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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: TheHoveringSojourn808 on April 05, 2024, 05:18:21 PM
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There may be some people out there who deny that JLB is still as good as ever. A few unkind cellphone clips (let us remember that cellphone microphones don't capture the human voice very well) of him on the last tour will never wash away how great, unique, amazIng, and insightful of a singer he is
Here is the evidence:
Our guy was cameo'd (is that the word) a request to do an a capella performance of "Innocence Faded". Here was the result; I believe they speak for themselves
https://youtu.be/QX0k8oRuiOY?si=TSkrAJUBgN1iVeV9
Sounds pretty damn good, doesn't it??
Here is the same video transposed over the original song
https://youtu.be/Y0_cRS5g8Qc?si=jRej3d1yekgFqQvT
It's absolutely I N S A N E that he is able to still sing a nearly pitch and tempo perfect rendition of the song decades after it was originally written and recorded.
If that's not impressive, I don't know what is! :yarr :metal
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Pretty awesome for sure! Thanks for the links, James is one of my favorites of all time. 💫
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A few unkind cellphone clips (let us remember that cellphone microphones don't capture the human voice very well)
Here we go again! There are several pro-shot recordings that support the evidence found in what you're calling "unkind cellphone clips". But I suppose their microphones "don't capture the human voice very well", either, eh?
Otherwise, yes, impressive. I'd just like to hear him do it night in, night out, live. Or at least something close to it. Simple as that, really :)
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There may be some people out there who deny that JLB is still as good as ever.
As much as I love LaBrie, I really don't think anyone could ever agree with you he's still as good as ever. Which physically he can't be, since his voices (damages in the past and) aged so much. Is he still a great singer? Surely. Is his voice still wonderful? Surely. But no way on earth he can sing Awake these days like back in the '90's. Even though he still has his goose-bumping moments.
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A few unkind cellphone clips (let us remember that cellphone microphones don't capture the human voice very well) of him on the last tour.
He was pretty bad last tour. Simple as that. You can't explain how bad he was using cellphone excuse. Other singers sound awesome via cellphone but James not? I don't know exactly what happened but James' been so bad since Astonishing tour. Bad vocal habits, constant concert nights, not resting or caring enough... the reason can be anything but yes he was bad. I am very sorry to see my all time favourite singer like that.
Hopefully he and the band decide to alter vocal melodies and let him sing in his comfort zone. No matter what he has a beautiful, unique and distinct voice. He is still phenomenal studio singer. The issue is the live setting. When it is figured it out he will be awesome again.
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how great, unique, amazIng, and insightful of a singer he is
Oh, my friend, a post like this is like the Horn of Gondor for me. I hear it, I come running, and ardently accept the call to arms.
I was just watching Score last night and admiring his golden, lyrical sound. That's the James who exists forever in my mind and ears, and I can never help thinking wistfully that that's the James I want back. That's my Angel of Music.
I have endlessly defended his honor, running out onto the battlefield like Eowyn, or jumping in front of bullets for him like Eponine in Les Mis. My earlier posts here are full of this, even up to the point where people were saying I defended him "to a fault", and if I'm honest here I can't disagree. I won't ever stop, but I grew tired being quite that fervent, especially when I would be disappointed by my hero in the current days again and again.
My more recent post history is more realistic, less charging with a sword and more analysis of what may be going on. I've explained myself out and I don't need to repeat myself yet again. But I will say this:
I know he's still got it.
The voice is still his. It needs TLC, it needs therapeutic treatment, it needs rebalancing technique, it needs to be honored as the lyrical instrument of beauty that it is. Older? Of course, but that only means more of that special care. Nobody would argue that an antique violin can sound gorgeous in the right hands or that it should be put on a shelf in a museum forever, or only played sparingly and not to its fullest capacity.
That's my long, perhaps embarrassingly poetic (forgive me, it's too early, but not sorry and not editing :)) way of saying that I know he can do it, I have the utmost faith in him, my Angel of Music, my OG favorite singer of all time. And I can't wait to hear what he has in store for us in the coming months ahead. :angel: ✨
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I love James, he's possibly my all time favourite singer. I believe those Cameo performances were from 2021 while we were still in lockdown. He'd had plenty of time to rest as well as take his time getting the perfect recording for those clips. The great thing about them is that it shows he still has the ability to reach those notes. However when he returned to the stage in 2022 we can hear his performance was not even close to the level shown in those videos.
An interesting thing I noticed about those clips are that many of them are much slower than the original recording, I'm by no means a vocal expert but it's almost as if he needs to give his voice more time to transition from chest into the head register and slowing down the performance allows him to do that. Whereas live on tour they obviously can't slow down the songs to that degree which seems to result in James trying to push his chest voice higher or not being able to get his vocal positioning correct for his head voice. Resulting in that strange, almost choked sounding tone that's been plaguing him increasingly over the past few years. This is also why I think he tends to sound better on the slower, more ballady songs, for example on the images & words & beyond tour in 2017, he sounded fairly bad on the I&W stuff, however some of the performances of to live forever I've heard from that tour sounded pretty good. And that's a pretty slow song.
So that's my little theory, it's the speed that is fucking with him.
My other theory is that he needs to shave that goatee and let his hair be a natural colour, that's secretly what drains his vocal powers.
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Here we go again! There are several pro-shot recordings that support the evidence found in what you're calling "unkind cellphone clips". But I suppose their microphones "don't capture the human voice very well", either, eh?
Otherwise, yes, impressive. I'd just like to hear him do it night in, night out, live. Or at least something close to it. Simple as that, really :)
And at the correct tempo. Sorry OP, there is no way he will actually ever do this live. Nice try. I get it, you have a fixation on the guy but you need to come up for air.
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Nailing this section in the comfort of your home and doing however many takes as you need until you get one good enough to send as a Cameo is one thing.
Nailing this section in the context of a show where you’ve only got one chance is another thing.
Based on his recent performances, I have no doubt he’d struggle with this one live unless they tuned it down a half or whole step.
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Just wanna add, I love James's voice, he's perfect for Dream Theater, and he seems like a great bloke, too. My uppitiness is with respect to his live performances particularly in the last 10 years or so.
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He is, I met him twice and he is friendly and funny beyond belief.
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Nailing this section in the comfort of your home and doing however many takes as you need until you get one good enough to send as a Cameo is one thing.
Nailing this section in the context of a show where you’ve only got one chance is another thing.
Based on his recent performances, I have no doubt he’d struggle with this one live unless they tuned it down a half or whole step.
That's a fair point
Here we go again! There are several pro-shot recordings that support the evidence found in what you're calling "unkind cellphone clips". But I suppose their microphones "don't capture the human voice very well", either, eh?
Otherwise, yes, impressive. I'd just like to hear him do it night in, night out, live. Or at least something close to it. Simple as that, really :)
I betcha he can still nail it live, and he'll prove it to us on the next tour :D :tup
Oh, my friend, a post like this is like the Horn of Gondor for me. I hear it, I come running, and ardently accept the call to arms.
I was just watching Score last night and admiring his golden, lyrical sound. That's the James who exists forever in my mind and ears, and I can never help thinking wistfully that that's the James I want back. That's my Angel of Music.
I have endlessly defended his honor, running out onto the battlefield like Eowyn, or jumping in front of bullets for him like Eponine in Les Mis. My earlier posts here are full of this, even up to the point where people were saying I defended him "to a fault", and if I'm honest here I can't disagree. I won't ever stop, but I grew tired being quite that fervent, especially when I would be disappointed by my hero in the current days again and again.
My more recent post history is more realistic, less charging with a sword and more analysis of what may be going on. I've explained myself out and I don't need to repeat myself yet again. But I will say this:
I know he's still got it.
The voice is still his. It needs TLC, it needs therapeutic treatment, it needs rebalancing technique, it needs to be honored as the lyrical instrument of beauty that it is. Older? Of course, but that only means more of that special care. Nobody would argue that an antique violin can sound gorgeous in the right hands or that it should be put on a shelf in a museum forever, or only played sparingly and not to its fullest capacity.
That's my long, perhaps embarrassingly poetic (forgive me, it's too early, but not sorry and not editing :)) way of saying that I know he can do it, I have the utmost faith in him, my Angel of Music, my OG favorite singer of all time. And I can't wait to hear what he has in store for us in the coming months ahead. :angel: ✨
Well put, and I agree that his voice is like the Stratovarius that you discover in Vault 92 in Fallout 3. Aged, but still sounds beautiful
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He is, I met him twice and he is friendly and funny beyond belief.
Never got to meet James. Only MP and JR for me.
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Honestly didn't sound terrible until "not intending." I feel like they have not been transposing a whole or half step down or slowing tempos and at this age I think they really need to consider it. Maybe we won't ever hear some songs again because they don't sound as good a half or whole step down but it's necessary to help JLB out
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Didn't they drop the I&W songs down half a step for the 25th anniversary tour? I saw that show twice and sadly I didn't think it helped much.
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Every singer starts to lose at a certain age. Geddy, Rik Emmett and surprisingly Bono.
But I think what would help is a less aggressive tour schedule. Maybe with MP back, they can play larger venues less frequently.
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Jesus christ, again with the "cellphone recordings?" People aren't using their flip phone 2005 nokia to record these - they are using modern smartphones with very capable microphones(especially if they are using the newer iPhones/S23/24/Pixel phones).
Somebody said it earlier, but I will repeat it: James was not great last tour - period. It was a combination of a hard to sing setlist, and him struggling. I have full confidence that with an easier setlist that is more in line with where James can currently sing, and some rest, that James can absolutely sound great next tour, and for years to come.
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Jesus christ, again with the "cellphone recordings?" People aren't using their flip phone 2005 nokia to record these - they are using modern smartphones with very capable microphones(especially if they are using the newer iPhones/S23/24/Pixel phones).
Somebody said it earlier, but I will repeat it: James was not great last tour - period. It was a combination of a hard to sing setlist, and him struggling. I have full confidence that with an easier setlist that is more in line with where James can currently sing, and some rest, that James can absolutely sound great next tour, and for years to come.
The Rock in Rio pro-shot broadcast wasn't too kind on him either...
As for the bolded part, I feel like we've been saying this before every tour for years now, and nothing has gotten better, really.
Btw, I think he totally can do something about this, but it seems like whatever he's been focusing on hasn't been working.
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5G leads to off-key
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I just happened to read this link:
https://blabbermouth.net/news/billy-sheehan-explains-decision-to-enlist-whitesnakes-michele-luppi-to-assist-with-lead-vocals-during-mr-big-tour
I certainly hope that DT would never go this route, but Billy cites a guy by the name of Ron Anderson who sounds like the guy to go to for vocalists who are struggling. I wonder if JL had ever considered working with him? Crystal and Indiscipline, have either of you ever heard of Ron Anderson? If so, what's your take on him?
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I am going to try my best to keep this post as Kosher as possible while giving my honest opinion. It really is a balancing act when we talk about this. I have nothing negative to say about JLB the man, so everything I say below is about the music and solely the music.
At this point there is nothing defensible about the situation.
A good Cameo video is not a defense for the persistent struggles to deliver vocal lines with correct pitch and diction. It's not 'a few' instances of mishap. It is literally song after song, night after night of hardship. I am glad to hear that he is able to produce a good Cameo video at home but what does that have to do with a DT show?
I hate to even get into this again but I have to push back on even the hint of this 'argument' which won't die: cellphones are not responsible for his struggles. I am not accusing you of this but we have had some fans essentially say phones are responsible for changing pitches or distorting his words - an absurd proposition bordering on disinformation at this point. I don't want to indulge this fantasy more but I guess we are supposed to believe that his phone worked well when he was at home recording his Cameo video but when we are taking a video of him on stage, our phones are tricking us into thinking he is singing off key? Please, no.
