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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: SoundscapeMN on March 15, 2023, 07:37:47 PM
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https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/100-greatest-heavy-metal-songs-1234688425/
At least 1/4 or more aren't really even Metal songs (or even bands/artists who have ever done anything "Metal").
But it's Rolling Stone, so go figure.
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I just went straight to the top 10, and to be honest, you can't really complain with that top 10 from a general standpoint.
They lost me at Ratt's Round and Round at number 20 though. :rollin
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At least DT made the list lol
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They lost me at Ratt's Round and Round at number 20 though. :rollin
Yeah...aside from it being a very average song on its own, how is that the one they chose to be the highest ranked representative of 80s hair metal? Very strange choice indeed.
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Surprised to see Queensryche in for “Walk in the Shadows” and Kings X for “Music Over my Head”.
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Surprised to see Queensryche in for “Walk in the Shadows” and Kings X for “Music Over my Head”.
They picked Walk In The Shadows for QR? Weird.
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Hey guys, you heard of the list Rolling Stone made that everyone agreed on?
Yeah, me neither.
You could certainly pick it to death, but it's actually not as awful as I worried it could have been. There's a decent amount of variety for such a staid and irrelevant publication.
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Weird list for sure, but it's great to see Dream Theater on there and I thought their blurb was pretty well written. Like most of us here, I've listened to "Pull Me Under" so many times that I almost take it for granted. But it's a fucking incredible masterpiece.
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Time to pick out the bands that aren't actually metal....
King Crimson (although one could argue this song is proto-metal....I guess)
Body Count
White Zombie (this is stretching metal a bit, but I guess it could pass)
Kittie (again stretching the definition of metal, and to say Kittie put out anything that should be on this list is insulting to actual good metal)
Twisted Sister (borderline metal)
Deftones (love the band, but they aren't metal)
Skid Row (again, this is borderline)
Rammstein
Van Halen (good hard rock band, but not metal)
Korn (good lord....)
Quiet Riot (just like Skid Row and Twisted Sister, very borderline)
King’s X
Blue Cheer
Def Leppard (they stopped being metal after High n Dry, so the song they put on there shouldn't count)
Ministry
Evanescence
Rage Against the Machine
Deep Purple (another borderline band, could be considered proto-metal at times)
Lita Ford (just because she did some backing vocals on a WASP song doesn't make her metal...)
Danzig (borderline)
Mötley Crüe (see all the other butt rock bands on the list)
Ratt (see above)
Led Zeppelin
AC/DC (...sigh...)
Rainbow (great band, borderline metal)
Living Colour
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The fact that it's called a "heavy metal" list tells you most of what you need to know regarding that. "Real" metalheads just say "metal" most of the time, and "heavy metal" tends to mean a more specifically older form of it, no later than maybe stuff like The Black Album and the first solo Dickinson and Halford albums, but more likely just non-extreme 80s bands. So it's really more a throwback to the 70s origins when AC/DC, KISS and so forth were called "heavy metal" by publications and fans. So it's essentially just the harder, heavier end of rock 'n' roll, so you get all the more aggressive hard rock bands, alternative and/or nu-metal and such.
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Time to pick out the bands that aren't actually metal....
Korn (good lord....)
What would you class them as then?
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Saying bands like Deftones or Korn aren't metal is just some absurdly weird gatekeeping
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Korn pretty much inspired and created a new wave and style of metal. Sure, the elitists frowned upon them but they brought the 7 string into the mainstream and the first few albums have some crushing riffing. If the darkness, anger and complete disturbing nature of the self titled album can't be called metal, then I don't know what is.
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NO ELVIS?!?!
But yea, I just peaked at the top 20. Lots of Ozzy.
And of course Korn is metal. So are White Zombie, Kittie, Deftones, Skid Row, Rammstein, Ministry, Evanescence, Rage, etc.
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I mean, it's Rolling Stone, so it's ripe for controversy (that's the point). No Number Of The Beast, though, so that's an omission. No Kiss either; if you're going to put hair metal on then you should have "God Of Thunder" in there somewhere.
It wouldn't bother me so much if they weren't so STUPID about it. They claim to have their finger on the zeitgeist, and all, but then they put "Soundgarden" and "The Melvins" on there. If they were as smart as they thought, they'd know that Soundgarden spent more time MOCKING metal than PLAYING metal. Cornell and Thayil in particular got their roots from metal (Sabbath was a big influence) but a lot of grunge was a negative reaction to where metal had gone with the devil and misogyny and all. And if you're going to put grunge acts on there, where is Pearl Jam, who are unapologetic fans of bands like Kiss and UFO and Sabbath (well, some members are).
Interesting that they didn't pick one picture of Kerry King in his current (IMO, more overtly "metal") incarnation. I think there were two or three pictures of Slayer, and all of them have King with hair.
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NO ELVIS?!?!
But yea, I just peaked at the top 20. Lots of Ozzy.
And of course Korn is metal. So are White Zombie, Kittie, Deftones, Skid Row, Rammstein, Ministry, Evanescence, Rage, etc.
Elvis isn't metal. C'mon. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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NO ELVIS?!?!
But yea, I just peaked at the top 20. Lots of Ozzy.
And of course Korn is metal. So are White Zombie, Kittie, Deftones, Skid Row, Rammstein, Ministry, Evanescence, Rage, etc.
