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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: 2Timer on February 09, 2010, 04:07:44 PM
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I'm about halfway through Lifting Shadows (for the second time), and I have really been paying attention to how many problems they have had with producers, and it seems that the work that they did with Prater got pretty much the best reviews so far in my opinion as far as been 'crisp' and other adjectives that I can't remember right now. I think it would be interesting to hear what would happen if DT were to record all of their albums the way they want to, and then have Prater at the helm to record them his way. I know it'll never happen and I'm not suggesting that they do this, but wouldn't it be cool to hear all the differences there would be? I'd also like to see a picture of Prater before and after all the work was done, because I'm sure he'd have a lot more scars afterward. :)
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I&W sounds O.K. and has character despite its problems, but I think ACoS sounds like shit. So I hope Prater stays away from all future DT projects.
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I&W wouldn't really have the same feeling without the triggered drums. They give it that unique mood which everyone liked.
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The recordings on I&W are incredible, especially the guitars.
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I still think DT need a producer. However, they need a producer who understands their sound, not someone trying to make them fit a different mold.
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I still think DT need a producer. However, they need a producer who understands their sound, not someone trying to make them fit a different mold.
Adami is dead on. When Rush Got peter Collins to do Power Windows is gave a boost of energy into the band and the same could be said for Nick Raskulinecz producing S & A. Though I understand it might be a money issue for DT and that MP & JP want to be hands on also.
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Rather than bringing in a full-on producer, DT should bring in Steven Wilson for some informal suggestions. As most people here are probably aware, Wilson, in addition to being friends with MP, has done some great producing work (Opeth's "Damnation" album, for example), and really understands the importance of both mastering, and the actual sounds of the album. The last few Porcupine Tree albums have been fantastic in those regards (as well as also being great albums).
Other than that, I think BC&SL proved that DT don't really need any outside help.
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I still think DT need a producer. However, they need a producer who understands their sound, not someone trying to make them fit a different mold.
I don't think they need a producer...
But I can't see a world in which Paul Northfield co-producing the eleventh DT would be anything other than a brillant thing. I think he'd be a fantastic sixth member.
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I&W sounds O.K. and has character despite its problems, but I think ACoS sounds like shit. So I hope Prater stays away from all future DT projects.
This, although I really like IaW's production (although it is a bit lacking in some areas, it's very well recorded). ACOS is pretty rough sounding though. Also, I don't know how Prater's recordings sound now. A lot has changed in 15-20 years. Personally I'd love for them to bring back Kevin Shirley. FII and SDOIT, definitely two of their best sounding albums.
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Part of my problem with A Change of Seasons is similar to the problems I find myself having with the Fates Warning stuff. I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no reason why an album from 1995 should sound that way.
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I&W wouldn't really have the same feeling without the triggered drums. They give it that unique mood which everyone liked.
I agree. I love them too. I've also been listening to all of early-to-mid 1990's Rush this week and I noticed that they also used triggered drums around that time. I never really paid that close attention to it before reading Lifting Shadows, so it's been standing out to me now. It has a clean crisp sound. I like it.
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The triggered drum isn't my problem with Images And Words. It's that everything else, including the other drums, seem to get buried in the process.
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I'm a supporter of the triggered drums. Hearing Live in Tokyo often makes me wish they'd recorded the real drums, but the triggered drums have a distinctive sound that I consider part of the charm of the early 90s sound of IaW.
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Kevin Shirley is the (Cave)man
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I wouldn't mind DT having a producer be more involved in the process. The way I see it, with DT already writing and recording so quickly, they could use another fresh set of ears to refine the sound.
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Rather than bringing in a full-on producer, DT should bring in Steven Wilson for some informal suggestions. As most people here are probably aware, Wilson, in addition to being friends with MP, has done some great producing work (Opeth's "Damnation" album, for example), and really understands the importance of both mastering, and the actual sounds of the album.
I agree with this post, and to be honest I don't see an outside producer working any other way. We know that MP and JP like having their total control too much to allow someone else to produce in the way Prater did in the past.
