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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: JeopardousRaven on August 13, 2023, 01:34:41 PM
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I noticed there isn't a dedicated thread for this album in the pinned Index of Albums & Songs Thread, which is weird because most fans can typically agree this is one of the band's best releases.
I often go back and forth over whether or not LaB or LSFNY is my favorite DT live album. Whichever one you prefer, we can all agree that this is an essential live release for DT fans. In addition to the incredible setlist it's got a ton of cool gems like the 20-minute Beyond This Life, the extended Hollow Years solo, Instrumedley, another unique Rudess solo spot, and one of only 2 (I believe??) live performances of Disappear. I would say that 2004-2006 is where Dream Theater's live performances peaked.
So what do you all think about this album? What are your thoughts about each member's performances, the setlist, and how it ranks among other Dream Theater live releases?
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Back in '16 this Budokan-release of Hollow Years was my very first DT song. It blew my mind and since then I became more and more overwhelmed (read: obsessed) throughout the years. So therefore this album is a special one to me.
It's more of a favorite than Live Scenes, but mostly because they were two studioalbums further in... and with Six Degrees and Train of Thought, two brilliant one's as well. Besides, those Japanese know how to rate prog metal.
Personally Live at Luna Park and Fourth Wall are my favorite live albums, but I'll consider Budokan to be a classic as well...
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The first new release and tour I was a fan for was Train of Thought. I remember the moment I got L@B, both on CD and DVD. What a beautifully shot, recorded, and mixed live album. I daresay it's their best, even if Score is my "favorite." I watched and listened to this album a LOT back in the day. The band is on fire and the setlist is a fantastic mix of all seven albums up to that point. LOVE IT!
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I don't really care much about medleys anymore, but back when I first got into DT (around early 2010), I listened to Instrumedley a lot. Live Scenes was my first live DT album, though, and then Score became a favorite of mine, but Budokan is amazing too :metal
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This version of Beyond This Life is my all time favorite DT moment from anything. My favorite *full show* is Score. But man, that performance of BTL just completely blows my mind every time.
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Back in '16 this Budokan-release of Hollow Years was my very first DT song. It blew my mind and since then I became more and more overwhelmed (read: obsessed) throughout the years. So therefore this album is a special one to me.
It's more of a favorite than Live Scenes, but mostly because they were two studioalbums further in... and with Six Degrees and Train of Thought, two brilliant one's as well. Besides, those Japanese know how to rate prog metal.
Hollow Years '04 is definitely a DT favorite for me. Are you familiar with the '09 version they played on the BC&SL tour? It's very similar to the '04 version but features the demo verse structure.
Personally Live at Luna Park and Fourth Wall are my favorite live albums
Interesting, I feel like these don't receive the love they deserve. JLB killed it on these (in fact I would say that 2004-2014 was a golden era for the cheeseman) and they both have amazing setlists. I'd love to have been a DT fan from 2011-2014 and receive ADTOE, DT12, Luna Park, Happy Holidays, and Fourth Wall all within 3-4 years.
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I don't really care much about medleys anymore, but back when I first got into DT (around early 2010), I listened to Instrumedley a lot. Live Scenes was my first live DT album, though, and then Score became a favorite of mine, but Budokan is amazing too :metal
I'm also not the biggest fan of medleys (except for the In the Cage medley Genesis did in the 80s) but Instrumedley was definitely fun on the first couple of listens to try and pick out which songs they included. It was a test to see how good of a fan you were :lol
I enjoy Score but the setlist holds it back a few places for me. I think if I had to rank every DT live album (not including the YtseJam releases) it would go:
1. Live Scenes from New York
2. Live at Budokan
3. Once in a LiveTime (I'm a Sherinian-era fanboy, what can I say)
4. Live at Luna Park
5. Score
6. Breaking the Fourth Wall
7. Chaos in Motion
8. Live at the Marquee
9. Distant Memories
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I noticed there isn't a dedicated thread for this album in the pinned Index of Albums & Songs Thread, which is weird because most fans can typically agree this is one of the band's best releases.
I often go back and forth over whether or not LaB or LSFNY is my favorite DT live album. Whichever one you prefer, we can all agree that this is an essential live release for DT fans. In addition to the incredible setlist it's got a ton of cool gems like the 20-minute Beyond This Life, the extended Hollow Years solo, Instrumedley, another unique Rudess solo spot, and one of only 2 (I believe??) live performances of Disappear. I would say that 2004-2006 is where Dream Theater's live performances peaked.
So what do you all think about this album? What are your thoughts about each member's performances, the setlist, and how it ranks among other Dream Theater live releases?
I've been on record as saying that I feel 'Score' is the band's peak, but Budakon is right up there. I LOVE the setlist and think the band really shines throughout.
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Hollow Years '04 is definitely a DT favorite for me. Are you familiar with the '09 version they played on the BC&SL tour? It's very similar to the '04 version but features the demo verse structure.
I'm not, but surely will look it up tonight.
Interesting, I feel like these don't receive the love they deserve. JLB killed it on these (in fact I would say that 2004-2014 was a golden era for the cheeseman) and they both have amazing setlists.
Couldn't agree more.
