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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Perpetual Change on February 03, 2010, 08:20:54 AM
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Today, I thought of one reason why Octavarium is still probably the band's most underrated album. It's so hard to digest, because after TROAE the energy level plummets. Usually, for an album to feel consistent, there needs to be a "one-two" punch of opening songs. This is the forumla that works on plenty of great albums, including DT's Awake and PT's In Absentia and DT's Addicted.
What if 8va were set up like this?
1. TROAE
2. Panic Attack
3. These Walls
4. IWBY
5. NE
6. TALW
7. SS
8. 8va
Would you like it better?
Would you at least feel like it was better?
Of course, that'd fuck up the whole concept but oh well :neverusethis:
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It's an interesting thought, but Octavarium is already my favourite DT album, so changing the order might fuck that up for me.
But in terms of how other people see it, I can see it having some level of affect.
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Reordering a concept album is a bad idea. :neverusethis:
Seriously, I think the pacing is fine the way it is.
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It's an interesting thought, but Octavarium is already my favourite DT album, so changing the order might fuck that up for me.
But in terms of how other people see it, I can see it having some level of affect.
Holy crap, 8VM is your favorite DT album?
Dude! o/
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*\o
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I'm not sure how I'd feel about re-ordering it. At the moment it seems to alternate between the great songs and the weaker songs. The weaker songs disrupt the flow of the album and stop any part of the album having a good 1-2 punch, but sticking them all together like that would have created a huge drag in the middle of the album.
Octavarium's strength and weakness is its diversity, and I think as an album it works best as it is, for better or worse.
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It's a thoughtful proposal, but I have to say I really love the 1-2 rocking punch in the middle of the album with PA and NE. I wouldn't want to lose that. Plus, I&W starts with PMU, followed by 'Another Day,' and yet it is the standard-bearer of all DT albums. Not that I am suggesting TALW is even worthy to tie 'Another Day's' shoes. So maybe the difference in quality between those two track 2's, not the fact that track 2 is a ballad, is what keeps (or doesn't keep) the momentum of the opening track going.
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The continuity makes up for the weaker songs on the album, IMO. Honestly, if you just replace IWBY with a song that doesn't make me wretch, the entire album would move up a couple of notches in my book.
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This could have been a good EP. Leave off the boring "These Walls," the cringe-worthy "Never Enough," the decent, but ultimately forgettable "The Answer Lies Within," and the overdone, but nothing special "Sacrificed Sons," and you have a good EP of:
"The Root of All Evil"
"I Walk Beside You"
"Panic Attack"
"Octavarium"
Actually, if this were the 70s, that could have been a good full-length studio record. I know some will say, "Yeah, but leaving off anything ruins the full circle aspect of the title song and blah, blah, blah," but who cares?
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This could have been a good EP. Leave off the boring "These Walls," the cringe-worthy "Never Enough," the decent, but ultimately forgettable "The Answer Lies Within," and the overdone, but nothing special "Sacrificed Sons," and you have a good EP of:
"The Root of All Evil"
"I Walk Beside You"
"Panic Attack"
"Octavarium"
Actually, if this were the 70s, that could have been a good full-length studio record. I know some will say, "Yeah, but leaving off anything ruins the full circle aspect of the title song and blah, blah, blah," but who cares?
The type of fan who cares about the album as a whole, and appreciates the care that the band put into crafting an album, rather than just a collection of songs. :)
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This could have been a good EP. Leave off the boring "These Walls," the cringe-worthy "Never Enough," the decent, but ultimately forgettable "The Answer Lies Within," and the overdone, but nothing special "Sacrificed Sons," and you have a good EP of:
"The Root of All Evil"
"I Walk Beside You"
"Panic Attack"
"Octavarium"
Actually, if this were the 70s, that could have been a good full-length studio record. I know some will say, "Yeah, but leaving off anything ruins the full circle aspect of the title song and blah, blah, blah," but who cares?
If we're talking the album which might be best as an EP, then I think Systematic Chaos is the best choice. Or A Change Of Seasons. ;)
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I understand that tracks 2, 4, and 6 are considered the weaker songs, but the fact is the album has a great flow, regardless of song quality, all the way up through Panic Attack. I wouldn't change the order.
