DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: JiM-Xtreme on July 13, 2020, 11:24:47 AM
-
We all know what the history books say about these particular events. But of course, different people's accounts can conflict and memories fade over time.
So, if you could pick any event in the DT timeline to be a time-travelling wall fly, so you can hear exactly what was actually said and done... when and where would you go?
Yes, most of these relate to band members leaving/joining because honestly, I think they would be the most interesting. But if you can think of any others, let me know :biggrin:
I would have added Mangini being invited to join as an option, but... well, that one was actually filmed :lol
Couldn't decide about whether to keep the MP one as one or two options, but my understanding was that there were two main "events" relating to his departure. One where he initially proposed taking a hiatus, and a second a week or so later where he actually quit (I think it was a conference call).
Curious to see how many of you out there are as nosy as me about these things...
-
Kevin Moore quitting, the band was young and it was going through their first earth-shattering line-up change (No disrespect to Dominici but LaBrie joining was a godsend), and it was so sudden that I would like to see how it went down.
Then MP leaving, both cases. It's been debated to death over the last 10 years so I'd love to finally know how it all went down once and for all ;D
I didn't pick the Jordan / Derek swap because they've been pretty open about the reasons. Yeah, we'll never know the exact words and Derek's reaction, but the gist is well known, "So, Jordan, we love so much working with you, if we'd offer you to join, would you?" and "Well Derek, we're sad to inform you that we've taken different creative choices and we would like to move forward with another keyboard player. We all loved you, we just think that this is the direction we want to go". MP even commented that they felt horrible to do it via a conference call, but they didn't want him to take a flight just to get fired, my only curiosity would be if they actually made that point to Derek when firing him over the phone.
-
The last two MP quitting options are the most intriguing. The problem is that I suspect the whole thing was more than just two isolated moments in DT history. I voted for MP raising the hiatus event because I suspect that generated a lot of discussion. I suspect the later "I quit" notification was, itself, pretty uneventful.
The other two that I picked were KM quitting and the discussion about JLB. Most of the rest don't interest me at all.
I would have added Mangini being invited to join as an option, but... well, that one was actually filmed :lol
Yeah, but I suspect there was stuff relating to the drummer search that was NOT recorded that would be interesting to see. Some of the interviews I've read with the other candidates hint at some shady things ("shady" might not be the right word, but I can't think of a better word at the moment without going back and finding and re-reading those interviews).
Other things that would be interesting include some of the label-band communication relating to Falling Into Infinity and JP's songwriting session/meeting with Desmond Child.
-
Obviously would love to have known what went on during the-
MP: I’m leaving
DT: Okay bye
MP: JK
DT: ...
Less about the drama, more about the business end; the contracts, financial ownership changing hands, the lawyers etc, how exactly that all worked.
-
Obviously would love to have known what went on during the-
MP: I’m leaving
DT: Okay bye
MP: JK
DT: ...
Less about the drama, more about the business end; the contracts, financial ownership changing hands, the lawyers etc, how exactly that all worked.
The former entertainment lawyer in me would have loved to have been involved in the negotiations that followed MP's departure. E.g., did MP request that DT not perform certain songs (or vice versa)? Were there any non-monetary provisions in the separation agreement? Is MP still getting paid by the DT organization or the labels, or was there a complete buy-out. I'd be curious to know how DT, the organization, is and has been legally set up.
-
Obviously would love to have known what went on during the-
MP: I’m leaving
DT: Okay bye
MP: JK
DT: ...
Less about the drama, more about the business end; the contracts, financial ownership changing hands, the lawyers etc, how exactly that all worked.
The former entertainment lawyer in me would have loved to have been involved in the negotiations that followed MP's departure. E.g., did MP request that DT not perform certain songs (or vice versa)? Were there any non-monetary provisions in the separation agreement? Is MP still getting paid by the DT organization or the labels, or was there a complete buy-out. I'd be curious to know how DT, the organization, is and has been legally set up.
Yeah it’s something never really talked about (and I understand it’s none of our business really).
It would also be a minefield I would think in the event that the door would ever be open for MP to return (which it isn’t, but just saying...it WOULD be a factor).
-
The former entertainment lawyer in me would have loved to have been involved in the negotiations that followed MP's departure. E.g., did MP request that DT not perform certain songs (or vice versa)?
Judging by MP's public reaction to Geoff Tate retaining the rights to perform Mindcrime in its entirety ("I wish I had done that for the Twelve Steps suite") I'd daresay no.
-
Yeah it’s something never really talked about (and I understand it’s none of our business really).
It would also be a minefield I would think in the event that the door would ever be open for MP to return (which it isn’t, but just saying...it WOULD be a factor).
I suspect most of the paperwork stuff would be dreadfully dull for most folks, but there are aspects that I would find very interesting. As far as the separation paperwork setting up a minefield or being a factor if they wanted MP to return, I actually doubt it would. If, for example, he received a full buyout of all rights, then that would stay in place, and he'd only have rights for new material (not any different than MM's situation when he joined).
