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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Samsara on February 16, 2010, 11:31:27 AM
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Lately, I've been lamenting about falling out of love with bands that used to be my favorites. Queensryche (original lineup) was always my favorite and still is, although without that original lineup, it is just a pile of shit. Dream Theater was also a favorite, right behind QR, but I haven't been all that thrilled with their direction the past few albums and they have dropped considerably.
That said, given the hiatus MP talked about, not touring the U.S. as DT on a proper BC&SL headline tour, etc., it got me thinking about the state of the band. MP said that when talking things over with the label, and with the band, they thought right now isn't the right time to tour with the band in the U.S. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Sure, the economy sucks. But plenty of groups are still touring the U.S.
I think there is more to the story than that, and I believe (just my own opinion, not based on anything but observation), it is John Petrucci.
Let me explain:
In my view, John has always been one that really enjoyed mainstream metal and hard rock. Sure, MP loves all that, but at the end of the day, in terms of creating that kind of music, John was always more open to it (in public, from what I recall) than MP ever was. Look at what happened with FII. The label wanted the band to work with an outside writer. John was willing to do it (and did).
When all that ended, and the band was firmly in the grasp of both MP and JP, all of a sudden, the direction of the music went completely progressive. Sure, a song here and there, but for the most part, it was a complete musicians band, with (arguably, since many people disagree on this subject) the emphasis more on technicality than soul and emotion.
Now, not saying that is a bad thing. It obviously wasn't. The band has been very successful since MP and JP took the bull by the horns in 1998 and didn't put up with any label crap. I tip my cap to them for doing it.
But now, fast forward to BC&SL. JP walks in with a fully demoed song (Wither) that is 100 percent rock radio mainstream. A throwback, essentially. This after MP made it a point to say that the band writes together, in-studio and that this is what works best for them.
Does it?
Does it make everyone fully happy? I think not. I think JP is not fully into the current direction of the band, and wanted some time away. Not just based on that example. Since DT announced its (lack of) 2010 plans, MP has made known what he's doing, Myung has talked about doing Jelly Jam, Jordan is always busy, James is working on his solo thing, but what about JP? Nothing. Not a peep.
I wonder if JP is truly artistically satisfied with what is going on with Dream Theater. Mike wasn't back in the FII days, and ultimately, he ended up making sure that things changed so he was. I know JP and MP are as tight as a virgin, but I have to think something other than "not the right time to tour, business-wise" is what is going on here.
Perhaps JP wanted some time away? Maybe throw in the factor his kids are getting older as well? Being a Dad myself, I can really appreciate that.
But my gut is that the style of music DT has been putting out might be wearing a little thin for JP. I listened to a lot of the older DT stuff, and the thing that stood out to me was that older DT songs had a lot of "breathing space" in them. It wasn't always about the technicality, and John really thrived with that.
Not saying he loves one more than the other, but maybe "Wither," and the fact he walked into the studio with it basically finished, is an indication that he is the one that really needed a break from DT for awhile.
Thoughts?
And folks, no ridiculous flame fests. It's a legit question from a legit fan. Don't derail this.
Thanks!
B
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That's an interesting take. It's possible, but who knows. Personally, I think it's healthy when two (or more) members of a band rival for the direction of its sound. I think that "give and take" or "push and pull" mentality helps bands to play with the music to a point where they all get their influences and sound into an album. That's why I like the KM and MP dynamic in early DT and OSI. They butted heads to the point where they both got their "sound" in the album and the music benefited from it.
So, you're basically saying that MP and JP are on different pages right now. I kinda think that would have been reflected in the "Lifting Shadows" book and it wasn't. The book didn't hold back, so if it was an issue I think it would've been addressed in there. But maybe this has sprung up since the book's release.
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I think the label (Roadrunner) ultimately exert more pressure on Dream Theater than any member of the band will ever let on. I'm sure Roadrunner "suggested" to John and Mike that Black Clouds & Silver Linings have a single, and we have every reason, as Sam stated, to believe that John would be more than willing to write it. Likewise, I'm sure Roadrunner suggested waiting until the economy was better for the 2nd World Tour, and, given the convenience of having new Transatlantic to tour on, Mike (who is pretty much the manager of the band) agreed to go with Roadrunner's suggestion.
I don't sense any lack of inspiration coming from any of the band members. Aside from Myung and LaBrie, who is on paper as being p.o.'d about not being included in the BC&SL writing sessions, the other guys seem more "in the zone" creatively now than they have for the past couple of albums.
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Very interesting post. However, I don't think it was more JP than anyone else. I think they all just wanted to take a little break and work on their solo projects. And besides, I don't think the "hiatus" will be that long.... I expect to see DT doing something again by the end of the year/early 2011.
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Perp, I don't remember reading anything about James being pissed off? What are you referencing.
Sam, JP's making a solo album too. It was in an interview a bit back. Forgive me for not having the reference.
Also Sam, I don't think anything musically happens in DT without JP's approval.
But I do agree that the "band" was ready for the break. I believe they knew it too. I think it was at the end of the CiM tour, MP made a comment that the band was out longer than "some" members agreed to.
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I don't have my book with me, but I remember something in the Black Clouds section of Rich Wilson's book that James was disappointed about not being involved enough in the writing process for Black Clouds. I'll check it out when I go back to my apartment later.
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I think there's a number of factors involved. Some of the guys are interested in doing side project stuff (MP with TA and who knows what else, JL with his solo album, JR with everything) and as you acknowledged, the economy is in the crapper and they just figured it was better to sit tight than to go out on the road only to break even (as they did with the PN09 tour here in North America).
As for JP being the prime instigator for the reasons you've listed, at least in part I know that's not the case. I recall reading somewhere (sorry, can't recall where or point to a link) that JP's gonna work on a second solo album. Additionally, with regards to JP writing Wither - while he got the only writing credit for the song, he did not bring a completed song into the studio. He had some basic chord structures and ideas for what he wanted the song to sound like. The rest of the band then helped "flesh" out the song, but not to the point of "Dream Theater-izing" so that the band were cool with JP receiving the only writing credit for the song.
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I dunno. I don't have any facts to back anything that I said up. To take 2010 off, without a proper U.S. headline tour for their biggest charting debut (I think)?
That doesn't make any sense.
Plenty of bands DT's size are still touring...and again, DT had their most successful first week sale/chart ever (I believe). Something's afoot.
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https://www.bravewords.com/news/128112
JP comments on solo album
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Plenty of bands DT's size are still touring...and again, DT had their most successful first week sale/chart ever (I believe). Something's afoot.
I think you're undestimating how bad the economy is, though, and how few people are coming out to shows. Even with their diehard fanbase, most DT shows this year appeared to be at little more than half-capacity. Sure, other bands DTs size are touring but you've got to remember that Dream Theater toured to, and will be touring on this album again when times are better. And it's not just DT that are suffering. A couple weeks ago, Mariah Carey played a show with a similar attendance at a venue which holds 20,000. I don't think Dream Theater are done touring on Black Clouds... I think the tour has just been postponed until more people can afford to go out to shows. Hell, during the opening acts of both shows I went to NO ONE showed up for the opening bands. I think DT realized they would need to take a break and come back on an "Evening With" format to sell tickets. As cool of an idea as Progressive Nation is, I think DT have finally realized that most of us just want to see them.
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I think they used a little pressure from the label and the bad economy as an excuse to take a break. They had been going pretty much non-stop since Jordan joined the band. It was time for a little break I think. Hopefully they'll all take some time to relax, write some new stuff and come back recharged at some point.
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pressure from the label and the bad economy
I put my money on these reasons. Very unfortunate for everyone, but they're handling it professionally.
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Plenty of bands DT's size are still touring...and again, DT had their most successful first week sale/chart ever (I believe). Something's afoot.
I think you're undestimating how bad the economy is, though, and how few people are coming out to shows. Even with their diehard fanbase, most DT shows this year appeared to be at little more than half-capacity. Sure, other bands DTs size are touring but you've got to remember that Dream Theater toured to, and will be touring on this album again when times are better. And it's not just DT that are suffering. A couple weeks ago, Mariah Carey played a show with a similar attendance at a venue which holds 20,000. I don't think Dream Theater are done touring on Black Clouds... I think the tour has just been postponed until more people can afford to go out to shows. Hell, during the opening acts of both shows I went to NO ONE showed up for the opening bands. I think DT realized they would need to take a break and come back on an "Evening With" format to sell tickets. As cool of an idea as Progressive Nation is, I think DT have finally realized that most of us just want to see them.
Trust me, I'm not underestimating how bad the economy is and how few people are coming out to shows. I am just not buying that being the be-all, end-all truth. I grant that it as something to do with it, but something else is out there.