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In terms of production, nothing beats this album.
AWAKE
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In terms of production, nothing beats this album.
AWAKE
Awake is one of the best sounding albums I've ever heard. And I'm a big Porcupine Tree fan. I think that says alot.
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I still think DT need a producer. However, they need a producer who understands their sound, not someone trying to make them fit a different mold.
I agree. Northfield does understand them, but frankly, I don't think MP and JP allow him any control. Sure, they allow him to give input, but I seriously doubt JP and MP will do anything they disagree with. It's a trust issue.
Frankly, I always thought Jimbo Barton (Queensryche's Empire, Fates Warning's Parallels, Saraya's When the Blackbird Sings) would be perfect for DT, sound-wise.
But DT has Northfield, and if they aren't getting a great sound with him, then I am starting to think it's not the producers, but the band not allowing an engineer/producer to make decisions, just allowing them input.
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In terms of production, nothing beats this album.
AWAKE
What? It´s the most sterile sounding album I´ve heard from them.
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When I say a producer, I'm not even talking about sound quality issues. I think they're doing pretty good with that. I'm talking about a 3rd party person who can point out things about their songs that DT are too close to notice. Someone who can say "ok guys, this section clearly has nothing to do with the rest of the song" or "Hey, JR why don't you try a less synthy approach" or "hey jlb, put down the shovel and sing" and so forth.
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Jeesh, Today I learned that ACOS didn't sound good. Do you guys really think that?
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When I say a producer, I'm not even talking about sound quality issues. I think they're doing pretty good with that. I'm talking about a 3rd party person who can point out things about their songs that DT are too close to notice. Someone who can say "ok guys, this section clearly has nothing to do with the rest of the song" or "Hey, JR why don't you try a less synthy approach" or "hey jlb, put down the shovel and sing" and so forth.
Ok. Fully agreed then. Been saying that forever, myself. But it's the same problem I mentioned earlier. Trust. Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do. THey allow input, but at the end of the day, they aren't going to trust someone else's opinion to do something that may run counter to their comfort zones.
I FULLY agree with you, Adami, I just don't think, based on what happened in the past with MP and producers, and why he almost quit the band, that we'll ever see that sort thing happen. Total control was what MP wanted to stay in DT. He got it. He's never giving it up when it comes to those things.
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I dunno. I like having total control of my songs as well. But sometimes having someone point things out to me that I didn't notice is helpful.
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I dunno. I like having total control of my songs as well. But sometimes having someone point things out to me that I didn't notice is helpful.
Well yeah, who wouldn't? But at the end of the day, as I have learned, someone always knows something better than you do. I'm a writer, and a damn good one. But I'd be a fool if I didn't let an editor look at my stuff and make changes to it. As long as the changes make sense and make it a better product, I'm completely ok with it.
The Tesla story I just wrote and published. One of my staff folks looked it over, tweaked two of my paragraphs (sentence changes) and removed another one. Could my original have been published as it was? Certainly. But did the changes made make sense and make it a better story? Yes. So I put my ego aside and let those changes be made, even if I might think what I wrote initially was just fine.
And I also do that (be an editor) for the same guy, and re-write sections and re-order his work from time to time as it is necessary. I pass it back to him, and 99 percent of the time, he signs off on it...even though I may have made a significant change. It's called trust in someone else to help something good, get better. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you have to take those chances.
That's what Mike Portnoy can't do. He felt he got burned so badly, that now he can't let anyone do anything to DT's music that he doesn't necessarily agree with...even if the person suggesting the changes knows what they are talking about.
now, I'm not saying I KNOW what goes on behind the scenes. Of course I don't.
All I DO know is, given all the comments I have read from Mike over the past decade, I feel he doesn't trust anyone to make decisions on the band's work, other than himself and JP. People can give input, but he doesn't trust anyone enough to go against his own vision once in awhile, and try something that may be a little different. And that all stems from the bad experiences of years ago, and his own ego.
