DM, I saw Savatage once, and you were 5 years old! :lol
Very informative couple of posts DMS. Looking forward to the start and listen-thru beginning tomorrow.
Question... Are you going to also do the TSO albums as part of this?
I've actually never heard a lick of Sirens, but that will change tomorrow. And thank you for mentioning Alice Cooper. I'm probably DTF's biggest Alice fan and I can hear his influence clearly on the stuff that I have heard.
Especially on Believe.
This is a raw, heavy and very good metal album IMO. Lots of good songs here.
Just listened to Sirens.
Interesting. I know if I had come across this in 1983, I would've been all over it. The vocals are fine, save for Out In The Streets.
Best song to me on first listen was I Believe. It's awesome.
You can tell that this band has a ton of potential.
Serioulsy though, there was no chatter about Savatage back then. I see J Dude heard them , but where I was..nope.
All NWOBHM bands cite UFO and Deep Purple as influences.
I really dig the three demos at the end of the "silver addition" CD. "Metalhead" has some really incendiary soloing by Criss and overall "Before I Hang" is fantastic...especially after repeated listens. "Stranger in the Dark" is surprisingly soulful. All three deserved better production and a full release.
IMO.
Going to listen to Dungeons in the morning. Not totally familiar with it.
Yeah, I'll talk about bonus tracks a bit later (tonight, maybe) when I have the time, but all those tracks from the Silver Edition are excellent. I usually save "Before I Hang" for my extended version of Streets, because one of the tracks that was cut from that album, "Beyond Broadway", was actually a lyrical re-write of "Before I Hang." My personal choices to round out The Dungeons are Calling to full album length are "Metalhead", "Stranger in the Dark" and a slow, doomy song called "No More Saturday Nights" that was written back in the Avatar days, and later dusted off and demoed up around '85.
Yeah, I'll talk about bonus tracks a bit later (tonight, maybe) when I have the time, but all those tracks from the Silver Edition are excellent. I usually save "Before I Hang" for my extended version of Streets, because one of the tracks that was cut from that album, "Beyond Broadway", was actually a lyrical re-write of "Before I Hang." My personal choices to round out The Dungeons are Calling to full album length are "Metalhead", "Stranger in the Dark" and a slow, doomy song called "No More Saturday Nights" that was written back in the Avatar days, and later dusted off and demoed up around '85.
I just YT that song. :omg: :metal
Yeah, I'll talk about bonus tracks a bit later (tonight, maybe) when I have the time, but all those tracks from the Silver Edition are excellent. I usually save "Before I Hang" for my extended version of Streets, because one of the tracks that was cut from that album, "Beyond Broadway", was actually a lyrical re-write of "Before I Hang." My personal choices to round out The Dungeons are Calling to full album length are "Metalhead", "Stranger in the Dark" and a slow, doomy song called "No More Saturday Nights" that was written back in the Avatar days, and later dusted off and demoed up around '85.
I just YT that song. :omg: :metal
There's a nice well produced version of that song on the "with bonus track" disc of JOP's Global Warning.
The title track is just killer.
The title track is just killer.
I always loved the first three tracks , but found the rest a bit up and down. Great album but I always thought HoTMK was a big step up.
So I guess we are done with Dungeons, too? Because I'm planning on doing my write up for Power of the Night tomorrow.
Yeah, I'll talk about bonus tracks a bit later (tonight, maybe) when I have the time, but all those tracks from the Silver Edition are excellent.
So I guess we are done with Dungeons, too? Because I'm planning on doing my write up for Power of the Night tomorrow.
Actually, I've been waiting for this:Yeah, I'll talk about bonus tracks a bit later (tonight, maybe) when I have the time, but all those tracks from the Silver Edition are excellent.
I don't take too much notice of lyrics, unless they are truly awful or awesome
Just had a listen to POTN for the first time in a long time. I find it just a solid and very enjoyable metal record. Drops off slightly after the excellent Fountain of Youth, but a great step up form FFTR, and a perfect stepping stone to Mountain King.