No band I've ever heard of simply does not do a headline tour at all when their album charts where DT's did. It's almost unheard of, unless something dramatic happens (Journey, when Steve Perry refused to tour because of his hip injury, with Trial By Fire in 1996).
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I don't know what this means, but I kinda feel like even though JP has no lack of love for shredding, when it comes to composing and structuring songs, he seems to have the best sense of how to make it work. Look at his solo album vs. JR's.
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Plenty of bands DT's size are still touring...and again, DT had their most successful first week sale/chart ever (I believe). Something's afoot.
I think you're undestimating how bad the economy is, though, and how few people are coming out to shows. Even with their diehard fanbase, most DT shows this year appeared to be at little more than half-capacity. Sure, other bands DTs size are touring but you've got to remember that Dream Theater toured to, and will be touring on this album again when times are better. And it's not just DT that are suffering. A couple weeks ago, Mariah Carey played a show with a similar attendance at a venue which holds 20,000. I don't think Dream Theater are done touring on Black Clouds... I think the tour has just been postponed until more people can afford to go out to shows. Hell, during the opening acts of both shows I went to NO ONE showed up for the opening bands. I think DT realized they would need to take a break and come back on an "Evening With" format to sell tickets. As cool of an idea as Progressive Nation is, I think DT have finally realized that most of us just want to see them.
Trust me, I'm not underestimating how bad the economy is and how few people are coming out to shows. I am just not buying that being the be-all, end-all truth. I grant that it as something to do with it, but something else is out there.
No band I've ever heard of simply does not do a headline tour at all when their album charts where DT's did. It's almost unheard of, unless something dramatic happens (Journey, when Steve Perry refused to tour because of his hip injury, with Trial By Fire in 1996).
To be fair, DT DID tour after the album... I would imagine most people who wanted to see DT did so in that time (although I know a few skipped out because they had no interest in the other bands, they were in the minority).
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To be fair, DT DID tour after the album... I would imagine most people who wanted to see DT did so in that time (although I know a few skipped out because they had no interest in the other bands, they were in the minority).
Yes, they did. But they did not do a "Dream Theater BC&SL headlining tour" in the U.S., their home country, in support of the new album. They did a "Progressive Nation, feat. Dream Theater, tour," which for all intents and purposes may not be all that different. But there is still a difference in perception among a lot of fans and people in the industry.
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To be fair, DT DID tour after the album... I would imagine most people who wanted to see DT did so in that time (although I know a few skipped out because they had no interest in the other bands, they were in the minority).
Yes, they did. But they did not do a "Dream Theater BC&SL headlining tour" in the U.S., their home country, in support of the new album. They did a "Progressive Nation, feat. Dream Theater, tour," which for all intents and purposes may not be all that different. But there is still a difference in perception among a lot of fans and people in the industry.
But on their Progressive Nation tour, they played just as long as most bands I've seen play on their headlining tours (80-90 minutes). So I only feel jipped in comparison to what Dream Theater have done in the past, not in comparison to what comparable bands are doing. Also, there's no reason to think that DT won't be touring on BC&SL next time around.
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To be fair, DT DID tour after the album... I would imagine most people who wanted to see DT did so in that time (although I know a few skipped out because they had no interest in the other bands, they were in the minority).
Yes, they did. But they did not do a "Dream Theater BC&SL headlining tour" in the U.S., their home country, in support of the new album. They did a "Progressive Nation, feat. Dream Theater, tour," which for all intents and purposes may not be all that different. But there is still a difference in perception among a lot of fans and people in the industry.
But on their Progressive Nation tour, they played just as long as most bands I've seen play on their headlining tours (80-90 minutes). So I only feel jipped in comparison to what Dream Theater have done in the past, not in comparison to what comparable bands are doing. Also, there's no reason to think that DT won't be touring on BC&SL next time around.
Touring on BC&SL in 2011 is stupid. The album would have been out for two years. Simply put, they aren't doing a traditional U.S. headline tour on the record, and that is very, very strange. Prog Nation wasn't about DT. It was about progressive music. There is a big, big difference.
It's very odd that they just dropped that bomb about not touring the U.S. on the record.
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Even though you admit that is just your opinion and not based in facts, you´re completely wrong in many things you take for granted as facts. JP said he was interested in doing a new solo album, and you imply that he´s doing nothing while the rest of the band is busy, that´s completely false. Saying that after FII the band went completely progressive doesn´t look like an accurate statement to me, it was like that since the Majesty era, and in Octavarium you can see some return to the FII style in terms of writing more concise rock songs, you have JP writing lyrics for IWBY and TALW, so if he want to explore that area with DT, he has always been free to do it.
And of course, the idea of JP not being satisfied with the music when he is the main songwriter doesn´t seem to make much sense.
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Even though you admit that is just your opinion and not based in facts, you´re completely wrong in many things you take for granted as facts. JP said he was interested in doing a new solo album, and you imply that he´s doing nothing while the rest of the band is busy, that´s completely false.
I was uninformed until I read the replies in this thread. I stand corrected.
Saying that after FII the band went completely progressive doesn´t look like an accurate statement to me, it was like that since the Majesty era, and in Octavarium you can see some return to the FII style in terms of writing more concise rock songs, you have JP writing lyrics for IWBY and TALW, so if he want to explore that area with DT, he has always been free to do it.
That is YOUR opinion, and you have every right to it. I disagree.
And of course, the idea of JP not being satisfied with the music when he is the main songwriter doesn´t seem to make much sense.
Actually, it makes plenty of sense. When a writer is locked into one way of doing things (due to the way a band is structured), it tends to get stale...which is one of the terms I personally use to describe some of the past few DT releases...and a number of others share that opinion.
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Touring on BC&SL in 2011 is stupid. The album would have been out for two years. Simply put, they aren't doing a traditional U.S. headline tour on the record, and that is very, very strange. Prog Nation wasn't about DT. It was about progressive music. There is a big, big difference.
It's very odd that they just dropped that bomb about not touring the U.S. on the record.
Maybe they didn't tour on the album, but they still played 50-75% of it every night of Progressive Nation. That's not too shabby, especially compared to other bands. Just because their world tour wasn't named after their album doesn't mean anything. They had a pretty good run of 80-90 minute shows with PN09, played most of their new material every night, and hit everywhere but Asia-- which could still happen. Sure, I want them to come back. But nothing that's happened seems so strange that I'd think it was due to a member not happy with his role in the band.
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Well I can understand that.
JP does often need to get away from it all. I mean he does need to hunt salmon.
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Well I can understand that.
JP does often need to get away from it all. I mean he does need to hunt salmon.
And he needs time to hibernate. When are the winters in Tuscany?
-Marc.
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Touring on BC&SL in 2011 is stupid. The album would have been out for two years. Simply put, they aren't doing a traditional U.S. headline tour on the record, and that is very, very strange. Prog Nation wasn't about DT. It was about progressive music. There is a big, big difference.
It's very odd that they just dropped that bomb about not touring the U.S. on the record.
Maybe they didn't tour on the album, but they still played 50-75% of it every night of Progressive Nation. That's not too shabby, especially compared to other bands. Just because their world tour wasn't named after their album doesn't mean anything. They had a pretty good run of 80-90 minute shows with PN09, played most of their new material every night, and hit everywhere but Asia-- which could still happen. Sure, I want them to come back. But nothing that's happened seems so strange that I'd think it was due to a member not happy with his role in the band.
Good point. But I guess my hesitation on brushing this all off has to do with the abruptness of it all. No warning, no thing. Everyone was waiting for the U.S. headline tour and BANG "we're not touring." just seems a bit sudden.
Again, remember, I'm just riffing here. I just thought it was an interesting take on the situation. I've got no ego about it being right or anything. But my gut tells me the whole "economy sucks" reasoning wasn't the whole truth.
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Again, remember, I'm just riffing here. I just thought it was an interesting take on the situation. I've got no ego about it being right or anything. But my gut tells me the whole "economy sucks" reasoning wasn't the whole truth.
Same. IMO it was Roadrunner's "suggestion."
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Again, remember, I'm just riffing here. I just thought it was an interesting take on the situation. I've got no ego about it being right or anything. But my gut tells me the whole "economy sucks" reasoning wasn't the whole truth.
Same. IMO it was Roadrunner's "suggestion."
I agree Sam, but I didn't think it was a Roadrunner thing.
I'm thinking it was for the overall health of the band.
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The amount of touring they've done in this deacade alone is stagering. I think most of the guys (Except Mr. OCD, MP) wanted a long break that they've desrved. We've been a little bit spoiled with there work ethic over the last 10 year. Most established bands take 4 years off between the studio, touring for that album and then the process starting again. I do think that there bread and butter for making money is touring so mabye they're just a little burnt and need to recharge their batteries and be with their families who are growning up fast. Time flies on the road.
