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General => Archive => Dream Theater-related => Topic started by: icysk8r on April 28, 2009, 05:49:43 PM
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personally, i hate him...
i just dont like what he did with the album.
he triggered mikes drums way too much...
and he also overdubbed acoustic guitar with electric, and that is impossible to play for real...
its just annoying
mike portnoy doesnt like what he did either
and he was pissed that he fucked with his drums so much.
i am too
i just dont like it at all
vote and discuss your side
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Well, yes. He triggered the snare, but he created DT's biggest album. So...I don't think much of that shit he gets from you is quite deserved.
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I like him and loathe him. On one hand I think the triggering on Images and Words was a big big mistake. On the other hand with that aside, he made Images and Words sound fantastic, and later made A Change of Seasons sound fantastic.
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For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.
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I like him and loathe him. On one hand I think the triggering on Images and Words was a big big mistake. On the other hand with that aside, he made Images and Words sound fantastic, and later made A Change of Seasons sound fantastic.
and also triggered drum parts there as well
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i just give him so much shit because i like it to sound like it would if they were playing it for you.
i mean, i understand the vocals need tuned and stuff, that is fine, but with the drum stuff, thats impossible to do...
i dont like impossibility in my songs, but that is just me
i love the albums
hate the triggered sounds
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For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.
so you think 7:23 to 8:03 of metropolis part 1 isnt bad?
that is one of many examples
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I like him and loathe him. On one hand I think the triggering on Images and Words was a big big mistake. On the other hand with that aside, he made Images and Words sound fantastic, and later made A Change of Seasons sound fantastic.
and also triggered drum parts there as well
=/
i just give him so much shit because i like it to sound like it would if they were playing it for you.
i mean, i understand the vocals need tuned and stuff, that is fine, but with the drum stuff, thats impossible to do...
i dont like impossibility in my songs, but that is just me
i love the albums
hate the triggered sounds
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Yeah we got that when you said it the first time.
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For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.
so you think 7:23 to 8:03 of metropolis part 1 isnt bad?
that is one of many examples
It doesn't bother me. Is it really that difficult to believe?
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For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.
so you think 7:23 to 8:03 of metropolis part 1 isnt bad?
that is one of many examples
It doesn't bother me. Is it really that difficult to believe?
my dad asked mp himself how to play it
mp said a lot of the snares are triggered and therefor it is impossible to play lie the album
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I like him and loathe him. On one hand I think the triggering on Images and Words was a big big mistake. On the other hand with that aside, he made Images and Words sound fantastic, and later made A Change of Seasons sound fantastic.
and also triggered drum parts there as well
=/
i just give him so much shit because i like it to sound like it would if they were playing it for you.
i mean, i understand the vocals need tuned and stuff, that is fine, but with the drum stuff, thats impossible to do...
i dont like impossibility in my songs, but that is just me
i love the albums
hate the triggered sounds
:\
Yeah we got that when you said it the first time.
no need to get mean
if you dont like what im saying
dont reply to the thread
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For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.
so you think 7:23 to 8:03 of metropolis part 1 isnt bad?
that is one of many examples
It doesn't bother me. Is it really that difficult to believe?
my dad asked mp himself how to play it
mp said a lot of the snares are triggered and therefor it is impossible to play lie the album
So?
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Well, yes. He triggered the snare, but he created DT's biggest album. So...I don't think much of that shit he gets from you is quite deserved.
:lol
Right on DL!
I got I&W damn near its release date, and I NEVER had a problem with it. It's the best album I HAVE EVER heard. Much too much has been made of this trigger thing.
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For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.
so you think 7:23 to 8:03 of metropolis part 1 isnt bad?
that is one of many examples
It doesn't bother me. Is it really that difficult to believe?
my dad asked mp himself how to play it
mp said a lot of the snares are triggered and therefor it is impossible to play lie the album
So?
maybe if you were a drummer you would understand
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I play drums (not amazingly). You're making too big a deal out of this.
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He forced JP to keep amazing solos that JP was ready to throw out cause they "weren't flashy enough". The one in Learning To Live starting at 7:10 and the Another World solo comes to mind. That gives him points in my book.
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He forced JP to keep amazing solos that JP was ready to throw out cause they "weren't flashy enough". The one in Learning To Live starting at 7:10 and the Another World solo comes to mind. That gives him points in my book.
and overdubbed acoustic and electric on another day
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Who fucking cares? Siamese Dreams has tons of overdubs and does that mean Butch Vig is a terrible producer because Smashing Pumpkins can't have 20-30 guitarists on stage?
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I play drums (not amazingly). You're making too big a deal out of this.
all i am doing is stating my opinion
next person who argues with me im just going to close the thread
because the thread didnt say
"argue with icysk8r"
it said "vote and discuss your side"
all i am doing is giving my point of view on the album
so dont argue
lets keep dtf a friendly place like it usually is...
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because the thread didnt say
"argue with icysk8r"
it said "vote and discuss your side"
People are trying to discuss their side, but you are not allowing for any opinion that differs from yours.
EDIT: And you don't need to report the same post 4 times. Once is enough.
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I'm sorry icysk8r but do you react this badly to everything?
We're trying to give our opinion but you pretty much say we're wrong every time.
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because the thread didnt say
"argue with icysk8r"
it said "vote and discuss your side"
People are trying to discuss their side, but you are not allowing for any opinion that differs from yours.
EDIT: And you don't need to report the same post 4 times. Once is enough.
sorry i didnt mean to do it 4 times, my computer froze so it clicked a few time
and i would appreciate if people would just state their side
not say
"who fucking cares"
and stuff like that
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I'm sorry icysk8r but do you react this badly to everything?
We're trying to give our opinion but you pretty much say we're wrong every time.
sorry
i was kinda pissed because i was playing metropolis part 1
and was getting mad i couldnt do the one part because it was overdubbed
so i was just venting i guess
you guys can say what you want now, i dont care,
i guess i was just over reacting a little
sorry,
-icysk8r :facepalm: :tup
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It's cool man. Just make sure you vent your anger at Nick next time. He deserves it.
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And, for the record, acidrainlite is the only person in the world who likes triggered drums. He's strange. And he has a very unfortunate real name. But just because the rest of us hate the drums doesn't mean we hate Prater altogether.
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I didn't say I liked them. More indifferent than anything.
And dammit bosk, accept my friend request on Facebook.
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No. I am frightened.
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I don't know anything about that guy except that he produced I&W and ACOS and had MP's drums triggered.
I don't like the triggered sound but it won't stop me from listening to the album.
But as a whole, I absolutely don't like the production on images and words. It's by far the cheesiest sounding DT album.
Just compare the difference in sound between Images and Awake. And compare Awake to ACOS and Awake sounds so much better.
I also have no idea what was David Prater's input on ACOS, but the studio version sounds so weak compared to the live version on Live Scenes and compared to the other bits played on OiaLT.
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No. I am frightened.
You accepted James' friend request :(
Edit: Dammit bosk :yeahright
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The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.
rumborak
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I always liked the snare on I&W...
edit: what's impossible about the part 7:23 - 8:03 on metropolis?
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I always liked the snare on I&W...
edit: what's impossible about the part 7:23 - 8:03 on metropolis?
I know, I always thought that I&W had a cool drum sound. It stayed where it belonged, in the background, not clouding up the atmosphere.
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The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.
rumborak
Absolutely this. It's no coincidence that Prater has produced DT's finest works.
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I'm no drummer, so anyone can explain to me why it's impossible to play it live?
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I always liked the snare on I&W...
edit: what's impossible about the part 7:23 - 8:03 on metropolis?
I know, I always thought that I&W had a cool drum sound. It stayed where it belonged, in the background, not clouding up the atmosphere.
Well see, that's my problem with the triggered snare. It doesn't allow for any inflections, any hit sounds the same. If one wanted to accentuate certain beats it wouldn't have mattered. It's not the biggest deal but for me the sound does kind of cut through annoyingly every once in a while.
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Given the experienced producer Prater is, I assume he had a solid reason to trigger the snare. I assume inconsistency issues.
rumborak
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Oy vey.
Triggered snares or not, Images & Words sounds amazing.
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I'm no drummer, so anyone can explain to me why it's impossible to play it live?
The reason icysk8r says it's impossible to play because how loud the hits are (because they're triggered)
Basically, when Portnoy plays it live, the majority of the snare hits are just ghost notes, much quieter than how the triggered hits are on the CD.
So, it's not exactly impossible per se, just extremely difficult to make it sound exactly the same as the album.
(I hate triggered drums for this reason. They can make it seem like the drummer has much more talent than they actually do, because with triggers, you can just barely graze the drum and it'll register as and sound like a full hit)
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David Prater is the fucking man and I wish he was still working with DT. I think the triggered snare fits the sound of the record fine. /serious response
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I'm no drummer, so anyone can explain to me why it's impossible to play it live?
The reason icysk8r says it's impossible to play because how loud the hits are (because they're triggered)
Basically, when Portnoy plays it live, the majority of the snare hits are just ghost notes, much quieter than how the triggered hits are on the CD.
So, it's not exactly impossible per se, just extremely difficult to make it sound exactly the same as the album.
(I hate triggered drums for this reason. They can make it seem like the drummer has much more talent than they actually do, because with triggers, you can just barely graze the drum and it'll register as and sound like a full hit.)
Now I understand. Thanks for the response.
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I like him and loathe him. On one hand I think the triggering on Images and Words was a big big mistake. On the other hand with that aside, he made Images and Words sound fantastic, and later made A Change of Seasons sound fantastic.
and also triggered drum parts there as well
=/
i just give him so much shit because i like it to sound like it would if they were playing it for you.
i mean, i understand the vocals need tuned and stuff, that is fine, but with the drum stuff, thats impossible to do...
i dont like impossibility in my songs, but that is just me
i love the albums
hate the triggered sounds
:\
Yeah we got that when you said it the first time.
no need to get mean
if you dont like what im saying
dont reply to the thread
Not being mean.
But if you can't take criticism for people disagreeing with your opinion, you dont need to restate your opinion. Its not going to change their minds.
And honestly dude, you've been here less than a month and you've complained about a thousand things.
Im not trying to hassle you for being a noob (cuz it happened to me too), but you need to know your place. Its fine to make a name for yourself around here, but posting a dozen times on your own thread saying the exact same thing is hardly the way to earn respect.
Because respect is earned by not wearing a shirt :P
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When I read the official book I thought Prater was a total jerk, with a huge ego. But listening to I&W I have no problem with the triggered snare, or anything else soundwise on that album. So I kind of have mixed feelings about this guy.
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I don't really care about him. He did a great job on Images as a producer, and the triggered snare and kick drum doesn't bother me.
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Yeah, the descriptions in the book make him sound like a douche. But I like the way I&W and ACOS sound. So, not my place to whine. :P
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I'd still trust an outside producers' opinion on DT's music over Portnoy's any day. Except maybe Bob Rock. Fuck him.
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The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.
rumborak
That's a pretty weak stab at Portnoy, dude.
He doesn't like the snare, so he's mentioned it when it's relevant (like the commentary on the DVD showing them recording them album). If it weren't Portnoy, you'd think nothing of the exact same comments.
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I don't think Rumborak's got anything against Portnoy, it's just that Portnoy would definitely overreact to something like that.
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Well he's not talking about "would", he's quite clearly talking about "did", so unfortunately facts are required for that to hold up.
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I'm guessing that's part of the book, which I know you haven't read either. Knowing how Portnoy reacts to things it wouldn't surprise me.
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Well I prefer to use facts rather than make assumptions. If he said something in the book, I'd like to know what it is before I get carried away and believe hype. Not that I'm denying it, just saying that based on what I know, I don't believe he's taken any stabs at Prater just because of some powerplay.
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Prater comes across as an absolute dick in Lifting Shadows, often insulting a lot of the members with very harsh words. That said, the albums sound great for the most part. The snare does grate with me at parts (the quiet parts on Learning To Live come to mind) but most of the time you forget about it and just listen to the music.
Also, JP has overdubbed acoustic and electric parts on many MANY songs, probably more so as the albums go on. It sounds cool. :tup
Which parts of ACOS are triggered? I remember reading (I think in Lifting Shadows again) that one of the terms Prater was told when he went to work on it that NO triggering was allowed because the band hated it so much. ???
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I don't really care about him. He did a great job on Images as a producer, and the triggered snare and kick drum doesn't bother me.
Same here, and with ACOS too, I have mixed feelings about him too (like Zydar).