Criss' solo in In My Dream, could be one of his most underrated and forgotten solos, fucking incredible.
Just had a listen to POTN for the first time in a long time. I find it just a solid and very enjoyable metal record. Drops off slightly after the excellent Fountain of Youth, but a great step up form FFTR, and a perfect stepping stone to Mountain King.
Criss' solo in In My Dream, could be one of his most underrated and forgotten solos, fucking incredible.
I had a sneaky listen last night and enjoyed it alot more than I remember. The guitar tone was shitty though.
It seems to me the trebly guitar tone is something 80's engineers were going for, don't you think? I've gotten used to hearing similar tones from that era.
I've never made it all the way through FFTR. I'm saving my listen to that for next week's installment. I'll keep an ear out for the tone.
I think the big problem was the label expecting Savatage to be a hit at all. They weren't going to be MTV darlings - they didn't have the looks or image for that. They should have been marketed more in the heavier direction with the Thrash bands or maybe Queensryche and the label should have been happy with the "cult" status that would afford. They were never going to be Poison/ Bon Jovi / Def Leppard and to think they were their label must have been snorting some good stuff.
Other than Metallica who had to dilute their sound to do it, I can't think of any bands as heavy as Savatage that had any mainstream success.
At this time, Metallica were still pretty underground.
WASP gained their popularity by being a total gimmick band. Savatage, up to this point were a band stuck in the middle, similar to Armored Saint. They weren't Hair, Thrash, they had nowhere to fit in.
And frankly, Queesryche were so much better and brought a fresher take on the music.
At this time, Metallica were still pretty underground.
WASP gained their popularity by being a total gimmick band. Savatage, up to this point were a band stuck in the middle, similar to Armored Saint. They weren't Hair, Thrash, they had nowhere to fit in.
And frankly, Queesryche were so much better and brought a fresher take on the music.
Well Master of Puppets did crack the top 40 and was their first album to go gold and platinum, so while they were still underground at the time, they were starting to break big around this time period. And yeah, with WASP it was the gimmick that helped to sell them. The Armored Saint comparison is pretty accurate. I think they fell into the same awkward niche as Savatage.
Concerning Queensryche, I think as far as developing the basis of what later became progressive metal, Queensryche was a bit ahead of the curve compared to Savatage or Fates Warning. Even on 1984's The Warning, they were showing some progressive nuances, and had gone full blown art-rock on Rage for Order in 1986. Savatage didn't even start to dabble in progressive influences until Hall of the Mountain King in 1987, and it really wasn't until 1989's Gutter Ballet and 1991's Streets that they went full on progressive metal, at which point, Queensryche had already done Operation: Mindcrime and Empire. There is a reason why Savatage, despite contributing so much to the early development of progressive metal, aren't seen as iconic to the genre as Queensryche.
As for Fates Warning, while they are certainly one of the founding fathers of progressive metal as well, they also kind of fell into the same niche status as Savatage back in the 80's. I think the main reason why their role in the history of progressive metal isn't considered as debatable as much as that of Savatage is because Dream Theater, the band that really made progressive metal into a legitimate sub-genre of it's own right, always cited Fates Warning, and Queensryche, as primary influences. Savatage was never really an influence on Dream Theater, and with DT being the band that basically set a lot of standards for what progressive metal really was, Savatage was kind of forgotten. It hasn't been until relatively recently that Savatage's contribution to the development of progressive metal is starting to be properly acknowledged.
I don't really have an issue with them being called prog metal, but it's borderline.
I don't really have an issue with them being called prog metal, but it's borderline.
Not to get too far off track, but I'm a little surprised there wasn't a single video for anything off of power of the night. Seems to me like a new band with a seven album deal at the height of the MTV craze should've made a video almost mandatory.
Heck, Raven got almost zero promotion around that same time and even they got one music video out of it.