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This could have been a good EP. Leave off the boring "These Walls," the cringe-worthy "Never Enough," the decent, but ultimately forgettable "The Answer Lies Within," and the overdone, but nothing special "Sacrificed Sons," and you have a good EP of:
"The Root of All Evil"
"I Walk Beside You"
"Panic Attack"
"Octavarium"
Actually, if this were the 70s, that could have been a good full-length studio record. I know some will say, "Yeah, but leaving off anything ruins the full circle aspect of the title song and blah, blah, blah," but who cares?
I agree with everything you've said except that I love These Walls. Great tune.
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That wouldn't make it better to me. Octavarium is still there.
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What if 8va were set up like this?
1. TROAE
2. Panic Attack
3. These Walls
4. IWBY
5. NE
6. TALW
7. SS
8. 8va
Would you like it better?
No.
Would you at least feel like it was better?
No.
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I think the pacing of the tracklist is done quite nicely, and works well in the confines of its concepts. I think having a 1-2 Punch wouldn't make much a difference, and besides, "The Root Of All Evil" a pretty heavy track already, and I think "The Answer Lies Within" works great as a breather to it. Likewise with "I Walk Beside You" following "These Walls", and the opening of "Octavarium" after the heavy second-half of "Sacrificed Sons". The album, as a whole, has an up-down-up-down pattern to it (with the slight exception of "Panic Attack"-"Never Enough"), which works great IMO.
I think pretty much any of their other albums could be re-ordered and still sound okay, but I think because the idea behind Octavarium is so stuck inside my mind (and maybe many others' as well), changing the tracklist would pretty much ruin what MP and the rest had in mind for the whole piece.
-Marc.
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:lol Love Hefs posting
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:lol Love Hefs posting
Rule 13: Omit needless words.
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I like the idea. I personally tend to soften(give in?) my original disliking of songs I don't like when they occur in groups and I think it's kinda like when you see three skanks in a bar and they're the only girls there at the time so suddenly alpha-skank seems remotely fuckable by comparison despite looking like a hooker you'd see in stock footage from 60 Minutes on first glance.
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Reordering a concept album is a bad idea. :neverusethis:
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:lol Love Hefs posting
Rule 13: Omit needless words.
Roger that, sir.
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In terms of momentum, this is what I'd suggest:
1. TRoAE
2. Panic Attack
3. TALW
4. These Walls
5. Never Enough
6. IWBY
7. Sacrificed Sons
8. 8vm
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I think it's kinda nice as it is.
In fact, if I had to dabble, I'd only make a very small change.
1. The Root of All Evil
2. The Answer Lies Within
3. I Walk Beside You
4. These Walls
5. Panic Attack
6. Never Enough
7. Sacrificed Sons
8. Octavarium
Means that it builds and builds. The slower songs are gonna slow the momentum wherever you put them - this way you get hit in the face, but then it draws straight back, and builds the intensity up again gradually, until These Walls comes to a full stop at its crechendo, pauses and gives way to Act Two, where Panic Attack comes storming in.
I'd put IWBY into A and These Walls into B, too, and leave the interludes in their places and original keys.
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I'd put IWBY into A and These Walls into B, too, and leave the interludes in their places and original keys.
Holy christ. Just put IWBY in A with pitchshift, it actually sounds really cool! James sounds really good a tone lower.
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1. TROAE
2. Panic Attack
3. These Walls
4. IWBY
5. NE
6. TALW
7. SS
8. 8va
I think the above setup (from the OP) might improve the flow a bit (other than ruining the "pseudo-concept"). But unfortunately, rearranging the songs cannot make a mediocre album into a good one. If I'm honest, the only songs on the album I ever listen to with any sort of consistency are TROAE and the title track. I could live without everything else.
-J
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I love the pacing of 8VM. What I'm about to say might be blasphemy, but it really reminds me of the pacing of I&W. You have the great opener, one soft song, another great solid song, another sort of softy, and then everything to the end is just great music. I'M NOT AT ALL SAYING THEY ARE OF THE SAME QUALITY, just a same sort of pacing (minus Wait for Sleep of course).