I enjoy Score but the setlist holds it back a few places for me. I think if I had to rank every DT live album (not including the YtseJam releases) it would go:
1. Live Scenes from New York
2. Live at Budokan
3. Once in a LiveTime (I'm a Sherinian-era fanboy, what can I say)
4. Live at Luna Park
5. Score
6. Breaking the Fourth Wall
7. Chaos in Motion
8. Live at the Marquee
9. Distant Memories
My ranking isn't that much worth, because it's constantly interchangeable, depending on the most recents vinyl spin, but if I would gave a shot right now, it will be:
1) Live at Luna Park
2) Breaking the Fourth Wall
3) Live at the Marquee (best Surrounded performance ever from LaBrie)
4) Live at Budokan
5) Score
6) Live Scenes from New York
7) Chaos in Motion
8) Distant Memories
9) Once in a Livetime (I can't get over the fact they split (and therefore screwed) A Change of Seasons and the artwork is so poor)
Now that became clear that there won't be a live-release of the recent tour, I honestly think that's a shame. Distant Memories is well-produced, but the whole conceptalbum already had his release in the early days and there isn't that much new. At Wit's End is wonderful to have, but would immediately change it for the setlist of last tour.
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My first introduction to DT was live on the TOT tour (I had heard Metropolis for the first time like 2 hours earlier), so I've I've a huge soft spot for LAB. That aside, it's probably tied for my favorite live concert (RHCP Live at Slane Castle is the other).
LAB had so many cool moments.
- Hollow Years solo
- Extended BTL with that drum/keyboard battle into those few minutes of pure shred
- The drum solo with the fan (bonus material)
- 3 hours
- Instrumedley
- Cool instruments like Chapman Stick and JPs dual neck for Solitary Shell
- I'm the outlier, but I liked JP's haircut in that period
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This is a great DVD. High production value, great performance, fantastic setlist, legendary venue - what's not to like?
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I've added this thread to the Albums & Songs Thread index!
As for LAB itself, it was the band's newest release as I became a fan, and I remember being on vacation during the Christmas-time of 2004, and while I was in California, we went to a Best Buy and they had a copy of LAB on 3CD and I had to get it. I remember listening to it on the trip back, playing the CDs on my portable Sony CD Walkman on the airplane trip home, and it got a LOT of spins. I think I also remember getting the 2DVD set on that same trip because I vaguely recall watching it on our portable DVD player as well.
For the longest time, LAB was my favorite live DT album/video, everything was top-notch between the song choices, the performances, and the atmosphere. I think LSFNY ties with it these days, but both are good in their own ways. I should try and buy the BD and give that a watch sometime soon as it's been quite some time since I've watch that (or any) DT concert video!
-Marc.
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Personally Live at Luna Park and Fourth Wall are my favorite live albums
Interesting, I feel like these don't receive the love they deserve. JLB killed it on these (in fact I would say that 2004-2014 was a golden era for the cheeseman) and they both have amazing setlists. I'd love to have been a DT fan from 2011-2014 and receive ADTOE, DT12, Luna Park, Happy Holidays, and Fourth Wall all within 3-4 years.
Let me tell you, 2011-2014 WAS amazing to be a fan. Specifically, I think James had a unique golden era during that time. Yeah, he was up there in years and didn't always hit the high notes like he used to but I also noticed him putting a lot more "feel" into his performances. I never actually loved his Budokan performance that much, mainly because it was too perfect. I think he tried so hard to hit everything perfectly, he didn't always have the grit and rasp that certain sections called for. In 2011, he was doing all of that. In fact, as evident on the Happy Holidays album, when he gets to the high note on Another Day, his voice sounds like it's straining a bit which actually makes it more emotional to me.
The show I saw him, they played Caught in a Web and NAILED IT...except for the part where he sings "Try to push me 'round" his voice cracked, and rather than stop and regather, he powered through it which gave me chills.
Those strengths definitely carried through to the BTFW time period.
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Personally Live at Luna Park and Fourth Wall are my favorite live albums
Interesting, I feel like these don't receive the love they deserve. JLB killed it on these (in fact I would say that 2004-2014 was a golden era for the cheeseman) and they both have amazing setlists. I'd love to have been a DT fan from 2011-2014 and receive ADTOE, DT12, Luna Park, Happy Holidays, and Fourth Wall all within 3-4 years.
Let me tell you, 2011-2014 WAS amazing to be a fan. Specifically, I think James had a unique golden era during that time. Yeah, he was up there in years and didn't always hit the high notes like he used to but I also noticed him putting a lot more "feel" into his performances. I never actually loved his Budokan performance that much, mainly because it was too perfect. I think he tried so hard to hit everything perfectly, he didn't always have the grit and rasp that certain sections called for. In 2011, he was doing all of that. In fact, as evident on the Happy Holidays album, when he gets to the high note on Another Day, his voice sounds like it's straining a bit which actually makes it more emotional to me.
The show I saw him, they played Caught in a Web and NAILED IT...except for the part where he sings "Try to push me 'round" his voice cracked, and rather than stop and regather, he powered through it which gave me chills.
Those strengths definitely carried through to the BTFW time period.
I agree with this. But I will also say that 2000-2004 and 2011-2014 were the best years of my DT fandom.
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Let me tell you, 2011-2014 WAS amazing to be a fan. Specifically, I think James had a unique golden era during that time. Yeah, he was up there in years and didn't always hit the high notes like he used to but I also noticed him putting a lot more "feel" into his performances.
The acoustic version of both The Silent Man and Beneath the Surface - with those gorgious strings in the back - are pure gold by LaBrie. And they fit the setlist of Luna Park perfectly. Petrucci's backvocals also add that little extra emotion to the songs. Brilliance...