Middleton get the pleasure of opening up the next song, “Legions”, with a groovy thumbing bass riff while Criss layers on some particularly atmospheric guitar licks before Jon's shrieks bring the song into a thunderous pace. The riffs in this song are especially satisfying, the band again working in perfectly aligned precision. Criss gives one of his most inspiring solos on the album in this song, his shredding driven forward by a building, inexorable pace. Jon settles in for a bit more lower register work on this one, and proves that he is just as good in his lower octaves as he is belting it out at the top of his lungs. “Legions” displays a Savatage with an all new sense of subtlety that belies the sinister nature of the track, making it just as effective as the likes of, say, “City Beneath the Surface”.
this album is the beginning of a 3 album run that I would say is only matched by 2 or 3 other bands in terms of the amount of airplay/influence in my life.WOW!!
this album is the beginning of a 3 album run that I would say is only matched by 2 or 3 other bands in terms of the amount of airplay/influence in my life.WOW!!
this album is the beginning of a 3 album run that I would say is only matched by 2 or 3 other bands in terms of the amount of airplay/influence in my life.WOW!!
I haven't had time to read the whole DM post (thanks in advance - I know it'll be :tup ) but just wanted to note that this album is the beginning of a 3 album run that I would say is only matched by 2 or 3 other bands in terms of the amount of airplay/influence in my life. Great, great album.
When this album came out my musical attention was being drawn away from heavy metal. I wasn't into hair metal, like at all, and barely into Thrash -- only Metallica had captured my imagination there. Iron Maiden still had me enthralled and Dio had started to loose me at Sacred Heart a couple of years earlier.
This was me too. Although I liked Dream Evil.
I can't believe noone sent it to me in my roulette.
Here is where it really started. HotMK always feels like the debut of Savatage for me. Here they lay the foundation for the greatness that was to come.
I was 19, old man! ;D
When I heard "24 Hours Ago" on Z-ROCK (RIP) it totally resuscitated my love for metalZ-ROCK was indirectly responsible for me becoming a Savatage fan. I was driving through Cincinnati in 1992, tuned to the local Z-ROCK station and heard a really kick-ass song called "Pull Me Under". When I got home, I immediately went to Cut Corner Records to pick up Images & Words. While I was there, I grabbed a used copy of another album that had caught my eye: Gutter Ballet.
Here is where it really started. HotMK always feels like the debut of Savatage for me. Here they lay the foundation for the greatness that was to come.
Here is where it really started. HotMK always feels like the debut of Savatage for me. Here they lay the foundation for the greatness that was to come.
While there are a lot of metal fans who would disagree, I think Jon Oliva pretty much feels the same way as you do. He's often said that Savatage wasn't really Savatage until Paul came into the picture.
Here is where it really started. HotMK always feels like the debut of Savatage for me. Here they lay the foundation for the greatness that was to come.
While there are a lot of metal fans who would disagree, I think Jon Oliva pretty much feels the same way as you do. He's often said that Savatage wasn't really Savatage until Paul came into the picture.
Was thinking this as I ran through FFTR, HOTMK, and GB yesterday. Savatage was really directionless until HOTMK. The music really comes across that way.
Here is where it really started. HotMK always feels like the debut of Savatage for me. Here they lay the foundation for the greatness that was to come.
While there are a lot of metal fans who would disagree, I think Jon Oliva pretty much feels the same way as you do. He's often said that Savatage wasn't really Savatage until Paul came into the picture.
Was thinking this as I ran through FFTR, HOTMK, and GB yesterday. Savatage was really directionless until HOTMK. The music really comes across that way.