The reality is that he is struggling to perform and has been for quite some time. The only thing that will make this discussion go away is for him to come out on the DT16 tour and put it to bed. Sing the songs well and most of us are going to be happy. I have hope for the next tour but it's going to take a solid performance on DT16 before anyone can mount a reasonable defense.
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yeah just have alternate melodies where needed prepared BEFORE going on tour.
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ron anderson died in 2021, so.. :-\
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who's Ron Anderson?
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who's Ron Anderson?
If you'd read the entirety of your own thread, you'd know :lol
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Elaborating on why it was necessary to bring Luppi into the picture, Billy said: "We're not faking anything, and we never have and never will. But the vocal cords are a little tiny, two little flaps of skin there, and done right, with correct training, you can be Tony Bennett and sing into your 90s. But a lot of singers, to hit a higher note, they just push harder. You can only do that for so long. I was very lucky to get vocal lessons from a [vocal coach] named Ron Anderson. And he was the number one guy… When Bono blows his voice out, they fly Ron Anderson in to fix him. He's the guy. Ozzy [Osbourne], Janet Jackson — his list of singers that he works with is an A list of all the best singers there are, everybody. And I went to him for quite a while and really increased my range, my accuracy, everything. I sang my whole life, but I never — like I played bass my whole life. I don't know what I'm doing, but I play it. Same thing with my singing — I sang my whole life. I didn't know what I was doing. But getting some instruction from Mr. Anderson was just amazing.
sorry for quoting you but using the article's words. a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do with only 1 tier of quoting
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Maybe with MP back, they can play larger venues less frequently.
Were they playing smaller venues with Mangini? At least in Boston, they were playing the same places they played when MP was in the band.
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Were they playing smaller venues with Mangini? At least in Boston, they were playing the same places they played when MP was in the band.
I only saw them with MM in Denver (so far!) but they were playing the smallest place usually here (Paramount) except for the most recent tour where they played a significantly larger venue.
When I was seeing them with MP on the East Coast they were playing much larger venues. Might just be a location thing, though. I have no idea where they played previously with MP in the Mile High City
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I only saw them with MM in Denver (so far!) but they were playing the smallest place usually here (Paramount) except for the most recent tour where they played a significantly larger venue.
I have no idea where they played previously with MP in the Mile High City
In Denver..
6 D's tour-The Paramount
ToT : The Paramount
8V:The Fillmore
SC-The Paramount
BC&SL-Buell Theater
When I was seeing them with MP on the East Coast they were playing much larger venues.
Where'd you see them on the East Coast?
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In Denver..
6 D's tour-The Paramount
ToT : The Paramount
8V:The Fillmore
SC-The Paramount
BC&SL-Buell Theater
Where'd you see them on the East Coast?
damn nice! so more or less the same sized places as with MM. 8VM tour at the Fillmore must have been fun thought, that's a much bigger room
On the East coast i've seen them mostly at either outdoor amphitheater places like this interesting place called Bald Hill (i think?) on Long Island (PN09), or indoor venues in NYC (Terminal 5 for PN08, also saw them at MSG open for Maiden!)
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also saw them at MSG open for Maiden!)
I saw them open for Maiden too!
(https://i.imgur.com/MCXu3xx.jpg)
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There may be some people out there who deny that JLB is still as good as ever. A few unkind cellphone clips (let us remember that cellphone microphones don't capture the human voice very well) of him on the last tour will never wash away how great, unique, amazIng, and insightful of a singer he is
Here is the evidence:
Our guy was cameo'd (is that the word) a request to do an a capella performance of "Innocence Faded". Here was the result; I believe they speak for themselves
https://youtu.be/QX0k8oRuiOY?si=TSkrAJUBgN1iVeV9
Sounds pretty damn good, doesn't it??
Here is the same video transposed over the original song
https://youtu.be/Y0_cRS5g8Qc?si=jRej3d1yekgFqQvT
It's absolutely I N S A N E that he is able to still sing a nearly pitch and tempo perfect rendition of the song decades after it was originally written and recorded.
If that's not impressive, I don't know what is! :yarr :metal
That edited version over the top of the original was pretty cool. I find it hard to watch him in this cameo videos though.
Honestly, we've talked and argued to death about his vocals, so I'm not sure a thread trying to defend him is really necessary, probably just brings up more of than same. We all love the guy and he's my second fav singer of all time. To me he is DT.
With your first line, well.....he's not as good as ever, but nor should he be really. I just think we need to just appreciate the ultimate DT lineup is making new music with James at the helm. As mentioned in the other thread, I also think his last tour was not great at all but we should all just move on from that and hope for a bounce back with the next one.
I can't wait to hear him on the material the boys have created for him too.
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Were they playing smaller venues with Mangini? At least in Boston, they were playing the same places they played when MP was in the band.
With MM, I saw them at:
- Nokia/Microsoft Theater (2x - ADTOE and View) - 7,100 seat capacity
- Wiltern Theatre (2x - I&W&B and DOT) - 4,000 seat capacity
- Orpheum Theatre (DT12) - ~2,000 seat capacity
- The Grove (Anaheim) (ADTOE) - 1,700 seat capacity
Not including when they opened for Maiden, the last few shows with MP:
- Greek Theatre (PN09) - 5,900 seat capacity
- Gibson/Universal Amphitheatre (3x - TOT (opening for Yes), SC and PN08) - ~6,100 seat capacity
- The Grove (Anaheim) (8VM) - 1,700 seat capacity
So...roughly the same (although the last show I saw on the View tour wasn't even close to capacity.
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I've only seen them with MM, 4 times. Along for the Ride Tour, The Astonishing Tour, Distance Over Time/Metropolis Part 2 Anniversary, View from the Top of the World Tour. Each was at the Chicago Theatre.
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This year will be 25 years since I started seeing DT, for what it's worth, they always played in Milan the big arena that Iron Maiden sell out in a couple of days. The only difference is how much packed the arena is (last time there was pleeeenty of room on the seats), but they never downgraded to a smaller venue, only once in 2002 they got a basically equivalent arena, only a tiny bit smaller (and I remember it was packed).
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Just like one clip of him botching something isn't proof that he's lost it, one clip of him nailing something isn't proof that he's still got it.
JLB doesn't need any defending. But the evidence is clear: on a night to night basis, and sometimes on a song to song basis, he is no longer what he once was, and any attempt to say claim that he is undiminished is futile.
BTW, no shame in not being what he once was. On any given night, he can be and is still fantastic. But he is no longer consistently great.
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I love James, he's possibly my all time favourite singer. I believe those Cameo performances were from 2021 while we were still in lockdown. He'd had plenty of time to rest as well as take his time getting the perfect recording for those clips. The great thing about them is that it shows he still has the ability to reach those notes. However when he returned to the stage in 2022 we can hear his performance was not even close to the level shown in those videos.
An interesting thing I noticed about those clips are that many of them are much slower than the original recording, I'm by no means a vocal expert but it's almost as if he needs to give his voice more time to transition from chest into the head register and slowing down the performance allows him to do that. Whereas live on tour they obviously can't slow down the songs to that degree which seems to result in James trying to push his chest voice higher or not being able to get his vocal positioning correct for his head voice. Resulting in that strange, almost choked sounding tone that's been plaguing him increasingly over the past few years. This is also why I think he tends to sound better on the slower, more ballady songs, for example on the images & words & beyond tour in 2017, he sounded fairly bad on the I&W stuff, however some of the performances of to live forever I've heard from that tour sounded pretty good. And that's a pretty slow song.
So that's my little theory, it's the speed that is fucking with him.
My other theory is that he needs to shave that goatee and let his hair be a natural colour, that's secretly what drains his vocal powers.
Welcome to the Forums!
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Just like one clip of him botching something isn't proof that he's lost it, one clip of him nailing something isn't proof that he's still got it.
JLB doesn't need any defending. But the evidence is clear: on a night to night basis, and sometimes on a song to song basis, he is no longer what he once was, and any attempt to say claim that he is undiminished is futile.
BTW, no shame in not being what he once was. On any given night, he can be and is still fantastic. But he is no longer consistently great.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. Have you seen the Cameo?
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We'll just have to agree to disagree. Have you seen the Cameo?
It's very different to sing something slower and at home where he can rerecord it a couple times if he wants and singing a song on stage at the regular tempo night in and night out. If James went in the studio, he could probably reasonably nail Innocence Faded - but him doing it live? Very different.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree. Have you seen the Cameo?
No, but seeing it won't change my opinion, or the history.
Have you seen all the other attempts he made at recording the Cameo that he had to delete because he didn't nail it?
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He was pretty bad last tour. Simple as that. You can't explain how bad he was using cellphone excuse. Other singers sound awesome via cellphone but James not?
Yeah, you can find a single video from the last tour from a phone that includes Devin Townsend singing incredible and JLB.... not so much (in fact, I even have one!). It has nothing to do with the camera other than the camera will likely pick up on things your own ears may not hear in the moment.
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Have you seen all the other attempts he made at recording the Cameo that he had to delete because he didn't nail it?
No, because presumably he either nailed it in the one take (what I choose to believe), or they were deleted and therefore nobody, myself included, could see it.
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No, because presumably he either nailed it in the one take (what I choose to believe), or they were deleted and therefore nobody, myself included, could see it.
OK, sure.
I don't understand this whole thing, but believe whatever you want. Hopefully he takes steps to be healthier or find a new vocal teacher or technique or something, and gives a better performance on the upcoming tour than he has recently.
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OK, sure.
I don't understand this whole thing, but believe whatever you want. Hopefully he takes steps to be healthier or find a new vocal teacher or technique or something, and gives a better performance on the upcoming tour than he has recently.
I'm confident he will. I think we're on the same page :tup
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*IF* he blows once again on this upcoming tour, it's time to say "C'Ya"! Let's hope for the best though.
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I'm confident he will. I think we're on the same page :tup
We are not.
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*IF* he blows once again on this upcoming tour, it's time to say "C'Ya"! Let's hope for the best though.
I highly doubt MP will fire JLB. I'm pretty confident the present lineup is the final one
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We are not.
Damn, RIP me
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do we get any inheritence?
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do we get any inheritence?
Here you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S16NbCeTz0
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Also, the cameo in the OP was recorded in 2021, before the release of AVFTTOTW and before the tour. It doesn’t prove anything about his vocal abilities in 2024. I don’t see any evidence to suggest he’s “back”, as you insist.
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i think it being the 20 year anniversary of his food poison helps. it's been a long road to recovery but he seems fully healed now. as other have mentioned in other threads, we're so back!
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i think it being the 20 year anniversary of his food poison helps. it's been a long road to recovery but he seems fully healed now. as other have mentioned in other threads, we're so back!
More like the 30 year anniversary.
20 years ago was the Train Of Thought tour, and James was excellent on it.
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i think it being the 20 year anniversary of his food poison helps. it's been a long road to recovery but he seems fully healed now. as other have mentioned in other threads, we're so back!
No.
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More like the 30 year anniversary.
20 years ago was the Train Of Thought tour, and James was excellent on it.
holy shit i can't math lmao. Yes, it's the 30 year anniversary. So if he sounded amazing on the 20th anniversary think about how much better he'll sound this year!
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holy shit i can't math lmao. Yes, it's the 30 year anniversary. So if he sounded amazing on the 20th anniversary think about how much better he'll sound this year!
Well, he sounded great in 2004, and then again in 2014, so we'll see!
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holy shit i can't math lmao. Yes, it's the 30 year anniversary. So if he sounded amazing on the 20th anniversary think about how much better he'll sound this year!