Elvis isn't metal. C'mon. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
I'm just saying, at this point I think Elvis should be on every list related to music. Best rock? Best metal? Best jazz? Best bluegrass? Best classical? Best singer? Best guitarist? Best banjo player? Best dubstep? Best appropriation of black music? Best trip hop?
ELVIS!
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Ace of Spades at #3! Wow. That's awesome.
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NO ELVIS?!?!
Agreed. 'Oliver's Army' would be a fine addition to that list.
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NO ELVIS?!?!
But yea, I just peaked at the top 20. Lots of Ozzy.
And of course Korn is metal. So are White Zombie, Kittie, Deftones, Skid Row, Rammstein, Ministry, Evanescence, Rage, etc.
Elvis isn't metal. C'mon. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
I'm just saying, at this point I think Elvis should be on every list related to music. Best rock? Best metal? Best jazz? Best bluegrass? Best classical? Best singer? Best guitarist? Best banjo player? Best dubstep? Best appropriation of black music? Best trip hop?
ELVIS!
Mojo Nixon - Elvis is Everywhere (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DcTY9i-fx8)
Please watch and give me your thoughts.
Is it incredibly dated (mid 80s)? Yes.
Is it possibly the greatest song of all time? Also yes.
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I'm actually far more interested in Jimmy Carter's upcoming list of the greatest pornstars of the fifty years.
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A lot of the songs here are exactly what you'd expect, but there is also some nice recognition for bands who are kinda under appreciated (especially in something this mainstream).
Mainly...
Crowbar
White Zombie
Bolt Thrower
There are certainly some stranger choices, and some I wouldn't necessarily class as heavy metal, but the majority definitely IS heavy metal.
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Saying bands like Deftones or Korn aren't metal is just some absurdly weird gatekeeping
Yeah like wut? Cmon Puppies.
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NO ELVIS?!?!
But yea, I just peaked at the top 20. Lots of Ozzy.
And of course Korn is metal. So are White Zombie, Kittie, Deftones, Skid Row, Rammstein, Ministry, Evanescence, Rage, etc.
Elvis isn't metal. C'mon. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
I'm just saying, at this point I think Elvis should be on every list related to music. Best rock? Best metal? Best jazz? Best bluegrass? Best classical? Best singer? Best guitarist? Best banjo player? Best dubstep? Best appropriation of black music? Best trip hop?
ELVIS!
You know I'm okay with that. :)
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I opened it up and saw Venom's Welcome to Hell at #100. Along with the picture, that started me out with a good laugh. But think about what this means: According to this magazine, Welcome to Hell is greater than EVERY song in Dream Theater's catalog other than Pull Me Under. Ummm...what?
I then went to the top 10. I fully expected to see Smells Like Teen Spirit or Enter Sandman at #1, so I was pleasantly surprised. But Breaking the Law at #4? Breaking the Fucking Law is the 4th greatest metal song ever and the best of Judas Priest? And then Living After Midnight shows up at #27? I can't argue too much with the rest of the top 10, but including BTL and Run to the Hills suggests this was put together by someone completely unfamiliar with those bands' catalogs.
Happy to see Stargazer at #14.
Round and Round at #20?? So...not only is Welcome to Hell "greater" than all but one DT song, Round and Round is 80 spots better than that?! :lol :lol :lol
Caught in a Mosh the "greatest" Anthrax song? And then they turn up later with...Bring the Noise? Sigh....
Three Slayer songs in the top 25? I mean....
Enter Sandman one notch "greater" than Heaven and Hell.
Now we're getting into the seriously obscure Rolling Stone stuff. Who the heck is/are Melvins? "Night Goat" sounds like a parody.
Queensryche finally shows up at #48 and it's Walk in the Shadows? And what the hell is this: "Rage for Order[] masterfully sneaked elements of brainy prog-rock into the glam-hair-hard-rock soup of the day, providing a blueprint for countless prog-metal bands — among them Dream Theater, Ayrean, and Transatlantic — to follow." What?
Ministry is metal? King Crimson?
Hey, look, it's Dream Theater! How 'about that?
I can't argue too much over what's on this list, but what's not on the list is crazy. I will say that I'm pleasantly surprised not to see Rush on the list (although you'll never convince me that Bastille Day and parts of 2112 weren't metal.
NO ELVIS?!?!
But yea, I just peaked at the top 20. Lots of Ozzy.
And of course Korn is metal. So are White Zombie, Kittie, Deftones, Skid Row, Rammstein, Ministry, Evanescence, Rage, etc.
Elvis isn't metal. C'mon. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
I'm just saying, at this point I think Elvis should be on every list related to music. Best rock? Best metal? Best jazz? Best bluegrass? Best classical? Best singer? Best guitarist? Best banjo player? Best dubstep? Best appropriation of black music? Best trip hop?
ELVIS!
Mojo Nixon - Elvis is Everywhere (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DcTY9i-fx8)
Please watch and give me your thoughts.
Is it incredibly dated (mid 80s)? Yes.
Is it possibly the greatest song of all time? Also yes.
Michael J. Fox endorses this message.
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No Helloween? List is irrelevant.