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Personally Live at Luna Park and Fourth Wall are my favorite live albums
Interesting, I feel like these don't receive the love they deserve. JLB killed it on these (in fact I would say that 2004-2014 was a golden era for the cheeseman) and they both have amazing setlists. I'd love to have been a DT fan from 2011-2014 and receive ADTOE, DT12, Luna Park, Happy Holidays, and Fourth Wall all within 3-4 years.
Let me tell you, 2011-2014 WAS amazing to be a fan. Specifically, I think James had a unique golden era during that time. Yeah, he was up there in years and didn't always hit the high notes like he used to but I also noticed him putting a lot more "feel" into his performances. I never actually loved his Budokan performance that much, mainly because it was too perfect. I think he tried so hard to hit everything perfectly, he didn't always have the grit and rasp that certain sections called for. In 2011, he was doing all of that. In fact, as evident on the Happy Holidays album, when he gets to the high note on Another Day, his voice sounds like it's straining a bit which actually makes it more emotional to me.
The show I saw him, they played Caught in a Web and NAILED IT...except for the part where he sings "Try to push me 'round" his voice cracked, and rather than stop and regather, he powered through it which gave me chills.
Those strengths definitely carried through to the BTFW time period.
Yes completely agree. What's not to love about Budokan you ask? I'll tell you. I don't love the setlist. James isn't great. JP is too shreddy. It's filmed weird in places. I don't have any of those complaints about those 2 Mangini-era DVDs.
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One of my issues with LALP is that JP's tone is drowned under tons of chorus effect, but I have to agree that this one and BTFW are amazing :metal
I like Distant Memories too, but I wish they didn't record SFAM in full again.
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Let me tell you, 2011-2014 WAS amazing to be a fan. Specifically, I think James had a unique golden era during that time. Yeah, he was up there in years and didn't always hit the high notes like he used to but I also noticed him putting a lot more "feel" into his performances.
The acoustic version of both The Silent Man and Beneath the Surface - with those gorgious strings in the back - are pure gold by LaBrie. And they fit the setlist of Luna Park perfectly. Petrucci's backvocals also add that little extra emotion to the songs. Brilliance...
JP doesn't have a great voice but it works so perfectly here!
This version finally got me to appreciate The Silent Man. Don't know why I never did buy I'm glad I finally came around. Also, Beneath the Surface is criminally underrated!
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Also, Beneath the Surface is criminally underrated!
So true! To me, it's amongst their very best ballads of all...
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What's not to love about Budokan you ask? I'll tell you. I don't love the setlist. James isn't great. JP is too shreddy. It's filmed weird in places. I don't have any of those complaints about those 2 Mangini-era DVDs.
I agree with some of that.
Set list: All in all, I do like it. I like how heavy it was. It fit the album they were touring for and fit the tour as a whole. If I were going to nitpick, the only things I wasn't crazy about would be: (1) Hollow Years. Yeah, I know people seem to love that version for some reason. I agree that JP's solo here is better than on the album. But that doesn't elevate what is otherwise a bottom 5 DT song for me. (2) Instrumedly. I get it. It's fine. Just not interested. (3) Jordan's keyboard solo. I don't begrudge Jordan getting a solo spot. And I love his playing. But for a live release, a keyboard solo just isn't something I'm interested in revisiting. But, again, these are just nitpicks. I'm fine with the set overall, and there was a lot that was wonderful, much of which has already been discussed (but I will also give a shout out to SOC and ITNOG). In retrospect, with them deciding to play SDOIT as an entire song on Score, the inclusions of parts of it also seemed superfluous here. But in context of this particular set, they did work well.
James: He sounded a little shaky at times, and the band had mentioned that they were ALL exhausted due to the scheduling, which had a bigger impact on James as singer than anyone else. But that said, he was still pretty solid overall. No real complaints. I've always been bummed that he flubbed the lyrics on such an emotional song as Disappear. But given the exhaustion factor and the fact that it wasn't in the set for any other shows and hadn't had the muscle memory that other songs had, it's understandable.
JP being shreddy: Eh, yeah, but so what? It was their all out metal tour.
Filmed weird in places: Yeah, I'll give you that. But I didn't find it distracting except in one or two spots. And a lot of concert videos have similar issues when you take into account an entire show.
All that said, while this isn't my favorite release, it's still really, really good. I haven't revisited it in awhile, but really should. I played it a LOT for a long time. Just as TOT and Octavarium were nice contrasts to one another and made for a great back-to-back listen, I often did the same with L@B and Score.
Some of the things I liked that haven't been discussed a lot: The pair of FII songs right in the middle were really, really good. As was the overlooked OAMOT, which shot up in popularity for me as a result of this recording.
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2003 - 2006ish represents the band at a peak as far as their playing abilities and performance quality. I have some nitpicks with the Budokan setlist, but the level of performance they put in cannot be denied and it pretty much represents Dream Theater at the height of their powers for me. I would put Luna Park and Breaking the Fourth Wall on a similar pedestal for the Mangini era and I probably prefer the setlists on both, but they represent the band in a different phase of their careers and serve different purposes so I don't really compare them.
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One thing I don't particularly enjoy on this one are the weird lightning choices for James. I get it, this was their "metal" tour, but it looks just wrong. Don't know hoy to explain it well, but I think you might get what I'm trying to say.
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Personally Live at Luna Park and Fourth Wall are my favorite live albums
Interesting, I feel like these don't receive the love they deserve. JLB killed it on these (in fact I would say that 2004-2014 was a golden era for the cheeseman) and they both have amazing setlists. I'd love to have been a DT fan from 2011-2014 and receive ADTOE, DT12, Luna Park, Happy Holidays, and Fourth Wall all within 3-4 years.