I think in the early days, they were just a bunch of kids in their 20's that just wanted to play some loud and raucous heavy metal, and they weren't really thinking of anywhere to go beyond that. Some of the tracks from Fight for the Rock, like "Edge of Midnight" and "Lady in Disguise" foreshadow the direction they would later take with Paul, so I think they at least had those inclinations in them before O'Neill stepped into the picture. The ultimate failure of Fight for the Rock, however, essentially demonstrated that they really had no idea of how to branch out from the niche they had established for themselves by 1986. They needed someone like Paul who could give them the confidence to try new things, like incorporating classical music on Hall of the Mountain King, or Broadway influences on Gutter Ballet, to give the band a strong sense of direction and identity. Jon and Criss grew up in a musical household, so they were exposed to classical music at a young age, and both of them were huge fans of Queen, so those influences were always with them. It just seemed as if they didn't believe a heavy metal band could get away with grand experiments like Gutter Ballet and Streets until Paul told them it was ok.
I'll have to read DM's writeup later, but this album is absolutely incredible, perfect.
I'll have to read DM's writeup later, but this album is absolutely incredible, perfect.
And apparently I'm in the minority but Jon is just not strong enough vocally to carry When The Crowds Are Gone. That said, my favorite moment of Jon's singing that I have heard so far is the beginning of Mentally Yours.
Hounds is a cool tune. Not a fan of the Title track. Great guitar on this album.
And apparently I'm in the minority but Jon is just not strong enough vocally to carry When The Crowds Are Gone.
I think my two favourites are Gutter Ballet and Hounds too. The change in pace from Criss at the end of Hounds is fantastic - similar to what he does in the solo section of Follow Me.
And apparently I'm in the minority but Jon is just not strong enough vocally to carry When The Crowds Are Gone.
You are not totally wrong, but the fact that the vocal delivery isn't perfect in an "obvious" sense is one factor that makes this song so great for me. It's just that much more emotional.
And apparently I'm in the minority but Jon is just not strong enough vocally to carry When The Crowds Are Gone.
You are not totally wrong, but the fact that the vocal delivery isn't perfect in an "obvious" sense is one factor that makes this song so great for me. It's just that much more emotional.
Yeah, I get that. And I'm even taking that into account. But for me, there's still a disconnect of some sort.
Temptation Revelation is a great track. I would have had that on my tattoo but it was too long so went with Silk & Steel!
Temptation Revelation is a great track. I would have had that on my tattoo but it was too long so went with Silk & Steel!
I don't know. I always thought he was using his voice to portray a character and the performance was deliberate. He's a broken down performer lamenting his glory days decrying his loneliness. Or so it seems to me.
I don't know. I always thought he was using his voice to portray a character and the performance was deliberate. He's a broken down performer lamenting his glory days decrying his loneliness. Or so it seems to me.
Jon Oliva was never one of my favorite singers. And I'm sure at one time I thought "I bet they'd even be bigger if they switched vocalists." Then they did. And I just wanted Jon back.
Perhaps a compromise is Doctor Butcher, JOP, Jon solo kept in this thread, considering he has been a core writer of Savatage from the beginning.
No worries, DM. Enjoy the concerts!
enjoy the shows.......I'm checking out SX on Sunday
I love DM's writeups not just for the treasure trove of information they contain... but because they make me go back and listen to each Savatage album all the way through! :lol
Well done again my friend.
Damn, that's a lot of words, brother! :lol
I have a day off on Wednesday, so I should be able to read the writeup and listen to the album. I have listened to it once about 5 or 6 years ago, and I don't remember a thing about it.
Other then "Jesus Saves" and "Believe", there are few songs on there that stand out at first glance. Like many concept albums, it is definitely a case of the whole being greater then the sum of the parts
THAAAAAAAAAAAAAT COULD BE MEEEEEE!!!!! OOOHHHHH YEAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!
Other then "Jesus Saves" and "Believe", there are few songs on there that stand out at first glance. Like many concept albums, it is definitely a case of the whole being greater then the sum of the parts
I generally dislike concept albums for that very reason - I want the songs to stand on their own for the most part. And in the case of Streets, although not quite as popular with me as Gutter Ballet and HOTMK , I think most of the songs stand up well.
I would like songs like Ghost In The Ruins for instance whether it was part of a concept or not.
Did anyone pick up the re-released version from a couple of years ago with the narration? Interesting compared to the original. Feels bloody weird though having DT Jesus instead of Jesus Saves.
