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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: KevShmev on January 12, 2017, 08:58:29 PM
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By this, I mean musicians who were fortunate enough to end up in a band that hit it big. Not saying these have to be bad musicians, but examples of musicians who were lucky to have the success that they did because of the other members in the band.
Examples:
Michael Anthony - decent bass player and good background singer, but Van Halen would have been big thanks to EVH no matter what.
Ringo Starr - sure, Ringo is not as awful as some think he is, and he inspired a lot of drummers, but ending up with two of the best songwriters ever, and a third who was damn good as well, was pretty damn lucky)
Adam Clayton & Larry Mullen, JR - with all due respect to both, neither would have made a dent anywhere else if not for landing in a band with Bono and The Edge. To their credit, I suspect both know this, which is why U2 has never really had any real drama; they know their places and how lucky they are.
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Kirk Hammet.
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Andrew Ridgeley
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Cliff Williams and Phil Rudd.
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Upon reading the title, I had an inkling that the rhythm section would be the frequent example. True enough :lol
I have to disagree with Ringo. He is integral to the Beatles sound. The Fab Four came to prominence because of pop, almost danceable, tunes, and Ringo's groove is a big part of that. If you listen to other drummers from that genre during that era, there is something different with Ringo's beat and fills, as if they are not exactly on the beat. It was uniquely Ringo because he was a lefty who learned to play on a right handed kitt.
He also handled well the change in the Beatles sound in the later years. A pop drummer who later handled songs with odd signature transitions and the other experimentations of later Beatles.
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Alec John Such
Cliff Williams and Phil Rudd.
Nah, these guys are awesome!
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Liam. Gallagher.
Famous and rich exclusively thanks to his brother. Not once has he been grateful. And without oasis he'd be a nobody or in jail.
All he does is talk shit about the person who got him where he is today.
Ugly. Stupid. Can't sing live.
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Liam. Gallagher.
Famous and rich exclusively thanks to his brother. Not once has he been grateful. And without oasis he'd be a nobody or in jail.
All he does is talk shit about the person who got him where he is today.
Ugly. Stupid. Can't sing live.
That's because he agrees with you
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I get the context of this thread (and love it!) and offer the following:
Ian Hill of Judas Priest
Jeff LeBar of Cinderella
Kirk Hammett of Metallica (yes I know he was mentioned, but we can't mention this enough, can we?)
Rod Evans of Deep Purple (and parlayed a lame-ass career AFTER Purple into a RaRHoF induction!)
Paul Di'Anno of Iron Maiden
Peter Criss of Kiss
Nick Mason of Pink Floyd
Mick Mars of Motley Crue
But I have to say, Ringo doesn't belong anywhere on here. John and Paul have both been effusive over the years that he was the spark. Getting him in - remember, he was older, and a veteran of both the Liverpool and Hamburg scene at that point - was the spark that lit the fuse and made them the hard-ass rock and roll band they were when they started out.
Perosnally I wouldn't put Liam either, though I understand it very well. I saw him in Beady Eye in Philly and even though he only played for one hour, he was SOOOO charismatic, it was amazing. He is a dick, and he is ungrateful, and he is over-rated in the sense that Noel carries that band, but still.
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James Labrie
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How can James LaBrie be lucky when his voice is integral to what Dream Theater turned out to be?
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Peter Criss of Kiss
Oh, so, so much this. To me, he's the worst drummer in a famous band I have ever heard. And from what I've read, has an insanely difficult personality. Talk about being lucky running into probably the only band who would accept him. :lol
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Kirk Hammet.
That was my first thought.
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Adam Clayton & Larry Mullen, JR - with all due respect to both, neither would have made a dent anywhere else if not for landing in a band with Bono and The Edge. To their credit, I suspect both know this, which is why U2 has never really had any real drama; they know their places and how lucky they are.
I agree with this. I was reading about Larry Mullen yesterday and apparently he was talking about how he never developed his bass drum technique from the time he was a teenager
Nick Mason of Pink Floyd
Agree with this one. I read his book Inside Out and it gave me the impression that he was more interested in the idea of being a drummer instead of actually being a drummer.
I'm torn on Kirk Hammet. He seems like he really gives zero fucks about Metallica and the recent making of videos left me feeling like he was in the band to collect a check.
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David Ellefson. I was always amused by his "Making Music Your Business" book when it was clear he just piggy-backed onto Mustaine's talent (though I'll admit I haven't read it so I don't know its actual contents!).
Geoff Tate. Ok, this one might be controversial considering his eventual importance to the early success of QR... but we now know that Tate wasn't at all keen on joining QR and only eventually did so because the EP took off whilst Myth didn't look like ever getting a record deal. Those Myth demos put out on the QR Greatest Hits package are bloody awful and his solo efforts and some of the crap he wrote with his mates that made it onto later QR records have ranged between underwhelming and "oh my god pass me the mind bleach" bad, so had he remained steadfast about not joining QR early on, or had QR lost patience with him earlier and just gone looking for a different singer for their debut album, I don't think he'd have ever had success as a musician.
However, QR might not have been able to find anyone even close to as talented as Tate was and their career may have fizzled out far too soon. And obviously we'd never have had Mindcrime. However, they had complete songwriters in the band without needing Tate and may have gone on to reasonable success anyway - the suspicion is that if Tate wrote melodies for the lyrics he wrote then DeGarmo was largely responsible for shaping them into good melodies!
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Every member of The Rolling Stones, just pick one or all of them. In my mind the single most overrated band ever in the history of music...they, like the Beatles just happened to hit at the right time.
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Every member of The Rolling Stones, just pick one or all of them. In my mind the single most overrated band ever in the history of music...they, like the Beatles just happened to hit at the right time.
I was thinking exactly this for all of The Beatles. But you're right, The Rolling Stones is an even better example.
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Every member of The Rolling Stones, just pick one or all of them. In my mind the single most overrated band ever in the history of music...they, like the Beatles just happened to hit at the right time.
The Beatles just happened to hit at the right time and you are implying that they are just lucky and not talented?
WOW
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I started this thread many years ago no another forum and because I began with Malcolm Young created a shit-storm of epic proportions. People lost their minds at that.. :lol
In any case, the answer's Janick Gers. Rather than just being a cog in the function of a tight machine, he's actually useless and occasionally even a detriment to their sound. And of course Ian Hill is the other obvious pick. Michael Anthony would normally be in the same boat, but contrary to what EVH thinks, his backing vocals were pretty damned important to the finished product.
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I started this thread many years ago no another forum and because I began with Malcolm Young created a shit-storm of epic proportions. People lost their minds at that.. :lol
In any case, the answer's Janick Gers. Rather than just being a cog in the function of a tight machine, he's actually useless and occasionally even a detriment to their sound. And of course Ian Hill is the other obvious pick. Michael Anthony would normally be in the same boat, but contrary to what EVH thinks, his backing vocals were pretty damned important to the finished product.
Good call on Gers. I saw Maiden on a shed tour (Motorhead and Dio opened) and I was standing next to my friend Jim, and up on stage, Dickinson was in back with the flag, waving it like a madman, Dave Murray was soloing so hard his balls fell off, Adrian was head down, carrying the rhythm like a Sherpa climbing Everest.... and Janick Gers was at stage front - wearing an Iron Maiden shirt, which is tres gauche - twirling his guitar around his body like he was, well, Jeff LeBar of Cinderella. Wasn't playing a fucking note. Jim turned to me and said "is he okay? should we call a medic?"
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Every member of The Rolling Stones, just pick one or all of them. In my mind the single most overrated band ever in the history of music...they, like the Beatles just happened to hit at the right time.
I was thinking exactly this for all of The Beatles. But you're right, The Rolling Stones is an even better example.
I will try to say this as civilly as possible, but to dismiss either the Beatles or the Stones of "being in the right place at the right time" is woefully underinformed. The Beatles MADE their time like no other act in history, even including the Elvis.
When you've got artists of the caliber of the Beach Boys (well, Brian Wilson), Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Pink Floyd waiting to see what you do next, to see what the latest angle is, to MAKE the time, it's a hard putt to convince anyone that the Beatles were "of a moment".
It is also ignorant of the fact that the Beatles were a cover band, a pop band, a pot band, an acid band, a prog band, a protest band, a 60's peace band, and a folk band, all in the space of 7 short years and ten albums.
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Every member of The Rolling Stones, just pick one or all of them. In my mind the single most overrated band ever in the history of music...they, like the Beatles just happened to hit at the right time.
The Beatles just happened to hit at the right time and you are implying that they are just lucky and not talented?
WOW
Well yeah they are talented (even the drummer, to some extent). But so are countless of other musicians who are treading new ground musically to this day. They just happened to be recognized by a wider audience at the time. So yeah I would say luck was involved.
Every member of The Rolling Stones, just pick one or all of them. In my mind the single most overrated band ever in the history of music...they, like the Beatles just happened to hit at the right time.
I was thinking exactly this for all of The Beatles. But you're right, The Rolling Stones is an even better example.
I will try to say this as civilly as possible, but to dismiss either the Beatles or the Stones of "being in the right place at the right time" is woefully underinformed. The Beatles MADE their time like no other act in history, even including the Elvis.
Yep, because they got exposed to the main stream audience WHILE being inventive in the musical world. This happens all the time, but without the luck they had, no one would've cared and some other band would've been the "most important band in history" to every single music fan in the world.
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I'm torn on Kirk Hammet. He seems like he really gives zero fucks about Metallica and the recent making of videos left me feeling like he was in the band to collect a check.
Apparently he has had a lot of personal problems lately. Family stuff and one of his friends committed suicide.
Also - I'm no Ki$$ fan - but if Peter Criss is so poor - why does Lars get pretty much ALL the hate ?
Is it because 16 years ago or so he tried to stop people stealing music that was not finished ?
Then everyone went " :angry: You're trying to stop me stealing unfinished music for free ? fuck you ! "
Because trying to stop people hearing a song before it's finished - which was stolen from HQ - makes you a greedy egotistical asshole apparently.
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Yep, because they got exposed to the main stream audience WHILE being inventive in the musical world. This happens all the time, but without the luck they had, no one would've cared and some other band would've been the "most important band in history" to every single music fan in the world.
Well, I suppose in a meta-sense, it's ALL luck, but that's just not accurate. There was very little "luck" involved. They played six hour sets (six hours on stage, with a 15 minute break every hour) for weeks at a time in Hamburg, and word spread back to London and Liverpool about "this band". That's not luck. Maybe meeting George Martin was luck, but Martin seeing them for what they were - incredibly versatile musicians and strong writers - was not "luck". The study that Lennon and (especially) McCartney put in to learning the craft of songwriting - unheard of at the time - was not "luck".
if having someone "like" your music is "luck", then every musician ever was "lucky".
