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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: cramx3 on October 05, 2022, 12:20:37 PM
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Here's an article in case you aren't familiar with the twitter beef between these people:
https://loudwire.com/ronnie-radke-calls-out-eddie-trunk-over-missing-laptop-comments-sebastian-bach-fires-back/ (https://loudwire.com/ronnie-radke-calls-out-eddie-trunk-over-missing-laptop-comments-sebastian-bach-fires-back/)
Basically Ronnie's band, Falling in Reverse, cancelled a festival show because their laptops went missing. This lead to Eddie Trunk taking to social media to bash the band for not playing fully live. And things got messy from there with Sebastian Bach getting involved supporting Eddie Trunk's side of the argument.
It's quite silly to see grown men argue like this, but I'm fairly amused by it all. I don't like Eddie Trunk, but I'm leaning slightly towards his side here. I just don't see why a metal band couldn't play a show without the laptops. They are relied upon so much that the band just couldn't play a show without backing tracks? I understand a laptop can support more than backing tracks, it can do the click it can control lights and videos or samples. But still? Can't do a modified show without them just so you aren't forced to cancel?
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This was kind of funny: "Just hired this entire orchestra, bought their flights, hotel, food, 4 buses, so they can play the 35 second intro of voices in my head so @EddieTrunk can respect us on his podcast that has less listeners than people in this picture."
Look, laptops can play a number of roles in a live setting; I know people who use that as their primary "sound" component. If you don't have amps and pedals, I'm not sure how you play a gig. Maybe you can rent stuff, I suppose, but if you're playing a guitar through a laptop it's no different than playing through a Boss stomp box. Eddie is douche-y when it comes to this stuff; I think it's because he has a number of friends that play in bands that play to 34 people in small bars. I ignore him as soon as he starts to separate out Kiss; he's just bitter that Gene and Paul don't kiss his ass like Ace and Peter do.
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I hate to agree with Trunk to a degree...but...
When shit happened back in the day, and it did, you went out and fucking performed. It didn't matter. You went out on stage and gave it all you had, despite the difficulties.
I am a fan of technology...providing backing sound effects. I'm NOT okay with laptops running and filling the role of main instruments or vocals. I hate that a majority of bands use laptops for backing vocals. It's ridiculous. Even a lead singer singing along to a lead vocal track in the background -- that's dumb. You're just covering up your own inadequacies.
Let me share a story. Several years ago, Tesseract was touring for their great Altered State album. I was lucky enough to note that they were doing a tiny club in San Francisco called the DNA Lounge, and being a huge fan of that album, I jumped on that ticket. A couple days (a week? I don't recall) prior to the show, I heard that one of the guitar players had to fly back home to Europe to handle a personal matter. Okay, I figured they'd have their guitar tech or a replacement.
I get to the show (Intronaut opened, and they were pretty good), and finally Tesseract hits the stage. And I see their other guitar player setting up the laptop which proceeded to run the missing guitar player's parts. I was crushed. I was pissed. I didn't come to a show to see half the fucking guitar tracks off a computer. I can sit home and listen to the record. So here I am, grumpier as fuck, and I go get a beer. Come back, settle in for the performance. The singer, Ashe O'Hara, sounded talented as hell on the record. Really impressed by him. So I was going to overlook the guitar thing and just have a good time.
Not.
They start playing, and Ashe is literally singing bits and pieces of all the songs, letting his pre-recorded lead vocal track take most of each song. I fucking booed them. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe the crowd (which had its share of people my age, but many 10 or so years younger), was OKAY with this. It was a complete fucking farce. To this day, eight years later, it is one of the biggest disappointments among the 270ish shows I've seen in my lifetime. It was literally a band playing along with their own pre-recorded shit. And Ashe O'Hara simply wussed out on every single decent note, letting his track cover it.
I say all this to say, Falling in Reverse should be ashamed of itself. Tech fails, you re-imagine the setlist, plug the fuck in, and play. Bunch of soft-ass pussies.
And yes, I said that. And I don't care. Tell Ronnie.
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This was kind of funny: "Just hired this entire orchestra, bought their flights, hotel, food, 4 buses, so they can play the 35 second intro of voices in my head so @EddieTrunk can respect us on his podcast that has less listeners than people in this picture."
Look, laptops can play a number of roles in a live setting; I know people who use that as their primary "sound" component. If you don't have amps and pedals, I'm not sure how you play a gig. Maybe you can rent stuff, I suppose, but if you're playing a guitar through a laptop it's no different than playing through a Boss stomp box. Eddie is douche-y when it comes to this stuff; I think it's because he has a number of friends that play in bands that play to 34 people in small bars.
Completely agree.
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I read a quote regarding this thing where the band said not having a laptop is like "It's like driving a car without an engine." No, it's more like driving a car without a GPS. You can still get by without a GPS, but it's a nice luxury item to have and you should have the knowledge of how to get to point A and point B if for some reason you don't have a GPS depending on location.
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To reiterate an important point NotStadler made, do any of us even know what purpose these laptops served? I see a lot of assumptions that it's just backing tracks/clicks, but it also may very well be all of their amps/effects/etc. Not every band is Led Zeppelin and can just plug into some Marshalls and call it a day.
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To reiterate an important point NotStadler made, do any of us even know what purpose these laptops served? I see a lot of assumptions that it's just backing tracks/clicks, but it also may very well be all of their amps/effects/etc. Not every band is Led Zeppelin and can just plug into some Marshalls and call it a day.
Any band worth their salt can plug in and play. they CHOOSE not to, for various purposes. And when the laptops go down, you have to improvise. If you can't, or won't, it says a lot about the band.
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I say all this to say, Falling in Reverse should be ashamed of itself. Tech fails, you re-imagine the setlist, plug the fuck in, and play. Bunch of soft-ass pussies.
This is basically how I feel. Shit happens on tour, but bands (the good ones IMO) find a way to over come.
To reiterate an important point NotStadler made, do any of us even know what purpose these laptops served? I see a lot of assumptions that it's just backing tracks/clicks, but it also may very well be all of their amps/effects/etc. Not every band is Led Zeppelin and can just plug into some Marshalls and call it a day.
I'm not entirely sure what the laptops in this case are specifically used for, but if a band can't just plug in (maybe to someone elses gear, it was a festival so I have to imagine they could have gotten gear to plug into) and play their music, then they aren't quite what they make themselves out to be IMO. It very likely wouldn't of been how they want to sound, but the show could have gone on (well it did, another band took their spot). I just read a lot when bands do have to cancel how they say they tried everything to be able to play the show and it just couldn't happen. Watching Ronnie's tiktok explaining why they had to cancel didn't really mention trying another band's gear or trying to rework the set so they could perform.
Earlier this year I saw Mammoth WVH and Wolfie came out when the set started saying that the 2nd guitarist had an emergency and isn't here. He said he could have played to a backing track or cancelled the show, but he didn't want to so he wrote himself new guitar parts so that he could play a mix of both guitars to make it sound as close to the album as possible, but admitted it would fall short. It was AWESOME. He sounded great still and even though it was noticeable without the guitar layering, I don't think a single person in the crowd was upset. In fact, it turned out to be a unique show in the end. To me, examples of this show the difference between the top musicians and the rest.
Having said that, I think Eddies wrong on some level too. Him constantly propping up HIS bands is lame. There's certainly a place in live music for laptops, I don't think it's an all or nothing argument he seems to make it out to be. Lots of HIS bands do use laptops too.
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To reiterate an important point NotStadler made, do any of us even know what purpose these laptops served? I see a lot of assumptions that it's just backing tracks/clicks, but it also may very well be all of their amps/effects/etc. Not every band is Led Zeppelin and can just plug into some Marshalls and call it a day.
Any band worth their salt can plug in and play. they CHOOSE not to, for various purposes. And when the laptops go down, you have to improvise. If you can't, or won't, it says a lot about the band.
Not if you don't have it. I mean that literally; you can't play what you don't have. If I go to a gig, and I bring my my guitar, my cables, my stomp boxes, and my amp, and my guitar gets stolen...I'm kind of fucked unless I can pull rabbits out of the hat before I go on. If the laptops are doing backing tracks, I'm with you all. If the laptops are serving as the "stomp boxes... amp" part of that signal chain, the options drop. Sure they can borrow equipment from someone else, but I don't know; you can only go so far with that.
Generally, I'm with you all; I too believe that a guitar player should be able to plug in and play. That's what we're paying to see. But I think we might have incomplete information here to start accusing a band - that I've never heard of before - of not bringing the goods live.
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Some pretty elitist comments here. Not every band is a garage rock and roll band that plugs in and jams. A lot of modern music has dimensions that this won't cover.
