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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: bout to crash on May 10, 2015, 07:54:45 PM
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I mostly just need to vent here...
Long story that I'll try to make short:
I have a good friend who I slept with a couple of times (the last time was over a year ago). He's an amazing guy, I still find him attractive and whatnot but we just would never work as a couple (not to mention we're in different parts of the country) and our "history" was just fun and games.
He has a new girlfriend who seems very cool and they seem really happy together, which makes me and the rest of his friends happy (especially after he had a long string of bad luck with relationships). I've now met her twice- the first time was at a museum the last time I visited NJ (around Christmas). We were supposed to have a big group outing but it ended up only being me, my mom, him and her (the other 5 or so people cancelled). Slightly awkward because it was my first time meeting her and we were all clearly very tired from late nights and the holiday, but I thought things were cool.
Yesterday I saw her again, at a party. Context: I had been in NJ cleaning out a bunch of shit from my old bedroom in my mom's house, and a lot of my friends/family got "presents" from the pile of crap I was getting rid of. This guy got a book, a button, and a pair of furry handcuffs, still in the box, that I think I was given as a gag gift and never used (fur is for pansies). I knew his girlfriend would be at the party and I thought it would be funny to give him for that reason (and because I have a reputation among my friends as the sort of person who... well, who would own furry handcuffs). He laughed and made a joke about it and I didn't notice, but apparently she was pretty bothered by this (the hug goodbye I got from her later was really awkward). Turns out she knows about our "history" (had I known this of course I would have toned it down, but this was just normal behavior with me and my friends)- she had asked him whether there was anything between us after we met at the museum in December, because apparently she felt uncomfortable around me.
So anyway, I got this long message from him explaining all this, saying he wasn't mad, but that it was uncomfortable, etc. He also said that his girlfriend thinks I'm harboring feelings for him and thought I did this as a "move" to try and show her up, and basically asked me if that was true. I wrote him a long reply back saying that I didn't mean anything by it and it was supposed to be funny, that I wasn't harboring feelings for him, etc. I told him that with their permission I'd like to apologize to his girlfriend personally but I'm waiting to hear back, and I'm just hella embarrassed/uncomfortable now.
A few thoughts:
1. I'm just generally sort of a flirty person, with all of my friends (male, female, in between), and maybe he explained that to her but I'm not sure. Point is my making that type of gesture doesn't mean I'm into you, necessarily. In fact it usually doesn't because when I like a person in that way I get wayyy too shy to actually be that brazen.
2. What kind of a crazy bitch would I have to be to do that IN FRONT OF HER, IN PUBLIC WITH DOZENS OF PEOPLE AROUND, if I really had a thing for him?
3. Why do people have to be so uptight and insecure? Why does my having slept with your boyfriend long before you started dating have to make me a threat?
4. I live 1800 miles away, for fuck's sake.
Blah. I'm just embarrassed and worried that now this girl hates me when I tried to be cool and make her feel comfortable. He still hasn't replied to my message and it's bothering me.
(tl;dr version: my friend's girlfriend thinks I'm harboring feelings for him because of a sexy gag gift I gave him in front of her but that's really just my personality, and now I'm uncomfortable :facepalm:)
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I can address #2. Because I think everyone runs into it.
We think people "know us"...but that's an assumption. We know in our heart of hearts that we would never in a million years ever do [insert whatever]. But other people are not inside our heads. They can only extrapolate on things they've seen, and then overlay it on personal experiences....things they've seen other people do, or things they have had happen to them. Unless you scored 100% on the psychic test, pretty much best to assume that *no one* ever REALLY knows what you would or wouldn't do, or what you may or may not be feeling. That being said, it's a balancing act, because you can't spend life being paranoid as to what people might think.
I used to be a major flirt. It is really a part of who I am and I never mean anything by it. But it did get me in a lot of uncomfortable situations and created a lot of misunderstandings....so I really don't do it any more. It just created more problems than it was worth in my case. Your mileage may vary.
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Yeah, of course you're right about that. It was more of a hypothetical "Man, she really must think I'm crazy" :lol... I'm not a flirt to the extent that I would straight-up hit on my friend in front of his girlfriend. I'm just very casual about sex-type stuff and thought it would be funny to give him those as a gift. In any event, he did write back saying it was fine for me to contact her, so I wrote her sort of a long explanation of where I'm coming from and telling her I ain't be tryin' to steal her man and whatnot. We shall see!
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He also said that his girlfriend thinks I'm harboring feelings for him and thought I did this as a "move" to try and show her up, and basically asked me if that was true.
Leads me to believe that this is a problem that'll go away on its own. My experience has told me that people who have trouble handling exes have enough issues to cause myriad problems. Maturity, trust and self-esteem will make a helluva difference in any relationship, and lacking all of those will create a helluva mess. Either she's got her head screwed on straight and all of this will blow over (and probably should have by now), or she doesn't and will probably wind up out of the picture. There is of course a third option, which is that she's a basketcase and he sticks with her anyway, but I'm reckoning that the sort of guy you'd be long time friends/fuckbuddies with probably has a bit more going on upstairs than to deal with such nonsense. And if that third option is the case, then there's nothing you could have done to prevent it and nothing you can do about it; shit happens.
Honestly, I have very little regard for people who create situations like this (her, not you). In my family there are numerous examples of current SO's becoming dear friends with exes. Mature, intelligent people deal with exes just fine. Barring some real trauma there's really no reason not to other than personal failings.
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and I'm just hella embarrassed/uncomfortable now.
I just love it when non-Bay Area peeps use hella.
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Thoughts 2, 3 and 4 are all legit and what normal human being would think.
To be blunt;
*You were just being yourself. In no circumstance should anyone change or act any different just because of what someone might think, especially over something so light hearted and throw away.
*She sounds like a paranoid, controlling person anyway. If she isn't jealous of you, it won't take long until something else comes up for her to gripe at, just that sort of person.
*He should man up and tell her to quit her bitchin. He should know you as a person and expect something and told her to get over it. IMO, it's a joke that he contacted you in regards to how she felt. You both know there is nothing going on so he should set the record straight. IMO you shouldn't even have known about this. It's between them.