Let me tell you, 2011-2014 WAS amazing to be a fan. Specifically, I think James had a unique golden era during that time. Yeah, he was up there in years and didn't always hit the high notes like he used to but I also noticed him putting a lot more "feel" into his performances. I never actually loved his Budokan performance that much, mainly because it was too perfect. I think he tried so hard to hit everything perfectly, he didn't always have the grit and rasp that certain sections called for. In 2011, he was doing all of that. In fact, as evident on the Happy Holidays album, when he gets to the high note on Another Day, his voice sounds like it's straining a bit which actually makes it more emotional to me.
The show I saw him, they played Caught in a Web and NAILED IT...except for the part where he sings "Try to push me 'round" his voice cracked, and rather than stop and regather, he powered through it which gave me chills.
Those strengths definitely carried through to the BTFW time period.
I also really like those moments you can hear JLB (or any singer really) struggle. On the version UAGM on Happy Holidays, JLB has a little voice crack on the final "waiting for time to disappear" which just makes the performance feel so much more real. It's a shame there aren't many of those moments on official live releases post-LSFNY, I much prefer when a band takes a 'warts and all' approach.
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Well, considering James' voice has been a target of criticism for most of DT's history, it makes sense that they wouldn't really want to showcase low moments for him. I've seen criticism of MP around here for picking shows to release where James doesn't sound very good, I imagine more often than not they try to avoid that.
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Well, considering James' voice has been a target of criticism for most of DT's history, it makes sense that they wouldn't really want to showcase low moments for him. I've seen criticism of MP around here for picking shows to release where James doesn't sound very good, I imagine more often than not they try to avoid that.
Yes clearly MP and JLB have had their ups and downs but I don't think MP would try to sabotage JLB like that. The release where JLB sounds the worst is probably LA 1998 and that was obviously a really cool show to release regardless since they had Bruce Dickinson join them on stage for a few songs. The other one during the MP years where JLB sounds poor/weird is CiM and that was just an all around poorly mixed/low budget release.
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as a purist who strive to perfection, I really can't imagine Portnoy would pun intended have let them release a gig where LaBrie was bad...
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All I'm saying is that the criticism is out there. I don't think MP tried to sabotage JLB either, I think it's more that he was always trying to think from the fan perspective and select shows with some historic significance or with rare songs and sometimes those happened to be JLB on off nights. On the other hand, the current DT really seems to strive for perfection and I can't imagine them releasing anything that made someone look bad no matter how cool the circumstances around the show were. it's just a different approach.
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I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.
But having said that, I think there were fewer opportunities to get a professional recording done in the early days, and Portnoy had a hardline stance of “we’re not fixing anything. So if you’re the one that’s off…you own it.” Thus, the reason that OIALT is considered one of their poorest live albums. I think I heard somewhere that JLB wanted to fix some area on that album (as they had for LATM) and Portnoy basically said, “forget it. It’s going out the way we played it.” And that was that.
Now, I’m paraphrasing and oversimplifying a bit, but the way I remember it, that was pretty much the way it went down and it was always a sore spot between those two.
Also, I seem to remember that that was also the reason they cancelled a night or two before the Score show. JLB wanted to be well rested before the big night, and he knew they weren’t going to allow him to fix any mistakes later. So they took a few nights off so JLB could be in his best possible form.
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I think there was one or two minor fixes for LoB and/or Score. MP mentioned it in his drum cam commentary for one (or both) of those.
Whatever he was talking about, I think it was a line or two that James didn't feel good about so he actually recorded the overdub that night in the mobile recording truck or something.
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I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.
He sure as hell didn't protect him, I'll tell you that. I was aghast when I heard the vocals to OIALT. I couldn't believe a proper live album would sound that awful vocally in this day and age. I didn't know why, honestly. I didn't connect the dots to MP at the time.
When the Ytsejam releases started and the released the LA '98 show, it was obviously MP who picked the show, and my first thought was I could not believe he did that to James. He totally hung him out to dry. I think that was my first sense that MP and James were having some sort of...issues.
Also, I seem to remember that that was also the reason they cancelled a night or two before the Score show. JLB wanted to be well rested before the big night, and he knew they weren’t going to allow him to fix any mistakes later. So they took a few nights off so JLB could be in his best possible form.
They cancelled the Detroit show about a week before the NYC show. While MP was being honest about cancelling it because of James, I thought again, he laid it at his feet.
I was convinced the Boston show, which was the night before the NYC show was going to be sacrificed. Thank God it wasn't. It was a brilliant show, and James was on fire.
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I noticed there isn't a dedicated thread for this album in the pinned Index of Albums & Songs Thread, which is weird because most fans can typically agree this is one of the band's best releases.
I often go back and forth over whether or not LaB or LSFNY is my favorite DT live album. Whichever one you prefer, we can all agree that this is an essential live release for DT fans. In addition to the incredible setlist it's got a ton of cool gems like the 20-minute Beyond This Life, the extended Hollow Years solo, Instrumedley, another unique Rudess solo spot, and one of only 2 (I believe??) live performances of Disappear. I would say that 2004-2006 is where Dream Theater's live performances peaked.
So what do you all think about this album? What are your thoughts about each member's performances, the setlist, and how it ranks among other Dream Theater live releases?
I'll be in the minority here but I'll preface it by saying I don't think the band has ever released a mediocre live album because there's never been a mediocre DT performance. Everything they've released is great - Budokan included.