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Perp, I don't remember reading anything about James being pissed off? What are you referencing.
On p. 361 in Lifting Shadows (2nd edition) JLB talks about how the lyrics played out for Black Clouds and says, basically, that while he's ok it happened this time, there is no way that he won't have lyrical contributions on the next cd.
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Sorry but I'm a bit of a DT noob compared to some of you.
John Petrucci is more inclined to make radio friendly songs?
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Sorry but I'm a bit of a DT noob compared to some of you.
John Petrucci is more inclined to make radio friendly songs?
Yeah. To this day John has said that he doesn't regret at all the cooperation he gave to the label during the making of Falling Into Infinity, and feels he's improved tremendously by having artists like Desmond Child help him write "singles."
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Sorry but I'm a bit of a DT noob compared to some of you.
John Petrucci is more inclined to make radio friendly songs?
Yeah. To this day John has said that he doesn't regret at all the cooperation he gave to the label during the making of Falling Into Infinity, and feels he's improved tremendously by having artists like Desmond Child help him write "singles."
Damn he said that? The help of other artists and whatnot is fine (even great) of course, but he honestly thinks Desmond Child contributed something positive to something he wrote?
-J
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Maybe they also need a general DT break to let them write their 11th album in a more unconventional way than from the way they've written the run of the last 4 albums. Perhaps they know what some fans have said on these forums and elsewhere, things like taking a break between albums and (hopefully) sitting on songs they've written to see how well they age and tweaking anything necessary, instead of just kind of rushing it through.
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Maybe they also need a general DT break to let them write their 11th album in a more unconventional way than from the way they've written the run of the last 4 albums. Perhaps they know what some fans have said on these forums and elsewhere, things like taking a break between albums and (hopefully) sitting on songs they've written to see how well they age and tweaking anything necessary, instead of just kind of rushing it through.
Indeed... with Octavarium, they closed out the so-called Meta-Album with ending "Octavarium" with the opening of the album, closing that string of albums (SFAM-SDOIT-TOT-8VM)... and with BC&SL, they ended The Twelve-Step Suite with "Shattered Fortress", so now with their next album, there are no real expectations anymore. No concepts to continue, so anything is possible.
-Marc.
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Samsara, with all due respect, I think you're overanalyzing nothing to create a scenario that's simply not there.
It's an interesting theory, but I don't see a strong basis for it at all. I don't see any of the guys going this long in their tight DT schedule if they weren't happy, and I have no reason to believe that their current situation is anything other than a financial decision.
PN wouldn't have been all that profitable for them (being split between 4 bands, and some fans waiting for regular shows), and they probably figured they didn't want to wear it out, which would explain why the tour has continued in other parts of the world. It's not all about the US, after all.
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Most established bands take 4 years off between the studio, touring for that album and then the process starting again.
4 years? Yeah, maybe bands like Rush and others that have been around 10 or 20 years more than DT. But since the 80's it's pretty much been a 2 year cycle for many bands.
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Most established bands take 4 years off between the studio, touring for that album and then the process starting again.
4 years? Yeah, maybe bands like Rush and others that have been around 10 or 20 years more than DT. But since the 80's it's pretty much been a 2 year cycle for many bands.
A little later in my post I said that we've been spoiled by DT with the amount of touring and albums they've done. DT makes it's money by touring. That's why they do it so much.
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Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong but Dream Theater have pretty much done TWO World Tours per album for the last decade... right?
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Sorry but I'm a bit of a DT noob compared to some of you.
John Petrucci is more inclined to make radio friendly songs?
Yeah. To this day John has said that he doesn't regret at all the cooperation he gave to the label during the making of Falling Into Infinity, and feels he's improved tremendously by having artists like Desmond Child help him write "singles."
Thanks. Definitely not something I would expect considering Mike's feelings toward the situation.
It's hardly enough evidence to suggest that he is unhappy with DT, though.
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This is a really cool post I think. The KIND THAT i'M INTERESTED IN SEEING MORE OF.
The only thing I have to add is that when it was announced on the site, it left me wanting to know more about the specific band/management reasons for the lack of work in 2010. I don't have the balls to post my own speculation as to the real reasoning, but I would be surprised if it was for artistic reasons.
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Interesting thread, though I don't agree really, anything is possible though of course. Many points have already been said and I don't want to just repeat them.
Something I will add though is, if JP (or whoever in the band) was feeling stale by the direction and writing chemistry, surely they wouldn't be so willing to go into the studio and write a new song like they just have.
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I'm not sure I buy the whole "JP likes to write radio-friendly music" angle. Suspended Animation anyone? Couldn't be LESS radio-friendly. Not to mention, in one of Jordan's interviews he stated that JP loves to push the heaviness envelope. To top it off the guy is never shy about shredding or playing in crazy meters.
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There is no spoon.
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I'm not sure I buy the whole "JP likes to write radio-friendly music" angle. Suspended Animation anyone? Couldn't be LESS radio-friendly. Not to mention, in one of Jordan's interviews he stated that JP loves to push the heaviness envelope. To top it off the guy is never shy about shredding or playing in crazy meters.
TBH my guess is that John is pretty happy as long as what he plays makes it apparent that he's a guitar god.
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Samsara, with all due respect, I think you're overanalyzing nothing to create a scenario that's simply not there.
It's an interesting theory, but I don't see a strong basis for it at all. I don't see any of the guys going this long in their tight DT schedule if they weren't happy, and I have no reason to believe that their current situation is anything other than a financial decision.
PN wouldn't have been all that profitable for them (being split between 4 bands, and some fans waiting for regular shows), and they probably figured they didn't want to wear it out, which would explain why the tour has continued in other parts of the world. It's not all about the US, after all.
Blob,
It might not be there, I'll grant you that. But discussion forums are meant for discussion. I raise the point because I think there is something more there than simply "the economy sucks so we're not touring." It's an opinion, based on a variety of factors I illustrated in my first post.
If you want to disagree with that, that's absolutely fine Blob. Again, it was an opinion. It carries the same weight as you saying to me: "I think you're over analyzing nothing to create a scenario that's simply not there." -- that is your opinion, and who knows what the real truth is. You certainly do not, and I don't either. It's called speculation.
DT gave us their official statement on the downtime. I simply don't believe that's the be-all, end-all truth. :) And I'm speculating and discussing that opinion.
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Sorry but I'm a bit of a DT noob compared to some of you.
John Petrucci is more inclined to make radio friendly songs?
Yeah. To this day John has said that he doesn't regret at all the cooperation he gave to the label during the making of Falling Into Infinity, and feels he's improved tremendously by having artists like Desmond Child help him write "singles."
Thanks. Definitely not something I would expect considering Mike's feelings toward the situation.
It's hardly enough evidence to suggest that he is unhappy with DT, though.
THIS (Perpetual's post explaining John's feelings on FII) is one of the things I am talking about. Perhaps DT isn't really all that artistically fulfilling to him. It is to Mike, because Mike is the "creative director" who shapes the band's overall direction. And I'm sure JP LIKES it, but I have to believe that it can wear a little thin on someone who OBVIOUSLY likes mainstream hard rock music and likes to write it (Petrucci).
Again, it's ONE factor in my list of things I brought up to support the overall view that the "economic" reasons behind DT not touring the U.S. with a full on BC&SL headline show is not the full truth. I could be wrong, sure. But I do know this...dealing with someone like MP, even if he's your best friend and business partner, can be rough on someone, particularly in a creative partnership.
As was said above, JP doesn't regret FII one bit, and he shouldn't (in my opinion) because it's a GREAT record. That difference in opinion between JP and MP on that led to MP pretty much doing things his way, in order to stay in the band. JP went along with it (and I'm sure enjoys all the records they've made since then). But maybe, just maybe, JP noticed that doing things the same way for 10 years has left things a little stale.
Not bad, but stale. I think so. I think JP is the main reason behind the break. And again, that's only an uninformed opinion based on observation. If I'm wrong, so be it. I have no ego about it. But it seems awfully clear to me it had more to do with certain folks needing to get away a bit to recharge the batteries and have a fresh perspective on what they want in music.
MP does a world of good for the band, but being a fellow OCD-like guy, I know first hand that guys like MP and myself wear thin on our families and friends once in awhile if we don't back off and allow them their creative space and ability to contribute the way they need. I'm thinking it's one of of those times for Dream Theater.
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I don't necessarily agree with your theory, Samsara, but you made a good thread. I like reading things like this.
I think the business side of things was a part of the decision to not tour the US again, but not the whole thing. I definitely think some burn out could be possible.
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Suspended Animation anyone? Couldn't be LESS radio-friendly.
I'm gonna take a huge guess, but when was the FIRST time you heard an instrumetal song in a popular rock radio station?
