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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Samsara on March 08, 2010, 02:15:08 PM
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Simple question. Do you want MORE or LESS "growl-style" lead vocal sections by Mike Portnoy on future Dream Theater releases?
No, there isn't an option for "about the same," and there is a reason for that. If you had to choose, would you want more or less of it by MP?
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Let's see whether we can get a single "yes" in this poll.
rumborak
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I don't care, to be honest. If it fits the song, then it's fine with me
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I voted less, but that's because I prefer the songs where it's not needed as much and miss JLB's higher singing :)
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Since they don't have any growl-style vocals (other than the ANTR unreleased clip MP posted a while back), that makes the question hard to answer. :P
But assuming you are referring to the harsh vocals on ANTR...that's still a tough one for me to answer. I kind of feel like we have enough. But by the same token, when they're done extremely well as they have been in the past (call and response on TGP, reverse call and response in TSF, tradeoff in Contant Motion, heavy section in ANTR), they really compliment James well and add a lot to the songs. Still, I guess (sorry if this is stream of consciousness...I'm sort of working through this and forming my answer as I type) since BCSL has harsh MP vocals on three of the six songs (if you count some of the backing stuff on AROP), I suppose "more" really would seem unnecessary, which only leaves me with the "less" option, so...yeah, that.
But interesting to note that the question in the poll is really skewed to really only get "less" votes. I wouldn't think very many people, even those of us that LOVE MP's vocals, are likely to say they want "more" than 3 songs per album's worth.
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The poll is to make a point, bosk1. The point is (and I knew this) that if given the choice for DT to pursue as you call "harsh" vocals by Mike Portnoy, fans wouldn't want that.
If any and all growl vocals were taken out of DT music, barely anyone would complain. ;)
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Oh, I know. I get where you are going. But it's still tough to really give the answer I feel is best, so I'm definitely going to voice why it's a tough question to answer. The purpose of the explanation wasn't to bust your chops. It just so happened that that was a secondary benefit. :lol
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Oh, I know. I get where you are going. But it's still tough to really give the answer I feel is best, so I'm definitely going to voice why it's a tough question to answer. The purpose of the explanation wasn't to bust your chops. It just so happened that that was a secondary benefit. :lol
:lol
Jerk. :P
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I don't care, to be honest. If it fits the song, then it's fine with me
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The poll is to make a point, bosk1. The point is (and I knew this) that if given the choice for DT to pursue as you call "harsh" vocals by Mike Portnoy, fans wouldn't want that.
If any and all growl vocals were taken out of DT music, barely anyone would complain. ;)
Prove a point that a skewed poll makes me look stupid?
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I don't care, to be honest. If it fits the song, then it's fine with me
-J
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I don't know. It's a tough choice, really.
I mean, argument for yes, is that logically that'd mean we'd get more James LaBrie. And there's no such thing as too much James LaBrie; what a talented man. Pleasure to listen to.
On the other hand though, MP's gruff vocals do add a fair bit to DT's sound, and I do love backing vocals. Counterpoint, harmonies, I can't get enough of backing vocals done well. And I can't imagine they'd be gratuitous. There's a good history of bands with very strong backing vocalists - Queen immediately come to mind, or Nightwish more recently and less influentially - and it'd open up a lot of cool paths. They've barely scratched the surface of the potential. Imagine if they wrote more songs like Don't Look Past Me! That'd be wonderful.
DT are very talented, and I'd probably lap it up either way. I think employing less MP vocals would be playing it safe. More MP would be more of a stab in the dark.
Yeah, I'm gonna say more BVs. Progressing rather than regressing. 'citing.
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The poll is to make a point, bosk1. The point is (and I knew this) that if given the choice for DT to pursue as you call "harsh" vocals by Mike Portnoy, fans wouldn't want that.
If any and all growl vocals were taken out of DT music, barely anyone would complain. ;)
Prove a point that a skewed poll makes me look stupid?
That wasn't the intent at all. And its not skewed, it just doesn't allow for fence sitters (like all the people saying "I don't care" in this thread, who won't vote). It makes people pick, which proves a point.
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I don't mind them, but less. James is the singer. I like listening to him sing. I don't mind listening to Mike, and I like his singing, but if I have to choose between James singing and Mike singing, I'll always pick James. Even on the heavy parts.
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...it just doesn't allow for fence sitters (like all the people saying "I don't care" in this thread, who won't vote). It makes people pick, which proves a point.
Point taken. But seriously, it also doesn't allow for the very legitimate, "I honestly feel that what they've been doing feels roughly 'just right,' so neither 'less' nor 'more' would be entirely accurate." I mean, I've fine picking between "the lesser of two evils" (I better be, since I vote in the general election every four years), but I really feel that's what this poll is forcing me to pick as opposed to picking what I feel to be the most accurate description of my position on MP's vocals.
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I vote dump JLB and get Mike doing all the vocals and then gradually turn DT into an Opeth tribute band
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Point taken. But seriously, it also doesn't allow for the very legitimate, "I honestly feel that what they've been doing feels roughly 'just right,' so neither 'less' nor 'more' would be entirely accurate."
Problem with that is that regardless of how people might actually feel, the fence sitters will pick that. Sorry bosk, while I absolutely see what you are saying, I think there wouldn't be many "legitimate" votes that everything is "just right." That's why the poll was done the way it was. Like I said, I see what you are saying, but my response would be, adding that third option would skew the honesty even further...
I mean, I've fine picking between "the lesser of two evils" (I better be, since I vote in the general election every four years), but I really feel that's what this poll is forcing me to pick as opposed to picking what I feel to be the most accurate description of my position on MP's vocals.
I hear ya, but the thing is, YOU would be honest. You truly would be. I just don't have faith that many people on here would honestly answer it. They'd pick "just right" to not make a stand. But 16-2 as of this writing tells the tale, even if it is a little skewed.
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This thread will end in
hot sex tears.
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There's no option for "whatever suits the music". :P
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I agree with Bosk's initial post. I really like MP's rough vocals in TSF, TGP, Constant Motion, etc. ANTR is a bit weird with Mike singing all alone, but I can dig it. As long as James remains their main vocalist on *all* songs....I suppose I'm happy with the amount that Mike does as is.
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I really enjoyed it when he has the duets with Labrie in the AA saga, but when he sings whole sections of the songs, it just doesn´t feel too right (IMO)... :P
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I think they should re-release ANTR with full blown death metal growls.
While they're at it, release the real Raw Dog with the God of War samples at the end.
And the rest of the discography - redone to include some black metal screams, pig squeals, and some of those weird gurgles.
Ok maybe not the last part. They should do whatever they feel fits the music.
But I love the good occasional growls.
:2metal:
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Samsara, I get your point totally.
I want less.
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Sorry Samsara, but I don't get the point of this poll.
To me, the 'growled' vocals are just like another instrumental aspect of Dream Theater music. So to that end, asking if I'd like more/less 'growly' vocals is akin to asking me if I'd like more/less saxophone... or continuum... or wah-wah pedal. All of these are used to add texture or emphasis to certain parts. Would I like to see all of these musical effects being used on future DT albums? Absolutely I would, why not. Would I like to see growls or sax or continuum on every single album or song? Not necessarily.
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Less. I'm one of those people that prefers the "beautiful" DT songs as opposed to the harsher balls-and-chunk DT that MP has been creating. The growl voice epitomizes the balls-and-chunk side that I dislike, IMO.
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I like that you're being provacative Samsara, but I can't bite, because I think the poll is missing the point.
There's no option for "whatever suits the music". :P
It sounds like a contrived overly-intellectualized cop-out explanation, but I think it's absolutely correct. The Glass Prison would take a significant hit quality-wise if the MP vocals were removed. Same with A Rite of Passage. On the other hand, I really don't think they work in The Count of Tuscany. I don't like the approach he went with in A Nightmare to Remember (should have went full on with the death voice IMO). Constant Motion is very iffy vocally, but that's because it's written to suit James Hetfield than James LaBrie or Mike Portnoy.
Writing a song is like constructing a building. Different vocal choices improve or detract from the aesthetic and structural qualities in different ways. It's important to make the right choice for that situation.
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I really don't think they work in The Count of Tuscany.
Oh, wow. I completley forgot about that. (although that is definitely a backing vocal, and the poll gets at lead vocals--same with AROP) Hmm...I hadn't really thought about it, but while I don't dislike them there, I don't think they are necessary either, and the song would probably be at least as good if they were all a regular harmony instead of Mike doing the more aggressive vocals.
I fully agree with you on TGP (and same with the parallel, but reverse call and response on TSF).
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I like that you're being provacative Samsara, but I can't bite, because I think the poll is missing the point.
There's no option for "whatever suits the music". :P
It sounds like a contrived overly-intellectualized cop-out explanation, but I think it's absolutely correct. The Glass Prison would take a significant hit quality-wise if the MP vocals were removed. Same with A Rite of Passage. On the other hand, I really don't think they work in The Count of Tuscany. I don't like the approach he went with in A Nightmare to Remember (should have went full on with the death voice IMO). Constant Motion is very iffy vocally, but that's because it's written to suit James Hetfield than James LaBrie or Mike Portnoy.
Writing a song is like constructing a building. Different vocal choices improve or detract from the aesthetic and structural qualities in different ways. It's important to make the right choice for that situation.
I can entirely understand liking the vox on TGP, but the vocals on AROP are even more grating to me than the bebot solo.
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More I guess, but not too much.
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Yes - because that would mean more "heavier" DT, which I love.
