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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: OperantChamber on July 01, 2010, 07:40:27 AM
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I'm sure most people can agree that the instrumental section in Metropolis Pt. 1 is great, but why is it an instrumental section like the one in Endless Sacrifice hated?
*Runs.
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I don't know, I love both of them.
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Personally I think the instrumental section in Metropolis somehow fits, while in Endless Sacrifice it's kinda out of place. Most of the song is quite dark and melancholic, and the instrumental section is just fast and technical.
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Personally I think the instrumental section in Metropolis somehow fits, while in Endless Sacrifice it's kinda out of place. Most of the song is quite dark and melancholic, and the instrumental section is just fast and technical.
Were DT songs ever consistent? I love the instrumental section of Endless Sacrifice precisely because it presents an awesome transition.
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I also dislike the Endless Sacrifice intrumental section. Seems too forced.
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Endless Sacrifice would be better if they removed the solo tradeoff near the end of the instrumental section.
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I don't know, I love both of them.
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Metropolis instrumental is phenomenal and their best in my opinion. Endless sacrifice has a cool instrumental portion, but it doesn't sound as original and spontaneous. Some good riffs, but I find it kinda repetitive. Still good, though.
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Metropolis Pt. 1 is a DT classic and the instrumental is a large part of that. ES is a completely different animal. Although I don't hate the ES instrumental, there really is no comparison.
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I don't know, I love both of them.
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Other than the usual responses, which is what these past posts were. Why else is the instrumental in Endless Sacrifice so hated, when it fits the context of the song? It transitions perfectly into and ending with that same heaviness. Personally Metropolis sounds less smooth and more a wankfest, it's probably cause it has the classic label meaning it's superior than the new.
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I really like both, The instrumental section in Metropolis is what makes that song listenable to me, but I must say that the Endless sacrifice instrumental section is better, so technical and hard and awesome, and unexpected, that's nice aswell.
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I wouldn't have any problems with the Endless Sacrifice instrumental if it was in a different song, but here it just doesn't fit. The song has a strong atmosphere, and then the instrumental appears and kind of ruins it. It's not like e.g. The Ministry of Lost Souls where the instrumental actually sounds dramatic and fits well despite sounding quite different, here it's just... well, out of nowhere.
As for Metropolis, they have many better instrumentals, but it's just a good one and doesn't feel out of place.
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Metropolis pt.1, if I remember correctly, was originally written as an instrumental. That's why the instrumental portion fits as well as it does.
With Endless Sacrifice, I don't have a problem with the entire instrumental break; just a small portion of it. It's a moody, melodic song, and then in the middle of it, we get circus noises. It's seriously a handful of seconds that ruin that instrumental break for me.
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I find that with a lot of I&W (era) songs, the instrumental sections seemed like an intrinsic part of the song's identity, as opposed to simply an obligation by the band. If anything, the instrumental sections in Metropolis, Learning To Live and Under A Glass Moon are actually more memorable to me than the 'actual song' parts.
Conversely, in basically everything post (suprisingly, even to me as I realise it) Falling Into Infinity, the instrumental sections seem to simply be there largely for the sake of it. Sure, the sections in Home, Glass Prison, Misunderstood and Endless Sacrifice etc are very good, but they seem to play second fiddle to the more traditional sections of the songs they're in, whereas in the I&W-FII era the instrumental sections really felt like they had as much, if not probably more effort, put into them as the verses and choruses.
Just my two cents, and I suppose all of that's entirely subjective.
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I wouldn't have any problems with the Endless Sacrifice instrumental if it was in a different song, but here it just doesn't fit. The song has a strong atmosphere, and then the instrumental appears and kind of ruins it. It's not like e.g. The Ministry of Lost Souls where the instrumental actually sounds dramatic and fits well despite sounding quite different, here it's just... well, out of nowhere.
As for Metropolis, they have many better instrumentals, but it's just a good one and doesn't feel out of place.
I like it when stuff is like, out of nowehere, I think all this talk about that something doesn't "fit" is just ridicoulus
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For me, the problems with the ES instrumental section are (1) is isn't nearly as well constructed as, e.g., Metropolis and (2) it feels out of place in the song.
As for not being well contructed, I don't mean that it doesn't transition in and out of the song well. The transitions are actually pretty good. But it's very random and far too showy for the type of song it is in (which overlaps into point #2). The instrumental section in Metropolis is also random and over the top, but it feels like it was constructed to sound that way, and in the context of the song, that mood fits. Even if the ES instrumental section was very deliberately crafted to sound chaotic, it doesn't come across that way. It just comes across as random.