Not saying this relates to whatever the band in question is, since I haven't heard of them before, but unless we know what those laptops are for, it doesn't really do any good to judge them for cancelling due to their absence.
As far as I'm concerned, as a dude who has historically played live with laptops because of extensive keyboard tracks and no keyboardist, the band gets to decide how they want to present themselves. I checked out a few bits of two songs of this band and they seem to use a lot of backing keyboard/electronic tracks and maybe they feel their music will sound pretty awful without it. That's their call. They did what they feel is best and don't seem to be making a huge deal out of it. The only people who seem upset are the ones angry at them for using laptops.
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I have no idea who this band is, but if their laptop was that instrumental to their live performance, and it was malfunctioning, then they couldn't do it, and Eddie Trunk is a doofus either way.
Of course, then the guy loses any credibility he may have had with his rage tweets.
Not sure why Sebastian Bach is still relevant, TBH. Can't figure that one out.
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So I never heard of this band and before commenting, I wanted to check out their music to see. Typical modern rock with some rapping here and there, nothing crazy.
However, listening to their live set, even the drums seems to go through effects, meaning that their laptops are essential to their sound, so not sure how they would be able to perform without it.
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The only people who seem upset are the ones angry at them for using laptops.
TBH, I think it's funny that Eddie Trunk is the one who started it, and he would never be caught dead at one of their shows anyway, so I have no idea why he would give a fuck.
Oh yeah, it's because he thinks he is the hard rock gatekeeper, or guardian of the realm, or something.
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Some pretty elitist comments here. Not every band is a garage rock and roll band that plugs in and jams. A lot of modern music has dimensions that this won't cover.
Not saying this relates to whatever the band in question is, since I haven't heard of them before, but unless we know what those laptops are for, it doesn't really do any good to judge them for cancelling due to their absence.
As far as I'm concerned, as a dude who has historically played live with laptops because of extensive keyboard tracks and no keyboardist, the band gets to decide how they want to present themselves. I checked out a few bits of two songs of this band and they seem to use a lot of backing keyboard/electronic tracks and maybe they feel their music will sound pretty awful without it. That's their call. They did what they feel is best and don't seem to be making a huge deal out of it. The only people who seem upset are the ones angry at them for using laptops.
This
Also, one of the reasons overseas bands touring in the States is that a laptop or a computer based unit like a Line6 or the newest Neural DSP units where everything is emulated, is because shipping costs. It adds up...Smaller bands cant' take such hits. Big bands can afford to have 2 or 3 backups. I've seen some bands using iPads for their in-ear monitors and even some can just "drag and drop" pedals and run them through their laptop/iPad, etc.
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The only people who seem upset are the ones angry at them for using laptops.
TBH, I think it's funny that Eddie Trunk is the one who started it, and he would never be caught dead at one of their shows anyway, so I have no idea why he would give a fuck.
Oh yeah, it's because he thinks he is the hard rock gatekeeper, or guardian of the realm, or something.
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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I have a little experience on this (not as much as Adami). A band I used to play in did mostly all live performance, but we did have a couple of songs worked up that we used enhancements going through a laptop (orchestra, choral, extra instrumental parts) tied to a click that I (the drummer) had to play along with. If anything happened to the tech, no way in hell could we have done any of those particular songs - stripping them down to only the band playing their physical instruments would have made them essentially different songs, and defeated the purpose of using all of those enhancements in the first place. If our entire set was set up that way, and the laptop went down, we would have been dead in the water. Like this band apparently felt they were.
Doesn't mean the guy isn't a douche for his rage tweets, I'm just sayin'.
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"Elitist." :lol
I listened to their music too, to get an idea. Yep, I'd imagine they'd need a lot of tech to pull it off. But here's what I don't understand. Why isn't everything they need backed up on multiple different laptops...so if one fails, or one is stolen, they have multiple devices with all their shit ready to go? Seems awfully unprepared to me, especially a band like Falling in Reverse who tours heavily.
Again, if the laptop is an "instrument" per se, for means of..."performing" the music, then why aren't they prepared? It's preposterous to me. Goo's point about affordability of backups is a good one. But if you're touring hard, it would seem silly to me that they wouldn't have a backup prepared. That's just good sense.
And the bottom line for me is - you signed to perform. You cashed that check. You should be prepared to perform. And if they weren't, that's really on them. Canceling because of a stolen computer seems idiotic. A professional touring band should be way more prepared.
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While giving the band the benefit of doubt about how instrumental the laptops were in their performance, this seem a good occasion as any to remember Turisas, a folk metal band, playing a festival in Italy in 2007.
Their bassist fell ill two few days before their performance... they found a replacement on 48 hours notice.
On the day of the show, their equipment didn't arrive along with them, so they had no guitars and not even their makeup - they asked another band, Ensiferum, to lend them their instruments, and they asked fans outside the gates of the arena if they had some makeup they could borrow for their "war paint".
The violin player was supposed to come in on the same day, but a bird got stuck in the engine of a plane (when it rains, it pours, uh?) and his flight was delayed beyond the playing time.
The band with borrowed instruments and make up and a violinist down started to play on time, the violin player eventually arrived midway through the fourth song or so (he didn't even appear for a full song, he appeared mid song, so I like to believe he was frantically rushed in from the airport, maybe tuning his violin in the car, arrived at the show, heard the music, thought to himself "mh, were are we? ah, ok, it's this song, got it" and appeared on stage the very second he was ready to go).
So, while not every band performance is the same and I accept that laptops can be crucial for a show..... if you really wanna play, you play, as Turisas showed. I'll always remember the singer shouting at the end with rage "we came, we played!!!", venting their frustations of having performed in full and on time a show the gods of heavy metal seemingly didn't want them to play.
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The article I saw mentioned "laptops" So it's possible they had backups and all of them were stolen.
And it happened the night before the gig. Not enough time to retool their entire show and figure it all out. Whether or not they kept the money is between them and the promotor or whomever. I doubt they cancelled last minute and kept all the cash with no problem.
I am just sensing a lot of anger toward them and I am just not seeing why. The night before a show, their laptops were stolen, they did not feel they could give a good show so they cancelled. These things happen. Bands cancel all time, sometimes for missing gear as well.
I just do NOT see why this is a huge deal or making people so judgy.
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While giving the band the benefit of doubt about how instrumental the laptops were in their performance, this seem a good occasion as any to remember Turisas, a folk metal band, playing a festival in Italy in 2007.
Their bassist fell ill two few days before their performance... they found a replacement on 48 hours notice.
On the day of the show, their equipment didn't arrive along with them, so they had no guitars and not even their makeup - they asked another band, Ensiferum, to lend them their instruments, and they asked fans outside the gates of the arena if they had some makeup they could borrow for their "war paint".
The violin player was supposed to come in on the same day, but a bird got stuck in the engine of a plane (when it rains, it pours, uh?) and his flight was delayed beyond the playing time.
The band with borrowed instruments and make up and a violinist down started to play on time, the violin player eventually arrived midway through the fourth song or so (he didn't even appear for a full song, he appeared mid song, so I like to believe he was frantically rushed in from the airport, maybe tuning his violin in the car, arrived at the show, heard the music, thought to himself "mh, were are we? ah, ok, it's this song, got it" and appeared on stage the very second he was ready to go).
So, while not every band performance is the same and I accept that laptops can be crucial for a show..... if you really wanna play, you play, as Turisas showed. I'll always remember the singer shouting at the end with rage "we came, we played!!!", venting their frustations of having performed in full and on time a show the gods of heavy metal seemingly didn't want them to play.
That is a crazy story! Wow! And yea, kudos to that band for going as far as they did. But you can't hold every band to that standard.
Nightwish still played a show the night their singer went to the hospital by getting the backing singers from Kamelot to stand in last minute. Does that mean every band who cancels if their singer becomes ill is doing the wrong thing?
If JLB had to rush to the hospital, we'd all be dumping on DT if they cancelled?
If JR had all of his gear stolen (similar to what I assume was on their laptops) we'd all be judging DT for not playing sans keyboards?
I mean maybe, but damn that's a high standard.
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Seems like you're the one being "judgy" with that "elitist" comment, Adami. Didn't appreciate that, because obviously, it's directed at me or one other person. A mod should know better.
24 hours to rework a special set is something other bands do in their sleep. I respect they felt they couldn't give a good show given the circumstances. But they shouldn't have canceled. They should have told the crowd what happened, and give them the best show they could. You make due with what you have. And if they can't pull it off, perhaps they need to rethink how to present their music.