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Most people know my stance on cookie monster vocals, so I won't say anything more. However, what I do find absolutely hilarious is that MP's vocals on TGP are being lumped in with the pseudo-cookie vocals in ANtR, TDEN, etc. MP's vocals in TGP are clean, just like in SDVu! :P
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I think MP and JP should be utilized more to create nice harmonies like they did so well in Scenes.
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I think MP and JP should be utilized more to create nice harmonies like they did so well in Scenes.
My Train Of Thought (Nugget) :
Yeah, I agree. ---> Hey, wouldn't it be cool is JMX joined in on the harmonies? ---> But he's The Silent Man... ---> Then how crazy would it be for him to sing?! :dangerwillrobinson:
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He's probably a Castrato.
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Less.
Mostly because I don't think that MP really has that great of a singing voice or he doesn't utilize it all that well, at least not lately.
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Backing vocals are fine, one or few words as a back and forth section. As they have been doing minus ANTR, which was terrible. MP is not good at growling (very few bands have a vocalist that are), so I would say less is or the same amount (minus ANTR).
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I'm not bothered by his vocals, but if I have to choose something, I choose less. I'd like James to start overdubbing the vocal melodies again, instead of having Mike and John yelling in the background...
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I wouldn't say they yell in the background. I prefer that JP and MP do the background vocal A) they are not bad at all B) it doesn't sound like there is a void in the vocals from lack of multiple JLB.
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Less.
Mostly because I don't think that MP really has that great of a singing voice or he doesn't utilize it all that well, at least not lately.
I think he's done some of his best vocal work of his career as of late. The Queen medley especially.
Whatever suits the music, do it. If you don't like a growl, don't listen to the freakin thing.
Freakin.
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However, what I do find absolutely hilarious is that MP's vocals on TGP are being lumped in with the pseudo-cookie vocals in ANtR, TDEN, etc. MP's vocals in TGP are clean, just like in SDVu! :P
Yeah, the hell?
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Problem with that is that regardless of how people might actually feel, the fence sitters will pick that. Sorry bosk, while I absolutely see what you are saying, I think there wouldn't be many "legitimate" votes that everything is "just right." That's why the poll was done the way it was. Like I said, I see what you are saying, but my response would be, adding that third option would skew the honesty even further...
I disagree with this. I don't think being comfortable with the amount of vocals represents sitting on the fence. The reason most people are here is because they like Dream Theater. Not entirely surprising that they're happy with the amount of backing vocals. The reason that lots of people would say that the vocals are just right is because they think the vocals are used correctly. Seems strange to gear a poll in a way that presumes some kind of dissent. I feel that MP's vocals are used correctly as a stylistic choice.
But hey! I've already played ball. Still interesting.
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Unfortunately it is all a moot point anyway, as MP is desperate to win over today's teenagers who haven't a clue as to what good singing is. So the harsh vocals will continue to be more and more prominent. "sigh"
I think I'll put Images and Words on now . . . :'(
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Harsh, cookie monster, growl style vocals or whatever you wanna call em, don't work unless they're done right. They have to fit the song and the lyrics. A good example of it not working is ANTR. So, I would tend to say "less" is more at this point.
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I don't know. It's a tough choice, really.
I mean, argument for yes, is that logically that'd mean we'd get more James LaBrie. And there's no such thing as too much James LaBrie; what a talented man. Pleasure to listen to.
On the other hand though, MP's gruff vocals do add a fair bit to DT's sound, and I do love backing vocals. Counterpoint, harmonies, I can't get enough of backing vocals done well. And I can't imagine they'd be gratuitous. There's a good history of bands with very strong backing vocalists - Queen immediately come to mind, or Nightwish more recently and less influentially - and it'd open up a lot of cool paths. They've barely scratched the surface of the potential. Imagine if they wrote more songs like Don't Look Past Me! That'd be wonderful.
DT are very talented, and I'd probably lap it up either way. I think employing less MP vocals would be playing it safe. More MP would be more of a stab in the dark.
Yeah, I'm gonna say more BVs. Progressing rather than regressing. 'citing.
That.
I like how they are to this day trying new things out. Would you really want 10 Images & Words?
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Harsh, cookie monster, growl style vocals or whatever you wanna call em, don't work unless they're done right. They have to fit the song and the lyrics. A good example of it not working is ANTR. So, I would tend to say "less" is more at this point.
I'd like to agree with this.
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I like how they are to this day trying new things out. Would you really want 10 Images & Words?
Because people who do not like growl-style vocals want DT to keep doing the same album over and over?
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If it fits the song, then it's fine with me
They never fit the song. If they happen to fit the song, there is a flaw in the songwriting.
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For me the MP's 'Harsh' vocals on TGP and ANTR are the highlights of the song for me, they fit the heavy mood especially on TGP mixing with jame's ligher vocals, then when it bursts into that awesome riff with the chanting. But yer it is probaly really dependant on whether it fit's the song. But i voted yes as i would love more songs like TGP and ANTR
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If it fits the song, then it's fine with me
They never fit the song. If they happen to fit the song, there is a flaw in the songwriting.
...and that is an interesting point, as well.
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I'm fine with them as long as MP considered backing out of a certain songwriting decision if they don't end up working. That seems to me the crux of the problem, that in these "one-week album-writing sessions" there is no room for backing out of something that doesn't work. Essentially every musical brainfart gets committed to tape, including the dubious decision to sing harsh vocals over "glad" lyrics.
Had they left the harsh vocals for lyrical description of the car impact, it could have been really powerful and very fitting. As it is, we're listening to a scaled-down cookie monster vocals because it just couldn't be made to work over the lyrics of "by the grace of God, everyone survived."
rumborak
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here's the thing. I said this in a separate thread ToX created as well in the Gen. Music section.
One of the distinct characteristics of DT is the operatic vocal style of James LaBrie. It is a strength of the band. In most bands, from what I have observed over the years, bands write the music to the style and strength of their singers. DREAM THEATER USED TO DO THAT. THEY DO NOT ALWAYS DO THAT NOW.
That, IMO, is a big, big problem.
That growl section...if MP heard "death metal vocals" on it, he should have worked with John to change the musical section to FIT JAMES' VOICE. Hello?! Your singer is an operatic style vocalist. WRITE MUSIC THAT FITS THAT VOICE!
If a band wants to throw a vocal sample or something in there for laughs or for a difference, fine. But if your lead singer is James LaBrie, you shouldn't be having lead vocal lines that are not of a style he is meant for or comfortable singing.
DT doesn't do it all the time, and MP has said in the past they always write with James in mind. But if that's so, then WHY DIDN'T THEY RE-WRITE THAT SECTION? No growling vocals were necessary as a LEAD line. Your lead singer is now a growl-type vocalist. Capitalize on his strengths, and if music needs to be re-written to do that, then do it, or remove the section.
Dream Theater didn't make its name on Mike Portnoy's vocals. They did it on their musicianship and the lead vocal of Kevin James LaBrie. By going away from the latter element and letting MP do growling LEAD vocals on their music, you shy away from an element that made Dream Theater distinct in the first place.
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I disagree entirely with you there I'm afraid Sam, I don't think a band has to write every single line with the lead singer in mind. And I also don't think that operatic style singing is an integral part of DT's sound, I've been a fan since SDOIT (when JLB was still doing that style of singing for the majority) and I've just never seen them that way.
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I disagree entirely with you there I'm afraid Sam, I don't think a band has to write every single line with the lead singer in mind. And I also don't think that operatic style singing is an integral part of DT's sound, I've been a fan since SDOIT (when JLB was still doing that style of singing for the majority) and I've just never seen them that way.
No prob, I don't expect people to agree, but most bands write around their singer's strengths. DT does here and there, but has drifted from that, particularly on the ANtR example (and Portnoy described it himself, saying he heard a death metal growl on the section). My question to him was - why not rewrite it so James could sing it, or delete it then?
Backup vox are one thing. But lead to me should be handled by the lead singer, unless you have a long history of sharing lead vocals (Alice in Chains, Sevendust, The Beatles, etc.). Mike Portnoy was wrong when he said anyone could sing. No, that's not true. people can attempt to sing, and most suck. Portnoy (no offense MP) should stick to background harmonies live (not in the studio, and certainly never lead vocals) in this fan's opinion.
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I disagree too. There is no point in saying DT should do this or that. If they want to incorporate a harsher edge and a different type of agressiveness to their music, that´s fine, and they will naturally write something that doesn´t quite fit JLB´s style. It will work well sometimes, but on ocassion the result will be subpar. And at the end, it will only represent a small amount of the vocals anyway. So the problem is that some listeners won´t like it, not that they don´t write 100% of their lines to fit JLB´s style, which would definitely prevent them from exploring new territory.
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So the problem is that some listeners won´t like it, not that they don´t write 100% of their lines to fit JLB´s style, which would definitely prevent them from exploring new territory.
Disagree. They can explore new territory fitting into James operatic style. VERY easily. Again, I know this isn't a popular opinion, but this is why DT has been dropping like a rock for me in recent years. They write as musicians, instead of writing AS A BAND. Whose fault that is, or why that is, I don't know. But when you have a singer such as James LaBrie in the band, he should be involved with all aspects of the creation of the music. Not merely singing lines.
Whether that is JLB's fault for not pushing it enough, or MP's fault for not including James, I don't know.
But DT can ABSOLUTELY explore new territory and write to the strengths of their lead singer at the same time. Thousands of bands do it on a daily basis.
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I can't stress how much I agree with Sam's last post. Though, so I'm not taken as merely bashing, I've gotta preface this post by saying the following:
I don't think Mike's vocals or DT's songwriting as of late have been huge problems, and I've enjoyed two of the band's last three albums just as much as I enjoy Images and Words and Scenes from A Memory.
