;)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 11:01:16 AM
Nope, God used the word "day".

Regardless, does this mean that you accept the order in which everything was created in Genesis? You must wholeheartedly believe that the earth was created before light which was created before the sun and the moon which were created before the stars, right?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 11:03:36 AM
I don't want to get too far off topic...but just to clarify.  Besides Hebrews 4...besides Peter...besides the Psalms...we also have Genesis 2:3 itself.

Young LITERAL Translation:
"And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making."

A little more digging...the Hebrew word used here for "he hath ceased" is in the present and continuous sense (as in...still ongoing...indicating that he was *still* in that day of rest at the time of the writing, which was done *thousands* of years after the fact). 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 11:11:04 AM
That's lovely. You didn't answer my question.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 11:14:10 AM
Nope, God used the word "day".

Regardless, does this mean that you accept the order in which everything was created in Genesis? You must wholeheartedly believe that the earth was created before light which was created before the sun and the moon which were created before the stars, right?

Again...you're NOT looking at the scripture.

1.  God created the heavens and the earth.

So what was in the heavens?    Everything you see!   So he started by creating all of what we see in the heavens.

2. Now the earth proved to be formless waste and there was *DARKNESS* upon the surface of the watery deep.

Ok...so now we are approaching things from the POV of what's on the earth.   The sun and the stars have been created...but the earth was dark.

3. Let God said let there be light.

Ok...so now light begins to appear ON THE EARTH.   The scripture explains everything.  I don't have to read anything into it at all. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 11:19:00 AM
Cool thanks. I didn't want to look back and find posts where you personally interpret scripture, so you just provided it.


Almost everything you just said is your personal interpretation of what you think "it must mean".
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 11:51:31 AM
Nope, God used the word "day".

Regardless, does this mean that you accept the order in which everything was created in Genesis? You must wholeheartedly believe that the earth was created before light which was created before the sun and the moon which were created before the stars, right?

Again...you're NOT looking at the scripture.

1.  God created the heavens and the earth.

So what was in the heavens?    Everything you see!   So he started by creating all of what we see in the heavens.

I don't see anything in the heavens, because I never have and no one ever has. You're confusing the "heavens" for the "sky".

2. Now the earth proved to be formless waste and there was *DARKNESS* upon the surface of the watery deep.

Ok...so now we are approaching things from the POV of what's on the earth.   The sun and the stars have been created...but the earth was dark.

No, the sun and stars were not created yet. They were created on the fourth day (Genesis 1:14-18).

Ok...so now light begins to appear ON THE EARTH.   The scripture explains everything.  I don't have to read anything into it at all. 

The sun and stars were already there but there was no light on earth? How does that make sense to you?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 12:09:37 PM
Jammin, is it not somewhat presumptuous, given the vast divergence of Bible interpretations, to think that you are the only one who is not interpreting anything from the text? One might call that arrogant.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 12:26:06 PM
Jammin, is it not somewhat presumptuous, given the vast divergence of Bible interpretations, to think that you are the only one who is not interpreting anything from the text? One might call that arrogant.

rumborak

If there is arrogance, there can be no understanding.  The only way to understand scripture is trust in God's Word and not mens.    Don't listen to me.  Look it up for yourself.    Thinking *we* know better than God's Word is the first mistake.   The first step is...WE KNOW NOTHING.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 12:31:02 PM
You're quite good at dodging the point my friend. But all it does it make these debates go on longer.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 12:40:39 PM
Ever think about becoming a politician, jammindude?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 12:41:19 PM
Nope, God used the word "day".

Regardless, does this mean that you accept the order in which everything was created in Genesis? You must wholeheartedly believe that the earth was created before light which was created before the sun and the moon which were created before the stars, right?

Again...you're NOT looking at the scripture.

1.  God created the heavens and the earth.

So what was in the heavens?    Everything you see!   So he started by creating all of what we see in the heavens.

I don't see anything in the heavens, because I never have and no one ever has. You're confusing the "heavens" for the "sky".

2. Now the earth proved to be formless waste and there was *DARKNESS* upon the surface of the watery deep.

Ok...so now we are approaching things from the POV of what's on the earth.   The sun and the stars have been created...but the earth was dark.

No, the sun and stars were not created yet. They were created on the fourth day (Genesis 1:14-18).

Ok...so now light begins to appear ON THE EARTH.   The scripture explains everything.  I don't have to read anything into it at all. 

The sun and stars were already there but there was no light on earth? How does that make sense to you?

1. You're the one who's arguing that the stars have not existed for millions of years.   I'm saying that Genesis states very plainly that the entire universe was created "in the beginning".

2. You're taking 14-18 out of the context of vs 2.  If you take 14-18 to mean that they weren't created yet, you're ignoring Genesis 1 that says they were.  If you take into account vs 2 that we are going down to the POV of the earth, then 14-18 all make sense and perfectly harmonize with 1 and 2.  The sun and the stars began to be clearly seen from the POV of the earth.    This is where the confusion often lies.   People *read in* contradictions, when they don't really contradict at all.  You just have to take them together and harmonize them.  That way, God speaks for himself.   No interpretation required. 

3. I cannot speculate.  I have no idea.   The Bible isn't designed to be a scientific textbook.    Remember that we reducing several million years into a couple of paragraphs.   The point was not to explain every little detail.    Who knows what the aftermath of the earth first forming was like?   I don't.    I could imagine that when the earth was first created, there may have been *something* (IDK...dust, clouds...I have no idea) that may have been blocking light from reaching the earth.   Remember that at this point, there is no life yet.  You had to have light before you can have life.    So light first...then as everything starts to "burn off", the sun becomes obvious in the sky rather than just a hazy light.    But again...the Bible does not explain what was blocking light from reaching the earth.  Only that the universe and everything in it existed, and that the earth was dark.   Then from the POV of the earth, things that were already there began to slowly become visible from the earth. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 12:43:23 PM
The bible never states that part of genesis is from the point of view of the earth. You're assuming that.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 12:48:43 PM

1. You're the one who's arguing that the stars have not existed for millions of years.
What?

1. You're the one who's arguing that the stars have not existed for millions of years.   I'm saying that Genesis states very plainly that the entire universe was created "in the beginning".

Nope. Read it again. It says the heavens and the earth were created in the beginning. Two things: the heavens, where God lives, and the earth, where we live. There was no such thing as a universe when the Bible was written.