Lastly, don't feel bad or apologize for being yourself.
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Thoughts 2, 3 and 4 are all legit and what normal human being would think.
To be blunt;
*You were just being yourself. In no circumstance should anyone change or act any different just because of what someone might think, especially over something so light hearted and throw away.
*She sounds like a paranoid, controlling person anyway. If she isn't jealous of you, it won't take long until something else comes up for her to gripe at, just that sort of person.
*He should man up and tell her to quit her bitchin. He should know you as a person and expect something and told her to get over it. IMO, it's a joke that he contacted you in regards to how she felt. You both know there is nothing going on so he should set the record straight. IMO you shouldn't even have known about this. It's between them.
Lastly, don't feel bad or apologize for being yourself.
This.
And I think you should get black_floyd to mediate ;D
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:lol
Also just noticed this;
(and because I have a reputation among my friends as the sort of person who... well, who would own furry handcuffs).
Hell yeah!
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Did you see my explanation on why they're still in the box? :lol
Anyway, thanks for your input, y'all. I sent her a pretty long message just basically kind of explaining where I was at, and Facebook told me she read it but hasn't responded- I hate that!
She does not seem like a crazy person who's going to totally flip over this (that did happen to him with the last girl he got serious with, not involving me but another girl who he was maybe-too-honest about his history with), but I wanted her to know from a girl-to-girl viewpoint where things were at. I may have said too much in quantity, but I didn't say anything crazy. I was honest about the history between us (not in detail or anything) because I'm not gonna pretend like it isn't there, but I also told her I was very happy for him/them and hoping we could be friends. Now I'm going to worry obsessively about this but try not to :P
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Oh, forgot to reply to this specifically:
*He should man up and tell her to quit her bitchin. He should know you as a person and expect something and told her to get over it. IMO, it's a joke that he contacted you in regards to how she felt. You both know there is nothing going on so he should set the record straight. IMO you shouldn't even have known about this. It's between them.
Lastly, don't feel bad or apologize for being yourself.
Aww, thanks. Regarding that other point, he did tell her basically "That's Jackie, it's nothing, I really don't think she meant anything by it" but he said he felt like he should tell me about it and that she was a bit annoyed that he wasn't more bothered by it. You're right, it is between them (and who knows, she may get pissed at him for telling me/sparking my contacting her) but I'm hoping that my reaching out to her will help quelch some of the insecurities... again, unless it pisses her off, but it's totally between them at that point :lol
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Doesn't she realize, that with your stalker like fixation on me, you can't possibly have much leftover interest in her man? Some people.
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It may be that she feels insecure, or it may be because it sounds like they're still so new to each other that she doesn't totally trust or know in her heart where the relationships going, so she feels threatened. It could also be the fact that most people can't understand the whole friends with former lovers thing. I don't think most people have ever experienced that. Most people when they have a serious intimate relationship with someone can't just be friends, so in her mind, she can't comprehend that. My wife and I have been married for 13 years. I love her dearly and she's not insecure in the slightest, or really jealous for that matter. But about 5 years ago, a woman who I'd been engaged to in graduate school got divorced and within weeks sent me a Facebook friend request. I hadn't seen or spoken to her since the break-up which was over 25 years ago. At the time we each had some serious stressful things happen to us, and we weren't able to weather the storm. Sometimes lifes just unfair. My wife knew we'd once been engaged and the circumstances of the break up; and she knew we'd each definitely moved on. But she was really upset when she friended me. Granted, the timing was sorta strange following her divorce, but not really. And although my wife knows I'm here to stay, she still can't understand why my long ago ex would now want to be friends with me. To her, the break up should have ended it.
It doesn't help this girl was a model, who aged very well. :lol Very well. Even though my wife is gorgeous.
Besides you know women can get a tad catty when it comes to old girlfriends.
If you think it would make you feel better to clear the air, then by all means do so; but don't apologize for her hangups. Besides, he needs to reassure her. Not you.
Be you.
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Yeah, she seems to be somewhat insecure. About the 'people knowing how I am' : Just an example. I was a 'drummer' in a band for ten years with two guys and a female singer/rhythm guitarist. On a national holiday, I think it was after we split after just reaching ten years together, I thought the singer and I were pretty close. Not only as friends, we had had a 'fling' once while she was sitll in a relationship, but no harm done, we departed as friends and went on being in the band for about eight years after. At one point we were so close as friends we told eachother EVERYTHING, about my flipflop dingy relationship attempts, and hers with all the gory detail. So at this national holiday the bassplayer, me and her were at a party with some live bands. And we were joking and fooling around a bit. The weather was pretty nice, I had a few beers and I know she likes Tequila very much, she travelled to South America all the time, and such. So I go into the café and order her a Tequila, which set me back a bit, but nog big deal. (I must add that my girlfriend was present at the time, and thought nothing of it). So I come out with the glass of Tequila and try to give it to her. She acts like I want to attack her or something and runs off. Litterally runs off! I go WTF? and proceed to run after her, spilling Tequila and whatnot, first I'm laughing right? But she keeps backing off going 'no, I don't want to touch it, what did you do with it?" And by this time I'm really pissed off. Turns out, she thinks that I filled that tiny little glass with my own piss! I'm like WHAT?! You think I would do a thing like that to anyone, EVER?! By this time my gf, noticing I'm steaming, comes over and cools things down, but that really sort of messed up my day. How is it possible that after ten plus frigging years someone still doesn't know you to know I would never pull a prank like that? :huh:
Bottom line, no worries Jackie, you're cool.
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*You were just being yourself. In no circumstance should anyone change or act any different just because of what someone might think, especially over something so light hearted and throw away.
On this point, yes I agree that you didn't do anything wrong; always good to be yourself, and you weren't to know that she would be sensitive. But I do not agree at all that you should always whatever the hell you want and who cares what anyone else thinks. Being yourself also, presumably, means caring about other people and not wanting to upset them. So you did nothing wrong whatsoever here, but I think it's good that it got you thinking.
*She sounds like a paranoid, controlling person anyway. If she isn't jealous of you, it won't take long until something else comes up for her to gripe at, just that sort of person.