Are you actually a crazy person
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Are you actually a crazy person
Yes. We're on the same page again!
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OK
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As with all of his threads, we arrive at this question.
What is the point of this thread?
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Yes. We're on the same page again!
You good, bro?
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We'll just have to agree to disagree. Have you seen the Cameo?
May I ask why you feel a 30 second video in which he had unlimited takes to sing perfectly is a more accurate representation of his night-to-night touring abilities than the dozens of clips of him singing at live shows recorded over the past 2 years? I love JLB as much as anyone but I don't really see the point of putting your head in the sand like this.
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Just like one clip of him botching something isn't proof that he's lost it, one clip of him nailing something isn't proof that he's still got it.
JLB doesn't need any defending. But the evidence is clear: on a night to night basis, and sometimes on a song to song basis, he is no longer what he once was, and any attempt to say claim that he is undiminished is futile.
BTW, no shame in not being what he once was. On any given night, he can be and is still fantastic. But he is no longer consistently great.
This whole thread is futile.
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May I ask why you feel a 30 second video in which he had unlimited takes to sing perfectly is a more accurate representation of his night-to-night touring abilities than the dozens of clips of him singing at live shows recorded over the past 2 years? I love JLB as much as anyone but I don't really see the point of putting your head in the sand like this.
It's about the power of belief. I know that James gets a lot of flack from the less faithful fans but I know in my heart of hearts he still has it and can still prove it.
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This whole thread is futile.
I'm sorry I let you down
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It's also futile for anyone to argue that he must've done a million takes just because he could. Maybe he did two or three, maybe one, maybe fifteen. But assuming off the bat that he did more rather than fewer is just assuming the worst.
The point is, he has the notes. Consistent delivery is going to depend now upon whether he fixes his technique.
And I have no reason to believe that, with the 40th anniversary tour upon us, that he won't understand that they need to be at their best and give it his all.
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And I have no reason to believe that, with the 40th anniversary tour upon us, that he won't understand that they need to be at their best and give it his all.
Yeah, this is why I'm cautiously optimistic.
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Yeah, this is why I'm cautiously optimistic.
Agree. Hopefully though that doesn't add more pressure again to James.
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I feel like James responds to pressure.
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I feel like James responds to pressure.
That's fair, how much criticism would he have seen in his time and handled everything like a boss.
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It's also futile for anyone to argue that he must've done a million takes just because he could. Maybe he did two or three, maybe one, maybe fifteen. But assuming off the bat that he did more rather than fewer is just assuming the worst.
The point is, he has the notes. Consistent delivery is going to depend now upon whether he fixes his technique.
And I have no reason to believe that, with the 40th anniversary tour upon us, that he won't understand that they need to be at their best and give it his all.
thank you as always for your comforting words. James is going to deliver and it's going to be amazing!
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Do you work in sales by any chance?
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thank you as always for your comforting words. James is going to deliver and it's going to be amazing!
The naivete is strong here.
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Yeah, this is why I'm cautiously optimistic.
I agree with "cautious optimism". The rest is really up to him.
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And I have no reason to believe that, with the 40th anniversary tour upon us, that he won't understand that they need to be at their best and give it his all.
Do you think he didn't realise this on the previous tour? Do you think he was getting lazy or complacent, and just not trying hard enough? (Genuine question.)
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I feel like that quote from him that he can not sing like he used to is the first admission I've really ever heard from him that there might be an issue. At this point, all I want from him is to at least make an attempt beforehand to change what can change, be that alternate lines or whatever. But for me, him just kind of going for it on stage obviously didn't work and I would hate to see that again. If he comes across as being prepared with changes I can more easily live with the fact that he is not perhaps what he was.
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It's also futile for anyone to argue that he must've done a million takes just because he could. Maybe he did two or three, maybe one, maybe fifteen. But assuming off the bat that he did more rather than fewer is just assuming the worst.
I am in no way assuming that he took multiple takes. I'm just saying that the existence of this clip (which was from 2021, amirite?) doesn't necessarily mean anything because of the possibility of multiple takes.
And I have no reason to believe that, with the 40th anniversary tour upon us, that he won't understand that they need to be at their best and give it his all.
Then I wonder why he didn't feel that he needed to be at his best and give it his all on the last several tours already.
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Do you think he didn't realise this on the previous tour? Do you think he was getting lazy or complacent, and just not trying hard enough? (Genuine question.)
Not really. More like he may have been concentrating on the wrong things.
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I feel like that quote from him that he can not sing like he used to is the first admission I've really ever heard from him that there might be an issue. At this point, all I want from him is to at least make an attempt beforehand to change what can change, be that alternate lines or whatever. But for me, him just kind of going for it on stage obviously didn't work and I would hate to see that again. If he comes across as being prepared with changes I can more easily live with the fact that he is not perhaps what he was.
Where is this quote? I don't think I've seen it before
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https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58544.0
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More like he may have been concentrating on the wrong things.
I'm not sure what to make of this comment. I'm not sure I buy it, honestly. James has been a singer/performer for decades and he should be well aware of what to "concentrate" on.
Personally, I just feel that he was cooked. Not as in permanently, but I think he went out on Dreamsonic with nothing in the tank. He was mightily struggling on the previous leg in Europe. Not sure what the business behind Dreamsonic was, but maybe he just took one for the team. In a way, I'd kind of respect that.
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For what it's worth, I've actually felt like maybe that is in fact the case.
But as far as DreamSonic, yeah, I've seen some videos where he clearly struggled, but the show I was at was REALLY good all around.
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I have found that James goes through lulls as a vocalist and then will beat expectations when it really matters. Score is the classic example where he really brought the goods after a few years that were ifffy live. Another great example is when Mangini joined the band and he put in what I felt were some of his best live and studio performances between 2011 and 2014. I wouldn’t be surprised if we get something similar this year especially with getting a pretty substantial break from gigs between Dreamsonic and the London show in October. And as MP said, people are going to be dissecting that first show all over the Internet so I’m sure JLB is feeling the pressure in a way he hasn’t the last couple years.
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I have found that James goes through lulls as a vocalist and then will beat expectations when it really matters. Score is the classic example where he really brought the goods after a few years that were ifffy live.
I don't know. James was outstanding on both the Train Of Thought tour and the 8V tour.
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I don't know. James was outstanding on both the Train Of Thought tour and the 8V tour.
ToT tour was surprisingly awesome and he was so consistent. I don't agree about 8V tour. Yes, there were several dates he was awesome but overall it was mediocre. I find him outstanding during SC tour, especially 15th anniversary of I&W during that time.
The last time I think he was great is D/T tour back in 2014.
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ToT tour was surprisingly awesome and he was so consistent. I don't agree about 8V tour. Yes, there were several dates he was awesome but overall it was mediocre. I find him outstanding during SC tour, especially 15th anniversary of I&W during that time.
The last time I think he was great is D/T tour back in 2014.
2014 was such a great tour. He sounded great there. My favorite tour of their since the 90's.
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I don't know. James was outstanding on both the Train Of Thought tour and the 8V tour.
From what I remember (take that into consideration lol) it was like SDOIT to 8V was a steady improvement. Then SC forward has been a steady decline. Although there have been sweet spots. Like when I saw him on DOT he seemed better than on TA and the IWandB.
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2014 was such a great tour. He sounded great there. My favorite tour of their since the 90's.
True, most of the performances I've seen he was pretty great throughout the tour.
From the Astonishing tour and onwards, it seemed that he is in a steady decline.
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From what I remember, he sounded really good in 2014 and parts of 2019. 2016 and 2017 were pretty bad, as was 2022.
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I'm not sure what to make of this comment. I'm not sure I buy it, honestly. James has been a singer/performer for decades and he should be well aware of what to "concentrate" on.
Well by this I meant, speaking of the last year or two specifically, doing things like making sure he sang louder (pushing his lower register in the process) during BITS to prove he was not lip syncing, or adding too much ornamentation that was stylistically overdone in some songs, or trying to change melodies on the fly... Instead of working on his technical issues from the ground up. Every, literally every singer needs to do that for themselves once on a while.
But I agree with your assessment of "nothing in the tank" for Dreamsonic. Hopefully he's had a good rest and is doing all the right things for his voice ahead of what's coming.
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Not sure what the business behind Dreamsonic was, but maybe he just took one for the team.
I've thought of this too because it's in character for him. He went out to tour after his food poisoning and sang very demanding shows ever since no matter the condition of his voice, so of course he would go out now too. It's probably just another day on the job for him. I don't really like that he's like that, but he's not gonna change at almost 60 I guess!
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I've thought of this too because it's in character for him. He went out to tour after his food poisoning and sang very demanding shows ever since no matter the condition of his voice, so of course he would go out now too. It's probably just another day on the job for him. I don't really like that he's like that, but he's not gonna change at almost 60 I guess!
I think if anything his "taking one for the team" was when he kept on singing and touring on that injury when he should've been under the care of a good ENT and on vocal rest! He may be in a much better place now had he given himself that rehabilitative time then, but also the other side to it is that history could've looked very different for his career and for DT.
I think it was a no win situation and they did the best they could with it all. Now the Gandalf quote fits perfectly here: "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us". He only has today, and here's hoping he makes the healthiest decisions going forward.
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Gandalf sounds like a black metal band guy. I don't know who he is.
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Gandalf sounds like a black metal band guy. I don't know who he is.
Haha, lol not quite but I love it 😂 He's a character in the Lord of the Rings.
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Gandalf sounds like a black metal band guy. I don't know who he is.
The Wizard from Lord of the Rings.
Old guy, big gray hat.
Ian McKellan
“You shall not pass”
Hopefully one of those rings a bell :lol
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Gandalf sounds like a black metal band guy. I don't know who he is.
:facepalm:
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HOW MANY TIMES
I am Astounded :lol never change TAC!!!
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Sorry, had to :) (https://i.ibb.co/rf2Cyz8/blackmetal.jpg)
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:rollin :rollin :rollin
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FFS TAC
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Where's my Fun Committee president?! He's missing ALL the fun! :lol
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Gandalf sounds like a black metal band guy. I don't know who he is.
One Ring To Rule Them All
One Ring To Findom Them
One Ring To Bring Them All,
And In The Darknest BIND Them
(https://preview.redd.it/am-i-the-only-one-who-gets-labrie-vibes-from-thorin-v0-s93f2ns1a6va1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=8e4e8aeeb66aa83de67252faaed02e2c806eb61a)
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James...as a Dwarf?!? 😲 No no no, ELF! Elf prince, no less. When I see footage of the I&W days with that mane of red hair, all I can think is "Maedros"..
ETA We really need a "Tolkien fans" OT thread..!
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HOW MANY TIMES
I am Astonished :lol never change TAC!!!
FTFY ;)
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One Ring To Findom Them
50 Shades of LotR :zydar:
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50 Shades of LotR :zydar:
lmao I am glad someone caught it :)
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I've thought of this too because it's in character for him. He went out to tour after his food poisoning and sang very demanding shows ever since no matter the condition of his voice, so of course he would go out now too. It's probably just another day on the job for him. I don't really like that he's like that, but he's not gonna change at almost 60 I guess!
He'll be 61 next month.
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He'll be 61 next month.
61 years young
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61 years young
And still angelic.. ✨🔥
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Haven’t seen this talked about anywhere but this King Crimson cover featuring James seems to have been released today:
https://youtu.be/7ytm8HQ3CtA?si=cucs4zfn9WmxtNhq
James sounds good, very comfortable range for him to sing in.