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I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it. I love Octavarium. I always go back to that album consistently.
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I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it. I love Octavarium. I always go back to that album consistently.
:tup :tup :tup
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I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it. I love Octavarium. I always go back to that album consistently.
Same here. It does have a few songs that sound a bit like filler, but every album (including Images) feels that way. They key is, the "filler" songs aren't really bad, and the stronger songs are more than enough to make a stellar album.
Going back to the OP, it seems the impetus for the possible rearrangement was the lack of "1-2 punch" to get the album started. While I agree with the general principle, I don't think this album suffers for that because (1) the overall pacing is fine, and (2) when you have a longish song (i.e., longer than the standard 2 1/2 - 4 minutes of most bands) already like TROAE, you don't necessarily need a second heavy, energetic song to get that feeling.
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I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it. I love Octavarium. I always go back to that album consistently.
Same. Favourite DT album. With IAW a close second. Fantastic stuff.
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Going back to the OP, it seems the impetus for the possible rearrangement was the lack of "1-2 punch" to get the album started. While I agree with the general principle, I don't think this album suffers for that because (1) the overall pacing is fine, and (2) when you have a longish song (i.e., longer than the standard 2 1/2 - 4 minutes of most bands) already like TROAE, you don't necessarily need a second heavy, energetic song to get that feeling.
It seems to me that more of DT’s albums lack the 1-2 punch than feature it, but let’s see.
Those lacking it:
WDADU – 1. AFIL 2. Status Seeker
I&W – 1. PMU 2. Another Day
FII – I wouldn’t really call ‘New Millennium’ a song that “punches,” at least not at the beginning, thought it’s still a great opener
6DOIT (Disc 1) – 1. TGP 2. Blind Faith (the intro loses the punch from TGP, even if it picks back up as you go on)
Octavarium – 1. TROAE 2. TALW
SC – 1. ITPOE pt. 1 2. Forsaken
Those featuring the 1-2 punch:
Awake – 1. 6:00 2. Caught In A Web
SFAM (discounting Regression) – 1. 1928 Overture 2. Strange Déjà Vu
SDOIT (Disc 2) – I. Overture II. About To Crash (This one is arguable).
TOT – 1. As I Am 2. TDS
BC&SL – 1. ANTR 2. AROP
According to my interpretation, the lack of the 1-2 punch wins a hotly contested battle 6 to 5.
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Just switch out The Answer Lies Within and These Walls.
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I actually love every song on Octavarium. I feel like the album has aged extremely well. I can't say the same about SC, which I rarely listen to anymore. I do, however, feel that BCSL will age similarly well to Octavarium, as the album has aged quite well in the months since its release. I remember SC was stale for me by this point in the year after its release, but BCSL still sounds fresh. This is a relief for me, as I feel that SC was simply a miss-step between two very good albums.
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I actually love every song on Octavarium. I feel like the album has aged extremely well. I can't say the same about SC, which I rarely listen to anymore. I do, however, feel that BCSL will age similarly well to Octavarium, as the album has aged quite well in the months since its release. I remember SC was stale for me by this point in the year after its release, but BCSL still sounds fresh. This is a relief for me, as I feel that SC was simply a miss-step between two very good albums.
This
Just switch out The Answer Lies Within and These Walls.
also this
It does have a few songs that sound a bit like filler, but every album (including Images) feels that way.
what is this i dont even
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I'd put IWBY into A and These Walls into B, too, and leave the interludes in their places and original keys.
Holy christ. Just put IWBY in A with pitchshift, it actually sounds really cool! James sounds really good a tone lower.
Trying this now.
...
Aside from the weird effect pitch-shift tends to have on vocals, it sounds pretty cool. Don't know if I prefer it to the normal key, but it's interesting nonetheless.
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I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it. I love Octavarium. I always go back to that album consistently.
Same. Favourite DT album. With IAW a close second. Fantastic stuff.