*He should man up and tell her to quit her bitchin. He should know you as a person and expect something and told her to get over it. IMO, it's a joke that he contacted you in regards to how she felt. You both know there is nothing going on so he should set the record straight. IMO you shouldn't even have known about this. It's between them.
I do not agree with any of this, other than the final bit that it's about them and not about you. But you seem to care about your friend and be happy that he's in this relationship, so it's not a bad thing if you want to do your bit to help. And if that means explaining yourself, then that's cool. I agree with wolfking that you shouldn't apologise for being yourself and being a bit silly/flirty, but there's nothing wrong with apologising for giving the wrong impression. She barely knows you, and so it's totally unfair to suggest that she's just being paranoid and he needs to just man up. Understanding other peoples' feelings is a pretty important part of any relationship.
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He has a new girlfriend who seems very cool and they seem really happy together, which makes me and the rest of his friends happy (especially after he had a long string of bad luck with relationships).
I think you should zero in on this. That not only are you not trying to break them up, but you were happy that he found somebody that has made him happy. What would make you happy is that continues and you can be there to share in it, as a friend.
I've now met her twice- the first time was at a museum the last time I visited NJ (around Christmas).
Point out that after you met her the first time, you felt comfortable enough to be yourself around her because she was so cool/nice/accepting of you. You were looking forward to being her long distance friend.
The fastest way to find some shared respect is to turn the tables and think of this as your boyfriend and she is the old casual girlfriend. It sounds very easy, but it is actually pretty difficult because it opens yourself up to vulnerability. And sometimes it leads you to the right answer, but it feels too compromising to accept it.
I don't see any problem with falling on your sword and apologizing for misreading the situation. Is that very temporary humiliation worse than possibly permanent damage to a long term relationship?
Sorry to not be as "you're totally in the right. The problem is all her." But I'm trying to think of this as more long term happiness for you instead of short term vindication.
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My only thought after reading the OP was: Their lack of self-esteem isn't your crisis!
Fucke 'em. Be yourself, love everyone, move on.
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*You were just being yourself. In no circumstance should anyone change or act any different just because of what someone might think, especially over something so light hearted and throw away.
On this point, yes I agree that you didn't do anything wrong; always good to be yourself, and you weren't to know that she would be sensitive. But I do not agree at all that you should always whatever the hell you want and who cares what anyone else thinks. Being yourself also, presumably, means caring about other people and not wanting to upset them. So you did nothing wrong whatsoever here, but I think it's good that it got you thinking.
*She sounds like a paranoid, controlling person anyway. If she isn't jealous of you, it won't take long until something else comes up for her to gripe at, just that sort of person.
*He should man up and tell her to quit her bitchin. He should know you as a person and expect something and told her to get over it. IMO, it's a joke that he contacted you in regards to how she felt. You both know there is nothing going on so he should set the record straight. IMO you shouldn't even have known about this. It's between them.
I do not agree with any of this, other than the final bit that it's about them and not about you. But you seem to care about your friend and be happy that he's in this relationship, so it's not a bad thing if you want to do your bit to help. And if that means explaining yourself, then that's cool. I agree with wolfking that you shouldn't apologise for being yourself and being a bit silly/flirty, but there's nothing wrong with apologising for giving the wrong impression. She barely knows you, and so it's totally unfair to suggest that she's just being paranoid and he needs to just man up. Understanding other peoples' feelings is a pretty important part of any relationship.
In regards to the first comment, what you are saying I thought goes without saying. You gotta be yourself, but of course you need to be aware of your surroundings and people you are involved with. Of course it's good she's thinking about it, it means she's a good human and cares, but not to the point where it is troubling you.
In regards to your second comment, I still stand by what I said. Yes, he needs to see where she is coming from, or else a relationship wouldn't work, I know that, it's a two way street. But for her to get so upset that he has gone back and said 'my girlfriend feels uncomfortable with your gift,' no, I'm sorry mate, grow a pair. As I said, it's a two way street.
And bout to crash sent an message explaining everything and no response?! Pfft, not good enough IMO. Don't make a song and dance yet don't respond when someone tries to make amends. Hopefully she is just thinking of the correct response.
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My only thought after reading the OP was: Their lack of self-esteem isn't your crisis!
Fucke 'em. Be yourself, love everyone, move on.
This is as blunt as it comes, but I totally agree. Also, their insecurities aren't your problem.
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I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Agreed. you've talked. He and his girlfriend need to work through it. It's on them. You let it be known it isn't that way.
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I wouldn't worry too much about it.
I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Agreed. you've talked. He and his girlfriend need to work through it. It's on them. You let it be known it isn't that way.
These guys know what's up.
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You're right about number 3 Jackie. People are just way too uptight...or she's just extremely insecure or possessive. Or both. It's not your fault that she took it that way. Your friend should have explained your personality to her, and how harmless that gift was, and maybe it would be shined a brighter light on everything. She obviously has a problem judging everyone by the same book which is a great mistake on her part. I know that you're worried about possibly losing him as a friend (are you?). By the same token, you can't hold yourself responsible for someone else's judgements.
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Did you see my explanation on why they're still in the box? :lol
Anyway, thanks for your input, y'all. I sent her a pretty long message just basically kind of explaining where I was at, and Facebook told me she read it but hasn't responded- I hate that!
She does not seem like a crazy person who's going to totally flip over this (that did happen to him with the last girl he got serious with, not involving me but another girl who he was maybe-too-honest about his history with), but I wanted her to know from a girl-to-girl viewpoint where things were at. I may have said too much in quantity, but I didn't say anything crazy. I was honest about the history between us (not in detail or anything) because I'm not gonna pretend like it isn't there, but I also told her I was very happy for him/them and hoping we could be friends. Now I'm going to worry obsessively about this but try not to :P
I say this with deep respect to you, even though I don't know you, because well, I like your style.
But - again, respectfully - you are looking at this through your lenses. And while it's cool for you to do that for your own wellbeing, and it is cool to explain it as "that's just the way I am", remember she's looking at this through HER lenses, and, well, "that's just the way she is". You have no idea if this is a "hot stove" for her (meaning, she's touched this stove before and been burned).