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I'm torn on Kirk Hammet. He seems like he really gives zero fucks about Metallica and the recent making of videos left me feeling like he was in the band to collect a check.
Apparently he has had a lot of personal problems lately. Family stuff and one of his friends committed suicide.
Also - I'm no Ki$$ fan - but if Peter Criss is so poor - why does Lars get pretty much ALL the hate ?
Is it because 16 years ago or so he tried to stop people stealing music that was not finished ?
Then everyone went " :angry: You're trying to stop me stealing unfinished music for free ? fuck you ! "
Because trying to stop people hearing a song before it's finished - which was stolen from HQ - makes you a greedy egotistical asshole apparently.
Nah. Sixteen years ago was when people decided he's a douche. People have always thought he was overrated, and now see that he plainly doesn't care about being a decent drummer anymore.
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They have all been a lot more down to earth and less douchey since therapy.
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Yep, because they got exposed to the main stream audience WHILE being inventive in the musical world. This happens all the time, but without the luck they had, no one would've cared and some other band would've been the "most important band in history" to every single music fan in the world.
Well, I suppose in a meta-sense, it's ALL luck, but that's just not accurate. There was very little "luck" involved. They played six hour sets (six hours on stage, with a 15 minute break every hour) for weeks at a time in Hamburg, and word spread back to London and Liverpool about "this band". That's not luck. Maybe meeting George Martin was luck, but Martin seeing them for what they were - incredibly versatile musicians and strong writers - was not "luck". The study that Lennon and (especially) McCartney put in to learning the craft of songwriting - unheard of at the time - was not "luck".
if having someone "like" your music is "luck", then every musician ever was "lucky".
My sentiments exactly. To call The Beatles lucky is to imply that they did not put in the work. George Martin was impressed with the band not just with the talent but also seeing how much effort the band was putting in coming up with original material, as many pop bands then were using external songwriters.
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Adam Clayton & Larry Mullen, JR - with all due respect to both, neither would have made a dent anywhere else if not for landing in a band with Bono and The Edge. To their credit, I suspect both know this, which is why U2 has never really had any real drama; they know their places and how lucky they are.
First example I thought of even before reading your post (although I was thinking Adam more than Larry, but I don't disagree with including Larry as well). :tup
Jeff LeBar of Cinderella
Hmm. Interesting. I immediately thought of Fred Coury. But I suppose you are right that Jeff fits the bill too. Even though he really became an integral part of the band instantly, he really is easily replaceable. But then again, that is also partly due to the band's own internal dynamics after the split as well. I mean, it seems like it was always really Tom's band from the getgo. But when Michael Kelly Smith was still in the band before they recorded Night Songs, my understanding is that Tom and Michael shared the lead guitar spot, and that Michael may have even had the lion's share. After the split, Tom took it all. And I don't think that is a reflection of Jeff not being capable; he's a VERY good player, and has been from the beginning. That's just how it worked out in terms of band politics.
Mick Mars of Motley Crue
I disagree with that one. Mick has a very distinct style that is part of the band's signature sound. He may not be a flashy, charismatic player, but he has a very distinct style. Now, maybe the argument could be made that the other three members were the image and charisma of the band, and even if they ended up having a different player that would have taken the sound in a slightly different direction, that wouldn't have impacted their success. I don't think I could argue with that (kind of like CC in Poison, perhaps). But I'd be interested in hearing you expand on the idea.
Here's another one, going in a slightly different direction (and I know Cruithne already mentioned him, but I will second it): Ellefson. That isn't to diminish his talent or his contribution to Megadeth one bit. But Mustaine was talented and uniquely driven. He was going to be successful no matter what, or die trying. Whoever he got around him were basically going to be along for the ride. Ellefson was in the right place at the right time to jump onboard, and just being in Megadeth made him a name.
Another: Oz Fox in Stryper. Michael Sweet's vision for their sound and Robert Sweet's vision for their image are what made that band. Whoever they had accompanying them was always going to be secondary. Of course, it didn't hurt that Oz is a really talented vocalist who was really able to help shape the band's signature vocal harmonies, and that he committed to upping his guitar chops when needed. But I think the band could have easily had a revolving door in the second guitar department without anybody really noticing.
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Adam & Larry are a rock solid rhythm section.
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Mick Mars is an interesting one. I have to disagree with Bosk for a couple of reasons. For one, his style wasn't on display during the early years when they found their success. Shout at the Devil was a pretty generic guitar album and the monstrosity that followed, as well. It wasn't until later that his sound became an integral part of the band. Moreover, I don't think their music had anything to do with their success. Early Crue was an image based band more than anything else.
However, I think it's there that MM was actually somewhat important. Having a freak outlier in the band was actually important for that image. I'd certainly consider him deserving of Crue's success based on that.
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Adam & Larry are a rock solid rhythm section.
Oh, totally. But two things in response to that: (1) They were anything but "solid" when the band first formed. As I recall the story, the first time they got together to play, Adam was so bad they basically had to stop, and told him to go practice some more. Thankfully for his sake, he did. But the point is, they had to become "rock solid." They weren't that way from the start. (2) Notwithstanding becoming a "rock solid" rhythm section, I can't help but feel that they are somewhat interchangeable from the standpoint of, if you had a completely different rhythm section in that band from the start, although it might have altered their sound somewhat, it would not have altered it drastically, and the charisma and sound of Bono and The Edge would have carried the band to success no matter what.
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Plus there's the fact that Larry started the band.
Also allegedly they kept Adam because he learned music terms to make it sound like he was better than he was :lol
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:lol I don't remember that, but that's awesome.
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Realistically how many pop rock bands would sound drastically different with a substitute (but competent) bass or drum player? Unless they are key songwriters.
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A lot of bassist names being bandied around. Poor rhythm section players, so unappreciated. :lol
I will come to the defense of Michael Anthony. If his work with Chickenfoot tells us anything, he's not just a simple root note player. It's just that that style of playing is what worked with Van Halen's music with Eddie's busy guitars taking up so much sonic space. Listen to Running with the Devil (which ironically started off with the bass) and imagine if another bass playing style would work.
Is Michael Anthony replaceable? Maybe. But would Van Halen have worked with a more "up front" bassist that is not willing to take the backseat, especially with all those other egos in the band? My reading is that it won't as Michael Anthony seems to be the source of stability in that band. Which is no wonder why they really went nowhere after firing him.
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Bass players you couldn't replace in their bands...
Les Claypool
Geddy Lee
Lemmy
Mike Dirnt to some degree. He also does very recognisable harmonies.
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Many others. John Myung. Chris Squire. Pat Badger. Billy Sheehan. Ben Shepherd. John Deacon. John Paul Jones.
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How could I forget John Paul Jones - probably the most talented member of Led Zep.
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A lot of bassist names being bandied around. Poor rhythm section players, so unappreciated. :lol
I will come to the defense of Michael Anthony. If his work with Chickenfoot tells us anything, he's not just a simple root note player. It's just that that style of playing is what worked with Van Halen's music with Eddie's busy guitars taking up so much sonic space. Listen to Running with the Devil (which ironically started off with the bass) and imagine if another bass playing style would work.
Is Michael Anthony replaceable? Maybe. But would Van Halen have worked with a more "up front" bassist that is not willing to take the backseat, especially with all those other egos in the band? My reading is that it won't as Michael Anthony seems to be the source of stability in that band. Which is no wonder why they really went nowhere after firing him.
Yeah, that's a good point. But I still think he is a valid choice. Eddie's talent and hunger, along with Dave's image and showmanship, would have broken the band huge no matter what, I think.
Here's another I will throw out there that is a bit unique: Vivian Campbell in Def Leppard. A couple of caveats: First off, I know it is kind of easy to shoehorn into this argument basically ANY hired gun brought in to replace a departing member in an already-successful band. That isn't what I am talking about. Second, I know Viv was already successful and had a reputation on his own, which also makes him a bit different and seem to not fit the discussion. But here's the thing that I think makes him fit the discussion: his stock was falling at the time, IMO, since he hadn't really done much after leaving Dio, and the things he did were pretty obscure and not well received. And after he joined Def Lep, although he immediately fit really well into the band, he did almost nothing to contribute to the band's sound or direction, from what I understand. And despite them meandering and floundering in their sound, they have stayed relevant and successful. They continue to get on huge tours and to sell out arenas. But not on the strength of anything they have released since Hysteria. Yeah, there are other bands that fit that description as well. But my point in mentioning Viv/Lep in this thread is that I think he fits the model because he has the benefit of having a long time riding success that he had nothing to do with.
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Yeah, that's a good point. But I still think he is a valid choice. Eddie's talent and hunger, along with Dave's image and showmanship, would have broken the band huge no matter what, I think.
Would they last more than one album though, with EVH, AVH, DLR and a bassist with a bigger ego going at it? :lol
Because of this discussion, I am listening to the Van Halen debut now focusing on Michael Anthony. Wow, he's actually excellent.
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Many bass players are easily replaceable from a musical standpoint. Yes, including the big ones. Pino Paladino can play anything Ox did. At the same time bass players are often vital for the intangibles. The Who was never the same band without Entwistle. Ditto for Metallica who brought in a more talented player but lost the soul of the band. I won't bother going to see Yes anymore without Squire, even though Sherwood will undoubtedly do a fine job.
As for Anthony, if the the argument is that he's important because of his willingness to not play, then I'm calling him lucky. Though I still credit him as being vital for his vocals.
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As for Anthony, if the the argument is that he's important because of his willingness to not play, then I'm calling him lucky. Though I still credit him as being vital for his vocals.
Listen to at least the first album and tell me Anthony is not playing. I am doing it right now. He's not really up front allowing for Eddie's guitar acrobatics to shine. EVH's rhythm guitar work is rarely at the low end and Anthony is giving the songs the oomph that they needed.
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As for Anthony, if the the argument is that he's important because of his willingness to not play, then I'm calling him lucky. Though I still credit him as being vital for his vocals.
Listen to at least the first album and tell me Anthony is not playing. I am doing it right now. He's not really up front allowing for Eddie's guitar acrobatics to shine. EVH's rhythm guitar work is rarely at the low end and Anthony is giving the songs the oomph that they needed.
I think the argument is that most bassists at the time could have easily provided that low ended and oomph, since that's generally what a bassist does.
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As for Anthony, if the the argument is that he's important because of his willingness to not play, then I'm calling him lucky. Though I still credit him as being vital for his vocals.
Listen to at least the first album and tell me Anthony is not playing. I am doing it right now. He's not really up front allowing for Eddie's guitar acrobatics to shine. EVH's rhythm guitar work is rarely at the low end and Anthony is giving the songs the oomph that they needed.
I think the argument is that most bassists at the time could have easily provided that low ended and oomph, since that's generally what a bassist does.