There seem to be a lot of people who share this opinion but I have to strongly disagree. Excluding Octavarium's title track (which might make my top 10), the best of the remaining songs on Octavarium is still worse than the worst song on I&W. The whole album is just very mediocre, IMO: nothing truly *bad* on it, but only a couple of songs I'd call "great".
-J
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I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it. I love Octavarium. I always go back to that album consistently.
Same. Favourite DT album. With IAW a close second. Fantastic stuff.
There seem to be a lot of people who share this opinion but I have to strongly disagree. Excluding Octavarium's title track (which might make my top 10), the best of the remaining songs on Octavarium is still worse than the worst song on I&W. The whole album is just very mediocre, IMO: nothing truly *bad* on it, but only a couple of songs I'd call "great".
-J
I agree with everything you said. My biggest problem with Octavarium would be that it seemed to fail to deliver on each thing I liked about DT with the exception of TRoAE and PA.
Tracks 2-4 almost made me angry listening to them when I first got the album. TALW just never felt like a DT track to me and unless something unexpectedly sparks some interest for me it likely never will. I like softer songs like Wait for Sleep, Another Day, Anna Lee, One Last Time so don't mistake me for being the type that can only dig the heavier stuff. I guess the song just bores me to tears and has virtually nothing memorable as far as the melodic content of it goes. These Walls' first riff(the one that leads into Jordan's entrance) still doesn't seem to fit the song no matter how much I listen to it and the song has its nice moments but this song had the potential to be a masterpiece. Its riffs are solid but in the end it just feels flat especially on JP's parts which are nicely written and structured but I think the less-is-more approach to it limited it a lot.
IWBY can be summed up as a mediocre-at-best U2 cover. The tenth time or so I listened to it I basically gave up on it and listen to it maybe once a year now hoping to find some reason to like it but very little has happened on that front. Panic Attack is easily my fave on this album so I'm not gonna try to solidify my point by needlessly hating on a song I genuinely like. Never Enough killed me both w/the lyrical content and JLB's melodramatic delivery.
Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.
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The thing is, I can actually recommend all the songs in I&W, but not Octavarium. I&W songs are much more fun to listen than Octavarium. The songs there are mostly boring and I usually can't go past the first chorus. Except for The Root of All Evil and Octavarium though.
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Hmm...I just had an interesting thought... *ranks the Octavarium and I&W songs together*
Octavarium
Metropolis, pt. I
Learning To Live
Panic Attack
Pull Me Under
Sacrificed Sons
The Root Of All Evil
Wait For Sleep
Take The Time
These Walls
Under a Glass Moon
I Walk Beside You
Never Enough
Surrounded
Another Day
The Answer Lies Within
Pretty arbitrary way of comparing the albums, but I was curious to see how it would shake out if I did it this way. As far as my tastes, they're pretty evenly matched.
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Well, I agree with you that Another Day is the 8th best song on I&W, that Octavarium is the best song from 8VM, and that The Answer Lies Within is the worst song from either, but that's about it.
Wow, you must really like Panic Attack.
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I really like all those songs down through These Walls. After that, for the rest of the songs, I can take 'em or leave 'em.
Curious how you'd rank 'em. Wait--don't answer that. We should do a new thread...
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OK, I'll wait for your thread. :biggrin:
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This could have been a good EP. Leave off the boring "These Wa-
I stopped reading there :loser:
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Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.
This confuses me. Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song. It becomes so intense by the end. I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.
How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery? That whole song is pure prog genius. To this day I still think it's the best song ever written. Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing. All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building. The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing. I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike. Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me. This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.
I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.
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Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.
This confuses me. Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song. It becomes so intense by the end. I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.
How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery? That whole song is pure prog genius. To this day I still think it's the best song ever written. Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing. All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building. The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing. I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike. Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me. This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.
I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.
i endorse this post
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Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.
This confuses me. Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song. It becomes so intense by the end. I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.
How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery? That whole song is pure prog genius. To this day I still think it's the best song ever written. Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing. All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building. The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing. I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike. Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me. This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.
I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.
i endorse this post
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Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.
This confuses me. Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song. It becomes so intense by the end. I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.
How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery? That whole song is pure prog genius. To this day I still think it's the best song ever written. Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing. All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building. The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing. I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike. Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me. This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.
