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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: OperantChamber on August 05, 2010, 07:31:42 PM
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Saw a couple of people talking about this in the DT forum. Discuss the loudness war!
https://thenumberoftheblog.com/2010/08/05/fucking-loud-and-fucking-clipped-metal-albums/
The Audacity Beta lets you see the clipping in the music waveform: https://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/
Been having fun with it, but it's sad to see with some albums.
Train of Thought looks great though. ;D
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I personally don't have problems with modern metal albums being a little loud and compressed. In my opinion, that compressed sound fits the music. Metallica's 'Death Magnetic' is taking it way too far though. The recording isn't that great, and it sounds like the mixing guy just took a pretty lame mix and just brickwalled it to make it sound 'heavy'. If you want to go heavy with compression, then do it the Chris (or Tom) Lord-Alge way. He mixes Green Day, Sevendust, MCR and a lot of modern rock/metal bands, and the sound is always great.
Another comparison: Muse's Absolution vs. The Resistance. Absolution sounds pretty good, but it is mastered so loud that the compression just takes the life out of the music at times. The Resistance is probably just as loud, if not louder. But the mix is crystal clear! Same with 10,000 Days, it's clipping like mad, but somehow it doesn't do any harm to the music at all.
Rule with hard rock/metal: Get it as loud as you possibly can without sacrificing the sound quality. That shouldn't be so difficult now would it?
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^^^ Nailed it.
Most people wouldn't even hear the difference unless it's done badly (Death Magnetic) or used for effect (bass drops in The New Black).
There is however the matter of remasters. I did a blind comparison of original pressing Somewhere in Time and the 1998 remaster. Original sounds so much nicer to me, but then I'm the type of person that can pick out the drummer's chewing gum noise in a metal record so maybe that doesn't actually matter... :lol
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^^^ Nailed it.
Most people wouldn't even hear the difference unless it's done badly (Death Magnetic) or used for effect (bass drops in The New Black).
There is however the matter of remasters. I did a blind comparison of original pressing Somewhere in Time and the 1998 remaster. Original sounds so much nicer to me, but then I'm the type of person that can pick out the drummer's chewing gum noise in a metal record so maybe that doesn't actually matter... :lol
Indeed, remasters are usually not worth the trouble to buy anyway if you have the original, unless it's also a remix.
For example, the original master of Jeff Buckley's 'Grace' sounds a lot better and breathes a lot more than the remaster or the songs that ended up on 'So Real', his greatest hits album. The only cool thing about that greatest hits album is the liner notes, with musicians making statements about Buckley. I believe even Opeth's Peter Lindgren is in it!
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Doesn't bother me at all. I don't notice it at all unless I do a side by side comparison. Gotta have a frame of reference. If I listen to part of the original Death Magnetic and then the same part of one of the [unofficial] remasters, I certainly hear a big difference, but couldn't identify anything in particular that's different. I tend to hear music, not waveforms.
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Here's a great video regarding Maiden's discography and the loudness war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNJEC1G-fE
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PixelDream summed up my thoughts perfectly. :tup
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If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.
When I'm walking around listening to my Ipod, and have to drastically turn down my volume when any Death Magnetic song or Faceless (godsmack) song come on, then that's an obvious problem.
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Here's a great video regarding Maiden's discography and the loudness war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNJEC1G-fE
I don't know what to make of this video, because honestly, none of those albums are close to what I'd call overproduced.
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Here's a great video regarding Maiden's discography and the loudness war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNJEC1G-fE
I don't know what to make of this video, because honestly, none of those albums are close to what I'd call overproduced.
I think it's just showing you the way the loudness levels have overall increased over the years.
The only Maiden album I would call over compressed is Dance of Death, shit sounding record.
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Call me crazy, but I still think Dance of Death sounds better than Seventh Son-FotD. Those albums aren't too loud; they just sound really bland and lifeless. But yeah, I can definitely see how DoD is still a bottom tier sounding record for Maiden.
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If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.
When I'm walking around listening to my Ipod, and have to drastically turn down my volume when any Death Magnetic song or Faceless (godsmack) song come on, then that's an obvious problem.
This. Very annoying.
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Call me crazy, but I still think Dance of Death sounds better than Seventh Son-FotD. Those albums aren't too loud; they just sound really bland and lifeless. But yeah, I can definitely see how DoD is still a bottom tier sounding record for Maiden.