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I thought the list was fine for what it was, was surprised to see a few extreme Metal bands thrown in there as well as Dream Theater and Hallowed Be Thy Name as a Maiden pick. It's a mainstream magazine that doesn't even specialize in Metal music so of course it is going to be pretty surface level, but if you're not really familiar with Metal music (which is the audience this sort of list is for) this is a decent entry level list with some bonafide classics.
Nitpicking over what is and isn't Metal seems like a boring exercise.
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Yeah list was better than I expected to be honest. The Ratt song is definitely out of place. Not even the heaviest track for that band.
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Yeah list was better than I expected to be honest. The Ratt song is definitely out of place. Not even the heaviest track for that band.
But the best one, really.
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Yeah list was better than I expected to be honest. The Ratt song is definitely out of place. Not even the heaviest track for that band.
But the best one, really.
Not a lot of competition for best Ratt song, but I'll take You Think You're Tough every day.
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Yeah list was better than I expected to be honest. The Ratt song is definitely out of place. Not even the heaviest track for that band.
But the best one, really.
Not a lot of competition for best Ratt song, but I'll take You Think You're Tough every day.
Back for More in a landslide. A couple of wonderful solos from WDM in that one.
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I think Ratt is becoming underrated. DeMartini was easily one of the best guitarists of the era.
Now we're getting into the seriously obscure Rolling Stone stuff. Who the heck is/are Melvins? "Night Goat" sounds like a parody.
If you don't even know who they are you're in a precarious position to be passing judgment on the list.
Ministry is metal? King Crimson?
Ministry essentially invented industrial metal. King Crimson more or less invented prog metal, it's just only one small facet of their output.
I can't argue too much over what's on this list, but what's not on the list is crazy. I will say that I'm pleasantly surprised not to see Rush on the list (although you'll never convince me that Bastille Day and parts of 2112 weren't metal.
Given what else is on the list, I'm kind of surprised something of theirs didn't make it. At their hardest they're as borderline-metal as many others are.
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I think Ratt is becoming underrated. DeMartini was easily one of the best guitarists of the era.
No they're not. Ratt always sucked.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Pi93JlMqk
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Pi93JlMqk
Yeah, but they still blew. WDM was just fine as a guitarist. In fact, I think the band was actually a pretty good unit, but they had two major problems..
A shitty vocalist and zero songwriting skills.
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A lot of the mainstream bands of that era had annoying vocalists, but I can remember far more of their songs than most others, which to me is a component of songwriting. Your wrath is better spent on, oh, I dunno, maybe Poison.
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Out of the Cellar predated LWtCDI by a couple of years. Not to mention that CC Deville was no WDM. A better comparison would be post RR Ozzy. Bark came out only a couple of months before OooC, and WDM is certainly similar to Jake E. Lee, both in talent and style.
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Yeah, but why would you compare those? Post-RR Ozzy is good.
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Yeah, but why would you compare those? Post-RR Ozzy is good.
That's going to be a matter of opinion, I suppose. The songwriting with JEL wasn't particularly good, and if you hate Steven Pearcy's singing you may well hate Ozzy's, too.
Not a hill I'm willing to die on, mind you. I'm not much of a Ratt fan. I do see some similarities, though.
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Out of the Cellar predated LWtCDI by a couple of years.
I had to double check this as I definitely don't remember LWTCDI as being released in the forst half od 1986, but you're right. I don't remember them being out that early. It's not on Setlist FM, but I distinctly remember them doing a club tour in the fall of 1987. I thought they played The Living Room a few weeks after GnR.
A lot of the mainstream bands of that era had annoying vocalists, but I can remember far more of their songs than most others, which to me is a component of songwriting. Your wrath is better spent on, oh, I dunno, maybe Poison.
I'm no Poison fan believe me, but they were a whole nuther animal. I was never disappointed with Poison because I never cared about them to begin with.
Ratt disappointed me. I bought Out Of The Cellar when it was released. It blew.
Round And Round is actually a decent tune with a great solo section. The rest of the album was such a let down.
Ratt was a flash in the pan anyway. After their arena tour for Invasion, they practically disappeared.
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Yeah, but why would you compare those? Post-RR Ozzy is good.
That's going to be a matter of opinion, I suppose. The songwriting with JEL wasn't particularly good, and if you hate Steven Pearcy's singing you may well hate Ozzy's, too.
Not a hill I'm willing to die on, mind you. I'm not much of a Ratt fan. I do see some similarities, though.
WDM could've just as easily been Ozzy's guitarist instead of Jake. That's not a stretch at all. Very similar.
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Yeah, but why would you compare those? Post-RR Ozzy is good.
That's going to be a matter of opinion, I suppose. The songwriting with JEL wasn't particularly good, and if you hate Steven Pearcy's singing you may well hate Ozzy's, too.
Yeah, I don't really care about either in terms of vocals, but I'm accepting of them. But "Killer of Giants", "Shot in the Dark", "Lightning Strikes", all classics, probably others if I played it again.
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Yeah, but why would you compare those? Post-RR Ozzy is good.
That's going to be a matter of opinion, I suppose. The songwriting with JEL wasn't particularly good, and if you hate Steven Pearcy's singing you may well hate Ozzy's, too.
Yeah, I don't really care about either in terms of vocals, but I'm accepting of them. But "Killer of Giants", "Shot in the Dark", "Lightning Strikes", all classics, probably others if I played it again.