I'm seeing someone now who is - objectively, not just my taste - very beautiful. She has actually won a beauty pageant beautiful. So she has many male friends. And I am generally pretty cool with all of that; I am secure in my masculinity, and even though I'm not as good looking a man as she is a woman, I have my upsides, and I know what I bring to the table. But I have a "history" with "friends", including the ending of my marriage by virtue of a "oh, but we're just FRIENDS" relationship. An "Oh, but we just WORK together" relationship. And a "Oh, he was just JOKING with that reference" relationship.
So as I said, I'm generally cool, except for this one guy. And while the details are very different, the idea is the same. Former sexual relationship, didn't work out as romantic partners, and an overture after we got together that could be taken two very different ways. And I made it an issue. Because in my circumstance - even though "that was who he was" and he was "just being himself" - I have to be true to myself as well, and I shouldn't have to subject myself to that if I don't want to. I CAN have dealbreakers in my relationship. I wasn't so crass as to say "him or me", but I did say "that bothers me. A lot." And truth be told, it still does, to some degree (my girl and her daughter have contact with his estranged daughter) but we DO, I think, handle it like adults.
So I don't think it is fair to dismiss this as people being "uptight", and with the response of "just say fuck 'em". I get that some might say that as support for you, but I think they can do better by you.
As for you, though, I wouldn't give it a second more of thought, given that you've made your position clear. It IS on them now to handle it as they see fit, but much like you would be sensitive to someone who just suffered the loss of a loved one, or who just got fired from their job, or something else that as humans we might be sensitive to, maybe it's something to not judge too harshly. You can't force them to behave a certain way, you can only state your position and act accordingly.
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Great post, Stadler.
Also, isn't it completely jumping to conclusions for anyone to say "she's just being paranoid/insecure"? We don't know how big a deal the girl made out of it - she might have simply said that it made her a bit uncomfortable - after all, she's only met Jackie twice and doesn't really know her. Most people aren't 100% trusting of people they barely know.
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Stadler, I totally see what you're saying. I did also tell her that even though that's something I would do with any good friend (regardless of gender or history), had I known that she knew about the history I probably wouldn't have done it so as not to make her uncomfortable. You're right, I can only see things through my own lenses but I am the type of person who tries to think about what it looks like through the lenses of others as well. It's not like I can't see why it would be uncomfortable for her.
And thanks for your input, all! Still, FB says she read my message but has never replied. I'm hoping she's formulating something to say and isn't just going to ignore me, but we'll see. For those using the term "ex" or "girlfriend," I was nothing even close to that. I would think it would be more threatening if we had actually dated, but it never went past good friends who just happened to fuck a couple of times because we had been attracted to each other (we were both in long-term monogamous relationships when we met so we were just sorta flirty at times, then when we both ended up single a few years later we were like "Hey..."). I didn't go into any detail with her about this, but honestly after the last time it happened I was like "Yep, we would never be able to date or have sex on a regular basis." I just don't think we're really compatible in that way.
I'm not worried about losing his friendship, I'm just worried that things will get weird between us if his girlfriend hates me. *shrug*
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Great post, Stadler.
Also, isn't it completely jumping to conclusions for anyone to say "she's just being paranoid/insecure"? We don't know how big a deal the girl made out of it - she might have simply said that it made her a bit uncomfortable - after all, she's only met Jackie twice and doesn't really know her. Most people aren't 100% trusting of people they barely know.
Totally true. I think people in general are insecure about their relationships and have issues with monogamy, but that's another story.
Here is my friend's initial message (and my/his reply after that) to give you a better idea of her actual reaction/the context:
Hey, so I don't want to make a big deal of it, but I think I should say something.
When V first met you at the Liberty Science Center, she felt awkward and wasn't sure what was up. It prompted her to ask me whether you and I ever dated. I told her we'd slept together before, but that we're just close friends. That still didn't sit well, and she felt like it explained the awkwardness she said she was feeling from and around you. I chalked it up to my own exhaustion and inability to bridge conversation, and to the fact that nobody else showed up that day to help with that. I told her not to worry about it. I thought she was overreacting, albeit understandably, because it's an odd situation to be in.
However, when we saw you yesterday and you gave me the handcuffs, she was not at all happy about it. She felt that you had crossed a line deliberately, and she was also upset that I seemed cool with it. I did register it as odd--or, at least, that the situation instantly grew awkward--but I tried to laugh it off and move on. I'm constantly failing at realizing things as others see them. Later on she told me how she felt about it, and I can see where she's coming from. That, compounded with the initial meeting, seems to stack evidence on one side of things.
I'm not angry with you or anything even close to that, but I thought I should bring it up to make sure everything is cool. I don't think you're intentionally overstepping boundaries, and I told her so, but she did get that impression. It makes her concerned that you might still harbor feelings and are trying to show her up somehow. Again, I told her that's probably not true, and that it's an unfortunate effect of our weird, shared sense of humor.
Still, I can totally see how giving a former sex partner a sex toy in front of their new partner might be taken as a "move," and I wanted to try and clear the air about it. I just want to make sure everything's cool.
Oh man, I'm sorry if I made things awkward! Everything's cool on my end- I found the cuffs (totally unused, btw) and thought it would be funny to throw them in with your other room-cleaning gifts. I meant it as sort of a "couple" gift since I knew she would be there- I had no idea she knew about our "history" (if I had I never would have done that) but if anything it was meant as the opposite of a "move"-sort of like a "you two go have fun" gift (also just me generally being a weird person who jokes about sex-related stuff a lot with all of my friends, whether or not I've seen them naked) - it was not at all meant to be anything deeper than that. I'm not harboring any feelings- I mean, I will always think you're an amazing, attractive person in many ways but we had our fun and I think we both know it would have never been any more than it was with us. I adore you above all as a friend- you're one of my favorite people, I want you to be happy, and I think the two of you are fucking awesome and adorable together. So the bottom line is I'm totally sorry (and a bit embarrassed) and I would love to send V an apology myself if you/she are okay with that.
Hey, it's all good. I guess I should have brought it up sooner, and this could have been avoided. Feel free to message her if you'd like. I'd like it if this were squashed. Not like she's on a rampage or anything like that, but I'm sure you get how it looks to someone on the outside.