MP does a ton of great things, and I have a lot of respect for how much he gives to fans. But like anyone, he has some failings, and his (in my opinion) unwillingness to let go of some of that creative control and decision making is making Dream Theater really one-dimensional and stale.
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I'm a supporter of the triggered drums. Hearing Live in Tokyo often makes me wish they'd recorded the real drums, but the triggered drums have a distinctive sound that I consider part of the charm of the early 90s sound of IaW.
My friend who is a drummer can not stand the tiggered sound. He told me that you miss all the little nuances that a drummer does like shadowing.
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I dunno. I like having total control of my songs as well. But sometimes having someone point things out to me that I didn't notice is helpful.
Well yeah, who wouldn't? But at the end of the day, as I have learned, someone always knows something better than you do. I'm a writer, and a damn good one. But I'd be a fool if I didn't let an editor look at my stuff and make changes to it. As long as the changes make sense and make it a better product, I'm completely ok with it.
The Tesla story I just wrote and published. One of my staff folks looked it over, tweaked two of my paragraphs (sentence changes) and removed another one. Could my original have been published as it was? Certainly. But did the changes made make sense and make it a better story? Yes. So I put my ego aside and let those changes be made, even if I might think what I wrote initially was just fine.
And I also do that (be an editor) for the same guy, and complete re-write and re-order his work from time to time as it is necessary. I pass it back to him, and 99 percent of the time, he signs off on it...even though I may have made a significant change. It's called trust in someone else to help something good, get better. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you have to take those chances.
That's what Mike Portnoy can't do. He felt he got burned so badly, that now he can't let anyone do anything to DT's music that he doesn't necessarily agree with...even if the person suggesting the changes knows what they are talking about.
now, I'm not saying I KNOW what goes on behind the scenes. Of course I don't.
All I DO know is, given all the comments I have read from Mike over the past decade, I feel he doesn't trust anyone to make decisions on the band's work, other than himself and JP. People can give input, but he doesn't trust anyone enough to go against his own vision once in awhile, and try something that may be a little different. And that all stems from the bad experiences of years ago, and his own ego.
MP does a ton of great things, and I have a lot of respect for how much he gives to fans. But like anyone, he has some failings, and his (in my opinion) unwillingness to let go of some of that creative control and decision making is making Dream Theater really one-dimensional and stale.
Excellent points. I personally love having people edit my stuff because the extra set of eyes/ears/whatever always ends up making it better. But even if they refuse to have producers I just really wish DT would make a song and let it sit for awhile before recording it to see if it actually sounds good. Hell why not debut songs live like bands used to do and gauge the reactions? Aging is partially what made the songs on Images and Words so great and while they might get lucky nowadays and catch lightning in a bottle on the first try there seems to be more and more lost potential with each album.
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I don't know, the band are doing pretty good self-produced. Especially now that they have an outside guy working on producing the vocals. Still, it would have been nice if there "Dark Masterx8" got edited out.
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I'm a supporter of the triggered drums. Hearing Live in Tokyo often makes me wish they'd recorded the real drums, but the triggered drums have a distinctive sound that I consider part of the charm of the early 90s sound of IaW.
My friend who is a drummer can not stand the tiggered sound. He told me that you miss all the little nuances that a drummer does like shadowing.
Yeah, but no one except drummers actually care about nuances.
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In terms of production, nothing beats this album.
AWAKE
What? It´s the most sterile sounding album I´ve heard from them.
THANK YOU. It's not a bad sounding album by any stretch, but definitely plain and lifeless compared to their others. Everything is flat sounding, which is a shame considering that the album before and after are possibly their most lively and energetic sounding recordings.
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I just don't get how you can think Awake sounds sterile. To me, it sounds alive.
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To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.
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Awake sounds awesome. Except for The Mirror and Lie, which just sound bland.
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To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.
I agree that Awake could have more snap, but calling it sterile and/or lifeless just isn't fair. There's FX on everything to make it blend into the sound in a very specific way.