But that criteria would make almost all bassists in a band that hit the big time "lucky" except for bassists (and drummers in that case) who play with styles that call attention to themselves. For me, if a rhythm section of a band contributes "character" to the music, I would say that those musicians earned their due and are not just "lucky". The "lucky" musicians are those who do not actually contribute much character or are sometimes even detrimental to the music.
Which is why the correct answer is Janick Gers. :lol
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Michael Anthony wasn't "lucky", he was an integral part of the sound of the band, with his bass allowing Eddie to be flashy and his vocal harmonies.
I don't see how he fits this criteria at all.
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Michael Anthony unleashed could actually be heard in Without You in VHIII.
EDIT: Or even just in the best Van Halen song ever, Right Now. :metal
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Here's the thing. If you drop Michael Anthony into Priest nobody would notice or care. You could do the same thing with AC/DC. Cliff Williams and Ian Hill could trade gigs and they'd still be the same bands. You put Williams or Hill in Van Halen and it's no longer the same band. Not even close. I think that's where the distinction comes in with bass players.
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Michael Anthony unleashed could actually be heard in Without You in VHIII.
EDIT: Or even just in the best Van Halen song ever, Right Now. :metal
That was Eddie on Bass. Seriously.
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Here's the thing. If you drop Michael Anthony into Priest nobody would notice or care. You could do the same thing with AC/DC. Cliff Williams and Ian Hill could trade gigs and they'd still be the same bands. You put Williams or Hill in Van Halen and it's no longer the same band. Not even close. I think that's where the distinction comes in with bass players.
So Michael Anthony is a good bass player and is not just lucky? :p
That was Eddie on Bass. Seriously.
Isn't Without You one of the three songs Michael Anthony played in in VHIII?
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Liam. Gallagher.
Famous and rich exclusively thanks to his brother. Not once has he been grateful. And without oasis he'd be a nobody or in jail.
All he does is talk shit about the person who got him where he is today.
Ugly. Stupid. Can't sing live.
I'm not disagreeing with on some points but I wouldn't say Oasis were successful exclusively because of Noel. Liam brought an attitude and stage presence. He became the face of a generation and his loud mouth, outspoken persona help to actually propel the band. That's how I see it anyway. Noel is clearly more talented and Liam may be lucky in some sense but he certainly helped the band get as big as they did.
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Here's the thing. If you drop Michael Anthony into Priest nobody would notice or care. You could do the same thing with AC/DC. Cliff Williams and Ian Hill could trade gigs and they'd still be the same bands. You put Williams or Hill in Van Halen and it's no longer the same band. Not even close. I think that's where the distinction comes in with bass players.
That is a really great point.
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Liam. Gallagher.
Famous and rich exclusively thanks to his brother. Not once has he been grateful. And without oasis he'd be a nobody or in jail.
All he does is talk shit about the person who got him where he is today.
Ugly. Stupid. Can't sing live.
I'm not disagreeing with on some points but I wouldn't say Oasis were successful exclusively because of Noel. Liam brought an attitude and stage presence. He became the face of a generation and his loud mouth, outspoken persona help to actually propel the band. That's how I see it anyway. Noel is clearly more talented and Liam may be lucky in some sense but he certainly helped the band get as big as they did.
Right. He had the stage persona and the voice on record. Live he was shit. I've gone back to old recordings and he couldn't sing live. I guess I didn't notice when I was 18 and in love with the band.
Also - Liam wouldn't have made it on his own. Rain just didn't have the songs apparently. The first Beady Eye album was pretty poor too.
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I get the context of this thread (and love it!)
Thank God someone does!! :tup :tup
To clarify, calling someone lucky in the sense I mean it does not mean I think they suck or didn't contribute or were easily replaceable; it just means they were lucky enough to end up in a band with an all-timer (or maybe more than one all-timers). Michael Anthony is a perfect example. So is Ringo Starr. I think Nick Mason is a good example as well.
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My take on this - and why I put in Mick Mars - is really that point that el Barto made. I've told this before, but I saw Sabbath in February of 94 in a club, with Motorhead opening. it was the Cross Purposes tour, so it was Bobby Rondinelli on drums, Tony Martin on vox, and Geezer was on bass. I saw Sabbath in February of 95, in the SAME club, with Motorhead opening. it was the Forbidden tour, so it was Cozy Powell on drums, Tony Martin on vox, and Neil Murray on bass.
It might have been two different bands entirely. Like night and fucking day. Geezer brought SO much to the party, and even though Neil Murray is a very competent bass player, it just wasn't the same.
It's not even "skillz"; there's little argument that Bruce Kulick and even Vin Vincent are better, technically, as guitar players, but Ace brings something intangible, and like with Geezer, the other guys play differently with them.
I think Mike Anthony is a GREAT bass player; I saw a club show with Chickenfoot and he blew me away. But he's lucky, in that he didn't have to do all that. He got a great gig, doing what Ed told him. Is Mike better than that? Of course, but they didn't need him to be "THE MIGHTY VAN HALEN!" I think Mick Mars is in that category. Does he suck? Nope (though I don't think he's really GREAT, either). Nikki wrote the songs, Vince was the mouthpiece, and Tommy was the cock. Perhaps the dynamic would be very different, and maybe behind the scenes he was a key strategist, but I don't think Motley is one bit more or less popular without Mick Mars.
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Liam. Gallagher.
Famous and rich exclusively thanks to his brother. Not once has he been grateful. And without oasis he'd be a nobody or in jail.
All he does is talk shit about the person who got him where he is today.
Ugly. Stupid. Can't sing live.
I'm not disagreeing with on some points but I wouldn't say Oasis were successful exclusively because of Noel. Liam brought an attitude and stage presence. He became the face of a generation and his loud mouth, outspoken persona help to actually propel the band. That's how I see it anyway. Noel is clearly more talented and Liam may be lucky in some sense but he certainly helped the band get as big as they did.
Right. He had the stage persona and the voice on record. Live he was shit. I've gone back to old recordings and he couldn't sing live. I guess I didn't notice when I was 18 and in love with the band.
Also - Liam wouldn't have made it on his own. Rain just didn't have the songs apparently. The first Beady Eye album was pretty poor too.
You're probably right that Liam wouldn't have made it on his own. But Oasis likely wouldn't have become as big without Liam.
Yes, in a sense Liam was lucky to be in the band but equally you could say the rest of the band were lucky to have a frontman like Liam.
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Thank God someone does!! :tup :tup
To clarify, calling someone lucky in the sense I mean it does not mean I think they suck or didn't contribute or were easily replaceable; it just means they were lucky enough to end up in a band with an all-timer (or maybe more than one all-timers). Michael Anthony is a perfect example. So is Ringo Starr. I think Nick Mason is a good example as well.
But you titled the thread as the "luckiest ever", so the luckiest would be definitely those who were pretty useless. :rollin
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I do have the epitome of this topic, though: Donna Godcheaux
Band in flux, losing a founding member/keyboard player, having financial troubles, and this girl introduces Jerry to a quiet, odd musical genius, Keith Godcheaux, who subsequently joins the band. Less than a year later, the "girl" goes on tour with them and starts to provide "musical" "vocal" (both very much in quotes) accompaniment. For whatever reason, Bob Weird liked singing with her, but it was an abomination.
Sure enough, in '94, when the RaRHoF in their largesse decided that everyone who ever stood on stage and played a note with the Dead was eligible for induction, she got in. Ritchie Blackmore, Neil Peart, Chris Squier and Freddie Mercury had yet to be inducted, but sure enough she was LUCKY enough to get in there.
Do you know how many versions of "Playing In The Band" I have that are absolutely ruined by tuneless wailing that even Yoko Ono would say is over the top? Too many.
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That's more like it! Although we don't even know if she qualifies as a musician. :lol
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You're probably right that Liam wouldn't have made it on his own. But Oasis likely wouldn't have become as big without Liam.
Yes, in a sense Liam was lucky to be in the band but equally you could say the rest of the band were lucky to have a frontman like Liam.
Perhaps but Noels songs were still better than every other British band at the time so he would have made it but might not have been as big...
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Here's the thing. If you drop Michael Anthony into Priest nobody would notice or care. You could do the same thing with AC/DC. Cliff Williams and Ian Hill could trade gigs and they'd still be the same bands. You put Williams or Hill in Van Halen and it's no longer the same band. Not even close. I think that's where the distinction comes in with bass players.
So Michael Anthony is a good bass player and is not just lucky? :p
That was Eddie on Bass. Seriously.
Isn't Without You one of the three songs Michael Anthony played in in VHIII?
I've read about the 3 songs as well. Listen to style of playing. Fingertaping, playing the same notes with guitarist as a riff. Thats Eddie all the way. Mike can pay that but his style is a pocket player.
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Thank God someone does!! :tup :tup
To clarify, calling someone lucky in the sense I mean it does not mean I think they suck or didn't contribute or were easily replaceable; it just means they were lucky enough to end up in a band with an all-timer (or maybe more than one all-timers). Michael Anthony is a perfect example. So is Ringo Starr. I think Nick Mason is a good example as well.
But you titled the thread as the "luckiest ever", so the luckiest would be definitely those who were pretty useless. :rollin
No. I put "luckiest" in quotes for a reason and gave this explanation in the first post:
By this, I mean musicians who were fortunate enough to end up in a band that hit it big. Not saying these have to be bad musicians, but examples of musicians who were lucky to have the success that they did because of the other members in the band.
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Well, that could be any member of any band who isn't the "star" of the band.
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Joe Walsh and not because he was not a good player, but the money he made after joining around the Hotel California days.
When folks mentioned the Beatles, I immediately thought of the PT song 'Four Cords that made a million'.
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Ritchie Blackmore, Neil Peart, Chris Squier and Freddie Mercury
what does this band sound like?
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Well, that could be any member of any band who isn't the "star" of the band.
Indeed. Every member of the Doors other than Morison. Taylor and Deacon. Myung and LaBrie. Any member of the Stones and Aerosmith with normal sized lips.
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Well, that could be any member of any band who isn't the "star" of the band.
Ha yup, exactly.
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Mark Wahlberg, when he got the gig with Steel Dragon. :yarr :biggrin:
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Seriously though, Arnel Pineda of Journey
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Tommy Decarlo. Boston's New singer
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Plus there's the fact that Larry started the band.
Also allegedly they kept Adam because he learned music terms to make it sound like he was better than he was :lol
It's true. I remember watching a U2 documentary where I believe it was Edge who was said Adam kept dropping terms like 'intonation' when in fact he didn't really know what he was talking about.
I don't know much Kiss history but what's the deal with Peter Criss?
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By this, I mean musicians who were fortunate enough to end up in a band that hit it big. Not saying these have to be bad musicians, but examples of musicians who were lucky to have the success that they did because of the other members in the band.