Again, that's the remastering making them sound bland and lifeless. Go listen to an original pressing of the CD version of any of the Maiden albums that got remastered and you'll not think that it sounds bland and lifeless.
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If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.
When I'm walking around listening to my Ipod, and have to drastically turn down my volume when any Death Magnetic song or Faceless (godsmack) song come on, then that's an obvious problem.
Oh DM isn't that bad.
Like they say. If its too loud, you're too old.
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If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.
When I'm walking around listening to my Ipod, and have to drastically turn down my volume when any Death Magnetic song or Faceless (godsmack) song come on, then that's an obvious problem.
Oh DM isn't that bad.
Like they say. If its too loud, you're too old.
This is a bit different. There's playing something at a high volume (which is the correct way :metal) and there's the loudness war. Something can only go so loud by itself on a CD or digital audio file before it just squashes itself and turns to mush.
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I never really noticed it on DM till it was pointed out.
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Too old for Death Magnetic? haha
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DM didn't display the loudness war problem at it's worst at all, DM just exposed it to a much wider audience and more people became aware of it and the issue started getting recognition on a larger scale.
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DM didn't display the loudness war problem at it's worst at all, DM just exposed it to a much wider audience and more people became aware of it and the issue started getting recognition on a larger scale.
It still made me not able to listen to it all the way through. I think my least favourite case is when my mum had the Fratellis debut album on in the car. The compression pumped it so badly it actually gave me a headache.
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Too old for Death Magnetic? haha
Oh you...
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The Loudness War thing has become a bit of a pseudo-intellectual topic these days TBH.
rumborak
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The Loudness War thing has become a bit of a pseudo-intellectual topic these days TBH.
rumborak
Yup, the in thing now is spotting tuned vocals! :D
Seriously though, don't get into music production/engineering. It ruins everything.
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If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.
To be clear, it's not a big deal to me. I just wanted to see what some of you guys had to say.
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I never really noticed it on DM till it was pointed out.
Really?
I noticed it almost immediately. It makes the record almost painful to listen to.
Obviously there are degrees of overcompression, and on the lower end of the scale, it's not really noticeable. The problem comes with overcompression makes the song noticeably flat in volume, lifeless in production, and when it produces obvious clipping. It can ruin an otherwise good song. On the bad end of the scale, I don't know how it doesn't bother some people.
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Call me crazy, but I still think Dance of Death sounds better than Seventh Son-FotD. Those albums aren't too loud; they just sound really bland and lifeless. But yeah, I can definitely see how DoD is still a bottom tier sounding record for Maiden.
Again, that's the remastering making them sound bland and lifeless. Go listen to an original pressing of the CD version of any of the Maiden albums that got remastered and you'll not think that it sounds bland and lifeless.
Huh?
I think all the other remasters sound great!
???
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The loudness never bothered me but the lack of separation in instruments is my beef.
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The loudness never bothered me but the lack of separation in instruments is my beef.
Yes. This is a pretty common symptom of overcomperssion.
I think the term 'loudness' war can be misleading. Most people don't actually have a problem with the volume being high, but rather that getting the volume that high through compression causes other problems.
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If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.
To be clear, it's not a big deal to me. I just wanted to see what some of you guys had to say.
Oh that wasn't aimed at you. I have seen people in the past who got all riled up about clipping...but only when they noticed it in audacity. Meaning had they never looked at the Wav file, they wouldn't have had a problem. Those people bug me. If you can't hear the problem, then there's no problem for you. (you being anyone, not you specifically).
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:lol
I guess I was being overly sensitive. Anyway, I agree.
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I know it wasn't aimed at me, but I only take issue with it if it's noticeable just from listening to it.
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I know it wasn't aimed at me, but I only take issue with it if it's noticeable just from listening to it.
Good....
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The loudness never bothered me but the lack of separation in instruments is my beef.
Yes. This is a pretty common symptom of overcomperssion.
Only at a very extreme level, which is pretty rare. Even on DM the instruments are all fairly clearly recognisable. That's more commonly a problem with mixing, nothing to do with compression.
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Huh?
I think all the other remasters sound great!
???
They don't sound entirely bad, there's much worse remasters that have been done, but I listen to them and can hear that they sounded much nicer and more lively and breathed more before they remastered it. I made the mistake of buying an original pressing CD and after listening to it I had to get the entire discography again :lol Before that though, I was reasonably happy with their sound.