And as far as fitting, as has been pointed out, the mood of ES is somewhat dark and extremely emotional. It is about questioning one's life choices that keep him and his family apart and have taken a toll on the family relationship. I realize the "feel" of an instrumental section is largely subjective, but the instrumental section doesn't feel to me like it fits that vibe at all. I don't hate it, and I can appreciate it, but it detracts from the feeling the song is trying to create.
Personally Metropolis sounds less smooth and more a wankfest, it's probably cause it has the classic label meaning it's superior than the new.
Sorry, but honestly, that's just a dumb thing to say. Something is not superior simply because it is old.
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Take our administrator, for example...
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Metropolis, Pt 1 is the one that started it all. They were intentionally trying to get as nuts as they could, but still make it work. I think they made it work. Despite taking off and going completely insane for a few, it comes back and you feel like you've been on an awesome trip.
A lot of the instrumental sections recently sound like they're just there because at some point they decided "and then we'll have an awesome instrumental section, then the chorus comes back..." so they wrote one. They don't feel like they grow organically out of the song itself. Now, shocking transitions can be cool, but even that can be overdone.
As much as I love Dream Theater and admire their chops and all that, most of what they've done recently just hasn't grabbed me, and I think that's partly because they've done it all before. Not necessarily better, but already done. Too much of it seems like "the quest to make all songs as long as possible" and "we will now amaze you with yet another highly technical instrumental". But mostly it's "people fucking love Metropolis part one so let's just do every song like that".
The stuff on Images and Words somehow feels more genuine to me. They weren't trying to live up to anything, they were still proving themselves and laying it all out there, but only after refining those tunes for years. That's why the early "classic" stuff is superior.
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Excellent post, Orbert. :tup :tup
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Thanks! :tup
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I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...
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Metropolis, Pt 1 is the one that started it all. They were intentionally trying to get as nuts as they could, but still make it work. I think they made it work. Despite taking off and going completely insane for a few, it comes back and you feel like you've been on an awesome trip.
A lot of the instrumental sections recently sound like they're just there because at some point they decided "and then we'll have an awesome instrumental section, then the chorus comes back..." so they wrote one. They don't feel like they grow organically out of the song itself. Now, shocking transitions can be cool, but even that can be overdone.
As much as I love Dream Theater and admire their chops and all that, most of what they've done recently just hasn't grabbed me, and I think that's partly because they've done it all before. Not necessarily better, but already done. Too much of it seems like "the quest to make all songs as long as possible" and "we will now amaze you with yet another highly technical instrumental". But mostly it's "people fucking love Metropolis part one so let's just do every song like that".
The stuff on Images and Words somehow feels more genuine to me. They weren't trying to live up to anything, they were still proving themselves and laying it all out there, but only after refining those tunes for years. That's why the early "classic" stuff is superior.
:tup
The best recent instrumentals to me are easily the one in Octavarium and the beginning of TCOT. Everything else isn't quite on par, although I do love them (fanboy). Yet the older stuff did indeed feel more genuine.
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I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...
::)
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Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.
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Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.
THIS THIS, I'm always thinking about how awesome TMoLS would be if it was a suite instead of just one song.
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I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...
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Elaborate?
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GUITAR SOLO
KEYBOARD SOLO
GUITAR SOLO
WEE-DEE-LEE-DEE-LEE-WEE-DOO!
Or what Orbert said.
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The "Metropolis" instrumental - and I would argue this is the case with many of their old instrumentals - is as catchy as a chorus.
The "Endless Sacrifice" instrumental - and I would argue this is the case with many of their new instrumentals - is a boring guitar-keyboard shred duel.
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First of all I do want to say that I am a bit biased because I have a personal connection to the lyrics of this song.
I wouldn't have any problems with the Endless Sacrifice instrumental if it was in a different song, but here it just doesn't fit. The song has a strong atmosphere, and then the instrumental appears and kind of ruins it. It's not like e.g. The Ministry of Lost Souls where the instrumental actually sounds dramatic and fits well despite sounding quite different, here it's just... well, out of nowhere.
Funny, TMoLS is one of the few instrumentals I feel should have been used somewhere else.
Metropolis pt.1, if I remember correctly, was originally written as an instrumental. That's why the instrumental portion fits as well as it does.
With Endless Sacrifice, I don't have a problem with the entire instrumental break; just a small portion of it. It's a moody, melodic song, and then in the middle of it, we get circus noises. It's seriously a handful of seconds that ruin that instrumental break for me.