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At this point, we can make a compilation of classic prog covers that feature James on vocals. Didn't he do A Pillow of winds by Pink Floyd just a while back? He also sang on several Rush covers over the years, I think. That would make for a damn good compilation. :tup
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Haven’t seen this talked about anywhere but this King Crimson cover featuring James seems to have been released today:
https://youtu.be/7ytm8HQ3CtA?si=cucs4zfn9WmxtNhq
James sounds good, very comfortable range for him to sing in.
Forgot about this. Yes, I heard it this morning. Not bad.
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Haven’t seen this talked about anywhere but this King Crimson cover featuring James seems to have been released today:
https://youtu.be/7ytm8HQ3CtA?si=cucs4zfn9WmxtNhq
James sounds good, very comfortable range for him to sing in.
It sounds AI generated
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My .02.
I read (and watched) the OP, and some of the commentary that followed.
The bottom line for me as a fan is this:
I highly respect JLB. And I feel he always gives a great performance on the studio albums. But live, he has ALWAYS been spotty. ALWAYS. I have seen Dream Theater more than most, but less than a lot of the hardcore fans here (16 times from 1998-present). It's always the discussion between my wife and friends - will we get the consistent JLB tonight, or the spotty one?
On the Distance Over Time tour, we got the really good James in San Francisco. I enjoyed it a lot. That followed the very spotty and cringey 2017 IAWAB show in Oakland. Then I went to Oakland for the AVFTTOTW tour. And he wasn't that good. The effort is there while performing. He's not mailing it in. But clearly, whatever approach he's taken to his live singing needs work. And I really think those who deny that are being silly. JLB struggles live, very much so now. And hopefully, he's working with someone now to help him sing more consistently.
Certainly, "the voice" is still there. He can hit and hold notes at home, in the studio, etc. But singing live, the travel, it's all very different for different people. For my money, before the MP reunion, I decided that I was done seeing Dream Theater because I was unsatisfied with the live vocals for the amount of money we now pay. I've seen DT 16 times, do I really need to see more? I wanted to retain some of the memories from the shows JLB was singing well. But now, with MP back, I'm fully on board to go again. But as a fan, I really want to see JLB, the sunset years of DT, be more consistent live. And I think he can.
I think part of it is working with different people, and finding a strategy that he's comfortable with and works. I think another part of it is flattening some things (as Ray Alder did with Fates Warning), and not going up so high to sing things. I also think the band needs to do him a favor. I don't know what tuning they are in, but guess it is standard. I hate when bands drop a full step, as it sounds like mud. But a half-step has to make some sort of difference. Experiment with dropping the 90s stuff a half step. See what still sounds good, and what doesn't. Whatever sounds good, play that. Whatever doesn't, don't play it anymore. Even if it is "Pull Me Under." Or, simply re-arrange stuff and do it differently. Whatever makes the entirety of the performance the most consistent.
The human voice is so very unlike any other physical instrument. I fully support JLB, and root for him. But I also would like to see both he and the band really work hard with and for each other, to make the vocals more consistent, and...also make sure they are very live. If that means MP and JP singing a lot more harmony, work on it.
At the end of the day, as long as the effort is there to make the live show, particularly the vocals, consistent, and we see that effort, I'll support JLB. He deserves that. He IS the voice of DT.
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It sounds AI generated
I think you might be right.
Same label as this https://www.guitarworld.com/news/junior-wells-ai-single-2023
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My .02.
They did downtune all of IAW + ACOS a half step for the 2017 tour, and that didn't help too much either...
Without trying to keep beating on the dead horse, there seems to be some pretty big technique issues with his singing nowadays that have nothing to do with the high vocal melodies on some songs. He's been very inconsistent and out of tune across his whole singing range. As some have said, there is some stuff he/the band can do to help fix those problems but it doesn't seem to be a priority for them. The 2022 tour was very bad in terms of his vocal delivery and we even had the whole Bridges "playback" section debacle. What ended up happening? They went on tour again immediately in 2023 with the same and even worse problems in the vocal department. They only started downtuning PMU a half step again almost towards the end of the tour run last year. It seems, to me, like they don't take that aspect of the live show too seriously to do something real about it.
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^Yup
I have been a fan of this band since 2002, and I do not remember a time where James was not getting a share of criticisms. And I have always been a big defender of him. He didn't always have the power, or the timber of his youth. But what I heard on dreamsonic was something new, he just wasn't on key. Even on stuff that should have been writing his pocket these days. It was bizarre and worrisome.
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I think part of it is working with different people, and finding a strategy that he's comfortable with and works. I think another part of it is flattening some things (as Ray Alder did with Fates Warning), and not going up so high to sing things. I also think the band needs to do him a favor. I don't know what tuning they are in, but guess it is standard. I hate when bands drop a full step, as it sounds like mud. But a half-step has to make some sort of difference. Experiment with dropping the 90s stuff a half step. See what still sounds good, and what doesn't. Whatever sounds good, play that. Whatever doesn't, don't play it anymore. Even if it is "Pull Me Under." Or, simply re-arrange stuff and do it differently. Whatever makes the entirety of the performance the most consistent.
You put my thoughts into words here. I 100% believe that the solution is to take the time (BEFORE TOURING!!!!!!!!!!) to carefully choose each song to be played, have JLB sing it in the studio, and re-tool the vocal melodies to help him out. They finally did that for PMU during the "Watch the sparrow falling" section and JLB sounds so good. https://youtu.be/mGLoxY7PbEc?si=O9EAXuBHrYu3e13u&t=164
It just sounds bad when he tries to wing it on stage. There's no shame in getting older, but at a certain point you have to realize that you can't take the same approach at 60 that you took when you were 30.
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I always loved James lower and calmer register. Alot of his performances outside of DT were he often sings more comfortably, he sounds amazing.
The last DT tour I saw was the astonising and honestly he ruined the concert for me. He sounded complety atrocious at times. Especially trying to sing the older songs. The band was killer though and MM at that time stole the show for me.
This is just a fact for me and not something debatable from my point of view. Of course there's reasons for it but that dosen't change the fact.
Is he better nowdays, I don't know since I haven't heard them live since then. That show left a mark on me so I haven't been bothered seeing them again.
I'll probably watch them on the next tour since of course i'm excited for what they're cooking.
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I missed them live for almost all of the 2010s, so I can't speak to the TA tour, but I thought he sounded really strong in 2019. I didn't think he was bad at the Chicago show of the View tour. He was kind of suffocated by all the guitar, but I thought he sounded reasonably good when he did poke through the mix. 6:00 seemed tough on him, but I anticipated that as soon as that drum fill hit, haha.
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I'm sure their focus is on the new album at the moment, as it should be, but they have plenty of time between now and the first show in October. Hopefully they find some time to go through the back catalog and determine which songs he'll have no issue with live, which songs need to be tweaked by tuning it down or altering the melodies, and which ones are completely out of the question,. There's no excuse not to at this point, otherwise it'll just be a repeat of the last tour.
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Just thinking out loud here but wasn't there a really rough point for him 20 or so years ago (well after the food poisoning incident) but then it got better and was fine for a while? What caused his performance to improve back then? This was when MP was in the band and since people say Score is a good performance maybe by that time he had already improved.
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Just thinking out loud here but wasn't there a really rough point for him 20 or so years ago (well after the food poisoning incident) but then it got better and was fine for a while? What caused his performance to improve back then? This was when MP was in the band and since people say Score is a good performance maybe by that time he had already improved.
The FII tour was usually pretty rough. Metropolis 2000 tour was hit or miss. Everything I’ve heard after that was gradually better and better until around 2015.
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I think you might be right.
Same label as this https://www.guitarworld.com/news/junior-wells-ai-single-2023
Assuming this isn't some kind of scam... I wonder why James would allow his voice to be used in AI like that.
Hopefully not to pay off his studio burger lunch bill!
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He doesn't have to allow anything. It keeps happening to other big artists - not just that AI versions of songs get uploaded to youtube, but to Spotify too - it must be in a legal gray area of some sort.
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The FII tour was usually pretty rough. Metropolis 2000 tour was hit or miss. Everything I’ve heard after that was gradually better and better until around 2015.
I thought ADTOE was fine. Along for the Ride tour was hit or miss so I agree with your timetable. But I do wonder what all of a sudden made it go from rough to better after Metropolis? Whatever he did back then to fix the issue he should do now if he can.
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I thought ADTOE was fine. Along for the Ride tour was hit or miss so I agree with your timetable. But I do wonder what all of a sudden made it go from rough to better after Metropolis? Whatever he did back then to fix the issue he should do now if he can.
He sounded fantastic during the 2011/2012 era, probably his best since '06. The problem now is his current rough patch (any clip i've seen from '22/23) is leagues below any rough patch he's had before. I'd be over the moon if he found even his Wacken 2015 voice back for the next tour, and I know that performance gets slated a lot.
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He sounded fantastic during the 2011/2012 era, probably his best since '06. The problem now is his current rough patch (any clip i've seen from '22/23) is leagues below any rough patch he's had before. I'd be over the moon if he found even his Wacken 2015 voice back for the next tour, and I know that performance gets slated a lot.
Yeah, Wacken was pretty tough. The show I saw on that tour was mostly fine but you can tell things were starting to become more uneven.
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Assuming this isn't some kind of scam... I wonder why James would allow his voice to be used in AI like that.
Hopefully not to pay off his studio burger lunch bill!
Pretty sure this is a real thing.
https://bravewords.com/news/king-crimson-members-share-new-studio-recording-of-the-crimson-classic-i-talk-to-the-wind-audio
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Pretty sure this is a real thing.
https://bravewords.com/news/king-crimson-members-share-new-studio-recording-of-the-crimson-classic-i-talk-to-the-wind-audio
The article still seems like boilerplate to me. No comment or any additional detail other than saying that the thing exists. King crimson's official accounts saying nothing about it. None of the accounts of the people presumably involved say anything about it. And if you click around the record labels page, there's a lot of really suspicious stuff on there.
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The article still seems like boilerplate to me. No comment or any additional detail other than saying that the thing exists. King crimson's official accounts saying nothing about it. None of the accounts of the people presumably involved say anything about it. And if you click around the record labels page, there's a lot of really suspicious stuff on there.
Todd Rundgren did share it on his Facebook page. He seems to be associated with the label in some way.
https://www.facebook.com/100044148833678/posts/pfbid025oVpSLAz2uWQ3F8GhcDCZD65M8aZtBvDNkwEWmaSK6VpYDBUWp9xQJgsNvzAr4Sgl/?app=fbl
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It could be "real" in the sense that it was legally made with permissions etc., but also an AI generation of JLB's voice (and others playing)
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Pretty sure this is a real thing.
https://bravewords.com/news/king-crimson-members-share-new-studio-recording-of-the-crimson-classic-i-talk-to-the-wind-audio
Also this article was 1000% written by AI lol
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Yuck! Whether AI or not, even his pretty voice couldn't save that horrid song. I closed it out halfway through because it was dreadfully repetitive, depressing and ultimately unlistenable. I've never listened to King Crimson before and now I never will.
If he did cover it, then why on God's green earth could he not pick something better? Is this sadly the direction he's going in, where he needs repertoire that's so boring and monotonous that it has only a five note range? :\ I really hope this is not reflective of the melodies being written for him right now.
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We all like what we like but this is a certfiable classic song from a classic album that many people would argue was the start of the whole prog moment. I'd assume if it's real that James probably digs it, he's part of that generation that grew up on this album.
But I have my doubts this isn't real considering there's no real promotion surrounding it.
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Yuck! Whether AI or not, even his pretty voice couldn't save that horrid song. I closed it out halfway through because it was dreadfully repetitive, depressing and ultimately unlistenable. I've never listened to King Crimson before and now I never will.