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No. I am frightened.
LOL :rollin
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...
I always liked the snare on I&W...
edit: what's impossible about the part 7:23 - 8:03 on metropolis?
because its impossible to play patterns on the ride and hihat and some crashes all while filling on the snare.
he hits the snare waaaaay too many times for it to be possible...
maybe if he had 3 arms :rollin
which with the way mike portnoy plays, i wouldnt doubt it
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well anything is possible when MP sits behind the drums :D
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I like him and loathe him. On one hand I think the triggering on Images and Words was a big big mistake. On the other hand with that aside, he made Images and Words sound fantastic, and later made A Change of Seasons sound fantastic.
and also triggered drum parts there as well
=/
i just give him so much shit because i like it to sound like it would if they were playing it for you.
i mean, i understand the vocals need tuned and stuff, that is fine, but with the drum stuff, thats impossible to do...
i dont like impossibility in my songs, but that is just me
i love the albums
hate the triggered sounds
:\
Yeah we got that when you said it the first time.
no need to get mean
if you dont like what im saying
dont reply to the thread
Not being mean.
But if you can't take criticism for people disagreeing with your opinion, you dont need to restate your opinion. Its not going to change their minds.
And honestly dude, you've been here less than a month and you've complained about a thousand things.
Im not trying to hassle you for being a noob (cuz it happened to me too), but you need to know your place. Its fine to make a name for yourself around here, but posting a dozen times on your own thread saying the exact same thing is hardly the way to earn respect.
Because respect is earned by not wearing a shirt :P
lol
i already apologized for this
=p
:rollin
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When I read the official book I thought Prater was a total jerk, with a huge ego.
Of course he is a jerk with a huge ego. That is why he is a successful producer.
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I'm no drummer, so anyone can explain to me why it's impossible to play it live?
The reason icysk8r says it's impossible to play because how loud the hits are (because they're triggered)
Basically, when Portnoy plays it live, the majority of the snare hits are just ghost notes, much quieter than how the triggered hits are on the CD.
So, it's not exactly impossible per se, just extremely difficult to make it sound exactly the same as the album.
(I hate triggered drums for this reason. They can make it seem like the drummer has much more talent than they actually do, because with triggers, you can just barely graze the drum and it'll register as and sound like a full hit)
Well I can't stand the way that part sounds live, so I'm all for the triggered snare if that's what it takes. And honestly, I've watched him play that part on several different DVDs and he could hit that snare harder if he wanted to, it doesn't look like he's having a difficult time with it.
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The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.
rumborak
That's a pretty weak stab at Portnoy, dude.
He doesn't like the snare, so he's mentioned it when it's relevant (like the commentary on the DVD showing them recording them album). If it weren't Portnoy, you'd think nothing of the exact same comments.
If he had made an off-the-cuff remark at some point, sure, I wouldn't think about it. But MP did it often and consistent enough that even Prater, who hardly hangs on MP's words, got inundated with it enough to feel forced to reply. And according to Lifting Shadows, Prater saw the situation before as a kind of cease-fire ("I kept my mouth shut for 15 years, why couldn't you?!").
If MP's comments about the snare really had been off-the-cuff, we wouldn't have leagues of n00bs starting threads about how they dislike Prater.
My bottom line is: If it takes a triggered snare here and there, but in return I get an awesome-sounding album like IAW, instead of something like ToT and SC, bring in the triggered snares.
rumborak
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The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.
rumborak
That's a pretty weak stab at Portnoy, dude.
He doesn't like the snare, so he's mentioned it when it's relevant (like the commentary on the DVD showing them recording them album). If it weren't Portnoy, you'd think nothing of the exact same comments.
If he had made an off-the-cuff remark at some point, sure, I wouldn't think about it. But MP did it often and consistent enough that even Prater, who hardly hangs on MP's words, got inundated with it enough to feel forced to reply. And according to Lifting Shadows, Prater saw the situation before as a kind of cease-fire ("I kept my mouth shut for 15 years, why couldn't you?!").
If MP's comments about the snare really had been off-the-cuff, we wouldn't have leagues of n00bs starting threads about how they dislike Prater.
My bottom line is: If it takes a triggered snare here and there, but in return I get an awesome-sounding album like IAW, instead of something like ToT and SC, bring in the triggered snares.
rumborak
Can you list all these apparent comments MP has made about Prater? Before the book (I haven't read the book, feel free to inform me), he has only made a passing reference in context to hating the snare sound, and never about Prater personally other than mentioning it was his decision, and there was no malice in his comments. Unless he has made more comments I'm unaware of, then in the book they're on even ground. The reason we have this ONE thread about David prater is because nobody likes the triggered snare sound, and any fan who has listened to the commentary for LiT knows that is because of Prater. It only takes a passing comment by the band for the fans to take notice. JR made one reference at a music show about a choir sound and DT entering the gothic domain, and we had endless discussion about that too. It doesn't take much to spark discussion here.
I personally love the triggered snare (although I'd love to hear it with a natural snare like LiT sound), so I have nothing against him, and IaW is a great sounding album, but by all accounts the guy is a bigger jerk than MP is, so I wouldn't take his word on anything.
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Didn't they update some of the I&W songs for the Greatest Hit package without the triggered snare? Did some 2007 remixes?
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The whole "triggered snare" thing is nothing but an ego war. MP has a huge ego, and so does Prater. Problem is, Prater is also a brilliant producer. So, MP can't live with the fact that the guy who defied him constantly in the studio, at the same time delivered DT's most beloved album. So, he uses his media outlet to take shots at Prater for something as completely asinine as a triggered snare.
Point in case, Prater apparently also triggered drums in ACOS. Only that MP never noticed.
rumborak
That's a pretty weak stab at Portnoy, dude.
He doesn't like the snare, so he's mentioned it when it's relevant (like the commentary on the DVD showing them recording them album). If it weren't Portnoy, you'd think nothing of the exact same comments.
If he had made an off-the-cuff remark at some point, sure, I wouldn't think about it. But MP did it often and consistent enough that even Prater, who hardly hangs on MP's words, got inundated with it enough to feel forced to reply. And according to Lifting Shadows, Prater saw the situation before as a kind of cease-fire ("I kept my mouth shut for 15 years, why couldn't you?!").
If MP's comments about the snare really had been off-the-cuff, we wouldn't have leagues of n00bs starting threads about how they dislike Prater.
My bottom line is: If it takes a triggered snare here and there, but in return I get an awesome-sounding album like IAW, instead of something like ToT and SC, bring in the triggered snares.
rumborak
Can you list all these apparent comments MP has made about Prater? Before the book (I haven't read the book, feel free to inform me), he has only made a passing reference in context to hating the snare sound, and never about Prater personally other than mentioning it was his decision, and there was no malice in his comments. Unless he has made more comments I'm unaware of, then in the book they're on even ground. The reason we have this ONE thread about David prater is because nobody likes the triggered snare sound, and any fan who has listened to the commentary for LiT knows that is because of Prater. It only takes a passing comment by the band for the fans to take notice. JR made one reference at a music show about a choir sound and DT entering the gothic domain, and we had endless discussion about that too. It doesn't take much to spark discussion here.
I personally love the triggered snare (although I'd love to hear it with a natural snare like LiT sound), so I have nothing against him, and IaW is a great sounding album, but by all accounts the guy is a bigger jerk than MP is, so I wouldn't take his word on anything.
i'm not sure if mp really hates him personally.
all i know is he hated what he did with his drums.
i dont have actual quotes.
i would find them, but im at school now, and sites are blocked
=/
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Didn't they update some of the I&W songs for the Greatest Hit package without the triggered snare? Did some 2007 remixes?
Another Day, Pull Me Under and Take The Time were on Greatest Hit remixed entirely. The bass and snare samples are entirely different, can't remember about the toms. Sounds very different.
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There is nothing wrong with the triggered snare or David Prater.
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:facepalm:
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Do I like David Prater personally? Don't know don't care
Do I like what David Prater did with I&W and ACOS? Yes
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Can you list all these apparent comments MP has made about Prater?
I don't exactly have a "quote library" lying around, no.
Before the book (I haven't read the book, feel free to inform me)
You should read it.
rumborak
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I'll definitely be buying the second edition when it comes out. Would have been nice to know if there was any evidence at all of MP making any comments towards Prater before then...
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I'll definitely be buying the second edition when it comes out. Would have been nice to know if there was any evidence at all of MP making any comments towards Prater before then...
I haven't come across any - though that doesn't mean they don't exist. I have found a few where JLB and JP were saying that they wouldn't want to work with Prater again (which were around 96 I think).
The way things worked on the book was that Prater was the first person I interviewed. He made those comments and the band (MP, JLB & JP) responded accordingly.
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Didn't they update some of the I&W songs for the Greatest Hit package without the triggered snare? Did some 2007 remixes?
Another Day, Pull Me Under and Take The Time were on Greatest Hit remixed entirely. The bass and snare samples are entirely different, can't remember about the toms. Sounds very different.
The kick drum on I&W is sampled? Ugh. It makes sense since the greatest hit kick drum is almost totally different, but still. The toms though I'm pretty sure are either not samples, or they used the same samples on the greatest hit version.
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Didn't they update some of the I&W songs for the Greatest Hit package without the triggered snare? Did some 2007 remixes?
Another Day, Pull Me Under and Take The Time were on Greatest Hit remixed entirely. The bass and snare samples are entirely different, can't remember about the toms. Sounds very different.
The kick drum on I&W is sampled? Ugh. It makes sense since the greatest hit kick drum is almost totally different, but still. The toms though I'm pretty sure are either not samples, or they used the same samples on the greatest hit version.
With the typical early 90s production, it can be hard to tell what's synthetic or not. I can't remember what the toms sound like on GH though, so I'll have to listen back. And I believe it was snare and bass that was sampled on IaW. Although with a kick drum it's easier to get away with and harder to tell the difference, but it sounds a lot ... "flippper" on IaW, if that makes sense? It sounds a lot sharper with more attack on GH, and I think it's beyond a basic remixing/EQ.
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Two points:
A) The chapters in Lifting Shadows with Prater were by far and away the most interesting chapters in the book.
B) The triggered snare issue is stupid.
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...
I always liked the snare on I&W...
edit: what's impossible about the part 7:23 - 8:03 on metropolis?
because its impossible to play patterns on the ride and hihat and some crashes all while filling on the snare.
he hits the snare waaaaay too many times for it to be possible...
maybe if he had 3 arms :rollin
which with the way mike portnoy plays, i wouldnt doubt it
umm this comment is rather noobish. I am going to assume you don't know much about the recording process and sampling a snare. A triggered snare is whenever portnoy hits the snare drum, it triggers a saved snare sound. Triggered snare does not mean the producer went in and started adding snare hits in there. So everytime you hear a snare on I&W, portnoy has hit his snare drum. Because the snare sound is the same on each hit, yes its impossible to make a drum sound exactly the same everytime, but definitely not impossible at all to play the song. Haven't you seen live versions? I really think you might be misunderstanding what the term triggered snare means.
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1)As an answer to the question... I never spoke to that guy, so how the hell could I know I like him.
2)Furthermore, the snare issue... WTH :facepalm: The album rocks, and these kind of triggers are so typical for the album... Couldn't think of the album without the "triggers"
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Yeah, I think the triggered snare givews I&W that early 90s quality that makes it so magical. The album's production is perfect as it is, as it truly defines the time they were living as musicians and the type of music they were writing at the time.
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Yeah, I think the triggered snare givews I&W that early 90s quality that makes it so magical. The album's production is perfect as it is, as it truly defines the time they were living as musicians and the type of music they were writing at the time.
thank you ^_^
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I'm no drummer, so anyone can explain to me why it's impossible to play it live?
The reason icysk8r says it's impossible to play because how loud the hits are (because they're triggered)
Basically, when Portnoy plays it live, the majority of the snare hits are just ghost notes, much quieter than how the triggered hits are on the CD.
So, it's not exactly impossible per se, just extremely difficult to make it sound exactly the same as the album.