-
I voted "Other", that is the very first meeting inside the practice room at Berklee.
-
Voted "other". James telling his burger recipees to the rest of the guys and JP telling his BBQ recipies to the rest of the guys during making of DoT.
-
Yeah it’s something never really talked about (and I understand it’s none of our business really).
It would also be a minefield I would think in the event that the door would ever be open for MP to return (which it isn’t, but just saying...it WOULD be a factor).
I suspect most of the paperwork stuff would be dreadfully dull for most folks, but there are aspects that I would find very interesting. As far as the separation paperwork setting up a minefield or being a factor if they wanted MP to return, I actually doubt it would. If, for example, he received a full buyout of all rights, then that would stay in place, and he'd only have rights for new material (not any different than MM's situation when he joined).
If he gave up all rights wouldn’t that get weird on the pre-MM stuff again though? I imagine he’d get publishing on anything going forward as a songwriter but I think the back catalog would probably be a source of conflict if he was a DT member and not getting participation on that. Again, not something that couldn’t be worked out but probably a touchy subject if tensions are already a bit high. Buyout or no buyout, Portnoy doesn’t seem to me like the kinda guy who would want to be second class in the DT organization. Buuuuut maybe he’d take that over nothing at this point.
...and who knows, maybe the back catalog in 2020 generates so little that it’s a non issue.
-
I voted "Other", that is the very first meeting inside the practice room at Berklee.
I would imagine seeing JP and JM first approach MP in the lunch room might be more interesting in terms of conversation, unless you're talking about them jamming together, and even then I doubt it was all that impressive.
While I didn't select other, another one that just came to mind was when they contacted CD after firing him to ask him to do one more gig opening for Marillion. I'd also love to have been a fly on the wall for all the drummer auditions, including the discussions between the band and each of the candidates.
-
I voted "Other", that is the very first meeting inside the practice room at Berklee.
I would imagine seeing JP and JM first approach MP in the lunch room might be more interesting in terms of conversation, unless you're talking about them jamming together, and even then I doubt it was all that impressive.
I'm thinking about the very first jam's end, when/if they realised there was special chemistry at play. I'd love to catch those looks they gave each other.
-
I'd like to be there to see the horrified looks on everyone's face during the first playback of the growling section on A Nightmare To Remember.
-
If he gave up all rights wouldn’t that get weird on the pre-MM stuff again though?
You mean in terms of the way things are now, or are you talking about a hypothetical scenario where MP rejoined the band?
Either way, the answer is no.
At the time of MP's departure, DT, as a business enterprise, presumably had three primary sources of revenue: (1) record sales; (2) touring; and (3) merchandise. There are LOTS of ways things could have been set up, but lets say there were three corporations: (1) DT Enterprises, Inc.; (2) DT Touring, Inc.; and (3) DT Merchandising, Inc. (I'm obviously just making up names). And lets assume that, as of August 2010, each corporation had five shareholders (JM, JP, JR, JLB and MP), each of whom owned a 20% interest. DT Enterprises would have the contract with the record company that obligates it to produce X number of albums over the course of Y number of years, and the record company provides financial consideration based in part of sales. DT Touring contracts for concerts and receives income from promoters. DT Merchandising handles merchandise and receives revenue from sales.
Publishing income is separate, and I assume each individual member has a company to which he has assigned publishing rights and which handles the collection of publishing revenue via ASCAP, BMI, etc. and also from the record companies (possibly via DT Enterprises). Once MP left, there were two primary possibilities. The first is that he gives up all decision making rights in connection with all of the corporations but retains the right to receive distributions on an ongoing basis for product he was involved with. That's messy for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that it carries the potential for regular, intrusive auditing. The second possibility is that some accountant figures out the likely present value of MP's future income stream, and the band entities pay him that amount of money for a full relinquishing of rights. In other words, MP gets a big chunk of cash, and the band has no future obligations to him. It's much cleaner, and I think that's what most bands do unless they don't have the cash for a buyout.
But let's assume there was a buyout and then MP rejoins. First of all, they probably have to go through the same exercise with MM because my understanding is that he became a "full member" of the band (as opposed to someone like Scott Travis in Judas Priest who, despite being the band's drummer longer than all other drummers combined, is only a contract employee). Then as for MP going forward, all you have to do is account separately for new album sales, which is easy since each album (and other recorded product) is typically accounted for separately. MP gets a share of new stuff but not of any sales of product prior to the rejoin. Touring is obviously simple, and merchandise can be structured in a similar way to record sales.
Needless to say, there's a lot of hypothetical and speculation there, but it's not something that's terribly difficult or awkward.
I voted "Other", that is the very first meeting inside the practice room at Berklee.