I realize that she's in a strange position. I'm very liberal with things, especially my thoughts, and I'm constantly surrounded by women. It's a hell of a gauntlet to put somebody through. I'm amazed she's as cool with it as she is.
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I would absolutely let it go at that. You only know her through him. If you and he are cool, then to hell with it.
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I'm sorry, but if you are worried about someone a few thousand miles away, I think there is a bigger underlying problem.
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Well, I'm not really sure what the distance (which is not THAT far, btw) matters when we're talking about a friendship that's important to me ???
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Yeah, I don't know how Jackie could be friends with anybody that far away. He, how's RJ anyway? :biggrin:
Also beer trip or I'll make you feel uncomfortable.
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I like uncomfortable. Can I get that AND a beer?
You, me, RJ, and Jackie. Whaddayasay?
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I'll bring the beer, Jackie the cuffs, so no one steals your beer.
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Let's do it :eyebrows:
I have more cuffs, so I don't have to ask for them back (they're probably in the trash anyway).
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Let's do it :eyebrows:
I have more cuffs, so I don't have to ask for them back (they're probably in the trash anyway).
Sweet.
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Let's do it :eyebrows:
I have more cuffs, so I don't have to ask for them back (they're probably in the trash anyway).
RJ will bring the Ginsu.
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Well, I'm not really sure what the distance (which is not THAT far, btw) matters when we're talking about a friendship that's important to me ???
Shit. I meant from her perspective, not yours. My bad.
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Let's do it :eyebrows:
I have more cuffs, so I don't have to ask for them back (they're probably in the trash anyway).
RJ will bring the Ginsu.
I will bring the avocados and peanut butter.
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Stadler, I totally see what you're saying. I did also tell her that even though that's something I would do with any good friend (regardless of gender or history), had I known that she knew about the history I probably wouldn't have done it so as not to make her uncomfortable. You're right, I can only see things through my own lenses but I am the type of person who tries to think about what it looks like through the lenses of others as well. It's not like I can't see why it would be uncomfortable for her.
IMO, the bold portion may be the crux of the whole situation. It may have been best if she didn't know your history with him, other than the fact that you once had a relationship. Maybe she shouldn't have known all of the facts about your previous relationship with him (very good friends who have slept together a few times) in the first place. And if that's the case, it's on him not you. You were being yourself and you didn't know that SHE knew the whole back-story (as you said).
As someone who has had these types of problems in the past (long, long... long past), I learned early that a brand new relationship maybe doesn't really need to know everything about an old relationship. Especially when there is a chance that we may run into that old relationship.
For example, my wife and I have been together for 17-years total (married for more than eight)... which is very close to half my life (more than half of hers). She knows the details of ALL of my previous relationships; but she learned those details from me after we had been together for a long time (probably 5-years or more). At that point, we had been through that rough period that every long-term relationship goes through (she took me back when she shouldn't have praise God) and at that point, we both had (and still have) COMPLETE trust in each other. Granted, I don't have any regular or purposeful contact with previous relationships (and I don't want any contact with previous relationships... I'm still very much in love with my beautiful wife and I don't even want the appearance of impropriety), but if we were to run into any of these persons, I feel confident that she wouldn't feel uncomfortable because she KNOWS that I have eyes for only her.
I will also say this (please don't take this as a slight toward you... it's not)... if he wants a serious relationship with this person, he probably shouldn't put himself in a situation in which his past history may come back to bite him. Again, my view would be that it's on him 1) for giving her the full history of your relationship with him in the first place and 2) for putting himself (and you) in that situation to begin with.
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Okay, I admit that my earlier post was a little harsh and others here have taken a better path to, essentially, what I was trying to say: Jackie, your intentions weren't to cause any harm and in my opinion that should be good enough...for you. From here on out, working out their issues should be their problem since it's a near certainty you wouldn't be able to do anything about it anyway.
I say, be content. You're one of the good ones!
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Yeah, I see what you're saying vtgrad.
I think a quality my friend has that is a virtue but also gets him in trouble is his honesty. Now I mean, in this situation she asked him and he shouldn't have lied, but in the last situation where this sort of happened he volunteered the info as far as I know, and that caused a lot of drama with the last girlfriend (who WAS kind of a psycho and highly insecure). But it's like, what do you do? She asks and you're honest, she gets upset. She asks and you lie, then maybe later it comes out and she gets probably more upset that you lied. I don't think he told her a lot of details about it (and I only slightly expanded on it by giving details I thought would be helpful for her to know) thankfully. You're right, it is on him and hopefully it'll blow over but I also hope I hear something back from her after sharing what I did.
Well, I'm not really sure what the distance (which is not THAT far, btw) matters when we're talking about a friendship that's important to me ???
Shit. I meant from her perspective, not yours. My bad.
Ohh, okay. Makes more sense but the "you" threw me off.
Let's do it :eyebrows:
I have more cuffs, so I don't have to ask for them back (they're probably in the trash anyway).
RJ will bring the Ginsu.
I will bring the avocados and peanut butter.
Mmmmm.
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Okay, I admit that my earlier post was a little harsh and others here have taken a better path to, essentially, what I was trying to say: Jackie, your intentions weren't to cause any harm and in my opinion that should be good enough...for you. From here on out, working out their issues should be their problem since it's a near certainty you wouldn't be able to do anything about it anyway.
I say, be content. You're one of the good ones!
Aww, thanks. Yeah, though I am hoping to hear back from her I am just going to leave it alone at this point.
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It's very important to keep the avocado pits.
You'll see.
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It's very important to keep the avocado pits.
You'll see.
Can't wait to see your trick Hef.
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But - again, respectfully - you are looking at this through your lenses. And while it's cool for you to do that for your own wellbeing, and it is cool to explain it as "that's just the way I am", remember she's looking at this through HER lenses, and, well, "that's just the way she is". You have no idea if this is a "hot stove" for her (meaning, she's touched this stove before and been burned).
