DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: TheCountOfNYC on June 17, 2021, 11:56:05 AM
-
A little backstory: I have been with my girlfriend for two and a half years. She is the love of my life and I plan on marrying her and having a family and future with her someday. I also started a new job back in February and have made a few friends there, all girls around my age.
One of my coworkers told me that she and her boyfriend of six years just broke up. We talked about it for a little bit and I gave her the best advice I could, along the lines of “you guys started dating when you were still a teenager, so use this time to discover who you are as an adult outside of a relationship so you can be the best version of you”. Fast forward to a couple of days later, and she texts me saying that she drank too much and is feeling really down on herself. We start talking about our work schedules and how we wish our schedules lined up more often. She then asks when I’m free to go out for drinks, and me thinking nothing of it, start making plans with her, as in my mind I would be hanging out with a friend. She then starts sending blushing emojis and heart eye emojis and being pretty flirtatious. At this point it’s pretty late so I go to sleep. The next day we’re talking about work again and once again we’re talking about wanting out schedules to line up. She also asks if I’m still on for plans next Thursday, and I say yes. My girlfriend knows about none of this. Only my two best friends know, who I have on standby in case the night takes a weird turn and I need one of them to come and interject into the situation/get me out of there.
Should I feel guilty about this? I absolutely will NOT cheat on my girlfriend, as I’m head over heels in love with her and cheating goes against everything I stand for as a person and for me would be the equivalent of a character suicide. As far as I’m concerned I’m hanging out with a friend, but I’m holding off on telling my girlfriend because even without my friend from work being a little flirty, my girlfriend is a bit insecure and telling her that I have plans with a friend who is a single girl around our age will set her off. I want to hang out with my friend, because even if she makes a move, I won’t reciprocate, and IF she makes a move, I would absolutely tell my girlfriend about that. Still, this is a situation I’ve never dealt with before, and I have no idea if I’m handling things correctly.
-
From the outsider's view, I would say that you're already cheating in the emotional/spiritual sense. And I'd imagine we've all been there, even those of us in loving marriages. So, no, you're not a bad person. What's happening to you is very human, and normal. Here you may realize that you have not yet crossed the line that society generally deems, for the most part, to be the "point of no return," i.e., physical intimacy. You still have a chance to turn things around before it gets there.
If you love your girlfriend you need to stop with the games which you know in your heart you are playing and take steps to reverse this situation with the other girl now. Or don't. You aren't a bad person, either way. You need to be honest with yourself about what you really want, though. The situation will progress whether you take action to control the directional arc or not.
-
I would say that that fact that you're asking the question in the first place should give you your answer.
Are you a bad person? No...not yet. I'd avoid this like the plague if your GF is that important to you.
-
Not a bad person. But you're being super shady right now and you're prioritizing a friendship with this girl from work over the relationship you're supposed to be having with your life partner. You're going into this hang out knowing 110% well that she's hoping to see your penis. Even if you're not going to cheat, you're playing games with her.
You should post this on r/AmItheAsshole on Reddit. I'd be curious to see what they say.
-
I mostly agree with what was said above. But I'll just add this: As far as going out for drinks, you point out that you would never cheat on your girlfriend. I don't doubt that you mean that. But plenty who have really meant it did something they regret where they went into a situation like what you are describing, and the lines got blurred, and before you know it, you have crossed them. Why put yourself in a situation where something could go wrong? Right now, you are friends. But there has been flirting, and you will be in a social situation where one thing can lead to another. And you are introducing alcohol into the equation, which increases the likelihood of letting down your guard. In my humble assessment of the situation, you are playing with fire. Yeah, if you are as committed as you believe you are, it is unlikely that it will go too far. But you are willingly putting yourself in a situation where the likelihood is far higher than if you didn't. Wouldn't it say more about your commitment to your girlfriend if you instead made the choice to, figuratively speaking, build a wall around that relationship with her and protecting it by actively avoiding situations that could either physically go wrong or could at least create the appearance of something that could play to her insecurities and hurt her?
-
The fact that you think she may be into you and then you are going through with it without telling your gf is very danger zone IMO. Also, this being someone you work with means things will get super awkward if she does make a move (whether you reject or not). Best to not get involved OR tell your gf OR make it a group hang out. What your current plan is, to me, is setting up for disaster in every direction, I don't see any positive outcomes.
-
I have to agree with everyone. It doesn't make you a bad person, but you're playing with fire for sure.
-
I think the key line in your OP is "My girlfriend knows about none of this."
If you were honest with yourself and you love the girl you want to marry would you hide this from her? What I would do is tell her the situation. Tell the other girl I'd like to bring my girlfriend with us. There is shows you care about the one you love while care in a different way with a friend. But if your hiding it from her, you are lying to yourself.
-
I would say that that fact that you're asking the question in the first place should give you your answer.
Are you a bad person? No...not yet. I'd avoid this like the plague if your GF is that important to you.
Yep, pretty much this. The fact that it concerns you let's you off the "bad person" hook, but you are being a little naive and really need to rethink this whole thing.
And now for something completely different:
but I’m holding off on telling my girlfriend because. . . telling her that I have plans with a friend who is a single girl around our age will set her off.
Honestly, this is another red flag from my point of view. There is a case to be made that you should be able to hang out with a coworker who's in a bad place, and yet that's not something you're comfortable doing because of your GF's insecurity. Cram suggested making it a group hang, and that was my first thought, as well. Personally, I'd want to include the GF, and if that's not possible then you may well have trouble on two fronts.
-
I mostly agree with what was said above. But I'll just add this: As far as going out for drinks, you point out that you would never cheat on your girlfriend. I don't doubt that you mean that. But plenty who have really meant it did something they regret where they went into a situation like what you are describing, and the lines got blurred, and before you know it, you have crossed them. Why put yourself in a situation where something could go wrong? Right now, you are friends. But there has been flirting, and you will be in a social situation where one thing can lead to another. And you are introducing alcohol into the equation, which increases the likelihood of letting down your guard. In my humble assessment of the situation, you are playing with fire. Yeah, if you are as committed as you believe you are, it is unlikely that it will go too far. But you are willingly putting yourself in a situation where the likelihood is far higher than if you didn't. Wouldn't it say more about your commitment to your girlfriend if you instead made the choice to, figuratively speaking, build a wall around that relationship with her and protecting it by actively avoiding situations that could either physically go wrong or could at least create the appearance of something that could play to her insecurities and hurt her?
My thoughts exactly.
Like everyone has said....you're not a 'bad person' but on some level you realize that you're setting yourself up to fail here. Even if you don't physically do anything with her WHEN your GF finds out you spent an evening with a girl co-worker it's not going to end well for you, trust me. You two aren't married and while you may be head over heels in love with one another this whole scenario has disaster written all over it.
I think the key line in your OP is "My girlfriend knows about none of this."
I think you know that if you were to mention this to your GF she'd get upset about it....and rightfully so.
-
When my wife and I first met and were dating she soon discovered that I had/have three really close friends that are women. We hung out many times so she could get to know them as well so that when I'd say "I'm meeting Katie for drinks" she didn't have to worry that I was going to sleep with her or something. And, by introducing them I didn't need to 'sneak' around to be able to hang out with my women friends.
Try the honest approach here if you're really just wanting to be there for that girl as a friend. There's nothing wrong with that. But to me....and the way I read your post....this clandestine nature of the whole things leaves too many chances for stuff to go sideways.
-
This is what you do.
Step 1: Go to girlfriend and say, "Hey, this (lady) friend from work invited me out for drinks, and I accepted without thinking it was weird. I have since come to the conclusion that it MIGHT be weird, and MAYBE this girl has a different idea that I do (which is going out as friends). With all this uncertainty, I've decided I'm not comfortable with going out with her, so I intend to cancel. I wanted to let you know."
Step 2: Cancel with the friend. Wash your hands of that relationship.
It doesn't really matter what your gf says about it (oh, don't worry about it, etc.) It's your decision and it's made.
If you continue down this road you are on, it will get much messier and your life will take a turn.
***the above assumes you want to stay with your gf***
If you don't (which is a totally fine feeling), do what you want, just be honest about it TO EVERYONE. As long as you're honest, you'll be able to live with yourself. You don't need anyone telling you you're a good person. The only one that that really matters to is you. If you can live with yourself, you're good.
NOTE: I've been in this situation many times in my life. I've gone down both paths. I really couldn't tell you what the best course of action was for me at the end of the day, and I REALLY couldn't say what the best course is for you. But if what you say is true (that your gf is the one you want for the rest of your life), then do what I said in the first place, and I think you'll be alright.
-
Every single comment above is spot on. Completely on point. The only thing I have to add is on top of what Skeever led with ... that you're already 'emotionally/spiritually' cheating. I don't necessarily agree, but I'll 100% guarantee that your gf will think you are - just from the fact you're hiding it from her ... even though you believe you have good reasons to. Trust me nothing good is going to come of this. Even if it's the exact same kind of hang-out you'd do with someone who's got two chromosomes, you hiding this from your gf will automatically and assuredly have her thinking "what else is he hiding".
I was in a very similar situation a number of years back - formed a close friendship with a female. mrs.jingle knew all about it, but ultimately she felt things were crossing some kind of line. I wasn't doing anything I wouldn't have done with any ofmy guy buddies ... but that didn't matter - to mrs.jingle she thought it was getting a little too cozy. So, I ended the friendship. Full-stop.
You're not a bad person at all. But I don't see any outcome out of this that isn't bad.
-
Every single comment above is spot on. Completely on point. The only thing I have to add is on top of what Skeever led with ... that you're already 'emotionally/spiritually' cheating. I don't necessarily agree, but I'll 100% guarantee that your gf will think you are - just from the fact you're hiding it from her ... even though you believe you have good reasons to.
What Jingle said in bold. The mere fact that you can't tell your girlfriend is already problematic. I've had and still have friend-girls that to this day I go to lunch with and I always tell my wife.
However, you do need to ask yourself if you're really ready to settle down or do you really want to explore what it could be like with other women. Either way - be honest with yourself and with others.....
-
I think I’m gonna try to make it a group hang. Part of me thinks there flirting was because she was drinking, and even if I was single, this girl being drunk and hurt from her breakup would keep me away anyway. If I can have a few other friends around as a bit of a buffer while she sorts herself out that would be great, and I think my girlfriend would be a lot more comfortable with a group hangout, because at the end of the day, I do have to keep her in mind when making decisions.
-
I think I’m gonna try to make it a group hang. Part of me thinks there flirting was because she was drinking, and even if I was single, this girl being drunk and hurt from her breakup would keep me away anyway. If I can have a few other friends around as a bit of a buffer while she sorts herself out that would be great, and I think my girlfriend would be a lot more comfortable with a group hangout, because at the end of the day, I do have to keep her in mind when making decisions.
make it a group hang AND have your GF there.
-
Even if you do the group hang out, you should let your GF know. What Jingle said is spot on, and others have said as well, about just hiding this alone is going to make problems creep up in your relationship. Putting any sort of crack into your trust is going to lead to issues.
On another note, does this female know you are in a serious relationsshpi?
-
If you are going to marry this person you two are going to need to figure out how to share things with each other, and that you both are going to have some semblance of lives on our own outside your marriage. I wouldn't want you too figure out down the road you were not able to do something most people would consider reasonable (such as have female friends) because it would set her off.
-
I would say that that fact that you're asking the question in the first place should give you your answer.
Are you a bad person? No...not yet. I'd avoid this like the plague if your GF is that important to you.
Yep, pretty much this. The fact that it concerns you let's you off the "bad person" hook, but you are being a little naive and really need to rethink this whole thing.
And now for something completely different:
but I’m holding off on telling my girlfriend because. . . telling her that I have plans with a friend who is a single girl around our age will set her off.
Honestly, this is another red flag from my point of view. There is a case to be made that you should be able to hang out with a coworker who's in a bad place, and yet that's not something you're comfortable doing because of your GF's insecurity. Cram suggested making it a group hang, and that was my first thought, as well. Personally, I'd want to include the GF, and if that's not possible then you may well have trouble on two fronts.
This is where I was sort of leaning. You clearly seem to have your standards for what is "cheating" and what isn't, but you don't seem to be accounting for your GIRLFRIENDS standards, whatever they are, right wrong or indifferent. I've learned long ago that if I'm in a committed relationship with someone that trusts me, MY standards don't mean a whole lot if in the process I'm hurting my partner.