2. You're taking 14-18 out of the context of vs 2.  If you take 14-18 to mean that they weren't created yet, you're ignoring Genesis 1 that says they were.

Nope. Genesis 1:1 says God created the heavens and the Earth, not the stars. He couldn't have created the stars in Genesis 1:1 because he created them three days later in Genesis 14-18.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 01:00:54 PM
The bible never states that part of genesis is from the point of view of the earth. You're assuming that.

Wow...this statement just baffles me.    It's like if I said, "there's a car outside, but then I went inside the house, and I couldn't see the car anymore"....and you're saying I never went in the house...and that the car stopped existing.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Sigz on May 27, 2012, 01:01:51 PM
It's like if I said, "there's a car outside, but then I went inside the house, and I couldn't see the car anymore"....and you're saying I never went in the house...and that the car stopped existing.

wat
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 01:05:13 PM
The bible never states that part of genesis is from the point of view of the earth. You're assuming that.

Wow...this statement just baffles me.    It's like if I said, "there's a car outside, but then I went inside the house, and I couldn't see the car anymore"....and you're saying I never went in the house...and that the car stopped existing.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

Actually it would be more like if I said the bible never states that part of genesis is from the point of view of the earth, and that you're just assuming it.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 27, 2012, 01:27:23 PM
jammindude, your entire point seems to rely on the idea that in Genesis 1:1, 'the heavens' is referring to the universe above.  That in and of itself is a personal interpretation of the Bible. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 03:15:01 PM
Damn jammin, knowingly or not, you represent just about everything that is wrong with religion. Your approach to Scripture has been the cause of wars and death for thousands of years.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 03:24:23 PM
>Takes A LOT of pride in never making undue interpretations of scripture
>Interprets everything
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 03:28:33 PM
Damn jammin, knowingly or not, you represent just about everything that is wrong with religion. Your approach to Scripture has been the cause of wars and death for thousands of years.

rumborak

Don't get this at all.   If the Scriptures were followed *as a whole*, there would be no more wars at all.    Jesus set the example of self-sacrifice.   I would never take up the sword against my fellow man.   In fact, the scriptures teach that a Christian would die before taking another life.   

Wars are the antithesis of Scripture.  (again...if taken as *the whole* of scripture)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 03:34:55 PM
That's what just about every harbinger of war has said throughout history. "If they only believed what I do, there wouldn't need to be war. It's them who are forcing me to do this."

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 03:43:03 PM
That's what just about every harbinger of war has said throughout history. "If they only believed what I do, there wouldn't need to be war. It's them who are forcing me to do this."

rumborak

Rummy...I'm sorry but this makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever.   The scripture plainly says that God's servants are not to take up the sword...not for any reason whatsoever.  Period.   Therefore anyone who has ever decided *they* had a reason to be an exception to the rule is not following scripture.   

I really don't feel like I'm getting my point across, but I don't see how I could possibly be more plain.   The scripture does not leave any room for anyone to make an exception.   Anyone who has ever gone into battle...for any reason whatsoever...is disobeying God's Word.   It doesn't matter if they think they have a good reason or not...they deny Jesus' command by their actions.   War is never acceptable...not for any reason at all...whatsoever.

If I'm repeating myself, it's because I feel like I said it already, and people still aren't getting it.   There are no exceptions.   No taking of another life...not ever...not for any reason. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 03:45:54 PM
Maybe I can interject here.

Rumby, JWs are pacifists. (ironic given that they were the only christians to resist WW2 in europe). Jamminbro isn't going to war with anyone anytime soon.

Jamminman, Rumby is mostly just saying that the people who DID go to war countless times for religion had a very similar mindset about scripture as you do. That there's only one objective way to read it and everyone else is wrong. Granted you will gladly leave it at that, but they didn't.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 03:50:34 PM
Pacifists is a bit strong...but I know that you do understand.   (I wouldn't stand ideally by and let someone harm my family...but if someone was attempting it, my goal would be to do anything possible to *make the action stop*...NOT to take another life.   I know of several situations where people got out of it by preaching instead of fighting...but every situation is different). 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 03:53:16 PM
Pacifists is a bit strong...but I know that you do understand.   (I wouldn't stand ideally by and let someone harm my family...but if someone was attempting it, my goal would be to do anything possible to *make the action stop*...NOT to take another life.   I know of several situations where people got out of it by preaching instead of fighting...but every situation is different).

Yea, but you got my point. In fact one of my friends tried to talk me out of dating a JW by saying they're pacifists, as if that's a deterrent. Luckily I didn't heed his advice. :-D
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 03:53:55 PM
jd, Rumby is not actually suggesting that you're going to kill people. You're obviously not going to.

He's saying your mindset is very similar to the people throughout history who have killed for religion, because you think very, very, very highly of your own interpretation of scripture.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 27, 2012, 04:07:11 PM
The scripture does not leave any room for anyone to make an exception.   Anyone who has ever gone into battle...for any reason whatsoever...is disobeying God's Word.   

What about the ones who were specifically commanded by God? 

1 Samuel 15:3 - "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”  1 Samuel 15:18-19 - "And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage war against them until you have wiped them out.’ Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?”" 

So not only was Saul commanded to kill, but he was actually reprimanded for not being more thorough in his destruction.   

I understand that this is not supported by the 'whole of scripture', but how can you possibly maintain that God has never wanted anyone to kill anyone when the Bible has examples of Him specifically commanding t?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 04:22:35 PM
The scripture does not leave any room for anyone to make an exception.   Anyone who has ever gone into battle...for any reason whatsoever...is disobeying God's Word.   

What about the ones who were specifically commanded by God? 

1 Samuel 15:3 - "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”  1 Samuel 15:18-19 - "And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage war against them until you have wiped them out.’ Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?”" 

So not only was Saul commanded to kill, but he was actually reprimanded for not being more thorough in his destruction.   

I understand that this is not supported by the 'whole of scripture', but how can you possibly maintain that God has never wanted anyone to kill anyone when the Bible has examples of Him specifically commanding t?

Because I never said that it has been the case throughout history.   

It is the command for Christians...with no exceptions.    Even stating that if an angel from heaven were to tell us anything different, let that angel be cursed.  So not even a "voice from heaven" could make an exception to the rule. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 04:32:55 PM
To be fair RockinBro, you did say "ever"  :laugh:.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 05:04:12 PM
The scripture does not leave any room for anyone to make an exception.   Anyone who has ever gone into battle...for any reason whatsoever...is disobeying God's Word.   