Given the above, I'm going to say John Paul Jones.
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Man I disagree about JPJ. His ability to play different instruments allowed Led Zep to expand their music horizons.
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Man I disagree about JPJ. His ability to play different instruments allowed Led Zep to expand their music horizons.
Yup, I'd say no one in Zepp falls into this "lucky" category.
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Man I disagree about JPJ. His ability to play different instruments allowed Led Zep to expand their music horizons.
Yup, I'd say no one in Zepp falls into this "lucky" category.
Yep, LZ is one of those bands where no one was lucky...The Who, LZ, Rush, Queen, etc.
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So you guys all believe LZ would not have achieved the success they did if Jones was not the 4th member and that conversley Jones would have gone on to become a superstar even if he hadn't happened to be the 4th member of a band that included Page, Plant and Bonham? Any 4th member playing with that trio at that time would consider themselves "lucky" IMO.
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Do you know who wrote the riff to Black Dog. He came up with the recorder into to Stairway, wrote the main riff for Dazed and confused?
Yeah he was.
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A *LOT* of classic Led Zep riffs were written by JPJ.
My friend who is a Led Zep fanboy said it was mainly the complicated sounding ones. And Page's riffs were mostly the simpler ones like Whole Lotta Love.
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I'm aware of the above and not denying JPJ's contributions to the band or in any way underestimating his talent or achievement as an musician/performer/writer. Indeed, some of their most original stuff is down to JPJ (No Quarter comes imediately to mind) and Page especially has been criticised as not particularly original. I'm simply saying that given the initial question posed by Kevshemev, JPJ was extremely lucky to be a member of group that consisted of Page, Plant and Bonham (each with their larger than life personas and stage presence) and managed by Peter Grant. What made Zeppelin the global superstars they were was in large part down to personas, image and auroa/presence of the other 3 and Grant's PR brilliance. Ask the average rock fan to name the members of LZ and I guarantee that those who can only name 1 wouldn't name Jones and of those who name 3 of the 4, Jones will be the one who the vast majority omit.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/20-things-you-didnt-know-john-paul-jones-did-20160318
If he had been a regular contributing hired gun (Ala Mick Ronson and later Brian Eno with Bowie) rather than a fully fledged member of LZ, the band would still have been just as successful. The man's contributions before, during and after his time with LZ are incredible. None of these are what are what he is remembered for. His achievements with Zep though are what are most widely known though as he was a member of the band, not just a regular hired gun. Zep would have been just as successful as a 3 piece (Plant, Page, Bonham) managed by Grant, with Jones contributing regularly from outside of the band as a hired hand IMHO. Jones was lucky to have been a member of the band and enjoyed an equal part of their success. Contrast this to Ronson and (later) Eno and Visconiti's collaborations with Bowie. Also John Evans who was basically just a hired hand during his time with Jethro Tull (a band in the pre Tull days called the John Evan band included Evans, Ian Anderson, Barriemore Barlow and Jeffrey Hammond-Hammond all future Tull members). I could go on with many more examples of session musicians/hired guns who have made regular significant contributions to their employer, but were only ever employees. JPJ was lucky in that he was a member of a band that included Page, Plant, Bonham and was managed by Grant and was not just an employee.
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Well, if we're going down the road of JPJ as a lucky musician, than almost all bassists are lucky. Who cares about bass players anyway? John Myung is so lucky.
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I'm not arguing that he was lucky as the bass player. I'm arguing he was lucky to be the 4th member of group that comprised Page, Plant and Bonham. With Grant's astute management these could have released anything and been superstars, conversely those same albums (with the exception maybe of 2 and 4) could have been released by any other group of musicians and I doubt they would have resulted in that group becoming the global superstars that Zeppelin were.
I'm not dismissing Jones and bass players who are often at the very core of a group's success (Lemmy, Jack Bruce, Geddy Lee, Chris Squire, Les Claypool, Roger Waters, Paul McCartney etc., etc)
To use a sporting analogy, I don't care who was on the Bulls roster in the early 90s. They all ended up with championship rings, but were lucky to be in a team that included Michael Jordan. That doesn't make them any better or worse as basket ballers, it's just s statement of fact. Remove Jordan from that team and I wonder how successful they would have been. Likewise for guys in the current Barcelona squad ,who are lucky to be in a team that includes Messi, Suarez and Neymar. Transfer that same player to another club and they are very unlikely to experience the success they would experience at Barcelona. Those three though are superstars where ever they play.
I probably still haven't made my point very well, but perhaps there's some who see what I'm trying to argue as basically blasphemy and could never be convinced or even acknowledge that even if Jones wasn't lucky, he was at the very least, fortunate.
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I'm not arguing that he was lucky as the bass player. I'm arguing he was lucky to be the 4th member of group that comprised Page, Plant and Bonham. With Grant's astute management these could have released anything and been superstars, conversely those same albums (with the exception maybe of 2 and 4) could have been released by any other group of musicians and I doubt they would have resulted in that group becoming the global superstars that Zeppelin were.
I'm not dismissing Jones and bass players who are often at the very core of a group's success (Lemmy, Jack Bruce, Geddy Lee, Chris Squire, Les Claypool, Roger Waters, Paul McCartney etc., etc)
To use a sporting analogy, I don't care who was on the Bulls roster in the early 90s. They all ended up with championship rings, but were lucky to be in a team that included Michael Jordan. That doesn't make them any better or worse as basket ballers, it's just s statement of fact. Remove Jordan from that team and I wonder how successful they would have been. Likewise for guys in the current Barcelona squad ,who are lucky to be in a team that includes Messi, Suarez and Neymar. Transfer that same player to another club and they are very unlikely to experience the success they would experience at Barcelona. Those three though are superstars where ever they play.
I probably still haven't made my point very well, but perhaps there's some who see what I'm trying to argue as basically blasphemy and could never be convinced or even acknowledge that even if Jones wasn't lucky, he was at the very least, fortunate.
By that logic, wouldn't Bonham also be lucky to be in Zeppelin?
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In that case, all the members of Porcupine Tree are lucky because they had Steven Wilson?
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I'm not arguing that he was lucky as the bass player. I'm arguing he was lucky to be the 4th member of group that comprised Page, Plant and Bonham. With Grant's astute management these could have released anything and been superstars, conversely those same albums (with the exception maybe of 2 and 4) could have been released by any other group of musicians and I doubt they would have resulted in that group becoming the global superstars that Zeppelin were.
I'm not dismissing Jones and bass players who are often at the very core of a group's success (Lemmy, Jack Bruce, Geddy Lee, Chris Squire, Les Claypool, Roger Waters, Paul McCartney etc., etc)
To use a sporting analogy, I don't care who was on the Bulls roster in the early 90s. They all ended up with championship rings, but were lucky to be in a team that included Michael Jordan. That doesn't make them any better or worse as basket ballers, it's just s statement of fact. Remove Jordan from that team and I wonder how successful they would have been. Likewise for guys in the current Barcelona squad ,who are lucky to be in a team that includes Messi, Suarez and Neymar. Transfer that same player to another club and they are very unlikely to experience the success they would experience at Barcelona. Those three though are superstars where ever they play.
I probably still haven't made my point very well, but perhaps there's some who see what I'm trying to argue as basically blasphemy and could never be convinced or even acknowledge that even if Jones wasn't lucky, he was at the very least, fortunate.
By that logic, wouldn't Bonham also be lucky to be in Zeppelin?
No. In each of my posts, I've specifically mentioned, Bonham along with Page and Plant as critical in the massive success that the group achieved due to their larger than life personas and legendary antics. I suppose what I'm trying to argue (perhaps poorly, by the reactions I'm getting, is that Zeppelin's MASSIVE success was due more to the personas (on and off the stage) of Page, Plant and Bonham along with the managerial flair of Grant than it was to the quality of their music, (which JPJ was a critical contributor to).
In that case, all the members of Porcupine Tree are lucky because they had Steven Wilson?
Porcupine Tree have never come even close to achieving the global success that LZ did. In fact Japan in their heyday were probably every bit as successful as PT. My point, again returning to the original premise of the thread, is that JPJ was lucky to be the 4th member of a group that were THE superstar act of the 70s. They weren't just a successful or evenly highly successful act, they were THE rock gods of the 70s and as I've written several times now, that is down to Grant and the personas of the other 3 as much as to any music they recorded.
For the bass players I might have offended, a couple more that I left off the list in my previous post, Geezer Butler, Flea, John Wetton, Richard Sinclair, Cliff Burton (Metallica were never the same without him - but that's another thread ;) ) Tommy Araya etc. etc. - I'm not bashing bass players or their contributions to their respective bands.
Keeping in mind the original intent of the thread, if LZ's phenomenal success was not down largely to (as I've stated many times now) the personas of P,P and B and the management of Grant, what then made them the biggest act of the 70s bar none? Having read many posts on these very forums stating that Zeppelin were basically unoriginal and/or over rated, I'm interested to read other arguments about what made LZ so successful and how JPJ was in no way "lucky" to have been part of that huge success and the juggernaut that was Led Zeppelin, and how he would have been a member of The biggest group of the 70s that did not include Grant and the other 3 simply because of his musical and creative abilities.
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John Petrucci is lucky that he decided to learn guitar as a kid.
*sidenote. When guitarists are as good as Petrucci - you can't imagine them going thru the same shit as all other beginners. Learning the first open chords - struggling with barre chords,
aching hands, learning that first scale / solo... Having a cheapy guitar into a horrible amp...
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*snip*
I see where you're coming from. But I disagree respectfully. If I ever saw JPJ in the street and said 'you were so lucky to be in a band with those three' I'd probably have to kill myself after he slapped me in his face with his wallet and huge dick. I enjoy JPJ's contributions to Zeppelin more than anyone else. Besides Bonham... maybe.
I was thinking about this the other night actually, I think all four of those guys were lucky to find each other and create what they did, when they did. It's just one of those things that happens every so often with bands - planets align and awesomeness happens. Can you imagine a group of top session muso's today, or in any era, that could get together and take over the world like that? Toto is packed with those kinds of guys but they are nowhere near Zeppelin in popularity.
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...the Blowfish
...the Blackhearts
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By this, I mean musicians who were fortunate enough to end up in a band that hit it big. Not saying these have to be bad musicians, but examples of musicians who were lucky to have the success that they did because of the other members in the band.
Examples:
Michael Anthony - decent bass player and good background singer, but Van Halen would have been big thanks to EVH no matter what.
Ringo Starr - sure, Ringo is not as awful as some think he is, and he inspired a lot of drummers, but ending up with two of the best songwriters ever, and a third who was damn good as well, was pretty damn lucky)
Adam Clayton & Larry Mullen, JR - with all due respect to both, neither would have made a dent anywhere else if not for landing in a band with Bono and The Edge. To their credit, I suspect both know this, which is why U2 has never really had any real drama; they know their places and how lucky they are.
