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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Samsara on February 05, 2010, 09:23:00 AM
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Ok, so for those of you that know me, you know I'm a hardcore Queensryche fan. When I say "Queensryche" I mean the original ilneup of Geoff Tate, Chris DeGarmo, Mike Wilton, Ed Jackson, and Scott Rockenfield. Everything from the EP through Hear in the Now Frontier, and Tribe (with the exception of one song that is written and performed by a fill in guitarist). I have a site online that documents the original lineup and remembers everything about them, from all the tour dates know from them, to all the releases, magazine articles, etc. - www.anybodylistening.net. Consider it THE AUTHORITY on the original lineup of Queensryche. over the years, I amassed the largest live collection of the original lineup as well (absolutely the most live audio recordings and one of the biggest video/DVD recordings collection). So suffice it to say, I'm hardcore when it comes to the REAL Queensryche.
That said, I was still supportive of the music of the non-original QR lineups. Not as good, but some good songs that I just plain enjoyed. It wasn't the same band, and I didn't recognize it as the same band, but any music listener could listen to Q2k, Mindcrime II and American Soldier and find some good music on there, whoever is in the band, be damned. The band's idiotic manager and stupid family-affair lineups and involvement pushed me more and more toward being disgusted, angered and disappointed by the band.
But I've had it now. They've just gone too far. They did a "Cabaret-style" show using strippers, go-go dancers, etc., last night and tonight at Snoqualmie Casino, outside of Seattle.
Suffice it to say, Tate and Rockenfield's wives were "dancers" on stage. Truth be told, they both were strippers before marrying Tate and Rockenfield, btu come on now. Just COME. ON.
Any of you old school Ryche fans remember how classy the band was back in the day, with the original lineup? How intelligent, dramatic (without being melodramatic like Tate is now), and just plain cool the music was?
What the f*ck, man. Someone PLEASE, PLEASE end this band now.
Check out the "preview" of the Cabaret bullsh*t on AnybodyListening.net's forum:
https://www.anybodylistening.net/breakdownroom/index.php?topic=1755
This is just an in-studio acoustic thing, but there are three "go-go dancers" in there too. And Miranda is Geoff Tate's daughter. Lovely. Lovely discussion of dildos as well.
We all have bands we admire and consider "our" band. For many here, I'm sure you (with compliments intended) consider Dream Theater "your" band and promote them in every way possible. Well, the original QUEENSRYCHE (the DeGarmo-led band) was MY band, and man, I am just embarrassed they let things get this far.
The Tates should be fired. Immediately. This is just pathetic. I am ready to puke when I see the YouTube vids of last nights' debut "cabaret" performance show up.
/rant.
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That sucks. For me, Queensryche ended after Empire though. But I can related about a certain band being MY band. Surely I havent been following Iced Earth nearly as long as you have Queensryche, but I was very dedicated to the band. Unfortunately the last couple albums have been a bit lacking and Jon Schaffer has gone batty. I feel your pain.
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I never liked Queensryche much. Especially their post-Empire work.
Stripper shows, however, are a new low. Funny to me, but embarrassing to enthusiasts, and it all but guarantees no one takes them seriously anymore.
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I agree. Whatever happened to the "thinking man's band" that was QR.
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:|
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I feel for you man, I wouldn't wish it upon a hardcore fan to see their bands name go down like that, I know it'd depress the hell out of me.
The fact that you openly admit to that decline is wrothy of respect, if it was my band I'd work mircales to make this seem less embaressing or more justified.
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I agree. Whatever happened to the "thinking man's band" that was QR.
They always hated that moniker, but appreciated the sentiment behind it. Unfortunately, the days of the band being spoken about in those glowing terms are LONG over. Tribe had some of it, particularly with the inspired lyrics and DeGarmo's interesting stuff mixed with the other guys', but overall, that title's been dead a long time.
Metty - thanks man. What a pathetic group they have become. And honestly, while it is mostly management's fault (Susan Tate) the rest of the guys signed on to do it, so they are equally to blame. Money-grubbing morons.
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I fail to see how that will increase their sales :huh:
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I forgot about this.
I have mixed feelings about when a band deviates from what I consider to be their ‘appropriate’ line-up. I don’t know how I feel about Pete and Roger playing the SB halftime show as ‘The Who’ since to me, The Who are Pete, Roger, John, and Keith. But if they say they are The Who, who am I to say otherwise? I know sometimes a band member will die, and the others want to continue, as a way of tribute, or because they don’t know what else to do. But it can make identifying with them as a band harder.
Re: Queensryche. Queensryche is an odd band to me. I got in to their music pretty late, but now happily own EP-HitNF. For as much as I like their music, I’ve never really been able to identify with the band, if that makes sense. Other bands I like a lot, I feel like I know, to some extent, but wouldn’t recognize any member of QR if they walked up to me, let alone do I know anything about them outside their music.