What about the ones who were specifically commanded by God? 

1 Samuel 15:3 - "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”  1 Samuel 15:18-19 - "And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage war against them until you have wiped them out.’ Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?”" 

So not only was Saul commanded to kill, but he was actually reprimanded for not being more thorough in his destruction.   

I understand that this is not supported by the 'whole of scripture', but how can you possibly maintain that God has never wanted anyone to kill anyone when the Bible has examples of Him specifically commanding t?

Because I never said that it has been the case throughout history.   

It is the command for Christians...with no exceptions.    Even stating that if an angel from heaven were to tell us anything different, let that angel be cursed.  So not even a "voice from heaven" could make an exception to the rule.

Jesus wasn't exactly pacifist either. His violent outburst in the temple for one, and Matthew 11:20-24 isn't exactly "mellow" either.

Also, barely any religious call to arms has been "offensive" officially. They were all supposedly responses to external threats, and I'm sure you'll find plenty of passages in the Bible justifying whatever means necessary.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 27, 2012, 06:05:54 PM
The scripture does not leave any room for anyone to make an exception.   Anyone who has ever gone into battle...for any reason whatsoever...is disobeying God's Word.   

What about the ones who were specifically commanded by God? 

1 Samuel 15:3 - "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”  1 Samuel 15:18-19 - "And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage war against them until you have wiped them out.’ Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?”" 

So not only was Saul commanded to kill, but he was actually reprimanded for not being more thorough in his destruction.   

I understand that this is not supported by the 'whole of scripture', but how can you possibly maintain that God has never wanted anyone to kill anyone when the Bible has examples of Him specifically commanding t?

Because I never said that it has been the case throughout history.   

Quote
Anyone who has ever gone into battle...for any reason whatsoever...is disobeying God's Word.

Sorry for the confusion if that wasn't what you meant, but you did say it, quite plainly. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 07:33:41 PM
Ok...my bad on the "ever".   I did mean that to imply within the context of the history of Christianity. 

Perhaps it would have been been better to say that anyone who has ever gone to war was not a Christian. 

Or anyone who has gone to war since Christ's new commandment has disobeyed God's Word.

This is what I meant, and I apologize for using the wrong wording.   And actually...thank you all for calling me out on it, because I hate it when I miscommunicate. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: yeshaberto on May 27, 2012, 07:35:44 PM
I would have to disagree, though, simply based on Romans 13.  The government does not bear the sword in vain, and is given its authority by God as an executor of revenge.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 27, 2012, 07:36:58 PM
Ok...my bad on the "ever".   I did mean that to imply within the context of the history of Christianity. 

Perhaps it would have been been better to say that anyone who has ever gone to war was not a Christian. 

Or anyone who has gone to war since Christ's new commandment has disobeyed God's Word.

This is what I meant, and I apologize for using the wrong wording.   And actually...thank you all for calling me out on it, because I hate it when I miscommunicate.

No worries.  Sorry for jumping down your throat about it.  I now realize the misunderstanding, but at first I was rather perplexed by your claim.   :lol
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 07:57:14 PM
The scripture does not leave any room for anyone to make an exception.   Anyone who has ever gone into battle...for any reason whatsoever...is disobeying God's Word.   

What about the ones who were specifically commanded by God? 

1 Samuel 15:3 - "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”  1 Samuel 15:18-19 - "And he sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; wage war against them until you have wiped them out.’ Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?”" 

So not only was Saul commanded to kill, but he was actually reprimanded for not being more thorough in his destruction.   

I understand that this is not supported by the 'whole of scripture', but how can you possibly maintain that God has never wanted anyone to kill anyone when the Bible has examples of Him specifically commanding t?

Because I never said that it has been the case throughout history.   

It is the command for Christians...with no exceptions.    Even stating that if an angel from heaven were to tell us anything different, let that angel be cursed.  So not even a "voice from heaven" could make an exception to the rule.

Jesus wasn't exactly pacifist either. His violent outburst in the temple for one, and Matthew 11:20-24 isn't exactly "mellow" either.

Also, barely any religious call to arms has been "offensive" officially. They were all supposedly responses to external threats, and I'm sure you'll find plenty of passages in the Bible justifying whatever means necessary.

rumborak

As to your last point...I see nothing in scripture that over-rides Christ's commandment.   There were wars God authorized in the past.   But since the death of his son he has delegated ALL judging to HIM, and ordered all his servants to show loving kindness toward all.   Only Jesus can decide who the incorrigible are...and only he can pass judgment.     We must leave all judgments to him.   

Since Christ's command, you will find nothing to justify killing anyone...not for any reason.   As a matter fact, quite the opposite...we're supposed to pray for those who are persecuting us.     So no, you won't find anything "justifying whatever means necessary" in the Bible since the advent of Christianity.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 08:05:08 PM
I would have to disagree, though, simply based on Romans 13.  The government does not bear the sword in vain, and is given its authority by God as an executor of revenge.

The government is given authority to keep the peace.  But since Christians were to be no part of the world, and held no government office...this simply applied to Christians to *be respectful to the governments.*   They were not a part OF the governments. 

It is a well documented fact that the first century Christians would not hold any public office, and would NOT join the Army...even if the punishment for refusal was death. 

So yes, God authorizes governments to bear the sword to keep the peace...but then he orders Christians to not be any part of that governmental system.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 08:05:33 PM
Jesus however also said he does not negate the old law. So, it's rather your personal decision to disregard aspects of the OT.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 08:08:38 PM
Jesus however also said he does not negate the old law. So, it's rather your personal decision to disregard aspects of the OT.

rumborak

In this case it's the interpretation of 99% of christians. Not just RockinRobby.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 08:10:54 PM
If it was the actual interpretation of 99% of all Christians, how come this country has waged almost continuous war since its inception?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 08:12:28 PM
If it was the actual interpretation of 99% of all Christians, how come this country has waged almost continuous war since its inception?

rumborak

Well I still argue that most wars have nothing to do with religion, even if they use religion as a front.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 08:20:52 PM
That depends on how you define the "reason" for a war. Is it the ulterior motive of the leader that instigated the war, or is it the reason stated to get public support?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 08:24:20 PM
That depends on how you define the "reason" for a war. Is it the ulterior motive of the leader that instigated the war, or is it the reason stated to get public support?

rumborak

Fair point. But these wars would have happened with or without religion. And if by this country, I assume you mean America.....which wars had much to do with christianity? Revolutionary War? Civil War? WWI? WWII? Vietnam? Korea?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 08:26:29 PM
Jesus however also said he does not negate the old law. So, it's rather your personal decision to disregard aspects of the OT.

rumborak

But Paul clarifies this.  The law stands *FULFILLED*... 