That being said: where does it rank amongst DT live releases? Again, no one is going to agree with me but I think their best live release is Breaking the Fourth Wall. Budokan should be top 3 so in that sense I agree it's one of the best, but it's not the same level for me as 4th Wall or even Luna Park. Budokan has an edge is in set list. There were a couple of unique things you mentioned that really stand out. But overall I think the band reached a new level of musicianship and tightness in the MM era. It's just been on a different level for me since 2011.
By the time the 4th Wall came around, they had more time to marinate with MM and were firing on all cylinders creatively and technically. I don't think they've fallen far from that level but I don't think we'll ever be there again because of age. Had that setlist been a little better, maybe more people would agree with me. Plus you also have to factor in that everyone (me included) thinks I&W was the best album. Hence, the further you go from that point, the more difficult it is to convince people you're at the top regardless of performance. So even if the band releases a 2025 performance on par with anything they've ever done (most creative setlist, unique production, sounds tight etc) automatically they're facing an uphill battle to convince people it's among the best.
Again, Budokan is awesome, but I just think they've matured since then.
Just my 2c.
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Again, no one is going to agree with me but I think their best live release is Breaking the Fourth Wall. Budokan should be top 3 so in that sense I agree it's one of the best, but it's not the same level for me as 4th Wall or even Luna Park.
As mentioned above, I'll agree totally. Fourth Wall and Luna Park are my favorites as well. The reason I like Luna Park just that little more, is that it's brought-out in a beautiful artbook, with extra songs and the documentary. Both of them aren't released on vinyl and this I think is a darn shame. Since Awake is probably my #1, I like the Fourth Wall setlist better. But having that said, I also think Scenes from a Memory simply's being released too much, with New York, Distant Memories and partly on the Fourth Wall...
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I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.
He sure as hell didn't protect him, I'll tell you that. I was aghast when I heard the vocals to OIALT. I couldn't believe a proper live album would sound that awful vocally in this day and age. I didn't know why, honestly. I didn't connect the dots to MP at the time.
When the Ytsejam releases started and the released the LA '98 show, it was obviously MP who picked the show, and my first thought was I could not believe he did that to James. He totally hung him out to dry. I think that was my first sense that MP and James were having some sort of...issues.
I honestly don't think that Labrie on OIALT sounds that bad. My only complaint of it is that it cuts a ton of songs I love like UAGM and Anna Lee. What are the specific areas that are poor? I can definitely get why LA 1998 is reviled, especially the ending of The Crimson Sunset. To my ears, Labrie on OIALT is leaps and bounds ahead of LA 1998.
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I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.
He sure as hell didn't protect him, I'll tell you that. I was aghast when I heard the vocals to OIALT. I couldn't believe a proper live album would sound that awful vocally in this day and age. I didn't know why, honestly. I didn't connect the dots to MP at the time.
When the Ytsejam releases started and the released the LA '98 show, it was obviously MP who picked the show, and my first thought was I could not believe he did that to James. He totally hung him out to dry. I think that was my first sense that MP and James were having some sort of...issues.
I honestly don't think that Labrie on OIALT sounds that bad. My only complaint of it is that it cuts a ton of songs I love like UAGM and Anna Lee. What are the specific areas that are poor? I can definitely get why LA 1998 is reviled, especially the ending of The Crimson Sunset. To my ears, Labrie on OIALT is leaps and bounds ahead of LA 1998.
I honestly haven’t listened to it since it first came out. So I couldn’t tell you.
I just remember that I was near my peak of DT fanboy fervor. I had already been a fan for 6 years, I was the head of a CD department at a local department store, and I pimped DT at every opportunity. (When FII first came out, I was announcing new releases on the overhead once an hour, and putting WAY too much emphasis on DT and everyone thought I was nuts) And when OIALT came out, I was over the moon that my favorite band in the whole wide world finally had a full length live album.
I played it twice, and I was too embarrassed to ever play it again. The store demo is still the only copy I own. I would never pay money for it.
But I will say this…there are a precious few saving graces. That version of Peruvian Skies with the Have a Cigar and Enter Sandman nods is brilliant, and one of the few tracks on that release that James sounds great on. I do pull that track out from time to time.
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I'm not one to nitpick or criticize the band much at all, but I agree with everything Jammin just said. OIALT is just not a good performance. Distractingly so. But back on topic, I gave L@B a partial listen/watch while prepping a room for paining tonight, and I realized it has been FAR too long to not have listened to and watched that. What a great live set. Still not anywhere near my favorite, but that's only because my favorites are SO good, and not because L@B is in any way lacking.
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Again, no one is going to agree with me but I think their best live release is Breaking the Fourth Wall. Budokan should be top 3 so in that sense I agree it's one of the best, but it's not the same level for me as 4th Wall or even Luna Park.
As mentioned above, I'll agree totally. Fourth Wall and Luna Park are my favorites as well. The reason I like Luna Park just that little more, is that it's brought-out in a beautiful artbook, with extra songs and the documentary. Both of them aren't released on vinyl and this I think is a darn shame. Since Awake is probably my #1, I like the Fourth Wall setlist better. But having that said, I also think Scenes from a Memory simply's being released too much, with New York, Distant Memories and partly on the Fourth Wall...
Agreed. I hope to never hear/see Scenes again on a live release. We have a LOT of it. Specifically, I am maxed out on Spirit Carries On.
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I think the L@B setlist *did* protect JLB quite a bit. The BTL jam, nearly 30 minutes between the two instrumentals, a keyboard solo, extended guitar solo, and quite a few songs that were already pretty lengthy with the instrumental sections (TDS, ES, ToT, ITNoG). It wasn't a heavy workload for him given the 3+hour show time.