While reading "Lifting Shadows," I got the impression that James LaBrie's voice is viewed by the band as something that needs to be "reigned in." I think Mike even says in one of the interviews that he thinks it was probably due to James' voice that the band never got any big mainstream success. As a result, ever since SDOIT, James vocals seem so "guided" by the "producers" that the final product is, though "good," never really what it could have been.
It seems to me that when James doesn't get completely left out of writing process, he's given strict instructions on exactly what to sing by Mike Portnoy, who apparently can't write to James' strengths and feels he needs to sing the songs himself; or John Petrucci, who quite frankly can't carry a note in a bucket.
James LaBrie is the vocal expertise of the band, and the albums where he contributed more to the writing are without a doubt the best albums the band has put out. That Labrie's voice "just doesn't sound good over heavy music" makes absolutely no sense. We're talking about the singer who sang over Caught in a Web, The Mirror, Lie, Home, and most of the songs on Train of Thought. Why not let the "specialist" do his job?
As I read this thread, I'm more and more convinced that, regardless of what the band says to justify these growly moments, LaBrie's voice isn't the problem. Lazy songwriting isn't the problem, either. As we know, A Nightmare to Remember was originally written with only James in mind and Mike added his part later (we still haven't heard how it sounded with only James on vocals, so we can't tell whether the final product would have been better or not). The problem is basically "producer" Mike Portnoy's ideas -- not James Labrie's singing-- going unchecked. And yes, I know Portnoy listens to the fans, that his style of "managing" the band is extremely fan driven, that his clean background vocals are great, and that we fans are lucky to have someone as dedicated as him "keeping the Dream alive."
But Portnoy has got to have realized by now, in his heart of hearts, that most fans are really turned off by his growly vocals. Most of the older fans either don't like 'em or could do without 'em, and most of the newer generation of kids who listen to bands like Between the Buried and Me, Opeth, A7X and Mastodon recognize Mike's growls for exactly what they are-- forced, "tough metal guy" vocals that make Dream Theater sound like they're trying to hard.
C'mon, DT. Stop trying so hard to fit in with Between the Buried and Me and Opeth, and take your proper seat next to Yes, Rush, and Iron Maiden. Though you've never shared their mainstream success, musicians respect you just as much and you're already much bigger than these bands you're trying to imitate now will ever be. We know you will and can write great music without forcing it. You'll always be that awesome band made for & by fans of great music. Is it really worth it to try and be something else?
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I think the problem regarding JLB's vocals in more recent years is that they seem to not want to write vocal parts that are hard to pull off live, ala "Voices" or "Take the Time," regardless of whether or not JLB can do them in the studio. I think that is a mistake. Who cares if he can't do it as well live? It is like they are dumbing down his vocal parts a bit, that way he can do everything live just as it is on the studio version (of the newer songs).
And to that end, I definitely wish they would go back to having JLB do ALL of the vocals in the studio. If they have to overdub his voice for a harmony, big deal. They did it on "Take the Time" and look how awesome that song turned out. Can you imagine if that were a new song now? They probably would have had Petrucci and Portnoy do the "take the time" harmony on the studio version. Ugh.
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I agree Samsara. Taking out the specifics of your argument of James and his vocal style within DT, if you as a band member are trying to write vocal lines that aren't best suited to your singer, you need to think about the types of vocal lines you are writing.
Regarding DT, I think the problem arises when a band member 'hears' a certain type of style, whether it be vocal, or instrumentational (word?) within a particular section of a song, and guides the song/section in that direction.
I've always had the same problem with Lines in the Sand. Supposedly JP wanted that Kings X dude's type of vocals for the song, so invited him in to do backing vocals. Why is he basing the vocal structure of that song around the style of a singer from a different band?
Good post/thread idea by ToX in the other section, too.
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Funny thing is, I always thought James sounded best when he's not singing for DT.
rumborak
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So the problem is that some listeners won´t like it, not that they don´t write 100% of their lines to fit JLB´s style, which would definitely prevent them from exploring new territory.
Disagree. They can explore new territory fitting into James operatic style. VERY easily. Again, I know this isn't a popular opinion, but this is why DT has been dropping like a rock for me in recent years. They write as musicians, instead of writing AS A BAND. Whose fault that is, or why that is, I don't know. But when you have a singer such as James LaBrie in the band, he should be involved with all aspects of the creation of the music. Not merely singing lines.
Whether that is JLB's fault for not pushing it enough, or MP's fault for not including James, I don't know.
But DT can ABSOLUTELY explore new territory and write to the strengths of their lead singer at the same time. Thousands of bands do it on a daily basis.
Ok they can, but they don´t HAVE TO. That was my point in the first part of my post, if they want to move away from JLB´s strenghts, that´s fine, some people will like it, others don´t. But it´s DT´s decision on how they want to shape their music and what is the new territory they want to explore.
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So the problem is that some listeners won´t like it, not that they don´t write 100% of their lines to fit JLB´s style, which would definitely prevent them from exploring new territory.
Disagree. They can explore new territory fitting into James operatic style. VERY easily. Again, I know this isn't a popular opinion, but this is why DT has been dropping like a rock for me in recent years. They write as musicians, instead of writing AS A BAND. Whose fault that is, or why that is, I don't know. But when you have a singer such as James LaBrie in the band, he should be involved with all aspects of the creation of the music. Not merely singing lines.
Whether that is JLB's fault for not pushing it enough, or MP's fault for not including James, I don't know.
But DT can ABSOLUTELY explore new territory and write to the strengths of their lead singer at the same time. Thousands of bands do it on a daily basis.
Ok they can, but they don´t HAVE TO. That was my point in the first part of my post, if they want to move away from JLB´s strenghts, that´s fine, some people will like it, others don´t. But it´s DT´s decision on how they want to shape their music and what is the new territory they want to explore.
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Note bolded emphasis. Isn't James LaBrie an essential part of what is "Dream Theater?" James, particularly being the singer and frontman is an integral part of it all. And if you saw in the BCSL stuff, James did not take part, and James was not happy about it. Isn't taking your singer's strengths and abilities in a band with vocals a very big element of that?
Why would any sane band write something that their singer couldn't or wouldn't want sing?
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Growl-type vocals is not part of the quintessential DT sound. JLB is the vocalist, and Samsara is right that the vocals should be tailored to him. If MP is growl hungry, then that's what side projects are for, in my opinion. Let me him create a side-project band where he is the lead singer or has a cookie monster singer.
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I like how they are to this day trying new things out. Would you really want 10 Images & Words?
Because people who do not like growl-style vocals want DT to keep doing the same album over and over?
Well where else could a prog metal band go?
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I like that you're being provacative Samsara, but I can't bite, because I think the poll is missing the point.
There's no option for "whatever suits the music". :P
It sounds like a contrived overly-intellectualized cop-out explanation, but I think it's absolutely correct. The Glass Prison would take a significant hit quality-wise if the MP vocals were removed. Same with A Rite of Passage. On the other hand, I really don't think they work in The Count of Tuscany. I don't like the approach he went with in A Nightmare to Remember (should have went full on with the death voice IMO). Constant Motion is very iffy vocally, but that's because it's written to suit James Hetfield than James LaBrie or Mike Portnoy.
Writing a song is like constructing a building. Different vocal choices improve or detract from the aesthetic and structural qualities in different ways. It's important to make the right choice for that situation.
I can entirely understand liking the vox on TGP, but the vocals on AROP are even more grating to me than the bebot solo.
lol?
Okay it's subjective but really what is wrong with the AROP MP vocals??? They are amazing and for me one of signature (special) things for that song together with the main riff, chorus and bebot solo
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I do agree with the idea that JLB should me more of a focus when writing the songs. I don't dislike the harsh vocals at all but I find it hard to believe that an album with JLB doing all the vocals wouldn't be equally as good and seeing as he is frequently off stage digging holes I don't see why he shouldn't always be the singer when vocals come into the song.
Tbh if I was James I'd probably be quite fed up with DT, I don't think he's used effectively enough. He should always (dunno if this is case or not) be consulted on vocal lines and if he thinks the music could be altered to better fit his vocals he should say so. For me James is just as important a member of the band as Mike, JM and JP and I think in the studio he should be as such.
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Growl-type vocals is not part of the quintessential DT sound. JLB is the vocalist, and Samsara is right that the vocals should be tailored to him. If MP is growl hungry, then that's what side projects are for, in my opinion. Let me him create a side-project band where he is the lead singer or has a cookie monster singer.
Well said. It's very much like when MP "directed" SFAM DVD (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/6.aspx) - I honestly felt I was watching a high school video project. It didn't resonate anything of DT and definitely took away from the great story-telling of the piece/saga.
And yes, MP likes to watch film and edit as hobbies. I believe he mentions that on the SFAM DVD bonus features.
Point being, there's no need for a DT stamp on MPs side projects or hobbies.
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P.C., you raise some interesting points. But I think you are mistaken about a number of your facts.
I think Mike even says in one of the interviews that he thinks it was probably due to James' voice that the band never got any big mainstream success.
I'm not 100% sure, but I don't recall seeing that anywhere. Are you positive Mike said that?
James LaBrie is the vocal expertise of the band, and the albums where he contributed more to the writing are without a doubt the best albums the band has put out. That Labrie's voice "just doesn't sound good over heavy music" makes absolutely no sense. We're talking about the singer who sang over Caught in a Web, The Mirror, Lie, Home, and most of the songs on Train of Thought. Why not let the "specialist" do his job?