-
I was in a very similar situation a number of years back - formed a close friendship with a female. mrs.jingle knew all about it, but ultimately she felt things were crossing some kind of line. I wasn't doing anything I wouldn't have done with any ofmy guy buddies ... but that didn't matter - to mrs.jingle she thought it was getting a little too cozy. So, I ended the friendship. Full-stop.
There's a tasteless joke in there somewhere. :)
-
Even if you do the group hang out, you should let your GF know. What Jingle said is spot on, and others have said as well, about just hiding this alone is going to make problems creep up in your relationship. Putting any sort of crack into your trust is going to lead to issues.
On another note, does this female know you are in a serious relationsshpi?
She does. I always talk about my girlfriend in casual conversation because 1) talking about her makes me happy and 2) I try to make sure people know I’m taken, regardless of gender/sexual orientation.
-
If I need another thread, so be it, though it's tangentially relevant here: for the guys that have "close" female friends, be honest: purely platonic, even in your head? Never once ever thought about the possibilities?
Maybe it's me, maybe it's my character, but while I have several female friends, and have no real problem with actual fidelity, I can't honestly say that I've had that many close female friends and didn't at least once think about where things could go. (Key word is close; it's not as if I'm lusting after every one of my friends' wives; that's not it at all. I mean women with whom I've had a direct relationship independent of my friend group).
-
All the comments above are spot on.
I would do what jingle said and cancel the meeting, if you haven’t tell that girl you have a girlfriend you should do that immediately.
I would say something like: hey, about that meeting we were planning I talked with gf about it, and she is not comfortable with that happening, I love her, and even tho nothing is going to happen between the both of us, I don’t want to make her uncomfortable, so the best for all of us is to cancel the meeting, we can still be friends but we can’t meet alone.
Be honest with your gf, at the end she’s gonna be the one beside you for the rest of your life.
-
If I need another thread, so be it, though it's tangentially relevant here: for the guys that have "close" female friends, be honest: purely platonic, even in your head? Never once ever thought about the possibilities?
Maybe it's me, maybe it's my character, but while I have several female friends, and have no real problem with actual fidelity, I can't honestly say that I've had that many close female friends and didn't at least once think about where things could go. (Key word is close; it's not as if I'm lusting after every one of my friends' wives; that's not it at all. I mean women with whom I've had a direct relationship independent of my friend group).
I have very few female friends. Some of that stems from my long term relationship in the past where my x was very insecure so me even talking to a female would trigger her. Since then, I can only really say I have one close female friend that I'd have no problem hanging out with solo. And I never really considered anything more with her. However, I threw a party many years ago (after my past relationship) and she came to it, we all got really drunk and she asked to spend the night so I offered her to come sleep in my bed. In the drunken state I was in, I for once actually considered making a move while we slept together in bed (literally slept) but I did not make a move and I think that was a great decision. Likely would have made our friendship awkward and she's also a family friend. My brother who lived with me at the time told my mom she slept in my bed that night and my mom called me the next day saying "you better not have had sex with her! That will make things very bad with our families!" :lol
-
If I need another thread, so be it, though it's tangentially relevant here: for the guys that have "close" female friends, be honest: purely platonic, even in your head? Never once ever thought about the possibilities?
Maybe it's me, maybe it's my character, but while I have several female friends, and have no real problem with actual fidelity, I can't honestly say that I've had that many close female friends and didn't at least once think about where things could go. (Key word is close; it's not as if I'm lusting after every one of my friends' wives; that's not it at all. I mean women with whom I've had a direct relationship independent of my friend group).
Literally every single one for me, and my coworkers, and many others.
I'm a guy. Sue me.
-
I think I’m gonna try to make it a group hang. Part of me thinks there flirting was because she was drinking, and even if I was single, this girl being drunk and hurt from her breakup would keep me away anyway. If I can have a few other friends around as a bit of a buffer while she sorts herself out that would be great, and I think my girlfriend would be a lot more comfortable with a group hangout, because at the end of the day, I do have to keep her in mind when making decisions.
make it a group hang AND have your GF there.
This is where I was leaning as well. Be up front 100% with your gf about what has transpired, you can even blame any problems on your own stupidity/naivete, but keeping this hidden is basically hiding a time bomb from her, and the explosion will be worse the longer you wait. Lead with 'a coworker was having problems and reached out to me... And this transpired from there'.
You're not a bad person btw... Just growing and learning.
-
If I need another thread, so be it, though it's tangentially relevant here: for the guys that have "close" female friends, be honest: purely platonic, even in your head? Never once ever thought about the possibilities?
Maybe it's me, maybe it's my character, but while I have several female friends, and have no real problem with actual fidelity, I can't honestly say that I've had that many close female friends and didn't at least once think about where things could go. (Key word is close; it's not as if I'm lusting after every one of my friends' wives; that's not it at all. I mean women with whom I've had a direct relationship independent of my friend group).
Literally every single one for me, and my coworkers, and many others.
I'm a guy. Sue me.
Haha, represent you! :)
-
I had a friend that is drop dead gorgeous. My mom even asked me why Didn't I date her. I saw her too much as a friend. Sure I'm a dude but I just wouldn't cross that line. My wife loves her. we hung out for the first time before the pandemic with another old friend and her sister. We had a blast in Portsmouth, N.H. But still, it was a group thing.
Edit: Lonestar. Love your last sentence.
-
Edit: Lonestar. Love your last sentence.
Yeah.. After I typed the rest, I feel that needed to be poi ted out.
Relatable experience... Two of my closest friends ate women, and both are stunning. When I started dating my last gf, I could smell the jealousy on her right away. I had to be 100% honest with her how much these ladies were a part of my life, and that any relationship with me would involve them in some way or another. The new gf grudgingly accepted it, and eventually grew to love them as much as I do. Point being, with all out honesty, you save so many problems.
-
Two of my closest friends ate women
:biggrin:
-
AM I a bad person?
Wrong question. Most people who do bad things aren't bad persons, and you likely aren't either.
But proceeding with this course of action without telling your girlfriend would be a bad thing to do.
-
Two of my closest friends ate women
:biggrin:
Oops :lol
One of them is bi so....
-
If I need another thread, so be it, though it's tangentially relevant here: for the guys that have "close" female friends, be honest: purely platonic, even in your head? Never once ever thought about the possibilities?
Maybe it's me, maybe it's my character, but while I have several female friends, and have no real problem with actual fidelity, I can't honestly say that I've had that many close female friends and didn't at least once think about where things could go. (Key word is close; it's not as if I'm lusting after every one of my friends' wives; that's not it at all. I mean women with whom I've had a direct relationship independent of my friend group).
Two of the three I spoke about I've had a relationship with in the past. In both instances the 'intimate' relationship was due to how close we were as friends......we took it to the next level and discovered that the friendship was better.....so we ended it and that was that. And oddly enough, it was never awkward afterwards in either instance. It was just back to being friends.
-
Two of my closest friends ate women
:biggrin:
Oops :lol
One of them is bi so....
Giggity.
-
Mmmm, the "whether I'm cheating on my girlfriend"-question isn't the most interesting part of this conversation, because you aren't (though I would advise you to try and make sure you can openly have a female friend and make plans with her without your GF seeing it as some sort of red flag). This girl knows you have a GF, and is still, uh, openly thirsting for you and flirting. She may already think you accepted the flirtation but even if she figures out you were just oblivious, things might get really awkward at work with her. I would advise you to unalign those schedules if they do align, just in case, so you guys don't have to look at each other and go "uhm. so." every couple of minutes.
-
I think the vernacular is "don't dip your pen in company ink", or, more crudely, "don't shit where you eat." Sound advice that one.
-
A little backstory: I have been with my girlfriend for two and a half years. She is the love of my life and I plan on marrying her and having a family and future with her someday. I also started a new job back in February and have made a few friends there, all girls around my age.
One of my coworkers told me that she and her boyfriend of six years just broke up. We talked about it for a little bit and I gave her the best advice I could, along the lines of “you guys started dating when you were still a teenager, so use this time to discover who you are as an adult outside of a relationship so you can be the best version of you”. Fast forward to a couple of days later, and she texts me saying that she drank too much and is feeling really down on herself. We start talking about our work schedules and how we wish our schedules lined up more often. She then asks when I’m free to go out for drinks, and me thinking nothing of it, start making plans with her, as in my mind I would be hanging out with a friend. She then starts sending blushing emojis and heart eye emojis and being pretty flirtatious. At this point it’s pretty late so I go to sleep. The next day we’re talking about work again and once again we’re talking about wanting out schedules to line up. She also asks if I’m still on for plans next Thursday, and I say yes. My girlfriend knows about none of this. Only my two best friends know, who I have on standby in case the night takes a weird turn and I need one of them to come and interject into the situation/get me out of there.
Should I feel guilty about this? I absolutely will NOT cheat on my girlfriend, as I’m head over heels in love with her and cheating goes against everything I stand for as a person and for me would be the equivalent of a character suicide. As far as I’m concerned I’m hanging out with a friend, but I’m holding off on telling my girlfriend because even without my friend from work being a little flirty, my girlfriend is a bit insecure and telling her that I have plans with a friend who is a single girl around our age will set her off. I want to hang out with my friend, because even if she makes a move, I won’t reciprocate, and IF she makes a move, I would absolutely tell my girlfriend about that. Still, this is a situation I’ve never dealt with before, and I have no idea if I’m handling things correctly.
Jesus, there is so much wrong here it's not funny.
1. You are posting here asking the question = red flag.
2. You can't tell your girlfriend = red flag.
3. Wake up to yourself, she is looking for a rebound guy = red flag, gonna end badly.
4. Of course your girlfriend will get upset if you tell her you are having drinks with a single girl around the same age. Do you blame her? If my misses said that to me about going for drinks with a single guy her age just as 'friends', I'd have the same response. I would ask why she would even need to do that. I get friends and all, but this seems quite different.
5. I find it troubling you say you love your misses and want to marry her but are happy to go for drinks with a chick that just broke up with her boyfriend and sends you lovey dovey messages? You are expecting her to make a move so why would you put yourself in that situation? You should have stopped it right there at the messages and not agreed to meet up.
You're not a bad person, but there are a lot of alarm bells here that should make you a little worried.
-
I was in a very similar situation a number of years back - formed a close friendship with a female. mrs.jingle knew all about it, but ultimately she felt things were crossing some kind of line. I wasn't doing anything I wouldn't have done with any of my guy buddies ...
:neverusethis:
No wonder she was uncomfortable. ;D
-
In Chinese there's a word "ai mei" 暧昧 which means something like "ambiguous relationship" but almost always applies to men and women who are in some kind of relationship or affair that has just not been acknowledged yet. If you were to tell your buddies about this they would all immediately recognize this as "ai mei" and know exactly where it was going and what the stakes were. But in English these situations seem less articulated.
-
I was in a very similar situation a number of years back - formed a close friendship with a female. mrs.jingle knew all about it, but ultimately she felt things were crossing some kind of line. I wasn't doing anything I wouldn't have done with any of my guy buddies ...
:neverusethis:
No wonder she was uncomfortable. ;D
:rollin
-
Just ask yourself, how would you feel if that was happening to your girlfriend instead?
-
Yes.
-
I was in a very similar situation a number of years back - formed a close friendship with a female. mrs.jingle knew all about it, but ultimately she felt things were crossing some kind of line. I wasn't doing anything I wouldn't have done with any ofmy guy buddies ... but that didn't matter - to mrs.jingle she thought it was getting a little too cozy. So, I ended the friendship. Full-stop.
There's a tasteless joke in there somewhere. :)
I was in a very similar situation a number of years back - formed a close friendship with a female. mrs.jingle knew all about it, but ultimately she felt things were crossing some kind of line. I wasn't doing anything I wouldn't have done with any of my guy buddies ...
:neverusethis:
No wonder she was uncomfortable. ;D
Ima gonna nickname you two Beavis and Butthead. Who wants to be which?
-
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/bd/b2/4cbdb2a05eecc94162c3de5613c814e2.gif)
-
Don’t do it.
I don’t at all agree with the idea that as a man you wouldn’t be allowed to do something nice with a female friend (same thing the other way round), but this particular situation is bad. I can tell you from first-hand experience.
-
Fast forward to a couple of days later, and she texts me saying that she drank too much and is feeling really down on herself.
This right here, should be a big warning sign. She is likely drinking to cope with the feeling of loneliness from her breakup. Especially considering it's one that rooted from a young teen relationship. At this point, for your own relationship, you should tell her to come to you when she isn't drinking, and to talk when there is no alcohol involved and she can be in her right mind. If she is inviting you for drinks, that's straight up innuendo for, my feelings are all over the place and my inhibitions are running wild, and I may end up doing anything.