I love Shot In The Dark, and Killer Of Giants is excellent, but I don't really care for The Ultimate Sin album. I'm a BATM guy all the way.
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Yeah, but why would you compare those? Post-RR Ozzy is good.
That's going to be a matter of opinion, I suppose. The songwriting with JEL wasn't particularly good, and if you hate Steven Pearcy's singing you may well hate Ozzy's, too.
Yeah, I don't really care about either in terms of vocals, but I'm accepting of them. But "Killer of Giants", "Shot in the Dark", "Lightning Strikes", all classics, probably others if I played it again.
Best Ozzy album. Jake's finest hour.
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I don't get it. Never have, never will.
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I don't get it. Never have, never will.
Something about it, the vibe, atmosphere, just gets me. Great songs, some wonderful melodies and amazing guitar work.
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See, I think the songs are anything but great. It's just so sub par to the three albums that preceded it.
I guess that's just how I see it. I was real disappointed with it when it came out.
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Out of the Cellar predated LWtCDI by a couple of years.
I had to double check this as I definitely don't remember LWTCDI as being released in the forst half od 1986, but you're right. I don't remember them being out that early. It's not on Setlist FM, but I distinctly remember them doing a club tour in the fall of 1987. I thought they played The Living Room a few weeks after GnR.
Down here they opened for Cinderella and Roudness at the Arcadia. Cinderella had just begun to break, and nobody knew who Poison was.
As for Ozzy/Ratt, I was specifically comparing Bark and OotC. Ultimate Sin was a better album, I think.
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See, I think the songs are anything but great. It's just so sub par to the three albums that preceded it.
I guess that's just how I see it. I was real disappointed with it when it came out.
Hey, you know me, I'm in the minority for a lot of my fav albums. I appreciate the WTF in relation to this one too. I would expect next to no one to agree with me.
I could never find much to like about BATM myself. I think it's bland with a lot of average songs.
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One thing I will give RATT...a girl let me touch her bare breast for the first time during their set at Day on the Green in '85, so there is that.
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Well, I guess that settles it..
RATT Wins!!
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I saw Ratt with Twisted Sister in early 84. No girls let me feel them up, and Twisted blew Ratt of the stage. No surprise there.
Funny thing about that show, one of two mythical bands were supposed to open that show. In this case Mama's Boys, who I'm convinced never actually existed. Anytime they were a scheduled opener in Dallas, two or three times in the early 80s, they canceled. Same as Waysted.
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One thing I will give RATT...a girl let me touch her bare breast for the first time during their set at Day on the Green in '85, so there is that.
When I was 18 yrs old, I went to the Motley Crue GGG tour just to see all the girls (my age) walking around wearing next to nothing. At least that part of it wasn’t disappointing.
:rollin :rollin
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Aside from Breaking the Law, which is one of the stupidest songs I have ever heard, that top 10 is actually pretty decent.
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I saw Ratt with Twisted Sister in early 84. No girls let me feel them up, and Twisted blew Ratt of the stage. No surprise there.
Funny thing about that show, one of two mythical bands were supposed to open that show. In this case Mama's Boys, who I'm convinced never actually existed. Anytime they were a scheduled opener in Dallas, two or three times in the early 80s, they canceled. Same as Waysted.
I saw Twisted Sister open for Dio in 1984 and they were great live.
Unless they played a club, I don't really remember Ratt coming around on the OOTC tour. They must have. I know they did an arena headline tour in 1985 with Bin Jovi opening. I skipped that. I actually might've gone if it was the other way around.
Mama's Boys most definitely existed. I still have their Plug Me In album upstairs. You mentioned Waysted not playing before.
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Unless they played a club, I don't really remember Ratt coming around on the OOTC tour. They must have. I know they did an arena headline tour in 1985 with Bin Jovi opening. I skipped that. I actually might've gone if it was the other way around.
It was actually a pretty good show. Didn't sell well. I know they did a half arena thing, which means they definitely overestimated demand.
Mama's Boys most definitely existed. I still have their Plug Me In album upstairs. You mentioned Waysted not playing before.
I'm pretty sure you're mistaken.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Pi93JlMqk
Yeah, but they still blew. WDM was just fine as a guitarist. In fact, I think the band was actually a pretty good unit, but they had two major problems..
A shitty vocalist and zero songwriting skills.
I can barely listen to Steven Pearcy. Horrible.
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One thing I will give RATT...a girl let me touch her bare breast for the first time during their set at Day on the Green in '85, so there is that.
When I was 18 yrs old, I went to the Motley Crue GGG tour just to see all the girls (my age) walking around wearing next to nothing. At least that part of it wasn’t disappointing.
:rollin :rollin
I was working security for the Dr. Feelgood show at the Hartford Civic Center. Tommy Lee signed this girl's boob and she was walking around the concourse with it fully out, holding it up to show anyone that wanted to look. The autograph, I mean, but she wasn't doing a great job of redacting the rest. :) :) :)
I too saw Twisted open for Dio. There was a huge fight on the floor, but as a general comment, as much as I liked Dio I thought Twisted was way better live. They were ferocious.
Ratt was weird in that way; they sold a ton of records - the first FOUR records are all platinum - but they didn't have the sort of "presence" that a band like Twisted Sister had (only one platinum record), or even Poison (first three records platinum), at least not on the east coast.