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The loudness never bothered me but the lack of separation in instruments is my beef.
Yes. This is a pretty common symptom of overcomperssion.
Only at a very extreme level, which is pretty rare. Even on DM the instruments are all fairly clearly recognisable. That's more commonly a problem with mixing, nothing to do with compression.
Yeah, this. The problem is that the instruments' frequency ranges overlap, and that has nothing to do with compression.
rumborak
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Huh?
I think all the other remasters sound great!
???
They don't sound entirely bad, there's much worse remasters that have been done, but I listen to them and can hear that they sounded much nicer and more lively and breathed more before they remastered it. I made the mistake of buying an original pressing CD and after listening to it I had to get the entire discography again :lol Before that though, I was reasonably happy with their sound.
Yea, but if you put the remasters together, it makes a picture of Eddie....
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What I have been doing with my mixes lately has been to leave a lot of headroom going into the mastering stages. Working in 24bit, I keep the master pumping around -12dB. This gives me a lot of room to add compression if i want it for the effects but not to make it too loud and turn to mush. Cause I always have the option to raise volume naturally with the fader. I find that giving a song headroom, preserves the acoustic space of the recording. It also lets your speakers do more of the work of making something loud than the actual recording. This way, if you have great speakers you really get to hear them work.
When something is over compressed it definitely makes everything all mashed together when its also too loud. Extreme compression can sound good when used right, like not using a limiter. Or blending a limited/eqd track with the original dynamic track for the best of both worlds.
Put in I&W and crank that sucker. Then put in Black clouds. You will hear a significant difference in the quality of the recording/mixing. I&W will sound punchy and clear and you will hear the acoustics of the song. While Black Clouds will sound grating to the ear and all around too loud and compressed. Try it out for yourselves.
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Try it out for yourselves.
I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).
I much prefer the production on BC&SL.
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Try it out for yourselves.
I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).
I much prefer the production on BC&SL.
I'm not talking about the production as much as I am the relationship between all the instruments and the lack of space between them in BCSL. The clarity and distinction of I&W is a lot better. Whether or not you like that is totally up to you.
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I actually first noticed this with Fates Warning's Parallels. I cranked that sucker one day, and man, it really does sound good. Even though it was a remaster.
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Yea, but if you put the remasters together, it makes a picture of Eddie....
It's only with the remasters that you get the picture of Eddie from Killers? I thought it was with the original pressing.
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Yea, but if you put the remasters together, it makes a picture of Eddie....
It's only with the remasters that you get the picture of Eddie from Killers? I thought it was with the original pressing.
It's the original Eddie from the debut album. I think somewhere around 7th Son and Fear of The Dark one of them is the wrong way round, so you have to have it facing the other way to get the full picture. :P
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I'm gonna buy an original pressing of Somewhere in Time, and if I don't like it, I'm going to let you know.
I gotta say though, some Remasters are fantastic. Some of those early albums converted to CDs sound really terrible. Like any of the first printing of Yes' discography. The remasters are just so much better sounding.
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I remember sitting down with 'Death Magnetic' for the first time, not having a clue that it completely brickwalled. When the distorted guitars and drums came in, I was impressed: Wow, Metallica sounds heavy again. Then something weird happened. When I was at track 3, I just couldn't stand it anymore. I couldn't take it, it's painful.
Listening to '...And Justice for All' now (the track). Awesome! I'd rather have no bass than a headache.
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I'm gonna buy an original pressing of Somewhere in Time, and if I don't like it, I'm going to let you know.
The main thing noticeable on it is the drums. They sound so much nicer and more like Nicko on the original.
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If it wasn't for that damn Eddie picture I probably wouldn't own Maiden's 90s crapfest. Damn my collectorness.
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Try it out for yourselves.
I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).
I much prefer the production on BC&SL.
I'm not talking about the production as much as I am the relationship between all the instruments and the lack of space between them in BCSL. The clarity and distinction of I&W is a lot better. Whether or not you like that is totally up to you.
I don't understand, the clarity and distinction of different instruments is excellent on BC&SL (the only minor issue being the bass a little too low in the mix for a lot of it, but that has nothing to do with the mastering or compression). I honestly cannot see what people have against the sound on that album.
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Try it out for yourselves.
I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).
I much prefer the production on BC&SL.