Did anyone pick up the re-released version from a couple of years ago with the narration? Interesting compared to the original. Feels bloody weird though having DT Jesus instead of Jesus Saves.
Haven't listened to the whole thing, just the new tracks. Waiting for the TSO Gutter Ballet though.
I tend to listen to whole albums so I don't mind if they stand alone at all.
Did anyone pick up the re-released version from a couple of years ago with the narration? Interesting compared to the original. Feels bloody weird though having DT Jesus instead of Jesus Saves.
Haven't listened to the whole thing, just the new tracks. Waiting for the TSO Gutter Ballet though.
Oh is this the original broadway version or something?
wait another 5 or 6 years after Letter from the Labyrinth before we get Romanov, and then another 5 or 6 years before Gutter Ballet.
Great work again Dark MAster, especially with how the demos fit etc.
When I was looking for the words to go on the scroll of my tattooI would have went with "Under Construction". I know so many people (myself included) that had moments where they thought about getting a tattoo but really weren't sure what they wanted. Reminds me of "website under construction". I want *that*, and I'm kinda making a commitment, but not really :metal
And we got this bluesy guy.I feel for Zak the way I do about DT12. I'm glad it exists, but not exactly what I would have wanted. Better than nothing.
Anyway, great album and the last one that really grabbed me under the Sava name.I was rediscovering Criss at the same time as I was rediscovering Skolnick. And it seemed like within days of my rediscovery, Criss died. So it was kind of strange that Skolnick was the replacement, because he was the other guy I was thinking "wow. These two guys are amazing. I knew I liked them, but learning some of their work takes it to a whole new level." Even though Criss was my favorite part of Savatage, I was surprised how much I liked Handful of Rain. I even saw them live at a small club in 1994. Jon was coming back in the band, Skolnick was there, Zak was there. It was an awesome show and because it was a small club, I was right up on the stage.
As it is I like Zach but he wasn't what I had envisioned when I bought of the band with another singer. I was thinking generic metal vocals I guess, a Kiske, Tate, Dickinson type. And we got this bluesy guy.
It would be interesting, as others have mentioned, to hear what direction Savatage would have taken, if Criss was still alive. But sadly, we can only speculate.
Imagine that official lineup; Criss, Jon, Zak, Chris, Johnny and Doc! :hefdaddy
So, in short, had Criss lived, I believe Savatage still would have gone down much the same road they did anyways, the only difference being that the guitars would have been much more prominent in the songwriting process.
Great live album
It would have been nice to have more older material included, but still awesome release.
I bought that double best of a few years back because it had the dvd of this show; it ended up being region specific and wouldn't play
Oh I've got a HUGE complaint about this album.
I bought this album for *one reason*. To hear Chance performed live.
...biggest case of aural "blue ball" in my entire life.
And I think I read somewhere that Skolnick wasn't really into touring and playing with Savatage, that he regarded it just as a chance to make some money after he left Testament and that that is the main reason he didn't bother staying close to Criss' solos. Is that a rumor or is there some truth to it?
I knew I was heading in a different direction from the band, but I just didn't know where. For some reason, joining Savatage just didn't feel right. I'm not sure why that is ... It wasn't one particular thing. Maybe I felt I needed to ... be one of the main creative voices in the band. If I had stayed with Savatage, I wouldn't have been.
Q: Why did Alex change a lot of Criss’s solos when he played them live?
A: Jon had told Alex to handle the solos anyway he wanted to, so Alex decide to change them around. Unfortunately a large portion of the fan based didn’t appreciate this! One person was especially annoyed, Chris Caffery. Chris vowed to come back to Savatage and play the solos the way the were played by Criss. Chris made good on his vow.
Only live album I have by the band is the Ghost In The Ruins tribute to Criss.