Mildly off-topic, Samsara, how did you like that casino? I went there to see Jay Mohr last year, but other than that show didn’t get to spend any time there. I’m much closer to the Tulalip so go there for my casino fix.
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The QUeensryche situation is a little different. DeGarmo is the one that really wrote most of the stuff. The credits bare that out, but even in the early material, where Wilton is credited more, suffice it to say, DeGarmo helped, even if he wasn't listed. DeGarmo also helped Tate with lyrics and melodies, even if DeGarmo wasn't credited, so even Tate's stuff that doesn't have DeGarmo, was influenced by DeGarmo's assistance.
That said, when he left, he really took the essence of what was Queensryche, musically and almost half lyrically, with him. So that's why to me, there is a distinct line drawn between the original lineup of the band, and anything else. DeGarmo was the primary songwriter. Without him, it's still a band, but a completely different one.
As for the casino, haven't been there personally. But I hear it's a cool place. Seattle is where my wife and I (well, the burbs) will be retiring. We spend a lot of time up there now. In the next 10 years, we'll buy our first place up there for summer getaways and then eventually sell it and move onto a house for our retirement years.
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Seattle is where my wife and I (well, the burbs) will be retiring. We spend a lot of time up there now. In the next 10 years, we'll buy our first place up there for summer getaways and then eventually sell it and move onto a house for our retirement years.
That’s probably the first ever instance of anyone using Seattle as their ‘summer getaway’ :biggrin:
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That sounded fucking horrible.
I'm a casual QR fan, and up until now I was still at the point where I thought it'd be kick-ass to have another Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Queensryche co-headlining tour.
Not anymore!!!
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I feel Samsara's pain. This has been a long-standing topic of discussion between us, and we both pretty much agree that the band has become a caricature.
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See, I don't get stuff like that. Yes, we all like naked ladies, hooray 'n' that, but it's very seedy and tacky to plop them all over the place. There's a time and a place - I'm not gonna have a wank watching Queensryche! Last thing I'm gonna want to do. As if we need sexual gratification all the time?
It just seems a bit insecure and patronising. "Hurr, check it out, we're blokes! Eh, bit of boob? Nice bit of boob!? Feast your eyes! Cause we're blokes!" It's just embarrassing.
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After watching these two 30 second clips (Lady Jane and The Thin Line) I'm done. First has a ballerina dancer, the second has uh...sluts. With a fan that is on stage with them, "hording" the whores.
30 second YouTube clip of them doing Lady Jane last night... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqteOg3rFDE
and The Thin Line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkuj4Kr7j7w
I'm done.
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And I thought the marine on stage was fuckin' stupid.
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Man alive, I remember when this band was on the verge of becoming one of my favorites, right after they released the masterpiece that is Promised Land. That was over 15 years ago. However, they have sucked nothing but complete ass ever since. Unbelievable how quickly they went down the shitter immediately after releasing what I consider their best record. Now, they are just laughable.
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see ? u should become a fan of dream theater. they won't go wrong never ever.
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Be careful. I'm sure the same thing has been said about many bands, and it rarely holds true all the way to the end.
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Be careful. I'm sure the same thing has been said about many bands, and it rarely holds true all the way to the end.
Agreed. There are plenty of bands who've out-lived their importance, only to make mockeries of their former existence. This is one reason why artists who die young like Jimi Hendrix and Kurt Cobain can retain that 'mythic' status... they never get the opportunity to ruin it.
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Wow. I had no idea things had gotten this bad. I gave up on them a while back, but hate to see something this pathetic.
(https://www.queensryche.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/qrcabaret-full.jpg)
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Jesus Christ.
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Somehow, I doubt he'd approve either.
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Somehow, I doubt he'd approve either.
Maybe he'll throw in some divine intervention and end this ridiculousness? Just end the band already. Please!
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Drag Queens?
:rollin :rollin :rollin
What a joke. Sorry Samsara, that must really suck that your favorite band evolved to such garbage.
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This is sad. They've moved into Dennis DeYoung territory.
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Way worse than that. DeYoung always had the theatrical side to him, and that brought the prog into Styx. Yeah, he took it a bit too far and they kicked his ass out, but in general I'm okay with musicals and shit.
"Queensryche Cabaret" is just... wrong.
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Wow. I had no idea things had gotten this bad. I gave up on them a while back, but hate to see something this pathetic.
(https://www.queensryche.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/qrcabaret-full.jpg)
You've got to be shitting me. I should listen to Mindcrime at some point in honor of the death of this once great band.
I doubt Nikki would approve of this.