If he did cover it, then why on God's green earth could he not pick something better? Is this sadly the direction he's going in, where he needs repertoire that's so boring and monotonous that it has only a five note range? :\ I really hope this is not reflective of the melodies being written for him right now.
I agree that this is one of worst KC's song. Don't know if James pick it or not but there are better songs to fit James on that album. But I advice you to listen Epitaph from KC. One of the greatest of prog gen.
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I'm sorry but respectfully after even half of that song I don't think I could stomach anything from them. Admittedly though I don't truly identify as first and foremost a prog fan (there, I said it) and DT is really the anomaly on my list of favorite bands (of my top five, three are power metal). So it's really just me being subjective.
But that said, I loved his Led Zeppelin covers, so if he wants to do covers of old classics why not more things like that? At least they show his range and sensitivity, even as his voice is currently, without being so insufferably pedantic. The real problem would be if boring melodies are all he can sing anymore.
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That seems to be somebody else's project, so he wouldn't be in charge of picking songs himself.
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If he did cover it, then why on God's green earth could he not pick something better?
Probably because HE likes it.
I mean, I like it too. No accounting for taste, I guess.
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Yuck! Whether AI or not, even his pretty voice couldn't save that horrid song. I closed it out halfway through because it was dreadfully repetitive, depressing and ultimately unlistenable. I've never listened to King Crimson before and now I never will.
If he did cover it, then why on God's green earth could he not pick something better? Is this sadly the direction he's going in, where he needs repertoire that's so boring and monotonous that it has only a five note range? :\ I really hope this is not reflective of the melodies being written for him right now.
FWIW, I think In the Court of the Crimson King is one of their weakest albums. Though they never get to what I would call cheery (and repetitiveness is kind of a major theme for them).
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Prog/Louder Sound had this brief article on the KC cover album too. Whether he knew if it was real or AI, I promise you Jerry Ewing is not writing AI articles.
https://www.loudersound.com/news/listen-to-todd-rundgrens-version-of-king-crimsons-21st-century-schizoid-man
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I'm still not convinced the album itself isn't AI, but yeah, that article definitely isn't
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FWIW, I think In the Court of the Crimson King is one of their weakest albums. Though they never get to what I would call cheery (and repetitiveness is kind of a major theme for them).
I agree with this.
Also to completely write off an entire band based on a single cover of a song that isn't one of their greatest is extremely short-sighted. Especially considering they really don't have 2 albums that sound the same. They are (were) an ever evolving band.
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I'm sorry but respectfully after even half of that song I don't think I could stomach anything from them. Admittedly though I don't truly identify as first and foremost a prog fan (there, I said it) and DT is really the anomaly on my list of favorite bands (of my top five, three are power metal).
King Crimson is a band that you really can't judge off of one song. As others have said, no two albums by them are the same (except maybe Court and Wake). If you enjoy DT and power metal, you should listen to the songs One More Red Nightmare and Starless from their album Red before completely writing them off. King Crimson is one of the most important bands of the 20th Century.
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In the Court of the Crimson King is the one King Crimson album I like.
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I have tried to listen to a few King Crimson albums, and I find them all to be completely unlistenable. I cannot find anything positive to say about any of it.
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I have tried to listen to a few King Crimson albums, and I find them all to be completely unlistenable. I cannot find anything positive to say about any of it.
Pretty much this.
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That's been my experience as well. No doubt very important to the progressive rock/metal genre, and supremely talented musicians, but I actively dislike most of what I've heard by them.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=X_pDwv3tpug
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King Crimson is a Top 3 band for me. Love em, but they're definitely not for everyone. If you've listened to a few albums and determined they're not your thing, I respect that. But writing them (or any band for that matter) off based on a thrown-together cover song for a cash grab tribute album? That's very close-minded.
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In the Court of the Crimson King is the one King Crimson album I like.
It is a great progressive album.
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Agreed, it rules. There's many KC albums I prefer to it though
(https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/static/article/news/0/115550_0_wide_ver1611325662.jpg)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=X_pDwv3tpug
It’s funny that you posted this, because once everyone started dissing on them, I immediately thought of the Wetton/Bruford years and how much I’ve been meaning to explore that era of the band, because I’ve heard it’s the era that is most likely to be loved by the prog community.
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Agreed, it rules. There's many KC albums I prefer to it though
(https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/static/article/news/0/115550_0_wide_ver1611325662.jpg)
It’s at a point where I can’t tell if your posts are funny intentionally or not.
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King Crimson is a Top 3 band for me. Love em, but they're definitely not for everyone. If you've listened to a few albums and determined they're not your thing, I respect that. But writing them (or any band for that matter) off based on a thrown-together cover song for a cash grab tribute album? That's very close-minded.
Well if that doesn't show how much you can't know about someone based on a few posts on the internet... But if you want to judge me as "closed-minded" because of this, then I can't stop you. Far closer to the truth is that 1. I've got my head full of exploring/enjoying other bands currently and just don't have time/space/energy to fit something else in that doesn't represent what I currently enjoy, and 2. an incredibly full life right now with lots of things going on, both good and bad, and I need to surround myself with music that gives me wings, not brings me down.
That said, maybe some other time!
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Well if that doesn't show how much you can't know about someone based on a few posts on the internet... But if you want to judge me as "closed-minded" because of this, then I can't stop you. Far closer to the truth is that 1. I've got my head full of exploring/enjoying other bands currently and just don't have time/space/energy to fit something else in that is, subjectively, too boring, sad, and slow and doesn't represent what I currently enjoy, and 2. an incredibly full life right now with lots of things going on, both good and bad, and I need to surround myself with music that gives me wings, not brings me down.
That said, maybe some other time!
Maybe have a listen to 'Matte Kudasai'? That's a KC song from the 80's that, after all, has vocalist Adrian Belew mimicking bird calls on his guitar! It's very bright and airy; an entirely different experience compared to 'In the Court'.
That's the thing about King Crimson; they balance the light and the dark, consonance and dissonance in unique ways. You might be surprised by the fact that 'Two Hands' from the otherwise fairly unhinged 'Beat' album is one of the most beautiful love songs I know!
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To my ears he can barely sing anymore. During the last show he was out of tune on nearly every single note, and even with the loud sound it was very audible. The last albums have had extreme amounts of pitch correction, including numerous obviously robotic sounding phrases. He lost his pitch, and a singer without good pitch is not fit for the job. Bad pitch is not good, and pitch correction destroys both good and bad performances anyway.
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To my ears he can barely sing anymore. During the last show he was out of tune on nearly every single note, and even with the loud sound it was very audible. The last albums have had extreme amounts of pitch correction, including numerous obviously robotic sounding phrases. He lost his pitch, and a singer without good pitch is not fit for the job. Bad pitch is not good, and pitch correction destroys both good and bad performances anyway.
That's just, like, your opinion, man. :P
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Ah, one of my favorite subject matters to discuss (and one of the most vicious, as well).
The thin line that separates the objective from the subjective, as elusive as ever. I think there's a couple things we can all mostly agree upon:
1) James is probably one of the most recognizable voices in all of metal and progressive rock. It's not a matter of technique or even range (one of the most overvalued characteristics that people often talk about in metal music), it's a matter of timbre.
2) James has struggled quite a lot in his career as a singer in many ways. Being DT's singer is probably one of the hardest jobs to cover in the metal and progressive realms. Even though there are bands, nowadays, that surpass DT in sheer technicality (assuming we all agree upon what "technical" means, which in metal is usually the music that's hardest to perform), DT is still pretty much the "band of virtuosos" to the mainstream. The band with awkwardly long songs and with a singer that occasionally sings in them.
On the other hand, you have the food poisoning incident, the incredibly taxing touring schedules and the aging process. Time has not been very kind to James, although he has clearly and openly made all in his ability to keep up (I've listened to hours of podcasts of him basically talking about vocal technique and care. The man clearly knows his stuff, whether you like it or not).
3) His live performances, of late, have been mostly subpar. This is coming from a vivid defensor of James (I've sustained long and incredibly absurd discussions with people on the internet throughout the years), but clearly his stamina is not what DT's regular touring schedules asks of him (some of his performances I've listened from the last Dreamsonic tour were not good at all, and it pains me to say so), but that doesn't mean that DT should change singers (I'll elaborate on this in a bit), and clearly Petrucci knows this (the undisputed leader of today's DT, even though Portnoy is back on the fold).
Out with the objective, in with the subjective...
Even though James' faults of the recent years, DT would not benefit from letting him go. All these folks that keep hammering him and insisting that DT should fire him and get a proper replacement, clearly know more about the internal, personal and profesional affairs of a band than the people actually running the band.
Personal relationships are so fundamental to the inner workings of a band, that even though DT had a pretty successful run with Mike Mangini, they eventually gravitated towards their safe space once again: Mike Portnoy. Not because Portnoy's the better musician or drummer (which is something entirely subjective), but because the band's relationship with him is just in another level which will probably span out their most commercially successful record in years (not that their previous efforts haven't been successful, but DT's not a band that relies on commercial success to exist because they've built a fan base that's not going anywhere).
James has been the voice of Dream Theater for over 30 years, and basically has helped sculpt the sonic stamp that definitely makes the band still stand out over the dozens of DT clone bands and generic Progressive Metal nonsense with singers that timbrically sound so similar. I'm aware people will disagree with me on this (makes me think of the guy that runs the DT Archive YouTube channel that takes shots towards James every time he has the chance), but I stand my ground on this. A couple of things to take into consideration:
a) The guys in the band are basically in their 60s now. They are way past their prime in every sense of the word, although they are still successful and thriving in their respective areas (Petrucci's line of Music Man guitars are in an all-time high, for example). After almost 40 years of career, they are not just going to find another singer and have him fill up all the expectations of having another man fronting Dream Theater for the short time they have left (they can still keep going for more years, but they're pretty much approaching their endgame as an active, fiercely touring band). It's weird the strong effect James' voice has on the music he performs in. I can very much picture DT, with another singer, sounding like a DT cover band. That's not always a bad thing, but we're speaking of identity and James is a fundamental part of the band's identity.
b) I know that other bands have replaced their singers with younger counterparts (Journey comes to mind), but DT is not as big of a band as to magically work with another, younger member. Clearly everyone there (including Mike Portnoy) has profound relationships and connections with James, and if they feel comfortable with him still fronting the band (in both his good and bad days), that's pretty much what we're going to get.
I agree that James' tuning has become inconsistent, to say the least, but that doesn't mean he has lost his pitch. There's a lot of informal recordings of him singing a'cappella and pretty much nailing everything with very precise tuning. It's his technique I'm most worried about, because I feel that he has given up tone in exchange of lasting for 2 or 3 hours of live shows. James' high range is very compromised these days, and that's the reason his tone is not good when he approaches that zone, because he'd rather hit the note but not think about articulation and tone of the note (that's why his upper range sounds so nasal, because of the abuse of his nasal cavities to amplify his sound). His lower and mid ranges, however, are pretty much still phenomenal. I even recall one of his recent "Pull Me Under" performances in which he just said "fuck it" and sang the whole "watch the sparrow falling..." verse an octave lower. Sounds weird because I've been listening to that part on the high register for 20 years, but if it makes him feel good and helps him produce a better tone, I'm all for it. I've seen and heard that song live dozens of times, so I don't care if James doesn't get up there if that helps him get a better hold of his performance.
All in all, I don't see the band replacing him any time soon, but I feel it's healthy to focus on his strengths rather than his weaknesses. The band clearly takes that route every time they tour, and somehow I feel it's for the better.