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When it came to MTV, Ratt got played a ton. Even Way Cool Jr. in the late 80s was played to death, as were the three hits from Dancing Undercover. These all came after Round and Round, Back for More, Wanted Man, etc.
The two Twisted Sister videos from '84 got played a ton, but outside of Leader of the Pack a few years later getting played a bit, they were barely a blip on the MTV radar for the second half of the 80s.
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Now I have Round and Round stuck in my head. Ffs I even remember the lyrics.
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I don't think I've ever even heard a Ratt song
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I don't think I've ever even heard a Ratt song
If you’re over 35, yes you have. I promise.
I mean some songs are just unavoidable no matter how much you hate the artist and genre. Like I Want It That Way by The Backstreet Boys. (Or is that *NSYNC…I can’t tell those two apart)
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For the record, I consider Out of the Cellar to be one of the greatest front to back “hair metal” albums ever recorded. I think every song on that entire album took a turn as “my favorite” from the album. It’s just a really great solid record. (The other contender would be Midnight Dynamite by Kix…which destroys the more popular Blow My Fuse IMO)
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For the record, I consider Out of the Cellar to be one of the greatest front to back “hair metal” albums ever recorded. I think every song on that entire album took a turn as “my favorite” from the album. It’s just a really great solid record. (The other contender would be Midnight Dynamite by Kix…which destroys the more popular Blow My Fuse IMO)
Both produced by Beau Hill who also produced the first two Winger albums, and Midnight Dynamite included Kip Winger’s first writing credit. Ironically, I think Beau kind of neutered the Winger material sonically (more so on the second album) and Kip has sort of expressed regret over working with him on those albums.
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I don't think I've ever even heard a Ratt song
If you’re over 35, yes you have. I promise.
I mean some songs are just unavoidable no matter how much you hate the artist and genre. Like I Want It That Way by The Backstreet Boys. (Or is that *NSYNC…I can’t tell those two apart)
I'm nearly 40, and honestly I don't think I have. I'm not sure if it's a thing where they aren't as popular in the UK? What are their most popular songs? The one on the list?
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I think Ratt is becoming underrated. DeMartini was easily one of the best guitarists of the era.
No they're not. Ratt always sucked.
Warren Demartini might have been good, but Ratt, despite having a couple catchy songs, absolutely sucked, which impacts Demartini's reputation. I'm amazed that the two post-Invasion albums went platinum.
Unless they played a club, I don't really remember Ratt coming around on the OOTC tour. They must have. I know they did an arena headline tour in 1985 with Bin Jovi opening. I skipped that. I actually might've gone if it was the other way around.
It was actually a pretty good show. Didn't sell well. I know they did a half arena thing, which means they definitely overestimated demand.
The initial part of the OOTC tour was spent opening for Ozzy (they flip flopped with Motley Crue). They played the Orpheum in Boston on May 31, 1984 and then L'Amour and the Beacon Theatre in NY and a show at Twilight Zone in New Haven. They were back in the northeast in September at the Nassau Coliseum, Providence Civic Center, New Haven Vets Coliseum and the Worcester Centrum. They finished the year with a NYE show at Long Beach Arena. They did a handful of dates in Japan in March and then recorded the next album.
I'm nearly 40, and honestly I don't think I have. I'm not sure if it's a thing where they aren't as popular in the UK? What are their most popular songs? The one on the list?
Their most well known song is Round and Round. Next on the list would be You Think You're Tough, Wanted May, Lack of Communication, You're in Love, Lay It Down, Slip of the Lip and Way Cool Jr. I'm guessing they were relatively unknown in the UK, though. They only ever played one show over there (1985 Monsters of Rock). In fact, that show and the Japan shows in March 1985 were their only non-U.S. shows ever.
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Unless they played a club, I don't really remember Ratt coming around on the OOTC tour. They must have. I know they did an arena headline tour in 1985 with Bin Jovi opening. I skipped that. I actually might've gone if it was the other way around.
It was actually a pretty good show. Didn't sell well. I know they did a half arena thing, which means they definitely overestimated demand.
The initial part of the OOTC tour was spent opening for Ozzy (they flip flopped with Motley Crue). They played the Orpheum in Boston on May 31, 1984 and then L'Amour and the Beacon Theatre in NY and a show at Twilight Zone in New Haven. They were back in the northeast in September at the Nassau Coliseum, Providence Civic Center, New Haven Vets Coliseum and the Worcester Centrum. They finished the year with a NYE show at Long Beach Arena. They did a handful of dates in Japan in March and then recorded the next album.
The half arena gig with Bonjovi was for Invasion.
I know they headlined smaller venues for OotC, because I saw the one here with Twisted opening. That was at the Bronco Bowl, which was a ~5500 seat theater. That would have been shortly after Ozzy's BatM tour with Crue in 84.
If the only non-US shows they ever played were the Japan shows in 85 that's honestly astonishing. It's weird to think that bands who were big here were nonexistent elsewhere. Van Halen comes to mind.
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I just listened to Round and Round, and something in the chorus sounded familiar, but I definitely didn't know the song. I googled it and turns out it was in an episode of Stranger Things. So although I hadn't heard the whole song before, I'd at least heard the chorus.
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There weren't a ton of big non-U.S. hair metal bands, were there? Def Leppard was huge, but were they "hair metal"? Scorpions for a while, maybe.