I would imagine seeing JP and JM first approach MP in the lunch room might be more interesting in terms of conversation, unless you're talking about them jamming together, and even then I doubt it was all that impressive.
I'm thinking about the very first jam's end, when/if they realised there was special chemistry at play. I'd love to catch those looks they gave each other.
I think those would all be interesting, but there are a lot of moments there -- probably relatively few of them all that interesting on their own, but being a fly on the wall for all of their time at Berklee would be pretty cool. Use your time machine to go back and take the place of a professor who tries to steer JP away from rock/metal and into jazz or who tries to convince MP that JM is toxic and that he shouldn't want anything to do with him or, on the day that JP and JM first noticed MP, directs the two Johns away from that room so that they never see MP practicing. Sorry...got carried away there. :biggrin:
-
I'd like to be there to see the horrified looks on everyone's face during the first playback of the growling section on A Nightmare To Remember.
Doubt there were any horrified looks since you can be sure it was discussed a lot before MP started trying to do them. Still don't understand why JL couldn't have just done them in his "Awake" voice (kinda like what he did on the last tour), but whatever.
Another pair of events that would've been interesting to witness would've been the recordings of IaW and ACoS, both with Prater.
Use your time machine to go back and take the place of a professor who tries to steer JP away from rock/metal and into jazz or who tries to convince MP that JM is toxic and that he shouldn't want anything to do with him or, on the day that JP and JM first noticed MP, directs the two Johns away from that room so that they never see MP practicing. Sorry...got carried away there. :biggrin:
That's a whole different thing, and I'm pretty sure there's at least one or two "what if" threads buried on this board somewhere...
What if WDaDU had been properly mixed initially? What if they would've stuck with John Hendricks, Steve Stone or Chris Cintron as Charlie's replacement? What if they never got their break with PMU on the radio? What if JL would have never gotten food poisoning in Cuba? What if Kevin Gilbert hadn't died and produced DT's fourth album? What if they would've kept DS in the band beyond 1998? What if they would've booted JL at the end of 2002? What if MP got the hiatus he was asking for? What if TA would have been a complete success with DT's fanbase and many more became fans because of that album? So many variables that we'll never know the answer to unless the TV show Sliders becomes a reality.... :biggrin:
-
What if WDaDU had been properly mixed initially?
What's wrong with the mix on WDADU. The bass sound is better than most of DT's albums. Regardless, it would still have Charlie, so....
What if Kevin Gilbert hadn't died and produced DT's fourth album?
The guy from Racer X? I mean it would still be the same mostly mediocre songs.
What if they would've kept DS in the band beyond 1998?
That would be bad.
What if they would've booted JL at the end of 2002? What if MP got the hiatus he was asking for?
Depends on who the replacement would have been.
-
The last two MP quitting options are the most intriguing. The problem is that I suspect the whole thing was more than just two isolated moments in DT history. I voted for MP raising the hiatus event because I suspect that generated a lot of discussion. I suspect the later "I quit" notification was, itself, pretty uneventful.
Agreed. I'm pretty sure in the second conversation the four guys agreed to stick to their guns and ask him not to quit but not budge on the hiatus thing.
Other things that would be interesting include some of the label-band communication relating to Falling Into Infinity and JP's songwriting session/meeting with Desmond Child.
A lot of people forget (or don't know) that this was probably a more contentious time for the band than any other, arguably more than when Portnoy quit since the other four knew they would carry on. In 98, the band was very fractured and Mike said only one other person would normally vote with him. I always suspected it was JLB because according to Lifting Shadows, Mike and James were super close during that time period. I'm sure John and John voted together and I suspect Derek voted with them because he was probably more interested in being a little more mainstream.
-
Very interesting thread! :tup
About all the paperwork/legal stuff for the MP split in 2010, I remember there were rumors of MP filing lawsuit towards DT. There wasn't such thing at the end, but during that speculation time MP posted something along the lines of "I just can't comment on all the things that are happening right now", which didn't help to put those rumors down. My bet is that the legal issues were a bit messy initally but they were finally able to reach an agreement that worked for everybody.
As for the question in the OP, I'd love to witness the ADTOE writing sessions to see if they actually tried to use IAW as a template or if everything was just a huge coincidence :corn
-
What if WDaDU had been properly mixed initially?
What's wrong with the mix on WDADU. The bass sound is better than most of DT's albums. Regardless, it would still have Charlie, so....
CD may not be the best DT vocalist, but he still does well on WDaDU. Then again, that was my first DT album, so my perspective is different from most others. The muddy, flat mix is what bugs me the most.
What if Kevin Gilbert hadn't died and produced DT's fourth album?
The guy from Racer X? I mean it would still be the same mostly mediocre songs.
Nope - that's Paul Gilbert. Kevin Gilbert was the guy who did Toy Matinee and released several solo albums. He sounds like he was much more eclectic and far less mainstream that Caveman.
What if they would've kept DS in the band beyond 1998?