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I think we all collectively have to give it up for that post. Well done. :tup
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a) The guys in the band are basically in their 60s now. They are way past their prime in every sense of the word, although they are still successful and thriving in their respective areas (Petrucci's line of Music Man guitars are in an all-time high, for example). After almost 40 years of career, they are not just going to find another singer and have him fill up all the expectations of having another man fronting Dream Theater for the short time they have left (they can still keep going for more years, but they're pretty much approaching their endgame as an active, fiercely touring band). It's weird the strong effect James' voice has on the music he performs in. I can very much picture DT, with another singer, sounding like a DT cover band. That's not always a bad thing, but we're speaking of identity and James is a fundamental part of the band's identity.
I agree with this and this has been my stance as well. Very hot take for which I'll probably get tomatoes thrown at: I consider James just as irreplaceable as John Petrucci.
In the literal sense of the word, anyone can be replaced. Petrucci is not the only one able to play guitar the way he does. Steve Harris is not the only one able to play bass the way he does. But some people are so fundamental to the band they're in that the physical replacement, the mere act of having someone else playing at the same level, doesn't mean anything when you value the weight of a specific fundamental band member in term of songwriting and personality. Petrucci is not the only one in the world that could play guitar in Dream Theater but there's no sense in having Dream Theater without him. And, after an entire carrer (minus the debut album) with James as the voice of DT, and this late in the game as you pointed out, there's no sense in replacing him without drastically altering the entirety of how DT songs sound like.
Sure, there must be dozens of singers out there who could sing the songs and sing them live as well, but none of them would feel right. And as you pointed out, they're not at a level where they can get away with a younger singer 'cause the sheer fame of their classics and nostalgia will carry the shows anyway. For better or worse James is the voice of DT and not even Freddie Mercury reincarnated would feel "right" in his place after having heard those songs sang by him and only him since 1992.
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Great post, Dark Lialink. The only thing I would say is that while I agree his timbre is unique and special and one of the draws of him, don't let it cloud the understanding of how hard JLB works to keep his voice good. Timbre isn't really something you have any control over, it's just naturally how you sound, but his energy, his stage banter, and the accuracy of his singing night after night, song after song, come from his dedication to his craft and his desire to keep himself in good shape. I remember on the bonus DVD for the Chaos in Motion DVD he mentioned running 5 kilos on the treadmill every day. I bet he's kept that up and is even in more shape now, if he was doing 5 kilos in 2009, imagine how much the man must run before the show each night in 2024?? Probably 15 kilos or more. Such dedication to his body and to us, the fans.
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He doesn’t run 15 kilos; that was some next-level math. His “banter” is cringeworthy. I also question how “grueling” the touring schedule is since they don’t tour every year and he gets a LOT of breaks during the show. Besides that, I agree with most of what D_L posted.
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What exactly is voice food?
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What exactly is voice food?
LOL, I meant to write "voice good". Will edit :lol
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What exactly is voice food?
Probably not shrimp…
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He doesn’t run 15 kilos; that was some next-level math.
I know he said it in an interview somewhere, but these days I don't think he runs at all, but rather speed walks at most. Dunno the distance, but being older, he's tapering off, not increasing his exercise regimen (which is to be expected).
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including numerous obviously robotic sounding phrases.
Um, No.
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It's weird the strong effect James' voice has on the music he performs in. I can very much picture DT, with another singer, sounding like a DT cover band. That's not always a bad thing, but we're speaking of identity and James is a fundamental part of the band's identity.
This, 💯
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Personally, I would be VERY HAPPY with a younger "JLB voice clone" who could actually sing the songs LIVE! James is not a frontman in any capacity so it would be NO LOSS. That being said, JLB has of course been an integral part of the band for over 30 years which I appreciate. BUT, if he can't get the job done anymore, so be it!
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I know he said it in an interview somewhere, but these days I don't think he runs at all, but rather speed walks at most. Dunno the distance, but being older, he's tapering off, not increasing his exercise regimen (which is to be expected).
Have you seen the Big Chungus video? Evidence he must be running nearly ten or more kilos a day
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Have you seen the Big Chungus video? Evidence he must be running nearly ten or more kilos a day
::) :facepalm:
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Personally, I would be VERY HAPPY with a younger "JLB voice clone" who could actually sing the songs LIVE! James is not a frontman in any capacity so it would be NO LOSS. That being said, JLB has of course been an integral part of the band for over 30 years which I appreciate. BUT, if he can't get the job done anymore, so be it!
I really don't know how I feel about this.
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Personally, I would be VERY HAPPY with a younger "JLB voice clone" who could actually sing the songs LIVE! James is not a frontman in any capacity so it would be NO LOSS. That being said, JLB has of course been an integral part of the band for over 30 years which I appreciate. BUT, if he can't get the job done anymore, so be it!
And if they ever got that "voice clone", I'd be all done with them.
But I don't see them as the kind of band who would just throw away their history like that. On the contrary. They're not simply a popular phenomenon out to make a quick dollar off nostalgia. They're far better than that. At least I hope they are.
If you want a "frontman" like you're talking about, just go see another band. That's not what this band is about. They're about virtuosity and uniqueness.
What James brings to the music goes far beyond these superficial and run of the mill complaints. His voice, for many intangible reasons, cannot be "cloned". I want him on the stage, not a mimic.
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I think that, no matter what they do, they are going to lose some fans. It’s just a matter of which choice loses how many.
*IF* JLBs voice recovers and he pulls out of his current slump, all of us would be ecstatic. But I don’t think of this as likely.
For me personally, I would not be happy with a JLB “clone” as some have put it. That to me, would seem like an attempt to simply hire a run of the mill soundalike so they could perform old songs like they used to sound with a pawn frontman. No…I hate that idea.
But I wouldn’t be adverse to bringing in someone who was different. Someone who had their own style, but was perfectly capable of performing old material with his own spin.
This is an unpopular opinion, and it is exactly the reason why I was a HUGE fan of Jeff Scott Soto fronting Journey, and why it seems most other people (band included) weren’t.
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But I wouldn’t be adverse to bringing in someone who was different. Someone who had their own style, but was perfectly capable of performing old material with his own spin.
But ONLY if they also kept James!!! Why not have two singers, like Helloween. The one who can step in gracefully and sing old songs in his own style, AND the original!
This way James could get much-needed breaks, and we wouldn't lose anything, but gain a second great singer who has his own style and is NOT just a mimic.
I think this is the only way I would accept a "new" singer in DT.
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It worked pretty great with Devin doing the hard bits in TSCO last tour. Ultimately I’m happy with James as long as he’s at least as good as 2019/2020. The 22/23 shows there was definitely something really wrong beyond the usual struggles with the higher sections. But I’m hoping it was just a blip.
If they ever got a new singer it would feel like a DT cover band. I know queensryche with Todd is popular around here judging from the QR thread but for me they just aren’t queensryche anymore without Geoff. The same goes for DT, JLB is too unique to be replaced.
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But ONLY if they also kept James!!! Why not have two singers, like Helloween. The one who can step in gracefully and sing old songs in his own style, AND the original!
Because in Helloween the two singers are the classic one, and the guy that carried the band for 20 years after the classic guy was fired.
Bringing another singer now would be basically saying "our singer can't cut it anymore so we need a younger one to help out".
True, some bands did hire a backup singer - usually it's Michele Luppi - but it's that, a backup singer, and I believe he plays keyboards in Whitesnake as well, off the top of my head I can't remember any other band that brought along a younger singer 'cause the oldest one has difficulties with performing a whole set.
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Bringing another singer now would be basically saying "our singer can't cut it anymore so we need a younger one to help out".
I was never the one who said he'd have to be "younger".
I meant two equally capable, equally seasoned singers. Nothing else would work.
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I just want a quality singer who won't change the DT sound BUT CAN ACTUALLY SING THE SONGS PROPERLY ON STAGE! Why hold on to someone that obviously can't hack it anymore? I'd love for JLB to prove me wrong, but I just don't think he can do it any longer.
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I just want a quality singer who won't change the DT sound BUT CAN ACTUALLY SING THE SONGS PROPERLY ON STAGE! Why hold on to someone that obviously can't hack it anymore? I'd love for JLB to prove me wrong, but I just don't think he can do it any longer.
So, then they become Journey?
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I just want a quality singer who won't change the DT sound BUT CAN ACTUALLY SING THE SONGS PROPERLY ON STAGE! Why hold on to someone that obviously can't hack it anymore? I'd love for JLB to prove me wrong, but I just don't think he can do it any longer.
I think we should wait to hear what happens on DT16 tour before concluding anyone is done, but in answer to your question: friendship and loyalty. If there is no meaningful improvement next time then, I think we'll have to concede your point.
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I think we should wait to hear what happens on DT16 tour before concluding anyone is done, but in answer to your question: friendship and loyalty. If there is no meaningful improvement next time then, I think we'll have to concede your point.
Right. I mean, he surely had a bad run to finish out the View tour, but he's been known to rebound.
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So, then they become Journey?
For the love of all that is ethical, I pray we never see that day. 😔
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Have you seen the Big Chungus video? Evidence he must be running nearly ten or more kilos a day
Well you would know better than Scotty after all.
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Well you would know better than Scotty after all.
thank you
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I can't remember any other band that brought along a younger singer 'cause the oldest one has difficulties with performing a whole set.
Mr.Big had help for Eric this current tour: https://youtu.be/tSvzhT65mHY?t=51
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Mr.Big had help for Eric this current tour: https://youtu.be/tSvzhT65mHY?t=51
Right, that's Michele Luppi, who does the same thing for Whitesnake. It's embarrassing for a band to have to do this.
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it's definitely embarrassing which is why DT will never stoop to the level and do it. Our guys are better
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Our guys are better
Correct!
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Have you seen the Big Chungus video? Evidence he must be running nearly ten or more kilos a day
I run around 10 kilos a day too! Would love to go for a run with James. :metal
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James isn’t running 6+ miles a day - cmon :lol
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Great post, Dark Lialink. The only thing I would say is that while I agree his timbre is unique and special and one of the draws of him, don't let it cloud the understanding of how hard JLB works to keep his voice good. Timbre isn't really something you have any control over, it's just naturally how you sound, but his energy, his stage banter, and the accuracy of his singing night after night, song after song, come from his dedication to his craft and his desire to keep himself in good shape. I remember on the bonus DVD for the Chaos in Motion DVD he mentioned running 5 kilos on the treadmill every day. I bet he's kept that up and is even in more shape now, if he was doing 5 kilos in 2009, imagine how much the man must run before the show each night in 2024?? Probably 15 kilos or more. Such dedication to his body and to us, the fans.
You obviously don't run but if James is running 15kms before each show, then it's no wonder why he is sounding the way he is these days.
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Day 647736644 of you guys still not noticing that Hovering Sojourn is a troll, and crystalstars is an insufferable toddler.
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that Hovering Sojourn is a troll, and crystalstars is an insufferable toddler.
Oh go look in the mirror.
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Day 647736644 of you guys still not noticing that Hovering Sojourn is a troll, and crystalstars is an insufferable toddler.
No need for that kind of a smartboy pose. Everyone here is fully equipped to make their mind on other posters and read/skip or engage/not engage with their posts accordingly. As easy as that. An example to help you understand this concept: I usually don't engage with HoJo's posts, as I don't see them generating a kind of discussion to which I can contribute in any meaningful way. But I do read them - I find quite a few of them amusing. If I didn't, I would just skip them.
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You obviously don't run but if James is running 15kms before each show, then it's no wonder why he is sounding the way he is these days.
You're right, I don't run. I thought there were more kilos in a mile too :lol After double checking the conversion rate you're right lmaoo
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So, then they become Journey?
God, I hope not
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No need for that kind of a smartboy pose.
Oh his antics are nothing new. He posts nothing at all for several months and then comes back with a useless quip like this. He's simply a troll.