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Suspended Animation anyone? Couldn't be LESS radio-friendly.
I'm gonna take a huge guess, but when was the FIRST time you heard an instrumetal song in a popular rock radio station?
Exactly. And the solo album realm is completely different from his work with DT.
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Suspended Animation anyone? Couldn't be LESS radio-friendly.
I'm gonna take a huge guess, but when was the FIRST time you heard an instrumetal song in a popular rock radio station?
I'd say it's been quite a few years. I've *regularly* heard Rush's YYZ as well as Surfing With the Alien; Always with Me, Always with You; The Crush of Love; Back to Shalla-Bal; Summer Song and Why - all from Satriani. And several of those are still played with some regularity on the radio today.
Yeah, instrumental music doesn't appear much on popular rock radio, BUT if that was JP's intention, he wouldn't have written a bunch of songs that run over 6 minutes a piece (7 of the 8 on Suspended Animation are at least over 6 minutes in length).
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I don't necessarily agree with your theory, Samsara, but you made a good thread. I like reading things like this.
I agree. And it's great to see a thread like this containing discussion on a very civilised level, without dismissing a speculative theory as bullshit just because there's no further proof or because of disagreement (although some people might have come close).
Great thread.
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Honestly, I just think it's because they're planning to make the next N.A. tour completely badass, to the point where it will be the tour that every Dream Theater fan goes to (within reason). Also, when I saw DT at PN09 they were very much BCSL focused, and it seems like they were hoping the NA crowd would be satisfied by that. Having seen them, I was.
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All I will say is that there are almost certainly specifics that didn't make the press release. But given the fact that subsequent reports from the DT camp have included the fact that future tours will be in the "Evening With" format, and the fact of the recording for God of War, indicates that there are no serious personality conflicts or any other serious issues. I think the break will be good for them all the way around.
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To be fair, DT DID tour after the album... I would imagine most people who wanted to see DT did so in that time (although I know a few skipped out because they had no interest in the other bands, they were in the minority).
Yes, they did. But they did not do a "Dream Theater BC&SL headlining tour" in the U.S., their home country, in support of the new album. They did a "Progressive Nation, feat. Dream Theater, tour," which for all intents and purposes may not be all that different. But there is still a difference in perception among a lot of fans and people in the industry.
But on their Progressive Nation tour, they played just as long as most bands I've seen play on their headlining tours (80-90 minutes). So I only feel jipped in comparison to what Dream Theater have done in the past, not in comparison to what comparable bands are doing. Also, there's no reason to think that DT won't be touring on BC&SL next time around.
I have to agree with Perpetual. I realize that it wasn't a headlining tour, but I heard half of BCSL, and still got 90 minutes of music. A headlining tour would have extended the concert by 30 minutes, and while I would have loved that I don't feel cheated. If you skipped PN10 because you were waiting for the Headlining Tour I think its your own fault. They're my favorite band, and there's no way I'd miss a show of theirs.
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Samsara, with all due respect, I think you're overanalyzing nothing to create a scenario that's simply not there.
It's an interesting theory, but I don't see a strong basis for it at all. I don't see any of the guys going this long in their tight DT schedule if they weren't happy, and I have no reason to believe that their current situation is anything other than a financial decision.
PN wouldn't have been all that profitable for them (being split between 4 bands, and some fans waiting for regular shows), and they probably figured they didn't want to wear it out, which would explain why the tour has continued in other parts of the world. It's not all about the US, after all.
Blob,
It might not be there, I'll grant you that. But discussion forums are meant for discussion. I raise the point because I think there is something more there than simply "the economy sucks so we're not touring." It's an opinion, based on a variety of factors I illustrated in my first post.
If you want to disagree with that, that's absolutely fine Blob. Again, it was an opinion. It carries the same weight as you saying to me: "I think you're over analyzing nothing to create a scenario that's simply not there." -- that is your opinion, and who knows what the real truth is. You certainly do not, and I don't either. It's called speculation.
DT gave us their official statement on the downtime. I simply don't believe that's the be-all, end-all truth. :) And I'm speculating and discussing that opinion.
That's fine. This is a forum, and discussion is always welcome, especially when it's something out of the ordinary, it's just that in my opinion your evidence is weak and your opinion mostly based on speculation. I can address each point if you want.
First of all, their decision not to tour the US again was obviously a hard one for them to make, and not one they took lightly. By the fact their tour has continued in other parts of the world suggests (to me at least) that it was a matter of feeling they'd oversaturated the US market for now. PN didn't go as well as they'd hoped. The reason was a combination of the economy making people cut back on concerts, and people waiting for headlining shows rather than see a shorter set of DT, taking for granted the fact they'd have a second US tour. I don't know how many people fall into the latter group, but they couldn't assume that this was the case, and that they'd have the numbers for a second leg. They tour the US multiple times every tour, every two years, and maybe they felt they'd worn out the crowd a bit. Keep in mind they only cancelled a second US leg, not the whole tour. Many of the shows they've played since have been in places they've never been to, or places they haven't played very often.
As for JP, I don't see any basis for that either. To me the fact that JP hasn't done a lot of outside DT work tells me that he's more artistically satisfied with DT than anyone in the band. He's the main songwriter, he's the one who writes all of these heavy riffs, and the music is more guitar focused than its ever been. And with the current popularity of metal, DT's current direction can fulfill them artistically while still gaining them ever growing popularity. If anyone in DT is happy with their current direction, I'd say it's JP (and MP). With JR, JM and JLB I can hear that there are sides of their musicality that aren't fully utilized in DT leading to their need for solo albums (just look at JR's last two), while I feel that JP has plenty of space to do what he wants to in his soloing and riffing. I feel his solo album is proof of that, as it's not all that far from what DT have been doing recently.
I'm sorry if it felt like I wasn't taking your opinion seriously, but I stick by what I said.
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Personally, I think it's healthy when two (or more) members of a band rival for the direction of its sound.
Agreed, and this is why Awake is a masterpiece.
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It's an interesting question - the reason for the hiatus - and certainly one I've been thinking about.
I do think that the band just viewed this as the perfect time to take a break. Why bother slogging your guts out on tour for months if you're not going to get paid for it at the end of it? So with the combination of the economy and the guys wanting to get into side projects, it just all made sense. I certainly haven't got any bad vibes about the band not being happy as unit, though in reality you would only find out if there are / were any issues a few years down the line.
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This is a really good thread. I think that the guys just wanted to do something aside from DT, having done SC, CiM Tour, BCSL & PN08-09 during these years. It's OK for me if they want to take a break and do something individually (Which is also interesting), I think it was about time and the economy crisis might have been a warning for them to take it. Furthermore they can think about some ideas for the next album and spread their creativity instead of doing uninspired albums just because they have to. I think their hiatus won't last too long (2010 and maybe half 2011).
As for JP, even though I don't agree completely with this (I don't think he's uncomfortable with the band being one of the producers and main composers of DT), I also think this break will help him to do whatever he wants to do and then come back to DT to do whatever they want to do.
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Personally I think this doesnae make sense because DT are way more mainstream now than they were 10 years ago. They're a much bigger band and far more metal than they are prog (yes, endless soloing does not a prog song make). I'm not saying this is a bad thing in any way, I still really enjoy DT's albums but I think this makes the theory seem a tad unlikely.
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Couple more things I noticed while looking over the Lifting Shadows book.
As I suspected, under the Mike/John Producer system John is just as much of a creative director as Mike. In the Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence Section, there's an interview with Jordan explain how John directed him through coming up with most of the main themes of the second disc. He said John would stand there and tell him, "play something sad. now play the happiest thing you've ever heard" and so on.
That's probably the extened of Mike's creative directing, and it looks like John does it too. On a side note, we also have all scene how James can get beat up by Mike and John equally whilst recording his vocals.
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Suspended Animation anyone? Couldn't be LESS radio-friendly.
I'm gonna take a huge guess, but when was the FIRST time you heard an instrumetal song in a popular rock radio station?
FRANKENSTEIN!! :metal
I certainly haven't got any bad vibes about the band not being happy as unit, though in reality you would only find out if there are / were any issues a few years down the line.
Pimping the 3rd edition already? ;D
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It's an interesting question - the reason for the hiatus - and certainly one I've been thinking about.
I do think that the band just viewed this as the perfect time to take a break. Why bother slogging your guts out on tour for months if you're not going to get paid for it at the end of it? So with the combination of the economy and the guys wanting to get into side projects, it just all made sense. I certainly haven't got any bad vibes about the band not being happy as unit, though in reality you would only find out if there are / were any issues a few years down the line.
Likewise, it always struck me as strange that the news of James' vocal accident didn't really come out til way later. What the heck did people think happened to his voice for all that time?