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Man alive, I remember when this band was on the verge of becoming one of my favorites, right after they released the masterpiece that is Promised Land. That was over 15 years ago. However, they have sucked nothing but complete ass ever since. Unbelievable how quickly they went down the shitter immediately after releasing what I consider their best record. Now, they are just laughable.
Ironic - I just listened to Promised Land today for the first time in ages; it is a masterpiece and my favorite album from them. Then, I started thinking about how after that album, while HITNF was pretty good, things just got progressively worse, especially when DeGarmo left. This is an unprecedented low, however, for what used to be such an important and influential band.
Anybody know if DeGarmo has ever had plans to do a solo record? I absolutely love his lead vocal on 'All I Want.'
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I love nudity and boobs but goddamn. Queensryche, you fucked up. :tdwn
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I was a massive fan of QR from the first time I saw 'Queen Of the Ryche' on TV.
It was extremely sad to see a once great band turn into pale imitation of it's former self.
Promised Land, was the last real QR album for me.
After that, they slowly but surely, became a parody.
This just shows how low they have gone and become a laughing stock.
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Sad that a once great band has gone downhill so much. I actually bought American Soldier and listened to it to support them, but now when I think about it I should have bought one of their better albums from their heydays like Promised Land or Operation Mindcrime part 1, this Cabaret thing is just so unbelivebly bad that I dont know what to say. I was thinking of expanding my discography with them by buying the records with DeGarmo still in the band from The Warning to Hear in the Now Frontier, but now I dont know if I should support the Tate's by doing that...but if DeGarmo gets money of it I think I should.
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The only Ryche album I can get into is O:M. Everything else by them isn't that good in my opinion. Then again, I'm also extremely biased against them because of the tour they did with DT a while back.
This only further cements my dislike for them.
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Not a fan and never listened to QR that much but:
this Cabaret thing is just so unbelivebly bad that I dont know what to say.
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I've only ever listened to 4 Queensryche albums. Operation: Mindcrime and Empire were both pretty good. I bought Mindcrime II at a used record store for $6, and sold it back to them immediately for about $3. Finally, after hearing (relatively) good things about American Soldier, I downloaded that. But wasn't very impressed with it, and wound up removing it from my computer*.
*Yes, I actually download with the intent to buy...
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After watching these two 30 second clips (Lady Jane and The Thin Line) I'm done. First has a ballerina dancer, the second has uh...sluts. With a fan that is on stage with them, "hording" the whores.
30 second YouTube clip of them doing Lady Jane last night... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqteOg3rFDE
and The Thin Line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkuj4Kr7j7w
I'm done.
What the hell. The ballerina bit was ridiculous. And yeah, "The Thin Line" is about sex, but the ladies on stage were just standing there, not doing anything. WTF?
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Sad that a once great band has gone downhill so much. I actually bought American Soldier and listened to it to support them, but now when I think about it I should have bought one of their better albums from their heydays like Promised Land or Operation Mindcrime part 1, this Cabaret thing is just so unbelivebly bad that I dont know what to say. I was thinking of expanding my discography with them by buying the records with DeGarmo still in the band from The Warning to Hear in the Now Frontier, but now I dont know if I should support the Tate's by doing that...but if DeGarmo gets money of it I think I should.
I think Tate and Co. still deserve money for the earlier masterpieces. They're still great albums, no matter how crappy the band is now.
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Agreed. There are plenty of bands who've out-lived their importance, only to make mockeries of their former existence. This is one reason why artists who die young like Jimi Hendrix and Kurt Cobain can retain that 'mythic' status... they never get the opportunity to ruin it.
LV, you know..you hit the nail on the head. Very true indeed.
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Empire and Mindcrime are awesome. Rage For Order is okay, American Soldier was pretty bad. This caberet thing...Samsara and Bosk, I am so sorry. I feel like I should have seen them when they were going through Asheville last year, if only to see "Anybody Listening?"
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I'm not even a fan of Queensryche and I find it sad to see the band that brought me O:M do stuff like this...
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I'm not even going to bother to look at these awful links. This band has no credibility left. Such a shame.
O:M got me into this band. I was floored by this record. Mind=blown. Empire was amazing - so many good songs! The Promised Land wasn't Empire, and I really didn't get into that much. I give it a listen now and then and it's not bad by any means, just wasn't what I expected. Hear in the Now Frontier has some great songs/songwriting on it. It's got sounds and a style that is much different, but at least more than half that record is enjoyable. Chris DeGarmo leaves and we get Q2k. Say what you want, but I fully enjoyed this album when it came out. I thought Kelly Grey did a great job filling the spot. Tribe was largely forgettable. It sounded like they were trying hard to adapt to a new sound/new music scene. Some ok songs, but meh. O:M II should have never left the drawing board. FANS wanted this for a LONG time and they caved. I bought it, and listened to it straight through on a 5 hour drive. I listened again on the way back. I thought "not really getting the point here..." Sounded too much like they were trying to be what they did a long time ago, and it sounds forced. I saw the tour where they did O:M and O:M II back to back. Upon seeing O:M II with some staging and extra actors - it dawned on me - this is a terrible album and completely unnecessary. Then they go and do a covers album! (fer cryin' out loud - (see my rant in the Tesla thread)). I had mild interest in the new record, American Soldier, but after the lackluster reports/reviews here (and by Samsara ), I decided to quit looking to this band for any quality music. They had their time and place, and good/great stuff I can go back to listen to. But, seriously, a f*#kin' cabaret???