If JR had his gear stolen, he'd probably go get some equipment and make it happen. And if he didn't, and DT didn't perform, yes, I'd complain about that. You make due with what you have, and you perform. That's what professionals do. I don't have a lot of regard for bands canceling shows unless it is something extreme. People pay big money to see bands perform. I feel like bands owe the audience their best effort.
edit - the singer is a different story, IMO. I mean, yeah, DT could play instrumental, but 99 percent of other bands' fanbases wouldn't accept that. Perhaps Falling in Reverse's fanbase wouldn't have accepted an actual "rock" show as opposed to all the sound effects and whatever else they do? I don't know.
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The only people who seem upset are the ones angry at them for using laptops.
TBH, I think it's funny that Eddie Trunk is the one who started it, and he would never be caught dead at one of their shows anyway, so I have no idea why he would give a fuck.
Oh yeah, it's because he thinks he is the hard rock gatekeeper, or guardian of the realm, or something.
+1 on this :lol
I listened to their music too, to get an idea. Yep, I'd imagine they'd need a lot of tech to pull it off. But here's what I don't understand. Why isn't everything they need backed up on multiple different laptops...so if one fails, or one is stolen, they have multiple devices with all their shit ready to go? Seems awfully unprepared to me, especially a band like Falling in Reverse who tours heavily.
My understanding is they have multiple laptops but all of them were not there and they blamed their crew for not having the gear at their location on time. Nothing was stolen and they mention multiple laptops so maybe there are back ups, but they were all in the same spot which was not where the band was. He also mentioned they hardly practiced before the show since they had just come off tour. Makes me wonder if that plays a role too.
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THEY BLAMED THE CREW?! Talk about unprofessional...now you're saying that they hardly practiced? WTF is that? That's totally unprofessional. See what I mean...ugh.
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1) I am not a mod.
2) Elitist may very well be the wrong word, but you (and others) are being extremely judgmental. So whatever the correct word is, then replace elitist with that. Feel free to use judgmental. That's not an insulting term, it's you all judging the hell out of this band for doing something you don't personally approve of.
3) 24 hours to work out a special set is NOT something most bands do in their sleep. Maybe some, for sure, but most? Can DT work out a sans JR set in 24 hours? Again, maybe, but I'm skeptical. We also don't know how long they knew about this. Maybe they had a few hours. Who knows?
Again, you're just judging the hell out of this band and I don't feel it's deserved. But you do what you feel is right. I'm out, this isn't worth my energy. I don't know this band and I don't care about this band. I just don't like the mean spirit behind a lot of these judgments, but I know when I'm not getting anywhere and making things worse, so y'all have at it.
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I guess I got confused by the line by your name. I didn't pick up on "of awesomeness." Sorry about that.
You can call EVERYONE who posts about ANYTHING they have an opinion on as "judgmental." You're not excluded from that either.
Edit: And to be clear, nothing is personal. I am of the TAC mind about this message board. It's me sitting at a bar with everyone and we throw shit to the wall and have a discussion. You seem like a good person Adami and given you're here, your taste in music is probably damn good too.
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TBH, I think it's funny that Eddie Trunk is the one who started it, and he would never be caught dead at one of their shows anyway, so I have no idea why he would give a fuck.
Oh yeah, it's because he thinks he is the hard rock gatekeeper, or guardian of the realm, or something.
Eddie Trunk is a douche. And everyone but himself knows it. That said, I got a visual of him in a shepherd's outfit for Halloween, only letting 70s and 80s acts into a concert arena. :lol
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I may sound like Mr. Obvious here but this situation is symptomatic of a much larger issue that I spend a fair amount of time pondering.
Technology has become so necessary for every day functionality for humans that it might as well be our appendages. Take it away and we cease to function. The bottom falls out. To me, this is concerning.
My gigging days were long before laptops so we never had to deal with these issues. Broken strings, drumheads, pedals...etc., were our issues.
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This Eddie yelling, "Get off My Metal Lawn!"
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I guess I'm somewhere in the middle on all of this. But I lean more towards what Adami was saying. We don't know the full story, and without knowing that, how can anyone really say what they should have done?
ideally, all bands would go through all of their equipment and come up with a backup plan for what to do if it were to break or get stolen. Maybe they have backups that they keep in a different spot in the bus/trailer/etc. Maybe they can't afford backups for everything, so it would be nice if they had a set prepared that they could perform without their laptops and other gear. Maybe they'd have to explain to the audience - "our x/y/z broke so we're just going to play an acoustic set for you tonight" or "we're doing a stripped down set so bear with us..." But then I bet people would complain anyway. And, I'm not a musician so I can't say how realistic it would be for a band who uses a lot of backing tracks to have "just in case" setlists prepared.
In the end, I guess hearing a story like Turisas would make me have more respect for the band, but them having to cancel wouldn't necessarily make me have less respect for them.
And as for Tesseract... it seems like me that Daniel Tompkins doesn't rely on backing tracks to the extent Samsara described. They certainly use them for backing vocals (and I don't really care), but I don't think he's just singing bits and pieces here and there.
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This might be relevant to share, but during a live set, the in-ear monitor for Polyphia's drummer stopped working, and the work around was his drumtech becoming a human metronome :lol
https://youtube.com/shorts/MwkVvm-IPko?feature=share
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I've heard a couple podcasts discuss this incident. From what I've been able to surmise, a large part of FIR's music relies upon technology (i.e. - laptops). I don't know whether that means loops, triggers, backing tracks or what. However, everyone seems to be saying since Eddie knows absolutely nothing about the band, their sound and what is required to achieve their sound, he needs to shut his sanctimonious pie hole. I listen to Trunk and enjoy a lot of his schtick. However, when he gets on his soapbox and shrieks about his ever-growing list of pet peeves, I tune out. I agree with his stance on people miming to lead vocal tracks. If you can't sing it live, it might be time to call it a day. But, there are bands that can't duplicate their sound without technology and there's complete transparency and it's obvious to all their fans who listen to and enjoy their music. And, you have people like ET, with no knowledge of a band, screaming at the top of his lungs about what a travesty it is. Not all music is created by a traditional four- or five-piece. If you're not a fan of the music, you really have no room to comment on the situation. Nor, should you care.
I hate auto-tuning and all the "music" that relies upon it. I can't understand how people can appreciate it and it bothers me that my daughter enjoys some of the stuff. Ultimately, it's not for me and not worth getting aggravated over. This falls under the same category. Maybe they have backups of their laptops on different laptops and lost them, too. I know nothing about FIR and don't care why they choose to cancel gigs. My live goes on just the same. I'll enjoy my DT, Rush and Metallica albums/concerts and not lose a wink of sleep over the stuff I don't listen to.
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I can see laptops and associated tech being essential for some artists. Not only solely due to sound, but also because it can be incorporated in the way they rehearse, interact with each other etc. If that suddenly falls away, it might be unviable for an artist to still do the show.
It is very different, but I sing in an acapella group and we usually perform in small halls without microphones or tech. For one stage thing we suddenly had to use mics and it was terrible. I could not hear the cues / smaller interactions I am used to focus on and that was the biggest problem. If a band is used to playing with/around certain tracks, and those fall away, I can see that being a problem.
Whether people like it or not, tech is common and very accessible these days, so many artists that build their repetoire around it from the ground up. I don't know anything about this band in particular and how they prepare, but I don't think them cancelling due to an issue like this is a big deal. Offcourse I do think it is better if an artist is able to continue a show and adapt, but I don't blame any for not doing that.
The discussion of what is acceptable to use as a track and what not to me is a different discussion. I do agree that many artists use too much or use it too upfront. Especially playbacking of lead vocals bothers me. And I appreciate artists that go out of their way to do as much as they can live. But keep in mind this is not really a new thing, laptops or not. I know for example Jethro Tull used a tape for the harmony vocals in Songs from the Woods in the 70's, more than 40 years ago.
Edit: Just looked up the band in question, yeah, their decision makes total sense. It is fine to not enjoy this type of music, but the electronic component is clearly a big part of their sound.
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The only people who seem upset are the ones angry at them for using laptops.
TBH, I think it's funny that Eddie Trunk is the one who started it, and he would never be caught dead at one of their shows anyway, so I have no idea why he would give a fuck.
Oh yeah, it's because he thinks he is the hard rock gatekeeper, or guardian of the realm, or something.
He's not even the Keymaster of Gozar.
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Seems like you're the one being "judgy" with that "elitist" comment, Adami. Didn't appreciate that, because obviously, it's directed at me or one other person. A mod should know better.