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To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.
I agree that Awake could have more snap, but calling it sterile and/or lifeless just isn't fair. There's FX on everything to make it blend into the sound in a very specific way.
To me it really is a lifeless sounding album. It's a very well recorded album, but for me all of that reverb just makes it fade into the distance rather than anything feeling upfront and have any presence. Nothing has any kick.
And this is coming from someone whose favourite sounding albums are all from that era too.
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Awake needs some SC level of compression. That's the main problem.
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lol I'm not sure if that was a dig at me, or just at SC's mastering, but that's exactly why I pointed out that all of my favourite albums are from the same era as Awake (probably a few years earlier), so for me it's nothing to do with mastering. That's about the one thing in Awake's favour in terms of production.
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Nah I was just comparing extremes. I do see what you mean about the reverb but it doesn't bother me as much.
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Just personal preference. It's not that it bothers me either. To call Awake's production anywhere near bad is a stretch, but I don't think it's a standout compared to some of their other albums. They have worse sounding albums, but they also have enough better ones.
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To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.
I agree that Awake could have more snap, but calling it sterile and/or lifeless just isn't fair. There's FX on everything to make it blend into the sound in a very specific way.
To me it really is a lifeless sounding album. It's a very well recorded album, but for me all of that reverb just makes it fade into the distance rather than anything feeling upfront and have any presence. Nothing has any kick.
And this is coming from someone whose favourite sounding albums are all from that era too.
I like that feeling though. Awake is an album about personal turmoil and Scarred emotions. While on one level the emotions are very energetic and enrapturing, trying to give it a more warm quality like I&W would be a huge mistake. The music should feel very cold and distant.
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To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.
I agree that Awake could have more snap, but calling it sterile and/or lifeless just isn't fair. There's FX on everything to make it blend into the sound in a very specific way.
To me it really is a lifeless sounding album. It's a very well recorded album, but for me all of that reverb just makes it fade into the distance rather than anything feeling upfront and have any presence. Nothing has any kick.
And this is coming from someone whose favourite sounding albums are all from that era too.
I like that feeling though. Awake is an album about personal turmoil and Scarred emotions. While on one level the emotions are very energetic and enrapturing, trying to give it a more warm quality like I&W would be a huge mistake. The music should feel very cold and distant.
Isn't cold and distant just a roundabout way of saying sterile though? I mean, if that was their decision to make it sound like that to fit the music, then that's their artistic decision, and that's ok, but to me it detracts from the album. But then again, to me the entire mood is something I don't like, and one of the reasons I don't like the album anyway, so I guess all of my biases of the album go hand in hand there.
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On a PC or an iPod, I can almost (but not quite :p) see why one would think Awake doesn't sound as good as some of their other albums, but on a good stereo system, it sounds nothing short of fantastic. I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago, and he played me a few songs from different albums on his newest system (he prides himself on getting THE best stuff, and he usually does), and the songs he played from Awake sounded magnificent. It is just a terrific-sounding CD all-around; you just need to listen to it on a really good system to hear its total quality.
And, honestly, from a "sound" standpoint, I would have to question the ears of anyone who listens to WDADU, SFAM and OV on a really good system and thinks any of those "sound" nearly as good as Awake or FII, for example. It really isn't close.
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Agreed with Kev, Awake on a music player that is good makes it come alive. Otherwise, it does feel flat. Then again, maybe that's a technological transition issue. Music back then was meant to be heard on stereos and such, usually.
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On a PC or an iPod, I can almost (but not quite ) see why one would think Awake doesn't sound as good as some of their other albums, but on a good stereo system, it sounds nothing short of fantastic.
Definitely! It seems to me like most music made nowadays is meant to be played right in your ear, or as loud as possible. Albums like "Awake" or Fates Warning's "Parallels" have way different feels, and are definitely the kind of albums that aren't meant to be listened to on MP3 players like most newer albums are. I definitely hear you on this. But I disagree about Octavarium. That album sounds unique and amazing no matter how it's listened to...