Dead Winter Dead write up coming tomorrow. Given that this is a) my favourite album by the band, b) creatively marks the apex of the musical direction they took once they started working with Paul, c) directly led to the birth of TSO, d) turned the band into a legitimate phenomena in Europe, and a multitude of other reasons I will explore tomorrow, I should have a lot to say about this record.
The only thing I wished was that Al seemed to handle 90% of the leads on this and Magellan. I wish they were more evenly split, and I think the title track here was the only Caffery solo. Am I right DM, and do you know why that is? I always thought because Caffery would handle all of Criss' solos live, so it would kind of split them evenly in a live setting. Could be way off though.
Looking forward to it! And take the opportunity to say that I've been enjoying your writing in this thread a lot lately. DWD is my favourite album by the band as well.
WOW, that was a mouthful! Very bummed to check my iPod to see that I do not have DWD on it.
As it happened, the only thing that prevented the track from becoming an even bigger hit was the reluctance of more mainstream radio stations to play a song by an 80's metal band.
While “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” would reach only moderate success as a Savatage single, the way radio stations with less qualms about playing unfashionable music had just picked up the song with little to no prodding inspired Paul O'Neill to write a Christmas rock opera that was later released under the name “Trans-Siberian Orchestra”; in reality Savatage with a multitude of guest singers. “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” was taken unaltered from the Dead Winter Dead sessions and included as the centrepiece of the new project's debut record, Christmas Eve and Other Stories, this time released properly as a single with an accompanying video. The record would go triple platinum in the United States alone. While the band was certainly happy to finally be experiencing some real success, the fact that it was accomplished under a different name, and with a Savatage song no less, would always annoy Jon Oliva immensely. The ease with which Trans-Siberian Orchestra was able to break through to mainstream stardom when Savatage had struggled for over a decade would be the first indication to Jon Oliva that perhaps Savatage itself was unmarketable. “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” was a great triumph, but the fact that a whole new band identity needed to be created to make it into such a success boded ill for the continuation of Savatage as a band and brand name.
This is why, when someone says something like "That new Dream Theater (or Queensryche, etc.) song could be a hit if it it's marketed correctly," they are usually wrong. The radio programmers already have an idea of these bands as has-beens, and often won't even listen to the song in question before deciding they're not going to play it. It's very rare for a band whose popularity has waned to get a second chance.
Having my very first listen to Dead Winter Dead. Damn, this is one heck of an album. Really interesting and I think it could only get better with more listens.
Some comments.
I think with the two short instrumentals opening the album and the relatively slow This Is The Time, it feels like this album takes a while to kick in. This Is The Time feels like it'd be a great album closer.
I Am and Doesn't Matter Anyway absolutely remind me of Alice Cooper. Even King Diamond. Brings to mind Alice's Brutal Planet.
Starlight has some great guitar work and I like this track a lot.
This Isn't What We Want and M&M to me are skippable at this point. I'm sure they get better with time.
I like Memory a lot, but when DWD kicks in, although it's not a bad riff, it feels a bit chugging and sucks the energy out of Memory's grand build up. But the track turns into one big guitar-gasm.
One Child is really cool. Can't wait to dig deeper into it.
Christmas Eve/Sarajevo -Amazing. Of course I'm already familiar with this. Still cannot believe this is Savatage.
Not What You See- Not really a fan. This was the kind of shlock that kept me from getting into Savatage in the first place. Drop This Is The Time here and I'm good. Great solo though.
Though it may not happen until Christmas, I may actually pick this up. Dark Master, thanks for the inspiration to give this a listen. I enjoyed it. A little choppy at times, but pretty solid.
I do see what your saying after the intros then This is the Time, it can seem like the album takes a bit long to really get going.
I do see what your saying after the intros then This is the Time, it can seem like the album takes a bit long to really get going.
Yeah, that's all I'm really saying. Not a criticism, but more of just a thought.
Like as DM says, it is tragic and heartfelt, and feels like a great finale. Feels like a culmination.
Brilliant live album this. Every Savatage fan needs it. Brilliant performances on every song.