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Samsara, I know it must be very hard for you. I can only imagine how I'd feel if DT, Metallica, or Maiden sunk to this level.
That being said, move on and don't look back - they don't deserve your time or money.
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Hope bringing up such an old topic is okay... but this show was here on Thursday and I'm so confused as to what the hell?! There were commercials for it on local TV too. Part of me wanted to go to just see what the heck, but the rest of me wonders why all the gimmicks?! Is this something a member of the band always wanted to do, did a manager have a screw go loose?
Has anyone gone to see it?
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You would think Geoff would work on his voice and not his biceps. :facepalm:
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Hope bringing up such an old topic is okay... but this show was here on Thursday and I'm so confused as to what the hell?! There were commercials for it on local TV too. Part of me wanted to go to just see what the heck, but the rest of me wonders why all the gimmicks?! Is this something a member of the band always wanted to do, did a manager have a screw go loose?
Has anyone gone to see it?
Those are all good questions. I've never heard anything about who thought this up and why they think it's a good idea.
Also, I don't know anyone who's seen it, but then I don't live anywhere near there.
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I never liked QR that much anyway but this is just...well, beyond awful :(
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The main thing for me that changed for the worse after Promised Land was the quality of the production. Empire and PL had good songs, but they also sounded great. Everything since HITNF just sounds thin to me.
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Hope bringing up such an old topic is okay... but this show was here on Thursday and I'm so confused as to what the hell?! There were commercials for it on local TV too. Part of me wanted to go to just see what the heck, but the rest of me wonders why all the gimmicks?! Is this something a member of the band always wanted to do, did a manager have a screw go loose?
Has anyone gone to see it?
Those are all good questions. I've never heard anything about who thought this up and why they think it's a good idea.
Also, I don't know anyone who's seen it, but then I don't live anywhere near there.
Here is why. Read my entire post. The cabaret is a gimmick, because gimmicks are how the current "manager" has to sell the band to promoters.
https://www.anybodylistening.net/breakdownroom/index.php?topic=1849.msg29029#msg29029
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Well that certainly makes sense. It's also pretty damned sad.
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Hope bringing up such an old topic is okay... but this show was here on Thursday and I'm so confused as to what the hell?! There were commercials for it on local TV too. Part of me wanted to go to just see what the heck, but the rest of me wonders why all the gimmicks?! Is this something a member of the band always wanted to do, did a manager have a screw go loose?
Has anyone gone to see it?
Those are all good questions. I've never heard anything about who thought this up and why they think it's a good idea.
Also, I don't know anyone who's seen it, but then I don't live anywhere near there.
Here is why. Read my entire post. The cabaret is a gimmick, because gimmicks are how the current "manager" has to sell the band to promoters.
https://www.anybodylistening.net/breakdownroom/index.php?topic=1849.msg29029#msg29029
Interesting! Thanks for sharing.
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Speaking of gimmicks, anyone buy any of Geoff's horrible wine?
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I mean, do you know the wine is horrible, or are you just assuming because you hope it is horrible?
I'm not defending him, but having not had any I don't see any reason why he couldn't produce good wine.
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You mean produce a good whine, amirite?
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To be honest, I made the assumption that it's horrible :D
I read the description of the wine, and it just doesn't sound very good. As I understand it, Geoff didn't make the wine himself, he just mixed a bunch of already-existing wines together.
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As we all know, the real money in the music industry these days is in the touring. And, with QR not putting out quality product these days, their show attendance has gotta be suffering.
Enter gimmick... now, we have a rock band that's overstayed their welcome trying to hang on and cash in by throwing some scantilly-clad women into the mix. It's a bad idea that just wreaks of desperation.
I love(d) QR but haven't bought an album since Q2K (and that was one album too many). They're just a shell of what they were. And, they should've called it a day when DeGarmo left. It's just not the same.
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re: Geoff Tate's wine -- never had either of the two vintages. I haven't heard anything BAD about it, but I haven't personally checked it out. I plan to, however.
re: Whip Ale - Michael Wilton has a beer now, called Whip Ale. I HAVE tried that, and frankly, it's really good. It's only available regionally right now, but apparently it was so popular, he's gone with a new distributor, and I think it'll be all over the Pacific Northwest soon.