I'm not talking about the production as much as I am the relationship between all the instruments and the lack of space between them in BCSL. The clarity and distinction of I&W is a lot better. Whether or not you like that is totally up to you.
I don't understand, the clarity and distinction of different instruments is excellent on BC&SL (the only minor issue being the bass a little too low in the mix for a lot of it, but that has nothing to do with the mastering or compression). I honestly cannot see what people have against the sound on that album.
Here's another thing I don't get. If you play Black Clouds on full volume, and Images and Words on full volume, of course it's going to sound worse. Because Black Clouds is louder! That doesn't mean there's less clarity, it just means that maybe you should play the album at half or three quarters volume, instead, and save full volume for when you're listening to the iPod on the train.
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For a modern metal album in these times, BC&SL sounds quite good actually. Why is everyone using BC&SL as an example? Because it's their latest? SC sounds a lot worse, it has no depth to the sound at all.
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Black Clouds is mastered pretty well. If someone wanted an example of a DT album that wasn't as well mastered (aside from WDADU), SC would be a better choice.
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To be honest, I've never known the loudness war to be an issue for anything other than your usual Top 40 artists and those trying to break into the Top 40.
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I think SC holds together much better both in mastering and mix. BCSL just sounds to squished together. none of the instruments have any breathing room. It also to me has the worst sounding drums out of all the albums.
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I think SC holds together much better both in mastering and mix. BCSL just sounds to squished together. none of the instruments have any breathing room. It also to me has the worst sounding drums out of all the albums.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks BC&SL was a step down from SC. Sure, Systematic Chaos was loud. But it sounded great. Black Clouds sounds good too, but they decided to scale it back in the oddest ways.
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Try it out for yourselves.
I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).
I much prefer the production on BC&SL.
I'm not talking about the production as much as I am the relationship between all the instruments and the lack of space between them in BCSL. The clarity and distinction of I&W is a lot better. Whether or not you like that is totally up to you.
I don't understand, the clarity and distinction of different instruments is excellent on BC&SL (the only minor issue being the bass a little too low in the mix for a lot of it, but that has nothing to do with the mastering or compression). I honestly cannot see what people have against the sound on that album.
Here's another thing I don't get. If you play Black Clouds on full volume, and Images and Words on full volume, of course it's going to sound worse. Because Black Clouds is louder! That doesn't mean there's less clarity, it just means that maybe you should play the album at half or three quarters volume, instead, and save full volume for when you're listening to the iPod on the train.
I'm not sure if I follow you Perpetual. Yes BC&SL sounds worse because it is louder. Using the volume knob has nothing to do with it. Playing it at three quarters volume wont make a difference in clarity, or make it on par with I&W. The latter has more clarity and distinction between the instruments.
Yes mixing defines how the instruments are heard, but even the best mix will be hindered with loud mastering. The more dynamic compression the more squished together the instruments are, thus they are harder to differentiate.
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This whole loudness war dealio doesn't bother me nearly as much as it appears to bother everyone else. I really couldn't care less about how loud an album is. I'm not much of an audiophile.
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^^ Consider yourselves lucky. :P
Yeah, I know I must seem obsessive... and that I am. Just can't help it. Once you hear it, you cannot un-hear it.
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At any given time, I can't hear what half the instruments on Images and Words are playing.
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You're a brave man :omg:
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Why? Myung's no more present than he is on any other CD, probably less so than many. And I can't hear anything other than Portnoy's kick and triggered snare most of the time. Moore's also unfairly buried in a few areas. Love how Shirley brought him out on the remasters.
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hmm, okay...Well I have no idea, I thought there would be a couple of ppl being like >:( :censored >:( :censored "I&W=awesome in anyway possible"
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At any given time, I can't hear what half the instruments on Images and Words are playing.
Ths is a fail of the highest order.
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At any given time, I can't hear what half the instruments on Images and Words are playing.
Ths is a fail of the highest order.
Yes, on Prater's part ;)
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I find it easy to follow all the individual instruments on I&W.
That said it would be interesting to have Kevin Shirley re-mix the whole album without ******* up the dynamics by compressing the hell out of them like on GH.
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The only place where I think Shirley messes up the mix is the bass. It's non-existant. Otherwise, I prefer the GH versions of those songs. I don't see how their note dynamic.
If anything, though, Prater made some good decisions. He hid the flaws of those songs very well.