I never had a problem with the set for Japan 94 either, I think it flowed well.
I have a hard time with live albums that are mashups of so many different shows.
(I was having kind of a "bleh" day when I wrote it),
(I was having kind of a "bleh" day when I wrote it),
Yeah, I could tell. Only 10,000 words in that post! :lol
(I was having kind of a "bleh" day when I wrote it),
Yeah, I could tell. Only 10,000 words in that post! :lol
Was about to post pretty much the same thing. :lol
(I was having kind of a "bleh" day when I wrote it),
Yeah, I could tell. Only 10,000 words in that post! :lol
Was about to post pretty much the same thing. :lol
but Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins seemed more like an obligatory release, almost as if the band felt they needed to have a live album with Jon on vocals, Criss on guitar, and Wacholz on drums.
I find it amazing that bands simply do not have a number of shows in the can.
However, I do think Savatage had a decent shot at a big hit in 1995, and here's why:
As it was, the song did rather well, even in 1995. It tends to get overlooked, but “Christmas Eve (Sarajavo 12/24)” did get a decent amount of airplay when released as Savatage. Part of the problem, I think, is that aside from the resistance that some more mainstream radio stations displayed against playing music from an 80's metal band, there was also the fact that Savatage was completely unprepared to support it as a single.
If they had promoted that single properly and it had became a bigger hit for Savatage, I'm not sure if this hadn't backfired on them in the long run. The song Christmas Eve is like nothing they have done before and is more of an atypical Savatage song. So there would be a lot of people who are surprised/shocked/disappointed when they hear the rest of Savatage's music. It's like "More Than Words" and Extreme. Everybody wanted to hear that song but nobody wanted to hear what they normally do.
A more metal TSO with Zak and Jon singing would have been right up my alley and increased my interest in TSO 100X more
A more metal TSO with Zak and Jon singing would have been right up my alley and increased my interest in TSO 100X more
Same. I'm not big into TSO at all.
But then again if they catered to us few for a heavier TSO, I think they wouldn't have been nearly as successful. So the formula they came up with, I think they made the right decision.
I've seen TSO live on two occasions and without question, they come off much better in a live setting. One of the coolest shows I've ever seen.
Great job again DM!
And again, thank you all for your interest in this thread. ;)Thank you for making it interesting.
Turns To Me, Morning Sun, the title track and The Storm are my favs.
Will listen to Magellan tomorrow.
Even moreso then Dead Winter Dead, The Wake of Magellan would draw a great dividing line through the Savatage fanbase. For the band's younger and more progressively inclined fans, as well as their European and other audiences overseas, The Wake of Magellan would mark an apotheosis for Savatage as their popularity soared to unimaginable heights and the band could now command the respect reserved for heavy metal's most elite. But for Savatage's older and more metal fans, The Wake of Magellan would be the last straw. Their patience stretched to the limit by rock operas and symphonic dabblings, the metal purists among the Savatage faithful had finally reached their breaking point. Savatage had grown so far beyond their roots, they were now completely unrecognizable. The band found themselves in the uncomfortable position of have to choose between whether to cater to their older, more metal oriented fans or their newer fans of symphonic metal opera.
I think Welcome is a great piece. I think The Ocean as the first track is amazing.
I think Welcome is a great piece.
I cannot understand why an old school Savatage fan would have an issue with TWOM.
For those sorts of fans, any version of Savatage after Streets, and especially after Edge of Thorns, was illegitimate.
I might be a dissenting voice here but I was underwhelmed by this album at the time and I wasn't too upset when they called it a day as it had been a case of dwindling returns for me for several years.
I don't remember much about the album other than not liking CommisR and I Seek Power, and nothing really stood out.
I got the special edition in the box with a poster and a photo supposed to be of the girl in the story in a bikini.
I listened to it again at the start of this discog thread and it was still pretty meh..
I did really enjoy the TSO beethovens Last Night album, though with each TSO albums there are the Broadway voices I can't stand.