Wait, what? James did NOT contribute to the writing process on any of those albums. As Lifting Shadows points out, James had not been involved in the writing process at all, and the band finally became frustrated with that approach at the time of Six Degrees that they basically gave James an ultimatum and told him they wanted him to be involved. ...Because he wasn't involved on prior albums.
But Portnoy has got to have realized by now, in his heart of hearts, that most fans are really turned off by his growly vocals.
I don't think that is the case at all. Most of the fans I've heard way in on the issue do like what Mike did. So, no, I don't think "most" fans are turned off, so in turn, I don't think he would have any such realization.
And if you saw in the BCSL stuff, James did not take part, and James was not happy about it.
??? What? What gave you the idea he wasn't happy about it?
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I don't think he's used effectively enough. He should always (dunno if this is case or not) be consulted on vocal lines and if he thinks the music could be altered to better fit his vocals he should say so.
Is there any indication that this is the case? I mean, his vocals on BC&SL are the best they've been for years, and even with SC he himself he had more fun recording it than any other DT album.
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Well, although I agree with most of the points Bosk just made, I think poll results here pretty well indicate many fans would like him to tone it down.
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The problem is basically "producer" Mike Portnoy's ideas -- not James Labrie's singing-- going unchecked. And yes, I know Portnoy listens to the fans, that his style of "managing" the band is extremely fan driven, that his clean background vocals are great, and that we fans are lucky to have someone as dedicated as him "keeping the Dream alive."
C'mon, DT. Stop trying so hard to fit in with Between the Buried and Me and Opeth, and take your proper seat next to Yes, Rush, and Iron Maiden. Though you've never shared their mainstream success, musicians respect you just as much and you're already much bigger than these bands you're trying to imitate now will ever be. We know you will and can write great music without forcing it. You'll always be that awesome band made for & by fans of great music. Is it really worth it to try and be something else?
+1
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I think Mike even says in one of the interviews that he thinks it was probably due to James' voice that the band never got any big mainstream success.
I'm not 100% sure, but I don't recall seeing that anywhere. Are you positive Mike said that?
I remember reading that too, might even be in Lifting.... He IIRC said that one of the reasons they were considering canning JLB around SDOIT was because his singing style was so dated.
rumborak
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bosk - I know I've read stuff on here where it was said James was annoyed/disappointed that he was not involved with the creation process behind BCSL.
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I think poll results here pretty well indicate many fans would like him to tone it down.
You mean because 81 out of literally thousands of DT fans voted on a poll that didn't allow for "feels just about right," and 66 of those thousands of fans (including me, who loves the vast majority of the MP vocals) felt "less" was a better option than "more?"
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I think poll results here pretty well indicate many fans would like him to tone it down.
You mean because 81 out of literally thousands of DT fans voted on a poll that didn't allow for "feels just about right," and 66 of those thousands of fans (including me, who loves the vast majority of the MP vocals) felt "less" was a better option than "more?"
Even if half the "less" people voted "just about right," it still proves the point I was making. ;) At least on the scale of hardcores on this board...and I'd bet if the entire casual DT fan fan base voted, there would be WAY more "less" votes.
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If the poll was close, it would be one thing, but it's a simple poll and although we certainly are not a super representative cut of the fanbase I'd say we can be somewhat accurate, and from what I've seen in this thread and in real life is that Mike could do well to tone it down just a bit.
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I think Mike even says in one of the interviews that he thinks it was probably due to James' voice that the band never got any big mainstream success.
I'm not 100% sure, but I don't recall seeing that anywhere. Are you positive Mike said that?
I remember reading that too, might even be in Lifting.... He IIRC said that one of the reasons they were considering canning JLB around SDOIT was because his singing style was so dated.
rumborak
Like I said, I might be mistaken on that one, but I don't recall seeing it in Lifting Shadows or anywhere else.
bosk - I know I've read stuff on here where it was said James was annoyed/disappointed that he was not involved with the creation process behind BCSL.
Do you have a source? Not saying it didn't happen, but I have not seen anything to that effect.
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James pretty much said that it just so happened to work out that he didn't really get involved on Black Clouds and both he and the band decided that was OK.
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I don't think he's used effectively enough. He should always (dunno if this is case or not) be consulted on vocal lines and if he thinks the music could be altered to better fit his vocals he should say so.
Is there any indication that this is the case? I mean, his vocals on BC&SL are the best they've been for years, and even with SC he himself he had more fun recording it than any other DT album.
The fact that on some recent songs (I'm looking at likes of TSF and CM here) James sounds pretty uncomfortable singing the songs, they don't suit his style that well imo.
However he may well have been fully consulted, I'm not saying he wasn't just saying he always should be
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James pretty much said that it just so happened to work out that he didn't really get involved on Black Clouds and both he and the band decided that was OK.
No, he said that that wouldn't happen again, that he'd be involved.
bosk - my source is DTF. I read it here, as I don't read anything DT related anywhere else (other than blabbercrap, but that stuff is posted here anyway).
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Well, although I agree with most of the points Bosk just made, I think poll results here pretty well indicate many fans would like him to tone it down.
No, it doesn't. It indicates that more of them would prefer him to tone it down than to wap it up.
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https://dreamtheaterbook.com/extracts.html
“At this point in the game, and this is me being totally honest, it comes down to me realizing that I can contribute to melodies, and I can contribute lyrics but I’m not going to be busting down a door to do so. I think when you get older, you’re not so driven through pride or ego, and you start to think to yourself what is it that we are trying to accomplish here? And if the end result still comes out sounding great, then so be it. I think with John and Mike, they realize that I could contribute to the melodies and lyrics. In fact there was a communication breakdown because I guess the way it was first talked about it was going to be ‘OK, you guys go for it. Write the melodies, write the lyrics, and you just do it. I’m going to sit back here and I’ll see you when I come down to sing.’ But then John Petrucci contacted me and said to me ‘Are you writing lyrics for this particular song?’ And I was like ‘What? What are you talking about?’ So there was a bit of a communication breakdown there but needless to say it worked out in the end. I mean granted, there is a lot of controversy out there about why didn’t James contribute this or that. Well it’s not that James isn’t willing to but it just comes down to how the process unfolded and what was communicated throughout the band. At the end of the day, if it’s going to be then it will be. I’m fine with that because I’m not a man in his twenties any more saying ‘Wait a minute, you have to have me in there otherwise this is bullshit.’”
Although James takes a pragmatic approach when viewing his place and role within the band, he clearly retains a desire to be involved at a deeper level on future albums as he explains.
“I did have a conversation with John and Mike and said ‘OK, this is how this one unfolded, but with the next album guys? No way’,” he says firmly. “I don’t want to be sitting back and not wanting to contribute the melody and lyrics for the songs. This was how this album unfolded, and that’s cool, but on the next one I don’t want to see this go down. And it wasn’t said in an aggressive manner. It wasn’t a case of, you know, screw you and all that kind of stuff. It was just mentioned so that it is known that ‘Hey you know what guys? I’m passionate about melodies too. I’m passionate about lyrics as well.’ And that, quite simply, has to be considered. Period.”
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here's the thing. I said this in a separate thread ToX created as well in the Gen. Music section.
One of the distinct characteristics of DT is the operatic vocal style of James LaBrie. It is a strength of the band. In most bands, from what I have observed over the years, bands write the music to the style and strength of their singers. DREAM THEATER USED TO DO THAT. THEY DO NOT ALWAYS DO THAT NOW.
That, IMO, is a big, big problem.
Tell that to Queen. They had arguably the best vocalist around, yet the other guys still got involved. Yet somehow Freddie's still managed to make an impression. Wonder why that is.
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EDIT: Thanks to Cool Chris for posting that quote. Yeah, that seems to be exactly what Nick was saying.
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I think poll results here pretty well indicate many fans would like him to tone it down.
You mean because 81 out of literally thousands of DT fans voted on a poll that didn't allow for "feels just about right," and 66 of those thousands of fans (including me, who loves the vast majority of the MP vocals) felt "less" was a better option than "more?"
Even if half the "less" people voted "just about right," it still proves the point I was making. ;) At least on the scale of hardcores on this board...and I'd bet if the entire casual DT fan fan base voted, there would be WAY more "less" votes.
Why? What is that based on? That's just a massive assumption!
Look, their fanbase is increasing. Wildly. Each album is significantly more successful than the last. Look at how much more of an impression Black Clouds made than Systematic Chaos. And how much more Systematic made than Octavarium. They're growing year-on-year and ever more people are flocking to the CD shops on release-week because they want to see what this band are producing now.
On top of that, they're respected massively by their peers. Iron Maiden are asking them to tour with them. Brian May loves Black Clouds and Silver Linings! He wrote a damn blog about how impressed he was with Dream Theater. Kicking himself for not listening to 'em before. Mikael Akerfeldt digs them. These aren't talentless hacks, they're people who actually know a little bit about music and they seem to think they're doing a.o.k. So why would you assume that everyone's jaded, and if they're not they're a ruddy fence-sitter?
They're actually quite a good band. People connect with their music, and stay loyal. I don't really think they need tips from anyone on how to cater to their fanbase.
Also, keep in mind that Systematic Chaos was their most successful tour. I didn't see many people sighing any of the times I've caught them playing Constant Motion - one of his gruffest performances.
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I was about to say we should split the post of the year awards into two: one for the DT-side and one for GD-side posts. Then I realized Rob would likely win both, so what's the point? :lol
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Rob,
Kindly read the entire thread. I am not wasting my time typing everything out to you.
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I would, but I've already read it once, and it wasn't very good. Really thin on plot, and it had a rubbish ending. Just trails off.