That would be bad.
I beg to differ on that, given that FII was not solely DS's fault. Given the opportunity to stretch out to his limits, I think album #5 - which would've still been Metropolis part II - would have been different from SFaM, but still far superior to FII. The rehearsal tape of the original M2 (on the FII demos) has some pretty cool parts that were likely from DS that didn't make it to SFaM.
About all the paperwork/legal stuff for the MP split in 2010, I remember there were rumors of MP filing lawsuit towards DT. There wasn't such thing at the end, but during that speculation time MP posted something along the lines of "I just can't comment on all the things that are happening right now", which didn't help to put those rumors down.
I hope that Stads, pg1067 or someone else with a legal background can chime in, but I am under the impression from other situations that to get the ball rolling with the legal processes in some cases, it requires the initial stages of a lawsuit being filed, or something to that effect. Someone who's in the know, feel free to clarify or correct me.
As for the question in the OP, I'd love to witness the ADTOE writing sessions to see if they actually tried to use IAW as a template or if everything was just a huge coincidence
Good call - I second this!
-
As for the question in the OP, I'd love to witness the ADTOE writing sessions to see if they actually tried to use IAW as a template or if everything was just a huge coincidence :corn
I think they definitively did, 4 songs templates from the same album is too much of a coincidence or a subliminal self influence, what would be curious to know were the actual reasons - if they did it, it's not that the only reason was "We have only one chance, literally rewriting Images and Words, let's get into it", for all we know it was just an exercise in style or a thought experiment that they tried just for the fun of it, and then they were surprised by the results.
It's not that, after all, they stuck religiously to it - otherwise, they would have vetoed Jordan's piano intro for Lost Not Forgotten because Under a Glass Moon doesn't have one ;D
Other "fly on the wall moment" - I'd be curious to see them realizing that The Astonishing had mixed results with the fanbase, and if they all anticipated it and accepted it gracefully, or if they were "hurt" by it.
-
Definitely watching Portnoy and Sherinian get let go :)
Then watching the entirety of recording the Octavarium album.
-
What if Kevin Gilbert hadn't died and produced DT's fourth album?
The guy from Racer X? I mean it would still be the same mostly mediocre songs.
Nope - that's Paul Gilbert. Kevin Gilbert was the guy who did Toy Matinee and released several solo albums. He sounds like he was much more eclectic and far less mainstream that Caveman.
I think they have Shirley to thank because it's his production that saves FII. It sure as hell ain't the songs.
-
As for the question in the OP, I'd love to witness the ADTOE writing sessions to see if they actually tried to use IAW as a template or if everything was just a huge coincidence :corn
I think they definitively did, 4 songs templates from the same album is too much of a coincidence or a subliminal self influence, what would be curious to know were the actual reasons - if they did it, it's not that the only reason was "We have only one chance, literally rewriting Images and Words, let's get into it", for all we know it was just an exercise in style or a thought experiment that they tried just for the fun of it, and then they were surprised by the results.
Very interesting suggestion! Although personally, I highly doubt that it was their explicit intention, mainly because JP has specifically denied it in at least one interview. Whilst they were undoubtedly trying to emulate a classic DT vibe in making that album, and probably did listen to the early albums in order to try and get into that mindset, I just don't think they would go so far as to actually make it a plan to base that whole album off the I&W song charts as some have speculated. JP doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would deny it if there was any truth to it at all.
Other "fly on the wall moment" - I'd be curious to see them realizing that The Astonishing had mixed results with the fanbase, and if they all anticipated it and accepted it gracefully, or if they were "hurt" by it.
Similarly, I wonder what the other guys' initial reaction to the concept would have been like when JP pitched it to them (I don't know whether this would have been a band meeting, email or whatever...)
I voted "Other", that is the very first meeting inside the practice room at Berklee.
Also interesting, I did think of putting this as an option actually :)
-
As for the question in the OP, I'd love to witness the ADTOE writing sessions to see if they actually tried to use IAW as a template or if everything was just a huge coincidence :corn
I think they definitively did, 4 songs templates from the same album is too much of a coincidence or a subliminal self influence, what would be curious to know were the actual reasons - if they did it, it's not that the only reason was "We have only one chance, literally rewriting Images and Words, let's get into it", for all we know it was just an exercise in style or a thought experiment that they tried just for the fun of it, and then they were surprised by the results.
Very interesting suggestion! Although personally, I highly doubt that it was their explicit intention, mainly because JP has specifically denied it in at least one interview. Whilst they were undoubtedly trying to emulate a classic DT vibe in making that album, and probably did listen to the early albums in order to try and get into that mindset, I just don't think they would go so far as to actually make it a plan to base that whole album off the I&W song charts as some have speculated. JP doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would deny it if there was any truth to it at all.