How are you guys disappointed by it? IMHO it's one of the best metal albums out there... that being said I haven't listened to much other Savatage stuff...I might be a dissenting voice here but I was underwhelmed by this album at the time and I wasn't too upset when they called it a day as it had been a case of dwindling returns for me for several years.
I don't remember much about the album other than not liking CommisR and I Seek Power, and nothing really stood out.
I got the special edition in the box with a poster and a photo supposed to be of the girl in the story in a bikini.
I listened to it again at the start of this discog thread and it was still pretty meh..
I did really enjoy the TSO beethovens Last Night album, though with each TSO albums there are the Broadway voices I can't stand.
I was also disappointed by P & M. I listened to it maybe three or four times when it came out and haven't listened to it since.
So if anyone was wondering where I have been for the past week or so, I got appendicitis the weekend after Thanksgiving and had to be hospitalized. I got out Monday and have gradually been getting better, but still feel rather crappy. I will post more of my thought on Poets and Madmen when I feel up to it.
So if anyone was wondering where I have been for the past week or so, I got appendicitis the weekend after Thanksgiving and had to be hospitalized. I got out Monday and have gradually been getting better, but still feel rather crappy. I will post more of my thought on Poets and Madmen when I feel up to it.
How are you guys disappointed by it? IMHO it's one of the best metal albums out there... that being said I haven't listened to much other Savatage stuff...I might be a dissenting voice here but I was underwhelmed by this album at the time and I wasn't too upset when they called it a day as it had been a case of dwindling returns for me for several years.
I don't remember much about the album other than not liking CommisR and I Seek Power, and nothing really stood out.
I got the special edition in the box with a poster and a photo supposed to be of the girl in the story in a bikini.
I listened to it again at the start of this discog thread and it was still pretty meh..
I did really enjoy the TSO beethovens Last Night album, though with each TSO albums there are the Broadway voices I can't stand.
I was also disappointed by P & M. I listened to it maybe three or four times when it came out and haven't listened to it since.
I will listen to all of the above this weekend.How are you guys disappointed by it? IMHO it's one of the best metal albums out there... that being said I haven't listened to much other Savatage stuff...I might be a dissenting voice here but I was underwhelmed by this album at the time and I wasn't too upset when they called it a day as it had been a case of dwindling returns for me for several years.
I don't remember much about the album other than not liking CommisR and I Seek Power, and nothing really stood out.
I got the special edition in the box with a poster and a photo supposed to be of the girl in the story in a bikini.
I listened to it again at the start of this discog thread and it was still pretty meh..
I did really enjoy the TSO beethovens Last Night album, though with each TSO albums there are the Broadway voices I can't stand.
I was also disappointed by P & M. I listened to it maybe three or four times when it came out and haven't listened to it since.
That last comment of yours is the key here. To me, and many others, it pales in comparison to most of their CDs. Check out The Wake of Magellan, Gutter Ballet, Streets, Edge of Thorns, Handful of Rain, etc.
I fucking love this album. It's absolutely brilliant.
I fucking love this album. It's absolutely brilliant.
Couldn't have said it better. Maybe it helped that I didn't know the circumstances when the album came out. i just enjoyed it for what it was, a very good metal record and one of Savatage's best.
Stay With Me Awhile, There In The Silence, Commissar, Drive, the anthemic Morphine Child and the closer Back To A Reason are just Savatage at it's best. If only they had continued making records like this.
Poets and Madmen write-up coming today. I'm hoping to have it done by the afternoon as I have to work this evening. In the event that I cannot finish it before I go to work, then I will post it later tonight before I go to sleep.
That will be a good read!
So if anyone was wondering where I have been for the past week or so, I got appendicitis the weekend after Thanksgiving and had to be hospitalized.Sorry to hear that. What stage was it at and how did everything go medically?
So if anyone was wondering where I have been for the past week or so, I got appendicitis the weekend after Thanksgiving and had to be hospitalized.Sorry to hear that. What stage was it at and how did everything go medically?