Besides, they're fresh points.
I was about to say we should split the post of the year awards into two: one for the DT-side and one for GD-side posts. Then I realized Rob would likely win both, so what's the point? :lol
Hahaha, thanks, but nooo, there are people FAR funnier than me in GD. And I only make such big posts on DT-side 'cause I take everything too seriously. :lol
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I would, but I've already read it once, and it wasn't very good. Really thin on plot, and it had a rubbish ending. Just trails off.
Besides, they're fresh points.
Guys like you are the ones that make forums go downhill. Don't put down other peoples' opinions you don't agree with. No rubbish and the plot isn't thin at all.
Perhaps you're just sensitive to something you don't like reading. You wouldn't be the first, and you certainly won't be the last.
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Easy tiger!
I made a (relatively) intelligent assessment of the fanbase, a silly joke about the thread being some kind of book (of course it doesn't have a plot! It's not a story! Did I need a badum-tssh? Would it have helped if I'd said I couldn't visualise the characters? Or if I'd suggested that I'd rather be reading Harry Potter?), and you still refuse to give an actual response to any of the perfectly valid things I've suggested?
I'm inviting you to disagree with me! That's why I responded! I'd send you some kind of anonymous email if I didn't want you responding. Or I'd write it on a website! Heck, if I were that petty I'd call it www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com! Chin up. You've still got your health.
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???
Web results Powered by Ask.com
Sorry, no Web results were found for www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com!
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Haha, see, there you go. No horrible diatribes or petty namecalling or nuffink. Slab of pure 404.
It's a discussion board. Let's discuss things!
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I would, but I've already read it once, and it wasn't very good. Really thin on plot, and it had a rubbish ending. Just trails off.
Besides, they're fresh points.
Guys like you are the ones that make forums go downhill. Don't put down other peoples' opinions you don't agree with. No rubbish and the plot isn't thin at all.
Perhaps you're just sensitive to something you don't like reading. You wouldn't be the first, and you certainly won't be the last.
Wtf Sam, he made a lot of good points.
Correct about the JLB stuff though, and thanks Chris for posting that extract. I remember when that was originally posted, and I got the impression then (and still do) that JLB wasn't deliberately left out of the process, it just so happened that this time the timetables worked out that he wasn't as involved. Which he was ok with as a one-off, but as the extract shows, he wants to be included going forward, and I can't see any reason whatsoever why that wouldn't be the case.
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I'm not 100% sure, but I don't recall seeing that anywhere. Are you positive Mike said that?
I remember reading it in the Lifting Shadows book where they talk about 6DOIT. Not sure about page numbers.
I don't think that is the case at all. Most of the fans I've heard way in on the issue do like what Mike did. So, no, I don't think "most" fans are turned off, so in turn, I don't think he would have any such realization.
Mike said he already "knew" that ANTR would cause controversy, and I can't think of any polls that were held about his vocal section in that song (or his growl vocals in general) on here or MP.com where people who actually liked Mike growls lost by anything less than a huge margin like this one. I used to count myself with the people who liked Mike's tough-guy vocals, but now it feels like he needs to do them in EVERY heavy song. It wasn't that way in the old days. It wasn't that way even on ToT. Why does it have to be that way now? Though I do think he brings a lot of the music, I could do with about half as many MP vocals in DT music.
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here's the thing. I said this in a separate thread ToX created as well in the Gen. Music section.
One of the distinct characteristics of DT is the operatic vocal style of James LaBrie. It is a strength of the band. In most bands, from what I have observed over the years, bands write the music to the style and strength of their singers. DREAM THEATER USED TO DO THAT. THEY DO NOT ALWAYS DO THAT NOW.
That, IMO, is a big, big problem.
Tell that to Queen. They had arguably the best vocalist around, yet the other guys still got involved. Yet somehow Freddie's still managed to make an impression. Wonder why that is.
In all fairness, Queen isn't DT. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Also:
Sorry, we couldn't find www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com entered.
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Look, their fanbase is increasing. Wildly. Each album is significantly more successful than the last. Look at how much more of an impression Black Clouds made than Systematic Chaos. And how much more Systematic made than Octavarium. They're growing year-on-year and ever more people are flocking to the CD shops on release-week because they want to see what this band are producing now.
I'm trying to word why I think this is a huge stretch but I just can't. I think it's the word wildly that's bugging me because I've never overheard someone going "hey have you checked out Dream Theater yet?", like, ever.
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Sorry, we couldn't find www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com entered.
Yep, that's pretty much what good ole Rob is saying, without actually saying it. Maturity and willingness to debate intelligently at its finest. ::)
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Look, their fanbase is increasing. Wildly. Each album is significantly more successful than the last. Look at how much more of an impression Black Clouds made than Systematic Chaos. And how much more Systematic made than Octavarium. They're growing year-on-year and ever more people are flocking to the CD shops on release-week because they want to see what this band are producing now.
I'm trying to word why I think this is a huge stretch but I just can't. I think it's the word wildly that's bugging me because I've never overheard someone going "hey have you checked out Dream Theater yet?", like, ever.
Really? Maybe it depends on where you are but certainly in the UK the band are getting a bigger and bigger following, and I overhear people mentioning them or see them wearing their t-shirts more and more every year.
Sorry, we couldn't find www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com entered.
Yep, that's pretty much what good ole Rob is saying, without actually saying it. Maturity and willingness to debate intelligently at its finest. ::)
From the fact that you can't tell that Rob is joking around, I can only assume that you've never read any of his posts before?
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Yep, that's pretty much what good ole Rob is saying, without actually saying it. Maturity and willingness to debate intelligently at its finest.
Okay. I'm going to just take a few steps backward, and then quickly make a dash for it. You're right! Congratulations. I couldn't understand your objections less if you were writing in Sanskrit. Which you might be.
(Note to self: Check if Google Translate has a Sanskrit function. Okay, now I am being cheeky.)
I'm trying to word why I think this is a huge stretch but I just can't. I think it's the word wildly that's bugging me because I've never overheard someone going "hey have you checked out Dream Theater yet?", like, ever.
It happens! I don't like to use fandom as a meter, but check out the "When did you discover Dream Theater" polls. Big spike at Images, then a drop, then they start to really gain momentum at about Train of Thought. People dig Dream Theater. More and more.
53rd to 36th to 19th to 6th isn't exactly baby steps. They're exploding. Booming! Like MP's vocals.
Really? Maybe it depends on where you are but certainly in the UK the band are getting a bigger and bigger following, and I overhear people mentioning them or see them wearing their t-shirts more and more every year.
This is true. I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.
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Look, their fanbase is increasing. Wildly. Each album is significantly more successful than the last. Look at how much more of an impression Black Clouds made than Systematic Chaos. And how much more Systematic made than Octavarium. They're growing year-on-year and ever more people are flocking to the CD shops on release-week because they want to see what this band are producing now.
I'm trying to word why I think this is a huge stretch but I just can't. I think it's the word wildly that's bugging me because I've never overheard someone going "hey have you checked out Dream Theater yet?", like, ever.
Weird. I've seen this a lot more often lately, mostly on campus. This is the first time in my life I've met other people who are into DT for some reason other than me forcing it on them.
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I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.
Okay, and here I thought you were telling the truth until that little exhibition. I call b.s., mister!
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I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.
Okay, and here I thought you were telling the truth until that little exhibition. I call b.s., mister!
Haha, I know! But no, seriously! Even met one a couple of weeks ago, actually. Goes to my uni, turns out she went to the same gig as me on the Chaos in Motion tour! World's gone crazy.
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I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.
Okay, and here I thought you were telling the truth until that little exhibition. I call b.s., mister!
No really it's true. When I tell people about the forum (it comes up in conversation occasionally), when they asked what it's for, 5 years ago if I said Dream Theater people never had a clue what I was talking about, so I started settling for "oh just a band you won't have heard of". In the last couple of years I've actually been able to say the name and people, even girls, tend to at the very least have heard of them, and are sometimes casual or even big fans. Happened with a couple of my new colleagues recently, was a pretty cool moment.
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[/quote]From the fact that you can't tell that Rob is joking around, I can only assume that you've never read any of his posts before?
[/quote]
A - nope. Not really. This is the first time I really passionately posted in the actual DTF section of the board, all day long. So no, I couldn't tell he was joking. Didn't seem like it to me. Sorta weird to have someone joking when we were talking about something fairly intently. Throws off the "train of thought" as it were.
Not sure that was on purpose (which in my line of work, people do that when they aren't comfortable with defending the opposite side of a position), or if it was totally innocent, but I am not familiar with Rob at all or his posts, so I have no past history with him to have known either way.
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I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.
Okay, and here I thought you were telling the truth until that little exhibition. I call b.s., mister!
No, it's true. At one of Nick's recent shows, there were at least two girls in the chat room. One was my girlfriend. The other was Nick's girlfriend. And everyone always remembers those hot chicks who come in from time to time asking to chat with dudes with webcams.
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@Samsara: Ah ok, that would probably explain the confusion then. Trust me, Rob is a really fun, very nice guy, and really isn't the sort of person to be as bitchy as he probably came across if you don't know his humour.
That said, he still made some good points in reply #83 :lol
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Oh ariich you do know how to flatter a lady.
If I'm honest I like to make my posts interesting to read, if at all possible. Can't take anything seriously, that's my problem. Well, I can, but I like to counteract it with a bit of funny. Who wants to read someone being austere about the syncopated rhythms in Metropolis? Bah! Boring! I've got a life to live! Chuck in a nob gag! No point discussing something if you're not enjoying it. If I wanted to do something I didn't enjoy I'd just be sat here knitting a vest for a dog or something. No, make that a snake. I like dogs too much. Which is horribly pretentious but hey, I enjoy myself.