I'd agree if the 'circus noises' were in the middle of a verse or chorus, (where the song is moody and melodic) but they're in the middle of the chaotic and fast paced instrumental section. Also, I listen to stuff like Diablo Swing/Unexpect/Akphaezya so circus noises are more than welcome.
As for not being well contructed, I don't mean that it doesn't transition in and out of the song well. The transitions are actually pretty good. But it's very random and far too showy for the type of song it is in (which overlaps into point #2). The instrumental section in Metropolis is also random and over the top, but it feels like it was constructed to sound that way, and in the context of the song, that mood fits. Even if the ES instrumental section was very deliberately crafted to sound chaotic, it doesn't come across that way. It just comes across as random.
And as far as fitting, as has been pointed out, the mood of ES is somewhat dark and extremely emotional. It is about questioning one's life choices that keep him and his family apart and have taken a toll on the family relationship. I realize the "feel" of an instrumental section is largely subjective, but the instrumental section doesn't feel to me like it fits that vibe at all. I don't hate it, and I can appreciate it, but it detracts from the feeling the song is trying to create.
Both instrumental sections are pretty showy, random, and chaotic. I wouldn't say either is doing more of any one of those things.
As for the vibe, I totally get where you are coming from but I look at this way: I once saw a poster here say that the instrumental in Metropolis felt like a tour through the city. (Might've been one of you guys in this thread!) The instrumental in ES, to me of course, feels like a display of what they are making the sacrifice for. It might be a bit of a stretch for some, and that's perfectly fine too.
A lot of the instrumental sections recently sound like they're just there because at some point they decided "and then we'll have an awesome instrumental section, then the chorus comes back..." so they wrote one. They don't feel like they grow organically out of the song itself. Now, shocking transitions can be cool, but even that can be overdone.
The stuff on Images and Words somehow feels more genuine to me. They weren't trying to live up to anything, they were still proving themselves and laying it all out there, but only after refining those tunes for years. That's why the early "classic" stuff is superior.
So would you agree that a person that did not start with I&W wouldn't feel this way? Also, I've heard several times that DT songs emerge from jam sessions. I don't think they're deliberately stuffing instrumentals into every song, but I'd say it is a possibility.
This just made me wonder what Wither would be like with a 4 minute jam. :lol
Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.
THIS THIS, I'm always thinking about how awesome TMoLS would be if it was a suite instead of just one song.
I don't care much for TMoLS for a couple of reasons, but I love the instrumental that's buried in there. A suite would've been great.
The "Metropolis" instrumental - and I would argue this is the case with many of their old instrumentals - is as catchy as a chorus.
The "Endless Sacrifice" instrumental - and I would argue this is the case with many of their new instrumentals - is a boring guitar-keyboard shred duel.
Most of the section has some banging rhythm riffs. Pretty catchy to me.
A shrug emote would be great here.
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You have a personal connection the lyrics of Metropolis?
........julian?
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I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...
::)
Elaborate?
Probably not really necessary.
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You have a personal connection the lyrics of Metropolis?
........julian?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
I guess I should've clarifired.
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Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.
Oh, I quite like their transitions. Especially Endless Sacrifice. I really love that moment where it explodes. Shit gets real, as they say. Foreshadowed in the heavy choruses, too. I think it works.
I'll also say that the orchestral noises are the highlight for me, but I do think it goes on a bit too long with too much repetition.
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The ES "instrumental" section doesn't feel like an instrumental piece of composition so much as solos trading back and forth between JP and JR. They aren't the same thing.
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That's actually a good point about some of the modern instrumental sections, they repeat the sections a bit much.
"Well, we already played riff A under the solo, let's play it 16 more times, after 8 I'll add in some splash cymbals or something"
"Totally, then we can do it 18 more times with JR doing a generic JR riff over it that doesn't fit in the slightest bit"
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This thread has made me go listen to Endless Sacrifice again.
God tier instrumental section.
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The first 3/4 of the instrumental section in "Endless Sacrifice" is definitely a mixed bag for me, but the last bit of it (with that heavy riffing and Portnoy going nuts on the double bass drums) is pretty killer.
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The first 3/4 of the instrumental section in "Endless Sacrifice" is definitely a mixed bag for me, but the last bit of it (with that heavy riffing and Portnoy going nuts on the double bass drums) is pretty killer.
It definitely gets better as it goes. And the end of the song is golden.
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A shrug emote would be great here.