I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.
i endorse this post
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austin = DTF's laziest poster ;)
That said,
Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.
This confuses me. Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song. It becomes so intense by the end. I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.
How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery? That whole song is pure prog genius. To this day I still think it's the best song ever written. Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing. All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building. The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing. I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike. Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me. This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.
I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.
i endorse this post
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How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery? That whole song is pure prog genius. To this day I still think it's the best song ever written. Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing. All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building. The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing. I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike. Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me. This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.
I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.
I consider the JR continuum intro wankery because it's ridiculously long for what little it contains overall. By contrast I adore The Divine Wings of Tragedy by Symphony X which has an intro roughly the same length but accomplishes a hell of a lot more within that timeframe by comparison. I get that JR is establishing mood and whatnot but ffs it's 4 minutes of atmospheric ambiance and nothing more than chord crescendos and sparse continuum.
Awesome and flowing seem a touch flattering when it can easily be seen as DT borrowing heavily from Yes, Styx, etc. and merely trying to put a fresh face on that tried-and-true format to make it appealing to newer fans. I guess it's just a difference in opinions but I find numerous transitions in 8vm to be a bit herky-jerky and made merely in a forced attempt to raise the prog-osity to 11.
While I lean a hair more in the direction of metal I definitely consider myself a prog guy as well. I'm a huge Rush, Pink Floyd and Yes fan and the only Rush era I don't much like is Signal-Presto which is widely regarded as completely non-prog with the shortened and simplified structures they used during it. I love the vast majority of the DT catalogue even FII and WDADU(which I actually like probably more than anyone else on here unless some other fans of it emerge from the woodwork :sadpanda:) and 8vm is the only album that I can't just put on and play all the way through.
I welcome your retort though since I like these little debates since it seems this will be a rather peaceful one :tup
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austin = DTF's laziest poster ;)
Oh gee thanks
I came back to dtf and told myself that I would adopt a new posting system
if someone says something better than or as good as I could say it myself I'd rather credit them in my own opinion through their words rather than write it out myself
but at least i have status here now. That's going in my usertitle
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austin = DTF's laziest poster ;)
Oh gee thanks
I came back to dtf and told myself that I would adopt a new posting system
if someone says something better than or as good as I could say it myself I'd rather credit them in my own opinion through their words rather than write it out myself
but at least i have status here now. That's going in my usertitle
And I thought Hef was the minimalist around here.
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And I thought Hef was the minimalist around here.
Be a minimalist. It's the least you can do.
:biggrin:
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austin = DTF's laziest poster ;)
Oh gee thanks
I came back to dtf and told myself that I would adopt a new posting system
if someone says something better than or as good as I could say it myself I'd rather credit them in my own opinion through their words rather than write it out myself
but at least i have status here now. That's going in my usertitle
And I thought Hef was the minimalist around here.
Yes, but hef can sum up entire paragraphs-worth of opinion in only one word in a way that no other man has ever quite mastered.
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How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery? That whole song is pure prog genius. To this day I still think it's the best song ever written. Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing. All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building. The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing. I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike. Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me. This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.
I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.
I consider the JR continuum intro wankery because it's ridiculously long for what little it contains overall. By contrast I adore The Divine Wings of Tragedy by Symphony X which has an intro roughly the same length but accomplishes a hell of a lot more within that timeframe by comparison. I get that JR is establishing mood and whatnot but ffs it's 4 minutes of atmospheric ambiance and nothing more than chord crescendos and sparse continuum.
Awesome and flowing seem a touch flattering when it can easily be seen as DT borrowing heavily from Yes, Styx, etc. and merely trying to put a fresh face on that tried-and-true format to make it appealing to newer fans. I guess it's just a difference in opinions but I find numerous transitions in 8vm to be a bit herky-jerky and made merely in a forced attempt to raise the prog-osity to 11.