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Here is why. Read my entire post. The cabaret is a gimmick, because gimmicks are how the current "manager" has to sell the band to promoters.
https://www.anybodylistening.net/breakdownroom/index.php?topic=1849.msg29029#msg29029
Don't have time to hunt it down right now, but I read a pretty long GT interview a month or two ago that is much along those lines. I had no idea that his wife was their manager, but in retrospect it makes perfect sense, since the interview was largely defending their current course. His defense of the matter was that the music industry has changed so drastically that it requires similarly drastic strategies from bands to make any money. He cited lagging record sales (and threw out some interesting numbers), due to a combination of circumstance (including file sharing), as making it impossible for them to survive under the old business model. The numbers that he gave out struck me as both dead on and completely laughable. Of course they were selling 15 times as many albums in 1990 as they are now--they were making decent music. Contrary to Mr. Tate's opinion, it's not file sharing and it's not greedy record companies, it's Jason Slater that's the problem. Rather than addressing the long and steady decline of their songwriting, they will continue to look for other ways to make money that include this cabaret thing (and isn't there a Broadway musical version of OM in the works?).
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re: Whip Ale - Michael Wilton has a beer now, called Whip Ale. I HAVE tried that, and frankly, it's really good. It's only available regionally right now, but apparently it was so popular, he's gone with a new distributor, and I think it'll be all over the Pacific Northwest soon.
What manner of ale is it? I'm a total beer snob, so I'm actually quite interested in this one.
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I think the broadway musical of OM was an idea that Adam Pascal had and just decided to talk about how much he'd want to direct/act in it. I do agree with El Barto that a band like this needs to realize that when the quality of songwriting goes down, people aren't going to buy as many records, file sharing is only one part of the problem. I just hope that in real, non-interview life he realizes that what they've been doing can't hold a candle to OM or Empire, since bands have a tendency to always say the newest album is their greatest work in interviews whether they believe it or not.
And like everyone has said, this cabaret thing is stupidity beyond words.
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Well yeah, the business model needed to change, but they adopted a short term, whore-out, mo money now approach, instead of taking the time to create a long term plan. Both the short and long term approaches work, depending on your goals.
The problem is, Susan Tate is Tate's wife, her interest is in securing HER future, quickly, so that she can retire and life easy. Doesn't sound like that bad of an idea, but Geoff should be smarter than that. This is Geoff, Ed, Scott, and Michael's band. Susan had absolutely no experience prior to taking over Queensryche and if you talk to anyone she's dealt with over time, she's a horrible communicator.
They sold out what Queensryche was all about to get as much cash as they could now, sacrificing long term growth. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
I'm just talking business.
If you want to talk creative, then yeah, I agree, Slater should not be writing their songs. They should have taken the time to find someone worth investing in that could fill that second guitar spot and songwriter spot, and made that person "the guy." They didn't. They went cheap in hiring Mike Stone, and cheaper again in hiring the Tate's son in law. It's ridiculous.
But it's all about the short term cash grab.
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I think the broadway musical of OM was an idea that Adam Pascal had and just decided to talk about how much he'd want to direct/act in it. I do agree with El Barto that a band like this needs to realize that when the quality of songwriting goes down, people aren't going to buy as many records, file sharing is only one part of the problem. I just hope that in real, non-interview life he realizes that what they've been doing can't hold a candle to OM or Empire, since bands have a tendency to always say the newest album is their greatest work in interviews whether they believe it or not.
And like everyone has said, this cabaret thing is stupidity beyond words.
re: Broadway - no idea where that is. Honestly, I don't think the band's current manager has the business sense to get a deal done that works.
re: Whip Ale - it's a pale ale. I'm not a beer snob, I just enjoy the beers I like so not sure how to describe it.
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re: Whip Ale - Michael Wilton has a beer now, called Whip Ale. I HAVE tried that, and frankly, it's really good. It's only available regionally right now, but apparently it was so popular, he's gone with a new distributor, and I think it'll be all over the Pacific Northwest soon.
What manner of ale is it? I'm a total beer snob, so I'm actually quite interested in this one.
So wine from the ryche is bad but beer from the Ryche is good? :D I'm with you cause i hate wine but looooooove beer but it is funny that your ribbing them for one but not the other.
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Now if only I could get some Rockenfield Rum or Edbass Vodka.
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:lol you got me on that one, kingshmegland. I have to admit, I'm not really a fan of wine (though I do like a glass on occasion). Compound that with my dislike for the direction Geoff has taken the band, and I admit I would be more compelled to try Wilton's beer than Tate's wine.