Ringo wasn't really lucky. The Beatles had another drummer but the studio told them to try Ringo out because he was a great studio drummer. He got in because of skill and not luck.
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Ringo wasn't really lucky. The Beatles had another drummer but the studio told them to try Ringo out because he was a great studio drummer. He got in because of skill and not luck.
All true, but he was still lucky to end up in the band he did. Just look at the songwriting credits for every Beatles album and tell me otherwise. :biggrin:
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*snip*
If I ever saw JPJ in the street and said 'you were so lucky to be in a band with those three' I'd probably have to kill myself after he slapped me in his face with his wallet and huge dick.
And I would completely expect and understand that reaction (I would probably be a bit surprised about the second part though :lol) I'm almost certain however, that had Plant looked similar to Grant, Page born a striking resemblance to Leslie West and Bonham was an introvert who abstained from drugs and alcohol, that our friend Mr Jones' wallet would be significantly lighter than what it is. "Luckily" for him, that wasn't the case. ;)
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Waylon Jennings and Tommy Allsup. Prior to the flight that killed Buddy Holly, JP Richardson, and Ritchie Valens, Jennings gave up his seat to Richardson, and Allsup flipped a coin for his seat with Valens and lost.
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Similar to how they drew cards for Cliff's Burton's bunk. Cliff obviously "won" that bunk and the rest is history.
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Adding to the JPJ discussion, I actually feel he was the most talented musician in the entire band and gets nowhere near enough credit for what he did in that band. JP, RP, and JB are all supremely talented musicians but I would argue that they were the lucky ones because they were in a band with a guy like JPJ who could take their music to a whole other level. Of course I'm a bassist so I may be biased.
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Similar to how they drew cards for Cliff's Burton's bunk. Cliff obviously "won" that bunk and the rest is history.
I'm sure I read that that isn't actually true and it never happened (the drawing for bunks). I could be wrong though.
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Every member of The Rolling Stones, just pick one or all of them. In my mind the single most overrated band ever in the history of music...they, like the Beatles just happened to hit at the right time.
I would single out Charlie Watts especially there. I mean, that's pure WTF territory. The guy can barely drum.
Regarding the JLB comment, I actually agree. I'm by no means saying James is a bad singer, but he has been incredibly lucky to land a gig with a band that could afford to continue having a wailing operatic singer while the rest of the music industry entirely turned their backs towards that type of singing. Had he joined any other band, no matter how skilled he is, he would have quickly been forgotten.
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Rick Laird to an extent fits as the rest of the Mahavishnu guys have had quite successful careers outside of M.O., but Laird?
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The 2nd DJ guy in Slipknot.
No one knows who you are. No one knows what you do. Most people forget you exist.
I was tempted to say the main DJ guy, but he is a huge contributor to their sound, and the two trash can drumming guys help make their live shows what they are.
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Yes. It reminds me of listening to garbage cans being tossed around by the NYC Sanitation workers.
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The 2nd DJ guy in Slipknot.
No one knows who you are. No one knows what you do. Most people forget you exist.
I was tempted to say the main DJ guy, but he is a huge contributor to their sound, and the two trash can drumming guys help make their live shows what they are.
I think I read that he controls the guitar effects onstage.
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The 2nd DJ guy in Slipknot.
No one knows who you are. No one knows what you do. Most people forget you exist.
I was tempted to say the main DJ guy, but he is a huge contributor to their sound, and the two trash can drumming guys help make their live shows what they are.
I think I read that he controls the guitar effects onstage.
so he's doing a guitar tech's job as well? i hope they pay him for that.
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Sounds like it and he also works with Sid, the other DJ, to work with sampling and things like that.
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Yeah, if I remember correctly, Sid is the turntable dude and actually used to be a pretty big DJ under the moniker "DJ Starscream", contributes a lot to the on-stage performance and sound. Though I don't know if it's the case with more recent albums, songs like Surfacing and Spit it Out include a lot of scratching.
Craig however (the guy with the huge nails sticking out of his mask), is the sampler and barely has to do anything during shows. Maybe he does the samples live but there is no use in doing so, he could as well plan everything out beforehand. I think the project started out as a group of friends from Iowa and they didn't really leave anyone out, despite the obviously crazy amount of people. I'd argue that Craig Jones is among the most lucky musicians out there, yeah. I would say the same for the two percussionists, who are mainly there for the show, but having seen them these two really do put up a mindblowing concert.
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I think Clown, one of the percussionists, is vital to the band. He handles a lot of the art direction and tone of the albums. It's Clown and Jim Root that are going into studio soon to start the next album. I don't know how much he writes, but he handles a lot.
The other percussionist Chris, I'm not sure what he does, but he may be along for the ride
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I think Slipknot is a bit odd since they became famous for their live shows, and the two trash can guys are definitely a huge part of that, which is why I didn't include them.
If Slipknot got famous more so for their albums, then sure. But even live that 2nd DJ guy is pretty redundant.
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I'd say the Empu and Jukka of Nightwish. Easily could have been any guitarist or drummer and the band's success has little to do with them (as much as I personally love them both).
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Art Garfunkel.
He is a very great singer, but without Paul Simons songs, I think he never would have enjoyed the success he had.
Chris Wolstenholme & Dominic Howard.
Same here, both are good musicians, but it's really Bellamy's singing, guitar & piano playing, as well as his songs that make Muse good. I hate to say it, but they could be replaced by any good drummer or bass player, because I wouldn't say their playing is very characteristic. If two complete other guys had formed the band with Matt, I think they would have gained the same success.
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As much as it pains me to say this, even if I do say that it wouldn't be Alter Bridge without those guys since the line-up hasn't changed at all since their formation, I will have to honestly say Brian Marshall and Scott Phillips of Alter Bridge/Creed.
For Creed, it's mainly Mark Tremonti's guitar riffs and Scott Stapp's "interesting" lyrics (later his early 2000 off-stage antics) that made that band famous. For Alter Bridge, the songwriting has always been built around Mark Tremonti and Myles Kennedy's guitar ideas/parts where they build songs together based on parts that they thought about from time to time and Flip and Brian fills in the blanks. It's also quite glaring on how when AB/Creed is not active, Mark and Myles have important roles in other bands whereas Flip and Brian does studio work from time to time with unknown bands and Brian Marshall is actually a realtor on the side.
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Chris Wolstenholme & Dominic Howard.
Same here, both are good musicians, but it's really Bellamy's singing, guitar & piano playing, as well as his songs that make Muse good. I hate to say it, but they could be replaced by any good drummer or bass player, because I wouldn't say their playing is very characteristic. If two complete other guys had formed the band with Matt, I think they would have gained the same success.
Interesting, I had never really thought of those two but I think you're right. As long as they seemed close like these guys do and have that camaraderie, then I definitely think that they would have achieved the same success.
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Art Garfunkel.
He is a very great singer, but without Paul Simons songs, I think he never would have enjoyed the success he had.
Definitely agree, although as longtime S&G fanboy, I cannot image many of those songs without Garfunkel's vocal contributions. I don't care who covers BOTW there is only one version that counts and much as my local radio station announcers regularly ask "How awesome is that?" every time they play Disturbed's (fairly decent I must admit) cover of Sounds of Silence, it still sounds like excrement to me when compared to either studio album (Wednesday Morning 3AM / SOS) version that S&G released. Garfunkel's lead and harmony vocals took Simon's compositions into the stratosphere as far I'm concerned. Go listen to Cloudy, 59th St Bridge Song or The Dangling Conversation and and tell me that that these two didn't bring out the best in each other. :hefdaddy
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Chris Wolstenholme & Dominic Howard.
Same here, both are good musicians, but it's really Bellamy's singing, guitar & piano playing, as well as his songs that make Muse good. I hate to say it, but they could be replaced by any good drummer or bass player, because I wouldn't say their playing is very characteristic. If two complete other guys had formed the band with Matt, I think they would have gained the same success.
Interesting, I had never really thought of those two but I think you're right. As long as they seemed close like these guys do and have that camaraderie, then I definitely think that they would have achieved the same success.
As far as Chris goes, Hysteria proves otherwise.
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As much as it pains me to say this, even if I do say that it wouldn't be Alter Bridge without those guys since the line-up hasn't changed at all since their formation, I will have to honestly say Brian Marshall and Scott Phillips of Alter Bridge/Creed.
For Creed, it's mainly Mark Tremonti's guitar riffs and Scott Stapp's "interesting" lyrics (later his early 2000 off-stage antics) that made that band famous. For Alter Bridge, the songwriting has always been built around Mark Tremonti and Myles Kennedy's guitar ideas/parts where they build songs together based on parts that they thought about from time to time and Flip and Brian fills in the blanks. It's also quite glaring on how when AB/Creed is not active, Mark and Myles have important roles in other bands whereas Flip and Brian does studio work from time to time with unknown bands and Brian Marshall is actually a realtor on the side.
It pains me to say that you are probably right. Flip and Brian are both unique players but I definitely think they fall into the category of "lucky" as it applies to this thread.
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Chris Wolstenholme & Dominic Howard.
Same here, both are good musicians, but it's really Bellamy's singing, guitar & piano playing, as well as his songs that make Muse good. I hate to say it, but they could be replaced by any good drummer or bass player, because I wouldn't say their playing is very characteristic. If two complete other guys had formed the band with Matt, I think they would have gained the same success.
Interesting, I had never really thought of those two but I think you're right. As long as they seemed close like these guys do and have that camaraderie, then I definitely think that they would have achieved the same success.
As far as Chris goes, Hysteria proves otherwise.
Hysteria has a cool distorted bass line. But characteristic? Or innovative like the hundreds of ideas that Bellamy brings in? Not really.
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Chris Wolstenholme & Dominic Howard.
Same here, both are good musicians, but it's really Bellamy's singing, guitar & piano playing, as well as his songs that make Muse good. I hate to say it, but they could be replaced by any good drummer or bass player, because I wouldn't say their playing is very characteristic. If two complete other guys had formed the band with Matt, I think they would have gained the same success.
Interesting, I had never really thought of those two but I think you're right. As long as they seemed close like these guys do and have that camaraderie, then I definitely think that they would have achieved the same success.
As far as Chris goes, Hysteria proves otherwise.
Hysteria has a cool distorted bass line. But characteristic? Or innovative like the hundreds of ideas that Bellamy brings in? Not really.
Bellamy is definitely the straw that stirs the Muse drink, but let's not sell Chris Wolstenholme short. He definitely has some unique sounds and some bad ass bass lines. Hysteria stands out, but that fuzzy sound in Time Is Running Out is pretty symbolic in what is certainly one of their most popular songs, and all of that stuff he does in Madness adds most of the musical character to that song (also one of their biggest).