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I think it would be awesome if they had a break, did some side projects etc, and then cam out with a huge world tour BEFORE DOING ANOTHER ALBUM.
That way they aren't obliged to focus on any album so we can songs like ACOS and stuff played again.
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I thought the video for Wither (their best, IMO) explained a lot about the duality of touring. For every enjoyable part (playing the new material, meeting fans, having fun backstage, rock juice, etc) there seems to be an equal not-so-enjoyable part (autographing until your hand feels numb, the bus rides, missing family, arguments, etc.)
These guys deserve a break, no matter if it was "forced" by the record company, suggested by the band itself, or whatever reason. I think all five will come back, when they come back, with a renewed vigor because of the time off. Bottom line, good or bad, making music and presenting it live is what they do.
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I think it would be awesome if they had a break, did some side projects etc, and then cam out with a huge world tour BEFORE DOING ANOTHER ALBUM.
That way they aren't obliged to focus on any album so we can songs like ACOS and stuff played again.
Haven't thought of that, but it's a brilliant idea.
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Quote from Perpetual Change:" Likewise, it always struck me as strange that the news of James' vocal accident didn't really come out til way later. What the heck did people think happened to his voice for all that time?"
Actually, There's an interview with James in an issue of Neil Elliotts fanzine "Images and Words" from circa '96-'97. In it he says something like, "They were seeing someone with ruptured vocal cords. I want to go back to Europe and redeem myself." Rich Wilson should know about this interview too as Lifting Shadows is heavily compiled from back issues of I&W, TOD and New Voice.
James LaBrie also mentions it on the audio commentary to the "5 Years in a Livetime" DVD .
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Well, that is "way later," is it not?
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I remember that they had 7 album contract with ATCO.
what about about their contract with roadrunner? how many albums?
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what about about their contract with roadrunner? how many albums?
3
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what about about their contract with roadrunner? how many albums?
3
Now, THAT's something interesting that might span some interesting discussion..
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To this day John has said that he doesn't regret at all the cooperation he gave to the label during the making of Falling Into Infinity, and feels he's improved tremendously by having artists like Desmond Child help him write "singles."
Damn he said that? The help of other artists and whatnot is fine (even great) of course, but he honestly thinks Desmond Child contributed something positive to something he wrote?
Considering Desmond Child is considered a songwriting genius by a lot of people, why wouldn't John Petrucci think that? Even though the only song he is credited on with the band was a major clunker, it is very likely that some of his ideas and whatnot for writing songs rubbed off on Petrucci and showed up in other songs, and that is what JP is talking about.
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And for that matter, it's also possible that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.
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that's why I'm curious to know..
well now they still have 1 album to go, assuming the possibility that they won't renew the contract.
with 1 album to go, I think they should take a break and dont force themselves.
maybe with the break they will comeback with full force write the 11th album.
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I don't know why they would leave Roadrunner, though. They seem pretty content.
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Well, that is "way later," is it not?
Granted I wasn't around the internet back then and only started lurking circa Train of Thought, I didn't know too much about DT. But my general impression was always that people didn't start talking about the vocal accident until around that time.
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To this day John has said that he doesn't regret at all the cooperation he gave to the label during the making of Falling Into Infinity, and feels he's improved tremendously by having artists like Desmond Child help him write "singles."
Damn he said that? The help of other artists and whatnot is fine (even great) of course, but he honestly thinks Desmond Child contributed something positive to something he wrote?
Considering Desmond Child is considered a songwriting genius by a lot of people, why wouldn't John Petrucci think that? Even though the only song he is credited on with the band was a major clunker, it is very likely that some of his ideas and whatnot for writing songs rubbed off on Petrucci and showed up in other songs, and that is what JP is talking about.
I was assuming all he worked on was You Not Me, which probably shows my ignorance of the recording process, etc (i.e. it's possible he made some contributions to FII that he didn't get credit for). Still, out of curiosity, I'd like to see the quote where Petrucci says he "improved tremendously from learning how to write 'singles'", or whatever.
And for that matter, it's also positive that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.
Is it?
-J
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And for that matter, it's also positive that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.
Interesting then that they've only played the song 3 times or so. What does that say? I wonder what kind of input the rest of the band has regarding setlists? Are they just given the setlists by MP? Is there discussion about particular songs certain band members might want to play? I don't know. Perhaps others have some insight.
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Surely Setlist Scotty can speak on this matter, but I think that just like in many other DT issues, MP does it because nobody else in the band wants to do it. He takes care of constructing the setlists and is open to any kind of recommendations, but I don´t see the other guys given him much input about it. He cares a lot, the other 4 members... not that much, probably.
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I think it would be awesome if they had a break, did some side projects etc, and then cam out with a huge world tour BEFORE DOING ANOTHER ALBUM.
That way they aren't obliged to focus on any album so we can songs like ACOS and stuff played again.
Haven't thought of that, but it's a brilliant idea.
This.
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And for that matter, it's also positive that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.
Neither do I.
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I wonder what kind of input the rest of the band has regarding setlists? Are they just given the setlists by MP? Is there discussion about particular songs certain band members might want to play? I don't know. Perhaps others have some insight.
Way back in the day (I assume the Majesty and WDaDU days, and maybe part of the IaW tour) there was more of a democracy when it came to putting together the setlist...or at least an attempt at democracy. But of course there was bickering over what the setlists would be, and eventually MP won out. I don't think there is much discussion about particular songs band members might wanna play, if any at all.
The only specific instance I know of a setlist issue was when MP wanted to do Ozzy's Revelation (Mother Earth) and JL strongly requested not doing the track - they ended up doing Diary of a Madman instead.
I do know that pretty much everyone aside from MP would be happy not to play anything from the Majesty demos or WDaDU, but fortunately MP makes sure these are included. So it would appear that MP pretty much controls the setlists and the other guys just follow the direction they're given, unless they are really against it, as was the case with Revelation (Mother Earth).
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And for that matter, it's also positive that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.
Interesting then that they've only played the song 3 times or so. What does that say? I wonder what kind of input the rest of the band has regarding setlists? Are they just given the setlists by MP? Is there discussion about particular songs certain band members might want to play? I don't know. Perhaps others have some insight.
Sorry, that was a typo. I mean to say: "And for that matter, it's also possible that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker."
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All I will say is that there are almost certainly specifics that didn't make the press release. But given the fact that subsequent reports from the DT camp have included the fact that future tours will be in the "Evening With" format, and the fact of the recording for God of War, indicates that there are no serious personality conflicts or any other serious issues. I think the break will be good for them all the way around.
Very well put. My thoughts exactly.
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And for that matter, it's also possible that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.
And if that is true, I fully agree with JP. It's a good song as it appears on the record, and a very good radio single. It's better than the demo, in this fan's opinion and that's what you want...demos taken and improved upon.
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I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.
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I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.
+ 1
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When a friend and I were getting into DT and we heard that song, we knew that we were witnessing one terrible song that each great band has. It's a boy-band single. We even did a choreography to that song.
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It's a boy-band single. We even did a choreography to that song.
Like Derek Sherinian in the 5YiaLT DVD? I need to make a gif out of that part :lol
Same here. I mean, all I heard was a band I was getting into singing "Watching You Run is Making Me Lazy" in the middle of a porn-like riff. It wasn't awful... But it was bad, and it wasn't DT.
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I wonder what kind of input the rest of the band has regarding setlists? Are they just given the setlists by MP? Is there discussion about particular songs certain band members might want to play? I don't know. Perhaps others have some insight.
Way back in the day (I assume the Majesty and WDaDU days, and maybe part of the IaW tour) there was more of a democracy when it came to putting together the setlist...or at least an attempt at democracy. But of course there was bickering over what the setlists would be, and eventually MP won out. I don't think there is much discussion about particular songs band members might wanna play, if any at all.
The only specific instance I know of a setlist issue was when MP wanted to do Ozzy's Revelation (Mother Earth) and JL strongly requested not doing the track - they ended up doing Diary of a Madman instead.
I do know that pretty much everyone aside from MP would be happy not to play anything from the Majesty demos or WDaDU, but fortunately MP makes sure these are included. So it would appear that MP pretty much controls the setlists and the other guys just follow the direction they're given, unless they are really against it, as was the case with Revelation (Mother Earth).
This is all very interesting information. Thanks! Strange that no one but MP wants to play anything from WDaDU or before. Are they tired of those songs, or feel like those songs are a little too immature? Anyway, I'm glad they play them, even if it is only by MP's sovereign decree. I also think it a little strange that seemingly none of the other band members have strong feelings about maybe wanting to play certain songs. But I guess that's just the way it works. Cool detail about the Ozzy thing too; I remember that incident being mentioned in the book, but they didn't reveal the song title.