I know this because that reminds me of some girls I actually know. Most of whom went out for drinks with a friend they knew. All ended the same with them leaving together, as both lost their inhibitions as the alcohol took over. I actually went out with some of them alone, as that ear, and have had some of them begin to hit on me, I am single so it didn't matter to me if I did anything, but I am also bi, so I didn't do anything. Later the next day, they were glad nothing happened because they recollected and came to understand that they drank and acted out because of their break-up and just needed that moment to be free and vent out.
She's still young too, and this is something she has to deal with on her own. You can be that ear, but don't let her get too close to where you can feel the breathe of her whisper.
-
I think I’m gonna try to make it a group hang. Part of me thinks there flirting was because she was drinking, and even if I was single, this girl being drunk and hurt from her breakup would keep me away anyway. If I can have a few other friends around as a bit of a buffer while she sorts herself out that would be great, and I think my girlfriend would be a lot more comfortable with a group hangout, because at the end of the day, I do have to keep her in mind when making decisions.
If you have more guy friends there, it will make a big difference for your GF being there. As it means, your coworker can focus on the other guys rather than you...
Unless, you are more handsome than your friends. :justjen
-
4. Of course your girlfriend will get upset if you tell her you are having drinks with a single girl around the same age. Do you blame her? If my misses said that to me about going for drinks with a single guy her age just as 'friends', I'd have the same response. I would ask why she would even need to do that. I get friends and all, but this seems quite different.
I found this very interesting. Are people that are in relationships only supposed to be friends with people that are not single? Is this the criteria by which to choose your friends once you have someone in your life?
-
4. Of course your girlfriend will get upset if you tell her you are having drinks with a single girl around the same age. Do you blame her? If my misses said that to me about going for drinks with a single guy her age just as 'friends', I'd have the same response. I would ask why she would even need to do that. I get friends and all, but this seems quite different.
I found this very interesting. Are people that are in relationships only supposed to be friends with people that are not single? Is this the criteria by which to choose your friends once you have someone in your life?
No. Not at all but the issue is about honesty and being truthful to the one you love. Not telling his girlfriend is the issue.
Add that if you flipped it around would you be ok with the same situation? I think not.
-
Yes.
QFT
-
4. Of course your girlfriend will get upset if you tell her you are having drinks with a single girl around the same age. Do you blame her? If my misses said that to me about going for drinks with a single guy her age just as 'friends', I'd have the same response. I would ask why she would even need to do that. I get friends and all, but this seems quite different.
I found this very interesting. Are people that are in relationships only supposed to be friends with people that are not single? Is this the criteria by which to choose your friends once you have someone in your life?
I knew this point would get picked up and get this very response.
While no, it's not a criteria you have to live by if you are in a relationship. I guess everyone is different and some couples may have no issue but me personally, I would just find it weird if my misses went for a drink with a single guy. Saying that, if it was someone they knew well before I came along, that I think is a slightly different story.
The main issue is the honesty. As King said, keeping it a secret is the true underlying issue.
-
There's a lot that has been said already and I don't know if I'm adding anything new, but here's my point of view.
I generally agree that there is nothing wring with you having female friends who are single. As Stads said, you can have a purely platonic relationship. I know that's the case for me. In this case however, you know this other girl is looking for a rebound guy and has been flirting with you. The fact that you don't intend to do anything with her does not take away from the fact that she does have some other intention and there are two distinct scenarios that can happen:
1. She starts flirting, you stay true to your intention of not cheating and the situation becomes awkward enough that your friendship ends up being ruined
2. She starts flirting, you can't resist the temptation and you end up cheating on your girlfriend which will clearly end up affecting you.
I'd follow the advise given above. Either cancel the meeting and tell her that you're not comfortable with the situation because you have a GF or make sure there's other people there, single males preferably who can take the bullet for you ;)
As far as being a bad person, I'll quote Lonestar because he is a wise man
You're not a bad person btw... Just growing and learning.
-
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/bd/b2/4cbdb2a05eecc94162c3de5613c814e2.gif)
Fartknocker. Uh-huh-huh-huh-huh-huh.
-
4. Of course your girlfriend will get upset if you tell her you are having drinks with a single girl around the same age. Do you blame her? If my misses said that to me about going for drinks with a single guy her age just as 'friends', I'd have the same response. I would ask why she would even need to do that. I get friends and all, but this seems quite different.
I found this very interesting. Are people that are in relationships only supposed to be friends with people that are not single? Is this the criteria by which to choose your friends once you have someone in your life?
I knew this point would get picked up and get this very response.
While no, it's not a criteria you have to live by if you are in a relationship. I guess everyone is different and some couples may have no issue but me personally, I would just find it weird if my misses went for a drink with a single guy. Saying that, if it was someone they knew well before I came along, that I think is a slightly different story.
The main issue is the honesty. As King said, keeping it a secret is the true underlying issue.
I think I answered this too, and it all boils back to honesty: with yourself and with your partner. It's not YOUR standard you have to worry about, it's your partner's, and if you don't like your partner's standard you have two choices: deal with it and honor it, or tell him/her to pound sand. With my ex-wife, all that Count wrote would be verboten. I would have had a shit-storm had it come to light (even if I told her in advance; I had two female friends from the Genesis forum with whom I traded tapes - never met them IRL - and to this day my ex calls me a "cheater". For more or less trading Genesis live shows. That's in part why she's my ex.) My current wife would tolerate it, but I know inside she would be insecure and not thrilled. I act accordingly. The few times I do go out with females, I'm very clear about it, and upfront. And as I'm typing, I'm thinking that I've never actually gone out one-on-one with a female - single or otherwise - while in my current marriage, and I probably won't. It's not worth it to me to cast that doubt.
-
I am not sure what my definition of a bad person would be, but I don't think this makes you a bad person perse. However, this is, in my view, is a bad action without a doubt. Even in absence of physical cheating. You really have to ask yourself why you are going on what is obviously a rebound date for that woman. And the fact that you don't tell your girlfriend already shows you know it is a bad action, at least in her view. But I don't think anyone would be comfortable with their significant other going on secret dates with someone that is flirting with them, rightfully so I'd say.
-
I think the two issues, from my POV are 1) the secrecy and 2) her expectations.
I wouldn’t have any issues with anyone in a couple hanging out with someone from the attracted sex. If your partner doesn’t trust you or vice versa, that’s an issue to work out, not placate. Always be honest and make sure you’re clear, crystal clear, with the boundaries with new lady.
My two best friends are girls and my girlfriend doesn’t care anymore. She did at the beginning when there were some insecurities but we have trust. If she wanted to hang out with guys, that’s fine. I trust her completely. If she finds someone better than me, that would suck but i wouldn’t want her staying with me simply because I’m keeping her away from something better.
-
And to add Adami that is a natural instinct, jealousy. It's managing that feeling and trusting your partner. The 1st step if trusting is being honest. Telling your significant other of the situation.
-
I think the two issues, from my POV are 1) the secrecy and 2) her expectations.
I wouldn’t have any issues with anyone in a couple hanging out with someone from the attracted sex. If your partner doesn’t trust you or vice versa, that’s an issue to work out, not placate. Always be honest and make sure you’re clear, crystal clear, with the boundaries with new lady.
My two best friends are girls and my girlfriend doesn’t care anymore. She did at the beginning when there were some insecurities but we have trust. If she wanted to hang out with guys, that’s fine. I trust her completely. If she finds someone better than me, that would suck but i wouldn’t want her staying with me simply because I’m keeping her away from something better.
That last sentence is a delicate one. I feel that way as well. It's not easy, but it's how i resolve some conflicts in my personality. But after a point, that isn't absolute. Maybe it's different for me, because I'm married and there are kids involved, but it's not as simple as "eh, I think so-and-so is better, I'm going to give that a flier!" That can happen when dating, because worst case scenario, you can always get back together. For me, if my wife now said "I think I'm better with Mark", I don't know that there's coming back from that.
-
She’s better with a one that doesn’t have Genesis bootlegs.
-
She’s better with a one that doesn’t have Genesis bootlegs.
I keep telling her that! :)
-
Mmmm, the "whether I'm cheating on my girlfriend"-question isn't the most interesting part of this conversation, because you aren't (though I would advise you to try and make sure you can openly have a female friend and make plans with her without your GF seeing it as some sort of red flag). This girl knows you have a GF, and is still, uh, openly thirsting for you and flirting. She may already think you accepted the flirtation but even if she figures out you were just oblivious, things might get really awkward at work with her. I would advise you to unalign those schedules if they do align, just in case, so you guys don't have to look at each other and go "uhm. so." every couple of minutes.
My wife and I determined that a long time ago that anything you can't divulge to your significant other, is a form of cheating. The only form of cheating or lying that is acceptable between a couple is when they ask - "Do these jeans make my ass look fat"? The only acceptable answer is NO and that's not lying, that's self preservation! :biggrin:
-
My wife and I determined that a long time ago that anything you can't divulge to your significant other, is a form of cheating. The only form of cheating or lying that is acceptable between a couple is when they ask - "Do these jeans make my ass look fat"? The only acceptable answer is NO and that's not lying, that's self preservation! :biggrin:
Well there are some other answers that are acceptable, but I'll assure everyone of this, "Where?" is definitely NOT an acceptable response.
-
My wife and I determined that a long time ago that anything you can't divulge to your significant other, is a form of cheating. The only form of cheating or lying that is acceptable between a couple is when they ask - "Do these jeans make my ass look fat"? The only acceptable answer is NO and that's not lying, that's self preservation! :biggrin:
Well there are some other answers that are acceptable, but I'll assure everyone of this, "Where?" is definitely NOT an acceptable response.
That's just asking for trouble :lol
-
We've all had that landmine right there in front of us. It's like women want to talk us onto the pressure trigger. :lol
-
Interesting thread/discussion. To the OP, I think the fact you are asking if you are a bad person - for the record, I don't see "bad person" but I do see "human" - means you are struggling internally with making the right decision and just the fact that you are struggling means you already have your answer. Frankly, I'd be more worried if you understood the dilemma and thought, "Fuck it, I'm going to do what I want."
hunnus2000 brings up an interesting thing. "Anything you can't divulge to your SO is a form of cheating."
I want to take this out of context and explore this a bit further. I get you, hunnus, were setting up the joke about your SO's ass, so this isn't directed at you at all. But I know people who believe that sentence above 100%....meaning they share EVERYTHING and leave out NOTHING. I think in my younger days I may have...when dating and romance and relationships were new and exhilarating and thinking about the long haul of what it means to be a lifetime partner. But with the hindsight of aging, I just don't think it holds up. And maybe this comes down more on an individual style and how we relate to others but frankly, I don't WANT to know EVERYTHING. Important stuff - yes. But EVERYTHING? No.
Do I want to know my spouse finds his coworkers breasts distracting? No. If he acts on that thought or thinks he might, yes.
Do I want to know if my spouse lost his cool with his brother about a mulligan on the golf course and they aren't speaking? No. If he's struggling with how to mend fences and wants some advice or some support? Yes
Do I want to know if my spouse cleaned up a stain on our new carpet because my son dropped a cherry and left it there overnight and he wanted to prevent a meltdown (on my part)? No. If I see it anyway and want to know how the hell it happened and ask a direct question? Yes.
And there are plenty of things I keep from my spouse. Not earth-shattering things - not relationship breaker things. But many things that he a) probably doesn't really give a shit about or b) would only add to the jumble of things he's already dealing with and aren't really important to him.
So for those of you in longer term relationships, how do you feel about sharing everything? Have you and your SO had conversations about this?
I know at one point around finances me and my spouse had talked about it being fine to spend on whatever but anything over $500 had to be discussed ahead of time. We have always been pretty good about talking about money though, so we have trust there. But I know for a lot of couples money is a hot button issue. Sex is too. If one of you has a higher or lower sex drive are you sharing all of that - EVERYTHING - with your SO or are you just dropping hints and/or avoiding conversations around it?
[Edit to add] The correct response to the question, "Do these pants make my ass look big?" is ALWAYS "Oh hun, I love your ass in anything, you know that." ;)
-
We've all had that landmine right there in front of us. It's like women want to talk us onto the pressure trigger. :lol
My default answer is "That looks good on you", no matter what the question is. Unless I think the piece of clothing itself is ugly in which case I'll say so.
-
I always tell The Lovely Mrs TAC that the next time we're out, I'll show you a fat ass.