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On a PC or an iPod, I can almost (but not quite :p) see why one would think Awake doesn't sound as good as some of their other albums, but on a good stereo system, it sounds nothing short of fantastic. I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago, and he played me a few songs from different albums on his newest system (he prides himself on getting THE best stuff, and he usually does), and the songs he played from Awake sounded magnificent. It is just a terrific-sounding CD all-around; you just need to listen to it on a really good system to hear its total quality.
And, honestly, from a "sound" standpoint, I would have to question the ears of anyone who listens to WDADU, SFAM and OV on a really good system and thinks any of those "sound" nearly as good as Awake or FII, for example. It really isn't close.
I have all of my DT in lossless with an expensive set of headphones running through a high quality soundcard, and it still sounds completely flat and lifeless. It's a flood of reverb. FII, IaW, SDOIT all sound miles better than Awake.
SFAM is definitely a rougher sounding album, but it sounds a lot more lively and energetic. Octavarium is not at all a bad sounding album, although it doesn't have a lot of character. And obviously WDADU is a lot worse. I'd say that Awake sits about middle of the road for DT albums. As I said, DT have worse sounding albums, but they still have several much better sounding ones, and Awake is no standout.
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My favorite album (both by sound and the music contained in it) is 6DOIT. It sounds so rich and I can hear every instrument so clear and crisp (yes, even the bass).
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Isn't cold and distant just a roundabout way of saying sterile though?
I don't see it that way. Systematic Chaos is an album that strikes me as sterile. I've listened to the album itself and the stems from the surround mix over and over again, and from a production standpoint there's just nothing there except compression and some drum reverb. There's just nothing. I don't even necessarily mind it, but SC is a very sterile album.
Whereas with Awake, the productin decisions feel very conscious. The hats are all sparkle with no warms. Even the distorted guitars have some reverb on them to add to the metallic and distant quality. The snare has tons of reverb to git the sound a crazy twist and pull it away from the listener. The vocals have very lush and standard production in order to anchor the found for the listener at its emotional focal point. (The same can be said for the kick drum in providing a rhythmic anchor). It's a mix with a lot going on, kinda the opposite of sterile, no?
I mean, if that was their decision to make it sound like that to fit the music, then that's their artistic decision, and that's ok, but to me it detracts from the album. But then again, to me the entire mood is something I don't like, and one of the reasons I don't like the album anyway, so I guess all of my biases of the album go hand in hand there.
Pretty much.
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Isn't cold and distant just a roundabout way of saying sterile though?
I don't see it that way. Systematic Chaos is an album that strikes me as sterile. I've listened to the album itself and the stems from the surround mix over and over again, and from a production standpoint there's just nothing there except compression and some drum reverb. There's just nothing. I don't even necessarily mind it, but SC is a very sterile album.
Whereas with Awake, the productin decisions feel very conscious. The hats are all sparkle with no warms. Even the distorted guitars have some reverb on them to add to the metallic and distant quality. The snare has tons of reverb to git the sound a crazy twist and pull it away from the listener. The vocals have very lush and standard production in order to anchor the found for the listener at its emotional focal point. (The same can be said for the kick drum in providing a rhythmic anchor). It's a mix with a lot going on, kinda the opposite of sterile, no?
I mean, if that was their decision to make it sound like that to fit the music, then that's their artistic decision, and that's ok, but to me it detracts from the album. But then again, to me the entire mood is something I don't like, and one of the reasons I don't like the album anyway, so I guess all of my biases of the album go hand in hand there.
Pretty much.
Systematic Chaos mainly sounds sterile from being too dry and overcompressed, but under that you can still hear a lot of energy, which I don't hear on Awake. So it's as bad as Awake for the exact opposite reason. And yet with all of that dynamic range, Awake doesn't do a lot with it because of being too wet.