While I lean a hair more in the direction of metal I definitely consider myself a prog guy as well. I'm a huge Rush, Pink Floyd and Yes fan and the only Rush era I don't much like is Signal-Presto which is widely regarded as completely non-prog with the shortened and simplified structures they used during it. I love the vast majority of the DT catalogue even FII and WDADU(which I actually like probably more than anyone else on here unless some other fans of it emerge from the woodwork :sadpanda:) and 8vm is the only album that I can't just put on and play all the way through.
I welcome your retort though since I like these little debates since it seems this will be a rather peaceful one :tup
Yeah man, I totally get where you are coming from with the 4 minute intro. I used to skip past it all the time but I've learned to enjoy it more. To me it adds to the hold build up of the song now. I can definitely see where that would turn you off though.
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How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
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blah blah 4 minute intro
same
I think I too would initially skip the intro except it was one of the first things that drew me into Octavarium (and DT as a whole too) since when I was first getting into DT I was checking out random videos and I came across Jordan's solo on Score. I was blown away by both the continuum and JR (my first exposure to him) and I watched the solo at least 10 times :lol
Had I instead started with the album and not created such fond memories of my first exposure to DT with the solo I'd definitely consider it unnecessary and (contrary to blob's wise explanation) wankery.
That is all :hat
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How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself. The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol. That's my interpretation of the critique.
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How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing with himself. The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol. That's my interpretation of the critique.
fix'd :lol
if that doesn't count as wankery we need a new definition
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How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself. The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol. That's my interpretation of the critique.
But that's not what wankery means. Wankery is lots of notes. Perhaps self-indulgent is more what you're thinking? But it's not what I'd classify as wanky.
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How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself. The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol. That's my interpretation of the critique.
This. Also, Blob before you try giving others a pointer on the meaning of a word why don't you post a link to a non-slang definition since the only place I could find a definition was urbandictionary.com, not exactly Webster's or Old Oxford ya dig? Slang is not exactly the final word on anything.
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How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself. The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol. That's my interpretation of the critique.
But that's not what wankery means. Wankery is lots of notes. Perhaps self-indulgent is more what you're thinking? But it's not what I'd classify as wanky.
IMO I think it might be classified as both. Even if it was just for atmosphere- like since it was kindof an ambient section, the standards for wankery are reduced. It could have been kinda simplified from what it was like JP's ambient section in TCoT. Maybe. I dunno.
Also I feel like using this emote :hat
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How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself. The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol. That's my interpretation of the critique.
This. Also, Blob before you try giving others a pointer on the meaning of a word why don't you post a link to a non-slang definition since the only place I could find a definition was urbandictionary.com, not exactly Webster's or Old Oxford ya dig?
I think it's pretty well established, especially on this forum, that wank means playing lots of notes. There's never been any need to define it any clearer than that, because it's pretty clear as it is. An ambient fade in intro is not wanky.
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How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
Slang is heavily subject to opinion and tends to evolve to meet the needs of various contexts unlike real words. You make it sound as though you think we're ignorant for not accepting your narrow view of a slang word's functionality.
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To me wankery = self indulgence
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blob's reexplanation
while I disagree with his opinion on whether or not the solo is wankery, his definition and explanation of assumed understanding are spot on and might I add would probably be fairly widely accepted :hat
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How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
Slang is heavily subject to opinion and tends to evolve to meet the needs of various contexts unlike real words. You make it sound as though you think we're ignorant for not accepting your narrow view of a slang word's functionality.
:lol I have never once on this forum heard any ambiguity about the definition of musical wank. Ever. It's not I'm making up a different meaning of the word. This is just what the word has always meant here.
Note: Wank isn't just a generic term people use to criticize JR. It actually does infact have a definition here. Is this really even up for debate? ???
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To me wankery = self indulgence
Agreed. Basically someone beating an idea to death in the vain hopes of it adding to a composition. I understand it may not be as popular as the other def. but I've surely heard other people use this as well. Additionally, the word is obviously far from being exclusive to this forum so I don't even understand why that was used as an arguing point in the first place.
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I never really think DT bring the wank as much as some other progressive metal bands do. Of course, Symphony X are the kings of wank. In my opinion, DT reach wank when this happens.
JP solos (not wank)
JR solos (still not wank)
JP solos again (getting close to wank
JR solos again (ok. we now are getting dangerously close.)