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There weren't a ton of big non-U.S. hair metal bands, were there? Def Leppard was huge, but were they "hair metal"? Scorpions for a while, maybe.
I really don't know. I've just always kind of assumed that popularity in music is at least somewhat global. I know that isn't actually the case, though. Like I said, Van Halen seemed to be largely an American thing, too. It just surprises me sometimes. That said, Ratt wasn't honestly as popular here as MTV would've had us believe. Their one attempt at playing arenas didn't go over well.
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There weren't a ton of big non-U.S. hair metal bands, were there? Def Leppard was huge, but were they "hair metal"? Scorpions for a while, maybe.
I really don't know. I've just always kind of assumed that popularity in music is at least somewhat global. I know that isn't actually the case, though. Like I said, Van Halen seemed to be largely an American thing, too. It just surprises me sometimes. That said, Ratt wasn't honestly as popular here as MTV would've had us believe. Their one attempt at playing arenas didn't go over well.
They certainly didn't have the popularity of Def Leppard, Scorpions or Crue, that's for sure. Crue didn't even scratch the list, did they?
EDIT- just checked, Shout at the Devil is there... also noticed You Can't Bring Me Down by Suicidal Tendancies made the list....definitely punk as opposed to metal, but a great fucking tune anyways.
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The fact that we’re about two pages into a RATT discussion tells me that Rolling Stone made the right call with the high placement.
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But it's two pages of how they don't deserve to be there... :lol
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At least DT made the list lol
Yeah, on one hand I'm glad they made the list, but on the other hand disappointed they're at the ass end of it. This is why we can't have nice things. PMU deserved way better than #91.
I think Ratt is becoming underrated. DeMartini was easily one of the best guitarists of the era.
No they're not. Ratt always sucked.
Warren Demartini might have been good, but Ratt, despite having a couple catchy songs, absolutely sucked, which impacts Demartini's reputation. I'm amazed that the two post-Invasion albums went platinum.
I'm wondering if you've even heard their entire catalogue. I'll agree that they sucked live because of partying too hard on tour, but they have way more than just a "couple catchy songs".
That is just grossly understated.
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There weren't a ton of big non-U.S. hair metal bands, were there? Def Leppard was huge, but were they "hair metal"? Scorpions for a while, maybe.
I really don't know. I've just always kind of assumed that popularity in music is at least somewhat global. I know that isn't actually the case, though. Like I said, Van Halen seemed to be largely an American thing, too. It just surprises me sometimes. That said, Ratt wasn't honestly as popular here as MTV would've had us believe. Their one attempt at playing arenas didn't go over well.
They certainly didn't have the popularity of Def Leppard, Scorpions or Crue, that's for sure. Crue didn't even scratch the list, did they?
EDIT- just checked, Shout at the Devil is there... also noticed You Can't Bring Me Down by Suicidal Tendancies made the list....definitely punk as opposed to metal, but a great fucking tune anyways.
I certainly wouldn't call Suicidal Tendencies straight up punk, especially You Can't Bring Me Down. The intro sounds like Cemetary Gates, then they come in with metal riffs for God's sake. They're definitely more funk metal or something.
You can argue that some of their songs are more punk as they were crossover thrash/hardcore to begin with. This song is pretty metal though.
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Alot of what you said can be blanketly applied to all punk, both genres have similar roots and nuances for sure.
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That song wouldn't really be out of place on something like Master of Puppets if Hetfield sang it. It's definitely on the more metal end of the crossover thrash scene.
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Alot of what you said can be blanketly applied to all punk, both genres have similar roots and nuances for sure.
Agreed; if you ignore all the nonsense around them, and to some degree the affectations of Johnny Lydon, the Sex Pistols one main record is a pretty decent hard rock record, in the vein of Motley True and some of the less-sludge-y Twisted Sister.
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When it came to MTV, Ratt got played a ton. Even Way Cool Jr. in the late 80s was played to death, as were the three hits from Dancing Undercover. These all came after Round and Round, Back for More, Wanted Man, etc.
The two Twisted Sister videos from '84 got played a ton, but outside of Leader of the Pack a few years later getting played a bit, they were barely a blip on the MTV radar for the second half of the 80s.
I wasn't clear; I meant LIVE. I could've seen Twisted 15 times if I wanted. I'm struggling to remember ANY of the Ratt tours that came through Connecticut. You are spot on in terms of MTV, though.
By the way, I'm with PG. I do think Ratt is way overrated. They're interchangeable with White Lion for me; great guitar player, and agonizing lead singer.
I think if I was in a band and I had to choose between Steven Pearcy, Vince Neil or Mike Tramp, I'd make an instrumental record.
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When it came to MTV, Ratt got played a ton. Even Way Cool Jr. in the late 80s was played to death, as were the three hits from Dancing Undercover. These all came after Round and Round, Back for More, Wanted Man, etc.
The two Twisted Sister videos from '84 got played a ton, but outside of Leader of the Pack a few years later getting played a bit, they were barely a blip on the MTV radar for the second half of the 80s.
I wasn't clear; I meant LIVE. I could've seen Twisted 15 times if I wanted. I'm struggling to remember ANY of the Ratt tours that came through Connecticut. You are spot on in terms of MTV, though.