Didn't he blatantly rip off some Korean manga for ITPoE without giving any sort of credit? I think JP is pretty honest/genuine overall, but he's also good at deflecting any sort of inquiries into stuff like that by keeping silent or giving sanitized "political" answers
-
I've been thinking about this, and I like Indiscipline's idea about being at Berklee.
But I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall for the discussions that JP, JR, and JM had when MP told them he wanted a break.
They had to have come to a consensus before they went back to MP and, I would've loved to have heard those deliberations.
-
The MP leaving items, because that's the most drama.
-
About all the paperwork/legal stuff for the MP split in 2010, I remember there were rumors of MP filing lawsuit towards DT. There wasn't such thing at the end
Well...yes and no. The process of filing a lawsuit in New York is a bit different than it is in most other U.S. states. In most states (and in federal court), a lawsuit is initiated by the plaintiff filing with the court a document called a complaint or petition. The filing of the complaint triggers a bunch of deadlines, and the plaintiff will serve the complaint on the defendant(s), who will then file an answer to the complaint, and then things go from there. In New York, the process starts by the plaintiff filing a document called a "summons with notice," which looks a lot like a lawsuit and even contains a brief statement of the case. The plaintiff does not immediately file a complaint but will prepare and serve the complaint with the docket number obtained from the court, along with the summons. Depending on if and how the defendant(s) respond to the complaint, the complaint may subsequently get filed with the court.
MP absolutely DID file a summons with notice and obtain a case number (I'm looking at it on my screen as I type this because it's publicly available -- Mike Portnoy v. John Petrucci, John Myung, James LaBrie, Jordan Rudess, Ytse Jams, Inc. and Infinity Tours, Inc.), and this is what was reported publicly as MP filing a lawsuit. The problem is that no one (at least that I'm aware) who reported this understood or reported about the real significance of what MP did. MP and/or his lawyers, who did understand the significance, simply countered the news by saying that no lawsuit had been filed. Obviously, they worked things out before it went beyond that, and the case was eventually disposed of by way of a document called a stipulation of discontinuance.
What if Kevin Gilbert hadn't died and produced DT's fourth album?
The guy from Racer X? I mean it would still be the same mostly mediocre songs.
Nope - that's Paul Gilbert. Kevin Gilbert was the guy who did Toy Matinee. . . .
Oh...I dig that album. Was he in line to produce FII? I don't think the production of the Toy Matinee album would have suited DT at all.
What if they would've kept DS in the band beyond 1998?
That would be bad.
I beg to differ on that, given that FII was not solely DS's fault. Given the opportunity to stretch out to his limits, I think album #5 - which would've still been Metropolis part II - would have been different from SFaM, but still far superior to FII. The rehearsal tape of the original M2 (on the FII demos) has some pretty cool parts that were likely from DS that didn't make it to SFaM.
I don't disagree with the stuff I highlighted (except that I think it's speculation that album #5 would have been Met2). Honestly, my "that would be bad" comment has little to do with DS and more to do with the massive improvement that JR brought to the band. Album #5 -- whether it WAS Met2 or simply included a song called Met2 -- would have been VERY different from SFAM, and we likely never would have gotten SDOIT.
As for the question in the OP, I'd love to witness the ADTOE writing sessions to see if they actually tried to use IAW as a template or if everything was just a huge coincidence
Good call - I second this!
Concur. Me too!
Didn't he blatantly rip off some Korean manga for ITPoE without giving any sort of credit? I think JP is pretty honest/genuine overall, but he's also good at deflecting any sort of inquiries into stuff like that by keeping silent or giving sanitized "political" answers
Yup. Also, many of the lines from his parts of the song SDOIT were almost verbatim from some sort of psychology book.
-
As for the question in the OP, I'd love to witness the ADTOE writing sessions to see if they actually tried to use IAW as a template or if everything was just a huge coincidence :corn
I think they definitively did, 4 songs templates from the same album is too much of a coincidence or a subliminal self influence, what would be curious to know were the actual reasons - if they did it, it's not that the only reason was "We have only one chance, literally rewriting Images and Words, let's get into it", for all we know it was just an exercise in style or a thought experiment that they tried just for the fun of it, and then they were surprised by the results.
Very interesting suggestion! Although personally, I highly doubt that it was their explicit intention, mainly because JP has specifically denied it in at least one interview. Whilst they were undoubtedly trying to emulate a classic DT vibe in making that album, and probably did listen to the early albums in order to try and get into that mindset, I just don't think they would go so far as to actually make it a plan to base that whole album off the I&W song charts as some have speculated. JP doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would deny it if there was any truth to it at all.