I'm seeing someone now who is - objectively, not just my taste - very beautiful. She has actually won a beauty pageant beautiful. So she has many male friends. And I am generally pretty cool with all of that; I am secure in my masculinity, and even though I'm not as good looking a man as she is a woman, I have my upsides, and I know what I bring to the table. But I have a "history" with "friends", including the ending of my marriage by virtue of a "oh, but we're just FRIENDS" relationship. An "Oh, but we just WORK together" relationship. And a "Oh, he was just JOKING with that reference" relationship.
Things can get awkward whether too much or too little history has been divulged. To offer a view from a perspective perhaps similar to the one of your friend's girlfriend, sometimes these things bother me, and even though it's only a bit of a bother, the smaller the stone in your shoe, the more it hurts while you walk.
My boyfriend hasn't really divulged any of his history to me. All I know are the small things - out of the girlfriend's he's had, one or more lived in my city (we're long distance), there was one who broke his heart, and at the time I was pursuing him, he was pursuing other girls he liked, but decided to give "us" a go. I very carefully explained my "history" (not much to tell, one real long relationship and that's it) to him, considering the fact that my ex-boyfriend remained a friend of mine and we are in the same circles still, and I thought I should avoid any misunderstandings. I was very clear about the fact that our relationship died because we weren't attracted to each other at all anymore and couldn't function romantically at all - that it's done, dead, gonners forever.
But he hasn't extended this courtesy to me, and while I am a reasonable, liberal person, it bothers me that, considering our circles of friends and acquiantances overlap, I might have as well already had coffee with one or more of his exes or old flames without knowing it. I wouldn't have a problem with it if I knew who they were, but if I was casually mentioning my boyfriend while hanging around waiting for an event and a girl next to me said "oh yeah, he's my ex", I would be taken aback. This extending to the fact that he's had old flames and what-could-have-beens I may already know about is just not a good place to be, even though I've made myself at least appear very cool with it. I don't even know what I'd do if one of them presented him with a sex toy in front of me :lol clearly I wouldn't think she was trying to show me up, and I am very familiar with the fact that you can be friends with an ex, but it would still feel awkward.
So I'm just in this intersection where I do feel insecure, but I also feel insecure for being insecure. I know everyone has history and that worrying about it is extremely uncool. But I also know there are probably people out there my boyfriend would still have feelings for if their paths crossed again, even if he wouldn't act on it. And that there is a chance that he's had feelings of the magnitude he'll never have for me. While people have so reasonably said that everyone's insecurities are their own business, and that relationships you don't have utmost confidence in should be terminated, in real life it's not so clear cut.
While in all relationships we can handle being a part of a larger circle, romantically we can't. It's not a fear of being cheated on, it's more of a fear that you are the second best, or not the one and only, and that there will be other people after you. Maybe for her you seem like one of those other people. But you did all you could to assure you you're not, the rest is up to her.
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Jealousy can become a serious problem if it's not nipped in the bud immediately. I am not the jealous type. And fortunately, my wife isn't either. But I have had some experiences of my own with jealousy and nothing good ever came of it.
When I was in my early 20's I was boinking a 37-year-old divorced mother of 3 young children. It was a perfect pairing. I was young and willing and she was horny but didn't want to get entangled in any complicated relationships or anything heavy. Like it was put above, just fuckbuddies - from her perspective, not mine. Oh, sure, I agreed with just about anything she said as long as she was still willing to let me bend her like a Martian pretzel and have at it. So I did. And it was an incredible experience for the 8 or 9 months that it lasted. But towards the end I was falling really hard for her, trying to prove that I could support her, her three kids and the mortgage on the house. The only problem was I was just a kid, working as a bicycle messenger in Boston. On a good week I was knocking down a whopping $250, before taxes.
This is pretty embarrassing and even a little pathetic, I guess, but it's what happened: In a desperate attempt to change her mind about dumping me, which I knew was coming really soon, I went to RENT-A-CENTER and got her a diamond engagement ring. It was a real diamond! (but you needed a microscope to see it!).
I got myself dressed up nice and went over to her house to propose to her and when I got there she was sitting at the kitchen table with a couple of her friends and I knew it was over.
I was fucking devastated. :(
And then I found out she had actually dumped me for a different guy. It was a guy closer to her age, with an actual career and the stability and maturity. You know, the kind of guy she really needed to meet at that point in her life.
But I just couldn't let her go. I couldn't get her out of my head. Every waking moment of every day I was just wallowing in self-pity but I didn't know how to escape it. And really, I never did escape it. Over time, slowly but surely, it got better. Eventually she became a distant memory.
The moral of the story is: Watch out for people who are jealous. They do erratic things sometimes. Things you never would have imagined they'd do.
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Aww :(... yeah, jealousy sucks but we all experience it to some degree.
On the bright side, she did write back to me and basically just said "Yeah, that was hella awkward but we're cool"... I think she probably had an initial freakout (based on all the stuff my friend mentioned) about it and then chilled out, which is great.
I asked her if it would be okay to take our relationship to the next level and become FB friends so we'll see what she says :lol
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Aww :(... yeah, jealousy sucks but we all experience it to some degree.
On the bright side, she did write back to me and basically just said "Yeah, that was hella awkward but we're cool"... I think she probably had an initial freakout (based on all the stuff my friend mentioned) about it and then chilled out, which is great.
I asked her if it would be okay to take our relationship to the next level and become FB friends so we'll see what she says :lol
Whoa now just hold on there a minute. Don't you think this is moving a little fast? I mean, I'm getting a little claustrophobic just thinking about it...
:coolio
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Aww :(... yeah, jealousy sucks but we all experience it to some degree.
On the bright side, she did write back to me and basically just said "Yeah, that was hella awkward but we're cool"... I think she probably had an initial freakout (based on all the stuff my friend mentioned) about it and then chilled out, which is great.
I asked her if it would be okay to take our relationship to the next level and become FB friends so we'll see what she says :lol
Awesomesauce, great to hear. :tup
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I asked her if it would be okay to take our relationship to the next level and become FB friends so we'll see what she says :lol
You are the best them
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I asked her if it would be okay to take our relationship to the next level and become FB friends so we'll see what she says :lol
I knew this was all about setting up the menage a trois. Now I understand why everybody here is trying to be you male "just friend".