By the way, I'm with PG. I do think Ratt is way overrated. They're interchangeable with White Lion for me; great guitar player, and agonizing lead singer.
I think if I was in a band and I had to choose between Steven Pearcy, Vince Neil or Mike Tramp, I'd make an instrumental record.
Heh, I'll take Tramp and White Lion over the other two bands any day. He was at least a decent songwriter. And Bratta was also the best of those guitarists.
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Saying bands like Deftones or Korn aren't metal is just some absurdly weird gatekeeping
Yeah like wut? Cmon Puppies.
You can call it gatekeeping or me being a metal elitist, but I don't consider those bands metal. Yes, they have some similarities to metal in some of the stuff they do, but to me, they aren't metal. At the same time, as I said above, I really like a lot of those bands. I mean, Deftones is a top 50 band for me, maybe even top 25.
Perhaps my post came off as sounding a little elitist, which was not my intention. I just feel like Rolling Stone stretched the definition of metal too far just to fill out a top 100, all the while ignoring 99% of the great metal bands out there and the various genres that make up metal. I think the only reason they had Venom on there was to say they had a "black metal" band on the list, when Venom isn't even really black metal. Yes, they had an album called Black Metal, no, it wasn't a Black Metal album...
At any rate, this is all subjective anyway. And at the end of the day, I know I have very strong opinions of what band belongs in what genre of music. I'm aware some people won't agree with me and that's fine. I don't think any less of any of you if you consider the bands I mentioned as metal.
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This just gets back to my old argument about how definitions change over time.
I remember walking into a record store in 1980 and that record store had a fairly large “heavy metal“ section. It was not a single shelf with just Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. A lot of things that we would now consider to be “hard rock“ were in fact considered heavy metal 45 years ago. The goal posts just moved a bit.
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Yeah, and at one point I was considered cool.
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Yeah, and at one point I was considered cool.
[Butthead voice] huh uh huh… You’re old. [/Butthead voice]
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Yup. Definitions sure change.
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This just gets back to my old argument about how definitions change over time.
I remember walking into a record store in 1980 and that record store had a fairly large “heavy metal“ section. It was not a single shelf with just Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. A lot of things that we would now consider to be “hard rock“ were in fact considered heavy metal 45 years ago. The goal posts just moved a bit.
Not just this but I also feel like if a quick search of a band comes back with them being a metal band (or it being listed as one of their genres) then that's sort of a universally accepted thing and if you strongly disagree then maybe its your own weird preferences that are not accurate rather than what everyone else is saying.
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This just gets back to my old argument about how definitions change over time.
I remember walking into a record store in 1980 and that record store had a fairly large “heavy metal“ section. It was not a single shelf with just Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. A lot of things that we would now consider to be “hard rock“ were in fact considered heavy metal 45 years ago. The goal posts just moved a bit.
Yea that's a pretty good point to be fair.
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I just feel like Rolling Stone stretched the definition of metal too far just to fill out a top 100, all the while ignoring 99% of the great metal bands out there and the various genres that make up metal. I think the only reason they had Venom on there was to say they had a "black metal" band on the list, when Venom isn't even really black metal. Yes, they had an album called Black Metal, no, it wasn't a Black Metal album...
I doubt anyone loves the list, but honestly it covers more ground than many I've seen. I don't know how many "best metal" lists I've read that seem to think no metal was made after The Black Album and maybe something from Pantera. At least this one attempts to include some later developments, even if it's only mildly successful at it.
And you must have skimmed the list if you think Venom is the only thing black metal or adjacent on it. It has Mayhem, Emperor, Bathory, and Celtic Frost. Better than expected for such a generic and mainstream publication, I'd say.
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Yea there's some real obvious choices but also plenty that I was pleasantly surprised to see. Overall a pretty good list. I've got it saved on Spotify to play through one day.
Also just noticed You Suffer is on the list :rollin
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I think that one's on there for the same reason that I imagine "4'33" would be on a more general "important music" list, it represents an idea more than actually being a real song.
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+ I've found You Suffer to be a weirdly more effective explanation for what grindcore music is than a regular grindcore song. :lol
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There weren't a ton of big non-U.S. hair metal bands, were there? Def Leppard was huge, but were they "hair metal"? Scorpions for a while, maybe.
I really don't know. I've just always kind of assumed that popularity in music is at least somewhat global. I know that isn't actually the case, though. Like I said, Van Halen seemed to be largely an American thing, too. It just surprises me sometimes. That said, Ratt wasn't honestly as popular here as MTV would've had us believe. Their one attempt at playing arenas didn't go over well.
Along the same lines, Stryper was the same way. For as much as MTV played their five videos from 1986-1988, you would have thought they were huge, but Honestly was the only one that broke the top 40 here in the States. Hell, I remember Free was number 1 on most requested videos every day for like a month.
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Just listening through this list, and as much as it's great to see some death metal representation, I'm struck by the fact there's no Death songs. I know we can sit here and say this song or that song should be on here, but come on... it's Death!
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Death is not on the list? :lol
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Death is not on the list? :lol
No, but it's OK, Girlschool and Evanescence are.
A few other bands I'm kinda shocked aren't on here. In Flames and Carcass.
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Saying bands like Deftones or Korn aren't metal is just some absurdly weird gatekeeping
Yeah like wut? Cmon Puppies.