But yeah, sorry Samsara. Does look like this is just hideously crossed wires. You work with bosk, don't you? Which would make you a lawyer? So yeah, that kinda gels! Sorry. My bad, really. I promise that if I'm ever in a court of law, I will be deadly serious. ...ish.
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No point discussing something if you're not enjoying it.
This is the crux of it really. It's the reason most of us post here! :tup
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No point discussing something if you're not enjoying it.
This is the crux of it really. It's the reason most of us post here! :tup
Well, yeah, exactly! When it comes down to it, I enjoy Dream Theater far more than is probably healthy, so naturally there eventually came a point in my life where I realised I'd have to either join a message board, or start writing Dream Theater fanfiction.
I figured the message board was marginally more socially acceptable.
Marginally.
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I wanted to add this quote as well since people have been alluding to it without actually citing it (it's the English major in me):
“It has been proved time and time again that when you have a line-up, and especially a singer, that people grew up listening to, that’s it. That’s the band people want to hear. In all of those cases there will be people that don’t like Yes because of Jon Anderson’s voice or don’t like Iron Maiden because of Bruce Dickinson, but it didn’t matter. And it’s the same with us. This is who we are. He is the right singer for Dream Theater. If we can never crossover to appeal to X amount of people because of our style of singer, then so be it. Take us or leave us…” (Mike Portnoy, p. 287 Lifting Shadows, 2nd ed.)
So, I don't think MP is doing "growls" to crossover for more mainstream success. I think he just heard growling vocals in his mind's eye (ear?) for that section of ANTR. What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done. So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.
Now, I'm in full agreement that MP/JP ought to let JLB have as much of a say as he wants to, especially in regards to melodies -- but I don't think this precludes the possibility of someone else singing a lead vocal now and then.
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This thread delivers. ;D
On topic: Less.
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I can't think of any polls that were held about his vocal section in that song (or his growl vocals in general) on here or MP.com where people who actually liked Mike growls lost by anything less than a huge margin like this one.
Shortly after the release of BC&SL, there was a poll about it at mp.com, I remember a lot of people voting, and the results were pretty lopsided in favor of people not liking that vocal section. Of course, the entire thread was then deleted, and Portnoy's thread about how they came to do those vocals came not long after. Okay, I found the results in another forum where they had been posted at the time:
Portnoy's lead vocal section in "A Nightmare to Remember" - What do you think of it?
Love it 15% (60)
Like it 15% (61)
Am indifferent towards it 9% (39)
Don't care for it, but I can deal with it 28% (113)
Hate it 31% (123)
Total Votes: 396
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That's exactly the poll I remember seeing while lurking at MP.com.
70 percent of fans on the man's forums saying they either hated it, didn't care for it, or were completely indifferent toward it is a horrible sign. That'd be like 70 percent of users at DTF saying they hated, didn't care for, or were completely indifferent toward Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
And you know what? As much as I don't care for those vocals, that part makes for such a fun live experience. Just like Constant Motion does (which is why the band continue to play it). I can totally see where Mike was going with it; too bad it kinda messes with the overall vibe of the song. I think if I could be DT's "producer," on SC I'd keep Mike's parts on Constant Motion but get rid of his parts in PoW and his doubling on The Dark Eternal Night (I'd like to have heard the more melodic singing Petrucci originally intended). On BC&SL, I'd leave him alone on Tuscany, and I'm really not sure what'd I'd do about ANtR. I can totally see why it was such a hard call for the band.
Regardless, I think it might still be safe to say that Mike's got the message. Obviously the man who can do this knows how to swallow his pride:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU&feature=related
(BTW, boring ass crowd totally contradicts what I said about it being a cool live part. Oh well.)
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Yeah, I would imagine that part would go over well live, especially when you consider how rocking the music is.
And to be fair, that poll was conducted right after the album came out, so it is possible that some or many grew to like that part, so who knows what the results would look like now over there (and I ain't gonna be the one to start the poll either! :lol).
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That crowd for that songs reminds me of the crowd at the BTBAM show when they played Swim To The Moon. Same amount of newness, almost the same amount of :|
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So, I don't think MP is doing "growls" to crossover for more mainstream success. I think he just heard growling vocals in his mind's eye (ear?) for that section of ANTR. What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done. So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.
Now, I'm in full agreement that MP/JP ought to let JLB have as much of a say as he wants to, especially in regards to melodies -- but I don't think this precludes the possibility of someone else singing a lead vocal now and then.
Excellent points, especially the bolded part. Overall, you could say BC&SL was a little too run-of-the-mill DT (I sort of feel that way). But they tried some new things here and there, many of them with good results. Even if Portnoy's vocal section in ANTR doesn't really fit the lyrics (which it doesn't, IMO), it fits the music fine and Portnoy pulls it off. He's a good backing vocalist, and I don't mind him doing a spot of lead vocals once in awhile, should the need arise.
-J
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Yeah, but that's cause with DT you have a bunch of instrument geeks listening closely to hear if the band is playing flawlessly or not. They want to hear John solo, they want to hear if Mike misses his fills, they want to hear above all if James is on or not. Whenever I watch a DT DVD filmed in the US, I'm always disappointed by how little the crowd is moving.
At more recent Between the Buried and Me shows, you have teenagers and young adults who grew up with metalcore and want to hear br00tal listening to a dirty organ solo. I stood in line at one of these shows, and nearly everyone I talked to commented on how badly they wished BtBaM would go back to their pre-Alaskan roots.
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Well, DT will stil do whatever they want, and satisfy their fanbase: some more, some less. As it should be.
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What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done. So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.
Maybe I'm too picky but simply trying some growling vocals here and using a new patch there is not progressing. Sure you're playing around with something new but that's trivial compared to actually creating a new style of music or fusing two genres that haven't been fused. Maybe using some classical music inspired prog to blend into funk or electronica or something. That is progressive.
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What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done. So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.
Maybe I'm too picky but simply trying some growling vocals here and using a new patch there is not progressing. Sure you're playing around with something new but that's trivial compared to actually creating a new style of music or fusing two genres that haven't been fused. Maybe using some classical music inspired prog to blend into funk or electronica or something. That is progressive.
I wouldn't say you're too picky. I see where you're coming from.
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What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done. So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.
Maybe I'm too picky but simply trying some growling vocals here and using a new patch there is not progressing. Sure you're playing around with something new but that's trivial compared to actually creating a new style of music or fusing two genres that haven't been fused. Maybe using some classical music inspired prog to blend into funk or electronica or something. That is progressive.
I fully agree with you Orcus. I might add that just because a band is supposedly "progressing" doesn't mean that the direction chosen was a wise choice. Need proof? Two bands that show how to do it wrong: Metallica and Queenswrëck. Metallica finally got it together; Queenswrëck is beyond hopeless. Both tried to do different stuff in an effort to progress, going beyond their core sounds, and look at the results - many long time fans threw up their hands in disgust. Even MP was very critical of the output by both bands for that very reason (that they left their core sound). Sure Metallica still gained in popularity, altho I personally would question how much they'd have gained in popularity if not for the black album. Nonetheless, they pretty much have turned their back on those 3 albums (Load, Reload, St. Anger) in live shows - why? Surely there are plenty of fans that wanna hear Load/Reload stuff. Probably because they realize what a HUGE mistake it was to put those albums out. Here's to hoping that DT doesn't continue down a similar path with cookie monster vocals...
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Yeah, I also agree. Simply growling when you're not known for it isn't progressing. Having Cabaret dancers at your shows isn't progressive. Just like playing a Muse sounding song when you haven't done it before isn't really progressive, but blending something Muse would do with your core sound, throwing some classic prog influences in, and then adding that new Opeth influence into the blender as an afterthought later would be.
ANtR is a progressive song, by that standard, but not because it has growls. It's progressive because it's a rockin' song that turns into a really mellow song that turns into a really heavy death metal song that turns into a weird sounding instrumental before coming back around. Blending styles again is what makes BC&SL better than anything done since SDOIT. For some reason, after making ToT, DT starting writing songs to fit certain genre parameters; i.e. instead of a ballad with an awesome prog section (Surrounded) we're gonna do a ballad that sounds like a ballad a band that wanted to write a ballad would write (TALW, IWBY). I'm glad it seems like they realize that wasn't the best idea and are done writing that way.
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What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done. So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.
Maybe I'm too picky but simply trying some growling vocals here and using a new patch there is not progressing. Sure you're playing around with something new but that's trivial compared to actually creating a new style of music or fusing two genres that haven't been fused. Maybe using some classical music inspired prog to blend into funk or electronica or something. That is progressive.
Well, while I really enjoy fusings of styles, I think that simply doing that is still not progressive. Even doing something that has never been done before (which, lets face it, is next to impossible now) just for the sake of it is not progressive, and at most could be called experimental. Really it comes down to whether you're trying new things for the sake of it, or because it fits creatively with what you want to do.
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Tell that to Queen. They had arguably the best vocalist around, yet the other guys still got involved. Yet somehow Freddie's still managed to make an impression. Wonder why that is.
But Mike and JP don't compare to "the other guys". Even though Mike did do a respectable job of imitating Queen recently, he's not on that level and doesn't write the amazing vocal lines and harmonies that Queen could.
Though, to back-peddle a bit, the harmonies on SFAM are quite good. That's the only context in which I want to hear vocals from anyone but James.
