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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: 73109 on February 21, 2011, 10:42:36 AM
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So, I'm doing some homework about the Scientific Revolution and I come to Copernicus and Brahe and Kepler. In case anyone does not know who these dudes are, they basically discovered the Earth revolved around the sun in an orbit and spun every day. Basically...what goes on in our solar system. This did not suit the church mainly because everything they had thought was a lie. "The Earth was no longer the center of God's creation. There was no longer fixed, heavenly location for God's throne. The perfection of the universe-with the earth at the center of a series of fixed, concentric, crystalline circles ion which the planets traveled-was contaminated."
Now, we are smarter, and thankfully, the church is smarter, but I ask you. If heaven exists where God places all his homies, where is it?
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I'm not religious but I don't see why it should be a physical place. If spirits exist, why wouldn't a non-worldy place?
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This is not me trying to disprove religion. This is me actually asking for opinions.
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In a deeeeluxe apartment in the skyyyyyyyyyy.
-J
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It's actually in Saskatchewan. I know, I was surprised too.
But for a serious answer, the typical notion is that it's not a physical location in this universe.
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When the idea of heaven was created, it was synonymous with the firmament. In German we to this day only have one word for the two separate things, heaven and sky (both are "Himmel").
What the current churches have consoled themselves to in the face of astronomical advances, is probably rather irrelevant.
rumborak
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If heaven exists, its in a place of existence completely removed from our physical actuality.
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it is similar to asking where does the wind exist
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When the idea of heaven was created, it was synonymous with the firmament. In German we to this day only have one word for the two separate things, heaven and sky (both are "Himmel").
What the current churches have consoled themselves to in the face of astronomical advances, is probably rather irrelevant.
rumborak
Interesting. Over here (Netherlands) we can also use that word for both heaven and the sky (hemel) but we do have a seperate word for sky as well (which is used most of the time, although 'hemel' isn't uncommon').
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it is similar to asking where does the wind exist
In any place in the atmosphere that there is a non-zero pressure gradient?
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it is similar to asking where does the wind exist
Anywhere in the cosmos where there is an atmosphere and varying temperatures?
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can't pull anything past you guys :lol
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I can't say I followed that comparison anyway. How is wind similar to heaven?
rumborak
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Scripture defines heaven as a physical place that can be seen and touched and where people with material bodies reside with God. It also reveals to us that it is a realm not confined to an area by standard dimensions, or boundaries. In Isaiah it says that God inhabits eternity, so I think this means his dwelling is beyond physical limitations, and is beyond what we are capable of undertanding that concept to be. My grandfather used to say to questions like this: "It's beyond what Earthly minds can imagine." Good enough for me.
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I can't say I followed that comparison anyway. How is wind similar to heaven?
rumborak
in biblical language (both hebrew and greek), they are the same term. heaven is in the "spiritual" realm which is the term for wind in both languages. both are invisible, both are real, both are powerful, etc
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I can't say I followed that comparison anyway. How is wind similar to heaven?
rumborak
in biblical language (both hebrew and greek), they are the same term. heaven is in the "spiritual" realm which is the term for wind in both languages. both are invisible, both are real, both are powerful, etc
The hebrew word for heaven is Shamaim, the hebrew word for wind is rooach. They aren't interchangable.
EDIT: Perhaps instead of Wind, you mean Sky, which would be the same word for heaven. But rumby already pointed that (for german at least).
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I was referring to term spiritual. heaven is not a part of the physical realm, but the spiritual realm. like the wind it is immaterial, invisible, etc
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I was referring to term spiritual. heaven is not a part of the physical realm, but the spiritual realm. like the wind it is immaterial, invisible, etc
Oh I gotcha, yea wind and spirit can be used with the same word. But it's more to connect the idea of the spirit to the wind, not a spiritual realm.
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I was referring to term spiritual. heaven is not a part of the physical realm, but the spiritual realm. like the wind it is immaterial, invisible, etc
Oh I gotcha, yea wind and spirit can be used with the same word. But it's more to connect the idea of the spirit to the wind, not a spiritual realm.
now that you mention it, I can't think of the term "spiritual" ever being used in the tanach. so maybe the connection is just in the new testament. I know in greek spirit and spiritual are rooted in same term.
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My grandfather used to say to questions like this: "It's beyond what Earthly minds can imagine." Good enough for me.
I heard stuff like this when I was a kid, and it was probably one of the key elements that turned me away from religion.
rumborak
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My grandfather used to say to questions like this: "It's beyond what Earthly minds can imagine." Good enough for me.
I heard stuff like this when I was a kid, and it was probably one of the key elements that turned me away from religion.
rumborak
Same here, believing something without even the slightest bit of evidence. It just seemed foolish to me.
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between iran and iraq i think. i forget the exact location.
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My grandfather used to say to questions like this: "It's beyond what Earthly minds can imagine." Good enough for me.