You can call it gatekeeping or me being a metal elitist, but I don't consider those bands metal. Yes, they have some similarities to metal in some of the stuff they do, but to me, they aren't metal. At the same time, as I said above, I really like a lot of those bands. I mean, Deftones is a top 50 band for me, maybe even top 25.
Perhaps my post came off as sounding a little elitist, which was not my intention. I just feel like Rolling Stone stretched the definition of metal too far just to fill out a top 100, all the while ignoring 99% of the great metal bands out there and the various genres that make up metal. I think the only reason they had Venom on there was to say they had a "black metal" band on the list, when Venom isn't even really black metal. Yes, they had an album called Black Metal, no, it wasn't a Black Metal album...
At any rate, this is all subjective anyway. And at the end of the day, I know I have very strong opinions of what band belongs in what genre of music. I'm aware some people won't agree with me and that's fine. I don't think any less of any of you if you consider the bands I mentioned as metal.
Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?
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Saying bands like Deftones or Korn aren't metal is just some absurdly weird gatekeeping
Yeah like wut? Cmon Puppies.
You can call it gatekeeping or me being a metal elitist, but I don't consider those bands metal. Yes, they have some similarities to metal in some of the stuff they do, but to me, they aren't metal. At the same time, as I said above, I really like a lot of those bands. I mean, Deftones is a top 50 band for me, maybe even top 25.
Perhaps my post came off as sounding a little elitist, which was not my intention. I just feel like Rolling Stone stretched the definition of metal too far just to fill out a top 100, all the while ignoring 99% of the great metal bands out there and the various genres that make up metal. I think the only reason they had Venom on there was to say they had a "black metal" band on the list, when Venom isn't even really black metal. Yes, they had an album called Black Metal, no, it wasn't a Black Metal album...
At any rate, this is all subjective anyway. And at the end of the day, I know I have very strong opinions of what band belongs in what genre of music. I'm aware some people won't agree with me and that's fine. I don't think any less of any of you if you consider the bands I mentioned as metal.
Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?
Not Metal.
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Death is not on the list? :lol
No, but it's OK, Girlschool and Evanescence are.
A few other bands I'm kinda shocked aren't on here. In Flames and Carcass.
Yeah, I'm sure if I thought about it too hard there'd be more glaring omissions. Death is certainly one, there's not really a good argument for Obituary being on there instead of them.
I think there is definitely a different and somewhat unstated criteria they're trying to hit for the list, which explains a number of the entries.
I guess they figured At The Gates, Arch Enemy, Bolt Thrower, and even Opeth to an extent covered enough melodeath bases.
Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?
I'm wondering if Puppies is going by the Metal-Archives criteria for metal, in which case they'd probably just be considered super-heavy rock.
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The definition is “nu metal” but it’s still technically under the metal umbrella. Anyone who says otherwise is just in denial
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Early Deftones is certainly nu-metal, but their later stuff is more just general alt metal, with a variety of other influences.
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Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?
I'm wondering if Puppies is going by the Metal-Archives criteria for metal, in which case they'd probably just be considered super-heavy rock.
They are less super heavy rock than metal.
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Again, if they are not metal, what would you class them as?
I'm wondering if Puppies is going by the Metal-Archives criteria for metal, in which case they'd probably just be considered super-heavy rock.
They are less super heavy rock than metal.
To be clear, I couldn't care less what Metal Archives criteria is for metal. Those guys are definite gatekeepers. There are a lot of bands that I consider metal that are banned from that site. Between the Buried and Me being a big one. But that's a topic for a different discussion.
To answer your original question Wolfking, which I completely missed earlier.......I consider Deftones to be alternative rock with prog and post-rock influences. And Korn falls into the hard rock category for me. To be honest I'm not a big Korn fan at all, so I haven't heard most of their stuff (what I have heard I didn't like), so I could be way off base here.
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Yeah, I think you need to check out more old school Korn if you think they are hard rock.
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No one needs to check out Korn.
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Just caught up on this thread.
I can't believe that much digital ink was wasted on fucking Ratt, of all bands.
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Just caught up on this thread.
I can't believe that much digital ink was wasted on fucking Ratt, of all bands.
Hee hee.
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Just caught up on this thread.
I can't believe that much digital ink was wasted on fucking Ratt, of all bands.
You make me shoot diet coke through my nose you jerk.
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Not really a fan of Korn, but holy fuck Right Now grooves
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Just caught up on this thread.
I can't believe that much digital ink was wasted on fucking Ratt, of all bands.
You make me shoot diet coke through my nose you jerk.
:djhef:
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I consider Deftones to be alternative rock with prog and post-rock influences. And Korn falls into the hard rock category for me. To be honest I'm not a big Korn fan at all, so I haven't heard most of their stuff (what I have heard I didn't like), so I could be way off base here.
Do you not consider alternative metal to be a type of music? Or if you do, what is missing about Deftones that makes them alt rock instead of alt metal? It seems odd to group them with R.E.M., U2, PJ Harvey and such.
Not a huge KoRn fan myself, though I like a few songs, but I've heard plenty from them, and I'd definitely say you're offbase. "Hard rock" has become almost a useless category with how broad it can theoretically be, but even then it's still a stretch to put KoRn in with a style more centered on AC/DC, Aerosmith and such.
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No one needs to check out Korn.
You've just made me change which band I'm sending you for round 8!