The only interpretation possible that harmonizes *the whole of Scripture* (that is, the sayings of the OT, the sayings of Jesus, and the writings of Paul...all of which come ultimately from God), is that the Law stands as a fulfilled contract.   Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law. 

If you have a contract to build a building...and then you finish building it...you don't *keep* building after it's finished.    It is still there as a reference....so in that way, it is not negated.   But because it is fulfilled we are no longer held to its standard.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 08:30:02 PM
That depends on how you define the "reason" for a war. Is it the ulterior motive of the leader that instigated the war, or is it the reason stated to get public support?

rumborak

Fair point. But these wars would have happened with or without religion. And if by this country, I assume you mean America.....which wars had much to do with christianity? Revolutionary War? Civil War? WWI? WWII? Vietnam? Korea?

Btw, I'm not saying that America's wars were based on religion. But if the argument here is that the correct interpretation of Jesus teaching is to never pick up a weapon, then the only conclusion can be that Christianity is rather useless as a moral code. There's been so many wars, and Christians shoot each other every day in this country.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 08:35:32 PM
If it was the actual interpretation of 99% of all Christians, how come this country has waged almost continuous war since its inception?

rumborak

Well, it certainly was not because they were following the commandments of Christ...   I can only show you that many so-called "Christians" have been disobeying scripture...beyond that, you will have to draw your own conclusions.   

Obviously, since Jesus said that many would *claim* to be following him, but not following his father's commands...we have a guide in God's Word to separate actual Christians from false Christians.   

The Bible is the yard stick...if any group is not following the commands of Christ, then they cannot be (by definition) "Christian".   Therefore...according to Scripture...the Crusades were not carried out by actual Christians.  The Inquisition was not carried out by actual Christians.  And so on, and so forth....
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: yeshaberto on May 27, 2012, 08:39:39 PM
I would have to disagree, though, simply based on Romans 13.  The government does not bear the sword in vain, and is given its authority by God as an executor of revenge.

The government is given authority to keep the peace.  But since Christians were to be no part of the world, and held no government office...this simply applied to Christians to *be respectful to the governments.*   They were not a part OF the governments. 

It is a well documented fact that the first century Christians would not hold any public office, and would NOT join the Army...even if the punishment for refusal was death. 

So yes, God authorizes governments to bear the sword to keep the peace...but then he orders Christians to not be any part of that governmental system.

I am unfamiliar with the "order" for Christians not to be part of the government.  do you have a passage in mind?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 08:48:04 PM
If it was the actual interpretation of 99% of all Christians, how come this country has waged almost continuous war since its inception?

rumborak

Well, it certainly was not because they were following the commandments of Christ...   I can only show you that many so-called "Christians" have been disobeying scripture...beyond that, you will have to draw your own conclusions.   

Obviously, since Jesus said that many would *claim* to be following him, but not following his father's commands...we have a guide in God's Word to separate actual Christians from false Christians.   

The Bible is the yard stick...if any group is not following the commands of Christ, then they cannot be (by definition) "Christian".   Therefore...according to Scripture...the Crusades were not carried out by actual Christians.  The Inquisition was not carried out by actual Christians.  And so on, and so forth....

Just to get this straight then, essentially you're the only Christian?
I almost want to edit the Wikipedia entry on the word "Christian" to say

"A Christian is a person who says he is part of a large group of like minded people, but at the same time denies almost all of them the right to be called Christian".

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Adami on May 27, 2012, 08:48:38 PM
Oh, I'm glad you've just cleared any Christians of any wrong doing what so ever.

In that case, REAL Muslims aren't waging any ways or killing anyone. REAL Americans have never led a war etc etc.

The inquisition, the crusades etc etc were carried out by Christians, whether you like that or not. Misguided Christians? Sure. But Christians none the less.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 08:53:18 PM
I would have to disagree, though, simply based on Romans 13.  The government does not bear the sword in vain, and is given its authority by God as an executor of revenge.

The government is given authority to keep the peace.  But since Christians were to be no part of the world, and held no government office...this simply applied to Christians to *be respectful to the governments.*   They were not a part OF the governments. 

It is a well documented fact that the first century Christians would not hold any public office, and would NOT join the Army...even if the punishment for refusal was death. 

So yes, God authorizes governments to bear the sword to keep the peace...but then he orders Christians to not be any part of that governmental system.

I am unfamiliar with the "order" for Christians not to be part of the government.  do you have a passage in mind?

Maybe "order" is the wrong word...and if I misspoke again, I apologize.      It's really an amalgamation of several scriptural principles, and then looking into the established history of how the *first century* Christians (the ones who actually knew and walked with Christ and/or his 12 apostles) applied those principles.    After the death of the Apostle John (the last living apostle...who died in approximately 100 C.E....a very short time after writing the Revelation and the three letters bearing his name) everything went south, and Christianity immediately deviated from what Christ taught.   John even hinted that he could already see it starting to happen when he was alive.    But I digress. 

It had to do with Jesus continually saying to be "no part of the world"...his example of refusal to get involved in any politics...and his commandments to never take up the sword.   Turn your cheek toward your enemy, and pray for those persecuting you.   All these principles cannot be harmonized with the idea of joining the Army.   Jesus set the example, and we must follow that example.    The first century Christians followed these commandments to the letter.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 08:55:23 PM
Oh, I'm glad you've just cleared any Christians of any wrong doing what so ever.

In that case, REAL Muslims aren't waging any ways or killing anyone. REAL Americans have never led a war etc etc.

The inquisition, the crusades etc etc were carried out by Christians, whether you like that or not. Misguided Christians? Sure. But Christians none the less.


FALSE Christianity is guilty of many...many...many crimes against humanity.  I will say that.   False religion is the cause so much bloodshed it's sickening. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 08:58:50 PM
A lot of True Scotsman floating around here.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 09:05:43 PM
If it was the actual interpretation of 99% of all Christians, how come this country has waged almost continuous war since its inception?

rumborak

Well, it certainly was not because they were following the commandments of Christ...   I can only show you that many so-called "Christians" have been disobeying scripture...beyond that, you will have to draw your own conclusions.   