I watched a shit-ton of L@B in '05/'06 as I was exercising 5 days a week on a stationary bike. Then, I transitioned to watching a shit-ton of Score.
This is a great DVD. High production value, great performance, fantastic setlist, legendary venue - what's not to like?
I agree with you ... except PMU is what's not to like on this. I also love the camera work.
P.S. OIALT is virtually unlistenable - horrible setlist, and James is awful (understandable, though).
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L@B is probably my favorite live album. It's shot beautifully and has some killer playing. The setlist isn't perfect but it's more perfect than a lot of other live releases.
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I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.
He sure as hell didn't protect him, I'll tell you that. I was aghast when I heard the vocals to OIALT. I couldn't believe a proper live album would sound that awful vocally in this day and age. I didn't know why, honestly. I didn't connect the dots to MP at the time.
When the Ytsejam releases started and the released the LA '98 show, it was obviously MP who picked the show, and my first thought was I could not believe he did that to James. He totally hung him out to dry. I think that was my first sense that MP and James were having some sort of...issues.
I honestly don't think that Labrie on OIALT sounds that bad.
Agreed, I've never quite understood the level of criticism of his vocals on that album. There's still a 'fullness' to his voice that he started to lose as time went on. Of course it's not near his best performances, but there many that are a lot worse IMO.
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OIALT was my first DT live album. It's still one of my favorites. Go figure.
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I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.
He sure as hell didn't protect him, I'll tell you that. I was aghast when I heard the vocals to OIALT. I couldn't believe a proper live album would sound that awful vocally in this day and age. I didn't know why, honestly. I didn't connect the dots to MP at the time.
When the Ytsejam releases started and the released the LA '98 show, it was obviously MP who picked the show, and my first thought was I could not believe he did that to James. He totally hung him out to dry. I think that was my first sense that MP and James were having some sort of...issues.
I honestly don't think that Labrie on OIALT sounds that bad.
Agreed, I've never quite understood the level of criticism of his vocals on that album. There's still a 'fullness' to his voice that he started to lose as time went on. Of course it's not near his best performances, but there many that are a lot worse IMO.
Yeah. Far from his best performance buy I really don't think it was that bad.
For what it's worth, I think the instruments were recorded nearly perfectly. Great sound! Possibly one of my favorites in that regard but overall not one I listen to much.
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I too love Budokan, I bought the DVD, the CD with the orange printing error, and then the Bluray. I love the sound mix a lot on it. The show isn't as energetic as Score but that's NYC for you. I love the setlist and when I first got the DVD back in 2004, I watched it endlessly. The bluray is a nice upgrade to video and a little chunkier audio stream. I usually listen to the stereo versions of concerts as I find them the best mix.
I remember watching the show and thinking man these guys look so tired. It was one of the evening tours with only them and they'd play like 3 hours of music with a rotating setlist. I saw them in concert in London at the very beginning of the tour (2nd show of the tour) and then comparing that to the Budokan show, was like night and day. The doc from the DVD also showed how tired those guys were at the end plus the jetlag.
I only recently discovered that Jordan's keyboards were off in the beginning and that he mimed playing the parts for the first few songs so they could fix it in post. I'm sure there are a few fixes here and there but my recollection is that it was largely untouched. I need to get MP's commentary for the drumcam version. I'm sure there's a lot of great info on there.
Score had some fixes too with JP's guitar going out during Under A Glass Moon.
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Budokan was one of the first things I watched when I was getting into the band. Hearing Hollow Years and Stream of Consciousness live for the first times are two of my all-time favorite musical memories. My mind was just blown.
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I need to get MP's commentary for the drumcam version. I'm sure there's a lot of great info on there.
There is! Unfortunately he'd not allowed to sell those anymore so you're only hoping to find it on YouTube or ebay, probably for way too much money
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I think the L@B setlist *did* protect JLB quite a bit. The BTL jam, nearly 30 minutes between the two instrumentals, a keyboard solo, extended guitar solo, and quite a few songs that were already pretty lengthy with the instrumental sections (TDS, ES, ToT, ITNoG). It wasn't a heavy workload for him given the 3+hour show time.
I realized this after I got to know the band a bit more in the years after LAB came out. They really spaced out and padded the set with instrumental sections and songs pretty well, giving JLB plenty of time to rest between songs and intense vocal sections. Comparing that to Score, which was 12 or so minutes shorter, it doesn't seem like JLB got as many breaks in that set - SDOIT Overture and the suite's various instrumental sections, the long intro to "Octavarium", and the instrumental breaks in "Sacrificed Sons" and "Raise The Knife". Other than that, I don't think he really left the stage, though it has been a long time since I've watched either Budokan or Score. Granted, at a glance, I'd say the songs on LAB were more intense for James than the ones on Score.
-Marc.
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I don’t think Portnoy ever *intentionally* released “bad performances” by James.
He sure as hell didn't protect him, I'll tell you that. I was aghast when I heard the vocals to OIALT. I couldn't believe a proper live album would sound that awful vocally in this day and age. I didn't know why, honestly. I didn't connect the dots to MP at the time.
When the Ytsejam releases started and the released the LA '98 show, it was obviously MP who picked the show, and my first thought was I could not believe he did that to James. He totally hung him out to dry. I think that was my first sense that MP and James were having some sort of...issues.
I honestly don't think that Labrie on OIALT sounds that bad. My only complaint of it is that it cuts a ton of songs I love like UAGM and Anna Lee. What are the specific areas that are poor? I can definitely get why LA 1998 is reviled, especially the ending of The Crimson Sunset. To my ears, Labrie on OIALT is leaps and bounds ahead of LA 1998.