24 hours to rework a special set is something other bands do in their sleep. I respect they felt they couldn't give a good show given the circumstances. But they shouldn't have canceled. They should have told the crowd what happened, and give them the best show they could. You make due with what you have. And if they can't pull it off, perhaps they need to rethink how to present their music.
If JR had his gear stolen, he'd probably go get some equipment and make it happen. And if he didn't, and DT didn't perform, yes, I'd complain about that. You make due with what you have, and you perform. That's what professionals do. I don't have a lot of regard for bands canceling shows unless it is something extreme. People pay big money to see bands perform. I feel like bands owe the audience their best effort.
edit - the singer is a different story, IMO. I mean, yeah, DT could play instrumental, but 99 percent of other bands' fanbases wouldn't accept that. Perhaps Falling in Reverse's fanbase wouldn't have accepted an actual "rock" show as opposed to all the sound effects and whatever else they do? I don't know.
Kiss did that; Paul had a heart problem right before going on, and Gene went out and sang the whole set (I don't think he sang any Paul songs, though). This wasn't that long ago, either (after the reunion, after the makeup came back on, and after Pete and Ace whigged out yet again).
I don't know; I'm not giving them a pass - I see where Samsara is coming from - but I think some of the vitriol is harsh, especially from someone like Eddie Trunk that should know better. Eddie and Samsara are NOT arguing the same thing. Eddie is just stuck on his soapbox, sticking up for his buddies who, like I said, play to 34 people "but it's live!".
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I guess I got confused by the line by your name. I didn't pick up on "of awesomeness." Sorry about that.
You can call EVERYONE who posts about ANYTHING they have an opinion on as "judgmental." You're not excluded from that either.
Edit: And to be clear, nothing is personal. I am of the TAC mind about this message board. It's me sitting at a bar with everyone and we throw shit to the wall and have a discussion. You seem like a good person Adami and given you're here, your taste in music is probably damn good too.
Well, not really. ;) :) :) :) :) :) :) :):):)
I kid; I love Adami, and he's a GREAT guy. But then, I'm always wrong, so there's that. :)
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Another example I forgot until now:
Alter Bridge's Fall 2019 tour...Myles Kennedy got a cold, couldn't sing a ton. Mark Tremonti took over and they redid the setlist to incorporate more AB tunes that Mark felt he could sing well. The crowd loved it.
Again, I totally get artists who rely on tech for performance. But you either make sure you're prepared (and from what I gather, Falling in Reverse was NOT prepared, and shifted blame to their CREW of all people, who are the hardest working people in music) with backup gear, or you make sure your music can accommodate a shift in performance to something else (such as changing setlists, playing acoustic, doing SOMETHING). The LAST RESORT should be canceling a gig. Seems to me, the dude from Falling in Reverse just got caught with his pants down.
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I've heard a couple podcasts discuss this incident. From what I've been able to surmise, a large part of FIR's music relies upon technology (i.e. - laptops). I don't know whether that means loops, triggers, backing tracks or what. However, everyone seems to be saying since Eddie knows absolutely nothing about the band, their sound and what is required to achieve their sound, he needs to shut his sanctimonious pie hole. I listen to Trunk and enjoy a lot of his schtick. However, when he gets on his soapbox and shrieks about his ever-growing list of pet peeves, I tune out. I agree with his stance on people miming to lead vocal tracks. If you can't sing it live, it might be time to call it a day. But, there are bands that can't duplicate their sound without technology and there's complete transparency and it's obvious to all their fans who listen to and enjoy their music. And, you have people like ET, with no knowledge of a band, screaming at the top of his lungs about what a travesty it is. Not all music is created by a traditional four- or five-piece. If you're not a fan of the music, you really have no room to comment on the situation. Nor, should you care.
I hate auto-tuning and all the "music" that relies upon it. I can't understand how people can appreciate it and it bothers me that my daughter enjoys some of the stuff. Ultimately, it's not for me and not worth getting aggravated over. This falls under the same category. Maybe they have backups of their laptops on different laptops and lost them, too. I know nothing about FIR and don't care why they choose to cancel gigs. My live goes on just the same. I'll enjoy my DT, Rush and Metallica albums/concerts and not lose a wink of sleep over the stuff I don't listen to.
You and I are pretty close on all things Trunk. I agree with most of what you wrote, including the part about our daughters. But it's interesting; the more I dig in with what she listens to, the more I realize that, while I don't always like the ART, and while they are not always "John Petrucci-level", most of the music that she listens to, even that which relies on technology, is still created by ARTISTS. Post Malone IS a decent guitar player and singer, even if it doesn't come through on all his songs. Demi Lovato CAN sing, even if her voice is never really "naked" on record (then again, neither was John Lennon's and he's a legend).
Is the cover of Metallica's Load any less "art" because it wasn't made with old-school oil-based paint? Are photographs any less "art" because they aren't on old-school film developed in a dark room? I agree with Samsara that maybe cancelling outright wasn't optimal, but I don't void this band for not wanting to present their art like they want to present it. How is this different than Mike not going on The Today Show because the show wanted the band to appear as a trio and do their "ballad"?
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Yeah, call me new fashioned or something, but I see this as a complete non-story and Trunk remains a big dork. If the band needs their computers to perform, then well, that sucks but whatever. I've never heard of this band before, so at least they are getting some free publicity out of all of this.
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Yeah, call me new fashioned or something, but I see this as a complete non-story and Trunk remains a big dork. If the band needs their computers to perform, then well, that sucks but whatever. I've never heard of this band before, so at least they are getting some free publicity out of all of this.
It's not a story, but it IS a chance for Ed to pimp his buddies.
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I listened to their music too, to get an idea. Yep, I'd imagine they'd need a lot of tech to pull it off. But here's what I don't understand. Why isn't everything they need backed up on multiple different laptops...so if one fails, or one is stolen, they have multiple devices with all their shit ready to go? Seems awfully unprepared to me, especially a band like Falling in Reverse who tours heavily.
I agree with this - if a band needs the backing tracks, then they need to make sure they can play when things go to hell. Have backups ready, have an FTP server with this stuff so you can download it remotely onto a different device, etc.
There was a story about Amaranthe's set at ProgPower USA years ago - their computers wouldn't work, which is how they get the keyboard sounds during their songs. The band somehow downloaded the sounds from somewhere online and rigged up an iPod to play them during they show. They figured out how to make the show happen. That's how a band should operate, as opposed to whining about it when things don't work out.
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Another example I forgot until now:
Alter Bridge's Fall 2019 tour...Myles Kennedy got a cold, couldn't sing a ton. Mark Tremonti took over and they redid the setlist to incorporate more AB tunes that Mark felt he could sing well. The crowd loved it.
Again, I totally get artists who rely on tech for performance. But you either make sure you're prepared (and from what I gather, Falling in Reverse was NOT prepared, and shifted blame to their CREW of all people, who are the hardest working people in music) with backup gear, or you make sure your music can accommodate a shift in performance to something else (such as changing setlists, playing acoustic, doing SOMETHING). The LAST RESORT should be canceling a gig. Seems to me, the dude from Falling in Reverse just got caught with his pants down.
I don't see why an artist should do that, but I think this is a case of agree to disagree.
It is a big plus if they do, but if they crafted their show in a certain way and that way was not possible, I can't fault them. This really does not seem like a small background component of their music missing. Just listen to some of their top songs, what you ask for will require major rearrangements for sure.
As for blaming the crew. I agree you should not do that on social media, at all. But if a person or a team of people at any workplace is responsible for valuable items and those items went missing, they typically will be hold accountable. If I lose thousands worth of tech at my work I would have something to explain, and rightfully so. So, if it is them who lost several laptops (plural) and they are they are the people handling them/responsible for said items, who else is to blame?
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Ahh...The situation of the ever expanding utilization of technology.
For me, it doesn't matter. But, also, as a band, technology should not be something you rely upon.
The question for me is...How does a band/artist who utilizes a lot of other tracks in their music, such as keyboards or orchestral music, without a keyboard player, or without an orchestra, going to replicate it live? How will a musician present the music as intended by the artist without all those other tracks that are on the album? Such as Devin Townsend, yet he had an idea to not utilize computers for the Empathy Vol.1 tour and had to hire a lot more musicians, just to replicate those parts live.
There's bands now that utilize the tracking options when recording and those actual tracks are then sampled onto the live DAW. From there you can choose to trigger the sounds, or have them synched with everything else, such as the lights.
Most of these "-core" bands have keyboards in their music and have moments where they utilize certain sounds, such as using some Hip-Hop patches such as the bass drops and other patches that can be changed using the laptop when the band gets to that part in the song.
