This is a quite disturbing topic I've been thinking about for quite a while... And it's about the girl that made this incredible song possible.
Who is the girl Kevin Moore was talking about in this so-depressive song?
I mean, it must not be THAT hard to find out who she is... I mean, a space-dye vest is not something that common... Think about these clothing magazines and find one published around these dates... Is it possible?
If someone has already said her identity... Then I'm not really aware of that. Clear my ignorance, please.
And if not, has anyone ever done research on this?
Have you ever wondered what picture did he see?
I have not heard either about the model. :-\
I think she may be really hard to track down. I feel like KM made it sound like it was an ad for a SDV, and I do not think a database tracks those. Further, magazines are patchy to be archived, and even more so ads. This was also during print's heyday, so there could have been a lot. Now if the person had a big modeling career, or did movies, it might be easier. But so many people may have flipped right by that ad, vs. someone looking at the cover art girl for I&W for example.
I always felt KM just had a random attachment to an ad that stuck, and most of the song is about his emotional state post break-up. The SDV was to me something that KM used to help write the lyrics, and evoke a mood. Based on what he said, the context around the SDV lyric line just note that he did have an affinity for an image.
KM is reserved in interviews at times, and at this point it might be like the "Your So Vain" song. Better to keep some mystery rather than say who it is. :D
Quote from: Darkstarshades on March 12, 2015, 09:29:12 PM...this incredible song...
Well, see, that's where you go wrong right there.
Quote from: CableX on March 12, 2015, 09:46:48 PM
I have not heard either about the model. :-\
I think she may be really hard to track down. I feel like KM made it sound like it was an ad for a SDV, and I do not think a database tracks those. Further, magazines are patchy to be archived, and even more so ads. This was also during print's heyday, so there could have been a lot. Now if the person had a big modeling career, or did movies, it might be easier. But so many people may have flipped right by that ad, vs. someone looking at the cover art girl for I&W for example.
I always felt KM just had a random attachment to an ad that stuck, and most of the song is about his emotional state post break-up. The SDV was to me something that KM used to help write the lyrics, and evoke a mood. Based on what he said, the context around the SDV lyric line just note that he did have an affinity for an image.
I have been searching actively images about "space-dye vests" (to call it somehow) and I have not found a model that wears something remotely similar... That's why I think It's not something thaat common
Apart from Kevin Moore himself, there is only one person in the world that may solve such a mystery... and that person is Milena.
@Darkstarshades (what a great nick! :eek): space-dyeing is actually a quite common technique for dyeing yarns, so the issue is that you may actually find too many space-dyed clothes! =) try to search "space-dye" on pinterest and you'll see it yourself!
I think the OP is heavily overestimating the internet of the year 1994. Keep in mind that Google didn't even exist yet in that year, the most popular engine (AltaVista) being long dead by now.
In fact, the first browser (Mosaic) was only a year old in 1994.
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2015, 04:54:57 AM
I think the OP is heavily overestimating the internet of the year 1994. Keep in mind that Google didn't even exist yet in that year, the most popular engine (AltaVista) being long dead by now.
In fact, the first browser (Mosaic) was only a year old in 1994.
I don't get how am I overestimating the internet there?
You were suggesting that the information was somehow retrievable from the internet. The internet in 1994 was minuscule, and barely anything from that era survived. Kevin paged through a (physical) clothing magazine of the year 1994. That magazine simply neither physically, nor electronically, exists at this point.
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2015, 06:31:29 AM
You were suggesting that the information was somehow retrievable from the internet. The internet in 1994 was minuscule, and barely anything from that era survived. Kevin paged through a (physical) clothing magazine of the year 1994. That magazine simply neither physically, nor electronically, exists at this point.
Who knows? Never said the internet was the only source tho and I think you're right.
Maybe Kevin never met the girl not because he didn't want to, but because he didn't know how to, or he couldn't lol
Quote from: Darkstarshades on March 13, 2015, 06:37:12 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2015, 06:31:29 AM
You were suggesting that the information was somehow retrievable from the internet. The internet in 1994 was minuscule, and barely anything from that era survived. Kevin paged through a (physical) clothing magazine of the year 1994. That magazine simply neither physically, nor electronically, exists at this point.
Who knows? Never said the internet was the only source tho and I think you're right.
Maybe Kevin never met the girl not because he didn't want to, but because he didn't know how to, or he couldn't lol
Agg double post lol
Quote from: Darkstarshades on March 13, 2015, 06:37:12 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2015, 06:31:29 AM
You were suggesting that the information was somehow retrievable from the internet. The internet in 1994 was minuscule, and barely anything from that era survived. Kevin paged through a (physical) clothing magazine of the year 1994. That magazine simply neither physically, nor electronically, exists at this point.
Who knows? Never said the internet was the only source tho and I think you're right.