Obviously, since Jesus said that many would *claim* to be following him, but not following his father's commands...we have a guide in God's Word to separate actual Christians from false Christians.   

The Bible is the yard stick...if any group is not following the commands of Christ, then they cannot be (by definition) "Christian".   Therefore...according to Scripture...the Crusades were not carried out by actual Christians.  The Inquisition was not carried out by actual Christians.  And so on, and so forth....

Just to get this straight then, essentially you're the only Christian?
I almost want to edit the Wikipedia entry on the word "Christian" to say

"A Christian is a person who says he is part of a large group of like minded people, but at the same time denies almost all of them the right to be called Christian".

rumborak

No no no..

A Christian is any person who is following the example of Jesus Christ.   A person who lives his entire life by Christ's commandments.   A Christian is someone who stops living life according to his own standards, and starts living his standards according to Bible principles.   

I believe that I have found the only group on earth that is doing that.  Your mileage may vary.    I think it is already well established that I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.   I do believe that it is the only true Christian religion.   But honestly...I hate the term religion.   I despise it.    Religion is a snare and a racket...pure and simple.  Religion has been used to twist peoples minds and make people do terrible things to one another ever since it was established.

But religion is an invention of men.  WORSHIP is an invention of God...but it wasn't until men started saying, "I don't want to do things God's way...I want to worship God *MY* way."  That deviations started popping up.   Then the term "religion" became necessary in order to distinguish one from another.    IMO...(and this is not any JW teaching per-se...this part is purely my personal view)  I don't belong to a religion.   I belong to God's organized WORSHIP.   This can only be the case if you're doing things according to God's Word, and not any personal views to skew it.    God's Word says to be no part of the world, and love your enemy.   You can't love your enemy by killing him.     So even if I was in a situation where I wanted to...I'm under a command NOT to.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 09:08:08 PM
A lot of True Scotsman floating around here.

rumborak

I know the argument.   But there's a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE. 

The "no true Scotsman" argument has no definable parameters.  The story hinges on it being purely subjective.

In the case of Christianity, we have a very definite parameter.   If the Scotsman had a definable list of rules...then if you follow them, you're a Scotsman...if you don't you're not....there wouldn't be a problem.   But the parable of the true Scotsman has none of that.   Christianity DOES.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 09:12:35 PM
No no no..

A Christian is any person who is following the example of Jesus Christ.   A person who lives his entire life by Christ's commandments.   A Christian is someone who stops living life according to his own standards, and starts living his standards according to Bible principles.   

But the people who carried out the Crusades and the Inquisition were told by the Christian God that they needed to do those things.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 09:15:00 PM
No no no..

A Christian is any person who is following the example of Jesus Christ.   A person who lives his entire life by Christ's commandments.   A Christian is someone who stops living life according to his own standards, and starts living his standards according to Bible principles.   

But the people who carried out the Crusades and the Inquisition were told by the Christian God that they needed to do those things.

And where in the Bible does it say that??? ;)

Exactly...it doesn't.    The Bible says in effect, "these are the rules...do not deviate...not even for a voice from heaven".   Says it pretty plainly too.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 09:23:51 PM
What about Luke 14:26? Are you living up to that standard?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 27, 2012, 09:24:54 PM
Exactly...it doesn't.    The Bible says in effect, "these are the rules...do not deviate...not even for a voice from heaven".   Says it pretty plainly too.

Just for my own understanding (seriously, I'm not trying to argue, I'm just not familiar with this 'not even for a voice from heaven' passage so I'm curious), this means that if God Himself tells a Christian to do something sinful - say, kill someone - then the good Christian should disobey God in order to follow the teachings of the Bible?
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 27, 2012, 09:28:03 PM
Also, I'll take a moment to remind you, jd, that you're so good at evading questions that you neglected to fix your Genesis-interpretation problem.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 09:30:17 PM
Exactly...it doesn't.    The Bible says in effect, "these are the rules...do not deviate...not even for a voice from heaven".   Says it pretty plainly too.

Just for my own understanding (seriously, I'm not trying to argue, I'm just not familiar with this 'not even for a voice from heaven' passage so I'm curious), this means that if God Himself tells a Christian to do something sinful - say, kill someone - then the good Christian should disobey God in order to follow the teachings of the Bible?

It's best if I just quote the scripture: 
"However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed."  (Gal 1:8, 9)

Let's put it this way.  If I heard a voice *CLAIMING* to be God, that told me to do something against scripture...that would immediately prove to me that it *WASN'T GOD*.   If I saw with my own eyes a spirit creature claiming to be God that told me to do something against scripture, that would prove to me that it wasn't God.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 09:34:07 PM
Also, I'll take a moment to remind you, jd, that you're so good at evading questions that you neglected to fix your Genesis-interpretation problem.


It's not intentional...I just feel like I'm trying to have several conversations at once.    Remind me again...what specifically are you seeking clarification on?  (I gotta sign off in a sec, so I may not get to it til tomorrow.)
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 09:37:27 PM
What about Luke 14:26? Are you living up to that standard?

rumborak

If taken in context with Christ's command to love all (along with the broader definition of "hate" used in the Bible) this scripture *IS* saying that you MUST love God and Christ even more than your own life or your own family.   Yes.  I do follow that.    God comes first...family second...self last.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2012, 09:54:08 PM
That's not what it says, sorry. You are "translating" to your liking.
Jesus isn't talking about priorities, he talks of "hate", "discord" and that he is the sword that drives into the family, and that nobody who doesn't hate his mother and father can't be a disciple of his. Stick to the source.
Matthew 8:21-22 is really the same thing. A true disciple of Christ doesn't even bury his father if he wants to follow Him.
And in all reality, you will proceed to ignore the passage because you don't like what it would mean to your life. And with that attitude you're no better than the Christians you derided.

That's why I always said that probably the only Christians are monks.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 27, 2012, 09:56:15 PM
Let's put it this way.  If I heard a voice *CLAIMING* to be God, that told me to do something against scripture...that would immediately prove to me that it *WASN'T GOD*.   If I saw with my own eyes a spirit creature claiming to be God that told me to do something against scripture, that would prove to me that it wasn't God.   