Didn't he blatantly rip off some Korean manga for ITPoE without giving any sort of credit? I think JP is pretty honest/genuine overall, but he's also good at deflecting any sort of inquiries into stuff like that by keeping silent or giving sanitized "political" answers
I know what you mean, presumably if you asked him directly he would probably say something along the lines of "being heavily inspired" by that genre of fiction. Whether the manga simply had an unconscious influence on the storyline he was going for or whether he actually intended to use it as a reference to base his lyrics on is a question only he would know the answer to. Which is kind of what this thread's all about :lol But if you ask me, I think the man has far too much integrity to ever "blatantly rip something off" with the specific intent of doing so. I bold that last part because I know from personal experience it's all too possible to write something, only to later realise it has similarities to something that inspired you. Unintentional ripping off, if you like. Which I think is probably what also happened when writing the intro to BMU,BMD... :lol
-
I love the drama as much as everyone but honestly I'd like to choose the boring answer and be present for the writing of the songs in the Images (and pre-Images)-Awake era. If I have to pick specific moments, here they are:
1) The writing of SDV.
2) The writing of the "big songs" in the Images era - LTL, TTT, Metropolis, ACoS. This is cheating because all of these took years but I really don't care :lol
3) The writing of Lie. I'd settle to hear that demo of Lie MP's mentioned somewhere with KM on lead vocals. Basically the one reason I hope MP could rejoin the band one day is to hear all that leftover stuff :rollin
4) The writing of Surrounded; who was it that decided to arrange the instruments in the intro that way? Obviously, KM wrote the song, but what makes it a straight up tribute to Father To Son is the way the guitars and the drums come in.
5) The writing of the rest of the KM songs.
6) Everything else.
-
About all the paperwork/legal stuff for the MP split in 2010, I remember there were rumors of MP filing lawsuit towards DT. There wasn't such thing at the end
Well...yes and no. The process of filing a lawsuit in New York is a bit different than it is in most other U.S. states. In most states (and in federal court), a lawsuit is initiated by the plaintiff filing with the court a document called a complaint or petition. The filing of the complaint triggers a bunch of deadlines, and the plaintiff will serve the complaint on the defendant(s), who will then file an answer to the complaint, and then things go from there. In New York, the process starts by the plaintiff filings a document called a "summons with notice," which looks a lot like a lawsuit and even contains a brief statement of the case. The plaintiff does not immediately file a complaint but will prepare and serve the complaint with the docket number obtained from the court, along with the summons. Depending on if and how the defendant(s) respond to the complaint, the complaint may subsequently get filed with the court.
MP absolutely DID file a summons with notice and obtain a case number (I'm looking at it on my screen as I type this because it's publicly available -- Mike Portnoy v. John Petrucci, John Myung, James LaBrie, Jordan Rudess, Ytse James, Inc. and Infinity Tours, Inc.), and this is what was reported publicly as MP filing a lawsuit. The problem is that no one (at least that I'm aware) who reported this understood or reported about the real significance of what MP did. MP and/or his lawyers, who did understand the significance, simply countered the news by saying that no lawsuit had been filed. Obviously, they worked things out before it went beyond that, and the case was eventually disposed of by way of a document called a stipulation of discontinuance.
Fascinating.
As for the bolded, I didn't know they named it after James :rollin
I know what you mean, presumably if you asked him directly he would probably say something along the lines of "being heavily inspired" by that genre of fiction. Whether the manga simply had an unconscious influence on the storyline he was going for or whether he actually intended to use it as a reference to base his lyrics on is a question only he would know the answer to. Which is kind of what this thread's all about :lol But if you ask me, I think the man has far too much integrity to ever "blatantly rip something off" with the specific intent of doing so. I bold that last part because I know from personal experience it's all too possible to write something, only to later realise it has similarities to something that inspired you. Unintentional ripping off, if you like. Which I think is probably what also happened when writing the intro to BMU,BMD... :lol
More like the whole song :lol but the same thing (or even worse) happened under MP with Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome by Muse.
If I have to pick specific moments, here they are:
TL;DR: Kevin Moore :biggrin:
-
TL;DR: Kevin Moore :biggrin:
- my entire presence on this subforum
-
Oh...I dig that album. Was he in line to produce FII? I don't think the production of the Toy Matinee album would have suited DT at all.
Kevin had a few conversations with MP over the phone before he died. So it wasn't definite, but that was the direction things were going in.
What if they would've kept DS in the band beyond 1998?
That would be bad.
I beg to differ on that, given that FII was not solely DS's fault. Given the opportunity to stretch out to his limits, I think album #5 - which would've still been Metropolis part II - would have been different from SFaM, but still far superior to FII. The rehearsal tape of the original M2 (on the FII demos) has some pretty cool parts that were likely from DS that didn't make it to SFaM.
I don't disagree with the stuff I highlighted (except that I think it's speculation that album #5 would have been Met2). Honestly, my "that would be bad" comment has little to do with DS and more to do with the massive improvement that JR brought to the band. Album #5 -- whether it WAS Met2 or simply included a song called Met2 -- would have been VERY different from SFAM, and we likely never would have gotten SDOIT.