(I hate triggered drums for this reason. They can make it seem like the drummer has much more talent than they actually do, because with triggers, you can just barely graze the drum and it'll register as and sound like a full hit)
because its impossible to play patterns on the ride and hihat and some crashes all while filling on the snare.
he hits the snare waaaaay too many times for it to be possible...
maybe if he had 3 arms :rollin
which with the way mike portnoy plays, i wouldnt doubt it
umm this comment is rather noobish. I am going to assume you don't know much about the recording process and sampling a snare. A triggered snare is whenever portnoy hits the snare drum, it triggers a saved snare sound. Triggered snare does not mean the producer went in and started adding snare hits in there. So everytime you hear a snare on I&W, portnoy has hit his snare drum. Because the snare sound is the same on each hit, yes its impossible to make a drum sound exactly the same everytime, but definitely not impossible at all to play the song. Haven't you seen live versions? I really think you might be misunderstanding what the term triggered snare means.
Just putting my explanation and 7StringedBeast's good explanation together so it's easier for people to understand.
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I quite like the feel the snare gives to the album.
I haven't read the book but from what I've heard Prater reacted in an overly harsh and immature way (trusting that I'm remembering the right section) to comments by the band members. He should be professional enough to accept that not everyone he works with will appreciate his work or his work ethic. But like I said I'm not privy to exactly what happened between the band and Prater.
As a producer I have nothing but respect for the man.
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If he had made an off-the-cuff remark at some point, sure, I wouldn't think about it. But MP did it often and consistent enough that even Prater, who hardly hangs on MP's words, got inundated with it enough to feel forced to reply. And according to Lifting Shadows, Prater saw the situation before as a kind of cease-fire ("I kept my mouth shut for 15 years, why couldn't you?!").
If MP's comments about the snare really had been off-the-cuff, we wouldn't have leagues of n00bs starting threads about how they dislike Prater.
Well, it's easy for Prater to keep his mouth shut for 15 years, he decided to trigger the drums and has his way with it, what is it for him to complain? On the other hand, Portnoy has every right to be pissed at that guy for screwing up his work.
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Not rushing to Prater's defense but using a book written about/from the perspective of Dream Theater might be a little, what's the word, biased. Lifting Shadows shows a producer who the band had problems with as a dick? No fucking way.
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Why would he have to be pissed because his work was "screwed" in DT's so-called milestone? The album that created their fanbase, the album that gave them recognition around the world?
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Not rushing to Prater's defense but using a book written about/from the perspective of Dream Theater might be a little, what's the word, biased. Lifting Shadows shows a producer who the band had problems with as a dick? No fucking way.
While I haven't read it, I would assume that Rich Wilson has put Prater's words as they were said without making his own biased comments about him. Hopefully people who read it could make the distinction either way.
Not to mention that there are going to be people here who haven't read the book whose hate for him stems only from a triggered snare of all things.
This thread is really building my interest in the book (but I'm gonna wait until the second edition before I get it)
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Same. Isn't the first edition out of print anyways?
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I actually haven't checked. I know there was a paperback edition. Was that available online though, or only at the shows?
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If he had made an off-the-cuff remark at some point, sure, I wouldn't think about it. But MP did it often and consistent enough that even Prater, who hardly hangs on MP's words, got inundated with it enough to feel forced to reply. And according to Lifting Shadows, Prater saw the situation before as a kind of cease-fire ("I kept my mouth shut for 15 years, why couldn't you?!").
If MP's comments about the snare really had been off-the-cuff, we wouldn't have leagues of n00bs starting threads about how they dislike Prater.
Well, it's easy for Prater to keep his mouth shut for 15 years, he decided to trigger the drums and has his way with it, what is it for him to complain? On the other hand, Portnoy has every right to be pissed at that guy for screwing up his work.
I kind of agree with this. Overall the I&W has a great sound but the triggered snare and bass drums have kinda a cheesy, '80's sound to them. Which reminds me of too many "hair metal" bands back in the day.
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If he had made an off-the-cuff remark at some point, sure, I wouldn't think about it. But MP did it often and consistent enough that even Prater, who hardly hangs on MP's words, got inundated with it enough to feel forced to reply. And according to Lifting Shadows, Prater saw the situation before as a kind of cease-fire ("I kept my mouth shut for 15 years, why couldn't you?!").
If MP's comments about the snare really had been off-the-cuff, we wouldn't have leagues of n00bs starting threads about how they dislike Prater.
Well, it's easy for Prater to keep his mouth shut for 15 years, he decided to trigger the drums and has his way with it, what is it for him to complain? On the other hand, Portnoy has every right to be pissed at that guy for screwing up his work.
I kind of agree with this. Overall the I&W has a great sound but the triggered snare and bass drums have kinda a cheesy, '80's sound to them. Which reminds me of too many "hair metal" bands back in the day.
Which is probably why I love the sound of that album so much :metal :lol
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Pfft. I still haven't read my copy of Lifting Shadows.
The snare sounds fine.
Blob, we are talking about MP. He overreacts constantly, I mean, rumbo summed up all of my thoughts. He'll complain about every little thing if it isn't going his way.
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True but it's not like he's written a song about it or anythi-
...oh shit.
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I actually like that song :P
My main problem with MP is that he doesn't think he needs a producer or any outside ideas because he is able to do it himself (and JP), he's not that good. If he wants to do it, fine, but ideas outside of two people often bring new life to something.
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Pfft. I still haven't read my copy of Lifting Shadows.
The snare sounds fine.
Blob, we are talking about MP. He overreacts constantly, I mean, rumbo summed up all of my thoughts. He'll complain about every little thing if it isn't going his way.
Well that's the thing. People use this generalization to assume it's all MP's fault without regard for all the facts. The first time I know of MP mentioning his dislike for the IaW snare is on the LiT commentary. That was 12 years after the album was made. The next time that I know of was the book, and I haven't even seen any quotes MP apparently overreacting. Since Prater was apparently interviewed first, then unless Prater has seen LiT with commentary (which I would highly doubt), then anyone he said in the book about DT/MP was unprovoked by anything MP has said prior. Then again there was a quote in the thread about Prater asking why MP couldn't leave it alone, but unless he was told about the commentary in the interview, then I don't know what he was reacting to. Anyone want to actually use some evidence here rather than lay blame on MP without backing it up?
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Pfft. I still haven't read my copy of Lifting Shadows.
The snare sounds fine.
Blob, we are talking about MP. He overreacts constantly, I mean, rumbo summed up all of my thoughts. He'll complain about every little thing if it isn't going his way.
Well, considering that he's the musician behind the drumkit, why would he not complain about anything that doesn't go his way when it comes to the recording of HIS drum performance?
Also, can someone honestly say that the live versions of Learning to Live on LSFNY and UAGM on Score don't sound better than on the cd? It's surprising how good those songs sound when the whole triggered drum cheese factor is gone.
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The Learning to Live on Live Scenes sounds worse than the CD for reasons that far outweigh any good caused by not having triggered drums.
And Blob the level to which you're vehemently defending Portnoy is getting a bit ridiculous. You don't need to say "Where's the proof? Where's the proof?" in every post.
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I prefer the triggered snare to the natural drum, actually. My be because I'm used to it, but it just sounds better to my ear.
If Portnoy wanted to have a natural drum so much, he could have just told Prater to fuck off. The band was Prater's boss, not the other way around.
Blob, I'm not getting specifics, and he may have only complained as you described. The point is that Portnoy has a huge ego, which could be a bad or good thing.
And I agree with orcus, you don't need to become so defensive.
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The Learning to Live on Live Scenes sounds worse than the CD for reasons that far outweigh any good caused by not having triggered drums.
And Blob the level to which you're vehemently defending Portnoy is getting a bit ridiculous. You don't need to say "Where's the proof? Where's the proof?" in every post.
Vehemently defending Portnoy? :lol
Dude, I'm just asking for some backup for complete opposite sentiment of ZOMG PORTNOY WON"T SHUT UP ABOUT THIS.
Seriously, grow up. I'm not blindly defending Portnoy at all here. If you check, I'm not putting down Prater here either. In fact, I'm probably being the most neutral here.
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Pfft. I still haven't read my copy of Lifting Shadows.
The snare sounds fine.
Blob, we are talking about MP. He overreacts constantly, I mean, rumbo summed up all of my thoughts. He'll complain about every little thing if it isn't going his way.
Well that's the thing. People use this generalization to assume it's all MP's fault without regard for all the facts. The first time I know of MP mentioning his dislike for the IaW snare is on the LiT commentary. That was 12 years after the album was made. The next time that I know of was the book, and I haven't even seen any quotes MP apparently overreacting. Since Prater was apparently interviewed first, then unless Prater has seen LiT with commentary (which I would highly doubt), then anyone he said in the book about DT/MP was unprovoked by anything MP has said prior. Then again there was a quote in the thread about Prater asking why MP couldn't leave it alone, but unless he was told about the commentary in the interview, then I don't know what he was reacting to. Anyone want to actually use some evidence here rather than lay blame on MP without backing it up?
Issues about whether or not the band can/should benefit from an outside producer's input aside, Blob's post is pretty much dead on.
The band was Prater's boss, not the other way around.
What??? Not in 1991-1992, they weren't. :lol
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The Learning to Live on Live Scenes sounds worse than the CD for reasons that far outweigh any good caused by not having triggered drums.
And Blob the level to which you're vehemently defending Portnoy is getting a bit ridiculous. You don't need to say "Where's the proof? Where's the proof?" in every post.
Vehemently defending Portnoy? :lol
Dude, I'm just asking for some backup for complete opposite sentiment of ZOMG PORTNOY WON"T SHUT UP ABOUT THIS.
Seriously, grow up. I'm not blindly defending Portnoy at all here. If you check, I'm not putting down Prater here either. In fact, I'm probably being the most neutral here.
I dunno.
I don't like all this Portnoy bashing either. It seems like there are a select few members who love bashing the guy. But wherever there's Portnoy criticism, there you are questioning it, even if it's calm and fair (although, here I think people are going kind of ape-shit).
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If Portnoy wanted to have a natural drum so much, he could have just told Prater to fuck off. The band was Prater's boss, not the other way around.
I flat out don't think this is true. DT was nothing at the time. The label obviously wanted to cooperate with the band, which is why they let them record stuff like Metropolis and LTL. But the label had the final word (which is why ACOS wasn't on I&W) and Prater had to answer to them.
Well, considering that he's the musician behind the drumkit, why would he not complain about anything that doesn't go his way when it comes to the recording of HIS drum performance?
I agree with this. MP seems to really hate it, so naturally there'd be bad blood with the person responsible.
Also, you have to remember the stuff that was said about Prater busting on KM's keyboard tracks for no good reason. I'm not sure how true that claim is (I haven't read Lifting Shadows, can't judge), but Prater doesn't have a bad reputation just because MP didn't like the triggered snare.
All that said, I do wish DT would work with a producer again. Maybe after working with Paul Northfield enough times they'd let him do it. Awake is a great example of how good producers can elevate material (the sound of the album is really defined by how it was recorded and the mix, which the producers were responsible for). Some of the production decisions on FII sucked, but some of them were very good as well. Art needs outside criticism to be good, which is what a producer is supposed to provide.
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The Learning to Live on Live Scenes sounds worse than the CD for reasons that far outweigh any good caused by not having triggered drums.
And Blob the level to which you're vehemently defending Portnoy is getting a bit ridiculous. You don't need to say "Where's the proof? Where's the proof?" in every post.
Vehemently defending Portnoy? :lol
Dude, I'm just asking for some backup for complete opposite sentiment of ZOMG PORTNOY WON"T SHUT UP ABOUT THIS.
Seriously, grow up. I'm not blindly defending Portnoy at all here. If you check, I'm not putting down Prater here either. In fact, I'm probably being the most neutral here.
I dunno.
I don't like all this Portnoy bashing either. It seems like there are a select few members who love bashing the guy. But wherever there's Portnoy criticism, there you are questioning it, even if it's calm and fair (although, here I think people are going kind of ape-shit).
Well I don't what the problem is with questioning it if it's fair. I'm not even saying MP is right here, I'm just asking for some more info so I can make up my mind based on the facts. As I haven't read the book, it would be unwise to take sides, but at the same time, I think people are exaggerating a bit on the fault of MP here.
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I didn't like how he used triggers on the album...
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I think that you're coming off badly in all this questioning for evidence, though. Like, didn't you ask Rumby to go back and find exact quotes from the DT book to prove what he was saying? You're basically telling everyone you're arguing with that their word is worth nothing at face value. I could totally understand if, for the sake of fair discussion, if someone said "MP always overreacts! He's bashed so many people!" if you wanted examples, but when someone says, "In the DT book, MP bashed David Prater a lot when he probably didn't need to", and you suddenly want exact quotes to prove it, it's a little... I don't know... disrespectful? Unreasonable maybe?