Fair enough.  Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 27, 2012, 10:19:49 PM
That's not what it says, sorry. You are "translating" to your liking.
Jesus isn't talking about priorities, he talks of "hate", "discord" and that he is the sword that drives into the family, and that nobody who doesn't hate his mother and father can't be a disciple of his. Stick to the source.
Matthew 8:21-22 is really the same thing. A true disciple of Christ doesn't even bury his father if he wants to follow Him.
And in all reality, you will proceed to ignore the passage because you don't like what it would mean to your life. And with that attitude you're no better than the Christians you derided.

That's why I always said that probably the only Christians are monks.

rumborak

I did say from the beginning that only scriptures can translate other scriptures.     No scripture is an island.   Isolating scriptures is what gets one into trouble.

If Jesus says "love" in one place, and "hate" in another...then context *MUST* be taken into account.   There is usually only one explanation that harmonizes the two.    If there is still questions...then MORE scriptures must be looked up on the same subject and taken into account.    Sometimes even looking at the way "hate" was used in the Septuagint to make sure that it meant the same thing to the first century Christians that it does to us today.     Digging to find the meaning of the source material is not the same as "reading in" personal interpretation. 

Hate is accurate...but relative.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 28, 2012, 05:02:17 AM
The only interpretation possible that harmonizes *the whole of Scripture* (that is, the sayings of the OT, the sayings of Jesus, and the writings of Paul...all of which come ultimately from God), is that the Law stands as a fulfilled contract.   Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law. 
This is a personal interpretation, as is your opinion that it all comes ultimately from God.

That's what I meant when I said that ALL interpretation is personal interpretation.

The fact is that there is no harmonization of "the whole of Scripture" without taking egregious liberties with the text (as you have done with your "Genesis isn't about 7 24-hour days" supposition) or linking multiple passages which have nothing to do with each other (which you also did in that example).
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 28, 2012, 07:47:08 AM
I did say from the beginning that only scriptures can translate other scriptures.     No scripture is an island.   Isolating scriptures is what gets one into trouble.

If Jesus says "love" in one place, and "hate" in another...then context *MUST* be taken into account.   There is usually only one explanation that harmonizes the two.    If there is still questions...then MORE scriptures must be looked up on the same subject and taken into account.    Sometimes even looking at the way "hate" was used in the Septuagint to make sure that it meant the same thing to the first century Christians that it does to us today.     Digging to find the meaning of the source material is not the same as "reading in" personal interpretation. 

Hate is accurate...but relative.

Well, if we're talking context, let's consider the context.

Quote
When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”
16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’
18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’
19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’
20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’
21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’
22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’
23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

and

Quote
Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. 19  And a scribe came up and said to him, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” 21 Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

The context is pretty unambiguous. Following Jesus isn't a part-time job, something you design around your other daily activities.

Also:

Quote
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”


There is no room for your type of harmonization. Reality is that following Jesus takes far more than any regular person would ever be willing to commit these days, except monks. You said that Christians have deviated from the correct following of Jesus after the first century. I would agree; they used to live in extreme poverty and seclusion from others and dedicated their whole lives to Jesus. That's the yardstick.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 28, 2012, 08:23:12 AM

The context is pretty unambiguous. Following Jesus isn't a part-time job, something you design around your other daily activities.

Also:

Quote
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”


There is no room for your type of harmonization. Reality is that following Jesus takes far more than any regular person would ever be willing to commit these days, except monks. You said that Christians have deviated from the correct following of Jesus after the first century. I would agree; they used to live in extreme poverty and seclusion from others and dedicated their whole lives to Jesus. That's the yardstick.

rumborak

Actually you are very nearly exactly on target.    Yes...it does require a level of commitment that most people would not be willing to commit to these days....but it is that important. 

But your comments about *extreme* poverty and seclusion are not right.   Jesus commanded his disciples to preach and teach and make more disciples.  He said they would preach to the entire earth.    So that is NOT seclusion.    And the scriptures preach balance about money.    "Money is the root of all evil" is quite likely the single most MISquoted scripture in the entire Bible.   It says "...the *LOVE* of money is the root of all evil..."   Also, just a single chapter earlier in that same letter (1 Timothy) God's Word says that "if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith."   So obviously, there is a balance.  We have to provide for our household, but we cannot focus on these thing to the exclusion of spiritual priorities.  God *must* take priority over all things...and it is a 24/7 lifestyle.  Not just on Sundays.

It's sortof like how The Bible states that a little wine is good for the stomach, and wine is a gift from God...but then says drunkards will not inherit God's Kingdom.   Some take one scripture as an excuse to get drunk, others use the other scripture as an excuse for prohibition for Christians.   Both are wrong.      You can't separate the two.    The message from the whole of scripture is that alcohol *in moderation* is a gift from God. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 28, 2012, 08:28:26 AM
So, you're basing the justification of your lifestyle on the fact that the scripture doesn't use the word "NOT" as an emphasis?

I'm not here to "convince" you of anything, because frankly the point I'm making would mean that barely anybody goes to heaven. I would just hope that at this point you realize you're amalgamating passages together to your liking. Your current, wealthy way of life has nothing to do with the lifestyle of the disciples or 1st century Christians. The passages I quoted make clear that Jesus had very high standards to membership. It's totally your personal interpretation to relegate that to mere semantics and thus arrive at the conclusion that you are within Jesus' parameters.

I mean, to spell it out directly, Jesus scolded a guy for wanting to bury his father before becoming a disciple. Do you really think Jesus would approve of you as a member, sitting in an air-conned room posting on a DTF message board?

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 28, 2012, 08:33:43 AM
So, you're basing the justification of your lifestyle on the fact that the scripture doesn't use the word "NOT" as an emphasis?

I'm not here to "convince" you of anything, because frankly the point I'm making would mean that barely anybody goes to heaven. I would just hope that at this point you realize you're amalgamating passages together to your liking. Your current, wealthy way of life has nothing to do with the lifestyle of the disciples or 1st century Christians. The passages I quoted make clear that Jesus had very high standards to membership. It's totally your personal interpretation to relegate that to mere semantics and thus arrive at the conclusion that you are within Jesus' parameters.

rumborak

I'm not wealthy.  I'm just pointing out that your statement that all first century Christians is inaccurate.