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Chris Wolstenholme & Dominic Howard.
Same here, both are good musicians, but it's really Bellamy's singing, guitar & piano playing, as well as his songs that make Muse good. I hate to say it, but they could be replaced by any good drummer or bass player, because I wouldn't say their playing is very characteristic. If two complete other guys had formed the band with Matt, I think they would have gained the same success.
Interesting, I had never really thought of those two but I think you're right. As long as they seemed close like these guys do and have that camaraderie, then I definitely think that they would have achieved the same success.
As far as Chris goes, Hysteria proves otherwise.
Hysteria has a cool distorted bass line. But characteristic? Or innovative like the hundreds of ideas that Bellamy brings in? Not really.
Bellamy is definitely the straw that stirs the Muse drink, but let's not sell Chris Wolstenholme short. He definitely has some unique sounds and some bad ass bass lines. Hysteria stands out, but that fuzzy sound in Time Is Running Out is pretty symbolic in what is certainly one of their most popular songs, and all of that stuff he does in Madness adds most of the musical character to that song (also one of their biggest).
I agree, I didn't want to make it sound like they have provided nothing to the band's sound, but I think it's nothing that another good drummer/ another good bass player could have done.
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I'll throw Undisclosed Desires in as another example of Chris' style and sound
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I think you have to include all the members of KISS.
Gene is a poor bassist and terrible singer
Peter was a horrific drummer
Paul can't sing, and is a poor guitarist
Ace was always inconsistent and just slightly above average when he was sober and "on".
Collectively they made it work, and the theatrics sealed the deal. Without that we would never have heard of KISS.
And I was in the damn KISS ARMY! I loved that band, but had to admit they were none of them known for solid musicianship!
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I think you have to include all the members of KISS.
Gene is a poor bassist and terrible singer
Peter was a horrific drummer
Paul can't sing, and is a poor guitarist
Ace was always inconsistent and just slightly above average when he was sober and "on".
Collectively they made it work, and the theatrics sealed the deal. Without that we would never have heard of KISS.
And I was in the damn KISS ARMY! I loved that band, but had to admit they were none of them known for solid musicianship!
Actors with instruments. ;)
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I think you have to include all the members of KISS.
Gene is a poor bassist and terrible singer
Peter was a horrific drummer
Paul can't sing, and is a poor guitarist
Ace was always inconsistent and just slightly above average when he was sober and "on".
Collectively they made it work, and the theatrics sealed the deal. Without that we would never have heard of KISS.
And I was in the damn KISS ARMY! I loved that band, but had to admit they were none of them known for solid musicianship!
Strongly disagree with most of that. Gene has a really good lyrical McCartney-esque style to his bass playing and is known to be really proficient live.
Paul in his prime was one of the best rock singers and his voice held up fairly well up until just recently. He's also a good rhythm guitarist. Like Gene, could really hold it together live despite all the running around and theatrics.
Ace was inconsistent and a pretty mediocre guitarist, but had a real penchant for great melodies in his solos. Prime example of intuition overcoming technical proficiency (or lack thereof).
I do agree on Peter and that the theatrics is what made them famous. Also one of those bands that only worked because of the chemistry between the four guys. Still doesn't make them bad players.
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I think you have to include all the members of KISS.
Gene is a poor bassist and terrible singer
Peter was a horrific drummer
Paul can't sing, and is a poor guitarist
Ace was always inconsistent and just slightly above average when he was sober and "on".
Collectively they made it work, and the theatrics sealed the deal. Without that we would never have heard of KISS.
And I was in the damn KISS ARMY! I loved that band, but had to admit they were none of them known for solid musicianship!
Strongly disagree with most of that. Gene has a really good lyrical McCartney-esque style to his bass playing and is known to be really proficient live.
Paul in his prime was one of the best rock singers and his voice held up fairly well up until just recently. He's also a good rhythm guitarist. Like Gene, could really hold it together live despite all the running around and theatrics.
Ace was inconsistent and a pretty mediocre guitarist, but had a real penchant for great melodies in his solos. Prime example of intuition overcoming technical proficiency (or lack thereof).
I do agree on Peter and that the theatrics is what made them famous. Also one of those bands that only worked because of the chemistry between the four guys. Still doesn't make them bad players.
I also disagree with some of that. Paul Stanley, especially in the 80s, is one of my favorite rock n roll singers. This shows why (especially the wailing ending): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8GnyfxrNEg
However, Peter has always been terrible and Ace was too drunk most of the time.
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I think you have to include all the members of KISS.
Gene is a poor bassist and terrible singer
Peter was a horrific drummer
Paul can't sing, and is a poor guitarist
Ace was always inconsistent and just slightly above average when he was sober and "on".
Collectively they made it work, and the theatrics sealed the deal. Without that we would never have heard of KISS.
And I was in the damn KISS ARMY! I loved that band, but had to admit they were none of them known for solid musicianship!
I think you are being a bit harsh on them. Sure they probably would not have made any where near the money they did without the makeup and brilliant marketing, but this was more down to astute management and Simmons slick business/marketing skills than sheer good luck. Despite the makeup, they still had some killer tracks.
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I think you have to include all the members of KISS.
Gene is a poor bassist and terrible singer
Peter was a horrific drummer
Paul can't sing, and is a poor guitarist
Ace was always inconsistent and just slightly above average when he was sober and "on".
Collectively they made it work, and the theatrics sealed the deal. Without that we would never have heard of KISS.
And I was in the damn KISS ARMY! I loved that band, but had to admit they were none of them known for solid musicianship!
Strongly disagree with most of that. Gene has a really good lyrical McCartney-esque style to his bass playing and is known to be really proficient live.
Paul in his prime was one of the best rock singers and his voice held up fairly well up until just recently. He's also a good rhythm guitarist. Like Gene, could really hold it together live despite all the running around and theatrics.
Ace was inconsistent and a pretty mediocre guitarist, but had a real penchant for great melodies in his solos. Prime example of intuition overcoming technical proficiency (or lack thereof).
I do agree on Peter and that the theatrics is what made them famous. Also one of those bands that only worked because of the chemistry between the four guys. Still doesn't make them bad players.
I'm an admitted fan boy, but I'm with Mosh; I think they get short shrift on the musicianship point. I know, I know, Rick Neilson is famous for saying Gene sucks at bass, but he does a whole lot more than just thumb the root note, and as Mosh said, live, he delivers the goods. The one show where Paul was sick, Gene fronted the band as a three-piece and it was actually pretty damn good. And Paul... he's arguably one of the five best frontmen in rock history. His vocals have been solid as a rock - live - for the better part of 30 years, and other than Dio and Dickenson (maybe) no other metal/rock singer can claim that. I've been lucky enough to see them in every decade since the 80's, and up until the last tour (the co-headliner with Def Leppard, which I took my 15 year old to to see the "spectacle"; she later put a picture of the RaRAN finale on Instagram with the caption "The greatest night of my life!") his vocals were ROCK SOLID and strong.
Ace is hit or miss live; I've seen him light it up (MSG in '96) and I've seen him suck ass (Tuxedo Junction in Danbury in... late '80's early 90's, solo). But he is by far the most influential player - not "actor", not "character", but PLAYER - in the band. There are guys dead and buried with his image tattooed on their bodies. That says something. He may not be Ed Van Halen or Yngvie (he's not) but he is one of the very few that you hear them play and you know who it is straight away.
I'm with you on Peter. I saw the Kiss/Aerosmith tour, his last with the band (Tommy was already on guitar) and it SUCKED. He was SO off tempo, and you could see Gene and Paul continually looking back at him. I'm convinced that there was another drummer backstage out of sight, because there were times where it barely looked like he was playing, and yet the show went on (they were actually, as a band, pretty good that night).
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And Paul... he's arguably one of the five best frontmen in rock history. His vocals have been solid as a rock - live - for the better part of 30 years, and other than Dio and Dickenson (maybe) no other metal/rock singer can claim that.
No fucking question about it. None.
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I just watched a Peter Criss drum cam video; wow, just wow .
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I just watched a Peter Criss drum cam video; wow, just wow .
Bad is he ? care to link me ?
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I mean he isn't the worst drummer on the planet but I mean I was definitely expecting a bit more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1STcwfWhug
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Yeah I saw that . It's like he's putting no effort in at all.
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^
Unless they were doing '100,000 Years', 'Black Diamond', or his solo, did anyone pay attention to him during a concert? Unless he was bad, of course. I thought he did what he was supposed to do, which was simply to keep the beat for these two songs. Paul was the one who was off a couple of times, which often was the case from trying to give 110% a bit too often.
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Yeah I saw that . It's like he's putting no effort in at all.
The chewing gum, and the bobbing of the head halfway in did not help.
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Wow, sorry to all the Kiss fans here. But this was the first time I really listened to a Kiss song, apart from their known hits.. It just sounds terrible to me. No good guitar sound or solo, the singer is croaking instead of singing, and man that drummer... no wonder he looks bored af.. his playing is also pretty boring...
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Peter Criss is definitely the lucky member of KISS, and by the point they'd reunited there, the only appeal was that he was an original member. There are worse clips of Criss from the reunion tour, but even at his best, he had no power or energy left, and he thinks much more highly of himself than he ought to.
The rest of the band members however, I'd argue were crucial to the success of the band.
Paul Stanley was the key songwriter, and an underrated singer and frontman in general. He is the main voice of KISS, and the band could not have survived without him, especially during the '80s when they relied on him more than ever.
Gene Simmons isn't the best singer or bass player, but his bass lines have always been memorable and melodic, and he also contributed to songwriting and vocals, although he was never as strong a songwriter as Paul. He's also perhaps the most recognizable and iconic member of the band, and sang many signature songs, and I think he was critical to the business side of the band and getting them off the ground too.
Ace Frehley I'd say was also an important factor. Again, not the flashiest player, and not one of the best of the era, but he had such a distinctive style that became a key part of the band's sound, and was a big influence on many later guitarists. Maybe they would have gotten by with another guitarist, but it would have changed the band drastically.
Peter Criss was a competent drummer back in the day, but I think you could have put any other decent drummer in his place, and not have lost much at all. He had a nice voice, and sang some good songs, but I don't think any of his contributions were instrumental to their success. He was lucky back in the day, and downright blessed to be brought back in the '90s and later.
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I love watching prog fans discuss Kiss. It's like asking me to discuss football. Difference is that THIS time, everyone's been fairly respectful, unlike the usual deluge of "lol kiss sucks I troll you" posts that typically come up, so I'll call this progress. :clap:
Paul was unquestionably born to be a frontman. Great singer, great entertainer, great energy. As Mosh said, Gene has a McCatrney-esque walking bass style, which gave an added oomph in all the right places. Ace has been cited as an influence by so many guitarists, it isn't even funny. For example:
https://ridethewind.wordpress.com/2015/04/02/rock-guitarists-inspired-by-ace-frehley-to-pick-up-and-play-guitar/
I agree that Peter was definitely the lucky one. This says it better than I could.