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I don't find the WDADU thing that odd. James doesn't sound great on it, Jordan has no emotional attachment to it, John P likes focusing on the new stuff, and it's likely not to get a great fan reaction.
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I don't find the WDADU thing that odd. James doesn't sound great on it, Jordan has no emotional attachment to it, John P likes focusing on the new stuff, and it's likely not to get a great fan reaction.
All of this. While WDADU clearly has its fans, overall I don't think the songs are that well known and called for live. And with 9 albums worth of other material to get through, it doesn't make sense to put too much WDADU material in there.
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Strange that no one but MP wants to play anything from WDaDU or before. Are they tired of those songs, or feel like those songs are a little too immature?
Neither James or Jordan had anything to do with the Majesty demos or WDaDU, so neither of them really care about those songs - as was already said, they have no emotional attachment. And JP and I believe JM both view those early songs as being immature, which is why they're not interested in playing them.
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And for that matter, it's also possible that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.
And if that is true, I fully agree with JP. It's a good song as it appears on the record, and a very good radio single. It's better than the demo, in this fan's opinion and that's what you want...demos taken and improved upon.
Gotta strongly disagree with you there. I think it's bad, as a single or otherwise, and I think the demo is--while still not a great song--significantly better. These untrained ears cannot detect anything positive that Child might have added to the final product. And I have no problem with "singles" in general like some here seem to: some of the best songs ever have been singles, and there are a LOT of great ones.
But whether or not Petrucci is happy with the outcome is all that matters with regard to this discussion. I'd still be interested to see that quote, if PC or anybody has time to dig it up.
-J
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Good points to all who pointed out why the rest of the band isn't big on playing the debut album live; it makes sense. Although, if the worry is that some of the songs are immature, I don't see how they would be any more so than some of the crazy instrumental sections that threaten to derail newer tracks (Endless Sacrifice, TMoLS). Anyway, perhaps JP and MP can compromise by dropping WDaDU tracks for a tour and adding You Not Me, that is, if we can actually establish that JP does in fact like the album version of the track.
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Good points to all who pointed out why the rest of the band isn't big on playing the debut album live; it makes sense. Although, if the worry is that some of the songs are immature, I don't see how they would be any more so than some of the crazy instrumental sections that threaten to derail newer tracks (Endless Sacrifice, TMoLS). Anyway, perhaps JP and MP can compromise by dropping WDaDU tracks for a tour and adding You Not Me, that is, if we can actually establish that JP does in fact like the album version of the track.
Huge difference between a section you don't feel fits, and a whole song (and album) that is poorly written by amateurs.
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I don't know, there's a couple great songs on WDADU. I can see why the band and fans wouldn't want them played so much, but I'd be more than happy to hear Status Seeker or The Killing Hand at any future DT show I attend.
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I think that about half of WDADU still kind of holds up and sounds OK, and the other half is a little silly.
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See, I'd love to hear pretty much anything off of WDADU live. I don't feel like the tunes are silly or immature at all, although I understand a lot of artists look back on their 1st records with some measure of disdain.
Good points to all who pointed out why the rest of the band isn't big on playing the debut album live; it makes sense. Although, if the worry is that some of the songs are immature, I don't see how they would be any more so than some of the crazy instrumental sections that threaten to derail newer tracks (Endless Sacrifice, TMoLS). Anyway, perhaps JP and MP can compromise by dropping WDaDU tracks for a tour and adding You Not Me, that is, if we can actually establish that JP does in fact like the album version of the track.
Huge difference between a section you don't feel fits, and a whole song (and album) that is poorly written by amateurs.
Yes - that's a fair point about the difference between sections and songs. However, witness the people (as in the Endless Sacrifice thread going right now) who say the instrumental portion ruins the entire song for them and that they no longer listen to it. In that case, not that much different than if the entire song is deemed unlistenable. On the level of an album, however, it's obviously a bit different if one feels that it's primarily an immature, self-indulgent barrage of notes written by Berklee dropouts. I don't agree with that assessment, and yet I can see why others (including members of the band) might.
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I think that about half of WDADU still kind of holds up and sounds OK, and the other half is a little silly.
Yeah, that sounds about right. Even I consider 4/8 to be pretty decent songs, but the other half are kinda embarrassing for DT to be playing. Even worse with the Majesty songs.
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Even worse with the Majesty songs.
AMEN.
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Even worse with the Majesty songs.
AMEN.
On this I can agree.
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While it seems that this thread has turned more to an expounding of the virtues--or lack thereof--of WDADU and FII, I want to return to the previous PN tour for a second. I live in Michigan, where DT has played on every tour since at least Awake (Octavarium was a squeeze-in and subsequent cancellation due to JLB having voice issues right before the MSG show). I have seen them every time, including right after my wife's c-section (yes, she went, too...the trooper!) And another when she was 8 mos preggo w/ our second kid (again, she went too!). On this tour, the closest they came was Chicago--4 hrs away. I didn't go, because I was SURE they'd come back to Detroit on the BCASL tour. I'm supremely disappointed and absolutely feel slighted after seeing them on 10 other tours. The whole PN thing is BS for their real fans who are paying good money to see THEM. If there is an economic issue, they brought it on themselves by not doing an evening with tour...or at least bringing PN to more cities.
As for WDADU, there were only ever a handful of decent tunes on it, kinda like Genesis "Nursery Cryme." Play one or two if everyone agrees, but Christ, it shouldn't cause hard feelings in the band.
As for FII...I thought it sucked from the moment I first heard it. It is the one clunker they've released. True, BCASL seems a bit rushed and/or stale, but FII has almost nothing redeeming to me. I'm fine w/ a hiatus...just so long as they DO come back, proggy as always!
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I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.
You let one song do that to you? I was as diehard as diehard gets when FII came out, and on my first run-through, I was completely knocked over enough by the keyboard intro to "Lines in the Sand" that I didn't even notice any "lesser" material. I was never that fond of "You Not Me," but most of the rest of the CD was more than good enough for me to overlook one hiccup (albeit, a big one).
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A couple of die-hards from back in the day have similar opinions as TAC, though. My old supervisor was big into DT, and came on board around Awake. He said that since the band had such a strong EP, ACoS, everyone he knew was worried that the band were falling off after the lackluster FII followed up along with the equally as unsatisfying OIALT.
When Scenes from a memory came out, he and a couple of his more optimistic buddies went out to buy it, and popped it into the car stereo. As soon as the acoustic guitar and "safe in the light that surrounds me..." kicked in, the feeling was unanimous that Dream Theater were done. And then Overture 1928 kicked in.
:hat
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I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.
You let one song do that to you? I was as diehard as diehard gets when FII came out, and on my first run-through, I was completely knocked over enough by the keyboard intro to "Lines in the Sand" that I didn't even notice any "lesser" material. I was never that fond of "You Not Me," but most of the rest of the CD was more than good enough for me to overlook one hiccup (albeit, a big one).
I also bought FII the day it came it, and I did not feel giant waves of disappointment. 'You Not Me' was never a problem at all; I always liked the song. I'll admit that listening to 'New Millennium,' I thought: well, this isn't exactly the opener I expected - but that's only cause I wanted something heavier. I still liked NM, and now I think it's one of their most 'proggy' openers, what with the chapman stick and all. But the clincher for me was 'Peruvian Skies.' Once I heard the second part of that song, I would have been completely satisfied if FII ended right there. Of course, it didn't, and I found a further distillation of awesome songs, TAMP being the only one I'm not super keen on. I don't know, for people who heard FII when it came out, their reaction is one thing, but for people who heard it later than that - I think the album gets negatively judged in light of all we know now about the circumstances surrounding it more than its actual content... but that's just my opinion.
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I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.
You let one song do that to you? I was as diehard as diehard gets when FII came out, and on my first run-through, I was completely knocked over enough by the keyboard intro to "Lines in the Sand" that I didn't even notice any "lesser" material. I was never that fond of "You Not Me," but most of the rest of the CD was more than good enough for me to overlook one hiccup (albeit, a big one).
I also bought FII the day it came it, and I did not feel giant waves of disappointment. 'You Not Me' was never a problem at all; I always liked the song. I'll admit that listening to 'New Millennium,' I thought: well, this isn't exactly the opener I expected - but that's only cause I wanted something heavier. I still liked NM, and now I think it's one of their most 'proggy' openers, what with the chapman stick and all. But the clincher for me was 'Peruvian Skies.' Once I heard the second part of that song, I would have been completely satisfied if FII ended right there. Of course, it didn't, and I found a further distillation of awesome songs, TAMP being the only one I'm not super keen on. I don't know, for people who heard FII when it came out, their reaction is one thing, but for people who heard it later than that - I think the album gets negatively judged in light of all we know now about the circumstances surrounding it more than its actual content... but that's just my opinion.