JP and JR unison (wank has assumed control. wank has assumed control.)
Mind you this has to all be in one section of a song.
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To me wankery = self indulgence
Agreed. Basically someone beating an idea to death in the vain hopes of it adding to a composition. I understand it may not be as popular as the other def. but I've surely heard other people use this as well. Additionally, the word is obviously far from being exclusive to this forum so I don't even understand why that was used as an arguing point in the first place.
Because it's all about context. It would make no sense to use a term contrary to its accepted definition of its context.
I'll accept that you have a different definition, but I still I disagree as to that intro being wank. It's a slow built-up intro, increasing in intensity to set the mood of the song. In a 24 minute song, I don't see 4-5 minutes as being excessive or self indulgent any more than for example the 3 minute outro solo by JP for TBOT.
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Because it's all about context. It would make no sense to use a term contrary to its accepted definition of its context.
I'll accept that you have a different definition, but I still I disagree as to that intro being wank. It's a slow built-up intro, increasing in intensity to set the mood of the song. In a 24 minute song, I don't see 4-5 minutes as being excessive or self indulgent any more than for example the 3 minute outro solo by JP for TBOT.
I get that but based on your use of ratio of intro to total song length then Six Degrees could have a bland ethereal 7-9 minute continuum intro and that'd be just fine. I have no problem with establishing mood but the when the pacing causes me to lose focus and become frustrated at the waste of time it's turned into I draw the line. At least after those 4 minutes(well 3:48 anyway) he brings in that melody that begins to give the song some life.
What I don't understand is how many people on this forum slobber all over 8vm's intro but virtually everyone will pan Opeth's much shorter outro to Dirge for November for it's "redundancy." :huh:
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Because it's all about context. It would make no sense to use a term contrary to its accepted definition of its context.
I'll accept that you have a different definition, but I still I disagree as to that intro being wank. It's a slow built-up intro, increasing in intensity to set the mood of the song. In a 24 minute song, I don't see 4-5 minutes as being excessive or self indulgent any more than for example the 3 minute outro solo by JP for TBOT.
I get that but based on your use of ratio of intro to total song length then Six Degrees could have a bland ethereal 7-9 minute continuum intro and that'd be just fine. I have no problem with establishing mood but the when the pacing causes me to lose focus and become frustrated at the waste of time it's turned into I draw the line. At least after those 4 minutes(well 3:48 anyway) he brings in that melody that begins to give the song some life.
What I don't understand is how many people on this forum slobber all over 8vm's intro but virtually everyone will pan Opeth's much shorter outro to Dirge for November for it's "redundancy." :huh:
:lol Where is anyone slobbering over the intro? Some people like it, some don't. And it's bland in your opinion, but to me it's a great moody build-up to the song, building up intensity over an interesting and unique underlying chord progression. I respect that you don't like it (plenty of others who don't, and I skip it occasionally too, no big deal), but I don't think it's wank any more than the intro to Trial of Tears, the mid-section of TCOT, or any other lengthy outro solo by JP like TBOT.
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Why do you all keep referring to wank as if its a bad thing?
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Why do you all keep referring to wank as if its a bad thing?
You got this one Blob or do I need to elaborate?
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Why do you all keep referring to wank as if its a bad thing?
You got this one Blob or do I need to elaborate?
Nah, we're good here.
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austin = DTF's laziest poster ;)
Oh gee thanks
I came back to dtf and told myself that I would adopt a new posting system
if someone says something better than or as good as I could say it myself I'd rather credit them in my own opinion through their words rather than write it out myself
but at least i have status here now. That's going in my usertitle
And I thought Hef was the minimalist around here.
Yes, but hef can sum up entire paragraphs-worth of opinion in only one word in a way that no other man has ever quite mastered.
True.
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Replace IWBY with ANYTHING and it will be a better album.
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Replace IWBY and TALW with ANYTHING even Mmmmbop and it will be a better album.
fix'd ;)
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I'm quite partial to TALW, but IWBY is just terrible.
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I'm quite partial to TALW, but IWBY is just terrible.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.