I saw The Devil Wears Prada one time opening for Killswitch or All That Remains, and their keyboardist didnt really do much but jump around on stage, and played some sounds on his keyboards, but it looks like he was triggering certain sounds and samples.
I like this podcasters intro with another podcaster saying.."if Rodney Radke, MGK, or Corey Taylor does something, every singke YouTuber in the world is going to talk about it because we are desperate for news " and that right there pretty much sums up why this even being mentioned at all. "I would love for that to not be the case, but you dipshits need to learn to click on things that are not just drama."
https://youtu.be/0H_nelVq5yE
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Delete cause my dumbass thought I was modifying my post, but I hit quote and just hit post. :rollin
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I'm somewhat ambivalent on the topic, but, when in doubt, I find it's usually a safe bet to pick the side that doesn't include Trunk and/or Bach.
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I think, for the musicians on the board, our personal background obviously informs our school of thought.
Adami has played in situations where laptops helped provide a 'keyboard' role
I've never played with a click and I've played plenty of shows on borrowed equipment—I do my homework; hand me a guitar and I'll figure it out.
In both cases, we are falling where we fall in our judgement due, at least in part, to these experiences (for the record, I'm with Trunk on this...to a point).
That said, the vast majority of people simply don't care.
A quick story: I once went to see a band and the opener was this female singer/songwriter playing along to a laptop, doing the whole 9 yards. I stood there, arms folded, totally turned off by something that failed to jive with my preconceived notions of what constitutes a 'live' performance.
Then, her rig stopped working. You know what happened next? She asked someone if she could borrow an acoustic, and three minutes later, she finished what is one of the most amazing performances I have ever seen. The whole thing really altered my train of thought on this discussion.
She 'could' play her songs with any treatment she wanted. She preferred the whole 'laptop' thing (probably because it matched her recorded vision), but she was more than capable of doing everything without it.
After three songs, she apologized for the abbreviated set and left the stage. Crazy part is, her charisma had the audience wanting more, and I don't know that it had anything to do with the presentation.
TL;DR — I'm of the mind that the artist can do whatever they want.
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Since we're in sort of summary mode, I think my biggest beef is really about Trunk jumping to conclusions. "Laptop" = "Fake". I think there are points of merit on both sides, and ought to be taken on a case-by-case basis.
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I think 95 percent of us at least agree that Eddie Trunk is a douche. :lol
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I think 95 percent of us at least agree that Eddie Trunk is a douche. :lol
"Self-serving" also comes to mind.
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Oh, and I spotted THREE laptops at the Petrucci show last night. WANKER!! :)
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Oh, and I spotted THREE laptops at the Petrucci show last night. WANKER!! :)
Yea, but how many were for MP to write his next press statement?
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Oh, and I spotted THREE laptops at the Petrucci show last night. WANKER!! :)
Speaking of, I'm avoiding the JP thread to not read any setlist spoilers. Are you still going to the NYC show?
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Oh, and I spotted THREE laptops at the Petrucci show last night. WANKER!! :)
Speaking of, I'm avoiding the JP thread to not read any setlist spoilers. Are you still going to the NYC show?
Most likely, though not a 100% definite. If I didn't go, though, it wouldn't be because it's not worth it. I sat there with a stupid grin on my face for 90% of the show. Even Meanstreak was excellent, I thought.
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Oh, and I spotted THREE laptops at the Petrucci show last night. WANKER!! :)
Yea, but how many were for MP to write his next press statement?
:rollin
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Rick Beato weighed in on this with some level headed commentary.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2iGm6fMtvqeSH8EejZLXSZuVNJlAzo7R-Hl7mDxmkUZdTLGQYXf9SB11c&v=SZXUPuiC9Eo&feature=youtu.be
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Rick Beato weighed in on this with some level headed commentary.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2iGm6fMtvqeSH8EejZLXSZuVNJlAzo7R-Hl7mDxmkUZdTLGQYXf9SB11c&v=SZXUPuiC9Eo&feature=youtu.be
I haven't watched, as I can't at the moment, but I watched this a bit ago and Justin Hawkins chimed in and I also thought it was pretty level headed (and he doesn't take a side) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKFFpOSKlqM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKFFpOSKlqM)
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And John Petrucci weighs in (basically the same take as Beato)!
Given your reputation for proficiency on your instrument, what are your thoughts on your contemporaries using backing tracks in the live setting?
“It depends on what people are doing because some people don't tour with their whole bands, so they have sound effects and things going on. If they're up there playing their asses off, and they have some sound effects backing that up while they're doing it, that doesn't really bother me.
“Having said that, I think that if anybody's up there faking it or pretending, that's a whole different thing.
“But I think things have changed a lot; you'll have a lot of bands that just go out with two guys now, maybe it's just a guitar player and a drummer, so they need a pre-recorded bass player. If that's the case, then I guess they have to do what they have to do to keep the show going. So, while I am not for people fake playing, it really depends on the situation.”
https://www.guitarworld.com/features/john-petrucci-terminal-velocity-tour
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Rick Beato weighed in on this with some level headed commentary.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2iGm6fMtvqeSH8EejZLXSZuVNJlAzo7R-Hl7mDxmkUZdTLGQYXf9SB11c&v=SZXUPuiC9Eo&feature=youtu.be
There you go.
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Eddie Trunk is an out of touch goof. He's still butthurt over Steel Panther because he believes they're mocking/disrespecting '80's rock.
The dumb ass fails to realize they are fans of the bands they've emulated.
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Rick Beato weighed in on this with some level headed commentary.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2iGm6fMtvqeSH8EejZLXSZuVNJlAzo7R-Hl7mDxmkUZdTLGQYXf9SB11c&v=SZXUPuiC9Eo&feature=youtu.be
He does a good job explaining what they do and what service they provide for a band.
But since he's a producer that produces backing tracks for bands, I'll take his opinion on the matter with a big grain of salt. He benefits from bands using them.
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Rick Beato weighed in on this with some level headed commentary.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2iGm6fMtvqeSH8EejZLXSZuVNJlAzo7R-Hl7mDxmkUZdTLGQYXf9SB11c&v=SZXUPuiC9Eo&feature=youtu.be
He does a good job explaining what they do and what service they provide for a band.
But since he's a producer that produces backing tracks for bands, I'll take his opinion on the matter with a big grain of salt. He benefits from bands using them.
Well, his opinion isn’t really relevant (you either like it or you don’t), but he does provide some useful information about why bands use this stuff and how they have been doing something like this pretty much forever, so it makes the Trunk side seem kind of silly for making a big deal about it.
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Yeah, I mean, I love Beato's videos. But he does have a conflict of interest a bit.
Look, regardless of this discussion, I DO understand how reliant bands are on technology. In all honesty, after reading more about the issue, I get it. Some folks just aren't your traditional guitars-drums-keys-vocals band.
I guess what my old fogey self has a hard time understanding why such...tech-reliant bands are caught not prepared. It may be costly, but that should be a cost/investment built into your touring business. Sure, my comment of "plug in and play" may be a bit Boomer-ish in retrospect, but I don't know, the point still has merit - you booked a show, you should be able to perform unless something out of your control happens (severe illness, accident, etc.). I don't accept the notion that not having backups of the tech you need, or not being rehearsed as an excuse for not performing. That is on the artist.
And yes, bands have been using tech for ages now. But I guess what bothers me most is the lack of preparedness.
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Rick Beato weighed in on this with some level headed commentary.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2iGm6fMtvqeSH8EejZLXSZuVNJlAzo7R-Hl7mDxmkUZdTLGQYXf9SB11c&v=SZXUPuiC9Eo&feature=youtu.be
He does a good job explaining what they do and what service they provide for a band.
But since he's a producer that produces backing tracks for bands, I'll take his opinion on the matter with a big grain of salt. He benefits from bands using them.
Well, his opinion isn’t really relevant (you either like it or you don’t), but he does provide some useful information about why bands use this stuff and how they have been doing something like this pretty much forever, so it makes the Trunk side seem kind of silly for making a big deal about it.
Yes, I said that.
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Watched the Rick Beato video, certainly a fair and solid opinion. I'm not sure his profession makes his thoughts different to me. I'm not buying backing tracks. I mean, he flat out says he would rather bands perform fully live (which is an opinion I share). But we all know the reality. Some of what he says is good insight into how the laptops work. One thing he mentioned was "it's the same show every night" and that's something that turns me off about backing tracks. You loose all that spontaneity and "feel" of the show.
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Rick Beato weighed in on this with some level headed commentary.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR2iGm6fMtvqeSH8EejZLXSZuVNJlAzo7R-Hl7mDxmkUZdTLGQYXf9SB11c&v=SZXUPuiC9Eo&feature=youtu.be
He does a good job explaining what they do and what service they provide for a band.