:dunno:
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A lot of the instrumental sections recently sound like they're just there because at some point they decided "and then we'll have an awesome instrumental section, then the chorus comes back..." so they wrote one. They don't feel like they grow organically out of the song itself. Now, shocking transitions can be cool, but even that can be overdone.
The stuff on Images and Words somehow feels more genuine to me. They weren't trying to live up to anything, they were still proving themselves and laying it all out there, but only after refining those tunes for years. That's why the early "classic" stuff is superior.
So would you agree that a person that did not start with I&W wouldn't feel this way?
If a band has a lot of albums out, it seems natural that you'd often prefer the era or specific album that you heard first. As it happens, I started with I & W, so I'm all over the early stuff. I've tried to imagine what it would be like to have started with the more recent stuff and gone back. It seems like it would work better. For me, a lot of what DT is doing now just isn't breaking a lot of new ground. Someone going back would get to hear the roots of the modern DT sound, and it would hopefully sound more raw, more fresh, more adventurous to them.
DT has gotten bolder and better at some things; it's not like everything they're doing now is crap. It's just that they've made a lot of music now, and are starting to run out of horizons to chase down.
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I started with Train Of Thought, and definitely agree with Orbert.
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Endless Sacrifice has the same problem as TMoLS. I love the instrumental sections of both songs, but the problem is they are placed in songs where they do not belong. With a bit of tweaking and lengthening, they could make great stand alone instrumental tracks. But within the songs, they just seem...out of place.
I agree with all of this!
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I'm ok with the first paragraph, but sorry, the rest is typical "back in I&W days it was all awesome". The modern instrumental sections aren't in any way inferior or any more of a technical show-off than they were in the early days. They are built mostly equally well, fit the song equally well if not better (Endless Sacrifice is the only counter-example in the entire discography that comes to my mind) and have just as much soul. Metropolis wasn't even the one to start it, The Killing Hand was. If you like Metropolis' instrumental the most - very well, but saying recent instrumentals have less soul or trying to write Metropolis again (?!?!) is seriously stretched and feels like what I said in the first sentence...
::)
Elaborate?
Probably not really necessary.
Sorry, I forgot there's only one correct point of view. Here, let me fix it:
METROPOLIS IS THE BEST SONG EVER BECAUSE IT'S A CLASSIC
Am I awesome now?
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If a band has a lot of albums out, it seems natural that you'd often prefer the era or specific album that you heard first. As it happens, I started with I & W, so I'm all over the early stuff. I've tried to imagine what it would be like to have started with the more recent stuff and gone back. It seems like it would work better. For me, a lot of what DT is doing now just isn't breaking a lot of new ground. Someone going back would get to hear the roots of the modern DT sound, and it would hopefully sound more raw, more fresh, more adventurous to them.
DT has gotten bolder and better at some things; it's not like everything they're doing now is crap. It's just that they've made a lot of music now, and are starting to run out of horizons to chase down.
Ok I see what you mean and I could absolutely see myself feeling the same way if I had known about DT back in the I&W days. I also think that the fact you've seen each album come over the course of many years makes the music less impactful than it is to a guy like me jumping in 9 albums into their career.
Working my way backwards from SC made the younger albums feel like they were still piecing together what DT would become. I'm one of those guys that thinks DT truly came into form with JR and Metropolis Pt. 2.
I've just felt like some people were being unfair with the new material but I understand why you feel the way you do.
Thanks Orbert!
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Orbert's made some great points here.
I've been on board with DT since right before I&W came out. Whether you expeience a band in real time, or go back throught their catalog, each provides a unique journey. Being an "older" fan, I actually have never felt like their best days are behind them. Never. To me, I&W is one of those magical albums that comes along very rarely. It's not just my favorite DT album, it's my fave album of all time.
Back then, the instrumental section in Metorpolis Pt1 was all about "We're Dream Theater, and this is what we do". It basically became a signature section. No instrumental section in their catalog will have or be able to recreate the same impact that it did, at least for me.
That being said, I LOVE the Endless Sacrifice intrumental section. To me it signifies the tension and struggles of being separated, but it then evolves musically into a sort of reconciliation of the situation.
I also happen to like TMOLS section as well. In fact, the only time I've ever thought of a forced instrumental section was the first time I heard New Milennium.