So usually when we are out, and we're behind someone with a huge ass, I'll get my wife's attention and glance down at the fat ass, and give my wife the look.
-
I’m at the point in my marriage where if we’re walking down the street together and I spot a looker, I’ll give my wife’s hand a squeeze and say out loud, “Wow. THAT’S a good-looking woman.” And she’ll either nod in agreement or scoff at my poor taste.
-
I’m at the point in my marriage where if we’re walking down the street together and I spot a looker, I’ll give my wife’s hand a squeeze and say out loud, “Wow. THAT’S a good-looking woman.” And she’ll either nod in agreement or scoff at my poor taste.
I'm at a point in my marriage where that would not be a wise thing to say. Not ever. :lol
-
I’m at the point in my marriage where if we’re walking down the street together and I spot a looker, I’ll give my wife’s hand a squeeze and say out loud, “Wow. THAT’S a good-looking woman.” And she’ll either nod in agreement or scoff at my poor taste.
I'm at a point in my marriage where that would not be a wise thing to say. Not ever. :lol
:lol yeah I guess I AM a bad person.
-
I always tell The Lovely Mrs TAC that the next time we're out, I'll show you a fat ass.
So usually when we are out, and we're behind someone with a huge ass, I'll get my wife's attention and glance down at the fat ass, and give my wife the look.
DUDE! Have we talked about this before? Because that's my exact answer as well.
-
I’m at the point in my marriage where if we’re walking down the street together and I spot a looker, I’ll give my wife’s hand a squeeze and say out loud, “Wow. THAT’S a good-looking woman.” And she’ll either nod in agreement or scoff at my poor taste.
I'm at a point in my marriage where that would not be a wise thing to say. Not ever. :lol
I wouldn't do that either. I mean, we will have that conversation at times when the context is supportive of it, but I don't think it's fair to her to do that. And it's not like I'm going to withstand the scrutiny myself, so why invite that animal into the house? Would our relationship survive if I said that? I'm sure it would, but I'm not looking to stress the supports unnecessarily.
-
I always tell The Lovely Mrs TAC that the next time we're out, I'll show you a fat ass.
So usually when we are out, and we're behind someone with a huge ass, I'll get my wife's attention and glance down at the fat ass, and give my wife the look.
DUDE! Have we talked about this before? Because that's my exact answer as well.
Hah! No, we've never talked about that.
-
I want to take this out of context and explore this a bit further. I get you, hunnus, were setting up the joke about your SO's ass, so this isn't directed at you at all. But I know people who believe that sentence above 100%....meaning they share EVERYTHING and leave out NOTHING. I think in my younger days I may have...when dating and romance and relationships were new and exhilarating and thinking about the long haul of what it means to be a lifetime partner. But with the hindsight of aging, I just don't think it holds up. And maybe this comes down more on an individual style and how we relate to others but frankly, I don't WANT to know EVERYTHING. Important stuff - yes. But EVERYTHING? No.
I struggled with this for a while coming out of my last relationship; I think for me I landed on "authenticity". I don't need to be an open book, but any page that is open will be legit. I don't ACTIVELY keep things from her, but I'm not keeping a list to make sure she can navigate every single minute of my day, either. She's a quiet reserved person, so I don't get a lot from her without asking, but along these lines, I don't ask her things I don't want to know with the understanding that if I do ask it's only fair that we deal in truth/honesty.
I talk a lot about the difference between thought and action in the P/R threads, and for better or worse I try to walk the walk in my life. I have to accept that she's going to find things I do annoying, or see other men that are attractive, or consider one of my purchases frivolous. If it's an issue for her we will talk it through and I will be as authentic as I can be while doing so.
-
A little backstory: I have been with my girlfriend for two and a half years. She is the love of my life and I plan on marrying her and having a family and future with her someday. I also started a new job back in February and have made a few friends there, all girls around my age.
One of my coworkers told me that she and her boyfriend of six years just broke up. We talked about it for a little bit and I gave her the best advice I could, along the lines of “you guys started dating when you were still a teenager, so use this time to discover who you are as an adult outside of a relationship so you can be the best version of you”. Fast forward to a couple of days later, and she texts me saying that she drank too much and is feeling really down on herself. We start talking about our work schedules and how we wish our schedules lined up more often. She then asks when I’m free to go out for drinks, and me thinking nothing of it, start making plans with her, as in my mind I would be hanging out with a friend. She then starts sending blushing emojis and heart eye emojis and being pretty flirtatious. At this point it’s pretty late so I go to sleep. The next day we’re talking about work again and once again we’re talking about wanting out schedules to line up. She also asks if I’m still on for plans next Thursday, and I say yes. My girlfriend knows about none of this. Only my two best friends know, who I have on standby in case the night takes a weird turn and I need one of them to come and interject into the situation/get me out of there.
Should I feel guilty about this? I absolutely will NOT cheat on my girlfriend, as I’m head over heels in love with her and cheating goes against everything I stand for as a person and for me would be the equivalent of a character suicide. As far as I’m concerned I’m hanging out with a friend, but I’m holding off on telling my girlfriend because even without my friend from work being a little flirty, my girlfriend is a bit insecure and telling her that I have plans with a friend who is a single girl around our age will set her off. I want to hang out with my friend, because even if she makes a move, I won’t reciprocate, and IF she makes a move, I would absolutely tell my girlfriend about that. Still, this is a situation I’ve never dealt with before, and I have no idea if I’m handling things correctly.
Are you a 'bad' person? Who knows...(and who am I to judge?)
But, since you posed the question, I will offer this: simply reverse the situation with your SO.
Odds are, your SO going to a [insert hobby here] forum and asking a bunch of strangers if she's cheating by meeting some dude at a bar would leave you feeling a bit bummed, and maybe even a bit jealous. Plus, once the spirits start flowing, who knows what will happen.
Look, I've been on every side of this...especially when I was younger. I made mistakes and there were moments where I was someone else's mistake.
Now, I'm a married man with a kid (and another on the way...'40 year old w/ a newborn on the way' thread coming in the near future ;D), so the rules are VERY different for me (as far as I'm concerned), and I am holding myself to a way different standard bc I AM with the love of my life, and we have way too much going for us.
So, if I was in your shoes (and I actually have been), I'd simply say that I don't hang out with other women without my SO...because I don't.
20 years ago? Well, that was a different story...(and trust me, it never ended well).
I suppose I'm echoing a lot of other posts, but I'd suspect you already knew the answer to your question before you began typing it.
-
So for those of you in longer term relationships, how do you feel about sharing everything? Have you and your SO had conversations about this?
For me, we share almost everything, we have a thing of talking over dinner about our day, things that came up, people we spoke to and thoughts/ideas we had. We don't share every detail of it, but just enough to give an overview of things. There are times we don't tell each other something because we feel is meaningless. Plenty of time my overview is "the usual stuff, you know" and leave it at that.
I just think for us, we have a genuine interest in knowing how the other person's day was. And regarding to the OP topic, we do hang out with other people outside of each other, we are just always opened about who the other person is, if anyone else will be there. Even if she doesn't know the people I work with, I do talk about them and she has an idea about who they area.
-
So for those of you in longer term relationships, how do you feel about sharing everything? Have you and your SO had conversations about this?
There are things I will be taking to the grave with me.
-
Funny thing is is that being faithful is literally the easiest thing about being married.
-
That depends on the persons involved.
After reading the OP, I was thinking it seemed a non-issue to me. Married people, engaged people, hell, anybody in a committed monogamous relationship, are allowed to have friends, and some of those friends can and will be of the opposite gender. I personally don't see the problem getting together with a friend and helping them through a rough patch. Since their coping mechanism involves alcohol, alcohol will be involved.
But as I read response after response saying it was a bad idea, I slowly came around. The biggest issue (actually still the only issue in my mind) is that the SO is not aware of any of this. You're not hiding it from her, but you're not being open about it, either. And while I still maintain that that is your right, it's important to realize that she will not see it that way.
I see the simplest solution as just bringing along the SO. It's not too late to pivot to that. "Hey, a friend of mine from work is going through a rough patch, had a bad breakup, and needs to have a few drinks with someone they know and trust. But this friend is female, so obviously I want you to be there as well. I want everything to be out in the open, for her and for you. What do you think?"
-
AM I a bad person?
Wrong question. Most people who do bad things aren't bad persons, and you likely aren't either.
But proceeding with this course of action without telling your girlfriend would be a bad thing to do.
This.
-
I always tell The Lovely Mrs TAC that the next time we're out, I'll show you a fat ass.
So usually when we are out, and we're behind someone with a huge ass, I'll get my wife's attention and glance down at the fat ass, and give my wife the look.
Ha! Yes, I've done this too!
-
I see the simplest solution as just bringing along the SO. It's not too late to pivot to that. "Hey, a friend of mine from work is going through a rough patch, had a bad breakup, and needs to have a few drinks with someone they know and trust. But this friend is female, so obviously I want you to be there as well. I want everything to be out in the open, for her and for you. What do you think?"
And my luck the co worker would say something to my wife along the lines of, "Ooh I never thought of having another woman with me when I had sex."
-
Three's company. Or so I've heard.
-
She wants a rebound. If anything, she's the bad person for trying to do that when she knows you're in a relationship.
-
And there are plenty of things I keep from my spouse. Not earth-shattering things - not relationship breaker things. But many things that he a) probably doesn't really give a shit about or b) would only add to the jumble of things he's already dealing with and aren't really important to him.
So for those of you in longer term relationships, how do you feel about sharing everything? Have you and your SO had conversations about this?
Same. I hate oversharing and feeling like I'm oversharing. I will never tell him because his stress release mechanism is to say everything out loud, but I wish I knew less about those everyday things that make my husband feel bad, like stuff that happens at work or in his family or circle of friends. I think about negative things a lot after they happen and dwell on them if I can't make them go away, it's a hum of constant negative noise that just makes life less fun, and I try to keep mine to myself, share what I can with someone who has been through the same thing, and then as a last resort come to him if there's a track record of him responding well, but usually there isn't because we're different people and we go through different things.
To hit on a different note in the thread, I wish I was exposed to less dumb locker room talk from men in general but especially from him (since I don't have IRL male friends now due to pandemic moving). The street is not a meat market, you can just say "wow she looks good" without going in on the details. If you don't know what amount of it is appropriate, it's always less than what you're guessing.
-
And there are plenty of things I keep from my spouse. Not earth-shattering things - not relationship breaker things. But many things that he a) probably doesn't really give a shit about or b) would only add to the jumble of things he's already dealing with and aren't really important to him.
So for those of you in longer term relationships, how do you feel about sharing everything? Have you and your SO had conversations about this?
Same. I hate oversharing and feeling like I'm oversharing. I will never tell him because his stress release mechanism is to say everything out loud, but I wish I knew less about those everyday things that make my husband feel bad, like stuff that happens at work or in his family or circle of friends. I think about negative things a lot after they happen and dwell on them if I can't make them go away, it's a hum of constant negative noise that just makes life less fun, and I try to keep mine to myself, share what I can with someone who has been through the same thing, and then as a last resort come to him if there's a track record of him responding well, but usually there isn't because we're different people and we go through different things.
To hit on a different note in the thread, I wish I was exposed to less dumb locker room talk from men in general but especially from him (since I don't have IRL male friends now due to pandemic moving). The street is not a meat market, you can just say "wow she looks good" without going in on the details. If you don't know what amount of it is appropriate, it's always less than what you're guessing.
To clarify, we don't share everything and never have but early in our relationship we did discuss what we thought would be dishonest behavior. For instance, a co-worker at the time told my wife that he was having lunch with his Ex. but he couldn't tell his current wife because she would be too jealous. OK - that's his bidness but for us, that would be wrong. There are a number of things we discussed but of course like others, big ticket purchases always goes through a discussion.
And after 24 years of marriage, I still tell her to this day if I am going to lunch with a friend-girl and it's just me and her and it's a good thing I did because she found a strand of long black hair but before things could get ugly, I told here and that I already informed her that I was going to lunch with Kim but I drove. She just smiled and said she had forgotten. The key to relationships is communication.