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Stadler, I totally see what you're saying. I did also tell her that even though that's something I would do with any good friend (regardless of gender or history), had I known that she knew about the history I probably wouldn't have done it so as not to make her uncomfortable. You're right, I can only see things through my own lenses but I am the type of person who tries to think about what it looks like through the lenses of others as well. It's not like I can't see why it would be uncomfortable for her.
IMO, the bold portion may be the crux of the whole situation. It may have been best if she didn't know your history with him, other than the fact that you once had a relationship. Maybe she shouldn't have known all of the facts about your previous relationship with him (very good friends who have slept together a few times) in the first place. And if that's the case, it's on him not you. You were being yourself and you didn't know that SHE knew the whole back-story (as you said).
As someone who has had these types of problems in the past (long, long... long past), I learned early that a brand new relationship maybe doesn't really need to know everything about an old relationship. Especially when there is a chance that we may run into that old relationship.
For example, my wife and I have been together for 17-years total (married for more than eight)... which is very close to half my life (more than half of hers). She knows the details of ALL of my previous relationships; but she learned those details from me after we had been together for a long time (probably 5-years or more). At that point, we had been through that rough period that every long-term relationship goes through (she took me back when she shouldn't have praise God) and at that point, we both had (and still have) COMPLETE trust in each other. Granted, I don't have any regular or purposeful contact with previous relationships (and I don't want any contact with previous relationships... I'm still very much in love with my beautiful wife and I don't even want the appearance of impropriety), but if we were to run into any of these persons, I feel confident that she wouldn't feel uncomfortable because she KNOWS that I have eyes for only her.
I will also say this (please don't take this as a slight toward you... it's not)... if he wants a serious relationship with this person, he probably shouldn't put himself in a situation in which his past history may come back to bite him. Again, my view would be that it's on him 1) for giving her the full history of your relationship with him in the first place and 2) for putting himself (and you) in that situation to begin with.
But she asked, as is her right. Like in my example, I asked. Because for several reasons (one being "it's good due diligence") I wanted to know the truth, and more importantly, I wanted to know if she would tell me the truth (because honestly, I believe I knew the answer before I asked; not by anything creepy or illegal, but because of the way she answered an earlier question). And while it was something we had to talk about, if she lied to me about that, we were likely done.
I think my point is, there are no rules here. It's the complicated dance of three people, with three different points of view, three different hot buttons, and three different needs.
Not that what I say matters at all, but I think Jackie handled it about as well as anyone could ever expect. Now, if she shows up to the next meeting with a Vibratex Rabbit as a "fun gift", I think we may have to reevaluate the outcome of this. (I'm kidding).
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But - again, respectfully - you are looking at this through your lenses. And while it's cool for you to do that for your own wellbeing, and it is cool to explain it as "that's just the way I am", remember she's looking at this through HER lenses, and, well, "that's just the way she is". You have no idea if this is a "hot stove" for her (meaning, she's touched this stove before and been burned).
I'm seeing someone now who is - objectively, not just my taste - very beautiful. She has actually won a beauty pageant beautiful. So she has many male friends. And I am generally pretty cool with all of that; I am secure in my masculinity, and even though I'm not as good looking a man as she is a woman, I have my upsides, and I know what I bring to the table. But I have a "history" with "friends", including the ending of my marriage by virtue of a "oh, but we're just FRIENDS" relationship. An "Oh, but we just WORK together" relationship. And a "Oh, he was just JOKING with that reference" relationship.
Things can get awkward whether too much or too little history has been divulged. To offer a view from a perspective perhaps similar to the one of your friend's girlfriend, sometimes these things bother me, and even though it's only a bit of a bother, the smaller the stone in your shoe, the more it hurts while you walk.
My boyfriend hasn't really divulged any of his history to me. All I know are the small things - out of the girlfriend's he's had, one or more lived in my city (we're long distance), there was one who broke his heart, and at the time I was pursuing him, he was pursuing other girls he liked, but decided to give "us" a go. I very carefully explained my "history" (not much to tell, one real long relationship and that's it) to him, considering the fact that my ex-boyfriend remained a friend of mine and we are in the same circles still, and I thought I should avoid any misunderstandings. I was very clear about the fact that our relationship died because we weren't attracted to each other at all anymore and couldn't function romantically at all - that it's done, dead, gonners forever.
But he hasn't extended this courtesy to me, and while I am a reasonable, liberal person, it bothers me that, considering our circles of friends and acquiantances overlap, I might have as well already had coffee with one or more of his exes or old flames without knowing it. I wouldn't have a problem with it if I knew who they were, but if I was casually mentioning my boyfriend while hanging around waiting for an event and a girl next to me said "oh yeah, he's my ex", I would be taken aback. This extending to the fact that he's had old flames and what-could-have-beens I may already know about is just not a good place to be, even though I've made myself at least appear very cool with it. I don't even know what I'd do if one of them presented him with a sex toy in front of me :lol clearly I wouldn't think she was trying to show me up, and I am very familiar with the fact that you can be friends with an ex, but it would still feel awkward.
So I'm just in this intersection where I do feel insecure, but I also feel insecure for being insecure. I know everyone has history and that worrying about it is extremely uncool. But I also know there are probably people out there my boyfriend would still have feelings for if their paths crossed again, even if he wouldn't act on it. And that there is a chance that he's had feelings of the magnitude he'll never have for me. While people have so reasonably said that everyone's insecurities are their own business, and that relationships you don't have utmost confidence in should be terminated, in real life it's not so clear cut.
While in all relationships we can handle being a part of a larger circle, romantically we can't. It's not a fear of being cheated on, it's more of a fear that you are the second best, or not the one and only, and that there will be other people after you. Maybe for her you seem like one of those other people. But you did all you could to assure you you're not, the rest is up to her.
Why wouldn't you just show him that post? You have to do what's right for you (and your relationship) but unless you know WHY he isn't telling you (shy? embarrassed that it is more/less than you might think? That you HAVE had coffee with one or more of his ex's?) how can you make any real evaluations? I haven't asked about every single one - and honestly, I probably won't - but that one "felt" different. And I know me; I'm not jealous, unless I am, and I am when I feel like I am being purposefully kept in the dark. I am well and truly past this now, in large part because we talked about it. They do have some contact now, and she is not obligated to tell me every single time and she doesn't (I trust her), but that if I did ask for more details, I know I would get them.