Awake's vocals sound great with the reverb, but when you dial it up on everything, it takes the punch out of it, which doesn't work well for the guitars and drums. For an album featuring quadruple tracked guitars, the guitars don't cut through all that well, and the kick and snare don't have a lot of punch either. I'll definitely give you that the cymbals sound great though. SC's cymbals and hats are just mixed way too low and don't have much presence. Awake has a much better drum mix, and a good sound, but the reverb takes the edge off everything for me.
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My favorite album (both by sound and the music contained in it) is 6DOIT. It sounds so rich and I can hear every instrument so clear and crisp (yes, even the bass).
Really? What Blob said about Awake is kind of the way I feel about SDOIT and Octavarium. I can't describe it (and I'm sure I don't have the musician's ear that most of you probably do), but these albums sound a little shallow and flat or something.
ToT doesn't sound great either, but I assume that's because of the metal edge they were going for. SC of course is the usual bad production goat, but I don't think it's any worse than any of the others I've mentioned, albeit for different reasons.
-J
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Without judging the production quality of the respective albums in terms of being "lifeless" or not, I think that the drums (or rather the sound of them) play a big role when it comes to create a certain sonic atmosphere. Of course, all the other instruments do that as well, but not quite to the extent as the drums. This particularly shows in how distinctive the drums sound on the respective DT albums.
Nowadays, the common production doesn't allow such a distinctive atmosphere anymore, for reasons we all know (see SC, Death Magnetic or Dance Of Death).
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My favorite album (both by sound and the music contained in it) is 6DOIT. It sounds so rich and I can hear every instrument so clear and crisp (yes, even the bass).
Really? What Blob said about Awake is kind of the way I feel about SDOIT and Octavarium. I can't describe it (and I'm sure I don't have the musician's ear that most of you probably do), but these albums sound a little shallow and flat or something.
ToT doesn't sound great either, but I assume that's because of the metal edge they were going for. SC of course is the usual bad production goat, but I don't think it's any worse than any of the others I've mentioned, albeit for different reasons.
-J
The main problem with SDoiT is the snare sound, other than that I really like the depth of the production. Something like the awesome first 2 minutes of Misunderstood would never have worked as well without that depth. ToT is my 2nd least favorite production after WDaDU.
In response to TAC's post - no, I don't think ACOS sounds bad at all. I'm on the side of the fence that loves that snare sound.
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On a PC or an iPod, I can almost (but not quite :p) see why one would think Awake doesn't sound as good as some of their other albums, but on a good stereo system, it sounds nothing short of fantastic. I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago, and he played me a few songs from different albums on his newest system (he prides himself on getting THE best stuff, and he usually does), and the songs he played from Awake sounded magnificent. It is just a terrific-sounding CD all-around; you just need to listen to it on a really good system to hear its total quality.
And, honestly, from a "sound" standpoint, I would have to question the ears of anyone who listens to WDADU, SFAM and OV on a really good system and thinks any of those "sound" nearly as good as Awake or FII, for example. It really isn't close.
Have you heard Awake on vinyl? Now that is magnificent.
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I agree that Awake is their best sounding album, especially the because of the drum. The bass drum sounds amazing.
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I think that Falling Into Infinity is their best sounding album in terms of sound production. The 'space' in the production is amazing. Some great reverbs at work there. Although the snare drum is an acquired taste. I personally like it.
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Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.
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Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.
Oh yeah. It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.
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Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.
Oh yeah. It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.
But you can direct what the players do or don't do. Mike has been described (self-described, and by others in the band) as "creative director" of sorts for the band. That means a lot of things, but it also means he shapes the overall scope of what they are doing.
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Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.
Oh yeah. It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.
But you can direct what the players do or don't do. Mike has been described (self-described, and by others in the band) as "creative director" of sorts for the band. That means a lot of things, but it also means he shapes the overall scope of what they are doing.
I'd be very surprised if Mike's "creative directing" went beyond him saying things like "play something heavy here," or "I don't like that, play something else." I can't imagine Mike having more influence over the actual music that John or Jordan in any scenario.