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I think that you're coming off badly in all this questioning for evidence, though. Like, didn't you ask Rumby to go back and find exact quotes from the DT book to prove what he was saying? You're basically telling everyone you're arguing with that their word is worth nothing at face value. I could totally understand if, for the sake of fair discussion, if someone said "MP always overreacts! He's bashed so many people!" if you wanted examples, but when someone says, "In the DT book, MP bashed David Prater a lot when he probably didn't need to", and you suddenly want exact quotes to prove it, it's a little... I don't know... disrespectful? Unreasonable maybe?
Coming of badly? Is asking for proof from the very source of information people are discussing here unreasonable?
Well I was more interested in MP's comments before the book. You'll have to excuse me for not taking certain people's word when a few of them are notorious for exaggerating the facts when MP is concerned (I won't go into details there), but the main issue I'm addressing is people saying MP hasn't shut up about this and always brings it up without reason. And what I ask is, book aside, had he made any comment regarding Prater? I found one post on his forum about Prater in a thread about Prater, which was about the book which we can count as bringing it up without need (even if it was in an existing thread), and he made a passing comment on LiT that he doesn't like the triggered snare, and doesn't mention Prater's name at all as far as i recall. So that leaves a 13+ year gap of silence, then the book, then one mention to the book.
Since I don't know what MP or Prater said in the book, that really leaves nothing.
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The only other place that comes to mind is the liner notes for the I&W demos, and I don't recall specifically what was said there. But, to your point, Blob, I don't find anything there to be unreasonable either since, by nature, Mike is commenting on how the band originally recorded the songs versus how the final album recordings turned out, and what (or who) in the recording process caused them to be different.
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I think that you're coming off badly in all this questioning for evidence, though. Like, didn't you ask Rumby to go back and find exact quotes from the DT book to prove what he was saying? You're basically telling everyone you're arguing with that their word is worth nothing at face value. I could totally understand if, for the sake of fair discussion, if someone said "MP always overreacts! He's bashed so many people!" if you wanted examples, but when someone says, "In the DT book, MP bashed David Prater a lot when he probably didn't need to", and you suddenly want exact quotes to prove it, it's a little... I don't know... disrespectful? Unreasonable maybe?
Coming of badly? Is asking for proof from the very source of information people are discussing here unreasonable?
Well I was more interested in MP's comments before the book. You'll have to excuse me for not taking certain people's word when a few of them are notorious for exaggerating the facts when MP is concerned (I won't go into details there), but the main issue I'm addressing is people saying MP hasn't shut up about this and always brings it up without reason. And what I ask is, book aside, had he made any comment regarding Prater? I found one post on his forum about Prater in a thread about Prater, which was about the book which we can count as bringing it up without need (even if it was in an existing thread), and he made a passing comment on LiT that he doesn't like the triggered snare, and doesn't mention Prater's name at all as far as i recall. So that leaves a 13+ year gap of silence, then the book, then one mention to the book.
Since I don't know what MP or Prater said in the book, that really leaves nothing.
When you start asking for proof as specific as exact quotes from a huge book, yes, I think that it does start to look bad because you're saying that certain people's words are shit. If you think that some people have lost the right to be believed, I guess that's understandable, but still, this is an internet forum, not an interrogation.
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I think that you're coming off badly in all this questioning for evidence, though. Like, didn't you ask Rumby to go back and find exact quotes from the DT book to prove what he was saying? You're basically telling everyone you're arguing with that their word is worth nothing at face value. I could totally understand if, for the sake of fair discussion, if someone said "MP always overreacts! He's bashed so many people!" if you wanted examples, but when someone says, "In the DT book, MP bashed David Prater a lot when he probably didn't need to", and you suddenly want exact quotes to prove it, it's a little... I don't know... disrespectful? Unreasonable maybe?
Coming of badly? Is asking for proof from the very source of information people are discussing here unreasonable?
Well I was more interested in MP's comments before the book. You'll have to excuse me for not taking certain people's word when a few of them are notorious for exaggerating the facts when MP is concerned (I won't go into details there), but the main issue I'm addressing is people saying MP hasn't shut up about this and always brings it up without reason. And what I ask is, book aside, had he made any comment regarding Prater? I found one post on his forum about Prater in a thread about Prater, which was about the book which we can count as bringing it up without need (even if it was in an existing thread), and he made a passing comment on LiT that he doesn't like the triggered snare, and doesn't mention Prater's name at all as far as i recall. So that leaves a 13+ year gap of silence, then the book, then one mention to the book.
Since I don't know what MP or Prater said in the book, that really leaves nothing.
When you start asking for proof as specific as exact quotes from a huge book, yes, I think that it does start to look bad because you're saying that certain people's words are shit. If you think that some people have lost the right to be believed, I guess that's understandable, but still, this is an internet forum, not an interrogation.
I understand that, but I'm really not asking much. People make a bold claim, I question it, they back it up. This is how discussion works. I'm not interrogating, even some basic paraphrasing of the general gist of what MP said in the book would be nice (and Prater for that matter). I think it starts to look bad if people start accusing me because I ask for some backup to their argument of MP never shutting up about Prater, which is as of yet pretty dubious considering I've seen no mention of MP bad-mouthing Prater other than the book. I know this is only a forum, but still.........
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...
I always liked the snare on I&W...
edit: what's impossible about the part 7:23 - 8:03 on metropolis?
because its impossible to play patterns on the ride and hihat and some crashes all while filling on the snare.
he hits the snare waaaaay too many times for it to be possible...
maybe if he had 3 arms :rollin
which with the way mike portnoy plays, i wouldnt doubt it
umm this comment is rather noobish. I am going to assume you don't know much about the recording process and sampling a snare. A triggered snare is whenever portnoy hits the snare drum, it triggers a saved snare sound. Triggered snare does not mean the producer went in and started adding snare hits in there. So everytime you hear a snare on I&W, portnoy has hit his snare drum. Because the snare sound is the same on each hit, yes its impossible to make a drum sound exactly the same everytime, but definitely not impossible at all to play the song. Haven't you seen live versions? I really think you might be misunderstanding what the term triggered snare means.
alright, you got me, i did misunderstand.
but, in a way, it is impossible because you can hit the snare that loud, portnoy even said that to my dad himself...
because my dad couldnt play the part on metropolis perfect
and he asked portnoy how to play it
and he said "the snare was triggered, so you cant really play it like the album"
i realise i missunderstood
=D
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I don't care either way and the whole triggered snare saga has been blown out of proportion. When I first heard I&W, I had no idea what a triggered snare was. Now, I wish I never found out! The remixes on TGH sound ok, but the original versions are still better.
The only two things I generally remember from the book are that MP and DP had some creative differences and MP was a little upset that DP did some things without the band's consent. That's basically it. I think some fans overreacted more than MP ever did.
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I prefer the triggered snare to the natural drum, actually. My be because I'm used to it, but it just sounds better to my ear.
If Portnoy wanted to have a natural drum so much, he could have just told Prater to fuck off. The band was Prater's boss, not the other way around.
Blob, I'm not getting specifics, and he may have only complained as you described. The point is that Portnoy has a huge ego, which could be a bad or good thing.
And I agree with orcus, you don't need to become so defensive.
im pretty sure he kinda did tell him to fuck off
correct me if im wrong
but they fought a lot
from what i heard
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You should start posting in iambic pentameter. That way your post formatting might make a little more sense.
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I prefer pentambic iameter myself.
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I prefer the triggered snare to the natural drum, actually. My be because I'm used to it, but it just sounds better to my ear.
If Portnoy wanted to have a natural drum so much, he could have just told Prater to fuck off. The band was Prater's boss, not the other way around.
Blob, I'm not getting specifics, and he may have only complained as you described. The point is that Portnoy has a huge ego, which could be a bad or good thing.
And I agree with orcus, you don't need to become so defensive.
im pretty sure he kinda did tell him to fuck off
correct me if im wrong
but they fought a lot
from what i heard
In "Lifting Shadows" by Rich Wilson, Wilson accounts for the fact that Portnoy and Prater did not agree with each other at all and that Moore did not get along with Prater as well. But that was a personality issue, not like the triggered snare and bass drums that got Prater and Portnoy going.
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haiku?
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Reminds me of that egyptian guy who got banned a while back.
no one dare disrespect egypt again
anyone
ever
It makes me sad that the post was lost... :(
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Not me.
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Reminds me of that egyptian guy who got banned a while back.
no one dare disrespect egypt again
anyone
ever
It makes me sad that the post was lost... :(
I remember that guy. Was he the guy asking for someone to buy him CiM or something to that effect?
-
Reminds me of that egyptian guy who got banned a while back.
no one dare disrespect egypt again
anyone
ever
It makes me sad that the post was lost... :(
"The Firky" or something like that.
-
Reminds me of that egyptian guy who got banned a while back.
no one dare disrespect egypt again
anyone
ever
It makes me sad that the post was lost... :(
what happened?
please tell me, i wasnt a member then, and i just want to know what happened
=D
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Reminds me of that egyptian guy who got banned a while back.
no one dare disrespect egypt again
anyone
ever
It makes me sad that the post was lost... :(
what happened?
please tell me, i wasnt a member then, and i just want to know what happened
=D
Some egyptian guy
typed short lines
like this
argued about egypt
in p/r
insulted someone
got banned
many lulz were had
-
Reminds me of that egyptian guy who got banned a while back.
no one dare disrespect egypt again
anyone
ever
It makes me sad that the post was lost... :(
what happened?
please tell me, i wasnt a member then, and i just want to know what happened
=D
Some egyptian guy
typed short lines
like this
argued about egypt
in p/r
insulted someone
got banned
many lulz were had
:rollin
This is an excellent summary.
-J
-
Reminds me of that egyptian guy who got banned a while back.
no one dare disrespect egypt again
anyone
ever
It makes me sad that the post was lost... :(
what happened?
please tell me, i wasnt a member then, and i just want to know what happened
=D
Some egyptian guy
typed short lines
like this
argued about egypt
in p/r
insulted someone
got banned
many lulz were had
:rollin
This is an excellent summary.
-J
Don't
you
mean
:
This
is
an
excellent
summary.
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J
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I think that you're coming off badly in all this questioning for evidence, though. Like, didn't you ask Rumby to go back and find exact quotes from the DT book to prove what he was saying? You're basically telling everyone you're arguing with that their word is worth nothing at face value. I could totally understand if, for the sake of fair discussion, if someone said "MP always overreacts! He's bashed so many people!" if you wanted examples, but when someone says, "In the DT book, MP bashed David Prater a lot when he probably didn't need to", and you suddenly want exact quotes to prove it, it's a little... I don't know... disrespectful? Unreasonable maybe?
Coming of badly? Is asking for proof from the very source of information people are discussing here unreasonable?
Well I was more interested in MP's comments before the book. You'll have to excuse me for not taking certain people's word when a few of them are notorious for exaggerating the facts when MP is concerned (I won't go into details there), but the main issue I'm addressing is people saying MP hasn't shut up about this and always brings it up without reason. And what I ask is, book aside, had he made any comment regarding Prater? I found one post on his forum about Prater in a thread about Prater, which was about the book which we can count as bringing it up without need (even if it was in an existing thread), and he made a passing comment on LiT that he doesn't like the triggered snare, and doesn't mention Prater's name at all as far as i recall. So that leaves a 13+ year gap of silence, then the book, then one mention to the book.
Since I don't know what MP or Prater said in the book, that really leaves nothing.
When you start asking for proof as specific as exact quotes from a huge book, yes, I think that it does start to look bad because you're saying that certain people's words are shit. If you think that some people have lost the right to be believed, I guess that's understandable, but still, this is an internet forum, not an interrogation.
I understand that, but I'm really not asking much. People make a bold claim, I question it, they back it up. This is how discussion works. I'm not interrogating, even some basic paraphrasing of the general gist of what MP said in the book would be nice (and Prater for that matter). I think it starts to look bad if people start accusing me because I ask for some backup to their argument of MP never shutting up about Prater, which is as of yet pretty dubious considering I've seen no mention of MP bad-mouthing Prater other than the book. I know this is only a forum, but still.........
Accusing you of what? Of defending MP all the time?
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I prefer the triggered snare to the natural drum, actually. My be because I'm used to it, but it just sounds better to my ear.
If Portnoy wanted to have a natural drum so much, he could have just told Prater to fuck off. The band was Prater's boss, not the other way around.
Blob, I'm not getting specifics, and he may have only complained as you described. The point is that Portnoy has a huge ego, which could be a bad or good thing.