The bolded part gets mentioned quite a lot in FII threads around here, and let me re-iterate AGAIN that I don't like the MUSIC on it; I couldn't care LESS what MP thinks about it. I don't research to find out what bandmembers say about a certain release before making my own personal judgement on it. I'm sure many other FII detractors would say the exact same thing, but it seems like we're farting in a hurricane . . .
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I think the album gets negatively judged in light of all we know now about the circumstances surrounding it more than its actual content... but that's just my opinion.
Maybe. But I bought it long before I knew anything about the circumstances surrounding it, and I did not like it at all at first. And although I have since learned to appreciate it over the years, I have never liked YNM. For those that do, that's great. But I have never thought it was even a decent song.
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I think the album gets negatively judged in light of all we know now about the circumstances surrounding it more than its actual content... but that's just my opinion.
Maybe. But I bought it long before I knew anything about the circumstances surrounding it, and I did not like it at all at first. And although I have since learned to appreciate it over the years, I have never liked YNM. For those that do, that's great. But I have never thought it was even a decent song.
I would agree with that quoted bit from contest_sanity regarding FII. It has always been my belief that had MP not slagged the shit out of the record and how it was made, that fans would not be so down about the album. Notice that JP, JLB, JM, and DS don't do that. They are proud of the album. Everyone here that does slag it is sure to say "wait, no, MP's opinion has nothing to do with what I think." Yeah, right.
The album was expertly conceived and is balanced with the right amount of singles and the right amount of progressive numbers. And most importantly, the music BREATHES and the production is top-notch. DT's best produced and engineered album (IMO). As I always have said, FII is Dream Theater's version of Queensryche's Empire. It takes the band's complex sound and maintains its integrity, but at the same time branches out and attempts to capture mainstream fans a bit more.
And at least on Long Island, it worked. "You Not Me" was on constant heavy rotation when the record came out. All time slots. It was also promoted like crazy in the local record stores, both independent and chains.
Say what you want about "You Not Me," but frankly, as a fan of Dream Theater, I think the final version on the album is a lot more consistent than the demo. The demo's chorus was clunky and the song didn't flow as well as the final version does. It's a matter of taste, absolutely. But as a constructed song, it works and works well.
That was DC's job when he worked with JP to re-write it. And it did the tune a world of good for what they were trying to accomplish with it (a radio single).
I'm not a fan of outside writers at all...but the changes made to that song made it go a big step up in this fan's opinion (although I do like the Queensryche-esqe news reel audio in the beginning of the demo version...which makes an appearance at the end of "You Not Me" if you listen closely).
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Samsara, most of the people here who are outspoken about their dislike of FII are longtime fans who never liked it. MP's opinions on it are irrelevant, because most of us didn't even know them until years after the album's release. Most newer fans actually like the album.
And while you might think that YNM is a well-written radio single, the fact is that DT doesn't DO radio singles. The album, notwithstanding some awesome tracks like Lines In The Sand or Trial of Tears, is too much of a departure from what the essence of DT is. I disagree strongly that the album was expertly conceived.
However, you are 100% right about the production - it is the best of any DT album.
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Samsara, most of the people here who are outspoken about their dislike of FII are longtime fans who never liked it. MP's opinions on it are irrelevant, because most of us didn't even know them until years after the album's release. Most newer fans actually like the album.
And while you might think that YNM is a well-written radio single, the fact is that DT doesn't DO radio singles. The album, notwithstanding some awesome tracks like Lines In The Sand or Trial of Tears, is too much of a departure from what the essence of DT is. I disagree strongly that the album was expertly conceived.
All of this. Again, for me, I had no idea what Mike thought about the album until YEARS after I bought it. When I first got it, I did not like it. It was too hit-and-miss from song to song, and it took me a while to get into--probably longer than any other DT album other than WDADU. That has nothing to do with Mike. It has to do with the fact that it sounded different than I&W, Awake, ACOS, and SFAM (yes, I bought FII after SFAM). I now appreciate it as a strong album, but it definitely took some getting used to.
And as for YNM, you're certainly entitled to your opinion that the final product is better than the demo (I slightly prefer the demo, but not by a whole lot), to me the issue isn't whether DC was able to transform it into a radio-friendly song. The problem is that what he had to work with wasn't very good, and what he transformed it into STILL wasn't very good. Maybe it did get some radio play, and maybe that did briefly expose DT to a bigger audience. But the fact remains to me that it still is just a bad song.
I still have to stick by my assessment of that entire FII situation. Some of what happened was good for the album. A lot of it was not. Overall, although it was a tough period for the band, I think it was good for them in the long run. And now that we have both the album and the complete set of the demos in an official format, we the fans have the best of both. Most fans, at least fans that post on these forums, would do something different if they were making their own version of FII, and I've noticed that most of it includes a mix of the album tracks and the demo tracks. But what is also interesting to me is that there isn't a single unified consensus about what final track selection would be the best. Hey, it's in the history books. We got a ton of good songs out of it and the band is still kicking. So in my opinion, there's no sense grousing about it one way or the other.
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I think it is important to remember that if the current production team was in charge of DT at the time of FII, we likely wouldn't have gotten Scenes from a Memory as is (FACT), not to mention most of the demo versions aren't as good as the final versions that made FII (OPINION), so, ponder that for a bit, folks. :)
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I think it is important to remember that if the current production team was in charge of DT at the time of FII, we likely wouldn't have gotten Scenes from a Memory as is (FACT), not to mention most of the demo versions aren't as good as the final versions that made FII (OPINION), so, ponder that for a bit, folks. :)
Oh, I have considered that many times, which is why I am glad they went through all of that, regardless of my personal opinion of FII as a standalone project.
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I didn't start listening to Dream Theater until around Train of Thought, and I remember pretty much everyone I know telling me to avoid Falling into Infinity at all costs. That includes people in real life and people online alike.
When I finally bought it a year or so alter, I was pleasantly surprised. The album is really not that bad. There's a couple clunkers which seem to be mostly during the first half of the album, but there's just as many classics.
I completely disagree about it being the best sounding. That album, to me, is lacking in all energy. The lighter songs and in-betweens like Trial of Tears sound good, but the heavier ones sound completely lifeless. I also can't stand the "hollow" drum sound that I hear on that album (as well as SC).
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My standard advice for years was (and still is, for that matter) not necessarily that people should avoid it, but that it not be near the first few albums people sample from the band. And I always include the caveat that it is more commercial sounding and different than their other albums, so newer fans should keep that in mind.
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Samsara, most of the people here who are outspoken about their dislike of FII are longtime fans who never liked it. MP's opinions on it are irrelevant, because most of us didn't even know them until years after the album's release. Most newer fans actually like the album.
That's a good point, Hef. But every time there is a discussion about FII, people bring up (on this board) MP's comments about it, and then throw in "yeah, I don't like it at all." MP's comments might not have what some folks based their negative opinions on, but they certainly reinforced the negative ones. Sorry, I just don't think most people have the strong-willed, independent judgment that guys such as you, bosk1 and myself have when it comes to music. You give people more credit than I do.
Interesting though, your comment on newer fans liking the album. How do you base that, just on observation of what is said here?
And while you might think that YNM is a well-written radio single, the fact is that DT doesn't DO radio singles. The album, notwithstanding some awesome tracks like Lines In The Sand or Trial of Tears, is too much of a departure from what the essence of DT is. I disagree strongly that the album was expertly conceived.
What makes you say DT doesn't DO radio singles? They did, for a long time. Pull Me Under? Another Day? Lie? You Not Me is the lead single from FII. DT doesn't really do singles ANY LONGER, which is the more appropriate term. But they absolutely USED TO.
And what are you talking about - "departure from what the essence of DT is." I think what you meant to say is "FII departs from what I BELIEVE the essence of DT is." Because surely, your view of what DT's music "is" doesn't stand up for everyone. Hate to split hairs, but that just really bothers me. If Dream Theater was a band that only wrote 10-15 minute songs with crazy Metropolis-esqe instrumentals in the middle and was a complete technical band, I wouldn't have been a fan. What DT's "essence" is, is frankly, up to the listener. Our personal definitions vary obviously, as to what that "is."
Back in the early days of the band (WDADU-FII), the "essence" of the band, IMO, was bringing a more progressive bent to traditional metal, taking what Fates and QR did to the next level...but maintaining a sense of strong structure, melody and cohesion in the songs. But as the band got more and more technical, the limits of structure and cohesion were pushed open to a point where they were almost forgotten, particularly the latter.
Sure, the band still has its moments, but if you define what the band's "essence" is NOW, I think it's very different than what it was through 1997.
However, you are 100% right about the production - it is the best of any DT album.
Glad you agree with the opinion. The sound is just flat out amazing. Really wish they'd hook up with Kevin Shirley again. I don't have my liner notes with me, but did he produce AND engineer? If not, whoever the engineer was deserves some big time credit.