The one-week bans are obviously not working in this case, mods... 🙄
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Day 647736644 of you guys still not noticing that Hovering Sojourn is a troll, and crystalstars is an insufferable toddler.
Please stop. This is your warning.
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Right, that's Michele Luppi, who does the same thing for Whitesnake. It's embarrassing for a band to have to do this.
See, I don’t see this as being that bad. If the singer is struggling, I would much rather have someone that helps with difficult parts. It’s that, listen to them struggle through it, using backing tracks or replace the lead singer. I think having a helper is the best of those options.
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Day 647736644 of you guys still not noticing that Hovering Sojourn is a troll, and crystalstars is an insufferable toddler.
I would like to know why somebody with an account that was pretty much dormant for over a decade suddenly feels the compulsion to log on to insult users he doesn't like.
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I would like to know why somebody with an account that was pretty much dormant for over a decade suddenly feels the compulsion to log on to insult users he doesn't like.
I think he just hates James, and his compulsion is to mindlessly insult his defenders.
Surely it's time for him to go and find a better use for his time.
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See, I don’t see this as being that bad. If the singer is struggling, I would much rather have someone that helps with difficult parts. It’s that, listen to them struggle through it, using backing tracks or replace the lead singer. I think having a helper is the best of those options.
I beg to differ on that. None of the options you've listed work, IMO (never been a fan of touring musicians to augment a band's sound, nor backing tracks). Best for the band to be more selective in the songs played, to down tune them, and to alter the vocal melodies to something that the vocalist can do, as well as for the vocalist to seek out help to figure out their weaknesses so that they can be addressed.
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I beg to differ on that. None of the options you've listed work, IMO (never been a fan of touring musicians to augment a band's sound, nor backing tracks). Best for the band to be more selective in the songs played, to down tune them, and to alter the vocal melodies to something that the vocalist can do, as well as for the vocalist to seek out help to figure out their weaknesses so that they can be addressed.
Right. There's no reason that James can't find a pocket for each song in which to operate, unless he truly is toast.
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You're right, I don't run. I thought there were more kilos in a mile too :lol After double checking the conversion rate you're right lmaoo
1 mile equates to 1.6 kms.
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1 mile equates to 1.6 kms.
yeah i had it backwards lol maybe he's only running a few kilos a day..
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I run zero miles per day, which somehow equates to zero kgms.
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I run zero miles per day, which somehow equates to zero kgms.
:metal
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Hopefully JLB makes a big comeback later this year and we can all put the issue and the thread to bed.
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yeah i had it backwards lol maybe he's only running a few kilos a day..
If he were doing 5kms back in the day, that's not a lot and certainly achievable and really usually only a 25-30 minute workout depending on pace.
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I run zero miles per day, which somehow equates to zero kgms.
0 kilograms and 0 kilometres! Impressive.
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0 kilograms and 0 kilometres! Impressive.
lol! Damn metric system.
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:lol It's Hojos fault for calling kms, kilos.
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I beg to differ on that. None of the options you've listed work, IMO (never been a fan of touring musicians to augment a band's sound, nor backing tracks). Best for the band to be more selective in the songs played, to down tune them, and to alter the vocal melodies to something that the vocalist can do, as well as for the vocalist to seek out help to figure out their weaknesses so that they can be addressed.
This. Adjust the vocal melodies to suit his current abilities, and get a vocal coach to make sure he's doing the best he can with what he still has.
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:lol It's Hojos fault for calling kms, kilos.
it's always my fault! :lol
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it's always my fault! :lol
I'm glad we agree
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never been a fan of touring musicians to augment a band's sound,
Ted Leonard added a lot to Transatlantic's live shows. Definitely the right decision.
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This. Adjust the vocal melodies to suit his current abilities, and get a vocal coach to make sure he's doing the best he can with what he still has.
Isn't he already doing this? On the last two tours people were speculating that one of the reasons he was struggling was in part because he was playing with the vocal melodies too much.
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This is one of the better performances I've seen from the Dreamsonic tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVJhybXTaHQ&ab_channel=Stefii714
Solitary Shell seems like a good fit for modern James, especially the verses, very comfortable for his ability. The higher parts in the chorus are a bit of a struggle and yes he's a bit flat, but it's not unlistenable and doesn't feel like he's hurting himself. Losing Time/Grand Finale is difficult to sing especially toward the end so I can forgive the off parts there but I actually think he did ok with it.
I don't really know where I'm going with this post I just watched this video and wanted to talk about it somewhere.
Does anyone have any other performances from 22' 23' where they think he sounded alright? Maybe I just think this is fine due to only having seen a couple of clips of 6:00 and Caught in a Web from this tour that just were a total mess.
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This is one of the better performances I've seen from the Dreamsonic tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVJhybXTaHQ&ab_channel=Stefii714
Solitary Shell seems like a good fit for modern James, especially the verses, very comfortable for his ability. The higher parts in the chorus are a bit of a struggle and yes he's a bit flat, but it's not unlistenable and doesn't feel like he's hurting himself. Losing Time/Grand Finale is difficult to sing especially toward the end so I can forgive the off parts there but I actually think he did ok with it.
I don't really know where I'm going with this post I just watched this video and wanted to talk about it somewhere.
Does anyone have any other performances from 22' 23' where they think he sounded alright? Maybe I just think this is fine due to only having seen a couple of clips of 6:00 and Caught in a Web from this tour that just were a total mess.
Great performance, the only thing I noticed was he sang "Learned to talk and talk on time" :lol
If that's the only flaw in an otherwise great performance, I think it goes without saying that our guy is still THE GUY
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i always hated that MP would really speed up SS live that would make the vocals sound rushed, but i really don't think that's a great performance even with the tempo being proper. It's like he's missing a lot of body and warmth in his vocals live. Something like fucking up a lyric like that doesn't bother me really :lol
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If that's the only flaw in an otherwise great performance, I think it goes without saying that our guy is still THE GUY
I concur! ✨
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I concur! ✨
Me as well. Definitely a good showing from JLB that night.
Honestly, at this point, with how many months have passed, I am done looking back on the past two (admittedly shaky) tours.
What matters is how the band sounds next. JLB, in particular, can only worry about the next album/show/tour album. These videos are the past, and there is nothing that he, or anyone in DT can do about it now.
That said, I refuse to discount the next tour because of the last. The band has given me too much over these past three decades, so they've earned that right in my book. I'm going to assume good things for the upcoming album and tour, and I'm pretty sure the band and James are doing the same.
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Me as well. Definitely a good showing from JLB that night.
Honestly, at this point, with how many months have passed, I am done looking back on the past two (admittedly shaky) tours.
What matters is how the band sounds next. JLB, in particular, can only worry about the next album/show/tour album. These videos are the past, and there is nothing that he, or anyone in DT can do about it now.
That said, I refuse to discount the next tour because of the last. The band has given me too much over these past three decades, so they've earned that right in my book. I'm going to assume good things for the upcoming album and tour, and I'm pretty sure the band and James are doing the same.
Great point, and I think the wind being at their backs with MP's return means all 5 of them, not just JLB, will be reinvigorated
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Isn't he already doing this? On the last two tours people were speculating that one of the reasons he was struggling was in part because he was playing with the vocal melodies too much.
He's always done adjustments on the fly, but I mean writing and rehearsing a new, consistent vocal part that he can reproduce night after night.
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All I know is that I pay attention to the live performances when I am at the live performances. (and listen to the official ones)
Of the 5 shows I saw the last 2 tours, I enjoyed them all immensely. James isn't like he used to be, but its still great for me. Even my
son, who has been critical of James had no complaints even at DreamSonic we were at where I thought it wasn't the best I had seen.
The shows are fun, the songs are enjoyable, and having someone else sing would just ruin it for me.
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He's always done adjustments on the fly, but I mean writing and rehearsing a new, consistent vocal part that he can reproduce night after night.
That's my take as well–the last few shows he worked on singing "Pull Me Under" in a lower register, and the results were immediately better. I think, had he rehearsed it like that before the tour, the song would've generated little to no debate.
Ray Alder is proof positive that fans will embrace a singer's soulful reinvention of a melody, as long as it's delivered confidently (and in key).
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Right. Even if he's barely tolerable on this next tour, some here will make it sound like it's the second coming of Robert Plant but geeemo's point is legit - it DOESN'T matter when you attend the show, most of his problems aren't as noticeable in that environment. It might suck later for the DVD vocal correction guy, but I've been to many DT shows and never been distracted by his vocals not being good and I expect to enjoy the next show as well.
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He's always done adjustments on the fly, but I mean writing and rehearsing a new, consistent vocal part that he can reproduce night after night.
Exactly. Making things up on the fly sometimes works, and sometimes sometimes doesn’t. Because without rehearsing it to make sure of what works and what doesn’t you’re playing the guessing game in front of your entire audience. You need to have these factors worked out in rehearsal, and find out what does work before you go out and present it to the general public.
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It could be me coming off of a decade of jam band touring but I like when they improvise things like that - even vocal melodies. It gives the performance uniqueness, it shows the artist is willing to play around with their art a bit. One of the things that turned me away from prog metal and metal in general in recent years is how static, clean, perfect, backing tracked, etc. everything about the show is. I like when there's mistakes, I like when the singer tries something weird and it does or doesn't work. It's performance art, and it doesn't have to be "good" 100% of the time to be interesting, and fun.
If I wanted a perfect recreation of the studio album, I would listen to the studio album, or watch some tiktok teen perfectly re-create it. Give me something interesting live! As someone else said, even if it's a "miss", in the moment you probably won't even notice anyway
EDIT: The most egregious example of this with bands for me has always been Between the Buried and Me. I love their studio stuff, and have seen them live a few times, but everytime it's like they're just there to perfectly recreate the album note-for-note (which is, to be clear, an impressive feat, just not necessarily what I am looking for live). Even worse, it feels like EVERY BTBAM tour is an "album anniversary" tour. When are we just gonna get a setlist with some surprises in it out of them? lol
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It could be me coming off of a decade of jam band touring but I like when they improvise things like that - even vocal melodies. It gives the performance uniqueness, it shows the artist is willing to play around with their art a bit. One of the things that turned me away from prog metal and metal in general in recent years is how static, clean, perfect, backing tracked, etc. everything about the show is. I like when there's mistakes, I like when the singer tries something weird and it does or doesn't work. It's performance art, and it doesn't have to be "good" 100% of the time to be interesting, and fun.
If I wanted a perfect recreation of the studio album, I would listen to the studio album, or watch some tiktok teen perfectly re-create it. Give me something interesting live! As someone else said, even if it's a "miss", in the moment you probably won't even notice anyway
EDIT: The most egregious example of this with bands for me has always been Between the Buried and Me. I love their studio stuff, and have seen them live a few times, but everytime it's like they're just there to perfectly recreate the album note-for-note (which is, to be clear, an impressive feat, just not necessarily what I am looking for live). Even worse, it feels like EVERY BTBAM tour is an "album anniversary" tour. When are we just gonna get a setlist with some surprises in it out of them? lol
I think when a singer has as much difficulty as LaBrie, they should just stick to what's on the album or some version that they can consistently pull off live.
I like seeing a perfect live performance of the studio version because it shows they can pull it off. But I can understand how that doesn't appeal to everyone. I wonder if Dream Theater will throw in some surprises and stuff now that Portnoy has returned.
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From what I have learned, the "power of belief" will ensure James will slay on this tour. That leaves open the question of course of why didn't that power of belief work on the last tour?
But in all seriousness, MP will have a doable setlist for James. He doesn't have blinders on.
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From what I have learned, the "power of belief" will ensure James will slay on this tour. That leaves open the question of course of why didn't that power of belief work on the last tour?