Maybe Kevin never met the girl not because he didn't want to, but because he didn't know how to, or he couldn't lol
I don't think there's too much to read into the woman herself. KM uses her as an example of his state of mind, where he was essentially on the rebound.
Yeah, it doesn't matter who she really is. He was reacting to the image.
I think it is much more important to you than it is to him.
I'd love to see that picture.
I'm not interested in the Space-Dye Vest girl. I'm still taking in all that is the Images and Word cover girl all grown up. :o
It's not even about overestimating the internet, it's also about overestimating the social importance of fashion catalogues. My friend once did an ad in a department store catalogue for a fashion section, and not only was I unable to find it AT the store when I went there, around that time, but I think it's a safe bet, it's pretty much nonexistent outside of MAYBE some one guy's graphic design archives, which he probably has thousands of. She has never done any other modeling since.
Now, this was in 2001. Back in 1994, who even knows which store it was, which city. Remember, he was in a touring band by then, so they could've seen this ad in Japan, or Germany or England, or wherever. Finding that exact ad, or the girl who was in it is pretty much impossible. I doubt even KM would be able to track it down.
It was probably this girl.
(https://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v4/1072237198_1/Free-Shipping-2013-new-women-s-fashion-normic-perspective-font-b-space-b-font-galaxy-print.jpg)
I once read somewhere that the catalogue belonged to Lisa Martens Pace (JMX's gf, who would later become his wife), hence the line "Martens on angels", but I don't know whether that's true or just a rumor started by a fan.
But yeah, finding this catalogue is probably impossible now that it's been over 20 years...
Quote from: ? on March 20, 2015, 07:41:51 AM
I once read somewhere that the catalogue belonged to Lisa Martens Pace (JMX's gf, who would later become his wife), hence the line "Martens on angels", but I don't know whether that's true or just a rumor started by a fan.
I thought that line referred to Doc Martens shoes worn by females, presumably worn by this model.
Quote from: ? on March 20, 2015, 07:41:51 AM
I once read somewhere that the catalogue belonged to Lisa Martens Pace (JMX's gf, who would later become his wife), hence the line "Martens on angels", but I don't know whether that's true or just a rumor started by a fan.
But yeah, finding this catalogue is probably impossible now that it's been over 20 years...
I thought the "Martens on angels" was referencing the Doc Martens boots that one of the catalogue models were wearing?
edit: damnit Hef! :lol
I just said that
Ah, I've never heard of those shoes so I didn't know. That makes more sense, actually.
Quote from: Chino on March 20, 2015, 07:38:00 AM
It was probably this girl.
(https://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v4/1072237198_1/Free-Shipping-2013-new-women-s-fashion-normic-perspective-font-b-space-b-font-galaxy-print.jpg)
We all tried that...
Quote from: The Stray Seed on March 13, 2015, 03:28:43 AM
Apart from Kevin Moore himself, there is only one person in the world that may solve such a mystery... and that person is Milena.
Ahahahaha :biggrin: I am very attached to this song and have unpacked it, and I don't think the identity of the model is that important, it's just a trigger for the song. It would be the same as trying to find out on which day it was raining raining on the streets of New York city. It doesn't really matter, the song is about something else entirely.
Besides, she would be impossible to find anyway; you'd have to track down all 1994 fashion catalogs printed in America and even then there would probably be many space-dyed vests to choose from, since it's a pretty popular dyeing technique.
Off topic, you've just reminded me of my unsuccessful quest for the perfect space-dyed sweater. It's a great look, but I can never find one I like in nearby stores.
Quote from: The Stray Seed on March 13, 2015, 03:28:43 AMApart from Kevin Moore himself, there is only one person in the world that may solve such a mystery... and that person is Milena.
I'm pretty sure it's actually Milena herself. She was, currently is, or will be travelling back in time to wear a space dye vest for an obscure magazine shot. Classic predestination paradox. Thanks for making this song possible! :biggrin:
Greetings...
Nef
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 20, 2015, 08:02:17 AM
Quote from: ? on March 20, 2015, 07:41:51 AM
I once read somewhere that the catalogue belonged to Lisa Martens Pace (JMX's gf, who would later become his wife), hence the line "Martens on angels", but I don't know whether that's true or just a rumor started by a fan.
I thought that line referred to Doc Martens shoes worn by females, presumably worn by this model.
Huh. I never even thought of that possibility. I always thought it was a reference to models wearing fur coats.
Quote from: Nefarius on April 07, 2015, 02:08:50 AM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on March 13, 2015, 03:28:43 AMApart from Kevin Moore himself, there is only one person in the world that may solve such a mystery... and that person is Milena.
I'm pretty sure it's actually Milena herself. She was, currently is, or will be travelling back in time to wear a space dye vest for an obscure magazine shot. Classic predestination paradox. Thanks for making this song possible! :biggrin:
Greetings...