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And what are you talking about - "departure from what the essence of DT is." I think what you meant to say is "FII departs from what I BELIEVE the essence of DT is." Because surely, your view of what DT's music "is" doesn't stand up for everyone. Hate to split hairs, but that just really bothers me. If Dream Theater was a band that only wrote 10-15 minute songs with crazy Metropolis-esqe instrumentals in the middle and was a complete technical band, I wouldn't have been a fan. What DT's "essence" is, is frankly, up to the listener. Our personal definitions vary obviously, as to what that "is."
But see, almost every song you listed was an afterthought or something done for the label. Even Pull Me Under. Granted, PMU was a pretty damn good move, the band have slowly realized that the singles don't help them. When Mike, John, and John used to meet and practice they had no intention whatsoever to write radio singles. Status Seeker was written per request of the label, and Pull Me Under after the label heard the initial demos and wanted more. The band kept going for another hit on each album until Scenes, when they realized that they already had a good fanbase and singles was never their main objective anyway. So I think it's pretty unfair to say that singles are part of the band's essence. They were important to establishing the band early on, but they're not what the band's ever been best at and they're not what's kept almost all the fans so satisfied for so long.
I know there's guys like you and some others who feel "left out" by the newer DT and I honestly feel for you. But the band started with progressive rock music. The singles changed that for awhile, but eventually they hit a wall and had to decide whether to side with the majority of fans who hated the newer direction or the couple that actually liked FII and their singles.
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Oh for crying out loud. We could say the exact same thing, that your contempt for modern DT is not your actual feeling but was 100% influenced by 5/8's opinions (or Orcus or Rumborak or whoever). Let me (us) repeat once again that we don't like FII BECAUSE WE FEEL MOST OF THE SONGS ARE BORING AND UNINSPIRED, not because MP said so. :facepalm:
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Oh for crying out loud. We could say the exact same thing, that your contempt for modern DT is not your actual feeling but was 100% influenced by 5/8's opinions (or Orcus or Rumborak or whoever). Let me (us) repeat once again that we don't like FII BECAUSE WE FEEL MOST OF THE SONGS ARE BORING AND UNINSPIRED, not because MP said so. :facepalm:
Calm down. Responses such as yours are what makes threads turn a bad direction. I don't have contempt for modern DT. I just don't care for the direction as much as I did the older material. I don't even know what a "5/8" is, so not sure what you're talking about.
If you don't like FII because of those reasons, fine. But I will always believe had MP kept his mouth shut, there wouldn't be nearly as much criticism of FII as there is.
PC - good point, but by default, the singles are a part of DT. They were written and released by the band as pieces of work that are part of the album. And when you say "the band" who are you talking about? Because as we discussed, JP does indeed like mainstream stuff, both as a fan and as a writer/artist...are you saying it's mostly MP that doesn't like single-oriented songs? Because in that case, I'd agree with you. As a writer/artist, MP would never want to write a five-minute single. JP, JM, or JLB on the other hand...
So in a nutshell, like it or not, singles are a part of DT. Even if not a main objective, they were always part of the plan for the album. They just weren't the band's emphasis when writing, until they were requested to...and they did it very, very well.
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Well, you're right. The band haven't completely given up on singles. There's Forsaken, A Rite of Passage, and Wither, which all had high-budget videos and, like those songs or not, definitely increased the popularity of the band. Nowadays most people just search band's videos on Youtube, so I can show a friend of mine who likes anime or vampires the Forsaken video, he's likely to think it's pretty cool and will want to learn more about the band.
So, yeah, I think the band have turned back to writing singles because they don't have to rely on television and radio to get those singles "out there" anymore. Just like file-sharing likely helped people get into Dream Theater, whose albums were sometimes too obscure to find in stores like Best Buy, the ability to get videos out there to audiences who can watch them quickly and easily on Youtube helps in the same kind of way.
Too much emphasis on singles is likely what turned the band away from them for three albums. Then, it was a matter of survival. Now that the band's back on its feet and can write one or two singles per album, which will be heard on Youtube and the RR site by unfamiliar audiences, they don't have to make albums like FII anymore where half of the songs have to have "single potential" in hopes that the radio will like one of them. This way, they get their name and a quick representation of their sound out their while keeping most of the fans happy. That's the big difference between writing now and then. Back then, the band would have to write song after song geared towards appeasing the radio gods. Now, they know they can get whatever single they want out online and it'll get good play on youtube. So it's not a matter of writing single after single, it's a matter of finding ways to represent the band to new audiences. That's why they don't need to do an album like FII anymore and wouldn't.
Sooo yeah, I agree with you about singles being part of the band's essence. If it weren't for them continuing with singles after Train of Thought, I'd disagree. But the fact that they've been putting out strong singles on the last three albums and actually marketing them on the last two is proof that singles are an aspect of the band which needed to be revisited.
Now why were we talking about this again? ;D
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Now why were we talking about this again? ;D
No idea. I think I'll retire from the thread. lol
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Now why were we talking about this again? ;D
No idea. I think I'll retire from the thread. lol
Good idea. Well, that was fun. Now I should actually do work in the office.
:hat
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[snip]
Moved my post to a more appropriate thread, since I wasn't really on topic with your chat about writing singles. ;)
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"Solitary Shell" could be easily a single. Same for "These Walls", "I Walk beside you", "Through Her Eyes", "The Spirit Carries On", "As I Am"... they weren't hits. But they sure were in the vein for singles.
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I think it is what it is. The band goes pretty strong pumping out tunes and touring - I'm thinking it was in the works for them to take a break. So it was probably a "sooner vs later" issue that was capitalized on with the suggestion from the label.
And I must agree, more debate ala the MP vs KM on Awake and we ended up with a sonically bad ass album. Would love to see more of that and not so much challenge MP's creative directive but dare him to to step outside of his comfort zone (just as long as it stays away from 8VM). :o
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lol, I had a longish response to Samsara and then accidentally the whole thing.
I'm not re-typing.
Long story short: we disagree, but I love you anyway.
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Samsara, most of the people here who are outspoken about their dislike of FII are longtime fans who never liked it. MP's opinions on it are irrelevant, because most of us didn't even know them until years after the album's release. Most newer fans actually like the album.
And while you might think that YNM is a well-written radio single, the fact is that DT doesn't DO radio singles. The album, notwithstanding some awesome tracks like Lines In The Sand or Trial of Tears, is too much of a departure from what the essence of DT is. I disagree strongly that the album was expertly conceived.
All of this. Again, for me, I had no idea what Mike thought about the album until YEARS after I bought it. When I first got it, I did not like it. It was too hit-and-miss from song to song, and it took me a while to get into--probably longer than any other DT album other than WDADU. That has nothing to do with Mike. It has to do with the fact that it sounded different than I&W, Awake, ACOS, and SFAM (yes, I bought FII after SFAM). I now appreciate it as a strong album, but it definitely took some getting used to.
And as for YNM, you're certainly entitled to your opinion that the final product is better than the demo (I slightly prefer the demo, but not by a whole lot), to me the issue isn't whether DC was able to transform it into a radio-friendly song. The problem is that what he had to work with wasn't very good, and what he transformed it into STILL wasn't very good. Maybe it did get some radio play, and maybe that did briefly expose DT to a bigger audience. But the fact remains to me that it still is just a bad song.
I still have to stick by my assessment of that entire FII situation. Some of what happened was good for the album. A lot of it was not. Overall, although it was a tough period for the band, I think it was good for them in the long run. And now that we have both the album and the complete set of the demos in an official format, we the fans have the best of both. Most fans, at least fans that post on these forums, would do something different if they were making their own version of FII, and I've noticed that most of it includes a mix of the album tracks and the demo tracks. But what is also interesting to me is that there isn't a single unified consensus about what final track selection would be the best. Hey, it's in the history books. We got a ton of good songs out of it and the band is still kicking. So in my opinion, there's no sense grousing about it one way or the other.
Agree with all of this.
Because it is their best sounding album, it's easier to "go back" and listen to it, but as a current (at the time) fan of the band, this was a huge departure. Now, it's just a hiccup between Awake and Scenes.
But Sam, the Empire comparison is interesting..but Empire was far less of a departure from what Quuensryche were doing at the time. FII is better compared to Promised Land, because that was so far removed from (at least) my feelings of what QR stood for.
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I think it would be awesome if they had a break, did some side projects etc, and then cam out with a huge world tour BEFORE DOING ANOTHER ALBUM.
That way they aren't obliged to focus on any album so we can songs like ACOS and stuff played again.
Haven't thought of that, but it's a brilliant idea.
No, that's only for when a band breaks up. Then they get back together for a tour then maybe album.