I heard stuff like this when I was a kid, and it was probably one of the key elements that turned me away from religion.
rumborak
Same here, believing something without even the slightest bit of evidence. It just seemed foolish to me.
Well that, but it was also clear that people were using their authority to shut up the questioners. And every time that happens, you know they're not too convinced of it themselves either.
rumborak
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between iran and iraq i think. i forget the exact location.
You're thinking Eden. That place is somewhat specified due to the rivers that comes out of Eden. Only problem is that the rivers don't run the way as described in the OT.
Besides, we all know Eden is in Missouri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Eden#Jackson_County.2C_Missouri.2C_North_America).
rumborak
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@ the OP: there is no answer to your question.
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@ the OP: there is no answer to your question.
If it exists, it has to be somewhere....
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@ the OP: there is no answer to your question.
If it exists, it has to be somewhere....
Does love exist? Where is it?
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Love isn't a place in which we are suppose to spend enternity. Love is a feeling, an emotion, an instinct embedded in the genome of every human. It can also be a verb used to describe the act of a penis entering a vagina.
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It can also be a verb used to describe the act of a penis entering a vagina.
I think we've just inadvertently stumbled upon the most concise statement explaining why you are still single.
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@ the OP: there is no answer to your question.
If it exists, it has to be somewhere....
I don't see why this has to be true at all, we're talking about a 'location' where souls go, not physical people.
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If God is real, and he lives in heaven, heaven must be real.
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No one said he or haven't aren't real--only that they aren't physical. Do you not see the difference?
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I don't see the difference. I'm not being a dick, I truely don't see the difference.
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I agree with the last few posters here actually. If whatever goes to heaven isn't physical (given that the body remains, that is then to be expected), then heaven doesn't have to be a physical place.
My point is rather that that definition of heaven is a fairly recent one. Before that, heaven *did* have a location, and it was in the sky. Christianity had a lot of "borrowing" from Greek mythology, and the concept of Hades vs. Heaven was one of those.
rumborak
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My point is rather that that definition of heaven is a fairly recent one. Before that, heaven *did* have a location, and it was in the sky. Christianity had a lot of "borrowing" from Greek mythology, and the concept of Hades vs. Heaven was one of those.
rumborak, I have to disagree with this. With all due respect, you are confusing Catholic Middle Ages doctrine with what writings that pre-date that doctrine (both pre-NT Jewish scripture and the NT writings) actually say.
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I haven't read the bible to the extent that many of you have, but the first time heaven is mentioned in Genesis, in hebrew at least, it used to describe the sky.
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there is no doubt that people in general tend to think of heaven as up above us and hell as down below us. they also picture god as Colonel Sanders :lol
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there is no doubt that people in general tend to think of heaven as up above us and hell as down below us. they also picture god as Colonel Sanders George Burns. :lol
FTFY
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My point is rather that that definition of heaven is a fairly recent one. Before that, heaven *did* have a location, and it was in the sky. Christianity had a lot of "borrowing" from Greek mythology, and the concept of Hades vs. Heaven was one of those.
rumborak, I have to disagree with this. With all due respect, you are confusing Catholic Middle Ages doctrine with what writings that pre-date that doctrine (both pre-NT Jewish scripture and the NT writings) actually say.
Come on, dude. Look at Sheol and how it was commonly translated to Hades, or look at Lazarus and Abraham, and how they're separated by a river in hell. That just screams Styx.
rumborak
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I would be willing to argue the merits of this whole "it's some invisible spirit playground that can't be seen or touched or blah blah blah." I quote the respected philosopher B. J. Carlisle:
"Heaven is a place on Earth".
Alternately I'd argue that it could be pinpointed as having once been located in Christy Canyon's bedroom, circa 1986.
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My point is rather that that definition of heaven is a fairly recent one. Before that, heaven *did* have a location, and it was in the sky. Christianity had a lot of "borrowing" from Greek mythology, and the concept of Hades vs. Heaven was one of those.
rumborak, I have to disagree with this. With all due respect, you are confusing Catholic Middle Ages doctrine with what writings that pre-date that doctrine (both pre-NT Jewish scripture and the NT writings) actually say.
Come on, dude. Look at Sheol and how it was commonly translated to Hades, or look at Lazarus and Abraham, and how they're separated by a river in hell. That just screams Styx.
rumborak
??? Um...Sheol was translated into Greek--the dominant language at the time--as "hades," yes. I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove.
And, no, Abraham and Lazarus are neither in hell nor separated by a river. You are mistaken on that point.
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Actually, heaven is in a cornfield/baseball diamond in Iowa.