But since he's a producer that produces backing tracks for bands, I'll take his opinion on the matter with a big grain of salt. He benefits from bands using them.
Well, his opinion isn’t really relevant (you either like it or you don’t), but he does provide some useful information about why bands use this stuff and how they have been doing something like this pretty much forever, so it makes the Trunk side seem kind of silly for making a big deal about it.
Yes, I said that.
Yes you did. The information was more important than whether he likes it or not is what I was saying.
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Well, my post made two points. Neither is really more important than the other.
Also commentary to me means opinion, not explaining what/how it's used.
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author=TAC link=topic=57806.msg2931299#msg2931299 date=1666737920]
Well, my post made two points. Neither is really more important than the other.
Also commentary to me means opinion, not explaining what/how it's used.
Fair enough. Swap out commentary for insight.
Though this is the definition of commentary when I google it:
“an expression of opinions or offering of explanations about an event or situation.”
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author=TAC link=topic=57806.msg2931299#msg2931299 date=1666737920]
Well, my post made two points. Neither is really more important than the other.
Also commentary to me means opinion, not explaining what/how it's used.
Fair enough. Swap out commentary for insight.
Though this is the definition of commentary when I google it:
“an expression of opinions (TAC) or offering of explanations (HOF) about an event or situation.”
As usual, you and I are opposite! :lol
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author=TAC link=topic=57806.msg2931299#msg2931299 date=1666737920]
Well, my post made two points. Neither is really more important than the other.
Also commentary to me means opinion, not explaining what/how it's used.
Fair enough. Swap out commentary for insight.
Though this is the definition of commentary when I google it:
“an expression of opinions (TAC) or offering of explanations (HOF) about an event or situation.”
As usual, you and I are opposite! :lol
Ha!
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I thought the Rick Beato video was interesting, and informative. It didn't change my opinion all that much but it's nice to have some of that technical stuff reiterated.
For my part, I generally don't care that much. I agree with Samsara that it would be a good idea for band to be prepared if they have technical difficulties. Offer to do an acoustic set, have a stripped down version of your show prepared just in case, have multiple laptops that you store in different areas of the tour bus/trailer, etc. Do what it takes not to have to cancel. However, if a band does cancel, I don't think it merits the level of vitriol that we've seen from Trunk and others. If you like that band, I could see being upset at not seeing them, I could see being annoyed that they didn't have a back up plan, but at the end of the day... things happen.
I suppose I tend to agree with Petrucci's comment in general. A band touring without a bass player at all, as a matter of course, doesn't sit right with me. A band playing their asses off, as Petrucci states, but using backing tracks for effects, extra parts here and there, backing vocals, essentially the things Rick Beato mentioned - no problems.
And as for every show being the same.... I get that argument, but I don't think every show is the same even with backing tracks. Maybe it depends on the band. I've seen multiple Leprous shows on a tour and they use a click and their shows feel totally live, and intense, and awesome. They have their own character even if the tempo is the same and the lights are the same, etc. I've seen DT with and without a click and don't think either is better or worse aside from the changing/static setlist issue, but as Leprous often changes their setlist, the click isn't to blame (at least I don't think). DT in LA with a click is one of my favorite DT shows and there was something special about that show and it didn't at all feel like the same thing I'd seen in other cities. I saw 3 Katatonia shows in a row, they play to a click, and the 1st two shows were great but the third show was somehow better than the first two. How? I don't even know - there was something up with them and it passed to the crowd and back to them and something was in the air and the last thing on my mind is whether they had backing tracks or not.
I think if you have a band that can really play, that enjoys playing live, an that puts effort into putting on a great show, it can happen with or without backing tracks.
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To me it still comes down to the fact that there should really be no reason that you cannot go out there and just play. Everything may not be perfect, but people paid money and made plans to see them.
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Watched the Rick Beato video, certainly a fair and solid opinion. I'm not sure his profession makes his thoughts different to me. I'm not buying backing tracks. I mean, he flat out says he would rather bands perform fully live (which is an opinion I share). But we all know the reality. Some of what he says is good insight into how the laptops work. One thing he mentioned was "it's the same show every night" and that's something that turns me off about backing tracks. You loose all that spontaneity and "feel" of the show.
This hits to the point of bands wanting their concert performances to be more of a show rather than just guys playing music on a stage. The Stage Production is how the band wants to present their show, so this means they want it to be consistent each night as this is what they want to present to the audience. So any way a band can utilize technology to be consistent with the presentation of the show, they will use it.
I will say, that every time, I have noticed myself enjoying how each band presents their music in their show production. How the lights are utilized, their stage design, and also, how the band is dressed can play a part, such as dressing in black with shades, or how others utilize some form of costume design to present this vibe that fits with the type of music they are playing. This is all used to enhance the emotions and atmosphere of the music being played.
I do wonder if the pyro is also synced to the click, and if the band has visual signals set to these clicks to warn them of where not to be when the pyro goes off.
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I think any band that uses pyros knows when they are being used, and where not to stand.
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I somehow missed this thread before, but I saw Beato's link on it today (I have watched enough of his stuff to where his new videos pop up as recommended for me) and agreed with his overall take, for the most part.
I do think some rock bands/artists now use backing tracks as a crutch, like, "Oh, we can let them do most of the heavy lifting," but as a useful tool to play things that cannot be played live by the live band for example, it is fine.
Pop is a bit different, as I have said for years that I have no problem if a singer who does a lot of dance routines live lets the backing tracks do some or a lot of the heavy lifting. No one wants to go to a Madonna or Beyonce show and hear nothing but out of breath vocals because they are constantly moving and dancing.
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Eddie Trunk is an out of touch goof. He's still butthurt over Steel Panther because he believes they're mocking/disrespecting '80's rock.
The dumb ass fails to realize they are fans of the bands they've emulated.
His allegiance to average bands that were barely opening acts at their height let alone now is comical to me. It's all just music. He sounds like a 12-year-old that just discovered Kiss sometimes (which is what he is, I get that, but we all grow up at some point).
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I don't know. I think Eddie generally gets a bad rap. I mean, he's certainly earned his cliches, but he has a target audience and he generally delivers. He's a great advocate for 80's hard rock, and when he has guests on, he actually asks the right questions, things that actual fans would want to know, as opposed to general grab ass.
The fact that he has an opinion is fine with me, you know.."a couple of dudes talking music over a beer..."
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I don't know. I think Eddie generally gets a bad rap. I mean, he's certainly earned his cliches, but he has a target audience and he generally delivers. He's a great advocate for 80's hard rock, and when he has guests on, he actually asks the right questions, things that actual fans would want to know, as opposed to general grab ass.
The fact that he has an opinion is fine with me, you know.."a couple of dudes talking music over a beer..."
I don't argue with any of that, really. I used to listen to him a lot on satellite when I was living in Erie and going through my divorce (if you can find it anywhere, he did a two-night interview with Billy Squier that may be one of the three or four greatest rock star interviews EVER). I think what bothers me most is his self-promotion; the guy doesn't have a ton of humility, and it comes through in some of the arguments like this. He's pretty hypocritical when it comes to the bands that rub his nuts on air.
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Yeah I get that. I don't listen to him other than various clips. I just can't sit through a podcast of any kind.
But I like his passion. Yeah, he's a bit of a look at me kind of guy, but that doesn't really bother me too much.
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I think what bothers me most is his self-promotion; the guy doesn't have a ton of humility, and it comes through in some of the arguments like this. He's pretty hypocritical when it comes to the bands that rub his nuts on air.
Exactly how I feel about him.
Watched the Rick Beato video, certainly a fair and solid opinion. I'm not sure his profession makes his thoughts different to me. I'm not buying backing tracks. I mean, he flat out says he would rather bands perform fully live (which is an opinion I share). But we all know the reality. Some of what he says is good insight into how the laptops work. One thing he mentioned was "it's the same show every night" and that's something that turns me off about backing tracks. You loose all that spontaneity and "feel" of the show.
This hits to the point of bands wanting their concert performances to be more of a show rather than just guys playing music on a stage. The Stage Production is how the band wants to present their show, so this means they want it to be consistent each night as this is what they want to present to the audience. So any way a band can utilize technology to be consistent with the presentation of the show, they will use it.
Yeah, and I understand that. There's some bands out there that you could see multiple shows on a tour and not really notice any difference. Just going through the motions following the backing track to their set. I don't think this is the more common thing (maybe in other genres) but it does exist in rock. I really think that's more of the root issue here with Eddie but he's sticking too hard to his idea that all backing tracks are bad or the laptops are bad when there's plenty of good reasons to use them and plenty of history of using them.