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I also have been onboard since I&W, and I also agree that "I&W is one of those magical albums that comes along very rarely." And yet, it's not my favorite DT album. To me, as good as I&W is, they took everything that was already phenominal about I&W and Awake, and took it to a whole new, previousy unexplored level with SFAM, and then did the same all over again with 6DOIT. To me, they've topped I&W at least twice (and depending on my mood at any given moment, I might say they topped it again with Octavarium and BCSL). Will they top it again? I don't know and I don't care. When the standard is so high, and you have a band that repeatedly comes close to such a high standard, I don't really care whether they actually surpass it again.
So all that being said, I say merely to illustrate an example of another "old-timer" who doesn't think Metropolis is better just because it's old. As I said earlier, it just feels better constructed and feels like it fits the mood, tone, and music of the song better than the ES instrumental.
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Bosk, I'm with you on SFAM, my 2nd fave DT album.
I really liked 6D's when it came out, moreso because of Disc 1. I know you like Disc 2 very much.
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So all that being said, I say merely to illustrate an example of another "old-timer" who doesn't think Metropolis is better just because it's old. As I said earlier, it just feels better constructed and feels like it fits the mood, tone, and music of the song better than the ES instrumental.
This, plus I don't know any "old-timers" who think any of the old stuff is better just because it's old. That's just a silly thing to say about anyone here, and frankly I'm getting tired of it.
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And I haven't said anything age-related, I don't know where you're getting that from.
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And I haven't said anything age-related, I don't know where you're getting that from.
I don't know anyone else who likes the older stuff just because it's old, either. I was just saying that as an old-timer.
It's as stupid as accusing people of preferring the newer albums just because they're new. That's just stupid.
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I haven't said even that. I said it feels to me Metropolis and in general older songs are favoured by some people because everything back then was great by definition and now everything is "soulless and over the top".
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I haven't said even that. I said it feels to me Metropolis and in general older songs are favoured by some people because everything back then was great by definition and now everything is "soulless and over the top".
That's what I'm getting at. The older ones aren't favored "because everything back then was great by definition." They are favored because they weren't soulless and over the top (for the most part). The age of the song has nothing to do with it. So enough.
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I love the song Metrpolis Part 1 to an infinitely high brilliantly awesome amount, but the instrumental section doesn't stand out to me as a whole (except for the fact that 5:50 was the first DT I ever heard, played every time the guitar tech at work tested out a new amp or was noodling around so I'll always remember that!). But like someone else said, it totally fits, it doesn't feel like oh here's a song, bam here's an instrumental section, oh here's a song again like some songs do (Sacrificed Sons for example in a biiiiig way).
But in terms of emotional content, the instrumental from SS, and Endless Sacrifice, and a whole heap of other Dream Theater songs get to me in a way that the Metropolis instrumental just can't. Apart from the ridiculous 6:30 keyboard abomination in Endless Sacrifice that song gets to me sooo much. I think I settled on choosing a section of that for a presentation I did at uni on progressive metal, I only had about 30 seconds to a minute's space to play some actual music so I went for part of that... even got a rush just from whacking it on and standing awkwardly for a minute while everyone listened :heart
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Damn, I love it when hot women can talk intelligently about music!
I'm sorry if that sounds sexist (because it is) but... damn.
If someone ever created a reality TV show called "Hot Women Talking Intelligently About Music" I guarantee you it would be a hit. I would watch that show every day.
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As an old fart I think DT has lost some of it's melody in the instrumental parts. That's why I love TCOT & Octavarium because it was more melodic than some of the newer songs. I think olf fogeys like the heavy with the melody. Mabye the other old fogey's will disagree but that's how I feel.
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Damn, I love it when hot women can talk intelligently about music!
I'm sorry if that sounds sexist (because it is) but... damn.
If someone ever created a reality TV show called "Hot Women Talking Intelligently About Music" I guarantee you it would be a hit. I would watch that show every day.
Thanks... I love it when anyone talks intelligently about music but it seems to be kinda a rarity unless you're somewhere like here! I actually think it would be a hit with a teeny tiny niche market but no body else and therefore not really a hit and probably get pulled off the air really quickly.
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I love the instrumental bits in Sacrificed Sons...
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Damn, I love it when hot women can talk intelligently about music!
I'm sorry if that sounds sexist (because it is) but... damn.
If someone ever created a reality TV show called "Hot Women Talking Intelligently About Music" I guarantee you it would be a hit. I would watch that show every day.
Thanks... I love it when anyone talks intelligently about music but it seems to be kinda a rarity unless you're somewhere like here! I actually think it would be a hit with a teeny tiny niche market but no body else and therefore not really a hit and probably get pulled off the air really quickly.
