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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Slain on July 04, 2010, 10:30:43 AM
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Pretentious - Making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious
To what extent do you think music becomes "Pretentious" and is there such thing as a "right" amount of soloing, or technicality in your song before it becomes too show-offy? And my question would be, does this make any sense? Shouldn't you try to make your songs, or music deviate, and improve, and be better? Is being more original Pretentious? Just some thoughts based on what I hear people saying all of the time.
Just want to see what opinions others have on this subject.
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Hoo-boy, nothing good will come of this thread.
:corn
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Pain of Salvation
that is all
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Dream Theater
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Tool
that is all
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Music cannot be pretentious. However the people playing can.
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Thats a good post. I like it.
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Basically weedly weedly that's boring.
If its good, then its not pretentious. But if its bad, then its just pretentious weedly weedly.
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Music cannot be pretentious. However the people playing can.
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Basically weedly weedly that's boring.
If its good, then its not pretentious. But if its bad, then its just pretentious weedly weedly.
:facepalm:
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Basically weedly weedly that's boring.
If its good, then its not pretentious. But if its bad, then its just pretentious weedly weedly.
:facepalm:
There was no reason to facepalm that, that's a fairly good explanation.
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My Facebook 'about me' says 'pretentious music is the best.' I'm not being ironic, I love it because I'm hugely pretentious. So, Tool.
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I don't think music can be pretentious. Lyrics? Sure. Some lyricists that I think can be pretentious, even if I love the music and the lyrics.
Daniel Gildenlow
Steven Wilson
Neil Peart
Neal Morse
James LaBrie
Maynard Keenan
Gavin Hayes
Before anyone flames me, it should be noted that ALL those artsits are at least in my top 15-20 bands.
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Maybe Peart in the 70's was kinda pretentious, but not so much anymore
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I agree with most of those, but LaBrie? ???
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I don't think music can be pretentious. Lyrics? Sure. Some lyricists that I think can be pretentious, even if I love the music and the lyrics.
Daniel Gildenlow
Steven Wilson
Neil Peart
Neal Morse
James LaBrie
Maynard Keenan
Gavin Hayes
Before anyone flames me, it should be noted that ALL those artsits are at least in my top 15-20 bands.
Labrie?
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Yeah, how is LaBrie pretentious?
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Basically weedly weedly that's boring.
If its good, then its not pretentious. But if its bad, then its just pretentious weedly weedly.
:facepalm:
There was no reason to facepalm that, that's a fairly good explanation.
So, anything you don't like is pretentious? Really? ::)
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Jason Mraz
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Yeah, how is LaBrie pretentious?
I don't think music can be pretentious. Lyrics? Sure. Some lyricists that I think can be pretentious, even if I love the music and the lyrics.
Daniel Gildenlow
Steven Wilson
Neil Peart
Neal Morse
James LaBrie
Maynard Keenan
Gavin Hayes
Before anyone flames me, it should be noted that ALL those artsits are at least in my top 15-20 bands.
Labrie?
I agree with most of those, but LaBrie? ???
Yeah. All of this.
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I'm confused.
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Lyrics: Tool
Solos: TOT and SC Dream theater
BOTH: POS
*runs*
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I don't think there's anything particularly pretentious about prog. It's all about excess, sure, but that's not pretentious in of itself. Quite the opposite, I think that level of exuberance is ridiculously honest and up-front.
https://sandsnowman.blogspot.com/ This kind of stuff is far, far, far more pretentious. It's a big ol' facade, there's no directness or truth to it. You don't think "ooh yes, when he says he established a musical cosmos full of bright wonder, that's exactly how I consider his music," he's basically putting a hand between himself and the listener and saying "listen. this. this is proper art. look at all the levels that this is arty. oh this isn't just music this is more of a landscape, interpretted through a lens of sound, like looking out at the universe from the inside of a bubble: distorted, but beautiful." He's trying to justify it as something more than it is - and that, to me, is far more pompous and alienating than even the most self-indulgent progressive rock band.