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If he had any humility, I think he'd be the first to tell you that for all his time in 'rock' he doesn't know the first thing about performance or putting on a rock show. I saw Vivian Campbell play a "Last In Line" show with not one effects pedal; he was guitar, cord, and amp ONLY, but that's the exception to the rule. I can imagine Dave Murray being pretty upset if he didn't have his effect pedals in order.
By the way, I saw ZZ Top in the '90s and besides being short (they literally played for one hour as headliner; only Beady Eye came close to that) it was the first show in my life that I noticed that there were sounds coming from the stage that weren't or couldn't be created by the instruments on that stage. It was a bummer, even though Billy Gibbons played his ass off.
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Last week, Accept's singer, Mark Tornillo took ill. They played that night's show without him, with the different band members taking turns singing the songs.
I think they did cancel the next show, but got Jason McMaster from Dangerous Toys to fill in for the next show.
Instead of the quest to put on the "perfect show", Accept gave those fans a rare treat. Something that they'll definitely remember as special.
I'm completely with Trunk on this. A real band should be able to take the stage and play their instruments in a coherent manner. To me, Radke and his band come off as unprofessional and insecure.
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If he had any humility, I think he'd be the first to tell you that for all his time in 'rock' he doesn't know the first thing about performance or putting on a rock show. I saw Vivian Campbell play a "Last In Line" show with not one effects pedal; he was guitar, cord, and amp ONLY, but that's the exception to the rule. I can imagine Dave Murray being pretty upset if he didn't have his effect pedals in order.
By the way, I saw ZZ Top in the '90s and besides being short (they literally played for one hour as headliner; only Beady Eye came close to that) it was the first show in my life that I noticed that there were sounds coming from the stage that weren't or couldn't be created by the instruments on that stage. It was a bummer, even though Billy Gibbons played his ass off.
Not sure if you watched the Beato video, but that's something he mentioned bands programming. They'll run their effects through a computer and they are timed to switch at different times, so it will switch to a lead tone when it's time to solo, and then back to a rhythm tone when the solo ends without the guitarist having to be tied to his pedal board. Not saying that's what Vivian did there of course, just that it's possible to do it without a pedal.
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I'm not a performing musician, so I won't know all the aspects of this, so feel free to help. But take Geoff Tate. He has, unfortunately, a live backing track of his vocals accompanying him. Has for years. If you listen carefully on YouTube you can hear it. But he's still singing and hitting those notes. The guitarists all run through laptops...and (this is where I don't know the technical term), have software that literally gives their instruments the tones of old Queensryche. Rage for Order song - switches to that tone. Empire song? Switches to that tone, etc. They are still playing, but in the tones that Chris and Michael came up with.
The latter is very common now. The former, about the lead vocal track - I don't like it. But it's common now. Current Queensryche has a backing vocal track. It's not the lead vocals, but a lot of the background stuff Tate used for years is now back there, albeit with Todd's voice. Can both Geoff Tate and Queensryche go out and perform a show completely without that technology? Absolutely they can. And probably have, as I am sure tech breakdowns happen often. Most people don't even notice.
That said, they are a traditional band. Some of these "acts" now create music, as those earlier in this thread said, primarily using technology. I am typically not a fan of said acts, but I can understand that without it, there's almost no way to perform. HOWEVER, those kinds of bands need to be even MORE prepared with backups and alternatives, and they certainly need to be rehearsed, unlike Falling in Reverse, apparently.
The bottom line for me, as a listener and consumer is - I paid good money to see a band perform. Unless it is something absolutely catastrophic (bad illness - a cold doesn't count, etc.), you get out there and play. And if you are reliant on tech, make sure multiple backups are prepared and built into your budget.
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I think any band that uses pyros knows when they are being used, and where not to stand.
James Hetfield in 1992 doesn't agree with you :biggrin:
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I think any band that uses pyros knows when they are being used, and where not to stand.
James Hetfield in 1992 doesn't agree with you :biggrin:
Ohhhh sick burn!
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I think any band that uses pyros knows when they are being used, and where not to stand.
James Hetfield in 1992 doesn't agree with you :biggrin:
Ohhhh sick burn!
I didn't see it myself, but it must have been; he had to wear an arm cast for quite some time and have his roadie play many of his parts on guitar.
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I think any band that uses pyros knows when they are being used, and where not to stand.
James Hetfield in 1992 doesn't agree with you :biggrin:
Ohhhh sick burn!
I didn't see it myself, but it must have been; he had to wear an arm cast for quite some time and have his roadie play many of his parts on guitar.
Oh yea. There's video of it happening (obviously nothing graphic) and it's crazy. You hear them about to come in with the main riff to Fade to Black, big fire, no guitar, everyone stops in confusion.
But yea, the Metal Church guy playing guitar for them was a nice move, and I believe they had him come back for their 30th anniversary too.
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There's been plenty of instances of band members getting burned on stage from the pyro. I'm not sure how that all works, but I'd imagine it could easily be programmed into a laptop like the rest of the show. I wonder if there's regulations on this stuff though where maybe someone does need to be manually involved considering the risks.
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I don't know. I think Eddie generally gets a bad rap. I mean, he's certainly earned his cliches, but he has a target audience and he generally delivers. He's a great advocate for 80's hard rock, and when he has guests on, he actually asks the right questions, things that actual fans would want to know, as opposed to general grab ass.
The fact that he has an opinion is fine with me, you know.."a couple of dudes talking music over a beer..."
Since that is his schtick, he should probably just stay in his lane, instead of pontificating about how EVERY musical act should do things.
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I really appreciated Rick Beato's video.
Yup.
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There's been plenty of instances of band members getting burned on stage from the pyro. I'm not sure how that all works, but I'd imagine it could easily be programmed into a laptop like the rest of the show. I wonder if there's regulations on this stuff though where maybe someone does need to be manually involved considering the risks.
Back in 2010, WWE legend, The Undertaker, got hit hard by pyro when he was making his entrance (some crew guy really miscued the timing of setting off pyro). That somehow did not stop him from not breaking the mystique of his character and still wrestled for 16 minutes (what helped him that was it was a match where he didn't need to do anything for 20 minutes before he gets to wrestle and stage crew guys was throwing water bottles to him off camera). Maybe that's why people need to licensed for this kind of stuff (all the guys from Rammstein are licensed pyrotechnicians right?)
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I remember back in the good old days, when rock music was played by real men, you didn't cancel a gig because some computers were stolen. The only valid reasons were, if there were the wrong kind of m&m in your dressing room or if the beer wasn't to your liking.
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I remember back in the good old days, when rock music was played by real men, you didn't cancel a gig because some computers were stolen. The only valid reasons were, if there were the wrong kind of m&m in your dressing room or if the beer wasn't to your liking.
Both valid reasons. Along with cancelling midway through cause someone took your picture.
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I think any band that uses pyros knows when they are being used, and where not to stand.
James Hetfield in 1992 doesn't agree with you :biggrin:
Ohhhh sick burn!
I didn't see it myself, but it must have been; he had to wear an arm cast for quite some time and have his roadie play many of his parts on guitar.
Oh yea. There's video of it happening (obviously nothing graphic) and it's crazy. You hear them about to come in with the main riff to Fade to Black, big fire, no guitar, everyone stops in confusion.
But yea, the Metal Church guy playing guitar for them was a nice move, and I believe they had him come back for their 30th anniversary too.
(To be honest, I initially thought you meant "Ohhh sick burn!" as in "wow, that was a very sharp rebuke!". I thought I was being clever with referencing his actual burn. :loser:)
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My comment was referencing his burn.
I WAS BEING MORE CLEVER! :biggrin:
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Oh yea. There's video of it happening (obviously nothing graphic) and it's crazy. You hear them about to come in with the main riff to Fade to Black, big fire, no guitar, everyone stops in confusion.
But yea, the Metal Church guy playing guitar for them was a nice move, and I believe they had him come back for their 30th anniversary too.
Yep, I remember they included footage of the accident on the Year and a Half in the Life of Metallica VHS...as well as one song (Nothing Else Matters, I think?) with John Marshall on guitar.
And it wasn't even the first time Marshall subbed in for Hetfield :) He had done it a few years prior, when Papa Het broke his wrist (skateboarding?)
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Oh yea. There's video of it happening (obviously nothing graphic) and it's crazy. You hear them about to come in with the main riff to Fade to Black, big fire, no guitar, everyone stops in confusion.
But yea, the Metal Church guy playing guitar for them was a nice move, and I believe they had him come back for their 30th anniversary too.