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The best way to lose friends is to expect perfection. That's why this isn't "all on him (and/or her)".
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Well, you make a good point but in this case it is "on him" to handle his relationship stuff because it's really got nothing to do with me, and I think that's what a lot of people meant by that.
Stadler, I told her I would not give him/them any more sex toys unless they asked first :lol
I thought about saying "Maybe one day we can all have a threesome (too soon??)" but would never.
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Well, you make a good point but in this case it is "on him" to handle his relationship stuff because it's really got nothing to do with me, and I think that's what a lot of people meant by that.
Stadler, I told her I would not give him/them any more sex toys unless they asked first :lol
I thought about saying "Maybe one day we can all have a threesome (too soon??)" but would never.
Maybe that was his intention all along... if so, I must say Bravo for being that crafty and leading what was assuredly an inevitable conversation (between you and his new girlfriend) to the point where a threesome would come up (jokingly at first... then maybe a serious request). :biggrin:
In all seriousness, I see what Stadler is saying... she (the new girlfriend) asked a question that she probably already knew the answer to (which is absolutely her right); he answered her truthfully (which, IMO, is what he should have done). I must have missed the fact that she asked him directly about your previous relationship... I assumed that he volunteered the information. Now the situation makes more sense to me.
Honestly, he likely could have handled that uncomfortable situation immediately if he had said to you "Thanks! We will use these tonight!" whilst throwing his arm around his new girlfriend and giving her a kiss. That would have given the new girlfriend the impression that he immediately thinks of her when sex is mentioned.
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Well, you make a good point but in this case it is "on him" to handle his relationship stuff because it's really got nothing to do with me, and I think that's what a lot of people meant by that.
I just mean that you aren't willing to lose him as a friend, so you might have to compromise "yourself" a bit. We are all somewhat insecure about relatively new relationships. If you aren't, then you probably aren't as in to them as you thought you were.
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Oh, totally.
Honestly, he likely could have handled that uncomfortable situation immediately if he had said to you "Thanks! We will use these tonight!" whilst throwing his arm around his new girlfriend and giving her a kiss. That would have given the new girlfriend the impression that he immediately thinks of her when sex is mentioned.
Well, that's sort of what happened. I handed them to him, then he laughed and said to her "Hey, we can use these" or something like that. She sorta made a face and said "You can!" I just figured she meant it in a "Those aren't my thing" kinda way, especially since we sat and talked after that and I wasn't getting any weird vibes. Oh well.
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Why wouldn't you just show him that post? You have to do what's right for you (and your relationship) but unless you know WHY he isn't telling you (shy? embarrassed that it is more/less than you might think? That you HAVE had coffee with one or more of his ex's?) how can you make any real evaluations?
The thing is that I kind of have a feeling that I had a sort of a window of opportunity to ask this and similar things very early on in our relationship, and that it's closed now. I feel this for a lot of people actually - I always think that I have one shot to tell anyone anything and that I have to take it or hold my peace. It's definitely something to work on.
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Why wouldn't you just show him that post? You have to do what's right for you (and your relationship) but unless you know WHY he isn't telling you (shy? embarrassed that it is more/less than you might think? That you HAVE had coffee with one or more of his ex's?) how can you make any real evaluations?
The thing is that I kind of have a feeling that I had a sort of a window of opportunity to ask this and similar things very early on in our relationship, and that it's closed now. I feel this for a lot of people actually - I always think that I have one shot to tell anyone anything and that I have to take it or hold my peace. It's definitely something to work on.
I totally know what you mean with that. It's that feeling that the conversation was had, and to revisit it is somehow under the table. It probably won't help you (I kind of think it is like touching a hot stove; you have to do it for yourself to see what it feels like) but I've been able to ditch that feeling after my divorce. I now sort of think of it as a spiral staircase. You kind of keep going around and around, but not exactly in the same spot. So the questions that were answered one way when you were still just flirting and figuring things out are answered again with a little more nuance once you realize the person isn't a jackass and you might want to see where this is going, and then they are answered again with even more nuance if and when you realize you may want to spend the rest of your life (or at least the foreseeable future, haha) with them. Doesn't mean it's a test or a trap, though if you get three entirely different answers ("I slept with 5, no wait 15, no wait, if you count hookers, 92 women") you might have a problem.
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Wow. Some awesome stories here. About the 'former partner history thing'.
I've had some flings and shortlived things with girfriends before I met my gf. But this really is my first real long relationship. So I was really new to the whole relationship thing.
I've been pretty open about all of my former ex's (the ones worthy mentioning, that is) and my gf has about hers. She had two longterm relationships before me, and especially the second one was pretty abusive. What I wasn't ready for, though, were the guys that ocassionally kept calling her to date when we were just getting serious. One was a Nigerian ex- american footballplayer guy and the other one was even creepier, because I knew him as a former drinkbuddy. Thing is, I wasn't mister Clean (no drug refference) at the time, but he had really gone down the drain. Alcoholism, homelessness, drug abuse he looked like a caveman. The real freaky thing was when he called my gf and started chatting her up with me right in the room and asking her out and I thought WTF? This Guy? (offcourse he didn't know I was dating my gf at that point). But he had ALSO hung around an earlier ex- fling of mine. And now I ran into him again....! Made sure that was the last of that, though.
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I dunno, guess I'm old fashioned, but in my experience the "new" girl is rarely fond of the girl with some "history." Fairly reliable absolute: death, taxes, and my GFs will never care for any of my ex's. If this guy suddenly became single and said "hey, let's date and I don't care about the distance," would you be into that? honestly? If so, then the new girl is rightfully being protective (like most GFs do in that situation). If not, then no big deal. She'll have a tough time sharing him with you, but you have to soldier through it and take the higher road.
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Well, things seem to be cool now. Like I said, I think she freaked a bit and then felt embarrassed, hence her very chill response to me... which is fine. I'd probably do the same thing.
If he wanted to date me, the answer would be no. We're just not compatible like that, plus I don't really do the long distance thing.