I honestly haven’t listened to it since it first came out. So I couldn’t tell you.
I just remember that I was near my peak of DT fanboy fervor. I had already been a fan for 6 years, I was the head of a CD department at a local department store, and I pimped DT at every opportunity. (When FII first came out, I was announcing new releases on the overhead once an hour, and putting WAY too much emphasis on DT and everyone thought I was nuts) And when OIALT came out, I was over the moon that my favorite band in the whole wide world finally had a full length live album.
I played it twice, and I was too embarrassed to ever play it again. The store demo is still the only copy I own. I would never pay money for it.
But I will say this…there are a precious few saving graces. That version of Peruvian Skies with the Have a Cigar and Enter Sandman nods is brilliant, and one of the few tracks on that release that James sounds great on. I do pull that track out from time to time.
You know what, I can definitely understand how OIALT could sound poor from the perspective of a fan in 1998 when the only live material available to fans so far was Live at the Marquee. He sounds like a completely different singer on those two releases. I've only gotten into DT in the last few years so from the perspective of a fan today, OIALT sounds alright compared to some recent live stuff like Back to Budokan 2017 (which is IMO the worst official live release they've done).
Overall I'd say that the years of 1997-2002 were a bit of a rough period for JLB. I wonder how long he could have maintained his 1992-1994 singing style if it weren't for the shrimp incident.
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Are DT live performances typically edited a lot before release?
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yes, overdubs etc
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yeah, overdubs especially if there's major flubbed notes or equipment issues as in some above mentioned examples. Plus post-recording tuning as well.
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Are DT live performances typically edited a lot before release?
I wouldn't say "a lot." But some things, here and there.
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And sometimes it's needed.
Not DT related but boy o boy was I in for a treat when I heard the un-edited Comfortably Numb solo from Pink Floyd's PULSE show.
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Not DT related but boy o boy was I in for a treat when I heard the un-edited Comfortably Numb solo from Pink Floyd's PULSE show...
Since I became Dream Theater-obsessed there is basically nothing else I listen to. Except one album, P.U.L.S.E. It's the very best Pink Floyd ever brought out and each side of all the vinyls from the box is equally brilliant. That High Hopes-solo... it forces even the toughest guys to tears in their eyes. Gilmour is outstanding and the The Bigger Picture solo is the only Petrucci-solo that reminds me of him.
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LaB and Score are their best releases for live DVDs. I haven't seen them all, though, but those two are just incredible.
On my DT mix on Spotify, I use the LaB version of Hollow Years since it smokes the album version. It actually becomes a listenable and fun song the way they did it on LaB.
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Not DT related but boy o boy was I in for a treat when I heard the un-edited Comfortably Numb solo from Pink Floyd's PULSE show...
Since I became Dream Theater-obsessed there is basically nothing else I listen to. Except one album, P.U.L.S.E. It's the very best Pink Floyd ever brought out and each side of all the vinyls from the box is equally brilliant. That High Hopes-solo... it forces even the toughest guys to tears in their eyes. Gilmour is outstanding and the The Bigger Picture solo is the only Petrucci-solo that reminds me of him.
Don't watch the unedited pulse footage then :lol
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Are DT live performances typically edited a lot before release?
When Mike was in the band, the overdubs and fixes were kept to an absolute bare minimum. But the band has been more relaxed about fixing things more generously since he left.
I seem to recall a few people saying that LALP was (at the time of release) the most “fixed” DT live album they had ever released.
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Not DT related but boy o boy was I in for a treat when I heard the un-edited Comfortably Numb solo from Pink Floyd's PULSE show.
What???
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Pulse was a recording of a live PPV show Pink Floyd back in the day. After the show was recorded it was cleaned up and released officially. You can still get the full unedited footage on YouTube.
https://youtu.be/i0B3r8NxTq8
The parts where it goes to single can where cut from the official release but we're displayed live.
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My feelings on fixes for live recordings are mixed. Obviously it makes for a cleaner end product but I would prefer to keep the editing to a minimum - maybe only if something was totally botched.
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Pulse was a recording of a live PPV show Pink Floyd back in the day. After the show was recorded it was cleaned up and released officially. You can still get the full unedited footage on YouTube.
https://youtu.be/i0B3r8NxTq8
The parts where it goes to single can where cut from the official release but we're displayed live.
Ha! I knew all that, except for the part about any cuts to the recording! I listened to that album a ton back in the day, despite still favorite Delicate Sound of Thunder, which "I knew had some edits. Thanks for the link.
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This is off topic but over the past few months I got into Phish and I've been watching their live streams when they perform. Im always so impressed with how good the live mix is over the live stream.
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Budokan is one of their best live DVD's for sure! There's supposed to be a blu ray of it, but I can only find one for almost 100 euros used, lol. I'll pass.
I do think JLB isn't having his best day on there, but that is compensated by the intense instrumental workouts and heavy material. I also really love the film-like look it has, less frames per second makes it look really classy.
Metropolis 2000: Scenes From New York, Live at Budokan and Score were all released during the height of my fandom. Dream Theater was the best band in the world for me at that time, hands down. All three of these DVD's I still hold in very high regard and I'll never, ever part with them.
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I listened to Budokan the other day. And I still disagree with the majority on Hollow Years. I think most of the extended guitar solo is horribly out of place and takes away from the rest of the song. Which is a shame because it's a lovely performance otherwise. As is the rest of the show, actually. James doesn't sound as good as on Score but he's not bad at all. And the video presentation is also lovely.