And I agree with orcus, you don't need to become so defensive.
im pretty sure he kinda did tell him to fuck off
correct me if im wrong
but they fought a lot
from what i heard
In "Lifting Shadows" by Rich Wilson, Wilson accounts for the fact that Portnoy and Prater did not agree with each other at all and that Moore did not get along with Prater as well. But that was a personality issue, not like the triggered snare and bass drums that got Prater and Portnoy going.
James and Prater also nearly got in a fist fight during ACOS :lol
-
Reminds me of that egyptian guy who got banned a while back.
no one dare disrespect egypt again
anyone
ever
It makes me sad that the post was lost... :(
what happened?
please tell me, i wasnt a member then, and i just want to know what happened
=D
Some egyptian guy
typed short lines
like this
argued about egypt
in p/r
insulted someone
got banned
many lulz were had
lol
i type like that sometimes
idk why
i just dont like typing a paragraph because it looks like too much to read.
but i dont insult people
what did he saty specifically to get banned?
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I prefer the triggered snare to the natural drum, actually. My be because I'm used to it, but it just sounds better to my ear.
If Portnoy wanted to have a natural drum so much, he could have just told Prater to fuck off. The band was Prater's boss, not the other way around.
Blob, I'm not getting specifics, and he may have only complained as you described. The point is that Portnoy has a huge ego, which could be a bad or good thing.
And I agree with orcus, you don't need to become so defensive.
im pretty sure he kinda did tell him to fuck off
correct me if im wrong
but they fought a lot
from what i heard
In "Lifting Shadows" by Rich Wilson, Wilson accounts for the fact that Portnoy and Prater did not agree with each other at all and that Moore did not get along with Prater as well. But that was a personality issue, not like the triggered snare and bass drums that got Prater and Portnoy going.
James and Prater also nearly got in a fist fight during ACOS :lol
really?
-
^ Yea, really and that book is such a fun read. I sometimes can't believe the stuff they did. Like the time Portnoy almost fought a security guard because he stole the stick out of mid-air from a girl he was tossing it too. Hilarious :lol
-
^ Yea, really and that book is such a fun read. I sometimes can't believe the stuff they did. Like the time Portnoy almost fought a security guard because he stole the stick out of mid-air from a girl he was tossing it too. Hilarious :lol
lol
this is slightly off topic, but i just dont think it can top motley crue: the dirt.
i can see dt being ok
but noone can top motley crue, not even zepplin imo
-
^ Yea, really and that book is such a fun read. I sometimes can't believe the stuff they did. Like the time Portnoy almost fought a security guard because he stole the stick out of mid-air from a girl he was tossing it too. Hilarious :lol
lol
this is slightly off topic, but i just dont think it can top motley crue: the dirt.
i can see dt being ok
but noone can top motley crue, not even zepplin imo
idk dude, evidently Zeppelin violated a girl with a fish :lol
-
^ Yea, really and that book is such a fun read. I sometimes can't believe the stuff they did. Like the time Portnoy almost fought a security guard because he stole the stick out of mid-air from a girl he was tossing it too. Hilarious :lol
lol
this is slightly off topic, but i just dont think it can top motley crue: the dirt.
i can see dt being ok
but noone can top motley crue, not even zepplin imo
idk dude, evidently Zeppelin violated a girl with a fish :lol
delete this if it is too inappropriate...
but
motley crue would stand there, and have girls crawl on their hands and knees in cat suits while they smiled in their hands and fed it to them...
many more...
its a good read
-
^ Yea, really and that book is such a fun read. I sometimes can't believe the stuff they did. Like the time Portnoy almost fought a security guard because he stole the stick out of mid-air from a girl he was tossing it too. Hilarious :lol
lol
this is slightly off topic, but i just dont think it can top motley crue: the dirt.
i can see dt being ok
but noone can top motley crue, not even zepplin imo
idk dude, evidently Zeppelin violated a girl with a fish :lol
Well, his time as a mod is definitely short-lived when bosky hears of this.
-
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
-
idk, my bff Jill?
-
idk, my bff Jill?
*slap*
-
^ Yea, really and that book is such a fun read. I sometimes can't believe the stuff they did. Like the time Portnoy almost fought a security guard because he stole the stick out of mid-air from a girl he was tossing it too. Hilarious :lol
lol
this is slightly off topic, but i just dont think it can top motley crue: the dirt.
i can see dt being ok
but noone can top motley crue, not even zepplin imo
idk dude, evidently Zeppelin violated a girl with a fish :lol
delete this if it is too inappropriate...
but
motley crue would stand there, and have girls crawl on their hands and knees in cat suits while they smiled in their hands and fed it to them...
many more...
its a good read
I find this offensive and inappropriate!
DELETE IT! NAO!
-
:rollin
-
I think David Prater(from what I can tell,) is a bit crazy to say the least. It really seemed like he was at odds with almost everyone in the band at one time. With that being said, I still love the production on Images in Words. Of course 9/10 I prefer natural drums but I fell in love with the album based on the music itself. I'm so used to it now that it would be wierd for me to hear it without the triggered drums. In reality, the drums sound is a none issue for me. The real issue is the fact that Prater just seems like a dick bag in general.
-
After reading the biography he seemed to be the type of guy who could mix a great sounding album, but wasn't one who would get on with the band. I think that's the core issue - I would rather the band have an enjoyable recording session than having a better produced album - it's not like if someone else was producer it would suddenly sound awful.
-
All I can say is that I love not to have a trained ear to notice the difference between the triggered and real drum sound.
Oh, and READ THE BOOK!!!
-
All I can say is that I love not to have a trained ear to notice the difference between the triggered and real drum sound.
Oh, and READ THE BOOK!!!
Well said.
-
Just about every metal band has triggered drums.
The triggered snare sounds a bit silly.
However the remixes, most likely post-triggered every single drum. Yet no one is complaining about that.
-
Just about every metal band has triggered drums.
The triggered snare sounds a bit silly.
However the remixes, most likely post-triggered every single drum. Yet no one is complaining about that.
Because it doesn't sound like a the drum sound on a casio keyboard!?
-
Just about every metal band has triggered drums.
The triggered snare sounds a bit silly.
However the remixes, most likely post-triggered every single drum. Yet no one is complaining about that.
Because it doesn't sound like a the drum sound on a casio keyboard!?
The sound itself is fine. It just lacks dynamics.
-
It is an absolute fact that the issue of Prater triggering the snare sample was never a problem for anyone from the band, record label or band management during the entire DT Atco demos/IAW recording process. I was there and I saw the whole thing from start to finish. Prater had produced, engineered and mixed 3 songs for Derek Oliver (Atco demos) using the exact same kick and snare sample. Furthermore, no one complained about anything until long after IAW was released. Remember, in 1991, there were no computers such as Pro-Tools, Logic or Cubase. These recordings took place at least 6 years before anything like that was possible. Today, if you want to use a drummer's natural drum sound you can do so in a drastically less problematic manner than with what Prater had to work with. Considering the record was made at all (much less sounding as good as it does) still blows my mind.[/color]
-
I actually love the triggered snare. it blends in very well with the albums sound. but i HATE the snare on ACOS. if mikes natural snare I&W snare sounded like the one from ACOS, i can see why prater had it triggered. it would have sounded really weird on I&W.
Also, why did JLB and prater almost fist fight?
-
It is an absolute fact that the issue of Prater triggering the snare sample was never a problem for anyone from the band, record label or band management during the entire DT Atco demos/IAW recording process. I was there and I saw the whole thing from start to finish. Prater had produced, engineered and mixed 3 songs for Derek Oliver (Atco demos) using the exact same kick and snare sample. Furthermore, no one complained about anything until long after IAW was released. Remember, in 1991, there were no computers such as Pro-Tools, Logic or Cubase. These recordings took place at least 6 years before anything like that was possible. Today, if you want to use a drummer's natural drum sound you can do so in a drastically less problematic manner than with what Prater had to work with. Considering the record was made at all (much less sounding as good as it does) still blows my mind.[/color]
so the book, according to people on here, is just a lie?
-
:corn
Who are you and please keep telling us more details.
-
Unfortunately, Prater's responses to Rich Wilson's questions are 100% accurate factually, however, MP's rebuttals are in almost all cases completely without merit. At times even wildly so. It seems each and every time MP is queried he spews so much venom and vitriol a mature reader has to question his objectivity. Why he is so bitter has us all completely flummoxed.
Remember this, I was an eyewitness. I swear Prater's the one in the right. For the last 17 years MP has abused his bully pulpit and has never been taken to task by an objective 3rd party. What is even more pathetic is that his vast legion of MP wannabes anxiously line up to gorge themselves on every delicious morsel drooling out of his mouth. The problem is, 99% of the time he isn't anywhere near telling the truth.
-
As interesting as this all sounds, we'll need some real confirmation. Otherwise, it just sounds like you're trolling behind a disguise. Nothing personal, just these merciless attacks you're sending against MP seem like nothing short of troll activity.
-
As interesting as this all sounds, we'll need some real confirmation. Otherwise, it just sounds like you're trolling behind a disguise. Nothing personal, just these merciless attacks you're sending against MP seem like nothing short of troll activity.
Super Dude, thank you for illustrating my point.
As the one person (assistant engineer) in this conversation who was actually there and can truthfully attest to Prater's account, you take offense with my position yet refer to the support for your position in the plural ("We'll need some confirmation"). Are you on the DTF board of governor's? Do you represent the rank and file who support MP's uncorroborated accusations. I gave you my qualification. Call Chris Bubacz or Doug Oberkircher from Bear Tracks if you can find them. The place was dismantled years ago. They'll tell you the same thing.
As for merciless attacks, MP has done nothing but eviscerate Prater verbally for the last 17 years for what appears to be petty and childish offenses. For me, Prater was a righteous boss who always tipped lavishly and took care of me when I had to log ridiculous hours. We enjoyed countless wonderful dinners at BonGiovanni's and Mount Fuji in Suffern yet I never had to spend a single dime.
So, there you have it. I'm not trolling. I'm testifying. And you don't like it because you might just be wrong. I have watched from the sidelines for 17 years as guys perhaps like yourself have unloaded as many vicious attacks against Prater as your heart has desired. However, the one time someone has the balls to shut you down, he gets the same marginalizing tactics Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity use to denigrate their opponents.
Prater is a good guy and deserves better, but, he won't take up for himself. There are, however, some of us who know him that have had all of it that we can eat. MP has been childish and unfair. Those of you who enjoy this type of senseless drama need to look in the mirror at your life and ask how you have served others in a higher cause before you continue to assail Prater's good intentions. With his work on IAW and ACOS, all that Prater did was try and make records that would stand the test of time and perhaps in doing so help make DT et al rich beyond their wildest dreams.
-
........Prater? :lol
-
Steve Regina was the assistant engineer on I&W, so that is who you are?
-
With his work on IAW and ACOS, all that Prater did was try and make records that would stand the test of time and perhaps in doing so help make DT et al rich beyond their wildest dreams.
Stand the test of time? I'll agree 100%. The things I heard Prater did, like keep some solos Petrucci wanted to throw away, helped tremendously for both those records. As far as being rich I'm not so sure, though Pull Me Under is still the closest they've come to a hit single so I guess his heart was in the right place for that.
And not to add much to the trigger snare argument but I can't think of a metal record nowadays that doesn't have triggered snare. I don't know why this is bitched about so much.
-
ACOS is I&W without the trigger and it sounds great.
-
I know. One of favorites.
-
........Prater? :lol
:lol My thoughts exactly.
I know. One of favorites.
The whole thing?
-
........Prater? :lol
:rollin
Steve Regina was the assistant engineer on I&W, so that is who you are?
Wonder if he'll come back and answer this question.
David Prater fellatio
I honestly don't give a shit about any of this, but can you seriously blame anyone here for being skeptical? Personally, I don't have an opinion about Prater one way or the other, and I suspect a lot of people here are like that. Take it easy; you're only losing credibility by getting all upset about it.
-J
-
btw, if you type "i hate david prater" into Google, this thread is on the first page, but had you visited the forum, this thread was ended a month ago. Coincidence? Find out after the break........
-
Interesting points and point of view, but I'll believe them when we know who we are dealing with.
-
Steve Regina was the assistant engineer on I&W, so that is who you are?