"Give orders to those who are rich in the present system of things not to be high-minded, and to rest their hope, not on uncertain riches, but on God, who furnishes us all things richly for our enjoyment..."  (1 Tim 6:17)

This was not an open letter to the public...it was addressed to Timothy as council for him to give to *the congregations*...those who were already Christians.   So the whole of scripture is balanced about money. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 28, 2012, 08:36:59 AM
Dude, you live in one of the richest countries of the world, posting at a computer in an air-conditioned room. You are wealthy. It's probably also a safe assumption that you own a car, and maybe even a house.

EDIT: Matthew 19:

Quote
All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

Interesting sections bolded.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 28, 2012, 12:14:12 PM
But I feel the need to repeat.  You can't take scriptures in seclusion.    Obviously, when you look at 1 Tim, there *were* rich Christians. 

See my comment two posts up about the scriptural counsel on alcohol.    I'm not denying anything Jesus said.   

As a matter of fact, let's go back to the alcohol illustration for a moment.    So wine is a gift from God, and is good for the stomach.   Is that a commandment *TO* drink?   If someone is an alcoholic, do they have to drink to be a Christian?   Of course not.   OTOH...it would also be un-Christian to take the scriptures condemning drunkenness to condemn others drinking just because it doesn't match up with YOUR ideal.    BUT...if someone had a problem with alcohol (say they could not take a drink without having more and getting drunk) then Jesus counsel to "pluck out your eye" would apply.   No matter how much you love something, if it's causing you to stumble, you need to tear it out and throw it away from you.    Everyone is free to drink.  But if you can't drink without getting drunk...you *MUST* abstain.  It means your eternal life.

This illustrates the balance of the *whole of Scripture*.   Jesus told *a man* to sell all he had and be his follower.   He refused because *HE* was too attached to his money.   Other scriptures say *very factually* that Jesus could read people's hearts, and knew what their problems were before they even approached him...therefore (based on scripture...not personal opinion) he must have known that this young man had an issue with money, and was giving him the opportunity to "pluck it out" and throw it away from him.    He refused, and he missed out.   The other apostles had sacrificed everything voluntarily and were blessed because they did so.   But NOT EVERY CHRISTIAN DID.    The counsel to the congregations was "*IF* you are rich, don't trust in it, don't love it, don't be snooty because of it...put your trust in God first and foremost because your money can disappear any time."  (paraphrasing)   

It is the only possible conclusion that harmonizes *the whole of scripture*...
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 28, 2012, 12:26:35 PM
And I'm not going to get into how much I'm worth.   People in third world countries don't have the system set up that we do.   I'd be willing to bet that if you took myself, and someone from a third world country...had us both sell everything we own...he would be worth more than I would.   And if he was capable of going into deep debt to keep his family alive and have a couple of creature comforts...he would.   

And for the record, I'm not downplaying the fact that I have access to more than he does...but that doesn't make me wealthy. 
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 28, 2012, 12:35:29 PM
Lol, I'm sorry, but you are desperately downplaying the fact that already for modern standards you are doing vastly better than the majority of the world's population, and for Jesus' standards you are as rich as a king. You are making an overstretched argument that somehow one must take those completely unambiguous passages "into context", where all you are trying to achieve is not have to take the passages at face value.
Believe what you will, but at this point it's blatantly clear that you interpret the Bible to justify your status quo, just like everybody else does.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: theseoafs on May 28, 2012, 01:08:49 PM
jamminfellow, it's fine to interpret the Bible as it suits your needs, because everybody on the planet does that. I think rumby would let up, however, if you stopped acting like you were God's gift to theology and the only person who truly understands the Bible.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 28, 2012, 01:20:04 PM

The context is pretty unambiguous. Following Jesus isn't a part-time job, something you design around your other daily activities.

Also:

Quote
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”


There is no room for your type of harmonization. Reality is that following Jesus takes far more than any regular person would ever be willing to commit these days, except monks. You said that Christians have deviated from the correct following of Jesus after the first century. I would agree; they used to live in extreme poverty and seclusion from others and dedicated their whole lives to Jesus. That's the yardstick.

rumborak

Actually you are very nearly exactly on target.    Yes...it does require a level of commitment that most people would not be willing to commit to these days....but it is that important. 

But your comments about *extreme* poverty and seclusion are not right.   Jesus commanded his disciples to preach and teach and make more disciples.  He said they would preach to the entire earth.    So that is NOT seclusion.    And the scriptures preach balance about money.    "Money is the root of all evil" is quite likely the single most MISquoted scripture in the entire Bible.   It says "...the *LOVE* of money is the root of all evil..."   Also, just a single chapter earlier in that same letter (1 Timothy) God's Word says that "if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith."   So obviously, there is a balance.  We have to provide for our household, but we cannot focus on these thing to the exclusion of spiritual priorities.  God *must* take priority over all things...and it is a 24/7 lifestyle.  Not just on Sundays.

It's sortof like how The Bible states that a little wine is good for the stomach, and wine is a gift from God...but then says drunkards will not inherit God's Kingdom.   Some take one scripture as an excuse to get drunk, others use the other scripture as an excuse for prohibition for Christians.   Both are wrong.      You can't separate the two.    The message from the whole of scripture is that alcohol *in moderation* is a gift from God.

I understand what your saying. Basically it's take what you need and give what you don't need to those that need what you don't need. Living a simple life, like a farmer growing crops for your household, and also for your people. Their is a reason why, us Native Americans have accepted and respected Jesus and his teachings. I also do know that being a drunk doesn't do anything but destroy your life and others, being a lazy bum thinking about oneself rather than the needs of others.

Also, Nobody will want to live the life as described in the bible, it's a hard lifestyle but its simple and very rewarding.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 28, 2012, 01:25:56 PM
And I'm not going to get into how much I'm worth.   People in third world countries don't have the system set up that we do.   I'd be willing to bet that if you took myself, and someone from a third world country...had us both sell everything we own...he would be worth more than I would.   And if he was capable of going into deep debt to keep his family alive and have a couple of creature comforts...he would.   

And for the record, I'm not downplaying the fact that I have access to more than he does...but that doesn't make me wealthy.

So if you think about it. People from third world countries are more closer to God. One reason,being they have no richess.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 28, 2012, 01:33:36 PM
Well, that's what the whole "First will be last, last will be first" thing is about.
As Acts 5 shows also, keeping money to yourself and not sharing it is frowned upon by God.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 28, 2012, 08:10:33 PM
I agree with both of the above posts.   