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Though, to back-peddle a bit, the harmonies on SFAM are quite good. That's the only context in which I want to hear vocals from anyone but James.
Oh yeah, completely forgot about that. It's some really good job, especially on Fatal tragedy.
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Don't have time to read this thread right now but I will say that I was pleasantly surprised to hear a full section devoted to MP in A Nightmare to Remember and as someone who ain't that keen on JLB's vox it was a refreshing change of pace imo. Only thing is for me to want more of it I'd have to hear him getting continually better on it album to album. I realize he's still a little new to this style so I'd like to see him add a little grit to it and sound just a touch more confident in his delivery. Those minor bits aside, I'd welcome it gladly as the vox in DT's metal songs need adequate "balls and chunk" to match the music. JLB's a very talented singer but not always a perfect match for heavy songs.
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Though, to back-peddle a bit, the harmonies on SFAM are quite good. That's the only context in which I want to hear vocals from anyone but James.
Oh yeah, completely forgot about that. It's some really good job, especially on Fatal tragedy.
"You can eat my ass and baaaalls!" :lol
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Queenswrëck
lol
Also, *opens up prog/progressive can of worms* while DT has always been a prog band, they haven't really been all that progressive in a long time.
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Well, or ever really. Awake and maybe SDOIT are their only albums that I might consider progressive.
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Ooh, not Images and Words?
That's the one that inspired a genre. I mean it wasn't the first, Fates Warning were doing a similar thing a few years before they came along, but Images and Words became kinda the acceptable face of progressive metal.
I fully agree with you Orcus. I might add that just because a band is supposedly "progressing" doesn't mean that the direction chosen was a wise choice. Need proof? Two bands that show how to do it wrong: Metallica and Queenswrëck. Metallica finally got it together; Queenswrëck is beyond hopeless. Both tried to do different stuff in an effort to progress, going beyond their core sounds, and look at the results - many long time fans threw up their hands in disgust. Even MP was very critical of the output by both bands for that very reason (that they left their core sound). Sure Metallica still gained in popularity, altho I personally would question how much they'd have gained in popularity if not for the black album. Nonetheless, they pretty much have turned their back on those 3 albums (Load, Reload, St. Anger) in live shows - why? Surely there are plenty of fans that wanna hear Load/Reload stuff. Probably because they realize what a HUGE mistake it was to put those albums out. Here's to hoping that DT doesn't continue down a similar path with cookie monster vocals...
I don't know. I don't think they're planning on using cookie monster vocals very much. I mean, at worst, they're going to be occasional injections. Mike's backing, though, has actually added quite a lot. Even the gruffer bits.
Full Circle would be a lot more dull without MP - and that's part of one of the best received songs of the entire decade. Which also climaxes in the closest performance James LaBrie has done to cookie monster vocals. And then there's The Glass Prison. Heck, for Prophets of War his falsetto screams are positively the highlight. And you've got the fantastic cover of Flick of the Wrist.
I dunno. Three out of four of those are fan favourites. And I mean, if we look back, he's only really prominent on eleven tracks or so total. Entire career.
But Mike and JP don't compare to "the other guys". Even though Mike did do a respectable job of imitating Queen recently, he's not on that level and doesn't write the amazing vocal lines and harmonies that Queen could.
Good! Wouldn't want them to. Nah, I know what you mean. But "well, they're not quite Queen!" is a pretty weak slur. They clearly can write good harmonies. Again, Don't Look Past Me is absolutely fantastic, and completely different. Scenes is full of 'em, as you say. I Walk Beside You actually has some really lush stuff going on, too. That kind of stuff would be lovely.
...but tangential, come to think of it! We're talking about the gruffer stuff. All I was saying is that there's nothing inherently wrong with giving the backing vocalists a few more roles, and it won't necessarily reflect badly on JLB. If Freddie Mercury of all people reckoned there was a place for other vocalists in his bands to sing music that he was more than capable of doing himself, I'm sure James LaBrie won't mind sitting back for a little while Mikeyboy takes the rougher stuff that he can't quite reach.
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I think we're all working off of different definitions of the word "progressive." For some it seems to be a certain "sound." Others, an attitude. Still others, something else. I consider DT progressive metal, and, thereby, consider every single one of their albums to be progressive. Now, how much "progress" varies between different albums is open to debate, but I consider things like the "growl" vocals an element of being progressive. Same thing with doing a 'Muse' song or a 'U2' song. It's something new, something experimental. Of course, these experiments may not always be effective (even though I think most of them are), and that likely influences whether or not fans will consider them "progressive" instead of just plain bad musical choices.
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How is sounding like anotherf band experimental? That's pretty much the opposite of experimental.
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I mean that sitting around and saying, "Hey - why don't we try and write a Muse-type song" (which seems to be, based on Lifting Shadows, what they did) is precisely a musical experiment. I don't deem it be unoriginal or, worse, "ripping off," but rather a simple case of "let's write a song in that vein." It's like when The Beatles did the Beach Boys in "Back In The U.S.S.R." It's doing something just to see if you can, which I, at least, regard as experimental enough to warrant the term "progressive." Others obviously disagree. But that Dream Theater have succeeded these past few albums of making songs in various different veins (U2, Muse, Evanescence, etc.) is a testament, not an affront, to their musical ability.
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What you're describing isn't progressive by any definition of the word.
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What you're describing isn't progressive by any definition of the word.
Is there a definitive definition of "progressive" or "progressive metal" as it relates to music? If so, I don't know what it is.
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There's a definition of "progressive." You can find that in any dicitionary.
Progressive rock (and it's subgenre progressive metal) normally applies to the characteristics applicable to the kinds of music the originators of the genre (like Yes, Genesis, Camel, Caravan, Pink Floyd, etc) used: odd time signatures, time changes, long-form compositions, multi-part songs, virtuoso musicians, etc.
I've seen opinions run the gamut over which is "better," but if you call a band "prog" you can bet they will exhibit at least some of the characteristics I listed as part of their style.
Imitating another band's style is not progressive by any definition.
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There's a definition of "progressive." You can find that in any dicitionary.
What's a dictionary?
"Promoting or favoring progress towards improved conditions or new policies, ideas or methods." (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/progressive)
Wouldn't this count as a new idea or method? I understand that songs like IWBY or Never Enough may not sound typically "progressive" to some, but I still feel that the definition fits as part of DT's outlook in trying something new with the method of writing an entire song in the vein of another band.
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If that's your definition then pretty much anything any band does is progressive.
I dunno maybe hef can argue a little better since I'm getting frustrated trying to wrap my head around this. Bottom line is that imitating a band is about as far removed from experimentation and originality you can get aside from copying yourself.
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What contest is saying is that those elements which defined the progressive rock bands in the 70s aren't really progressive anymore. Kind of like being in a union in the 21st century doesn't make you progressive. For some, DT were never progressive because they sounded like the bands from the 70s; they were progressive because they took that sound and updated it for a modern audience. Likewise, continuing to "update" the sound keeps them progressive.
I disagree. Muddying what progressive means in politics and what it means in music leads you to a dead-end where anything suddenly becomes prog.
There's a genre of music called progressive. It has the elements that were listed. Transatlantic doesn't innovate at all, but they're still progressive rock because they have those elements the bands that created the genre have. Fates Warning and Dream Theater are prog too because they share those common elements, not because they're more modern. Same goes for Between the Buried and Me-- they're not prog because they do long songs with tempo changes but they included growls.
Bands like O.S.I. are better described as "experimental."
Seems to me that in music, "progressive" has a very set definition, and "experimental" is better suited to describe greater notions of what the world "progressive" means in general.
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There's a definition of "progressive." You can find that in any dicitionary.
What's a dictionary?
"Promoting or favoring progress towards improved conditions or new policies, ideas or methods." (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/progressive)
Wouldn't this count as a new idea or method? I understand that songs like IWBY or Never Enough may not sound typically "progressive" to some, but I still feel that the definition fits as part of DT's outlook in trying something new with the method of writing an entire song in the vein of another band.
How does imitating someone else count as a new idea or method?
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I think a distinction needs to be made between truly progressive music and "prog," the genre.
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That already exists. There's progressive, and experimental. Bands like Dream Theater (who follow Yes and Genesis), Porcupine Tree (who follow Floyd) Transatlantic (who follow the formula exactly) and Opeth (who kinda mix it all up) are progressive. Bands like Radiohead and O.S.I. should just be called experimental.
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What contest is saying is that those elements which defined the progressive rock bands in the 70s aren't really progressive anymore. Kind of like being in a union in the 21st century doesn't make you progressive. For some, DT were never progressive because they sounded like the bands from the 70s; they were progressive because they took that sound and updated it for a modern audience. Likewise, continuing to "update" the sound keeps them progressive.
I disagree. Muddying what progressive means in politics and what it means in music leads you to a dead-end where anything suddenly becomes prog.
There's a genre of music called progressive. It has the elements that were listed. Transatlantic doesn't innovate at all, but they're still progressive rock because they have those elements the bands that created the genre have. Fates Warning and Dream Theater are prog too because they share those common elements, not because they're more modern. Same goes for Between the Buried and Me-- they're not prog because they do long songs with tempo changes but they included growls.
Bands like O.S.I. are better described as "experimental."
Seems to me that in music, "progressive" has a very set definition, and "experimental" is better suited to describe greater notions of what the world "progressive" means in general.