Yep, I remember they included footage of the accident on the Year and a Half in the Life of Metallica VHS...as well as one song (Nothing Else Matters, I think?) with John Marshall on guitar.
And it wasn't even the first time Marshall subbed in for Hetfield :) He had done it a few years prior, when Papa Het broke his wrist (skateboarding?)
Right. John Marshall played at the show in Foxboro and being a huge Metal Church fan, I thought it was awesome and a real treat to witness.
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Right. John Marshall played at the show in Foxboro and being a huge Metal Church fan, I thought it was awesome and a real treat to witness.
I bet that was neat...always cool to witness "special" shows. And yes, the first two Wayne-fronted albums are classics, of course, but I LOVE the Blessing In Disguise - Human Factor - Hanging in the Balance run so much...the Marshall-Wells guitar duo was great...
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Right. John Marshall played at the show in Foxboro and being a huge Metal Church fan, I thought it was awesome and a real treat to witness.
I bet that was neat...always cool to witness "special" shows. And yes, the first two Wayne-fronted albums are classics, of course, but I LOVE the Blessing In Disguise - Human Factor - Hanging in the Balance run so much...the Marshall-Wells guitar duo was great...
That is my sweet spot right there. I mentioned in my Concert Thread that I saw two shows on the Operation RnR Tour, so I got to see them then. Human Factor tour.
The Human Factor was a go to album when I wanted to sit down behind my drums.
Mike Howe was a crushing loss.
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Honestly, I think the rise of social media and YouTube is a factor in all this as well.
Back in the day, you could have had a bad night and no one would hear it after that night except for anyone listening to a hard-to-find bootleg, but nowadays, anything and everything, except The Astonishing tour, is on YouTube pretty quickly now, so a bad night or bad song or bad moment is immortalized forever and you are suddenly a shit live band or singer because of that one bad moment. Backing tracks can help ensure a more well-rounded sound to make every performance at least manageable to some extent. Not saying it's right, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is a factor. Not as big as the "hey, we have this technology at our fingertips, so let's use it" factor, but simply a factor.
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I remember back in the good old days, when rock music was played by real men, you didn't cancel a gig because some computers were stolen. The only valid reasons were, if there were the wrong kind of m&m in your dressing room or if the beer wasn't to your liking.
I know you were making a joke, but actually given the real reason behind the M&Ms thing, Van Halen were actually right to cancel :D
but nowadays, anything and everything, except The Astonishing tour, is on YouTube pretty quickly now
:rollin
As the title of a Metallica song that might or might have not been played before the fateful Fade to Black incident...... sad but true.
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Honestly, I think the rise of social media and YouTube is a factor in all this as well.
Back in the day, you could have had a bad night and no one would hear it after that night except for anyone listening to a hard-to-find bootleg, but nowadays, anything and everything, except The Astonishing tour, is on YouTube pretty quickly now, so a bad night or bad song or bad moment is immortalized forever and you are suddenly a shit live band or singer because of that one bad moment. Backing tracks can help ensure a more well-rounded sound to make every performance at least manageable to some extent. Not saying it's right, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is a factor. Not as big as the "hey, we have this technology at our fingertips, so let's use it" factor, but simply a factor.
Really good point. Another downside of social media and instant gratification.
Like everything, music is impacted by social media. What started out as a good thing to get more people exposed to music is a double-edged sword.
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Relevant to the topic of click tracks and sampled parts, today on Steve Hogarth’s podcast he and Mark Kelly get into how and why Marillion have used them, and how they are trying out a new program called Ableton on their current tour. The program allows the computer to follow the tempo of the drummer in real time to trigger samples rather than playing them at a set time (which requires the band to play rigidly on time with the click), theoretically allowing the band to get away from strictly following a click track (it sounds like it’s all a bit cutting edge and all the kinks haven’t quite been worked out). The talk about that starts around 10:15 if you’re interested.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-corona-diaries/id1509501056?i=1000584459369
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Relevant to the topic of click tracks and sampled parts, today on Steve Hogarth’s podcast he and Mark Kelly get into how and why Marillion have used them, and how they are trying out a new program called Ableton on their current tour. The program allows the computer to follow the tempo of the drummer in real time to trigger samples rather than playing them at a set time (which requires the band to play rigidly on time with the click), theoretically allowing the band to get away from strictly following a click track (it sounds like it’s all a bit cutting edge and all the kinks haven’t quite been worked out). The talk about that starts around 10:15 if you’re interested.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-corona-diaries/id1509501056?i=1000584459369
Interesting - thanks for sharing. Will have to check it out.
Definitely a step in the right direction, although I still prefer the way that Rush did it in that they still manually triggered the samples so it could be said that they were "playing" them as opposed to basically playing along to a tape or program (which is why I was more willing to give them a pass than most bands/artists that use samples). Will be interesting to see how this program develops and whether enough bands/artists will care (and trust their drummer!) or whether they'll stick to the rigidity of a click because they're used to it and it's easy. My gut feeling is most will go with the easy route.
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Relevant to the topic of click tracks and sampled parts, today on Steve Hogarth’s podcast he and Mark Kelly get into how and why Marillion have used them, and how they are trying out a new program called Ableton on their current tour. The program allows the computer to follow the tempo of the drummer in real time to trigger samples rather than playing them at a set time (which requires the band to play rigidly on time with the click), theoretically allowing the band to get away from strictly following a click track (it sounds like it’s all a bit cutting edge and all the kinks haven’t quite been worked out). The talk about that starts around 10:15 if you’re interested.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-corona-diaries/id1509501056?i=1000584459369
Interesting - thanks for sharing. Will have to check it out.
Definitely a step in the right direction, although I still prefer the way that Rush did it in that they still manually triggered the samples so it could be said that they were "playing" them as opposed to basically playing along to a tape or program (which is why I was more willing to give them a pass than most bands/artists that use samples). Will be interesting to see how this program develops and whether enough bands/artists will care (and trust their drummer!) or whether they'll stick to the rigidity of a click because they're used to it and it's easy. My gut feeling is most will go with the easy route.
The program seems to have some difficulty following Ian Mosely when he's doing more elaborate stuff without a straight rhythm, so I suspect it might take some time for it to be totally workable for more complex prog and metal music.
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The recent news article about Ronnie's band Falling in Reverse caused me to check out their music. And wow, their song "The Drug in Me is Reimagined" is one of the most beautiful songs and videos ever. This would've been all over MTV back in the day. LINK: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B2cbhYihBWY
And, holy shit, their new video for "Let the World Burn" is a total mindfuck. Gotta respect for effort! LINK: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qMXESlny4-I&list=RDqMXESlny4-I&start_radio=1
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I'm fine with backing tracks as long as everybody is still playing live and it's just for extra sound or for things they just can't do live like orchestral tracks.
One of my favorite new bands The Warning is open about their use of backing tracks as a 3 piece. Like when Dany is playing a solo they sometimes have a rhythm guitar track in the background so it doesn't sound like something is missing or when a song has keys in it when someone isn't physically able to play them. However if the laptop goes down they still play even if it may not sound how they want it to sound. For me there is no lamer excuse for cancelling a show than "The laptop is broken sorry guys"
Also a lot of people don't know that it can take some extra skill to play to a track. It's why Mikkey Dee said that drumming for The Scorpions is more of a challenge for him than all the years of playing with Motorhead. They play to a click track because the videos that play on the screens are synced up to the songs.
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Yeah, back in the day, once Queensryche got to Empire, they all played to a click because of the screens. Prior to that, no click. If you have skillful musicians, you can pull it off well.
I love The Warning. And that makes sense and they are open about it. Frankly though, I wish they wouldn't do that. I get it - today, people expect the songs to sound exactly like the record. But for me, I'd just prefer them playing live and not worrying about it. Or bringing along a second guitarist to fill in those spots. Yes, it costs more money. And maybe these days, people (in general) don't care enough to justify the cost of another live musician.
But for my money, I'd prefer it.
I've softened a bit on my stance regarding Falling in Reverse. After hearing Sebastian Bach bitch about it on-air again recently, and getting tired of the rant, here's my bottom line. I get that laptops and running things through them is critical to some acts. Bottom line though, cancelling a show because of it is not okay. They should have budgeted for backups and replacements and had them ready to go. People can make any excuse they want on Falling in Reverse's behalf, but they got caught unprepared, and that's simply not okay.
I do go back on my much earlier comments about them just stripping it down and playing live with different arrangements. Some music you just can't do that, and they are one of them. So I get that. But in that case, the onus is on the performer to make sure they have technology redundancies (aka backups) in place to make sure they can play.