-
FWIW, I’ve disclosed just about everything to my girlfriend, especially considering the fact that my ex-girlfriend (who I dated for 8 years and was cheated on by multiple times) is the former singer of my band. I know my girlfriend’s dating history and try very hard to make sure she feels like she can trust me, because having come from a toxic relationship in the past, I know how much that mistrust can destroy a person. At the same time though, it would be unfair for me to not have friends that are girls when my girlfriend has plenty of friends that are guys. I think my girlfriend trusts me enough that me hanging out with another girl won’t upset her, but I also want to try and get more people to come out, and I don’t want to tell my girlfriend the plan until I have all of the details. And as far as the coworker that prompted this thread creation, we’ve spoken since then and she hasn’t been flirty, but I’m still gonna tread lightly while I figure out what the hell is happening, especially since I’m seriously considering going full time at this job.
-
FWIW, I’ve disclosed just about everything to my girlfriend, especially considering the fact that my ex-girlfriend (who I dated for 8 years and was cheated on by multiple times) is the former singer of my band. I know my girlfriend’s dating history and try very hard to make sure she feels like she can trust me, because having come from a toxic relationship in the past, I know how much that mistrust can destroy a person. At the same time though, it would be unfair for me to not have friends that are girls when my girlfriend has plenty of friends that are guys. I think my girlfriend trusts me enough that me hanging out with another girl won’t upset her, but I also want to try and get more people to come out, and I don’t want to tell my girlfriend the plan until I have all of the details. And as far as the coworker that prompted this thread creation, we’ve spoken since then and she hasn’t been flirty, but I’m still gonna tread lightly while I figure out what the hell is happening, especially since I’m seriously considering going full time at this job.
Another reason that this is a bad idea.
-
And as far as the coworker that prompted this thread creation, we’ve spoken since then and she hasn’t been flirty, but I’m still gonna tread lightly while I figure out what the hell is happening, especially since I’m seriously considering going full time at this job.
Oof. I hope she takes the hint that you weren't being flirty back and doesn't make an awkward situation when you go full time. I feel for you man, and to reiterate, you really haven't done anything wrong except act without thinking things through for like two seconds.
-
I think the two issues, from my POV are 1) the secrecy and 2) her expectations.
I wouldn’t have any issues with anyone in a couple hanging out with someone from the attracted sex. If your partner doesn’t trust you or vice versa, that’s an issue to work out, not placate. Always be honest and make sure you’re clear, crystal clear, with the boundaries with new lady.
My two best friends are girls and my girlfriend doesn’t care anymore. She did at the beginning when there were some insecurities but we have trust. If she wanted to hang out with guys, that’s fine. I trust her completely. If she finds someone better than me, that would suck but i wouldn’t want her staying with me simply because I’m keeping her away from something better.
Agreed with all of this but I especially like the second paragraph.
-
FWIW, I’ve disclosed just about everything to my girlfriend, especially considering the fact that my ex-girlfriend (who I dated for 8 years and was cheated on by multiple times) is the former singer of my band. I know my girlfriend’s dating history and try very hard to make sure she feels like she can trust me, because having come from a toxic relationship in the past, I know how much that mistrust can destroy a person. At the same time though, it would be unfair for me to not have friends that are girls when my girlfriend has plenty of friends that are guys. I think my girlfriend trusts me enough that me hanging out with another girl won’t upset her, but I also want to try and get more people to come out, and I don’t want to tell my girlfriend the plan until I have all of the details. And as far as the coworker that prompted this thread creation, we’ve spoken since then and she hasn’t been flirty, but I’m still gonna tread lightly while I figure out what the hell is happening, especially since I’m seriously considering going full time at this job.
Another reason that this is a bad idea.
Absolutely. Your career needs to come first, not this chick who is going to use and abuse you for her own self gratification. Stay the hell away.
-
I think the vernacular is "don't dip your pen in company ink", or, more crudely, "don't shit where you eat." Sound advice that one.
Came here to post about avoiding the deification of your dining location :corn
But also remember this: the vast majority of cheating boyfriends get on the road to cheating by way of the "but we were just friends and then it just happened" type of rationale. The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). When you're in those prime sexual years there are things going on in your brain that you simply cannot prevent from going on. They're primal things, linked to the hypothalamus part of your brain - the part of the brain that tells you, "fuck her! fuck her brains out!" and the minute she reaches over and starts trying to lick your tonsils your relationship with your current G/F will begin to end.
The question you want to ask yourself is this: How would I feel about my G/F going "out for drinks" with another guy? Or better yet, how would you feel about your G/F going out with another guy, but also keeping that information from you?
-
Again, my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.
-
Again, my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.
uh, I don't think anyone here is saying that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible, but I admit I didn't read every post here.
-
Again, my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.
uh, I don't think anyone here is saying that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible, but I admit I didn't read every post here.
I'm leaning with KNH here. I'm also not saying they are impossible, but they take work, maturity and understanding. Just because I THINK about jumping someone's bones doesn't mean I will or I will even try, I'm an adult who is (relatively) in control of myself, but I also know that "man plans and God laughs". I also know that I'm not the kind of guy that makes my partner work for it; I worry that I'm treating my partner with respect and dignity, and to me that means not pushing their buttons. I remember advice an old girlfriend gave to her friend: "Yeah, you're right. So you won the battle. Did you win the war?" And I also know that it's smart to not even put myself in that position to begin with; there are many things that I've sort of decided aren't worth even trying. I can't die of a cocaine OD if I never take it to begin with.
The only REAL advice here is "do what you feel is right", but to me, I would weigh "is it worth the friendship, is it worth the minute spike to my ego that this woman wants me, in exchange for the degradation of trust that will inevitably happen if she finds out?" TRUST ME, if I learned anything from my two marriages, it's that trust is like a sandcastle or a house of cards: it takes a LONG time to build, it takes one moment to destroy.
-
Again, my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.
uh, I don't think anyone here is saying that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible, but I admit I didn't read every post here.
Didn’t you? You said it’s not possible. I’m 36. So I’m in that age range. Maybe I misread?
-
TRUST ME, if I learned anything from my two marriages, it's that trust is like a sandcastle or a house of cards: it takes a LONG time to build, it takes one moment to destroy.
The best way I ever heard trust explained is this ... Trust is earned in pennies, and spent in dollars.
-
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). When you're in those prime sexual years there are things going on in your brain that you simply cannot prevent from going on.
I think you might be overstating it a bit? The key word is attraction, not sex. Personally speaking, I know almost immediately if I'm attracted to someone in that way. Getting to know them better over time or working closely with them hardly changes that.
-
TRUST ME, if I learned anything from my two marriages, it's that trust is like a sandcastle or a house of cards: it takes a LONG time to build, it takes one moment to destroy.
Man, that's a good one, and even if you decide to work together and rebuild the sandcastle or house of cards, it'll never be what it was. It might look similar, but it's still not the same.
-
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). When you're in those prime sexual years there are things going on in your brain that you simply cannot prevent from going on.
I think you might be overstating it a bit? The key word is attraction, not sex. Personally speaking, I know almost immediately if I'm attracted to someone in that way. Getting to know them better over time or working closely with them hardly changes that.
I don't know if that's necessarily true; I definitely have things I'm attracted to physically, but there are things that are intangible. I've certainly had experiences where there was something just undeniably attractive about a woman that perhaps wasn't reflected in whatever I could see in the moment. I don't deny the "immediacy" in the sense that it's not conscious thought, it's visceral, but that visceral attraction can grow over time.
-
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). When you're in those prime sexual years there are things going on in your brain that you simply cannot prevent from going on.
I think you might be overstating it a bit? The key word is attraction, not sex. Personally speaking, I know almost immediately if I'm attracted to someone in that way. Getting to know them better over time or working closely with them hardly changes that.
I don't know if that's necessarily true; I definitely have things I'm attracted to physically, but there are things that are intangible. I've certainly had experiences where there was something just undeniably attractive about a woman that perhaps wasn't reflected in whatever I could see in the moment. I don't deny the "immediacy" in the sense that it's not conscious thought, it's visceral, but that visceral attraction can grow over time.
This. And, I find that the 'visceral' attraction (at least for me) has grown more important as I've gotten older.
Redhead, pale, with tattoos might equal 'hot,' but watching a slightly-overweight burnette putting on an awesome display of 'mothering' is probably gonna leave a more lasting impression with me at this point in my life. I'm sure everyone is different here, but even my definition of attraction has evolved over time.
-
So for those of you in longer term relationships, how do you feel about sharing everything? Have you and your SO had conversations about this?
To me, the distinction, as relevant to this thread, is whether we can share everything. I fully agree with you that not everything needs to be shared. Your examples are spot on about things that don't need to be shared. But if there was every anything I felt like I couldn't tell her, that would be a red flag.
Another example that comes to mind is where one of the kids needs to talk about something he or she is struggling with that they feel is appropriate just for dad (or just for mom). We have had those situations come up. And I tell them "I don't hide anything from mom. But we have both agreed that there are times when you need to just talk to one or the other, and it isn't really something that needs to be shared. So unless I think your health or safety are in danger and that I simply can't deal with it on my own, yes, we can keep this just between you and I." My wife and I talked about that, and we agree that it is more important for the kids to trust and open up to us. That seems to work.
-
So for those of you in longer term relationships, how do you feel about sharing everything? Have you and your SO had conversations about this?
To me, the distinction, as relevant to this thread, is whether we can share everything. I fully agree with you that not everything needs to be shared. Your examples are spot on about things that don't need to be shared. But if there was every anything I felt like I couldn't tell her, that would be a red flag.
Another example that comes to mind is where one of the kids needs to talk about something he or she is struggling with that they feel is appropriate just for dad (or just for mom). We have had those situations come up. And I tell them "I don't hide anything from mom. But we have both agreed that there are times when you need to just talk to one or the other, and it isn't really something that needs to be shared. So unless I think your health or safety are in danger and that I simply can't deal with it on my own, yes, we can keep this just between you and I." My wife and I talked about that, and we agree that it is more important for the kids to trust and open up to us. That seems to work.
That's good stuff there, boss.
-
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). When you're in those prime sexual years there are things going on in your brain that you simply cannot prevent from going on.
I think you might be overstating it a bit? The key word is attraction, not sex. Personally speaking, I know almost immediately if I'm attracted to someone in that way. Getting to know them better over time or working closely with them hardly changes that.
I don't know if that's necessarily true; I definitely have things I'm attracted to physically, but there are things that are intangible. I've certainly had experiences where there was something just undeniably attractive about a woman that perhaps wasn't reflected in whatever I could see in the moment. I don't deny the "immediacy" in the sense that it's not conscious thought, it's visceral, but that visceral attraction can grow over time.
Maybe, but it's not happened to me yet, despite being in a lot of roles over the years where I worked with females closely and had relatively close relationships, and I'm not getting thirstier as I get older. If the attraction was there at all, it was always there from the beginning.
-
It all depends on what you are into. I'm very sensitive to looks; I'm not saying that every girl I date has to be Margot Robbie, but I have to be attracted to her physically. Just like there are things that erode an attraction over time - if Margot Robbie smelled like a dumpster, or continually played the victim on everything, that would diminish her attractiveness to me - there are things that increase attraction over time. I'm a big smile guy, so a girl that laughs a lot or has a sexy smile will be attractive to me even if at first glance she's not model hot.
-
I would say to be very careful with this one, what starts out as innocent can easily get out of hand. One little spark can cause a whole forest fire, and someone will get burnt.
The worst advice anyone can ever give you is to follow your heart. The heart can lead you astray and cloud rational thinking. When alcohol is involved, you're way more likely to act on any type of feelings that could creep up. Even a couple of drinks can remove inhibitions and put you in the danger zone.
I speak from experience and believe me, living with a marred conscience really sucks! :facepalm:
-
It all depends on what you are into. I'm very sensitive to looks; I'm not saying that every girl I date has to be Margot Robbie, but I have to be attracted to her physically. Just like there are things that erode an attraction over time - if Margot Robbie smelled like a dumpster, or continually played the victim on everything, that would diminish her attractiveness to me - there are things that increase attraction over time. I'm a big smile guy, so a girl that laughs a lot or has a sexy smile will be attractive to me even if at first glance she's not model hot.
I definitely don't have model standards. But I do know right away.
And I guess that's the question for people in similar situations - can you really say "just friends"?
Some people have said here that they see everyone of the opposite sex to be a prospect, so that "just friends" can never really apply. I do not see everyone of the opposite sex to be a prospect, but I could tell you very quickly and easily who out of my friends would be. So the bottom line should be the same: shouldn't take too much soul searching to figure out who you could be platonic with and who you wouldn't be given the right circumstances.
-
I think the two issues, from my POV are 1) the secrecy and 2) her expectations.
I wouldn’t have any issues with anyone in a couple hanging out with someone from the attracted sex. If your partner doesn’t trust you or vice versa, that’s an issue to work out, not placate. Always be honest and make sure you’re clear, crystal clear, with the boundaries with new lady.