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It drives me absolutely INSANE. And no, Dream Theater is not OKAY. The wave form on every album going back to and (broadly) including Awake spends more time with it's head smashed up against the wall than it does breathing properly. When you tap to music, you tap to it, you don't smash your head against the wall so hard your skull breaks in half and then occasionally pull it back ever so briefly so you can smash it into the wall again.
Ok, well, that would be an epic metal kind of thing, but then you'd be dead. : |
And yes, the difference can be heard, SIGNIFICANTLY.
If you can't tell, then your ears aren't working right.
I generally avoid studio albums at all costs after about 1995. If there's a vinyl rip available online i'll check that out. Otherwise it has to be bootlegs because frankly, at least the fans know how to not brickwall something most of the time... unless the radio station did it before hand in the case of a broadcast.
I'll grant you, if faced between lossy formats and brickwalling ... well, i don't even know. My head has spent so much time being smashed against the brick wall it's a miracle i'm still alive.
How is Amazon/Apple still charging 99 cents per track for the musical equivalent of a 1950's black and white TV broadcast in the era of HD? ...I'd never waste my money on that or contribute to it.
Artists should and do deserve to be paid for their music, but what do you expect out of me when the far superior copy of your music is the pirated copy? ...
Being that, i actually did buy DT's albums... all of them, but they're all junked in a box somewhere despite the fact i have a couple hundred of their tracks on my playlist.
As for what brought me to this old topic, well, i was just reflecting on the Six Degrees album, which has a VERY thin live culture, along with, Scenes. That whole period in DT history is infuriating, .. not because of the music quality, which was just superb, but because of the pains of trying to avoid the brickwall. Rough AUD tapes are nice for the completist perspective, but a good quality recording is really best.
The more mystifying thing is why artists who clearly have the intelligence to know better let this crap pass? DT for one has been in a position for many years to put up the stop sign to this kind of garbage. Rush is also especially bad, although at least they kind of wised up and remixed some of their later material after the fact.
This crap is not ok. It has never been ok.
If you want the music louder than you can crank it, GET A BETTER STEREO SYSTEM.
Smashing your head against the wall is not ok...
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For one, Record Labels. And two, sadly blame the music industry for it.
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It's frustrating to think that so much of DT's music ought to sound better than it does. When at a friend's last week hanging out, he had his DT playlist cranked up (he is big on making super duper playlists for many of his favorites artists), and when hearing so many of the songs in a row on random, it became so obvious which albums "sound" the best. The songs from I&W all sounded awesome, for example, and the Awake tunes all sounded really good, too. On the flip side, while I've always thought 6DOIT was always one of their better post-90s sounding records, when Blind Faith came on, the drop-off in sound quality from the Images and Awake songs was very glaring. He doesn't have much on the playlist from 2003-2009 (I think just Endless Sacrifice, Octavarium and maybe Count of Tuscany), so we didn't hear anything from that era, and none of the Mangini era songs he has on it played, so I was unable to compare those, although I am well aware that ADTOE is way too muddy.
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It drives me absolutely INSANE. And no, Dream Theater is not OKAY. The wave form on every album going back to and (broadly) including Awake spends more time with it's head smashed up against the wall than it does breathing properly. When you tap to music, you tap to it, you don't smash your head against the wall so hard your skull breaks in half and then occasionally pull it back ever so briefly so you can smash it into the wall again.
Ok, well, that would be an epic metal kind of thing, but then you'd be dead. : |
And yes, the difference can be heard, SIGNIFICANTLY.
If you can't tell, then your ears aren't working right.
I generally avoid studio albums at all costs after about 1995. If there's a vinyl rip available online i'll check that out. Otherwise it has to be bootlegs because frankly, at least the fans know how to not brickwall something most of the time... unless the radio station did it before hand in the case of a broadcast.
I'll grant you, if faced between lossy formats and brickwalling ... well, i don't even know. My head has spent so much time being smashed against the brick wall it's a miracle i'm still alive.
How is Amazon/Apple still charging 99 cents per track for the musical equivalent of a 1950's black and white TV broadcast in the era of HD? ...I'd never waste my money on that or contribute to it.
Artists should and do deserve to be paid for their music, but what do you expect out of me when the far superior copy of your music is the pirated copy? ...
Being that, i actually did buy DT's albums... all of them, but they're all junked in a box somewhere despite the fact i have a couple hundred of their tracks on my playlist.