Yeah, it would be about as popular as prog is on the radio. I guess I got a bit carried away there.
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I ... agree that "I&W is one of those magical albums that comes along very rarely." And yet, it's not my favorite DT album. To me, as good as I&W is, they took everything that was already phenominal about I&W and Awake, and took it to a whole new, previousy unexplored level with 6DOIT. To me, they've topped I&W at least twice (and depending on my mood at any given moment, I might say they topped it again with Octavarium and BCSL). Will they top it again? I don't know and I don't care. When the standard is so high, and you have a band that repeatedly comes close to such a high standard, I don't really care whether they actually surpass it again.
Minor changes for me, but we seem to view DT pretty commonly.
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Metropolis instrumental is very well structured, the transitions are really well done and you can see the gradual rise in dissonance and intensity as it goes on. That and there's no real big solo tradeoff formula going on, it's simply an instrumental section in the truest sense, and it evolves. Entirely personally, I see it as going with the whole "as a man/as a child" loss of innocence theme, with it going through Childhood with all the Hemispheres chords and the peppy Sonic the Hedgehog unision, then Adolescence with that one riff and guitar solo, and then finally Adulthood with the craziness going haywire.
I actually don't mind the ES instrumental. If it weren't for the very drawn out unision sections with that one slow riff at the end of it, it would be better. I don't think it even feels very out of place, I just think it's really very unremarkable, some tradeoffs here and there, some riffs, nothing all that special. I just sort of get through it so I can get to the cool "OVAH THA DEE-STENCE..." sections.
But, I don't think not-so-good instrumentals stuck in decent songs are as unfortunate as sort of neat instrumental sections in not-so-good songs, like TDEN in my opinion.
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Also, I have to agree with what Orbert said as well, what you listened to first is pretty important
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But, I don't think not-so-good instrumentals stuck in decent songs are as unfortunate as sort of neat instrumental sections in not-so-good songs, like TDEN in my opinion.
Wow, that section kicks all sorts of ass!
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As an old fart I think DT has lost some of it's melody in the instrumental parts. That's why I love TCOT & Octavarium because it was more melodic than some of the newer songs. I think olf fogeys like the heavy with the melody. Mabye the other old fogey's will disagree but that's how I feel.
I'm a 43-yr-old fogey, and I COMPLETELY agree with you that melody is the make-or-break factor. ALL of the instrumental sections in Images and Words were VERY melodic, whereas modern ones often aren't. Moore influence? (oh no I went there)
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As an old fart I think DT has lost some of it's melody in the instrumental parts. That's why I love TCOT & Octavarium because it was more melodic than some of the newer songs. I think olf fogeys like the heavy with the melody. Mabye the other old fogey's will disagree but that's how I feel.
I'm a 43-yr-old fogey, and I COMPLETELY agree with you that melody is the make-or-break factor. ALL of the instrumental sections in Images and Words were VERY melodic, whereas modern ones often aren't. Moore influence? (oh no I went there)
I actually don't think it was the Moore influence.
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Kevin Moore's stamp is definitely on I&W. Heck, he was 1/4th of the musicians that wrote it...and if you discount MP as a notes-smith, Moore would have an even stronger influence. I'm sure he had quite an impact on the band dynamic during that period.
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No, I meant that I don't think it is a lack of Moore that has caused the change. I think it is the presence of JP and MP.
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Sure... The band has simply evolved. I still like them as much now as I ever have!
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No, I meant that I don't think it is a lack of Moore that has caused the change. I think it is the presence of JP and MP.
Surely you can see the flaw in that reasoning. JP and MP were present before.
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He may be saying that they took it over moreso than before.
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Presumably. But they were able to do that due to the absence of KM.
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No, I meant that I don't think it is a lack of Moore that has caused the change. I think it is the presence of JP and MP.
Surely you can see the flaw in that reasoning. JP and MP were present before.
That's not a flaw. They used to be two of the five. Now they are TWO of the five.
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Not again...
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Not again...
Well, this thread is about a song from Images and Words which you don't like . . . perhaps you'd be more comfortable in a Systematic Chaos thread? Just sayin' . . .
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The thread title is redundant. Just saying.
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Not again...
Well, this thread is about a song from Images and Words which you don't like . . . perhaps you'd be more comfortable in a Systematic Chaos thread? Just sayin' . . .
I meant the "MP and JP have taken over the band" conspiracy.
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Not again...
Well, this thread is about a song from Images and Words which you don't like . . . perhaps you'd be more comfortable in a Systematic Chaos thread? Just sayin' . . .