Honestly, I don't believe it's really speculation, because I went to the very first Planet X gig in May of 1999 (at a super small place) and overheard DS talking about it with somebody between the two sets. Of course, this was after he was booted from the band, but unless MP had been talking to him during that time, the only way he would've known about it was if he was still in the band when the plans were first being made.
Regarding the IaW/ADToE song structures, I remember speaking with him after the San Diego show in 2011 and after talking a bit about Rush and their (then) current Time Machine tour, I asked him about the similar song structures, and he jokingly replied something to the effect that actually IaW was influenced by ADToE, kind of connecting it back to what we were talking with Rush's tour. So he definitely deflected the question then; if there wasn't any truth to it, I would imagine he would have made it clear that it wasn't the case at all.
-
Regarding the IaW/ADToE song structures, I remember speaking with him after the San Diego show in 2011 and after talking a bit about Rush and their (then) current Time Machine tour, I asked him about the similar song structures, and he jokingly replied something to the effect that actually IaW was influenced by ADToE, kind of connecting it back to what we were talking with Rush's tour. So he definitely deflected the question then; if there wasn't any truth to it, I would imagine he would have made it clear that it wasn't the case at all.
Hmm... interesting. Shame he's not on Cameo, then we could put this question to him and put it to bed once and for all :lol
-
Regarding the IaW/ADToE song structures, I remember speaking with him after the San Diego show in 2011 and after talking a bit about Rush and their (then) current Time Machine tour, I asked him about the similar song structures, and he jokingly replied something to the effect that actually IaW was influenced by ADToE, kind of connecting it back to what we were talking with Rush's tour. So he definitely deflected the question then; if there wasn't any truth to it, I would imagine he would have made it clear that it wasn't the case at all.
Hmm... interesting. Shame he's not on Cameo, then we could put this question to him and put it to bed once and for all :lol
But Jordan and James are! ;) (MM is too, but he wasn't part of the writing)
-
Fascinating.
As for the bolded, I didn't know they named it after James :rollin
Yaarrr!!!! :yarr
-
Being at Bear Tracks while recording I&W. Which would also mean seeing MP getting frustrated by David Prater.
-
Being at Bear Tracks while recording I&W. Which would also mean seeing MP getting frustrated by David Prater.
In case you don't know, there are about 75 minutes worth of "making of I&W" videos up on YouTube. Here's a link to the first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thvFCQjuGMo&list=FL3rjktGL2mDM8lsvkjqi0FQ&index=86&t=4s
-
Being a Kevin Moore fan, I did choose KM leaving.
-
About all the paperwork/legal stuff for the MP split in 2010, I remember there were rumors of MP filing lawsuit towards DT. There wasn't such thing at the end
Well...yes and no. The process of filing a lawsuit in New York is a bit different than it is in most other U.S. states. In most states (and in federal court), a lawsuit is initiated by the plaintiff filing with the court a document called a complaint or petition. The filing of the complaint triggers a bunch of deadlines, and the plaintiff will serve the complaint on the defendant(s), who will then file an answer to the complaint, and then things go from there. In New York, the process starts by the plaintiff filing a document called a "summons with notice," which looks a lot like a lawsuit and even contains a brief statement of the case. The plaintiff does not immediately file a complaint but will prepare and serve the complaint with the docket number obtained from the court, along with the summons. Depending on if and how the defendant(s) respond to the complaint, the complaint may subsequently get filed with the court.
MP absolutely DID file a summons with notice and obtain a case number (I'm looking at it on my screen as I type this because it's publicly available -- Mike Portnoy v. John Petrucci, John Myung, James LaBrie, Jordan Rudess, Ytse Jams, Inc. and Infinity Tours, Inc.), and this is what was reported publicly as MP filing a lawsuit. The problem is that no one (at least that I'm aware) who reported this understood or reported about the real significance of what MP did. MP and/or his lawyers, who did understand the significance, simply countered the news by saying that no lawsuit had been filed. Obviously, they worked things out before it went beyond that, and the case was eventually disposed of by way of a document called a stipulation of discontinuance.
Fascinating. I remember thinking it might be something like this, that the average person wouldn't get. MP was adamant that he "did not sue the band!!!!" and left it at that. Maybe he had to keep it vague for legal reasons but I remember his emotional response, complete with a million exclamation points indicated to me that he totally sued the band.
-
Fascinating. I remember thinking it might be something like this, that the average person wouldn't get. MP was adamant that he "did not sue the band!!!!" and left it at that. Maybe he had to keep it vague for legal reasons but I remember his emotional response, complete with a million exclamation points indicated to me that he totally sued the band.
MP's full statement on the issue was, "First of all, I did NOT sue them....and second of all, I DESPERATELY tried to discuss matters with them personally to avoid ANYTHING LIKE THIS and yet THEY insisted on ONLY using lawyers...so my lawyers filed those papers (BACK IN APRIL mind you) as that was the position they chose to take...if the band wouldve talked to me, it wouldve NEVER come to that!!!