My two best friends are girls and my girlfriend doesn’t care anymore. She did at the beginning when there were some insecurities but we have trust. If she wanted to hang out with guys, that’s fine. I trust her completely. If she finds someone better than me, that would suck but i wouldn’t want her staying with me simply because I’m keeping her away from something better.
I completely agree with this and everything else you've said in this thread. I've never had any difficulty with being friends with the attracted sex, nor had issues with my wife (or past girlfriends) doing so. And I especially agree with your point that if a couple does find it's an issue, they should try to resolve it instead of placating it and pretending it's not there (and, what, just never making friends with the attracted sex again?).
Most of the replies in this thread I just can't really relate to.
-
I think the two issues, from my POV are 1) the secrecy and 2) her expectations.
I wouldn’t have any issues with anyone in a couple hanging out with someone from the attracted sex. If your partner doesn’t trust you or vice versa, that’s an issue to work out, not placate. Always be honest and make sure you’re clear, crystal clear, with the boundaries with new lady.
My two best friends are girls and my girlfriend doesn’t care anymore. She did at the beginning when there were some insecurities but we have trust. If she wanted to hang out with guys, that’s fine. I trust her completely. If she finds someone better than me, that would suck but i wouldn’t want her staying with me simply because I’m keeping her away from something better.
I completely agree with this and everything else you've said in this thread. I've never had any difficulty with being friends with the attracted sex, nor had issues with my wife (or past girlfriends) doing so. And I especially agree with your point that if a couple does find it's an issue, they should try to resolve it instead of placating it and pretending it's not there (and, what, just never making friends with the attracted sex again?).
Most of the replies in this thread I just can't really relate to.
But this is why this subject is so difficult; there aren't clear lanes, or clear pathways. I've said a lot of things here that are seemingly contradictory, but they are all true and I have to navigate all of them, sometimes in real time. I don't assume everyone is like me, but I imagine some are.
I do have a hard time not ever even once not imagining what "something further" would be like. FOR ME, that's natural. That's not at all to say I lust after every woman in my life - I don't - or that it undermines every friendship - it doesn't - nor does it mean that it is hard to be friends with females (especially if they are partners of my friends; I'm pretty solid in that department and have a track record of not mowing other men's lawns) - it's not. We're, I think, all adults here, and we're allowed to be contradictory, we're allowed to be fluid, and we're allowed to explore possibilities even if intellectual in nature. But presumably, just like we THINK about telling our bosses to fuck right off, we don't always do it.
These, however, are all the reasons why this is a bad idea as scripted, because all THREE parties get to do just that, AND in real time, AND with alcohol involved. Maybe the girls DOESN'T mean to entice. Maybe she gets there and it feels good to feel attracted, and things change. Maybe the girlfriend is cool with it in theory, but then decides it doesn't work in practice. Or she gets there, and sees that it's not what she envisioned and it's now a problem.
I don't know; unless you're willing to accept all possible consequences - which is your prerogative - this seems like the opposite of "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Meaning, you can't get into trouble if you avoid the whole thing to begin with.
-
I think the two issues, from my POV are 1) the secrecy and 2) her expectations.
I wouldn’t have any issues with anyone in a couple hanging out with someone from the attracted sex. If your partner doesn’t trust you or vice versa, that’s an issue to work out, not placate. Always be honest and make sure you’re clear, crystal clear, with the boundaries with new lady.
My two best friends are girls and my girlfriend doesn’t care anymore. She did at the beginning when there were some insecurities but we have trust. If she wanted to hang out with guys, that’s fine. I trust her completely. If she finds someone better than me, that would suck but i wouldn’t want her staying with me simply because I’m keeping her away from something better.
I completely agree with this and everything else you've said in this thread. I've never had any difficulty with being friends with the attracted sex, nor had issues with my wife (or past girlfriends) doing so. And I especially agree with your point that if a couple does find it's an issue, they should try to resolve it instead of placating it and pretending it's not there (and, what, just never making friends with the attracted sex again?).
Most of the replies in this thread I just can't really relate to.
I think you're a little mixed up here Rich. Most aren't saying they can't have a friendship with a girl. Most are saying She and he are already crossing a line that he needs to pull back from. If he was honest from the get go with his significant other then he wouldn't be in this situation.
You can't relate to most of the responses here because you would have done the correct thing and talked it over with your wife. Because you've had this honesty, she can trust you and you do not have that feeling of being sneaking or untrustworthy.
Me? I'm like you. Very honest with my wife and she actually meets all my friends and loves hanging out with them. Guys and girls.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
I see a hint of truth in that though.
What is the only reason why we inhibit our sexual desires?
Culture and Society. All cultures and societies view Sexual Desires differently. And because the Bible perspective mindset dominates the world. The world view of Sexual Desires is dictated and based on that bible and is therefore considered "Wrong".
But, the bible itself clashes with other mindsets and perspectives of Sexual Desires.
But if one were to do away with our Society and Cultures we would be like animals and mating any women we find desirable. And women would do just the same.
What if we were to be just like the birds and the women would search for us men, while us men work hard to perform a dance, flaunt our feathers, provide the best pebble, or build the best sturdy house.
Also, Alcohol facilitates these Sexual Desires. Causing all that morality done by Society and Culture to completely be disregarded. As people act out their thoughts while on alcohol.
-
It's not the only reason, though, and that is my point and I think part of Adami's as well. There are too many people, too many permutations, too many variables here to isolate one. Do I tell my wife everything because I'm the most honest guy I know? Or because I love her so much I can't bear to hurt her? Or because I'm so needy that I can bear to have her mad at me so I get in front of it as fast as I can? Or because I'm so scared and anxious that I'll lose my best friend? I get to the same place, but for very different reasons, or, maybe, because of all those reasons in part?
It's a separate discussion for a different thread, but some of this is a more general resistance to the idea that "everyone isn't just like me". Humans are joiners, and some of us have a real problem with the understanding that everyone ISN'T just like them, that we DON'T always look at the same situation the same way. I remember there was a thread... I forget if it was here or at mp.com (though I seem to remember a particular poster here being rather emphatic on the point) where someone posited "we're all a LITTLE gay, it's just a matter of circumstances", and if you denied that, you were "lying to yourself or us". And I can tell you that while I respect that there's no harm in that, while I honor what anyone gets turned on by, while I think it's no one's business but your own, I can tell you that I have never even had the inclination to experiment, despite what I would generally consider ample opportunity.
The trick to all of this, including the OP's predicament, is in making the effort to be honest with ourselves, even when it's against our best interest: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201708/the-many-ways-we-lie-ourselves
-
Again, my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.
uh, I don't think anyone here is saying that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible, but I admit I didn't read every post here.
Didn’t you? You said it’s not possible. I’m 36. So I’m in that age range. Maybe I misread?
Yeah, actually I re-read my post and I can see how you got that impression. I use a lot of sarcasm and I don't always color it green, but I was being sarcastic with that statement. :lol
Let me clarify that a bit. What I'm saying is based on my own experience with this, maintaining a 100% platonic relationship with a woman when I was a young man was, for all intents and purposes, a non-starter. But I can only speak for myself here. Can there be 100% platonic male/female relationships? Yeah, sure, I guess so. I think it can and does happen, but I also think it's pretty rare. When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:
1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked
Platonic relationships with women made about as much sense to me as: 2 + 2 = potato
I tend to think most young people struggle with this the same way I struggled with it as a young man. Pretty sure I spent my entire 20's with a perpetual boner.
-
To paint a blanket in absolutes is never going to be accurate, because there are always exceptions. But the reason why we are giving NYC the warnings is because Barry’s point (that men and women usually can’t be “just friends”) is true more often than it’s not true. But it doesn’t apply to absolutely everyone, always, 100% of the time.
Also, most of us have witnessed (or been party to) a situation that began just like Adami’s exception….until it wasn’t. So for a great majority of us, it’s just safer to remove the issue at the roots.
-
When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:
1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked
Damn, I've never been so happy I'm not a woman. :lol
-
When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:
1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked
Damn, I've never been so happy I'm not a woman. :lol
Sounds like you would’ve been boinked.
-
Sounds that way. :lol
-
Again, my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.
uh, I don't think anyone here is saying that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible, but I admit I didn't read every post here.
Didn’t you? You said it’s not possible. I’m 36. So I’m in that age range. Maybe I misread?
Yeah, actually I re-read my post and I can see how you got that impression. I use a lot of sarcasm and I don't always color it green, but I was being sarcastic with that statement. :lol
Let me clarify that a bit. What I'm saying is based on my own experience with this, maintaining a 100% platonic relationship with a woman when I was a young man was, for all intents and purposes, a non-starter. But I can only speak for myself here. Can there be 100% platonic male/female relationships? Yeah, sure, I guess so. I think it can and does happen, but I also think it's pretty rare. When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:
1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked
Platonic relationships with women made about as much sense to me as: 2 + 2 = potato
I tend to think most young people struggle with this the same way I struggled with it as a young man. Pretty sure I spent my entire 20's with a perpetual boner.
I appreciate the clarification. I agree you’re right more often than not with that. I just get a little sensitive about those blanket statements because I don’t think about banging boinking people as often as most guys and it’s never fun to be seen as less than or defective for it. All good. Boink on bro.
-
In fact Adami…I actually strive to be more like you in that way
-
In fact Adami…I actually strive to be more like you in that way
In most ways I’d assume. :millahhhh
-
Again, my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.
uh, I don't think anyone here is saying that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible, but I admit I didn't read every post here.
Didn’t you? You said it’s not possible. I’m 36. So I’m in that age range. Maybe I misread?
Yeah, actually I re-read my post and I can see how you got that impression. I use a lot of sarcasm and I don't always color it green, but I was being sarcastic with that statement. :lol
Let me clarify that a bit. What I'm saying is based on my own experience with this, maintaining a 100% platonic relationship with a woman when I was a young man was, for all intents and purposes, a non-starter. But I can only speak for myself here. Can there be 100% platonic male/female relationships? Yeah, sure, I guess so. I think it can and does happen, but I also think it's pretty rare. When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:
1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked
Platonic relationships with women made about as much sense to me as: 2 + 2 = potato
I tend to think most young people struggle with this the same way I struggled with it as a young man. Pretty sure I spent my entire 20's with a perpetual boner.
Ahhhh...those days we're good days. They're gone now, but happy to have had them ;D
(bonus points if anyone can guess the quote)
-
Ahhhh...those days we're good days. They're gone now, but happy to have had them ;D
(bonus points if anyone can guess the quote)
Um...WilliamMunny maybe?
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
I don't know what to say to that. I don't think it's absolute. I can't say what others' want the standard to be, but my brain can work on multiple levels. Even women I find attractive aren't just a "sexual resource". If we're going to assume that all men (and all women) are not the same then we can't really use the standard that someone is "a population of people who are just like me". We're all complicated, multi-faceted people who have varying levels of attributes.
And - and I get that this is going to be problematic - so what if someone does? Isn't that the beauty of the melting pot? Some of us have zero sex drive, and some of us have raging sex drives, and all points in between. Man or woman, if someone views the opposite sex as a "sexual resource", why is that necessarily bad? The rest of us can choose or not to participate in that. I'm no Zak Efron, so for me, a woman that views males as a "sexual resource" is probably on the outskirts of things; but so what? I'm not here to tell people what they should or should not think.
That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.
With respect, I'm not sure that's ENTIRELY true. I think it's a little... harsh to call a way of thinking a "personality flaw". Would a promiscuous woman have a "personality flaw"? I guess I'm a guy, so I'm biased, but for me, it's less about men and women generally than the specific instance. My wife is an attractive woman, and she gets attention from males. She's also one of those women that feels it's "easier" to have male friends, so most of her friends ARE male. I kind of don't buy that generally - I've heard that from pretty much every one of my serious relationships; it's for another thread, but I think there's something else going on there - but I trust my wife to tell me her truth. I don't have a problem with any of her friends, except one. I'm not sure I could put into words why, but it was just different. Whatever I feel about the generalities of males and females, the problem there - and there was a problem, at least with me - it was about that specific instance.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.
I may be misunderstanding here, but I would say the personality flaw is when a man cannot control his hormones, not when the man has natural sexual desires for a woman. I'm not entirely sure we can control our desires in our heads but we certainly can control our desires with our actions.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.