Bands like Dream Theater and Yes and Symphony X are just out to make rocking songs and, if they're lucky, tell a good story as they go along. They'll sneak in little nuggets, but at the core they just write damn good music and pour all their soul into it. (If that's what you're into, anyway. Not a huge Yes fan myself.) It's what it says on the package, and they really honestly just want as many people to hop on as possible. You can see exactly what they're doing at every step. A big stonking song is just a big stonking song. Take it or leave it. They've not sampled the noise of a wagon wheel creaking and played it backwards to symbolise a regression to the victorian era. They wouldn't call themselves "emotional architects" or insist that their music be played at night, in a forest. And it sure as hell isn't a soundscape.
As music buzzwords go, I'm finding that pretentious is one of the most constantly misaimed. Prog's twisty and turny like a thriller, or a really clever cop show. Life on Mars comes to mind. Nothing pretentious, it just aims to thrill and do it in a clever and surprising way. The stuff that tries to be modern art or makes an effort to mimic high culture is the pretentious stuff. It's the musical equivalent of me walking around for five days with an HD camera strapped to my balls (it's a statement about fertility and libido, promise).
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Rob hit the nail on the head. Take the band Electro Quarterstaff for example: they're a pretty good instrumental tech metal band, but nothing mindblowing. Here's the description from their myspace:
thrash metal that freely incorporates stylistic aspects common to technical death metal, doom, grind, prog rock, and modern classical in an effort to deliver direct, propulsive attacks to the senses. While we embrace a sprawling sense of complexity, we are untrained musicians and feel the application of musical theory is a burden on the creative consciousness and thus strive for an organic "feels good sounds good" approach to songwriting which eschews an exclusive reliance on technical skill and the typical Dream Theater douchebaggery. We're insatiable riffmongers determined to redefine the limits of creativity and are committed to the constant challenge of pushing structural arrangements further than what could be expected without embracing unnecessary emotional or musical cliches. We're amateurs on our respective instruments but confident in our ability to come up with some neat shit that isn't fucking repetitive or predictable.
In one paragraph they made themselves look like bigger cunts than DT has done in their 20+ year career.
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They're actually projecting a really bizarre image. They seem like they can't decide whether they're pretentious "riffmongers" or workin' class cock-er-naaaaays and shit YEAH THAT'S RIGHT WE SAID SHIT.
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How has Dream Theater made themselves look like 'cunts'?
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My Facebook 'about me' says 'pretentious music is the best.' I'm not being ironic, I love it because I'm hugely pretentious. So, Tool.
Honesty ftw!
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Basically weedly weedly that's boring.
If its good, then its not pretentious. But if its bad, then its just pretentious weedly weedly.
:facepalm:
I mean in terms of the general media. Pretentious is the most used phrase used to deface prog and its brethren. So if someone doesn't like a prog band, its because they are pretentious. If they like them, then they aren't pretentious. Get what I'm saying?
There was no reason to facepalm that, that's a fairly good explanation.
So, anything you don't like is pretentious? Really? ::)
Edit: Why did it delete my comment?
REPOSTING IT AHHHHHHH
I was referring to the media in general. If they happen to like a prog band, well they'll say its because they make good music. If someone in the media hates a prog band, its because they are pretentious weedly weedly.
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How has Dream Theater made themselves look like 'cunts'?
They haven't.
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I don't think there's anything particularly pretentious about prog. It's all about excess, sure, but that's not pretentious in of itself. Quite the opposite, I think that level of exuberance is ridiculously honest and up-front.
That's an interesting way of thinking about it.
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I think Indie is the most pretentious genre. I pretty much live smack in the middle of yuppie territory, and from what I've seen and heard Indie is nothing but completely exclusive, cliquish, and judgmental beneath its egalitarian "everyone can do it" veneer.