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https://www.genestout.com/index.php/queensryche-cabaret-qa-with-singer-musician-geoff-tate/
“There is no record industry anymore. It’s gone,” Tate said. “Any kind of intellectual material — music, movies, books, newspapers, magazines — all these things are going down. All the millions and millions of dollars that people made in these industries — not just individuals, but the support network that made a living from those industries — all those jobs are going or are gone. The whole thing is unraveling and it’ll just keep unraveling until there’s nothing left. Because of the Internet. That’s the vehicle. Not the cause, just the vehicle.
“And so you can’t use the music industry model of 10 years ago to talk about today. It doesn’t exist. And a lot of people who don’t know anything about the industry, when they see a band not being able to sell records or selling very few records, they tend to think, ‘Oh, that band must not be very good.’ Or the artist must not be very good — or that’s releasing sub-par material. But they don’t understand that you can’t sell records on the scale we had before.”
Queensryche has sold more than 20 million albums. In the band’s heyday in the early ’90s, a new album might sell 500,000 copies in a relatively short period of time, causing jubilation at the band’s record label.
“Today, the younger guys in the business are jumping up and down when their band sells 2,000 records. There’s a big difference between 2,000 and 500,000. And that number keeps going down and down.”
There’s no way to fight the Internet and technological advancements, Tate said.
“Any time you put a safeguard on it that is supposed to protect people, protect the intellectual property, within a week or less someone figures out a way to get around it. So this has changed the way musicians make a living. Whereas we used to play 110 live dates a year, now we’re playing 210 dates a year. So income-wise we’re not being hurt by the piracy. We’re making the same amount of money we were back then. So it’s not hurting us.
“But new bands, new artists, who don’t have a touring audience, can’t go into any major city around the world and plop down and play a big show. How will that happen? And what is the fate of art and music in our culture?
“You can’t get bitter and cynical about it and pine for the good old days. It’s just not going to happen. You have to get crazy and come up with new ways of making a living.”
American Soldier sold 21k first week. By way of comparison, BC&SL sold 41k in the first week.
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That may be true, but Tate does make some good points. He's all whiney about it ("you just can't anymore, people don't understand"), but he makes some good points. The Internet has changed everything, and no one knows what the hell will work anymore, and even if it works today, whether or not it will work tomorrow. We know that the old models don't work, but no one knows what does.
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The internet has changed everything except one constant: make music that people want to buy. Making shitty music and then trying to get different people in to see mild T&A at the concerts isn't a particularly good marketing strategy.
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There are two things at play here:
Business
Art
They rarely mix well. It is true, and Tate makes the point, that it IS useless to look at old business models. That said, you need someone skillful enough to create a business model that takes your business (band) and sustains and grows that business going forward. What is going on in Camp Ryche these days is not that. Sure, they still make money...for now. But when you are a band that isn't putting out music (art side) that people enjoy a ton, you start cashing in on your past...and when that well runs dry, you'll no longer be making that income, nor playing 210 dates a year...because you DEVALUED YOUR BRAND.
Queensryche is experiencing that now. It's all about the next gimmick to keep the live shows going. Because their "manager" is too close to the band (Tate's wife) and is worried about how to support her family instead of giving long term building and growth advice.
There are many ways to play LESS and make MORE for a band like Queensryche with a rich history and popular catalog. But it takes sacrifice in the short term for a longer term gain, and they've elected for the short term payout to milk the cow dry.
A band like Dream Theater...they didn't even plan on playing these Maiden dates. Think about that. No big deal, they basically were set to take 3/4 of a year off. Why? Because they slowly built their brand up over a decade to a level now where they can likely play less shows, but still make more money than they did when they were touring for Awake and FII. Seriously.
I'd love to have a chat with DT's management team and see their business plan. Because it's exactly the one that QUeensryche SHOULD have used.
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:lol you got me on that one, kingshmegland. I have to admit, I'm not really a fan of wine (though I do like a glass on occasion). Compound that with my dislike for the direction Geoff has taken the band, and I admit I would be more compelled to try Wilton's beer than Tate's wine.
I was laughing reading it because I love beer to and hate wine but I knew Tate is pissing you off also. :D
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It wouldn't be a bad idea at all to have a different way of performing. Interesting that one comes with Dennis de Young. I actually thought about him and Phil Collins. The thing is, it needs conviction. Killroy was Here, while very musicalish, was still presented so well. Obviously it's having an opinion here. I feel, however, that Dennis didn't do this to cash in, but because he always was theatrical and wanted to go further.
The same goes with Phil Collins. While I do believe that he and the other band members completely agreed that it would be a more commercial/cash in approach, there still was thought behind it, Genesis still being a quality product.