-
Steve Regina was the assistant engineer on I&W, so that is who you are?
havona , evidence? I think so :o
-
Try . . .
https://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:4agNA4CSXswJ:www.myspace.com/davidpratermusic+havona+David+prater&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk (https://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:4agNA4CSXswJ:www.myspace.com/davidpratermusic+havona+David+prater&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)
-
Try . . .
https://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:4agNA4CSXswJ:www.myspace.com/davidpratermusic+havona+David+prater&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
The possibility that that could have been Steve Regina is very promising and introspective.
The fact that it's probably Prater tooting his own horn makes the whole thing kind of sad.
I think Dream Theater's best work was done with Shirley at the helm. They really could use him back- though I admit I think they're doing fine on their own. Iron Maiden's "A Matter of Life and Death" is among the best albums I have ever heard.
And not to add much to the trigger snare argument but I can't think of a metal record nowadays that doesn't have triggered snare. I don't know why this is bitched about so much.
I don't know- I've never heard a snare triggered like that before. It's too much triggering, or something.
-
:police:
-
A couple of points about this thread/discussion:
#1: There are certainly valid points of discussion to be made about Prater's involvement in Dream Theater's career. You can love some of the things he did, hate some, feel like it is a mixed bag, or something else. These are all fine points for discussion. But the poll having choices of "like david prater," "don't like david prater," etc. make it personal, and there's really no room for that here. Discuss what he did and leave it at that.
Point #2:
Unfortunately, Prater's responses to Rich Wilson's questions are 100% accurate factually, however, MP's rebuttals are in almost all cases completely without merit. At times even wildly so. It seems each and every time MP is queried he spews so much venom and vitriol a mature reader has to question his objectivity. Why he is so bitter has us all completely flummoxed.
Remember this, I was an eyewitness. I swear Prater's the one in the right. For the last 17 years MP has abused his bully pulpit and has never been taken to task by an objective 3rd party. What is even more pathetic is that his vast legion of MP wannabes anxiously line up to gorge themselves on every delicious morsel drooling out of his mouth. The problem is, 99% of the time he isn't anywhere near telling the truth.
Here's the thing, havona. This is, first and foremost, a forum for Dream Theater fans. Because more fans than not (1) appreciate Mike Portnoy and, as fans, do eagerly take in a lot of what he says, and (2) do NOT like some of the choices Mr. Prater made on the Images & Words album, there is naturally going to be some negativity expressed on boards like this one. If Mr. Prater can't be bothered to speak up on the subject, I don't see the need for others to come rushing to his defense. It is great to have commentary from someone who was actually there, if indeed you were (forgive me for being skeptical, but this is the Internet, and anyone can say they are anybody). If you have some direct knowledge of some of what went on, great. Join the discussion and add some great perpective from the other side. But I warn you: tread carefully. Do NOT come onto these boards and call Mike Portnoy a liar or call his integrity into question. Doing that is a violation of the rules. Are the rules biased and overprotective of the members of Dream Theater, while perhaps not oferring the same level of protection for criticism of others? Yeah, they are. Again, it is a Dream Theater forum. If Mr. Prater has his own forum out there, he is welcome to have a "no Prater-bashing" rule if he chooses. Keep your statements factual. Give us whatever facts you have as you see them and leave the personal attacks at the door so we can draw out own conclusions. For one thing, it makes your arguments weak if you are short on facts and long on personal attacks. For another, personal attacks and flaming of the band members is against the forum rules and will get you banned from this place. And unlike Super Dude, I am the DTF "board of directors," or however you put it. So I hope you heed this warning. Again, if you have an opposing perspective to offer, that is great and is in fact welcome. But the next personal attack against a bandmember is not welcome and earns you a one-way trip to the exit door.
-
:corn
-
I know. One of favorites.
The whole thing?
"I accidentally" came to my head the second I saw this. But anyways I don't really mind the whole album, tbh. Well maybe except the Zeppelin medley.
-
Try . . .
https://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:4agNA4CSXswJ:www.myspace.com/davidpratermusic+havona+David+prater&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk (https://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:4agNA4CSXswJ:www.myspace.com/davidpratermusic+havona+David+prater&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)
Well, guess that answers Blob's question.
Hi David!
-
Hi, David!
-
Busted!
-
It is great to have commentary from someone who was actually there, if indeed you were (forgive me for being skeptical, but this is the Internet, and anyone can say they are anybody).
So yes, Havona, I want you to see this post. I was not attacking you personally or calling your opinion into question. Bosk simply articulated it better than me: anyone can say they're anyone on the internet, so when you say you worked with Prater personally, it's logical and in fact smart for me to doubt your claimed identity. That's why I asked you to prove it. Nothing against you.
-
It is great to have commentary from someone who was actually there, if indeed you were (forgive me for being skeptical, but this is the Internet, and anyone can say they are anybody).
So yes, Havona, I want you to see this post. I was not attacking you personally or calling your opinion into question. Bosk simply articulated it better than me: anyone can say they're anyone on the internet, so when you say you worked with Prater personally, it's logical and in fact smart for me to doubt your claimed identity. That's why I asked you to prove it. Nothing against you.
For example, I was the chief cameraman for NASA when they faked the moon landing.
You may very well be who you say you are, Havona, but we tend to like Mr. Portnoy around here, and if we're going to believe some of the mean (but possibly true) things you've said about him, we'd like to have a solid reason to trust what you say. That's all.
-
I was actually there during the mixing too, and I can say de facto that everything havona is saying is complete bull! Call up anyone of the guys in DT, they'll tell you the same thing.
-
Man. Don't you just love these forums when these kind of things happen?
I love DTF.
And as for David: Please keep talking, obeying Bosk rules of course, but keep telling us more info. I'm really looking forward for what you have to say.
-
Havona. No one said anything about you, or said anything [that I saw] that was offensive. Also, no one got defensive because they "are wrong". All we are saying is that anyone could pretend to be anyone. While you may not be pretending, we don't know that for sure. I could join this forum from another computer and say i am John Myung, and some could believe that is the truth. While I wouldn't do that and that is just a waste of time, most would surely enough say "Are you really JM? Do you have proof?"
When you say you worked with Prater and DT, but do not give any proof to back this up, not many will believe you. i am not personally attacking you, I am just stating that it is not believable, and until you give undeniable evidence that you are who you say you are, almost no one will believe you 100%.
-
Imagine if Mike Portnoy joined to argue back. That would be pretty epic. [/color]
-
Well the assistant engineer [apparently] joined to argue, so we can hope for the best! :biggrin:
-
I don't know why he felt the need to come on here and bitch. The people who don't like him are in the minority.
-
Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.
-
For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.
so you think 7:23 to 8:03 of metropolis part 1 isnt bad?
that is one of many examples
It doesn't bother me. Is it really that difficult to believe?
my dad asked mp himself how to play it
mp said a lot of the snares are triggered and therefor it is impossible to play lie the album
So?
maybe if you were a drummer you would understand
Didn't they play the entire album live a couple of times during the 8VM tour over in Europe
https://mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=925
-
Question for Prater/Havona if he's willing to answer -
The triggering itself doesn't bother me, but why not sample MP's drum kit?
-
Here's the thing, havona. This is, first and foremost, a forum for Dream Theater fans. Because more fans than not (1) appreciate Mike Portnoy and, as fans, do eagerly take in a lot of what he says, and (2) do NOT like some of the choices Mr. Prater made on the Images & Words album, there is naturally going to be some negativity expressed on boards like this one. If Mr. Prater can't be bothered to speak up on the subject, I don't see the need for others to come rushing to his defense. It is great to have commentary from someone who was actually there, if indeed you were (forgive me for being skeptical, but this is the Internet, and anyone can say they are anybody). If you have some direct knowledge of some of what went on, great. Join the discussion and add some great perpective from the other side. But I warn you: tread carefully. Do NOT come onto these boards and call Mike Portnoy a liar or call his integrity into question. Doing that is a violation of the rules. Are the rules biased and overprotective of the members of Dream Theater, while perhaps not oferring the same level of protection for criticism of others? Yeah, they are. Again, it is a Dream Theater forum. If Mr. Prater has his own forum out there, he is welcome to have a "no Prater-bashing" rule if he chooses. Keep your statements factual. Give us whatever facts you have as you see them and leave the personal attacks at the door so we can draw out own conclusions. For one thing, it makes your arguments weak if you are short on facts and long on personal attacks. For another, personal attacks and flaming of the band members is against the forum rules and will get you banned from this place. And unlike Super Dude, I am the DTF "board of directors," or however you put it. So I hope you heed this warning. Again, if you have an opposing perspective to offer, that is great and is in fact welcome. But the next personal attack against a bandmember is not welcome and earns you a one-way trip to the exit door.
This.
-
Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.
I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .
-
Aww shiii-
-
Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.
I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .
Oh no you didn't...
-
TBH, the triggered snares on Images & Words don't bother me at all. Of course, I'm not the drummer.
-
Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.
I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .
Oh no you didn't...
Give it enough time, and even KevMo will post here.
rumborak
-
For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.
so you think 7:23 to 8:03 of metropolis part 1 isnt bad?
that is one of many examples
It doesn't bother me. Is it really that difficult to believe?
my dad asked mp himself how to play it
mp said a lot of the snares are triggered and therefor it is impossible to play lie the album
So?
maybe if you were a drummer you would understand
Didn't they play the entire album live a couple of times during the 8VM tour over in Europe
https://mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=925
yes, but 1 of two things may have happened. 1. they had a trigger live
2. he just played ghost notes.
The triggered snare doesn't matter to me as much as it did when I originally posted this thread. So I don't really care anymore. I guess David Prater did a good job, and I was just giving him a hard time. And I agree with Rich Wilson.
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Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.
I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .
Oh no you didn't...
Give it enough time, and even KevMo will post here.
rumborak
:lol
-
Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.
I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .
Oh no you didn't...
Give it enough time, and even KevMo will post here.
rumborak
:lol
Okay then. Let's get ready.
Commencing Operation: Bait KevMo
-
Here's my take on this (not that it matters LOL) ....
I do think Portnoy is a bit of a drama queen. I could be totally wrong, but from what I've read in interviews and on his forum and from seeing him in interviews, he just seems like the type of guy that this Havona person is describing. He seems like the type that is a control freak and perhaps resents David Prater for making an amazing album and for being in charge during that period in the band's history. Could be wrong, so bosk don't ban me - will edit my post if you want. I'm just giving my impression. Honestly, no disrespect meant to DT.
On the other hand, I'M SURE that the truth lies somwhere in the middle. I'm sure that some of Portnoy's comments are accurate and I'm sure some of what Prater has said is accurate. I'm also sure that both of them probably exaggerate the "bad" things that the other person did and have acted like cry-babies to some extent. I'm sure of these two things because that's how people act. Neither of them are completely right or completely wrong. There is middle ground and the problem with discussing this is that NONE OF US WERE THERE, so WE DON'T KNOW. Havona supposedly was there, but we have no details, so he or she is useless in my opinion. I'd personally disregard his or her posts entirely. Prater allegedly took this person out to dinner all the time, so yeah, that's an unbiased source.
So, the point: Images & Words is an amazing album. Triggered snare, blah blah..... who gives a crap? There's stuff about Petrucci's tone that I don't like. Some of his tones are over-processed and way too bright for my tastes. For the most part, I like it, but I'm not about to crucify David Prater because there are one or two things I don't like about JP's guitar tone. It was the early 90's and Prater captured the sound of that time.
Does it stand up nowadays? Musically, definitely. Sonically? Some of it yes, some of it no. But, there are a lot of albums like that. A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now). Are we going to go blaming Portnoy for that stuff in 10 years? Let's just enjoy the album for the MASTERPIECE it is. I think discussing the trigged snare issue is fine, but this ridiculous argument of Portnoy vs. Prater is stupid and useless. No one will ever know the truth.
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I'm glad not as many people are bothered by the triggered snare as I thought. I'm a huge fan of the early 90s sound. Maybe it would have sounded a lot better with a natural snare. Maybe not. I don't know how the real drum sound would have ended up with their budget. Because there are many albums from the late 80s and early 90s with awful sounding drums. But there are also many with my favourite drum sounds. But I like the triggered snare.
And let's not beat around the bush. Chances are this IS David Prater. But if he actually comes back, we'll deal with that one too. Because we'd all have been happy to just have Prater from the start.
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Does it stand up nowadays? Musically, definitely. Sonically? Some of it yes, some of it no. But, there are a lot of albums like that. A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).
That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.
rumborak
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Does it stand up nowadays? Musically, definitely. Sonically? Some of it yes, some of it no. But, there are a lot of albums like that. A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).