But in all seriousness, MP will have a doable setlist for James. He doesn't have blinders on.
What would be considered doable at this point?
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What would be considered doable at this point?
Exactly.
I love DT and love JLB...but, for whatever reason he hasn't been able to maintain his voice like a lot of other older singers. I get that they do a ton of shows and the songs he's singing are pretty taxing on his vocal chords....but, there's a definite drop in ability. I think he manages the shows well...but...I wish I knew vocalist terminology to help me describe what I'm trying to say.....his annunciation and I don't know...tone or whatever....to me....is lazy. There are times he doesn't even try to hit the same way he pronounces/sings certain words on the records....which then sounds off and his pitch/tone is flat and he holds it out longer....to me it all sounds lazy when he does that.
I've seen them live the last few times they've come through and honestly JLB sounded fine for the shows and he's not what detracted from the shows IMO. It was how freaking LOUD Petrucci's guitar was and has been. It renders JMX all but useless and even took away from MM as he seemed turned down. I really hope that gets addressed because it was/is out of hand.
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What would be considered doable at this point?
That's a great question. Some would say the answer is focusing on newer/recent material instead of the classic songs with the very high pitched sections, but on the last tour he was struggling a lot with The Alien, one of their latest singles. It's not just the high stuff he struggles with.
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Exactly.
I love DT and love JLB...but, for whatever reason he hasn't been able to maintain his voice like a lot of other older singers. I get that they do a ton of shows and the songs he's singing are pretty taxing on his vocal chords....but, there's a definite drop in ability. I think he manages the shows well...but...I wish I knew vocalist terminology to help me describe what I'm trying to say.....his annunciation and I don't know...tone or whatever....to me....is lazy. There are times he doesn't even try to hit the same way he pronounces/sings certain words on the records....which then sounds off and his pitch/tone is flat and he holds it out longer....to me it all sounds lazy when he does that.
I've seen them live the last few times they've come through and honestly JLB sounded fine for the shows and he's not what detracted from the shows IMO. It was how freaking LOUD Petrucci's guitar was and has been. It renders JMX all but useless and even took away from MM as he seemed turned down. I really hope that gets addressed because it was/is out of hand.
That's the issue for me; I don't give a rat's ass if they tune down, or sing in a lower octave, or reformulate the vocal lines. I'm a Kiss fan for fuck's sake; Paul hasn't sung Detroit Rock City using the album melody in like 100 years. BUT... when I saw them in Bridgeport on the Dreamsonic tour, he was REALLY pitchy at times; I don't think it's unfair to ask that whatever line you DO sing, sing it in tune.
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That's the issue for me; I don't give a rat's ass if they tune down, or sing in a lower octave, or reformulate the vocal lines. I'm a Kiss fan for fuck's sake; Paul hasn't sung Detroit Rock City using the album melody in like 100 years. BUT... when I saw them in Bridgeport on the Dreamsonic tour, he was REALLY pitchy at times; I don't think it's unfair to ask that whatever line you DO sing, sing it in tune.
I'm with both of you here.
I'll see your Paul Stanley point and raise you Robert Plant (who hasn't sung what's on the record since mid '72).
I don't care if he talks his way through the verses, sings the chorus an octave lower, or even splits the vocals with MP, but when he opens his mouth and sings, if the note is 50 cents flat over and over again, it's gonna make me cringe.
If I've said it one, I've said it a dozen times...come up with a melody that you can sing with confidence. Who wouldn't want that?
There's a reason Plant began singing "Over the Hills and Far Away" completely differently within months of the release of Houses of the Holy–the dude couldn't go three words without his voice cracking.
And here is, fifty years later, still writing and recording vital music. As is Ray Alder. There's a way to do this even if your fastball is long gone.
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Robert Plant is, I think, an excellent example of being mindful of your voice's capabilities as you age. His live performances now, while of an entirely different character than Zep, still have so much quality and character and are a joy to witness.
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I've seen them live the last few times they've come through and honestly JLB sounded fine for the shows and he's not what detracted from the shows IMO. It was how freaking LOUD Petrucci's guitar was and has been. It renders JMX all but useless and even took away from MM as he seemed turned down. I really hope that gets addressed because it was/is out of hand.
The guitar was very loud when I saw them last June. I'm definitely wearing earplugs next time I see them.
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I don't care if he talks his way through the verses...
I don't know...I think I'd almost rather hear LaBrie sing at his current ability than use the David Lee Roth method.
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Making things up on the fly sometimes works, and sometimes sometimes doesn’t. Because without rehearsing it to make sure of what works and what doesn’t you’re playing the guessing game in front of your entire audience. You need to have these factors worked out in rehearsal, and find out what does work before you go out and present it to the general public.
I agree here. He needs to have a ready, rehearsed and polished performance to present to the audience. Not only because it's just good musicianship to do so, but because much of that audience is hyper critical, today more than ever.
I like seeing a perfect live performance of the studio version because it shows they can pull it off.
This! You just succinctly worded what I have been trying to say for months.
I love DT and love JLB...but, for whatever reason he hasn't been able to maintain his voice like a lot of other older singers.
There's a good reason for that, and it's the injury. I've used the analogy before of an athlete playing on a bum knee. He's working around a physical instrument and through damage that was sustained, scar tissue, etc. It's a difficult situation to be working through, something that by nature is so unreliable. And I give him a lot of credit for not just giving up. But he really can't be compared to "other older singers" for that reason.
I think he manages the shows well...but...I wish I knew vocalist terminology to help me describe what I'm trying to say.....his annunciation and I don't know...tone or whatever....to me....is lazy. There are times he doesn't even try to hit the same way he pronounces/sings certain words on the records....which then sounds off and his pitch/tone is flat and he holds it out longer....to me it all sounds lazy when he does that.
And when you say it sounds "lazy" here, you would be right. This is not to say that he is lazy (on the contrary!). But what you're hearing is a bad vocal habit he has fallen into, namely, the fall of the soft palate. Without raising the soft palate along with taking the breath before singing the note, that note is not gonna happen - especially the higher the note in question is. It will also cause the tone to sound strident and flat. So you could say he has fallen into a lazy palate habit, and the only correction for this is retraining.
The shows are fun, the songs are enjoyable, and having someone else sing would just ruin it for me.
💯
This is the bottom line.
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I'm with both of you here.
I'll see your Paul Stanley point and raise you Robert Plant (who hasn't sung what's on the record since mid '72).
I don't care if he talks his way through the verses, sings the chorus an octave lower, or even splits the vocals with MP, but when he opens his mouth and sings, if the note is 50 cents flat over and over again, it's gonna make me cringe.
If I've said it one, I've said it a dozen times...come up with a melody that you can sing with confidence. Who wouldn't want that?
There's a reason Plant began singing "Over the Hills and Far Away" completely differently within months of the release of Houses of the Holy–the dude couldn't go three words without his voice cracking.
And here is, fifty years later, still writing and recording vital music. As is Ray Alder. There's a way to do this even if your fastball is long gone.
You've mentioned Ray a couple times and I think he's absolutely the proper comparison for JLB. They both 'grew up' in the same era, they both recorded vocals with ridiculous range in their day. They're both still touring (though, Ray far less than JLB). You can argue Ray abused his voice far worse than JLB with smoking all those years. So, let's call it somewhat even in terms of wear/tear for the sake of argument.
I just finished my gym time and Fate's Warning 'Live over Europe' (2018) got me through the session. What immediately struck me was the was Ray tackled his early material knowing full well he no longer can deliver the range that was recorded. Songs from No Exit, Perfect Symmetry, Parallels - he delivers amazing performances on each without shouting/yelling/trying to belt out the original melody/key. Since the two bands are intimately familiar w each other, specifically MP, I would really hope he's taking a page from how FW delivered their earlier material and trying to find a similar path for the early DT songs. Honestly, I really feel despite their history, MP may be exactly what JLB needed in terms of live performance. We'll see, but that's my hope.
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Exactly.
I love DT and love JLB...but, for whatever reason he hasn't been able to maintain his voice like a lot of other older singers. I get that they do a ton of shows and the songs he's singing are pretty taxing on his vocal chords....but, there's a definite drop in ability. I think he manages the shows well...but...I wish I knew vocalist terminology to help me describe what I'm trying to say.....his annunciation and I don't know...tone or whatever....to me....is lazy. There are times he doesn't even try to hit the same way he pronounces/sings certain words on the records....which then sounds off and his pitch/tone is flat and he holds it out longer....to me it all sounds lazy when he does that.
I've seen them live the last few times they've come through and honestly JLB sounded fine for the shows and he's not what detracted from the shows IMO. It was how freaking LOUD Petrucci's guitar was and has been. It renders JMX all but useless and even took away from MM as he seemed turned down. I really hope that gets addressed because it was/is out of hand.
+1000. JP’s ego needs to take a major step back. I’d like to hear all the instruments. There’s no reason at all for them to crank it that high, it’s not a death metal show. :tdwn There’s no way the loudness complaints haven’t reached their ears, no pun intended.
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It baffles me when I can go see HAKEN and Symphony X and ‘smaller’ bands like that and thier mix is spot on where everyone is featured……then go to a DT show and get crushed with nothing but guitar and a hint of keyboard.
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I was watching a live video of the last half of 6DOIT from the DreamSonic tour. It made realize how much the background vocals of both JP and MP helped JLBs vocals in a live setting.
I am now realizing how much of a task was put on JLB in the vocal department when MP left.
JLBs vocals are amazing and he is doing his best to fill in for the lost aspects. But, when I was listening to that video, all I could think was, if MPs vocals where there, just how much better that live performance would be.
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+1000. JP’s ego needs to take a major step back. I’d like to hear all the instruments. There’s no reason at all for them to crank it that high, it’s not a death metal show. :tdwn There’s no way the loudness complaints haven’t reached their ears, no pun intended.
Do you really think it's an ego thing? Petrucci always seems so humble and shit in all the interviews I've seen him in.
I was watching a live video of the last half of 6DOIT from the DreamSonic tour. It made realize how much the background vocals of both JP and MP helped JLBs vocals in a live setting.
I am now realizing how much of a task was put on JLB in the vocal department when MP left.
JLBs vocals are amazing and he is doing his best to fill in for the lost aspects. But, when I was listening to that video, all I could think was, if MPs vocals where there, just how much better that live performance would be.
What about all the parts where LaBrie is the only one singing? That makes up the vast majority of the vocals.
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It baffles me when I can go see HAKEN and Symphony X and ‘smaller’ bands like that and thier mix is spot on where everyone is featured……then go to a DT show and get crushed with nothing but guitar and a hint of keyboard.
I blame the guy running the in house mix on the soundboard. He's either completely deaf (likely) or just mixing it the way JP wants it (also likely) or they are both deaf (another possibility).
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I just assume as musicians get older and can't hear anymore their sound (both live and in studio) will get worse. I imagine hearing loss plays a role in James' pitch struggles as well.
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I blame the guy running the in house mix on the soundboard. He's either completely deaf (likely) or just mixing it the way JP wants it (also likely) or they are both deaf (another possibility).
:lol
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I've seen DT 9 times and have never had the problems others are describing with volume or mix. When I saw them on the D/T tour, Myung was really audible.
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I've seen DT 9 times and have never had the problems others are describing with volume or mix. When I saw them on the D/T tour, Myung was really audible.
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.ybrTaBY7g0v9bu_EwZTUOQHaEK?w=303&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=1.5&pid=1.7)
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I've seen DT 9 times and have never had the problems others are describing with volume or mix. When I saw them on the D/T tour, Myung was really audible.
Same. I thought the live mixes were great...heard every note clearly which cant be said for some of the bands they toured with.