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I think it totally depends on what you mean by indie; I'm surrounded by lo-fi 'let's all play circuit-bent toy synths and kazoos' hipsters, and there's certainly a pretentious undercurrent running through that kind of stuff, but there's plenty of other indie bands out there that are just like any other band.
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Hey Perpetual Change, just dropping by for my daily "I wish I could hate you to death" post.
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Hey Perpetual Change, just dropping by for my daily "I wish I could hate you to death" post.
I can get behind this :)
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I don't like Indie at all but I wouldn't go so far as to say all of it is pretentious. A decent bit, sure, but there are bands in EVERY type of music that can be labeled pretentious.
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Basically weedly weedly that's boring.
If its good, then its not pretentious. But if its bad, then its just pretentious weedly weedly.
What the fuck? :lol
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Basically weedly weedly that's boring.
If its good, then its not pretentious. But if its bad, then its just pretentious weedly weedly.
What the fuck? :lol
Is reading comprehension that difficult?
I said before, I was referring to the general consensus in regards to prog. If its enjoyed, then its good. If its bad, its simply labeled as pretentious.
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In his defense, the wording threw me off as well.
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My comment was mostly referring to....weedly weedly.
And yeah. I find reading comprehension to be monumentally difficult.
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Regarding lyrics, Steven Wilson's are sometimes nauseatingly pretentious.
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I don't know that there's a ton of actually pretentious music out there.
However, there are a ton of pretentious music fans.
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Megadeth seems a bit pretentious, imo.
I just don't like Dave Mustaine.
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I can't say I really see what's wrong with music, or art in any form, being pretentious.
Some people take what they're capable of and run with it. They work with extremes, because that's what they enjoy doing. Some people don't, they're happy to work in a realm of comfort, doing what could be considered more pedestrian, because that's what they enjoy doing. It's possible to stumble upon new territory doing either (though I don't think it's equally as likely). Neither of these is the better way of doing things. There are examples of good and bad output in both.
Some people take what they do seriously, and approach it as an art form which they hold in higher regard than others. They're personally involved in it; this is perfectly reasonable. Some people don't; they just want to have fun and bash their instruments or throw paint around and see what comes out. Neither of these is the better way of doing things. There are examples of good and bad output in both.
Of course, in most cases, it's not as simple as fitting into either of two opposites, but you get my point.
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I don't know that there's a ton of actually pretentious music out there.
However, there are a ton of pretentious music fans.
Oh, this 1000% Artists care about their craft and that, in it self, is not pretentious, fans bias can be too strong and pretentious.
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Regarding lyrics, Steven Wilson's are sometimes nauseatingly pretentious.
Trudat.
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Fluffy just won the thread.
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I don't know, there's been a lot of posts saying "there is no pretentious music. There's only fan bias, or pretentious artists, or etc. etc.".
You can try to argue away things with superficially good-sounding arguments, but I think everybody has at least had once the gut feeling upon listening "ugh jeez, that is so pretentious".
Music is an expression of the artist. If the artist himself is pretentious, very likely will the music reflect that. Yes, Einstein, music is not a human being and thus isn't directly pretentious, but when people say a song or album is pretentious, they're clearly talking about the artist's pretentiousness having been imprinted onto the song.
And of course, prog is the master of pretentiousness. Prog almost defines itself as "music as big a piece as the artist can swallow", but in more cases than not the artist just stuffed his mouth full of Twinkies, in the hope nobody will notice.
There's few prog artists who really can fill the shoes of the lyrics they're attempting to write. Neil Peart is one of them IMHO. DT luckily stays away from it, partly probably because none of the guys even think about those big topics.
rumborak
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But an artist can write music that's very pretentious and it can be brilliant. Others can do the same thing and it can suck. In the end, even if pretentiousness has immediate negative connotations for us, I don't think it's a negative quality for music to have in and of itself. It's more whether or not an artist becomes misguided by his pretentions that makes the music turn sour.