All that aside, this was 6 months ago....so yes indeed, we have all moved on since then...
I'm still really not allowed to discuss any of this publically, but I feel everybody's hasty and half-truth filled witchhunt yesterday deserves to be addressed to help at least try to clear my name and reputation that was so wrongly tainted by yesterday's false conclusions..."
You can find it on p. 6 of this thread at the MP forum (my own contemporary analysis of the situation appears on p. 5): https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?&m=2710576&high=did%2csue&mpage=6 .
The biggest problem as I recall was that everyone was reacting viscerally to something published by Blabbermouth, and MP's departure from the band was still only a year in the past and was a wound that hadn't healed for a lot of fans.
So...did MP "sue" DT? I think he did, but I can see a reasonable argument that merely filing the summons with notice was a preliminary step to suing and, by itself, wasn't actually "suing" (there being no universally accepted definition of what it actually means to "sue" someone). MP certainly was not well-versed in the nuances of civil procedure, and the legal action never got beyond a VERY preliminary stage, so I have and had no problem with him claiming otherwise (except that he should have kept his mouth shut completely -- he mentioned a few times in the thread that he wasn't legally allowed to discuss details, but his lawyers unfortunately couldn't convince him not even to speak in broad strokes). Blabbermouth's (and other "media" outlets') failure to understand and/or report on those nuances created a lot of friction among the fans and, as a result of MP's close involvement with the fans via his forum, created friction between him and some fans also.
-
So PG, would you mind speculating a little bit for a layman like myself? I’m just curious about what it was that MP would be suing them over. Like, would it be trying to get some kind of lump sum? Or maybe a royalty on a certain number of albums after he was out? In your experience, what would have been plausible? You had said in the MP Forum post that it was too late in the game to try and take the name, so I’m assuming it wouldn’t have been that.
-
So PG, would you mind speculating a little bit for a layman like myself? I’m just curious about what it was that MP would be suing them over. Like, would it be trying to get some kind of lump sum? Or maybe a royalty on a certain number of albums after he was out? In your experience, what would have been plausible? You had said in the MP Forum post that it was too late in the game to try and take the name, so I’m assuming it wouldn’t have been that.
My names not PG but I think you're onto something. I bet it was basically like, "Since I helped build this I am either entitled to a yearly royalty or continuous payment or a payout."
Who knows what they settled on? I'm sure he doesn't continue to get money from them except for publishing royalties. I also remember he wasn't allowed to use the DT logo in any advertising material for himself. I think they have gotten lax with that since he was selling his 50th birthday party shirts with a DT logo but I remember at the time he had to take down all copyrighted stuff from his website.
-
So PG, would you mind speculating a little bit for a layman like myself? I’m just curious about what it was that MP would be suing them over. Like, would it be trying to get some kind of lump sum? Or maybe a royalty on a certain number of albums after he was out? In your experience, what would have been plausible? You had said in the MP Forum post that it was too late in the game to try and take the name, so I’m assuming it wouldn’t have been that.
Rather than write another long post myself, let me direct you back to the thread at MP's site. There's a LOT of garbage in that thread, but go to page 2 and take a look at post number 70 by Paul Sommer. In that post, he quotes verbatim from the "Notice" section of the summons. It's worth reading The allegations that likely would have been the basis of a complaint are in there. In short: (1) defendants "wrongfully excluded" MP from the band; and (2)/(3) defendants are wrongfully using the band name in connection with the recording of an album and a promotional tour. MP was seeking declaratory and injunctive relief (essentially a court order preventing DT from doing what was alleged) and whatever monetary damages were found to be appropriate.
Next, take a look at Stadler's post #95 on p. 3 of the thread. He explained that "wrongfully excluded" is a bit of a term of art. I don't necessarily agree with some of Stadler's admitted speculation about MP's motives, but I think he was mostly right, which I think is reflected in my post #188 on p. 5 of the thread. In a nutshell, MP's claims likely were based on various contracts between the band members and the organizing documents of the two corporations, none of which we ever have seen or likely ever will see. In particular, a band agreement, if properly drafted, would talk about what would happen upon a member leaving the band (both in terms of rights to the names and trademarks but also in terms of money).
As for MP's ultimate goal, I can only guess, but I assume it would be the most favorable financial package in connection with him giving back his interest in the two corporations (the buyout that I mentioned previously in this thread). My point about being "too late in the game to try and take the name" was that, if he had really wanted the injunctive relief mentioned in the summons, he should (I used the word "would") have filed something before ADTOE was released and the tour started. He certainly COULD HAVE tried to get an injunction on a going forward basis, but I read the fact that nothing had been done earlier or in earnest as a signal that this wasn't his true goal. I also commented about the fact that it was odd that the summons had been filed in April (2011) but did not surface publicly until September (another indication that, by the time of the Blabbermouth article, they were working things out).
-
Appreciated ;D