Peter Criss was a competent drummer back in the day, but I think you could have put any other decent drummer in his place, and not have lost much at all. He had a nice voice, and sang some good songs, but I don't think any of his contributions were instrumental to their success. He was lucky back in the day, and downright blessed to be brought back in the '90s and later.
Also, Lynxo, I hadn't seen that video of I Want You. Fantastic video of Paul nailing it.
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Peter Criss is definitely the lucky member of KISS, and by the point they'd reunited there, the only appeal was that he was an original member. There are worse clips of Criss from the reunion tour, but even at his best, he had no power or energy left, and he thinks much more highly of himself than he ought to.
They must have compressed his kit to buggery live because it looks like he's barely making contact with anything.
Say what you will about lars Ulrich but he loves bashing that kit and definitely looks like he's enjoying it.
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Peter Criss is definitely the lucky member of KISS, and by the point they'd reunited there, the only appeal was that he was an original member. There are worse clips of Criss from the reunion tour, but even at his best, he had no power or energy left, and he thinks much more highly of himself than he ought to.
They must have compressed his kit to buggery live because it looks like he's barely making contact with anything.
I read that for his drum solo, they had to trigger samples to make it sound good. And yeah, why the fuck Peter Criss wants his own drum solo is beyond me. :lol
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Peter Criss is definitely the lucky member of KISS, and by the point they'd reunited there, the only appeal was that he was an original member. There are worse clips of Criss from the reunion tour, but even at his best, he had no power or energy left, and he thinks much more highly of himself than he ought to.
They must have compressed his kit to buggery live because it looks like he's barely making contact with anything.
I read that for his drum solo, they had to trigger samples to make it sound good. And yeah, why the fuck Peter Criss wants his own drum solo is beyond me. :lol
Peter Criss thinks more highly of himself than Peter Criss should. Also, the band/audience needs to take a piss somewhere. That's what drum solos are designed for.
I've read that they triggered his kit (at least for when they reformed in 2003). I don't think compression alone could get anything usable out of those piss weak hits.
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Peter Criss thinks more highly of himself than Peter Criss should.
This.
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Another thing you can't say about Lars. Find one interview or quote of his - at least post 2000 - where he says " i'm such a great drummer ".
I know he's said he thinks he is great at just backing up James but never like : " I'm so good "...
Post 2000 at least it's been mostly " why aren't I as good as I used to be " or " i'm nowhere near Portnoy or Lombardo levels ".
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Wow, sorry to all the Kiss fans here. But this was the first time I really listened to a Kiss song, apart from their known hits.. It just sounds terrible to me. No good guitar sound or solo, the singer is croaking instead of singing, and man that drummer... no wonder he looks bored af.. his playing is also pretty boring...
Compare that to the Winterland '75 video in the Kissology Box Set. A band absolutely on FIRE. That video is why they were for a period the biggest band in the world.
I've already bagged on Criss, but he had his moments; his playing on the "Hotter Than Hell" album is pretty solid, as is "Destroyer" and "Rock and Roll Over". If you think he's delusional about his abilities, you should read his biography. Oy. To hear him tell it, he carried that wastrel Ace and the two Jews (his words, not mine) on his back for YEARS, and they should be grateful.
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To hear him tell it, he carried that wastrel Ace and the two Jews (his words, not mine) on his back for YEARS, and they should be grateful.
Peter Criss thinks more highly of himself than Peter Criss should.
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Eric Carr was 1000x better than Peter Criss and should be mentioned in the other thread.
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Peter Criss is definitely the lucky member of KISS, and by the point they'd reunited there, the only appeal was that he was an original member. There are worse clips of Criss from the reunion tour, but even at his best, he had no power or energy left, and he thinks much more highly of himself than he ought to.
They must have compressed his kit to buggery live because it looks like he's barely making contact with anything.
I read that for his drum solo, they had to trigger samples to make it sound good. And yeah, why the fuck Peter Criss wants his own drum solo is beyond me. :lol
Peter Criss thinks more highly of himself than Peter Criss should. Also, the band/audience needs to take a piss somewhere. That's what drum solos are designed for.
I've read that they triggered his kit (at least for when they reformed in 2003). I don't think compression alone could get anything usable out of those piss weak hits.
I don't know anything about KISS but I would think that there were definitely triggers on everything here, bar the cymbals.
Not uncommon. Vinnie Paul used triggers all throughout Pantera's run and probably still with whatever redneck hick shit he's doing today. Blake from BTBAM has them on his kick at least, same as Joey Jordision. Meg White used them :P For some drummers it's a way to get their tone dialled in on tours where there they can't take their own soundman or whatever, for others it's a bit of a cheapo way of getting power without the effort, which is what Criss is up to I'd say.
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Peter Criss is definitely the lucky member of KISS, and by the point they'd reunited there, the only appeal was that he was an original member. There are worse clips of Criss from the reunion tour, but even at his best, he had no power or energy left, and he thinks much more highly of himself than he ought to.
They must have compressed his kit to buggery live because it looks like he's barely making contact with anything.
I read that for his drum solo, they had to trigger samples to make it sound good. And yeah, why the fuck Peter Criss wants his own drum solo is beyond me. :lol
Peter Criss thinks more highly of himself than Peter Criss should. Also, the band/audience needs to take a piss somewhere. That's what drum solos are designed for.
I've read that they triggered his kit (at least for when they reformed in 2003). I don't think compression alone could get anything usable out of those piss weak hits.
I don't know anything about KISS but I would think that there were definitely triggers on everything here, bar the cymbals.
Not uncommon. Vinnie Paul used triggers all throughout Pantera's run and probably still with whatever redneck hick shit he's doing today. Blake from BTBAM has them on his kick at least, same as Joey Jordision. Meg White used them :P For some drummers it's a way to get their tone dialled in on tours where there they can't take their own soundman or whatever, for others it's a bit of a cheapo way of getting power without the effort, which is what Criss is up to I'd say.
It's not uncommon in metal, especially for the bass drum, to get an even double kicker, and to give it that metal sound to emulate the production on the studio albums.
For Peter Criss, it was probably their only option to get something usable out of him.
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Eric Carr was 1000x better than Peter Criss and should be mentioned in the other thread.
Which is the one reason I think Paul had a legit beef against the RaRHoF. Leaving Eric Carr out was about as blatant a sign that the Hall had no fucking clue about the band or it's history. That Vince Welnick is considered "integral" to the Dead, but Carr is not to Kiss is just ignorant. (I feel the same way about Dio and Sabbath, by the way).
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It's not uncommon in metal, especially for the bass drum, to get an even double kicker, and to give it that metal sound to emulate the production on the studio albums.
For Peter Criss, it was probably their only option to get something usable out of him.
Help me out; I'm not a drummer, and even though I'm a guitar player, I'm not cutting edge on this aspect of technology. A "trigger" is just an artificial sound made when the stick contacts the drum head, right? So that the sound isn't made from the pure acoustics of the stick striking head, and reverberating in the shell, it's actually a sound made artificially. If that's the case, can other members of the band (or a keyboard player backstage, hint hint) hit the triggers too in the event that the primary player misses a cue?
I ask that, because if you read the autobiography, Criss talks about not wanting to be there (he had taken to painting a small tear drop under his eye. Fucking loser.) and there are vids of the band playing with the drum tech instead of Peter. That last tour with Aerosmith was almost purely contractual; the promoters wouldn't do the tour with only two original members, and Ace was gone, so Pete was under contract to be there and play for that tour. He had been known to "sabotage" the show by changing tempos (I tend to believe it wasn't him sabotaging on purpose, but actually not being able to keep up and stay in time, a problem articulated by Bob Ezrin before) and I can see Gene and Paul hedging their bets, especially with Aerosmith on after them (who was EN FUEGO on that tour; they were really at their peak at that point).
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It's not uncommon in metal, especially for the bass drum, to get an even double kicker, and to give it that metal sound to emulate the production on the studio albums.
For Peter Criss, it was probably their only option to get something usable out of him.
Help me out; I'm not a drummer, and even though I'm a guitar player, I'm not cutting edge on this aspect of technology. A "trigger" is just an artificial sound made when the stick contacts the drum head, right? So that the sound isn't made from the pure acoustics of the stick striking head, and reverberating in the shell, it's actually a sound made artificially. If that's the case, can other members of the band (or a keyboard player backstage, hint hint) hit the triggers too in the event that the primary player misses a cue?
I ask that, because if you read the autobiography, Criss talks about not wanting to be there (he had taken to painting a small tear drop under his eye. Fucking loser.) and there are vids of the band playing with the drum tech instead of Peter. That last tour with Aerosmith was almost purely contractual; the promoters wouldn't do the tour with only two original members, and Ace was gone, so Pete was under contract to be there and play for that tour. He had been known to "sabotage" the show by changing tempos (I tend to believe it wasn't him sabotaging on purpose, but actually not being able to keep up and stay in time, a problem articulated by Bob Ezrin before) and I can see Gene and Paul hedging their bets, especially with Aerosmith on after them (who was EN FUEGO on that tour; they were really at their peak at that point).
There's bunch of ways to set up triggers, but basically most of the time it works like this - the most common trigger I see drummers use is on the kick drum, Blob already mentioned why, a lot of bands struggle to replicate studio kick sounds in a live setting so it sounds good and cuts through a mix. Because of that, triggers are used. The trigger is basically a device that works similar to a mic that has been gated. When the trigger recognizes a sound (made by the drummer hitting that particular drum) it makes whatever sound it's programmed to make. Usually, a sound guy will blend the mic and trigger sound together so what the audience is hearing is a mixture of both. The benefit of this is regardless of the velocity the drummer hits, the trigger outputs the same level to the PA.
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Thank you sir! I learned something new today!
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Eric Carr was 1000x better than Peter Criss and should be mentioned in the other thread.
This.
He was one of the only exceptionally talented members in the history of the band. Maybe the only one.
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Eric Carr was excellent. Gave them a great kick up the ass. Creatures is just immense for a drum sound. Gone too soon and the fuck up Peter Criss is still with us... not that I wish death on him at all.
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I think you have to include all the members of KISS.
Gene is a poor bassist and terrible singer
Peter was a horrific drummer
Paul can't sing, and is a poor guitarist
Ace was always inconsistent and just slightly above average when he was sober and "on".
Collectively they made it work, and the theatrics sealed the deal. Without that we would never have heard of KISS.
And I was in the damn KISS ARMY! I loved that band, but had to admit they were none of them known for solid musicianship!
Strongly disagree with most of that. Gene has a really good lyrical McCartney-esque style to his bass playing and is known to be really proficient live.