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That's probably true. I do think Mike is easily impressed, though, and has this thing where anything that comes out of John and Jordans fingers is instant gold. Might not be true but I have a strong feeling that that's the case. There's also the problem with going for the 'best of the worst' or however you wanna call it, especially if you look at how they handled Mike's vocal section in Nightmare. That's a terrible way of constructing a song where you have 4 options ranging from meh to suck and can't even bother thinking that maybe you might have to go with option 5 which is rewrite the whole thing.
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I believe they with option 1 which was "don't listen to what some random guy on the internet says, and write music how they want it"
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How constructive.
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Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.
Oh yeah. It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.
But you can direct what the players do or don't do. Mike has been described (self-described, and by others in the band) as "creative director" of sorts for the band. That means a lot of things, but it also means he shapes the overall scope of what they are doing.
I'd be very surprised if Mike's "creative directing" went beyond him saying things like "play something heavy here," or "I don't like that, play something else." I can't imagine Mike having more influence over the actual music that John or Jordan in any scenario.
I never said either way how involved it would be. But telling a player "do this here," "go with a heavy part here," or even "I don't like that, do something else" is a significant part of creating music. Things get tossed aside that may be good, and things get used that perhaps aren't all that good.
I think all I was saying, overall, is that what happened to DT with FII ended any hope of MP ever allowing someone else to do something to DT's music that he doesn't approve of. Meaning, he won't work outside of his own box. And that is part of the reason (not the entire) that some people have said DT music is getting stale and sorta samey-sounding.
I'd love for MP to just say "ok, I have a producer in mind that I really like, and this album, I am doing NOTHING but playing the drums to what John, Jordan and JP come up with," and just wing it a bit. I'm not saying Dream Theater should allow a producer to turn them into a pop band (i.e. - Megadeth with Risk). What I'm saying is, a heavy hand even for a band leader, isn't always good. Sometimes, it's nice to just let things flow and see where it takes you. You might discover something you never even thought of before.
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Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.
Okay, the thought/mental image of two Portnoy's in the studio working on something is both awesome and hilarious. Especially if both are in high energy/super excitable mode at the same time.
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I never said either way how involved it would be. But telling a player "do this here," "go with a heavy part here," or even "I don't like that, do something else" is a significant part of creating music. Things get tossed aside that may be good, and things get used that perhaps aren't all that good.
I'm sure Mike does a good bit of rejecting, but again, I think his role in the band is definitely overstated. While he pretty much is the "creative manager" of the band, I think it's pretty much safe to say that both Black Clouds and Systematic Chaos were moreso the creation of Petrucci. Petrucci writes at least half of the music (I'd say that's a conservative estimate given amount of solo sections), as well as 8 of the last 13 lyrics (compare that to Mike's 3). So that means John's written the greater part of both of the last album's music and vocal melodies.
Though I've seen videos of Mike messing around with guitars, I doubt he has the skill to actually write the band's music. Going just by what we know about how they write, I think it's safe to say that John and Jordan write most of the music, and Mike acts as the producer from behind the kit (moreso than some Daniel Gildenlow type creative dictator). Mike (and John, to a lesser extent) is basically is the guy responsible for telling the other guys whether he likes what they're doing or not, and suggesting they add or take out or move around certain sections around. We might question Mike's decisions, but I'm not sure I think the results would be any better with someone other than a band member filling in as producer.
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Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.
Oh yeah. It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.
But you can direct what the players do or don't do. Mike has been described (self-described, and by others in the band) as "creative director" of sorts for the band. That means a lot of things, but it also means he shapes the overall scope of what they are doing.
Exactly.
And can I point out that you wrote MP and Portnoy instead of JP and Portnoy, hence my joke ;)
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:facepalm:
I totally didn't catch that.
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:facepalm:
I totally didn't catch that.
See? That's why you needed a producer.
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:facepalm:
I totally didn't catch that.
See? That's why you needed a producer.
:hat
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:facepalm:
I totally didn't catch that.
See? That's why you needed a producer.
I love you.