Nef
I would like to see that. :zydar:
Quote from: ZeppelinDT on April 07, 2015, 07:14:34 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 20, 2015, 08:02:17 AM
Quote from: ? on March 20, 2015, 07:41:51 AM
I once read somewhere that the catalogue belonged to Lisa Martens Pace (JMX's gf, who would later become his wife), hence the line "Martens on angels", but I don't know whether that's true or just a rumor started by a fan.
I thought that line referred to Doc Martens shoes worn by females, presumably worn by this model.
Huh. I never even thought of that possibility. I always thought it was a reference to models wearing fur coats.
That's my interpretation as well.
It would make more sense that the pages he is pouring through are filled with models in fur coats, not work boots.
Not in the grunge era.
Boots AND furs
Take that, bitches
Quote from: RaiseTheKnife on April 07, 2015, 08:21:55 PM
It would make more sense that the pages he is pouring through are filled with models in fur coats, not work boots.
They aren't workboots. If you look at the lyrics in the Awake booklet, it's spelled Martens. Those are Doc Martens, worn by mostly grungy and rocker types during the 90s.
https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1600&bih=745&q=doc+martens&oq=doc+martens&gs_l=img.3..0l10.439.1616.0.1751.11.8.0.3.3.0.70.447.8.8.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.64.img..0.11.467.rTUoAtxuqEQ
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 08, 2015, 07:34:19 AM
Quote from: RaiseTheKnife on April 07, 2015, 08:21:55 PM
It would make more sense that the pages he is pouring through are filled with models in fur coats, not work boots.
They aren't workboots. If you look at the lyrics in the Awake booklet, it's spelled Martens. Those are Doc Martens, worn by mostly grungy and rocker types during the 90s.
https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1600&bih=745&q=doc+martens&oq=doc+martens&gs_l=img.3..0l10.439.1616.0.1751.11.8.0.3.3.0.70.447.8.8.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.64.img..0.11.467.rTUoAtxuqEQ
"Martens" is also the spelling of the trendy fur seen on high society women and models. Who calls the boots just Martens? Docs, sure. Its all too cerebral, so it makes more sense to me that it is a reference to a fur. Sure, it could be boots, but it seems to be a simpler logical connection to fur.
https://www.hiclothesblog.com/2014/08/dkny-jeans-plus-size-spacedye-cozy-vest-for-women/
https://www.buckle.com/daytrip-space-dye-sweater-vest/prd-20001166430
We should all wear a space dye vest for the next DTF meet-up.
Quote from: RaiseTheKnife on April 08, 2015, 10:26:14 PM
We should all wear a space dye vest for the next DTF meet-up.
And thus Virgins Anonymous was born. :neverusethis:
Quote from: RaiseTheKnife on April 08, 2015, 10:26:14 PM
We should all wear a space dye vest for the next DTF meet-up.
No thank you.
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 09, 2015, 05:52:35 AM
Quote from: RaiseTheKnife on April 08, 2015, 10:26:14 PM
We should all wear a space dye vest for the next DTF meet-up.
No thank you.
What if we just wear vests and look at space?
Nothing but vests?
:zydarscouch:
Space-dye couch.
Space-Dye Breast
Here we go...
That was your 666th post and it was anti-breast. You are pure fucking evil.
;)
I'm still hunting down a source for the "dry heat" and "get some help" samples. You would think that finding clips from Conan and the OJ chase would be easier to find than a random model, but they're proving to be equally impossible.
Quote from: Grizz on April 14, 2015, 07:09:33 AM
I'm still hunting down a source for the "dry heat" and "get some help" samples. You would think that finding clips from Conan and the OJ chase would be easier to find than a random model, but they're proving to be equally impossible.
The "dry heat" comment came long before Conan was where he is now as far as popularity. I'm not surprised that you're having trouble finding it. Maybe shoot Kevin Moore an email. ;)
I did find a few early Conan episodes but couldn't find the quote. And Kevin didn't seem to be kidding when he said he'll never be open again, so I'm not gonna bug him quite yet. Want to save that credit for later.
I'm surprised Milena doesn't have any info on this.
Of course, the other big question is who's the girl off the Long Island Expressway (L.I.E.), and how did her stepfather react to the conversation about lifelong mistakes?
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 08, 2015, 06:38:44 AM
Boots AND furs
Take that, bitches
Apple bottom jeans
I bet the whole club was looking at her.
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2015, 05:50:58 PM
I'm surprised Milena doesn't have any info on this.
I'm just surprised people think this information would be relevant to the song :lol the reason why I have all KevMo interviews saved is to be able to quote them when people get facts about him blatantly wrong and try to paint him in a bad light, but the reason why I was able to collect them in the first place is that there aren't many of them. It's not like he's going around sharing private info 24/7, and I really wouldn't be comfortable with collecting it if that were the case. I just like to know things that are relevant to his music endeavors. And he hasn't gone on record saying stuff like this.