Paul in his prime was one of the best rock singers and his voice held up fairly well up until just recently. He's also a good rhythm guitarist. Like Gene, could really hold it together live despite all the running around and theatrics.
Ace was inconsistent and a pretty mediocre guitarist, but had a real penchant for great melodies in his solos. Prime example of intuition overcoming technical proficiency (or lack thereof).
I do agree on Peter and that the theatrics is what made them famous. Also one of those bands that only worked because of the chemistry between the four guys. Still doesn't make them bad players.
I'm with Mosh. Most of that post was bollocks. Gene's voice is fine and he uses what he has well. His bass playing was cool for not being just your average root note chugging.
Paul Stanley was a great singer, especially in the 80s period. Now his voice has gone. He's old, it happens.
Someone has swallowed the anti KISS bias.
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Eric Carr was 1000x better than Peter Criss and should be mentioned in the other thread.
This.
He was one of the only exceptionally talented members in the history of the band. Maybe the only one.
Bruce Kulick is an excellent guitar player, and Eric Singer likewise on drums. Add to that one of the greatest front men in the history of rock, and I think you're seriously short shrifting that band.
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Vinnie Vincent was very talented but a head case.
Marc St. John was extremely talented but was held back by Gene and Paul and then the tendentious issues.
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Eric Carr was 1000x better than Peter Criss and should be mentioned in the other thread.
This.
He was one of the only exceptionally talented members in the history of the band. Maybe the only one.
Bruce Kulick is an excellent guitar player, and Eric Singer likewise on drums. Add to that one of the greatest front men in the history of rock, and I think you're seriously short shrifting that band.
He might be a "great front man" but he is by no means exceptionally talented.
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Paul Stanley was incredible vocally (not so much now with age and wear), a great composer, only an average guitarist. Still impressive considering how he moved around on stage. :lol
As much as I liked Eric Carr, imo Eric Singer is KISS's best drummer, and a really strong singer to boot. Bruce Kulick was an excellent guitarist who could keep up with the other players of the '80s, but also had the style to hold back, and could still fit the classic rock stuff well too. That Revenge era will always be my favourite. That was a hell of a hard rock band with a lot of talent. Eric Carr should have been put in the HOF with KISS though.
Marc St. John was extremely talented but was held back by Gene and Paul and then the tendentious issues.
I wouldn't say "held back" so much as "reined in". Listen to Animalize, and then realize that's the closest to melody that they could wrangle out of him. :lol What a shocker he had tendonitis issues. Left to his own, he would have been Michaelangelo Batio. Animalize still rocks though. Vinnie Vincent was good, but I actually prefer him for his composing contributions to the band, including a personal favourite, Unholy. :metal
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I'd say Vinnie Vincent was the most talented member in KISStory. His pre-KISS work shows a great sense of melody and some real strong songwriting. Eric Singer is easily the best drummer they ever had. Pete was good for a short period and Eric Carr (while one of my favorites) was indistinguishable from the glut of 80's drummers. Gene is a better bass player than credited and Ace influenced a generation of guitarists. Paul Stanley has THE most unique voice in rock (look at any KISS tribute band and the weak link is always the Paul). At his peak, he had power, range, and command. Now he sounds like an old chain-smoking bingo caller from the neighborhood VFW.
Speaking of luckiest musicians ever...I forgot Mark St. John but the less said, the better. He couldn't play the same solo twice and was lost live the few times he actually played. Thank the stars that Paul reigned him in...left to his own, you'd get garbage like White Tiger (which miraculously appeared while MSJ was in the throes of "reiter's syndrome").
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Yeah, you phrased it better than I did. Agree on everything you wrote Blob and Animalize is my favorite 80's Kiss Album. Second is Creatures.
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Paul Stanley was incredible vocally (not so much now with age and wear), a great composer, only an average guitarist. Still impressive considering how he moved around on stage. :lol
As much as I liked Eric Carr, imo Eric Singer is KISS's best drummer, and a really strong singer to boot. Bruce Kulick was an excellent guitarist who could keep up with the other players of the '80s, but also had the style to hold back, and could still fit the classic rock stuff well too. That Revenge era will always be my favourite. That was a hell of a hard rock band with a lot of talent. Eric Carr should have been pu
Marc St. John was extremely talented but was held back by Gene and Paul and then the tendentious issues.
I wouldn't say "held back" so much as "reined in". Listen to Animalize, and then realize that's the closest to melody that they could wrangle out of him. :lol What a shocker he had tendonitis issues. Left to his own, he would have been Michaelangelo Batio. Animalize still rocks though. Vinnie Vincent was good, but I actually prefer him for his composing contributions to the band, including a personal favourite, Unholy. :metalt in the HOF with KISS though.
His vocal abilities are undeniable, but other than that there was nothing extraordinary about him. Like you said, an average guitarist. He was more a showman than anything. Like David Lee Roth but with better vocal abilities.
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Paul Stanley was incredible vocally (not so much now with age and wear), a great composer, only an average guitarist. Still impressive considering how he moved around on stage. :lol
As much as I liked Eric Carr, imo Eric Singer is KISS's best drummer, and a really strong singer to boot. Bruce Kulick was an excellent guitarist who could keep up with the other players of the '80s, but also had the style to hold back, and could still fit the classic rock stuff well too. That Revenge era will always be my favourite. That was a hell of a hard rock band with a lot of talent. Eric Carr should have been pu
Marc St. John was extremely talented but was held back by Gene and Paul and then the tendentious issues.
I wouldn't say "held back" so much as "reined in". Listen to Animalize, and then realize that's the closest to melody that they could wrangle out of him. :lol What a shocker he had tendonitis issues. Left to his own, he would have been Michaelangelo Batio. Animalize still rocks though. Vinnie Vincent was good, but I actually prefer him for his composing contributions to the band, including a personal favourite, Unholy. :metalt in the HOF with KISS though.
His vocal abilities are undeniable, but other than that there was nothing extraordinary about him. Like you said, an average guitarist. He was more a showman than anything. Like David Lee Roth but with better vocal abilities.
Look, convincing someone of something like this is like convincing someone that soup is cake. It's impossible. But I think you're way off with Paul. He carried that band - one of the biggest in the world for a number of years - while Gene was off being Gene. He wrote well more than half the catalogue, he carried the live shows, he played rock solid rhythm guitar while being the primary showman, and did much of the design work for the band (as well as producing a lot of the post-makeup material). There are a SHIT TON of people that wish they were as talented as Paul, and wish they could write even one "Detroit Rock City", let alone a couple dozen.
And no shit, don't mock me here, but he's a hell of a painter (I have a signed Paul Stanley in my living room. "Karma". It is one of only two or three things I made non-negotiable in my divorce).
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Personally I think Mark St. John is a joke. I think there's more to the story than "Reiter's Syndrome" and while I'm sad he's dead, I am not sad at all that he is a footnote in Kiss history. If I see one more pose of him like this:
(https://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/Stadler111/M%20St%20John_zpsw8bj1exo.jpg) (https://s1165.photobucket.com/user/Stadler111/media/M%20St%20John_zpsw8bj1exo.jpg.html)
I'm not even sure what that fingering sounds like.
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That used to be a thing, that guitarists would take promo shots with ridiculous fingerings.
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That used to be a thing, that guitarists would take promo shots with ridiculous fingerings.
And the same for Penthouse.
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This thread got me listening to my Van Halen records again to focus on Michael Anthony,
He really does not just chug on the root notes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uiqgwUs1l4).
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That used to be a thing, that guitarists would take promo shots with ridiculous fingerings.
And the same for Penthouse.
Nicely done.
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This thread got me listening to my Van Halen records again to focus on Michael Anthony,
He really does not just chug on the root notes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uiqgwUs1l4).
Problem is, it's not always him playing. Ed played a LOT of bass in Van Halen, especially after the first couple albums.
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The luckiest musicians.....
those who played with, and got a bump from
Bob Seger
as well as Ron Wood and Keith Richards
Anyone that had the opportunity to have the musicians from 'The Wrecking Crew' or Muscle Shoals play as session musicians for them. Those lists are endless+
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The end was not the kindest, but put Freddie Mercury on the list of luckiest musicians. Read his biography, and you would understand my reasoning. Father has the money and means to get his family out of a bloody revolution in Zanzibar, and moves to London. His first two or three bands fail, but he starts following a band named 'Smile'. Tim Staffell grows tired of the band's lack of success soon afterwards.
Brian May and Roger Taylor see 'something' in this guy. Once onboard, they wanted to name the band 'Rich Kidz', but Freddie pushes the name 'Queen'. With all the connotations, and considering the times, that is one ballsy move. After a couple of bassists did not work out, a quiet bass player named John Deacon is welcomed aboard.
One could say Brian was lucky to have accepted the 'Ginger Baker style' drummer from the ad placed to get Roger. Roger was 'lucky' enough to have read the ad, and then been good enough to be accepted by Brian and Tim.
Sidenotes: we hosted two South Korean college students a few weekends ago. For 'American' culture on our last day together, I played about ten tracks from the 'Live at Wembley' DVD. They both recognized all of the songs, other than the 'sing a long' after 'A Kind of Magic'. And then they asked to have it played again. [btw, they watched a LOT of football on divisional weekend, at our home and a sports bar].
Two years ago, four Russian guys came to a Megabus to get to NYC. Problem was, that spot was for Philly. Their bus was leaving in five minutes. I kissed my wife, they threw their bags in the trunk, we piled into the car, and I sped the two miles to try and get them there in time. The 'Live at Milton Keynes' disc was playing in the car, the song being 'Crazy Little Thing Called Love'. They all went 'Ready, Freddie' at the appropriate time, I got them to the bus 30 seconds before it was going to leave, they handed me what turned out to be around $70 US currency, and we all have a story to tell.
oh, and I got lucky to be married to my wife of 15 years, because of our love of Queen.
geesh, I am rambling. Guess this part could make for a different thread.
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Chris Wolstenholme & Dominic Howard.
Same here, both are good musicians, but it's really Bellamy's singing, guitar & piano playing, as well as his songs that make Muse good. I hate to say it, but they could be replaced by any good drummer or bass player, because I wouldn't say their playing is very characteristic. If two complete other guys had formed the band with Matt, I think they would have gained the same success.
Disclaimer: I know next to nothing about Muse, I've only listened to a couple of albums. Tried to get into them many times but they never click for me other than a handful of songs. With all of this I mean I could be way off.
Of these two I think the drummer is the luckiest guy. The bass is certainly recognizable, even if just for the fuzzy tone it often has, but the drums are absolutely terrible. I don't think I've heard a Muse drum fill or pattern that caught my attention and I think I saw parts of a live show once and the drummer didn't look natural on the drums at all. It might have been a bad show or I may be misremembering though.