Well worth picking up Mike's version of Budokan, incidentally. The isolated audio is fabulous, as is the commentary. What a shame that side of the band died with his departure.
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The isolated audio is fabulous, as is the commentary. What a shame that side of the band died with his departure.
True, that is something that has been missing a lot from DT after MP left.
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I tried watching it the other night and couldn't finish. :( Right where the layer change in the DVD occurs, my BR player kept glitching and wouldn't play anything from that point onward. Not sure if it's just an issue with the player not knowing how to navigate the layering (not sure whether BRDs actually use layering) or if the disk has degraded over time and is glitchy itself.
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I tried watching it the other night and couldn't finish. :( Right where the layer change in the DVD occurs, my BR player kept glitching and wouldn't play anything from that point onward. Not sure if it's just an issue with the player not knowing how to navigate the layering (not sure whether BRDs actually use layering) or if the disk has degraded over time and is glitchy itself.
Best advice I can give you is, buy the vinyl. Nothing beats a fine vinyl.
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I tried watching it the other night and couldn't finish. :( Right where the layer change in the DVD occurs, my BR player kept glitching and wouldn't play anything from that point onward. Not sure if it's just an issue with the player not knowing how to navigate the layering (not sure whether BRDs actually use layering) or if the disk has degraded over time and is glitchy itself.
Best advice I can give you is, buy the vinyl. Nothing beats a fine vinyl.
That's the worst advice. He was WATCHING it!
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That's the worst advice. He was WATCHING it!
I know, but I'm watching it too, mostly. Although, in my case, I'm watching the vinyl spinning and dancing under the needle. Nothing beats vinyl.
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I've been meaning to buy LAB on BD, but I wasn't sure if there were any noticeable improvements on the BD over the DVD set.
-Marc.
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I own the Blu Ray but never had the DVD, so can't compare. It's been a while since I watched it, so that has to change soon :tup
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I've been meaning to buy LAB on BD, but I wasn't sure if there were any noticeable improvements on the BD over the DVD set.
-Marc.
I have both, the Bluray has an obvious bump in resolution. Whether you care or not is another matter, some don't notice and it doesn't bother them. Like for me personally, Score is only on DVD and it's at times tough to watch that resolution (720 x 480) on a 4k (3840 x 2160) screen.
But a bump from 720 to 1080 is nice and 1080 upscales to 4k a lot easier.
The sound is slightly beefed up as the audio streams are larger and you have two lossless versions (PCM Stereo and DTS-HD Master Audio).
So there is an upgrade but if you don't care about those things then it's no point upgrading.
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I've been meaning to buy LAB on BD, but I wasn't sure if there were any noticeable improvements on the BD over the DVD set.
-Marc.
I have both, the Bluray has an obvious bump in resolution. Whether you care or not is another matter, some don't notice and it doesn't bother them. Like for me personally, Score is only on DVD and it's at times tough to watch that resolution (720 x 480) on a 4k (3840 x 2160) screen.
But a bump from 720 to 1080 is nice and 1080 upscales to 4k a lot easier.
The sound is slightly beefed up as the audio streams are larger and you have two lossless versions (PCM Stereo and DTS-HD Master Audio).
So there is an upgrade but if you don't care about those things then it's no point upgrading.
Thanks for the info! I remember the BD coming out what feels like a decade ago but I never got it as I didn't have a BD player at the time (I don't think, or I didn't feel the need to upgrade from the DVD). Now I see it's a bit harder to find so I might just stick with my DVD set. Maybe some day in the future, the band might do a BD box set of their concerts and I would double-dip then, as Rush had done such a thing once, and we all know DT are of the "WWRD" mindset these days! :lol
-Marc.
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Gave some LAB songs a spin yesterday. The band really sounded great on that tour. I'm still not sure how they pulled off Stream of Consciousness live. :hefdaddy
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LAB has a special place in my heart as it was around the time I was introduced to the band by a classmate. The BTL instrumental breakdown between MP and JR and MP and JP is arguably my fav moment in DT Live recording history. To this day I rewatch this section at least a couple of times a year.
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that extended Hollow Years solo is one of the highlights
2004-2006 was a golden era for DT live
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I have both, the Bluray has an obvious bump in resolution. Whether you care or not is another matter, some don't notice and it doesn't bother them. Like for me personally, Score is only on DVD and it's at times tough to watch that resolution (720 x 480) on a 4k (3840 x 2160) screen.
But a bump from 720 to 1080 is nice
It's a bump from 480 to 1080 (lines!).
If I remember correctly, Budokan looks decent and certainly more detailed than the DVD edition, but it suffers from interlacing artifacts. I definitely prefer the Blu-ray disc, though. It's too bad the band-label didn't bother to prepare for an HD release of Score at the time.
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Gave some LAB songs a spin yesterday. The band really sounded great on that tour. I'm still not sure how they pulled off Stream of Consciousness live. :hefdaddy
SoC is so good. At least on bass, it's a relatively easy song to play (relative to other DT songs), though there are some hard-sounding guitar and keyboard bits. Also a really fun song to play on the bass.
Edit: rewatching it now and that guitar solo halfway in is just incredible live. You're right, that seems hard to pull off, JP is a beast.
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I watched this DVD a LOT when it came out. Amazing concert.
You know when I think of this DVD, the first thing that pops to mind every time is that shot of Petrucci absolutely destroying that outro in TDS while locking eyes with an audience member. What a machine! :metal