That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.
rumborak
How is Systematic Chaos a sonic crime; apart from being really loud with little dynamic range, (sadly) like most albums.
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So, the point: Images & Words is an amazing album. Triggered snare, blah blah..... who gives a crap?
THIS..and...
Let's just enjoy the album for the MASTERPIECE it is.
...THAT
I mean WTF else is there to say? This is one of those maddening threads that really has no point.
Seriously!
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Does it stand up nowadays? Musically, definitely. Sonically? Some of it yes, some of it no. But, there are a lot of albums like that. A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).
That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.
rumborak
I'm not sure if this matters, but Kevin Shirley said in an interview that one of his favorite parts of working with JP and MP as producers was the high quality of the recordings.
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No, there's a point. We're baiting Prater back into the thread, and maybe KevMo too.
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No, there's a point. We're baiting Prater back into the thread, and maybe KevMo too.
Oh OK. Jeesh kind of like watching a car accident while waiting for the bodies to be pulled out.
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Here's my take on this (not that it matters LOL) ....
I do think Portnoy is a bit of a drama queen. I could be totally wrong, but from what I've read in interviews and on his forum and from seeing him in interviews, he just seems like the type of guy that this Havona person is describing. He seems like the type that is a control freak and perhaps resents David Prater for making an amazing album and for being in charge during that period in the band's history. Could be wrong, so bosk don't ban me - will edit my post if you want. I'm just giving my impression. Honestly, no disrespect meant to DT.
On the other hand, I'M SURE that the truth lies somwhere in the middle. I'm sure that some of Portnoy's comments are accurate and I'm sure some of what Prater has said is accurate. I'm also sure that both of them probably exaggerate the "bad" things that the other person did and have acted like cry-babies to some extent. I'm sure of these two things because that's how people act. Neither of them are completely right or completely wrong. There is middle ground and the problem with discussing this is that NONE OF US WERE THERE, so WE DON'T KNOW. Havona supposedly was there, but we have no details, so he or she is useless in my opinion. I'd personally disregard his or her posts entirely. Prater allegedly took this person out to dinner all the time, so yeah, that's an unbiased source.
So, the point: Images & Words is an amazing album. Triggered snare, blah blah..... who gives a crap? There's stuff about Petrucci's tone that I don't like. Some of his tones are over-processed and way too bright for my tastes. For the most part, I like it, but I'm not about to crucify David Prater because there are one or two things I don't like about JP's guitar tone. It was the early 90's and Prater captured the sound of that time.
Does it stand up nowadays? Musically, definitely. Sonically? Some of it yes, some of it no. But, there are a lot of albums like that. A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now). Are we going to go blaming Portnoy for that stuff in 10 years? Let's just enjoy the album for the MASTERPIECE it is. I think discussing the trigged snare issue is fine, but this ridiculous argument of Portnoy vs. Prater is stupid and useless. No one will ever know the truth.
Aside from the idea that Portnoy resents Prater for anything other than the fact that they didn't work well together, there are some really good points in this post :tup
The whole argument is ridiculous and unnecessary. Even more so than most DT forum arguments :biggrin:
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Does it stand up nowadays? Musically, definitely. Sonically? Some of it yes, some of it no. But, there are a lot of albums like that. A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).
That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.
rumborak
I'm not sure if this matters, but Kevin Shirley said in an interview that one of his favorite parts of working with JP and MP as producers was the high quality of the recordings.
Could it be the mastering that is the problem?
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Does it stand up nowadays? Musically, definitely. Sonically? Some of it yes, some of it no. But, there are a lot of albums like that. A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).
That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.
rumborak
I'm not sure if this matters, but Kevin Shirley said in an interview that one of his favorite parts of working with JP and MP as producers was the high quality of the recordings.
Could it be the mastering that is the problem?
That tends to be my opinion. I made stereo mixes of SC by downmixing the 5.1 mixes, and it sounds a lot better without all the mastering compression.
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I like the triggered snare and like the original I&W album better than the remixed-non-triggered stuff. That was the time and the place, that stuff was IN, it MAKES the album what it is, I LOVE the album.
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I like the triggered snare and like the original I&W album better than the remixed-non-triggered stuff. That was the time and the place, that stuff was IN, it MAKES the album what it is, I LOVE the album.
Well-put. And honestly, I don't think anyone would give the snare a second thought if not for all of MP's whinging about it...
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Does it stand up nowadays? Musically, definitely. Sonically? Some of it yes, some of it no. But, there are a lot of albums like that. A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).
That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.
rumborak
I'm not sure if this matters, but Kevin Shirley said in an interview that one of his favorite parts of working with JP and MP as producers was the high quality of the recordings.
Could it be the mastering that is the problem?
That tends to be my opinion. I made stereo mixes of SC by downmixing the 5.1 mixes, and it sounds a lot better without all the mastering compression.
Nice. :hat
And rumby, you're going overboard. SC sounds no worse than 95% of all other albums released. Blaming MP for the mastering engineer's work is a bit weak.
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I semi-agree here, though I'm with Rumby only for the fact that like you said, Blob, that SC sounds like a lot of modern metal albums that are compressed to shit. I'm just wondering why MP was OK with that fact. The interviews where Northfield was talking about BC&SL makes me hopeful for more dynamic range though which is awesome no matter how you cut it.
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I'm not saying SC sounds great sonically, I'm just saying that it doesn't stand out as worse than a lot of other albums, and you can't just blame MP for that. Obviously he seems to have the final say on everything, but at the same time, he's no mastering engineer either.
And yes, I have a feeling BCASL is going to sound a lot more dynamic than SC. It's good to know that they're at least aware of the issue and the feedback from SC. If SC weren't such a heavy album overall, I might be bothered by SC's mastering, but as it is, it doesn't sound too bad with the heavier stuff like CM and TDEN.
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Through all this debate and confusion, I wonder where havona went? :laugh:
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I like the triggered snare and like the original I&W album better than the remixed-non-triggered stuff. That was the time and the place, that stuff was IN, it MAKES the album what it is, I LOVE the album.
This, couldnt care less about the whole triggering issue. I dont notice and think of it when I listen to the album I just enjoy it for the masterpiece it is.
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A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now). Are we going to go blaming Portnoy for that stuff in 10 years?
But the difference there is that it is the band making those decisions (well, MP and JP), and they are having an infinitely better studio time because of it (and I have no problem with those elements of DT anyway :P)
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I do hate the loudness war personally, and I wish DT wouldn't compress the hell out of their albums. However, it's true that pretty much everyone else is doing it as well. So there's really nothing you can do; the entire music industry will have to have a change of attitude before CD's are easy on the ear again.
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While it may be true that SC is "just like every other new metal album out there", I fail to see the need for DT to follow that route. DT are known for going their own way, and especially in this case (and people have decried the loudness war for at least 5 years now) they simply could have continued to go their own way.
These days I barely ever listen to SC because I find it tiring to do so.
Either way, I'm only saying this to put things into context. SC has already aged quite a bit, whereas it's as joyous to listen to IAW as it was 15 years ago. SC is far more "unlistenable-to" [sic] already than IAW.
rumborak
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Good point. My point though was that nobody in the music industry really sees this as a problem. Costumers buy it anyway or maybe because of ridiculous compression, so it's going to continue.
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I do hate the loudness war personally, and I wish DT wouldn't compress the hell out of their albums. However, it's true that pretty much everyone else is doing it as well.
Everyone else is NOT doing it. Some of the new cds I have gotten this year sound terrific, and do not sound compressed or too loud at all.
And to those saying I&W sounds great, I agree! The triggered snare has never really bothered me, and everything else about that record sounds great.
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Well glad the new album will ( ;) ) sound a lot better in that regard then.
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Everyone else is NOT doing it. Some of the new cds I have gotten this year sound terrific, and do not sound compressed or too loud at all.
Oddly enough- though I do love Porcupine Tree- I feel just as "tired" by the time I get to Wedding Nails as I do listening to any louder albums.
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I do hate the loudness war personally, and I wish DT wouldn't compress the hell out of their albums. However, it's true that pretty much everyone else is doing it as well.
Everyone else is NOT doing it. Some of the new cds I have gotten this year sound terrific, and do not sound compressed or too loud at all.
I don't know whether you count U2's No Line On The Horizon into the "list of exceptions" so to speak, but some songs sound awfully compressed on there.
And I'm really interested how BCASL will sound. I hope for a wide dynamic range and a secure space for each instrument.
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I do hate the loudness war personally, and I wish DT wouldn't compress the hell out of their albums. However, it's true that pretty much everyone else is doing it as well.
Everyone else is NOT doing it. Some of the new cds I have gotten this year sound terrific, and do not sound compressed or too loud at all.
I don't know whether you count U2's No Line On The Horizon into the "list of exceptions" so to speak, but some songs sound awfully compressed on there.
I do not. That's a good record, but it definitely suffers from too much compression at times.
One example of what I am talking about it is the new Dave Matthews Band record. It sounds fantastic. Everything is crystal clear, and there is plenty of room for all of the instruments to breathe; the drums, in particular, sound out of this world great.
The new Devin Townsend and OSI records also sound terrific.
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I'm very interested in how the new Maiden album is going to sound. I get the feeling that the no-mastering direction they've chosen was and is received very well, so I can see them carrying on this way in that matter.
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I'm very interested in how the new Maiden album is going to sound. I get the feeling that the no-mastering direction they've chosen was and is received very well, so I can see them carrying on this way in that matter.
Not mastered? I'd love to hear that. I've always wondered if a well mixed album really even needs mastering, since it's mostly just compressing the life out of it now. And hearing Death Magnetic what I assume is unmastered from GH3 sounds great, even if it is a bit raw. But it sure sounds a crapload better than the shit they put on the CD.
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A Matter Of Life And Death sounds a little bit raw, but otherwise, it's a very great sounding album (especially after the sonic abomination called Dance Of Death). Kind of proof that mastering isn't always necessary.
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A Matter Of Life And Death sounds a little bit raw, but otherwise, it's a very great sounding album (especially after the sonic abomination called Dance Of Death). Kind of proof that mastering isn't always necessary.
Dance of Death sounds better than A Matter of Life and Death, no question in my opinion.
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:| The only Maiden album sounding as bad as DoD is Virtual XI. Dammit, the sound of that album pisses me off.
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It's a pity Dance of Death had much better songs than A Matter Of Life And Death :neverusethis:
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Well glad the new album will ( ;) ) sound a lot better in that regard then.
Damn you and your ability to travel through time and listen to albums that will be out in the future! DAAAAAAAAAMN YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU!!!!!!!
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My very late .02.
First - Mr. Prater, coming up with a fake ID and posting stuff like you are someone else to hide your identity is just as childish as anything you complained about regarding Mike Portnoy. All you did by posting what you did (and people then finding out it was you) was look like an immature, unprofessional and bitter record producer. There are better and more honest ways to give your opinion.
Second - I never thought it was a big deal (the triggered stuff) anyway. I've listened to I&W countless times both before and after I found out what "triggering" a snare drum sound was, and frankly, the bottom line to me is, the record sounds good.
Third - The issue in question happened 17 years ago. both Mike Portnoy and David Prater should act like adults and pick up the telephone, or go have dinner and bury the hatchet. Once done, announce it. Then the fans that pick on this issue to kiss MP's ass will die down, because their hero washed his hands of the issue.
The above solves the issues.
:corn
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Well glad the new album will ( ;) ) sound a lot better in that regard then.
I wouldn't say that.
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Then you'd be wrong.
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Then you'd be wrong.
Well, an opinion is never wrong, just subjective. :)
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Unless it's something that can be objectively measured, like compression on a waveform ;)
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Unless it's something that can be objectively measured, like compression on a waveform ;)
No, human beings have ears. Nothing beats having those things. :)
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Well we're talking about mastering compression, so it is something that can easily be measured. And my ears tell me it sounds fantastic. That's all the opinion and fact I need on the matter :)
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their hero washed his hands of the issue.
And when exactly has that ever happened?
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And my ears tell me it sounds fantastic. That's all the opinion and fact I need on the matter :)
Okay. And, I wish you the best of luck with that. :)
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Maybe Prater wouldn't have been so easily found out if his username wasn't in is myspace profile.
David Prater general info:
Sounds Like - Havona
If you're going to create a fake identification just to *cough* "heal" your reputation, on a fan forum no less, make sure you cover up your tracks xD
Honestly though, a well known producer such as yourself doesn't need to reduce himself to hiding behind an alter-ego and trying to tell his side of the story to the fans from a "3rd party" point of view. If you were honest, you wouldn't have lost as much credibility as you have over the last few pages..