It is and isn't relevant. As detailed in Rich Wilson's book, and revealed by James, Kevin would walk around with the magazine picture of the Space Dye Vest girl all the time, and the song expresses that if he actually met her in real life her innocence and his adoration for her would be lost (2nd edition, page 136). So in a way, this discussion is thematically relevant to the song. However, it has no relevance to our own personal connection to the song.
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 18, 2015, 02:41:28 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2015, 05:50:58 PM
I'm surprised Milena doesn't have any info on this.
I'm just surprised people think this information would be relevant to the song :lol the reason why I have all KevMo interviews saved is to be able to quote them when people get facts about him blatantly wrong and try to paint him in a bad light, but the reason why I was able to collect them in the first place is that there aren't many of them. It's not like he's going around sharing private info 24/7, and I really wouldn't be comfortable with collecting it if that were the case. I just like to know things that are relevant to his music endeavors. And he hasn't gone on record saying stuff like this.
I only said that to get your attention here. ;) It IS irrelevant though and I think we're just desperate for topics to discuss, so we talk about girls in magazines and hair styles.
Quote from: RaiseTheKnife on April 18, 2015, 03:39:59 PM
It is and isn't relevant. As detailed in Rich Wilson's book, and revealed by James, Kevin would walk around with the magazine picture of the Space Dye Vest girl all the time, and the song expresses that if he actually met her in real life her innocence and his adoration for her would be lost (2nd edition, page 136). So in a way, this discussion is thematically relevant to the song. However, it has no relevance to our own personal connection to the song.
Yeah, but that's a minor part of the song, and it in itself confirms why it's not important - it's just a photo you see and your personal connection to it that matters, not the person that it represents, the representation is "purer" and better than the person. So it doesn't really matter who it is.
Sorry I'm pushing this, my literature lessons haven't offered me enough brain nutrition in years so I need to argue about these things :lol
It's the title of the song, so its not that minor. Sure, I think its a waste of time to look for this model -- but there is some thematic connection to the idea of pursuing something that is elusive and exists mostly in our imagination vs finding out what that person is really like. At least, that's my interpretation of the song, and I find it oddly interesting that this thread mirrors that theme.
it was me
I always thought this song was about KM leaving the band rather than literally that thing with the girl.. Yeah, I know, that's what he himself said, but, c'mon, with something like this?:
"This is not how I want it to end
And I'll never be open again..."
"Never come near me again
do you really think I need you?..."
"And I'll have no more dreams to defend..."
Nah, I'll just go with what the songwriter said.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 08, 2015, 10:59:35 PM
Quote from: RaiseTheKnife on April 08, 2015, 10:26:14 PM
We should all wear a space dye vest for the next DTF meet-up.
And thus Virgins Anonymous was born. :neverusethis:
It's posts like this that make me think I should be here more often :lol
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2015, 06:08:32 AM
Nah, I'll just go with what the songwriter said.
Why would you do that? The fans know more about the lyrics than the writer does. ;)
:lol So innocent...
There's something called "lie".. In fact, the same guy is telling you that from the very title in one of his lyrics.. We are able to suspect about things.. I'm just using that ability.. ;)
this thread is amazing
I just read the Space Dye-Vest lyrics (extraterrestrial clothing). :justjen
The girl... Martens, Angels? Try Martian women.
Yep, KM probably did it with an alien.
https://media.giphy.com/media/XcWvzdYTTCtUs/giphy.gif
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 30, 2015, 05:34:22 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2015, 06:08:32 AM
Nah, I'll just go with what the songwriter said.
Why would you do that? The fans know more about the lyrics than the writer does. ;)
I really don't think John Wetton knows what Starless is about.
Quote from: Grizz on May 01, 2015, 08:13:39 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 30, 2015, 05:34:22 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2015, 06:08:32 AM
Nah, I'll just go with what the songwriter said.
Why would you do that? The fans know more about the lyrics than the writer does. ;)
I really don't think John Wetton knows what Starless is about.
As soon as I read that, it made me wonder if Eddie Vedder knew the lyrics to Yellow Ledbetter, let alone what the song is about.
Quote from: ToT-147 on May 01, 2015, 05:56:04 PM
:lol So innocent...
There's something called "lie".. In fact, the same guy is telling you that from the very title in one of his lyrics.. We are able to suspect about things.. I'm just using that ability.. ;)
He left the band. Nothing to lie about.
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 02, 2015, 12:51:54 AM
He left the band. Nothing to lie about.
He could've easily made that up, instead of revealing the true sense of those lyrics.. Not every song has explicit lyrics.. Many are mysterious and the author has all the right to decide whether he wants the public to know its meaning or to find out for themselves.. (I guess that doesn't apply to JM.. :-\ )