As for what brought me to this old topic, well, i was just reflecting on the Six Degrees album, which has a VERY thin live culture, along with, Scenes. That whole period in DT history is infuriating, .. not because of the music quality, which was just superb, but because of the pains of trying to avoid the brickwall. Rough AUD tapes are nice for the completist perspective, but a good quality recording is really best.
The more mystifying thing is why artists who clearly have the intelligence to know better let this crap pass? DT for one has been in a position for many years to put up the stop sign to this kind of garbage. Rush is also especially bad, although at least they kind of wised up and remixed some of their later material after the fact.
This crap is not ok. It has never been ok.
If you want the music louder than you can crank it, GET A BETTER STEREO SYSTEM.
Smashing your head against the wall is not ok...
All opinions.
I get that there are some records that it is an element that diminishes the pleasure, but for the most part, if the artist wants/allows it that way, then that's the way it's supposed to be heard. To me, saying "OH! It's too LOUD! It SUCKS!" is no different than saying "OH! It's got too much KAZOO! It SUCKS!".
And the "if you don't hear it, you're [insert appropriate insult]" is possibly the worst argument ever.
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All opinions.
I get that there are some records that it is an element that diminishes the pleasure, but for the most part, if the artist wants/allows it that way, then that's the way it's supposed to be heard. To me, saying "OH! It's too LOUD! It SUCKS!" is no different than saying "OH! It's got too much KAZOO! It SUCKS!".
And the "if you don't hear it, you're [insert appropriate insult]" is possibly the worst argument ever.
*Stares blankly*
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My favourite thing is when people say they don't hear anything wrong with Death Magnetic so we're all just making it up.
The new Green Day isn't as fuzzy as Death Magnetic but when everyone is on full blast - it actually hurts to listen to in headphones.
I'm considering getting the vinyl becasue the CD has a DRM of 4 and the Vinyl is 10 so....Yeah.
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Alter Bridge's latest album is another victim of loudness war. Very tiring to listen to. A shame because I really like the music and I want to listen to it, but in the end the album just makes me and my ears tired.
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I'm considering getting the vinyl becasue the CD has a DRM of 4 and the Vinyl is 10 so....Yeah.
I understand that, but you have to keep in mind vinyl DR ratings are false. This isn't to say it's not more dynamic – I'm sure it is! – just that DR10 isn't actually true. Because it's recorded from playback and then digitized to get the DR analysis, the entire process involved in doing so irreparably changes the DR; everything from the actual source (which has the actual DR) to the mastering prep, cutting engineer, and vinyl manufacturer to the playback deck, recording interface, and input levels alter the picture of the thing. You'll get somewhere close, of course, but it could be entire DR steps off from the actual reading. So many records are pressed from straight playback of the CD nowadays (like the recent Meshuggah boxset) that everyone just assumes the vinyl will sound better when it often is placebo.
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All opinions.
I get that there are some records that it is an element that diminishes the pleasure, but for the most part, if the artist wants/allows it that way, then that's the way it's supposed to be heard. To me, saying "OH! It's too LOUD! It SUCKS!" is no different than saying "OH! It's got too much KAZOO! It SUCKS!".
And the "if you don't hear it, you're [insert appropriate insult]" is possibly the worst argument ever.
*Stares blankly*
If i say the sky appears blue for scientific reasons is that also just an opinion?
What about that we breath air?
Compression isn't an argument, it's a scientific fact.
Recording technology is a scientific fact, not an opinion.
We record sounds onto devices that have a limited spectrum for capture.
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Unless you want to treat this like pro abortion vs pro life... *shakes head*
I can tell you i think pro-lifers are uneducated hicks from the woods.
Then you can tell me that's an opinion and you'd be right
it's still kind of like arguing about how your god is better than my god.
Honestly, if you're going to be pro life, stop eating meat, and stop buying products made by slave labor for a start, and then get back to me about the validity of your position.
Is pro-compression vs not compression honestly a thing?
*head explodes* *can't ... comprehend...*
( I get what you're saying about artistic expression, but given the nature of compression that should be a rare exception, not a genre crossing plague...)
Calm down. No reason to get this worked up. We don't need that here.
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My favourite thing is when people say they don't hear anything wrong with Death Magnetic so we're all just making it up.
The new Green Day isn't as fuzzy as Death Magnetic but when everyone is on full blast - it actually hurts to listen to in headphones.