I meant the "MP and JP have taken over the band" conspiracy.
:omg: They have?? :dangerwillrobinson:
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Not again...
Welcome to my world.
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So all that being said, I say merely to illustrate an example of another "old-timer" who doesn't think Metropolis is better just because it's old. As I said earlier, it just feels better constructed and feels like it fits the mood, tone, and music of the song better than the ES instrumental.
This, plus I don't know any "old-timers" who think any of the old stuff is better just because it's old. That's just a silly thing to say about anyone here, and frankly I'm getting tired of it.
Another "old timer" here who completely agrees. :tup
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Not again...
Well, this thread is about a song from Images and Words which you don't like . . . perhaps you'd be more comfortable in a Systematic Chaos thread? Just sayin' . . .
I meant the "MP and JP have taken over the band" conspiracy.
:omg: They have?? :dangerwillrobinson:
Yes, JLB is french-canadian and Myung is Korean (south I assume) so they're probably used to be taken over.
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I'm sorry, I've seen some comments regarding this...but has anyone here actualy said something is good because it is old? I don't understand.
Who said that?
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I'm sorry, I've seen some comments regarding this...but has anyone here actualy said something is good because it is old? I don't understand.
Who said that?
John Petrucci did. The finest wines improve with age. He can't take it back now.
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Endless Sacrifice is meh and the 2nd worst song on Train of Thought (And it only beats Vacant because really, Vacant is a prelude to Stream of Consciousness, which owns the crap out of Endless Sacrifice). I don't hate it, but the instrumental section just isn't very interesting, I get bored listening to it and want to skip to one of the better songs on the album.
I really enjoy the Metropolis instrumental, but I honestly prefer James vocal highlights in it over anything else.
As for old vs. new DT, I just think its a result of DT being comfortable with what they are doing, instead of being hungry, but Orbert covered that nicely.
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2nd worst song (...) it only beats Vacant
Vacant is a prelude to Stream of Consciousness
AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH
Other than that, I agree with most of the post.
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Its still a separate song, it just leads into SoC.
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But well, a) it's actually better than SoC, b) it's the second best on the album. I don't get how everyone complains about soulless wankery on recent DT albums yet the songs that are actually the most atmospheric are the most hated.
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It has more to do with song length. Shorter DT songs from all eras are not thought as well of as their longer counterparts.
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I am definitely with anyone who says "Vacant" is one of the best songs off ToT. In fact, to me, the last three songs are far and away the best ones on it.
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I am definitely with anyone who says "Vacant" is one of the best songs off ToT. In fact, to me, the last three songs are far and away the best ones on it.
Vacant doesn't do too much for me, honestly. However, the song that leads into it is absolutely amazing.
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I am definitely with anyone who says "Vacant" is one of the best songs off ToT. In fact, to me, the last three songs are far and away the best ones on it.
Vacant is amazing. It may just be the best song on TOT.
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Endless Sacrifice is meh and the 2nd worst song on Train of Thought (And it only beats Vacant because really, Vacant is a prelude to Stream of Consciousness
I hate you so much,
>:( >:( >:(
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ES is awesome...and so is Vacant! :O DT:s best "really short song" :D the Jordan rudess piano version gives me chills everytime I listen to it
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I am definitely with anyone who says "Vacant" is one of the best songs off ToT. In fact, to me, the last three songs are far and away the best ones on it.
I never think of Vacant as a stand-alone song. It's kinda like Wait For Sleep. It's a prelude to an epic, in its case, Stream of Consciousness.
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Pretty much yeah, Both vacant and STream of conciousness gets better if u listen to'em together
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Vacant is good, but to me, it's a transition song that sets up the last leg of the album for an epic ending.
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I only think of Vacant as a standalone song and I don't see how it is anything else. Stream of Consciousness is entirely separate, even if they somehow flow into each other.
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Endless Sacrifice is meh and the 2nd worst song on Train of Thought (And it only beats Vacant because really, Vacant is a prelude to Stream of Consciousness
I hate you so much,
>:( >:( >:(
:neverusethis:
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I only think of Vacant as a standalone song and I don't see how it is anything else. Stream of Consciousness is entirely separate, even if they somehow flow into each other.
I just find it kinda short.
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I only think of Vacant as a standalone song and I don't see how it is anything else. Stream of Consciousness is entirely separate, even if they somehow flow into each other.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I also see Wait For Sleep and Learning to Live as being entirely separate, and have no qualms with listening to either individually.