When I saw that poster of this Queensrÿche goes Cabaret, it looks like a bad idea, however, it could work, it could be something. I had envisioned something like the Musical Cabaret, or Christina Aguilera's Back to Basics-era, with a QR flavour. Quite unrealistic, but it could be something if they really had thought about it. But when I watched the clip of YouTube, I see there is really no thought behind it other than thinking about money.
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A band like Dream Theater...they didn't even plan on playing these Maiden dates.
I'd love to have a chat with DT's management team and see their business plan. Because it's exactly the one that QUeensryche SHOULD have used.
Sam, what's your best educated guess as to when it was settled that DT was doing this tour? Where Maiden is invloved, there is a definite plan at work, and it's mostly long term..about 5 years out. So this tour's been planned for some time now..I would assume. Do you really believe that when MP said there would be no summer DT tour, that he did NOT know about the Maiden opportunity? I'm not asking to catch MP in a "gotcha". I'm more interested in how things work, and the timing of these.
Also..thinking about the Tate thing...it's funny because Marc Storace has done a better job enhancing the Krokus brand over the years that Tate has for QR. Also, many of their 80's contemporaries are actually releasing very strong albums these days.
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The Maiden tour was planned, sure (for Maiden). All the logistics were done way ahead of time. But the opening act - highly doubtful in my opinion. So yes, I firmly believe MP that nothing was planned for DT this summer. I would imagine about a month or six weeks prior to the announcement, DT was contacted and asked. Remember, DT isn't even getting soundcheck on that tour, which means it's just plug in and play. DT wasn't part of the "planning process" in my opinion regarding the tour. The opener was decided after everything was planned.
I'm not saying DT didn't know Maiden was going out. But what I am saying is that Maiden didn't "plan" to have DT on the tour well in advance. Maybe six weeks prior to the announcement.
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OK.good enough!
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Also..thinking about the Tate thing...it's funny because Marc Storace has done a better job enhancing the Krokus brand over the years that Tate has for QR. Also, many of their 80's contemporaries are actually releasing very strong albums these days.
Queensryche had that opportunity - twice. When DeGarmo left in 1997, the band had an opportunity to get the right guitar player and reinvent themselves. Instead, they picked Gray (Tate did) because Gray and Tate were in a prog metal band before Queensryche called Myth. Problem is, Gray, although he used to be very influenced by Richie Blackmore, and could really, really shred like him, couldn't play like that any longer. So the songs got screwed up, the songwriting suffered, and in the end, it failed.
So, when that ended in 2001, they had another opportunity to find the right guy. The thought about Chris, Chris worked with them in 2002 and 2003, and then he left again because of what I believe is Susan Tate's refusal to give up power, along with some changes in the band members' personalities.
At that point, Queensryche had an opportunity to really go out, (talking early 2003 here) make a laundry list of guitar players, and try them out and audition them. QR's profile was still high and they really could have gotten someone well suited to them at that point in time, had they tried.
Instead, they decided to go cheap with mike stone, and ignore the problem within the band - writing chemistry. The result? The producer and Tate wrote Mindcrime II. LOL. And now, without Stone, it continues. They went cheaper, with some kid that is Tate's son in law, who frankly, at least cares about playing the parts of DeGarmo right, but he's just not the right fit at all.
The band could have been a powerhouse again had they taken the time to do it right and committed to a long term plan. Instead, it was "shit, lets grab someone, and go out and tour now, to milk the cow." And they haven't broken free from that cycle since.
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It's really so sad... with the right moves they could've bounced back from HITNF and redefined themselves, in the way DT did with SFAM.
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It's really so sad... with the right moves they could've bounced back from HITNF and redefined themselves, in the way DT did with SFAM.
And I actually liked most of HITNF, so they didn't have all that far to bounce back for me personally. But then I bought Q2K and was like wtf?
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Well, most DT fans are the same way about FII. It's a good album, just a significant step down from Awake. Luckily, they bounced back in a big way with SFAM.
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Well, most DT fans are the same way about FII. It's a good album, just a significant step down from Awake. Luckily, they bounced back in a big way with SFAM.
I thought about that possible parallel, but I'm in the extreme minority of preferring FII over SFAM. Without question, though, SFAM is considered by many to be the epitome of DT, whereas Q2K? Um... no.
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Well, most DT fans are the same way about FII. It's a good album, just a significant step down from Awake. Luckily, they bounced back in a big way with SFAM.
I thought about that possible parallel, but I'm in the extreme minority of preferring FII over SFAM.
I'm with ya on that one.
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Well, most DT fans are the same way about FII. It's a good album, just a significant step down from Awake. Luckily, they bounced back in a big way with SFAM.
I thought about that possible parallel, but I'm in the extreme minority of preferring FII over SFAM.
I'm with ya on that one.
Really? Well now I don't feel so alone.
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Well, most DT fans are the same way about FII. It's a good album, just a significant step down from Awake. Luckily, they bounced back in a big way with SFAM.