I'm considering getting the vinyl becasue the CD has a DRM of 4 and the Vinyl is 10 so....Yeah.
But do you get my point? I can't speak for everyone, but I HEAR it, that's not the problem. The problem is that I don't agree that it is "wrong". It's the same as the difference between saying "I don't hear any soloing in Yngvie's songs" versus "Yngvie's soloing is WRONG" versus "I don't like Yngvie's style of playing". Except in the most egregious cases (Vapor Trails is a great example) I don't at all buy the argument that it is somehow "wrong". You're not going to convince me that some of the bands accused of the "loudness war" - Rush, Led Zeppelin, Oasis - don't have enough pull and clout at this stage of their career to say "Nope, not releasing it that way. Sorry, boss.".
It makes zero logical sense.
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Stadler, that seems like a bizarre argument you are making, which is, "The band wanted it to sound that way, so it is fine," when, no, more often than not, it is not. I get that Rush wanted Vapor Trails to sound like it did, for the most part, but that doesn't change the fact that it sounded like a noisy mess when released in 2002. Whether it's wrong or not is largely irrelevant; it is deeply flawed, and it is nearly impossible to argue otherwise, especially when you look at certain albums on those sites that show dynamic range and all that jazz.
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Mostly it's the label that wants it louder and the band have no say.
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Stadler, that seems like a bizarre argument you are making, which is, "The band wanted it to sound that way, so it is fine," when, no, more often than not, it is not. I get that Rush wanted Vapor Trails to sound like it did, for the most part, but that doesn't change the fact that it sounded like a noisy mess when released in 2002. Whether it's wrong or not is largely irrelevant; it is deeply flawed, and it is nearly impossible to argue otherwise, especially when you look at certain albums on those sites that show dynamic range and all that jazz.
Actually, Vapor Trails is the one exception where the band came out and said it's NOT what we were looking for. Geddy has been on record multiple times saying that Rush records are louder than HE PERSONALLY would prefer, but they are all in a range where the band has signed off on the sound, and that they COULD stop it if they wanted to. VT was the exception because they were more interested in getting it out (remember the place that record has in the Rush chronology and what happened before) but that in hindsight that was a mistake. Thus the remix.
I couldn't give two fucks about "dynamic range" from the standpoint that it is not a "standard of quality" in and of itself. Bands make compromises all the time (Rush again; notorious for not putting anything on a record they couldn't recreate live) and this is one of them. Again, I cannot believe that you honestly are arguing that a guy like Springsteen or a band like U2 - that will record an entire album and scrap it because they don't like the way it sounds, that will make a big production about not letting someone use their song because it's "not the way they want their music to be heard", or won't put their music on iTunes/Spotify (now I'm talking about AC/DC) because it's "not the way they want their music to be heard" are going to marshal their baby through 99.8% of the process with loving care, then just completely and utterly ignore the mastering stage (which is where this alleged "problem" arises) and say "ooops, so be it!".
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I've seen Loudness twice in the last few years and they still kick serious ass. I don't know what all the fuss is about.
(https://assets.blabbermouth.net/media/loudnesspromo2014_638.jpg)
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Lock'n'Loll Clazy Night :metal
Every time I see The Survivor Thread I want to pop in and say "Eye of The Tiger roolz" ;D
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Lock'n'Loll Clazy Night :metal
Every time I see The Survivor Thread I want to pop in and say "Eye of The Tiger roolz" ;D
:lol understandably. You'd have one space covered on my Survivor Threadshitter Bingo!
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=19679.msg2167283#msg2167283
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Coz: Delivering the goods since 2007. :)
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:metal
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Two great records that have been really hurt by the loudness war:
Alter Bridge - The Last Hero (squished all the life out of the songs)
Kyng - Breathe in the Water (one of the loudest I have ever heard)
I run a pretty high-end system in my car, and the Kyng record nearly destroyed my speakers. Just sucks. This needs to stop!
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Alter Bridge - The Last Hero (squished all the life out of the songs)
Ain't that the truth. Great record hindered by less-than-ideal mastering.
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Alter Bridge - The Last Hero (squished all the life out of the songs)
Ain't that the truth. Great record hindered by less-than-ideal mastering.