Side-note: Here is my ranking of the four (as if anyone cares):
1. LTL
2. V
3. WFS
4. SOC
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2nd worst song (...) it only beats Vacant
Vacant is a prelude to Stream of Consciousness
AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH
:lol I've never agreed with you more than in this post. Vacant is excellent.
In fact, to me, the last three songs are far and away the best ones on it.
I'd throw HTF in there as well, but yeah the album definitely gets better in the second half.
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Its good, but I just don't think enough happens in Vacant to justify it above the other songs on ToT. Well, maybe above ES but that's about it for me. Opinions though, etc.
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I only think of Vacant as a standalone song and I don't see how it is anything else. Stream of Consciousness is entirely separate, even if they somehow flow into each other.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I also see Wait For Sleep and Learning to Live as being entirely separate, and have no qualms with listening to either individually.
Side-note: Here is my ranking of the four (as if anyone cares):
1. LTL
2. V
3. WFS
4. SOC
Pretty much agreeable, except mine would have V and WFS switched.
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I would have Wait for Sleep #2, and Stream of Consciousness #3. But I have a huge fucking hard-on for that song, even if Train of Thought is one of their weaker albums.
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I only think of Vacant as a standalone song and I don't see how it is anything else. Stream of Consciousness is entirely separate, even if they somehow flow into each other.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I also see Wait For Sleep and Learning to Live as being entirely separate, and have no qualms with listening to either individually.
Side-note: Here is my ranking of the four (as if anyone cares):
1. LTL
2. V
3. WFS
4. SOC
Wow, people started agreeing with me :|
Yes, kind of, but Wait For Sleep is slightly different because LTL is the album closer. But yes, I also see it as a separate song. And I think I agree with the ranking.
2nd worst song (...) it only beats Vacant
Vacant is a prelude to Stream of Consciousness
AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH
:lol I've never agreed with you more than in this post. Vacant is excellent.
In fact, to me, the last three songs are far and away the best ones on it.
I'd throw HTF in there as well, but yeah the album definitely gets better in the second half.
:biggrin: Though can't agree on the second half. Vacant and In The Name of God is top notch DT material, but I don't find Stream of Consciousness that great anymore. On the other hand, This Dying Soul is great even if it's the weakest of the suite.
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This Dying Soul is great even if it's the weakest of the suite.
I'm gonna blow your mind and agree with this as well.
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Ok... someone wake me up, it's been too long.
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Ok... someone wake me up, it's too long.
Not the first time I've heard that.
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I like all 4 of those songs considerably, but I rank them as follows:
LTL (ranked #5 in the entire pre-BCSL DT catalog)
SOC (18)
WFS (23)
V (25)
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This Dying Soul is great even if it's the weakest of the suite.
I'm gonna blow your mind and agree with this as well.
Half-agree. The Shattered Fortress is the weakest, followed by Repentance, The Root of all Evil, then This Dying Soul and finally The Glass Prison.
But TDS is really great.
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Ok... someone wake me up, it's too long.
Not the first time I've heard that.
DTF: the only place where you have to be careful about every single word you write. :P
Learning to Live would be somewhere in my top 15, Vacant and Wait For Sleep a little bit behind. Stream of Consciousness... maybe top 50.
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Ok... someone wake me up, it's too long.
Not the first time I've heard that.
DTF: the only place where you have to be careful about every single word you write. :P
:lol
Learning to Live would be somewhere in my top 15, Vacant and Wait For Sleep a little bit behind. Stream of Consciousness... maybe top 50.
Sounds about right.
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I suppose I'm the only one that would have SoC in their top 15? :|
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I suppose I'm the only one that would have SoC in their top 15? :|
Maybe not. A lot of people like it. Hell, I like it, I just don't think it's that good.
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I suppose I'm the only one that would have SoC in their top 15? :|
It would be close for me, it's the first Dream Theater piece I ever fell in love with... it's freakin' awesome almost all the way through, then it goes a bit boring, but then it redeems itself. The screwing around with how the emphasis on the main rhythm is treated around minutes 8 and 9 reallllly fucking does it for me! :heart :heart :heart Never bothered to even try do a list of my favourite DT songs though, way too difficult.
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I suppose I'm the only one that would have SoC in their top 15? :|
I used to love it, but I lost interest in it over time for some reason.
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maybe some instrumental part of late DT songs as you said are random, abtrusive, showy and not fit in the theme well, but who cares, at least i don't care, i just like that progessive sensation and improvised playing. this already become a label of DT.