I may be misunderstanding here, but I would say the personality flaw is when a man cannot control his hormones, not when the man has natural sexual desires for a woman. I'm not entirely sure we can control our desires in our heads but we certainly can control our desires with our actions.
I'm not speaking for Mora here but there is a part of this "flaw" that has to do with conditioning and isn't just about hormones or impulses. We all have hormones and impulses and we all have been conditioned to a smaller or larger extent to think about how we view the mating pool and interact within in. I don't think it has as much to do with promiscuity but instead the beliefs in some individuals that others are there merely to satisfy their needs and therefore - in this example - women as human beings are seen as less than important in the equation and are objectified down to merely a sexual being.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
Yeah, I honestly don't get this. My friends growing up never talked about women this way. There was no "locker room" talk. We had girls we liked and would talk about them (and not in a really explicit way either) but even when my hormones were going crazy I never felt that way about women. I think it might be partly generational and cultural, moreso than biological, with a shift taking place over the last few decades. Or maybe it is partly biological and there are some underlying factors. Of course one look at the sex industry would suggest otherwise - it's booming with men of all ages enjoying it generously. Which to me says that men are more-or-less the same as they always were, even if they appear much more refined on the most visible layers. Only now, perhaps, we are being held to the same standards of self-repression that women have known for centuries.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
Yeah, I honestly don't get this. My friends growing up never talked about women this way. There was no "locker room" talk. We had girls we liked and would talk about them (and not in a really explicit way either) but even when my hormones were going crazy I never felt that way about women. I think it might be partly generational and cultural, moreso than biological, with a shift taking place over the last few decades. Or maybe it is partly biological and there are some underlying factors. Of course one look at the sex industry would suggest otherwise - it's booming with men of all ages enjoying it generously. Which to me says that men are more-or-less the same as they always were, even if they appear much more refined on the most visible layers. Only now, perhaps, we are being held to the same standards of self-repression that women have known for centuries.
So much this. My guy friends and I will talk about our sex lives with each other, but it’s not really in an explicit way, more in line with discussing our overall relationships, and I’ve never looked at women solely in a sexual way. Most of my friends are girls yet the only two sexual partners I’ve ever had are my ex-girlfriend and my current girlfriend. I think the culture shift plays a role, but I also think the increase in divorce cases has led to more boys being raised mostly by their mothers, leading to them not picking up the classic toxic masculinity characteristics from their dads during their formative years.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.
I may be misunderstanding here, but I would say the personality flaw is when a man cannot control his hormones, not when the man has natural sexual desires for a woman. I'm not entirely sure we can control our desires in our heads but we certainly can control our desires with our actions.
I'm not speaking for Mora here but there is a part of this "flaw" that has to do with conditioning and isn't just about hormones or impulses. We all have hormones and impulses and we all have been conditioned to a smaller or larger extent to think about how we view the mating pool and interact within in. I don't think it has as much to do with promiscuity but instead the beliefs in some individuals that others are there merely to satisfy their needs and therefore - in this example - women as human beings are seen as less than important in the equation and are objectified down to merely a sexual being.
Men having been conditioned to treat women as sexual objects is very much real, I don't disagree with that. I just didn't read Mora's post thinking about it that way since it seemed the discussion was about natural sexual desires of men. Society plays a role here too, for sure.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.
That's only American Men though. There are vast cultures that view women differently. One mindset/perspective does not equal how all Men and Women throughout the world think.
You know how my people treated women, we treated them with respect, and held them highly. Women are the basis for our social structure, and is how we view the world. We don't view it in the Father/Male sense, we view it through the Mother/Female sense. The women decided which man to be with, Men had to do things in order for them to marry them, they build them a house, and that house is the womens womb and home, her responsibility is to take care of that home, as it houses her and her children. The house is not the mans, the only thing that a man takes care of in this sort of responsibility is the fields where he plants his seed in the womb of Mother Earth with his planting stick.
Due to this, women also viewed themselves with respect, and understood their roles and responsibilities in our societies. We are clan based, and our lineage traces back from our grandmothers. In order to save a clan, one has to strive to have a female, and we know what that means. Her responsibility in this case for the clan is to reproduce until she has that daughter.
Cultural roles, and responsibilities play into account on how Men treat Women, and how women also treat themselves.
American Men and Women roles and responsibilities, what are they?
Also, Sex is a natural process that everything does to reproduce and multiply. Some are asexual and can reproduce by splicing itself and creating basically a clone of itself.
Humans themselves are the ones that give this natural process meaning. Animals have that instinct to reproduce and will search out for that, and also each species has their own way of mating and flirting.
-
Also, Sex is a natural process that everything does to reproduce and multiply. Some are asexual and can reproduce by splicing itself and creating basically a clone of itself.
No to nitpick, but that's not what asexual reproduction is. I believe you're thinking of cellular mitosis. Many large creatures such as certain species of sharks reproduce asexually. They're not splicing themselves in two. They carry the offspring to terms and deliver them at birth, they just don't need gametes from two different individuals to get pregnant.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.
I may be misunderstanding here, but I would say the personality flaw is when a man cannot control his hormones, not when the man has natural sexual desires for a woman. I'm not entirely sure we can control our desires in our heads but we certainly can control our desires with our actions.
I'm not speaking for Mora here but there is a part of this "flaw" that has to do with conditioning and isn't just about hormones or impulses. We all have hormones and impulses and we all have been conditioned to a smaller or larger extent to think about how we view the mating pool and interact within in. I don't think it has as much to do with promiscuity but instead the beliefs in some individuals that others are there merely to satisfy their needs and therefore - in this example - women as human beings are seen as less than important in the equation and are objectified down to merely a sexual being.
This is a larger question for a different conversation, but I struggle with the concept here in the context of women versus in the general context of human behavior. There are people who believe ALL people that aren't them are merely there to satisfy their needs, sexual or otherwise (would anyone argue with me saying "Trump"?). I struggle with the isolation of certain feelings out of context. There are times when I DO look at my wife... not as an object, maybe, but as a sexual being. She's beautiful, to me, and desirable, to me. But not ALL times; the vast majority of times she is my partner, and my equal, intellectually, emotionally, and practically. Maybe even my superior.
Some of these things sound like rules, and I don't see how these rules can be one size fits all.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
Yeah, I honestly don't get this. My friends growing up never talked about women this way. There was no "locker room" talk. We had girls we liked and would talk about them (and not in a really explicit way either) but even when my hormones were going crazy I never felt that way about women. I think it might be partly generational and cultural, moreso than biological, with a shift taking place over the last few decades. Or maybe it is partly biological and there are some underlying factors. Of course one look at the sex industry would suggest otherwise - it's booming with men of all ages enjoying it generously. Which to me says that men are more-or-less the same as they always were, even if they appear much more refined on the most visible layers. Only now, perhaps, we are being held to the same standards of self-repression that women have known for centuries.
Which is ironic and counter productive. If the "self-repression" was so healthy and effective, we wouldn't be where we are.
-
Some of these things sound like rules, and I don't see how these rules can be one size fits all.
I'm not seeing where anyone said that. ???
Of course there are somepeople (men and women) who see others only as tools to get what they want. That is why I said "in this example." It wasn't meant to extrapolate to ALL men or YOU, Stadler.
I'm trying to think of any woman I know personally who hasn't at least once felt totally objectified by some man somewhere down the line at some point in their life. I'm sure there must be, but I'd say it's a pretty commonplace experience for most women. Can you men here in this discussion say that about the guys you know?
-
Some of these things sound like rules, and I don't see how these rules can be one size fits all.
I'm not seeing where anyone said that. ???
Of course there are somepeople (men and women) who see others only as tools to get what they want. That is why I said "in this example." It wasn't meant to extrapolate to ALL men or YOU, Stadler.
I'm trying to think of any woman I know personally who hasn't at least once felt totally objectified by some man somewhere down the line at some point in their life. I'm sure there must be, but I'd say it's a pretty commonplace experience for most women. Can you men here in this discussion say that about the guys you know?
I've dated a couple girls who seemed to only want my dick (and I'm nothing to brag about, so don't take it that way). I've legit felt before that I was just an object for sex. (and once I felt that way, I got away from such females). I think this happens with older women though, never in my youth did I experience that.
But I think many men can say women have used them for their wealth and security. I'm not entirely sure it's that different. While men desire sex, women sometimes desire security from a man. It can be conditioned as well.
-
No to nitpick, but that's not what asexual reproduction is.
Some levity...
https://youtu.be/_3NjYhgg-qQ
-
Some of these things sound like rules, and I don't see how these rules can be one size fits all.
I'm not seeing where anyone said that. ???
Of course there are somepeople (men and women) who see others only as tools to get what they want. That is why I said "in this example." It wasn't meant to extrapolate to ALL men or YOU, Stadler.
I'm trying to think of any woman I know personally who hasn't at least once felt totally objectified by some man somewhere down the line at some point in their life. I'm sure there must be, but I'd say it's a pretty commonplace experience for most women. Can you men here in this discussion say that about the guys you know?
I've dated a couple girls who seemed to only want my dick (and I'm nothing to brag about, so don't take it that way). I've legit felt before that I was just an object for sex. (and once I felt that way, I got away from such females). I think this happens with older women though, never in my youth did I experience that.
But I think many men can say women have used them for their wealth and security. I'm not entirely sure it's that different. While men desire sex, women sometimes desire security from a man. It can be conditioned as well.
Oh I have no doubt that men can feel objectified sexually too. I also have no doubt that some people ENJOY feeling objectified. I was making a comment on how commonplace it can be for women moreso than for men.
And I definitely agree that women have been conditioned to look to men for providing wealth and security. I can hear my mom clearly in my head now (because of how often she said this in my formative years) "It's just as easy to love a rich man as it is to love a poor man." I think back on those words of "advice?" and shudder in revulsion. Nowhere was the message to me, "If you want wealth and security you should go out and earn it." <---this is my message to both my kids. Make it happen for yourself and don't look to others for the things you want in life.
-
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.
The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so).
It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.
Yeah, I honestly don't get this. My friends growing up never talked about women this way. There was no "locker room" talk. We had girls we liked and would talk about them (and not in a really explicit way either) but even when my hormones were going crazy I never felt that way about women. I think it might be partly generational and cultural, moreso than biological, with a shift taking place over the last few decades. Or maybe it is partly biological and there are some underlying factors. Of course one look at the sex industry would suggest otherwise - it's booming with men of all ages enjoying it generously. Which to me says that men are more-or-less the same as they always were, even if they appear much more refined on the most visible layers. Only now, perhaps, we are being held to the same standards of self-repression that women have known for centuries.
I'm quoting your post here because it kind of hits on what I keep thinking back to reading this last page. I would suggest that the tendency to objectify women has gone back thousands of years, be it prehistoric man or Eve getting us tossed the hell out of Eden. That to me suggests biological/instinctive. Or perhaps just thousands of years of conditioning. The important thing here, in my opinion, is that over the last however many thousands of years we're evolving right on out of that mentality. This won't be of any comfort to the women who feel they've been objectified, and it's no defense to that objectification, but I think it's reasonable to recognize that things have improved and are continuing to improve. I'm not sure that simply calling it a character flaw that somebody hasn't evolved quite as fast as we'd like is entirely fair. Societal change, which is what we're talking about here, is glacial in its progress.
Here's my other problem. Don't some women want to be objectified at times, and how are we defining objectification? This seems to me one of those nebulous things where different people will have different takes on what is or is not appropriate, and simply defaulting to the LCD will exclude the majority of women. By way of petty example, if I'm driving down the street and I see a pretty girl jogging and say to myself "wow, great ass," isn't that objectifying her? It's reducing a living breathing human to secondary sexual characteristic that happened to catch my attention. Would all women necessarily have a problem with people appreciating their better bits?
edit: Partially ninja'd by Harmony, but I'm not revising my post. :lol
-
Also, Sex is a natural process that everything does to reproduce and multiply. Some are asexual and can reproduce by splicing itself and creating basically a clone of itself.
No to nitpick, but that's not what asexual reproduction is. I believe you're thinking of cellular mitosis. Many large creatures such as certain species of sharks reproduce asexually. They're not splicing themselves in two. They carry the offspring to terms and deliver them at birth, they just don't need gametes from two different individuals to get pregnant.
Yeah, that's what I meant.
-
Some of these things sound like rules, and I don't see how these rules can be one size fits all.
I'm not seeing where anyone said that. ???
No one did, you're right; I really meant that literally, that "it's not been said but I'm struggling to not hear it as if it sounds like...". I'm not suggesting I'm right. I'm trying to get across that this is a rickety boat in uncertain seas for me.