Kills me. I'm an Alter Bridge fanboy. I consider them basically the 2010 decade version of the original lineup of Queensryche, straddling that line between mainstream hard rock and metal with progressive tendencies. Love their catalog. But man, The Last Hero...ugh. damn it!!!
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Now I need to sample this album to see how bad it is.
I remember hearing that the Paul McCartney album Memory Almost Full was really squashed and rented it from my library and the first song or so has a mandolin on and it's really piercing.
It wasn't nice to listen to. You'd think Sir Paul would get the best sounding records.
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Now I need to sample this album to see how bad it is.
I remember hearing that the Paul McCartney album Memory Almost Full was really squashed and rented it from my library and the first song or so has a mandolin on and it's really piercing.
It wasn't nice to listen to. You'd think Sir Paul would get the best sounding records.
Well, it's the record company. ;)
This is my point; literally THE most legendary rock musician currently alive, and worth, literally, billions. He could fart into a kazoo for 40 minutes, and SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE would release it, if not himself on his own label. And HE doesn't have the pull to have a record that someone in their mom's basement with a DR meter doesn't think is pristine? Please.
But I'm waiting for the next argument: He's deaf and doesn't know better. ;)
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Use of technology in audio production is like plastic surgery. If done well, nobody even knows and it enhances the end product. But, many many bands have no idea what's going on and end up sounding like the audio equivalent of Joan Rivers.
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I don't buy the argument for a second that bands have no say so in what the labels do with their records. Sorry, but no. Rush is on record as having complete control over their music since 2112, and I doubt they would have given up control in that area. Same for artists like U2 and McCartney, who are so ridiculously popular that I have a hard time believing that they cannot call the shots 100%. When a band/artist is that popular and their records don't sound great, that is on them, not the label.
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Now I need to sample this album to see how bad it is.
I remember hearing that the Paul McCartney album Memory Almost Full was really squashed and rented it from my library and the first song or so has a mandolin on and it's really piercing.
It wasn't nice to listen to. You'd think Sir Paul would get the best sounding records.
Well, it's the record company. ;)
This is my point; literally THE most legendary rock musician currently alive, and worth, literally, billions. He could fart into a kazoo for 40 minutes, and SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE would release it, if not himself on his own label. And HE doesn't have the pull to have a record that someone in their mom's basement with a DR meter doesn't think is pristine? Please.
But I'm waiting for the next argument: He's deaf and doesn't know better. ;)
If I can use a movie example, I'll go with X-Men Origins: Wolverine. One of the most popular characters of the past 16 years, even at that point. Even if you want to say that the terrible script, terrible acting, terrible story and terrible directing was exactly what the people involved wanted, no argument can be made for the horrible special effects. That was the case of everyone having the means of doing exactly what they want do do, but still screwing it up royally.
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Use of technology in audio production is like plastic surgery. If done well, nobody even knows and it enhances the end product. But, many many bands have no idea what's going on and end up sounding like the audio equivalent of Joan Rivers.
:( your new album.....
:o what is it ?
:( ...it is just......
:o just what ?
:(................
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Spotify has apparently lowered both the overall and average volume of songs. I don't know; I don't listen to Spotify or any other streaming service. This article (https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywgeek/why-spotify-lowered-the-volume-of-songs-and-ended-hegemonic-loudness) goes into some pretty good detail about volume perception and compression, and proclaims that it's the end of the Loudness Wars. I'm not sure it's the end quite yet (other music services will need to follow suit, and the industry itself needs to react), but it's an important first step.
Link (https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywgeek/why-spotify-lowered-the-volume-of-songs-and-ended-hegemonic-loudness)
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It'll end once they stop brickwalling albums up the butt.
Its funny listening to CD's from the mid '80's/'90's.
They're a lot quiter, I have to turn my volume level up quite a bit more to hear it the same level as the modern album before.
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It'll end once they stop brickwalling albums up the butt.
Well, that's the idea. If Spotify and other music streaming services put modulators in place to keep volume consistent, then making any given song or album louder will have no effect; it will still play at the same volume as anything else. The hope is that the industry, once they figure out that compressing the hell out of albums doesn't make any difference (other than making the music sound like shit), will stop doing it. That's why I said it's not the end of the loudness war, but an important first step.
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I just hope they do it in an album basis and not per song. Since we're on a DT forum, think of Wait for Sleep that is deliberately 5dB quieter than the rest of the Images and Words. Gaining the album per track would make WfS stick out as too loud.