I thought about that possible parallel, but I'm in the extreme minority of preferring FII over SFAM.
I'm with ya on that one.
Really? Well now I don't feel so alone.
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but yes, really. FII is much more dynamic and the sound and production is 10x superior. Songs are better too, on FII.
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I don't know if I could get back into QR as long as Geoff sings the way he does. Seriously the guy is a mere shadow of what he once was.
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I'm just reading all this now for the first time. All I can say is that Tate is crazier than I thought he was. Also, I feel bad for you, Samsara (and you too, bosky).
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Yes, it's super upsetting to see what what's going on in the Queensryche camp these days. I never thought they would remind me of Spinal Tap, because for so long they seemed so serious, classy, intelligent, and confident. I've been a devoted fan since 1990 but this Cabaret tour might be the last straw. I hope they spend a lot of time in the studio because it's going to take a very strong, complex album to win over many of the fans they have alienated and frustrated over the past couple years.
I actually thought Operation Mindcrime II was a great comeback, full of passion and energy, and I don't think there is a weak track on the whole album. I also think Here in the Now Frontier is really underrated--I know it's many steps below their classics, but I think it has a lot to offer. Q2K also isn't as worthless as many people say. I can't really defend Tribe or American Soldier though, with the exception of some pretty decent tracks (The Art of Life, Desert Dance, Dead Man's Words, Home Again, Hundred Mile Stair).
Has Wilton or Eddie been interviewed lately, and if so, have they commented at all about Queensryche's current direction?
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It's hard to say there is a single weak track on OMII when the entire album after Murderer is as equally weak as the next.
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I actually thought Operation Mindcrime II was a great comeback, full of passion and energy, and I don't think there is a weak track on the whole album.
Problem is, other than Tate, and two simple riffs by Wilton (The Hands, Murderer), no one in Queensryche wrote the songs for that album. "Hostage," which was a track intended for Tribe (it was finished right after the songs were submitted to the label for that album), was written by Jackson/Tate/Wilton...but they changed the ripping Wilton solo in the Tribe-era version and put in all that courtroom bullshit, and that harmonized solo which changed the coolness of the cut.
Simply put, Mindcrime II is in no way a "Queensryche" album except in name. Neither is American Soldier. Wilton and Jackson didn't write a thing, all the songs were by the producer, Jason Slater, and in some cases, Kelly Gray (there were two leftover tracks from Rockenfield's band with Damon Johnson, Slave to the System, that were also used).
It's not QUEENSRYCHE any more. Not the way it was. It's now Geoff Tate with the other guys just playing what they're given to play. Hopefully that will change, but I doubt it.
I also think Here in the Now Frontier is really underrated--I know it's many steps below their classics, but I think it has a lot to offer.
It is still at the bottom of the original lineup's catalog, but it does have some good guitar work and decent songs on there, yeah.
Q2K also isn't as worthless as many people say.
A handful of decent tracks. The b-side "Howl" is probably the strongest of them, along with Liquid Sky and When the Rain Comes. "RIght Side" is good too, but I think it's a bit overrated. Still, it is one of the best on the record.
I can't really defend Tribe or American Soldier though, with the exception of some pretty decent tracks (The Art of Life, Desert Dance, Dead Man's Words, Home Again, Hundred Mile Stair).
Tribe is incomplete. The song "Justified" which is on the Sign of the Times: The Very Best of Queensryche, is a Tribe leftover that wasn't quite finished before Chris left. He finished it with Tate a couple years ago. Also, the aforementioned demo version of Hostage should have been on there too. If you delete "Losing Myself" (the only non-original lineup written song on Tribe), and add those two, it's a pretty darn good album. Do yourself a favor and re-listen to the song "Falling Behind." Take note of the style the music...it builds and has some really good Queensryche-sounding stuff in there.
Has Wilton or Eddie been interviewed lately, and if so, have they commented at all about Queensryche's current direction?
Tate does most, if not all the QR interviews these days, probably because of that. Plus, Wilton and Jackson aren't going to derail their only legitimate source of income by rocking the boat. Tate has them by the balls. They know it, he knows it. And it isn't Geoff as much as it is his wife, Yoko Ono...I mean Susan Tate.
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(https://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/bosk1/Queensryche/SttS.jpg)
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That pretty much sums it up, bosky.
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An amusing comment was made by Janick Gers in a recent interview.
"On whether he foresaw still being a part of IRON MAIDEN 20 years later when he joined the band in 1990:
"It's been fun, and as long as we enjoy it and it feels valid and the fans are still coming and we have great concerts, I'd like to carry on. And the minute I don't enjoy it and we don't deliver, I wouldn't want to carry on as a parody act doing a cabaret show.""
;)
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Eddie Bait just owned.