See, I think a band like BTBAM is easily progressive metal. Why do growls disqualify a band from this distinction? And I would also easily call OSI progressive as well, maybe even progressive metal with some of their songs. What I'm saying is that Dream Theater's choice to write some songs in the vein of other bands is "progressive" in the sense that it is a new approach they had not tried before. Granted, as orcus pointed out, in theory any band could do "something new or different." But I guess for a progressive metal band like DT, perhaps trying to write a U2-type song is the furthest thing from progressive metal they could envision. Therefore, having the balls to try it seems like a "progressive" move, a risky move. Perhaps progressive bands reach a point where the only way they can continue to be progressive is to no longer be progressive anymore (at least in certain songs).
To hef -- it's a new writing method or approach. Whereas previously the band might have said "let's do a Zappa section here," on 8V they decided to write an entire song instead of a section. That this was a new idea from their point of view is clear to me, though whether or not it was "progressive" or not is, as evidenced by this thread, very questionable. But it's at least new. It's like if I'm a poet and decide to write a poem in Robert Frost's style. If I've never tried to emulate another poet before, then it's a new method for me, whether it results in anything very original or not.
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No, BtBaM ARE progressive. But it's NOT because they have growls. It's because they share many common elements with the bands that started the genre.
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No, BtBaM ARE progressive. But it's NOT because they have growls. It's because they share many common elements with the bands that started the genre.
I think the way you worded your original sentence confused me. And I agree; growls alone do not a progressive metal band make.
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The way I usually define prog and progressive as it relates to music:
Prog - a style of rock music that incorporates within individual songs, a number of time changes, technical playing and a variety of instrumentation in a non-standard format (i.e. different than the normal intro, verse, chorus, verse, bridge, solo, chorus, ending format).
Progressive - A rock artist that incorporates a variety of music styles into its core sound from one album to the next.
To me, that's about as best you can define the two without going ridiculously overboard.
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Why not just use progressive and experimental, as most critics seem to do ???
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Let's just forget all musical descriptors except for "good" and "bad."
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Why not just use progressive and experimental, as most critics seem to do ???
Experimental is a term that is way to vague, in my opinion (speaking as a journalist). I only really use that if it is completely off the wall. :lol
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Watch it man! I'm News Editor of my CAMPUS SCHOOL NEWSPAPER! ;D
Really, though. Prog and Experimental are bad enough; I'd never expect the general public to know the difference between progressive and prog.
Then again, I've never had to make that call. Like I said, the past two years I've been focusing on just the n00z.
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Watch it man! I'm News Editor of my CAMPUS SCHOOL NEWSPAPER! ;D
Really, though. Prog and Experimental are bad enough; I'd never expect the general public to know the difference between progressive and prog.
Then again, I've never had to make that call. Like I said, the past two years I've been focusing on just the n00z.
Glad young journalists are out there. Everyone starts somewhere. My first gig was an intern for a magazine publishing company while in college. It led to me being an editorial assistant on one fitness mag, to assistant editor on two fitness, sports/rec mags, and then finally associate editor on the two highest selling mags for the company. I wrote half of the features and news reports in both pubs. I moved on to cover other beats such as housing, construction and politics. And obviously, if you've visited www.breakdownroom.net, you'll see that I also cover rock music.
Good luck to you.
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The way I usually define prog and progressive as it relates to music:
Prog - a style of rock music that incorporates within individual songs, a number of time changes, technical playing and a variety of instrumentation in a non-standard format (i.e. different than the normal intro, verse, chorus, verse, bridge, solo, chorus, ending format).
Progressive - A rock artist that incorporates a variety of music styles into its core sound from one album to the next.
To me, that's about as best you can define the two without going ridiculously overboard.
I agree though I like to think of prog as classical music played with rock instruments.
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I agree though I like to think of prog as classical music played with rock instruments.
Ever listen to Tourniquet? They describe their music as Beethoven meets Frankenstein.
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Regarding "prog" vs. "progressive" vs. "not prog," etc.:
1. That is not what this thread is about at all. Please keep the thread on topic. If you don't have anything to say that is on-topic, have fun reading, but please do not post.
2. Hef's and Samsara's "definitions" are what are generally accepted, simple working descriptions. But if you have to try much harder than that to pigeonhole music into a particular subgenre, you probably are missing the point, IMO.
3. That is not what this thread is about at all. Please keep the thread on topic. If you don't have anything to say that is on-topic, have fun reading, but please do not post.
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Sorry, boss. :(
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That's okay. You didn't start it.
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Sorry, boss. :(
That's okay. You didn't start it.
I also apologize. I think I might have started it with my use of the word "progressing," though I did so in the context of discussing the growls. Things went south from there.
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Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key. The thing is, no one cares because hes running around like a madman entertaining the crowd in other ways, which i would love to see more of.
What i don't get is people bashing his heavy vocals. Sure some songs sound forced, (constant motion) but listen to The Shattered Fortress, he has got the most awesome grit on his voice in that song!
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Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.
This is one thing I appreciate about James. He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly. He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key. A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY. I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#. He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine. That's just good decisionmaking.
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Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.
This is one thing I appreciate about James. He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly. He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key. A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY. I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#. He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine. That's just good decisionmaking.
That DVD is my favorite for that exact reason. Even though he's not hitting the same notes, he sounds good the entire show and is singing his heart out. There's never a point where his vocals sound forced or grating. And he still comes off as impressive. TBH, James' range being back is great, but I think he pushes it a wee too much even now. It's fine having James go denasal to hit that high-note. But when he stays denasal an entire verse so he can hit ALL the highnotes... Let's just say I'd rather have LSFNY.
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Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.
This is one thing I appreciate about James. He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly. He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key. A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY. I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#. He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine. That's just good decisionmaking.
That DVD is my favorite for that exact reason. Even though he's not hitting the same notes, he sounds good the entire show and is singing his heart out. There's never a point where his vocals sound forced or grating. And he still comes off as impressive. TBH, James' range being back is great, but I think he pushes it a wee too much even now. It's fine having James go denasal to hit that high-note. But when he stays denasal an entire verse so he can hit ALL the highnotes... Let's just say I'd rather have LSFNY.
I agree with this so much. His performance on LSFNY was really great.
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Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.
This is one thing I appreciate about James. He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly. He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key. A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY. I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#. He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine. That's just good decisionmaking.
I completely agree with this.
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Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.
This is one thing I appreciate about James. He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly. He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key. A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY. I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#. He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine. That's just good decisionmaking.
That DVD is my favorite for that exact reason. Even though he's not hitting the same notes, he sounds good the entire show and is singing his heart out. There's never a point where his vocals sound forced or grating. And he still comes off as impressive. TBH, James' range being back is great, but I think he pushes it a wee too much even now. It's fine having James go denasal to hit that high-note. But when he stays denasal an entire verse so he can hit ALL the highnotes... Let's just say I'd rather have LSFNY.
I agree with this so much. His performance on LSFNY was really great.
All of this.
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Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.
This is one thing I appreciate about James. He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly. He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key. A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY. I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#. He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine. That's just good decisionmaking.
Exactly, i always thought he was good on that DVD.
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I voted more... because I'm evil like that.
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Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.
This is one thing I appreciate about James. He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly. He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key. A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY. I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#. He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine. That's just good decisionmaking.
That DVD is my favorite for that exact reason. Even though he's not hitting the same notes, he sounds good the entire show and is singing his heart out. There's never a point where his vocals sound forced or grating. And he still comes off as impressive. TBH, James' range being back is great, but I think he pushes it a wee too much even now. It's fine having James go denasal to hit that high-note. But when he stays denasal an entire verse so he can hit ALL the highnotes... Let's just say I'd rather have LSFNY.
I agree with this so much. His performance on LSFNY was really great.
I agree, but I really wish we had at least ONE DVD with the F#5 being nailed as originally recorded . . .
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James LaBrie is the vocal expertise of the band, and the albums where he contributed more to the writing are without a doubt the best albums the band has put out. That Labrie's voice "just doesn't sound good over heavy music" makes absolutely no sense. We're talking about the singer who sang over Caught in a Web, The Mirror, Lie, Home, and most of the songs on Train of Thought. Why not let the "specialist" do his job?
Wait, what? James did NOT contribute to the writing process on any of those albums. As Lifting Shadows points out, James had not been involved in the writing process at all, and the band finally became frustrated with that approach at the time of Six Degrees that they basically gave James an ultimatum and told him they wanted him to be involved. ...Because he wasn't involved on prior albums.
Mostly, because he was saying in interviews "when we were writing" and the band started to feel mad because he wasn't. So they told him: "OK, come here and write with us, we want you here, and you can finally say those things as well".
If it fits the song, then it's fine with me
They never fit the song. If they happen to fit the song, there is a flaw in the songwriting.
Precisely.
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Wow, I didn't even know there were over 100 people on these boards :omg:
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Sorry for reviving this old thread but I feel this belongs here - something I've been wondering for a while but found no answer: Who's actually performing mikes vocal parts on stage these days? like in NtR? Or anything from the 12 step suite? is Petrucchi doing them or are they just avoiding those songs?
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Petrucchi is singing backing vocals now.
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Are you telling me those "vocals" on BC&SL and before were made by Portnoy? :huh:
I always thought it was made by the sixth DT member, The Singin' Troll:
(https://i.qkme.me/3tu2v3.jpg)
I always thought it was something like: "You better let me sing, or I'll kill you all!". There's no other logical explanation...
After all, The Singin' Troll is on Labrie's last effort, too...
:loser:
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Sorry for reviving this old thread but I feel this belongs here - something I've been wondering for a while but found no answer: Who's actually performing mikes vocal parts on stage these days? like in NtR? Or anything from the 12 step suite? is Petrucchi doing them or are they just avoiding those songs?
LaBrie does some.-o-.