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@bosk: Zephaniah's Apocalypse disagrees with you. While not part of official Scripture, it strongly correlates with the Lazarus and the Rich Man parable, and it would be interesting to hear how you tease those apart, and how on the face of it, you can still maintain that Jewish mythology wasn't influenced by Greek.
rumborak
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I think you answered that.
not part of official Scripture
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Your belief system is a very shaky construct, bosk.
rumborak
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:lol If you say so. But I don't really follow the logic since, again, the book you are referring to has nothing to do with Christianity. You can infer all you like that I should somehow attempt to reconcile it with my beliefs, but there is no reason it should have any more impact on my beliefs than any other work of fiction that sounds like it might be remotely "Christian."
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Heaving is any sound that comes out of Morgan Freeman's mouth.
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Even something hurricane like.. like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDydSrIpZTY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDydSrIpZTY)
:neverusethis:
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Heaving is any sound that comes out of Morgan Freeman's mouth.
I've never heard Morgan Freeman heave.
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I don't see any reason why not to believe heaven is a real physical place. The Bible talks about it like it's a real place....so why not.
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I don't see any reason why not to believe heaven is a real physical place. The Bible talks about it like it's a real place....so why not.
I don't think they're saying it isn't real, just not physical.
-J
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Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident.
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@ the OP: there is no answer to your question.
If it exists, it has to be somewhere....
Does love exist? Where is it?
It exists in people's minds, just like god and heaven. People have different ideas about love as well as god and heaven. Ideas.
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Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident.
It depends on what you mean by "real." Is math real? Is science real?
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Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident.
It depends on what you mean by "real." Is math real? Is science real?
The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.
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Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident.
It depends on what you mean by "real." Is math real? Is science real?
The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.
Exactly. What you subjectively cannot experience can't really hurt you, so don't sweat it.
Sincerely,
Mr. Carbon Monoxide
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:lol
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Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident.
It depends on what you mean by "real." Is math real? Is science real?
The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.
Exactly. What you subjectively cannot experience can't really hurt you, so don't sweat it.
Sincerely,
Mr. Carbon Monoxide
nice play
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Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident.
It depends on what you mean by "real." Is math real? Is science real?
The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.
What does that have to do with what I asked?
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Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident.
It depends on what you mean by "real." Is math real? Is science real?
The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.
Exactly. What you subjectively cannot experience can't really hurt you, so don't sweat it.
Sincerely,
Mr. Carbon Monoxide
nice play
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-Carl Sagan-
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Great quote. Carl Sagan is my god.
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"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-Carl Sagan-
Given how much focus is put on the Creation by Christianity, it always struck me as weird how little interest people then have in understanding it. It's like getting a book, being excited about it, but then putting it to the side and never opening it. Isn't the best appreciation of a gift to actually use it?
rumborak
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I forget which old religion claims this; but it is my favorite.
The stars in the sky are "holes" through which the heavens shine through. The god's are on the other side of this spherical plane. :hat
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-Carl Sagan-
After seeing his Cosmos; I feel he is one of the greatest minds of his generation.
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Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident.
It depends on what you mean by "real." Is math real? Is science real?
The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.
What does that have to do with what I asked?
I thought you were trying to implying that we cannot know that those and other things are real.
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No, no, no, I don't buy that horseshit.
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What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can hear, what you can smell, taste and feel, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.
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What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can hear, what you can smell, taste and feel, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.
Isn't electrical signals interpreted by your brain basically all there is and all you are?
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Clearly you've never read the collected works of the great philosopher Morpheus.
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FREE YOUR MIND.
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Whoa.
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From a Christian perspective, I would argue that more important than the "location" of heaven is the fact of the new heaven and the new earth in God's restoration of all things:
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them as their God" (Revelation 21:1-3, NRSV).
That is to say, our ultimate communion with God will indeed be physical; this is a crucial aspect of why Jesus was resurrected that is often overlooked.
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I tried reading Revelation once, but kinda lost it at 4:8.
rumborak
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I tried reading Octavarium once, but kinda lost it at 5:8.
Fixed.
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I tried reading Revelation once, but kinda lost it at 4:8.
rumborak
It's great isn't it. What I find funny about all of it is that, for the most part, over the years the talking magical beasts are left out of the bible. All throughout the bible it's mostly morally messed up stuff; they go all out in Revelation.
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The four beasts show up in Ezekiel.
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I don't think it's particularly surprising that the author of Revelations (whoever he was) was familiar with Ezekiel.
Doesn't change the fact that they could use Revelations for one of those "Above the influence" ads.
"Hey John, you coming out tonight? There's live music tonight at the bar."
John: "Argh, I'm seeing beasts with six wings! And there's eyes everywhere! Lord help me!"
"k. Give me a call once you're off that shit. Whatever it was actually."
rumborak
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It's Revelation.
No S.
Ever.
But I :lol at your "Above The Influence" ad.
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It's always kind of funny whenever someone says Revelations (even in Christian study groups).
Rumborak spelled it correctly the first time, though, which is interesting. :lol
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It's always kind of funny whenever someone says Revelations (even in Christian study groups).
Rumborak spelled it correctly the first time, though, which is interesting. :lol
You're right. I don't know what got into him.