That's like an immature kid making a new account just to back his main accounts point in a discussion, it's just childish.
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And my ears tell me it sounds fantastic. That's all the opinion and fact I need on the matter :)
Okay. And, I wish you the best of luck with that. :)
No luck involved :)
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Nevertheless, it must be stated that without my involvement, the songs as the public has come to know them wouldn't exist. Including all the songs featured on this page, I've literally produced, engineered, mixed and performed on more records than I can remember.
wow, from the way he talks about himself on his myspace, he is a total dick. I actually felt bad for him for a moment because he created an account just because he was getting talked about. And I feel if I was in the situation, I would be sad. So I actually felt bad for the man. But now that i read this, it makes it a lot easier to not like him. I am not attacking him, I mean, ou could take it that way, but I am just saying how I feel based on his myspace bio.
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Why do you guys care? He hasn't posted in a few days.
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Nor will he ever again because of the way people have treated him in this thread.
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Why do you guys care? He hasn't posted in a few days.
Because after re-reading the thread I started to feel bad for him.
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Nor will he ever again because of the way people have treated him in this thread.
Really? I mean really?
The man created an account, pretended to be an important, but unbiased third party in order to throw insults at Mike Portnoy (which any of us could have banned him for, if we wished), and play up himself as the second coming of Jesus.
Say what you will about Prater's musical abilities, his "contributions" to this thread have shown him to be untrustworthy, deceitful, and venomous at best.
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Venomous.
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Granted I do find it odd that someone still has that particular attitude towards something that happened 17 years ago I don't disapprove of Prater speaking his mind unedited after us talking about him for quite some time. I'm just glad we have the other side of the argument in the same manner Portnoy usually speaks about people like Prater, granted I haven't read Lifting Shadows so I dunno about any of the interviews that went on. That being said he really could've picked a better manner of doing it but I'm not gonna care enough to pretend I pity the man.
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Really? I mean really?
The man created an account, pretended to be an important, but unbiased third party in order to throw insults at Mike Portnoy (which any of us could have banned him for, if we wished), and play up himself as the second coming of Jesus.
Say what you will about Prater's musical abilities, his "contributions" to this thread have shown him to be untrustworthy, deceitful, and venomous at best.
Yes, really. Say what you want about him, but he IS responsible for making Images & Words and, for that alone, he deserves our respect in my opinion.
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I cant believe he actually posted in this thread. The internet has been good to us.
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Really? I mean really?
The man created an account, pretended to be an important, but unbiased third party in order to throw insults at Mike Portnoy (which any of us could have banned him for, if we wished), and play up himself as the second coming of Jesus.
Say what you will about Prater's musical abilities, his "contributions" to this thread have shown him to be untrustworthy, deceitful, and venomous at best.
Yes, really. Say what you want about him, but he IS responsible for making Images & Words and, for that alone, he deserves our respect in my opinion.
Yes, he had my respect for, in the most part, making Images and ACoS sound as amazing as they are. Then by his actions in this thread he lost my respect.
Also, I find it humorous how some people think we owe this man so much for producing two albums, but so many of those some people will not show that same courtesy to members of the band that have contributed to every album.
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Really? I mean really?
The man created an account, pretended to be an important, but unbiased third party in order to throw insults at Mike Portnoy (which any of us could have banned him for, if we wished), and play up himself as the second coming of Jesus.
Say what you will about Prater's musical abilities, his "contributions" to this thread have shown him to be untrustworthy, deceitful, and venomous at best.
Yes, really. Say what you want about him, but he IS responsible for making Images & Words and, for that alone, he deserves our respect in my opinion.
yes, because according to him... Images and words and many other albums for various bands would not have never happened if it weren't for him. :\
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Certain elements wouldn't have, definitely. Two distinct instances where he helped albums was (1) the solo at 7:10 in Learning To Live which Petrucci wanted to scrap because he didn't like it but Prater made him keep it in and it's one of the best parts of the song/album and (2) the Another World solo in ACOS which Petrucci thought was not technical enough but Prater made him keep it in and it's one of my favorite parts of that song.
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I want to clarify, I personally don't like the triggered snare on Images and Words, but otherwise I think that album, and A Change of Seasons are phenomenal sounding recordings. However, that is now an oft discussed side issue in what has become an abysmal showing of personal antics on the part of Mr. Prater.
I would ask Mr. Prater, if he continues to read this thread, to stop stroking his ego, fully admit his identity, confessing to his unreasonable and unnecessary deceit, and then discuss this matter in an open and fair environment.
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I want to clarify, I personally don't like the triggered snare on Images and Words, but otherwise I think that album, and A Change of Seasons are phenomenal sounding recordings. However, that is now an oft discussed side issue in what has become an abysmal showing of personal antics on the part of Mr. Prater.
I would ask Mr. Prater, if he continues to read this thread, to stop stroking his ego, fully admit his identity, confessing to his unreasonable and unnecessary deceit, and then discuss this matter in an open and fair environment.
I hate to say this to a mod, but seriously, you sound like a politician trying to parent someone who's older and has done way more with his life than him. I'm not even saying Prater didn't pull a dick move, but just say it. There's no reason to act like it's imperative everyone who posts or has posted at this board read what you wrote, lest their moral centers be corrupted until the end of time.
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Reap, I wasn't saying what I said as a mod, I was saying it as someone who thought Prater certainly approached things the wrong way, and who would like things to come to a productive end.
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Reap, I wasn't saying what I said as a mod, I was saying it as someone who thought Prater certainly approached things the wrong way, and who would like things to come to a productive end.
I think what he meant was that you sounded a bit judgemental and kind of on a high horse. I could be wrong, though.
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Reap, I wasn't saying what I said as a mod, I was saying it as someone who thought Prater certainly approached things the wrong way, and who would like things to come to a productive end.
I think what he meant was that you sounded a bit judgemental and kind of on a high horse. I could be wrong, though.
Fair enough, I was being judgmental, however I think enough was seen to make a judgment on the situation. I certainly will not claim to have been through more in life than Mr. Prater, however that does not exclude me from making a correct judgmental opinion on the situation. I would think a lot of people would agree that if Mr. Prater followed my advice here, that everyone would benefit.
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I disagree. This goes back to what I said pages ago: we'll never know. So, arguing about it is really stupid and being judgemental is even more stupid. I mean no offense to you, Nick, but the thing is.... you might think Prater's behavior was uncalled for in this thread, but none of us know a) if it even really WAS him and b) the circumstances between him and DT. To be judgemental about stuff we don't know isn't fair. I think we should all just lay off the entire situation. In fact, I think this thread should just be locked entirely - and I NEVER say that. Just my opinion. It's a useless discussion now.
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I dunno. I don't really disagree with Nick. I mean, yeah, it's kinda silly and pointless to tell somewhat what they "should" do. But the sentiment expressed is not very different from what a few others in the thread have expressed.
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I agree with Nick as well. Prater, or whoever it is, is addressing us in a way that's cowardly and obviously dishonest. I'd also like to see this poster step into the light; but by doing so Prater would probably lose any chance of being taken seriously. I think it's pretty clear, at this point, that it was never havona's intention to simply provide an unheard side of the story here; that side of the story is well documented in Wilson's book and even before havona's entrance it was clear that most fans like Prater's work. Rather, I interpret this whole thing as a backfired attempt to turn some fans against Portnoy. That's really too bad. Now that the lid has been blown off, stepping forward and saying "Yes, I am havona" is probably the worst thing Prater could do. Better to just let it go and let people forget about it.
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:lol
So you pretty much just made a suggestion then explained why it isn't a very good suggestion.
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:lol
So you pretty much just made a suggestion then explained why it isn't a very good suggestion.
Pretty much. I stated what I thought was the wrong thing to do, but by the time I was halfway done my post I figured it was probably better for Prater to disappear from the forum rather than reveal himself; if not for anything but to keep him from further damaging his reputation.
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This has turned into the Twilight Zone.
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I mean I dunno, I can understand why after 17 years Prater would turn up in this thread and start giving his side of the story. I mean think about it, all this time all we've had to go on is MP's side of the story, and Prater's reputation and character as far as we know has been as MP says. So after 17 years of MP talking shit of him, I can understand him wanting to come here and set the record straight.
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I'm sure all of us would have appreciated Prater coming here and giving his opinion on the matter. People here would have been very receptive of hearing his side of the story.
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Maybe this wasn't the best means by which he could've cleared his record. But the motivation at least is easy to sympathize with. Not to mention I could see why he might've chosen his means; if you were about to post on a board whose users have been encouraged basically to hate you, would you wanna show your face and come out as Prater?
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Well reading through the thread he's not all that hated. Anyone who thinks Prater is hated because Portnoy said so isn't reading the thread (except maybe the OP ironically :lol ). But thinking he could get away with posing as someone else is an insult to the fans on this forum. It actually would have been better if he'd left it alone. The thread was dead anyway. But I can understand his need to have his say, and he's always free to do so.
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For certain, any ego is going to feel a certain amount of angst when he comes across a poll that asks whether he is hated or not.
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I'd be upset about it too. And I'd also want to defend myself about it. If he'd come in here as Prater, it'd be fine.
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Wow, this thread has certainly been interesting! It's great to see so many different opinions...AND...it would be wonderful to find out if havona really is Prater. Seems likely :) My props to havona, if it really was Prater; i'm of the opinion that we would welcome his presence here.
In regards to his productions, namely on Images and Words, I really like it. Granted, the triggered snare may not have been the perfect choice, but when you compare David's production on the original album to the remixes on the "Greatest Hits" for example, the original destroys them. What honestly keeps me coming back to Images and Words is that it has a depth of sound that is unique, and a character that is equally unique and inviting. I love the mix of guitar and keyboards on that record. And "ACOS" is perfect in my "ears" :)
Anyways, not that I needed to give my opinion on the production...lol...but again, this thread has been cool to read and to ponder.
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I'm sure all of us would have appreciated Prater coming here and giving his opinion on the matter. People here would have been very receptive of hearing his side of the story.
This.
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Yeah, I'm sure we all would have been. It's just when you see a poll asking in very strict language whether or not Prater is hated, how encouraging is that for him?
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Super Dude, stop being so damn rational.
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Super Dude, stop being so damn rational.
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Super Dude, stop being so damn sexy.
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Super Dude...sexy? :omg:
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Super Dude...sexy? :omg:
He's definitely Jewish.
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Thing is, if he had posted and admitted to being Prater, would we have believed him? :P
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Well we would have believed it a lot more than the story he gave us.
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Thing is, if he had posted and admitted to being Prater, would we have believed him? :P
As this thread already proved, it can be verified. And we verified that Charlie is Charlie and that *snip* so, yeah. And he could have contacted me or one of the mods and said who he was and that he felt he needed to clear the air on a few things.
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Thing is, if he had posted and admitted to being Prater, would we have believed him? :P
As this thread already proved, it can be verified. And we verified that Charlie is Charlie and that *snip* so, yeah. And he could have contacted me or one of the mods and said who he was and that he felt he needed to clear the air on a few things.
?que?
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Whoever TempusVox is, I'd be willing to believe that the mods actually verified it.
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Most things are very milkshakingly verified, believe you me.
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Ok seriously, I'd like to know what milkshake is code for
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Change your filter settings in your profile and the answer will be revealed.
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I missed everything... :justjen
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The songs on Prater's myspace are really good actually lol!
I personally love I&W and ACOS.
I think Awake and FII is sonically better though!
Hey if you are Prater.. Would you mind producing my bands first album??
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I missed everything... :justjen
No you didn't.
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Change your filter settings in your profile and the answer will be revealed.
You mean "leave words uncensored?" Because that definitely doesn't translate it.
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Change your filter settings in your profile and the answer will be revealed.
You mean "leave words uncensored?" Because that definitely doesn't translate it.
lol
It's the super censor - it can't be unfiltered.
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE
MILKSHAKE
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:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
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Someone should tell AndyDT to read Havona's post and take a few lessons on how to pull a dictionary fest into one post and still sounding pretty coherent.
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No one should tell AndyDT anything. His posts are a joy of language.
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And he really has the best emoticon on the entire forum.
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True, true.
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This thread..... :facepalm:
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Yeah, I think we're done here.
:lokked:
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(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/DTF/silverlocks01.jpg)