-
Oh I have no doubt that men can feel objectified sexually too. I also have no doubt that some people ENJOY feeling objectified. I was making a comment on how commonplace it can be for women moreso than for men.
I was going to respond along similar lines before I got to your post. Yeah, it happens to men. But talking relative numbers, it happens far, FAR more often in the direction of mean objectifying women than vice versa. That has been a societal problem for as long as there have been societies, unfortunately.
-
Which is ironic and counter productive. If the "self-repression" was so healthy and effective, we wouldn't be where we are.
Totally. I would say there are plenty of issues related to these topics now, they're just manifesting differently than they did before and going unaddressed.
I'm quoting your post here because it kind of hits on what I keep thinking back to reading this last page. I would suggest that the tendency to objectify women has gone back thousands of years, be it prehistoric man or Eve getting us tossed the hell out of Eden. That to me suggests biological/instinctive. Or perhaps just thousands of years of conditioning. The important thing here, in my opinion, is that over the last however many thousands of years we're evolving right on out of that mentality. This won't be of any comfort to the women who feel they've been objectified, and it's no defense to that objectification, but I think it's reasonable to recognize that things have improved and are continuing to improve. I'm not sure that simply calling it a character flaw that somebody hasn't evolved quite as fast as we'd like is entirely fair. Societal change, which is what we're talking about here, is glacial in its progress.
There has definitely been a change in societal norms but I wouldn't rule out a biological change too. In addition to dietary and lifestyle changes there's the whole rabbit's hole of fetal testosterone levels and other breaking discoveries that I know I'm personally not prepared to dive into here, but I suffice to say I would not be surprised if a whole range of social and biological things provide a great deal of influence on attraction and how it will manifest itself going forward.
-
Not that what I'm about to say is a negative but reading Skeever's post reminded me that women are much more aggressive in their driving then 15 years ago. I never saw a female with a lead foot. Now so many girls pass me on the highway I think I'm getting old. :lol
-
I think it's you! ;D
I drive fast, but when I met my wife, she drove wicked fast, it was hard to keep up. But now she drives like an old lady. Even worse, she's an awful passenger, bracing for an accident at every turn.
-
My x was a fast driver, I don't really recall any shift in the females on the road. I think a lot of people generally drive faster these days though including myself.
-
Off topic, what do you guys consider "fast driving"? is it 5mph above speed limit? 10mph? 20? Anything under 90 is slow?
-
My x was a fast driver, I don't really recall any shift in the females on the road. I think a lot of people generally drive faster these days though including myself.
Yeah, everyone except Joe.. and my wife.
-
Off topic, what do you guys consider "fast driving"? is it 5mph above speed limit? 10mph? 20? Anything under 90 is slow?
For me, it's context specific. If it's on a stretch of 2-lane country road with poor visibility, 5 MPH over can be "too fast." On an open stretch of freeway with light traffic, it can be...a lot faster than that.
-
Honestly, in some circumstances, the limit can be too fast. People who drive 70 mph in the rain are asking for trouble IMO.
-
Off topic, what do you guys consider "fast driving"? is it 5mph above speed limit? 10mph? 20? Anything under 90 is slow?
Completely relative to your surroundings. In CT, I'd say "fast driving" (assuming highway) is when you start hitting triple digits. I regularly have state troopers come up behind me while I'm doing 20+ over the limit, and I don't even brake. I just signal, lane change, and then let them pass.
-
Off topic, what do you guys consider "fast driving"? is it 5mph above speed limit? 10mph? 20? Anything under 90 is slow?
Most of my daily commute is through residential neighborhoods with narrow streets and cars parked on either side. If I see somebody driving 30 I shake my head. I don't want to hit a dog, or somebody's idiot kid running out between cars. Driving back from South Texas a few weeks ago I hit 120 for a stretch, and averaged 87 for the trip. Most of my driving was between 90-100, and that was solely because I never want to be the fastest driver. This was on the interstate. For part of that trip there's a toll road with a posted limit of 85 and 100 would be the norm.
That reminds me, I need to get my wheels re-balanced.
-
My x was a fast driver, I don't really recall any shift in the females on the road. I think a lot of people generally drive faster these days though including myself.
Yeah, everyone except Joe.. and my wife.
:lol I had a girl give me a dirty look as I was going 85 in the middle lane and she passed me on the left and shot me a "Get out of my way old man" look. :lol I though 85 was fast.
-
I wish we had those 75 or 85 speed limits here, but NJ is notorious for bad driving (I blame the NYers though, not that NJ drivers are good either) so we only get up to 65 and I'd say over 80 you are going fast because at 80 you are going faster than 95% of the vehicles on the road. I drive between 80 and 85 these days. I also like EB's rule of not being the fastest driver on the road. I think this is how I've avoided getting a speeding ticket the last about 18 years even though I am almost always speeding. Also I think driving an innocent looking civic helps avoid the cops.
-
Yeah I was thinking good weather/good visibility driving through the highway.
In NY, most of our highways are 55 or 65 upstate, and the most I do is 75, and that is fast for me. Rarely have I ever gone to 80 or above for a stretch of time.
Residential areas I stick to the limit (25 here in the city).
-
Funny to read the OP and the post above lol. From a personal relationship post to highway speed limits.
-
Funny to read the OP and the post above lol. From a personal relationship post to highway speed limits.
Still about the ladies. :lol
-
Off topic, what do you guys consider "fast driving"? is it 5mph above speed limit? 10mph? 20? Anything under 90 is slow?
Completely relative to your surroundings. In CT, I'd say "fast driving" (assuming highway) is when you start hitting triple digits. I regularly have state troopers come up behind me while I'm doing 20+ over the limit, and I don't even brake. I just signal, lane change, and then let them pass.
100%. I'm a lead foot myself - I'll regularly cruise I-91 at 85 - and I get passed on the regular. Which, of course, makes the dork in the left lane who won't move over that much more dangerous.
-
Off topic, what do you guys consider "fast driving"? is it 5mph above speed limit? 10mph? 20? Anything under 90 is slow?
Most of my daily commute is through residential neighborhoods with narrow streets and cars parked on either side. If I see somebody driving 30 I shake my head. I don't want to hit a dog, or somebody's idiot kid running out between cars. Driving back from South Texas a few weeks ago I hit 120 for a stretch, and averaged 87 for the trip. Most of my driving was between 90-100, and that was solely because I never want to be the fastest driver. This was on the interstate. For part of that trip there's a toll road with a posted limit of 85 and 100 would be the norm.
That reminds me, I need to get my wheels re-balanced.
Yeah, it's about the "dogs" or the "kids". It's the coeds. ;) :) :) :)
-
Off topic, what do you guys consider "fast driving"? is it 5mph above speed limit? 10mph? 20? Anything under 90 is slow?
Completely relative to your surroundings. In CT, I'd say "fast driving" (assuming highway) is when you start hitting triple digits. I regularly have state troopers come up behind me while I'm doing 20+ over the limit, and I don't even brake. I just signal, lane change, and then let them pass.
100%. I'm a lead foot myself - I'll regularly cruise I-91 at 85 - and I get passed on the regular. Which, of course, makes the dork in the left lane who won't move over that much more dangerous.
Can you just drive…..55?
-
I can't
-
Go on, write me up for 125, or post my face wanted dead or alive. Take my license, all that jive, I can't drive 55.
-
Gonna put you in a one two three lock box.
-
Suckers walk, money talks, but it can't touch my three lock box.
I love that album. Second favorite Sam record (Standing Hampton is no. 1).
-
Standing Hampton…1981!!
-
How did we get to the Hamptons?
-
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/QSig1SKKpV5qo/200w.gif?cid=82a1493bol4h1ek3o6ug5cj7czwb6xptf57846b1ua70za0o&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
-
Now that this thread has gone completely off the rails, here’s an update. I told my girlfriend about my plans and she was more upset that I didn’t invite her than that I was hanging out with a single girl. My friend from work was honest with me and said that while she is attracted to me, she respects me and my relationship and won’t make a move. I ended up hanging out with her and it was a great night.
-
Now that this thread has gone completely off the rails, here’s an update. I told my girlfriend about my plans and she was more upset that I didn’t invite her than that I was hanging out with a single girl. My friend from work was honest with me and said that while she is attracted to me, she respects me and my relationship and won’t make a move. I ended up hanging out with her and it was a great night.
That is planting the seed.
-
Now that this thread has gone completely off the rails, here’s an update. I told my girlfriend about my plans and she was more upset that I didn’t invite her than that I was hanging out with a single girl. My friend from work was honest with me and said that while she is attracted to me, she respects me and my relationship and won’t make a move. I ended up hanging out with her and it was a great night.
That is planting the seed.
Nah, that comes later when he’s had a wee too much to drink.
-
Now that this thread has gone completely off the rails, here’s an update. I told my girlfriend about my plans and she was more upset that I didn’t invite her than that I was hanging out with a single girl. My friend from work was honest with me and said that while she is attracted to me, she respects me and my relationship and won’t make a move. I ended up hanging out with her and it was a great night.
That is planting the seed.
Nah, that comes later when he’s had a wee too much to drink.
That's actually watering the seed.
-
The seed wants to be watered.
Also, the beautiful flower he's with is upset and he still went.
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
-
You probably run faster!
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
Welcome to old age.
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
Welcome to old age.
From one King to another..
-
You probably run faster!
It's entirely possible.
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
Welcome to old age.
From one King to another..
:lol nice.
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
I *KNOW* I do. The gas mileage is better when you drive the speed limit.
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
I *KNOW* I do. The gas mileage is better when you drive the speed limit.
A total Chad thing to say.. :lol
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
I *KNOW* I do. The gas mileage is better when you drive the speed limit.
Fuck, so the slower I drive, the more money I save? I better leaving half an hour earlier for work from now on.
-
Leaving work early is never a bad move.
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
I *KNOW* I do. The gas mileage is better when you drive the speed limit.
Fuck, so the slower I drive, the more money I save? I better leaving half an hour earlier for work from now on.
You're such a cheap bastard, you probably will! :D
-
Wait a minute....your girlfriend is upset you didn't invite her and you went anyways?....
Be ready for whenever your girl decides to use this next time you argue. "What about that time you went to hang out with your "girlfriend" without me?"
-
Wait a minute....your girlfriend is upset you didn't invite her and you went anyways?....
Be ready for whenever your girl decides to use this next time you argue. "What about that time you went to hang out with your "girlfriend" without me?"
This is what I came here to say.
This whole thread has become like the 4th of July when your friend says, “Hold my beer. I wanna try something.”
-
Well, this thread went in a totally different direction than I thought it was going :rollin
I just came back to say that the whole "women I'm boinking" mentality didn't really last very long for me. It was confined mostly to my 20's. I met Mrs. NoseHair in 1989 when I was 25 and I haven't boinked anyone else ever since.
I was taught my womanizing skills by a real master. My old man was a genuine asshole and you know how they say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, well, it's very true. His attitude towards women was they were there to cook, clean and provide him with sexual gratification whenever he wanted it. He was a serial cheater who even had an affair with my high school guidance counselor and even made a pass at one of my teenage girlfriends once, so it took some time for me to kind of reprogram my attitude about women. Mrs. NoseHair was very instrumental in that regard.
Today I regret my attitude back then and I regret using women the way I used them. I'd never treat a woman like that now.
I think a lot of us who are "of a certain age" came up in an era when women were expected to cook, clean, make babies and only speak when spoken to. That's how things were around my house and my old man's friends and bandmates were all womanizing, misogynistic douchebag assholes. But back then we thought they were so cool. :facepalm:
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
I *KNOW* I do. The gas mileage is better when you drive the speed limit.
A total Chad thing to say.. :lol
What's gas mileage?
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
I *KNOW* I do. The gas mileage is better when you drive the speed limit.
A total Chad thing to say.. :lol
What's gas mileage?
L/100 km
Or for you Yanks, mpg
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
I *KNOW* I do. The gas mileage is better when you drive the speed limit.
Fuck, so the slower I drive, the more money I save? I better leaving half an hour earlier for work from now on.
You're such a cheap bastard, you probably will! :D
Why do you think I'm trying to get better running? ;D might be able to ditch the car entirely lol.
-
Hmmm....random thought but thinking about it now, I think I drive like an old fart. :(
I *KNOW* I do. The gas mileage is better when you drive the speed limit.
A total Chad thing to say.. :lol
What's gas mileage?
My wife just bought a GMC Sierra, so I don't know what gas mileage is anymore.