Seriously, I have 4 other people (two of which are disabled) that I am required by scripture to take care of.    The other 2 are older children that are on their way out. 

There is nothing I am looking forward to more, than downsizing in the near future so that I can focus more on preaching and teaching others.  In the meantime, I spend every spare moment I can trying to do the work that Jesus and the apostles did.   

I do not think I am the only person who understands the Bible.  I think *anyone* can understand the Bible if they have the right attitude.    Theology's approach to religion is, "You could never understand the Bible.  You need a college education to understand it.  You should never try to understand it yourself.  We're the educated ones.  You just do what we tell you to and you'll be fine."   

What I say is, "Don't let ANYONE ever tell you that you can't understand the Bible.  ANYONE can understand the Bible.  But it does require a humble state of mind.  You have to be willing to let God speak for himself instead of listening to men.    You have to be looking for the message with the heart attitude that The Bible says you must have."     

Don't listen to me...listen to the Bible.   
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 28, 2012, 08:12:46 PM
Also...I'm not perfect.   Right now I'm tired.   One of my many imperfections is that I probably come across more heavy handed in type than I would in person.   But you'd have to F2F with me to see what I'm talking about.

I was hoping the new avatar would help.   :xbones
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 28, 2012, 08:18:56 PM
Seriously, I have 4 other people (two of which are disabled) that I am required by scripture to take care of.    The other 2 are older children that are on their way out. 

This is all awesome, and you seem to be a genuinely upright person. All the more power to you. But according to those passages above, that is rather irrelevant. Jesus' requirements for following him aren't up for discussion; he is very descriptive about it.

Quote
Don't listen to me...listen to the Bible.

Right now I would say you're the one not listening to it.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 28, 2012, 08:50:10 PM
Seriously, I have 4 other people (two of which are disabled) that I am required by scripture to take care of.    The other 2 are older children that are on their way out. 

This is all awesome, and you seem to be a genuinely upright person. All the more power to you. But according to those passages above, that is rather irrelevant. Jesus' requirements for following him aren't up for discussion; he is very descriptive about it.

Quote
Don't listen to me...listen to the Bible.

Right now I would say you're the one not listening to it.

rumborak


You cannot ignore the scripture that says that those who do not take care of the members of their own household are worse than a person without faith.    You're treating the two scriptures as if they are incongruent...I am saying that BOTH are true and that the Bible's message is balanced.   

Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 28, 2012, 09:18:41 PM
Actually, care to point out where Jesus says that one should continue to care for one's family? He talks a lot about caring for the weak and poor in general, but in this list: https://www.openbible.info/topics/taking_care_of_your_family I don't really see anything that.
The only thing I see is Matthew 15, but that is addressed to Pharisees who lived a very different lifestyle from Jesus.

To my understanding, a disciple of Jesus back in the day left his family, sold all his belongings, and wandered with Jesus from city to city, begging for food and preaching and helping people who were in need. It seems that Jesus made that kind of lifestyle a presupposition for getting to heaven.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 28, 2012, 09:31:53 PM
You cannot ignore the scripture that says that those who do not take care of the members of their own household are worse than a person without faith.    You're treating the two scriptures as if they are incongruent...I am saying that BOTH are true and that the Bible's message is balanced.

... Wait, I'm confused.  I feel I've missed something.  Weren't you saying earlier that God comes first, family comes second, and self comes last?  And now you're saying that family has to come first, because family neglect is worse than faithlessness?  I don't understand how both of these things can be true.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 28, 2012, 09:48:03 PM
You cannot ignore the scripture that says that those who do not take care of the members of their own household are worse than a person without faith.    You're treating the two scriptures as if they are incongruent...I am saying that BOTH are true and that the Bible's message is balanced.

... Wait, I'm confused.  I feel I've missed something.  Weren't you saying earlier that God comes first, family comes second, and self comes last?  And now you're saying that family has to come first, because family neglect is worse than faithlessness?  I don't understand how both of these things can be true.


Caring for the needs of your family is a commandment from God...therefore by taking care of your family, that is a part of putting God first.   But if a question of loyalty to God vs. loyalty to family should come into play...loyalty to God comes first.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: yeshaberto on May 28, 2012, 09:48:52 PM
well put, jammin
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: rumborak on May 28, 2012, 10:13:52 PM
Interesting article on the topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_counsels

It's essentially CC interpretation without much scriptural basis that one can go to heaven without fulfilling the counsels. Actually, it always struck me that early post-Jesus Christianity caved under social pressure to be more lenient, in order to include existing family structures.

rumborak
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: Jaffa on May 28, 2012, 10:23:01 PM
Caring for the needs of your family is a commandment from God...therefore by taking care of your family, that is a part of putting God first.   But if a question of loyalty to God vs. loyalty to family should come into play...loyalty to God comes first.

So God's commandment is, 'care for the needs of your family until I tell you otherwise.'  Is that fair?  I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so if I'm wrong, sorry.  I'm just not sure I understand.
Title: Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
Post by: jammindude on May 28, 2012, 10:47:01 PM
Caring for the needs of your family is a commandment from God...therefore by taking care of your family, that is a part of putting God first.   But if a question of loyalty to God vs. loyalty to family should come into play...loyalty to God comes first.

So God's commandment is, 'care for the needs of your family until I tell you otherwise.'  Is that fair?  I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so if I'm wrong, sorry.  I'm just not sure I understand.

Caring for ones family would include not just physically, but spiritually as well.  So it's not really "until I say otherwise".   Worship of God is supposed to be something that involves the entire family, with the father taking the lead for the household.  (not a Sunday school teacher)   It is a father's responsibility to set a good example, care for his family's needs emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually.  And take the lead in teaching the children about God's Word.   

"And these words that I am commanding you today must prove to be on your heart; and you must inculcate them in your son and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up." (Duet 6:6,7)

So even taking care of your family is not to the EXCLUSION of putting God first.   Worship of God is central to the family's daily lives.    If a family member chooses to not be a part of that any more.   That's where Jesus' counsel that you must put God first.   And Jesus did point out that putting God first *absolutely would* divide families in that type of a situation.   Ideally, it would be nice if the family was united in worship...but everyone has free will.   And even Satan was a righteous angel before he rebelled.   So even a perfect parent like God cannot stop free moral agents from making bad decisions if that is what they desire to do.