Poll
Question:
How do you like DT12's song order?
Option 1: It's great!
votes: 29
Option 2: I like it enough
votes: 20
Option 3: Would make some changes
votes: 7
Lately I've been listening to Behind the Veil after False Awakening Suite/The Enemy Inside; it happened randomly once and I liked the flow so much that I've periodically found myself listening to these songs together. Then I read that at one point Illumination Theory was considered to come after False Awakening Suite on the album.
This got me thinking: Does DT12 have the best possible sequence of songs? The way it flows is pretty great and every song seems to have been placed with careful consideration (like every DT album), yet this might be the first time I've found myself thinking about the possibility of other track orders. For example, if you switched Behind the Veil and The Looking Glass, you'd have the three heavier songs (not including IT) starting out the album, then things are taken down a notch with The Bigger Picture starting a more melodic/softer run of songs before kicking it back into gear with Illumination Theory. Plus, The Looking Glass ends on the same chord that starts Surrender To Reason, so they could've connected them with some ambiance or some other segue. I also like the idea of keeping the heavier momentum going with BTV right after TEI.
What do you guys think? Do you like DT12's song order? Would you have placed the songs differently? How does the sequencing compare to other DT albums?
I like it as is. That isn't to say that a different order wouldn't work or wouldn't be cool, but I have a hard time imagining a song order that would be noticeably better.
The only album I have ever consciously re-ordered is Systematic Chaos, and by re-ordering it and eliminating a couple of songs, the flow is MUCH better to me.
I think it flows perfectly fine. There isn't another way to group those songs. Intro into the opening track, followed by the proggy single type song and instrumental, then a more straightforward, calmer rocker to close the first half. Second half starts off with an ambient intro into a heavy opener, into a proggier song and a ballad for breathing room before the epic finale. Easter egg works a perfect outro.
It is ok as it is.
Works for me. But in this world of digital music, if you don't like it - change it.
Don't really care to be honest, it's fine how it is.
I honestly hate the flow of this album. I just dont like the way it all goes together. In my opinion, I think it work better with a few changes in the tracklisting. Frankly, I also think that the structure of Illumination Theory needs rearranged too. Here's how I would do it:
Firstly, make IT start at 7:35 or so, with a gradual fade-in intro, opening up the album. The Embracing Circle ends and segues smoothly into Paradoxe de la Lumière Noire, which then naturally follows into Live, Die Kill until that segment reaches its end and fades out the same way it began. And that should just be one track on its own. Illumination Theory - Part I.
Part II is a separate track that begins with The Pursuit of Truth (with that bass and drum riff) and carries on naturally until the end of Surrender, Trust and Passion and ends there without the "easter egg".
Now, with that much explained, let me give you the layout of the album.
1. Illumination Theory - Part I (~10:00)
2. The Enemy Inside (6:17)
3. Behind The Veil (5:30) [cut out the intro until about 1:22]
4. The Looking Glass (4:30)
5. Surrender To Reason (6:35)
6. Enigma Machine (6:02)
7. The Bigger Picture (7:41)
8. Illumination Theory - Part II (~8:00)
9. Along For The Ride (4:45)
Now, I personally think that the album flows BEAUTIFULLY with this arrangement. And hey, I even managed to shave off about 8 minutes of fluff; the album now has a runtime of ~59:30. This would make it one of my all-time favorite DT albums.
I personally would never think to split up IT.
Quote from: PROGdrummer on August 19, 2014, 09:46:01 PM
1. Illumination Theory - Part I (~10:00)
2. The Enemy Inside (6:17)
3. Behind The Veil (5:30) [cut out the intro until about 1:22]
4. The Looking Glass (4:30)
5. Surrender To Reason (6:35)
6. Enigma Machine (6:02)
7. The Bigger Picture (7:41)
8. Illumination Theory - Part II (~8:00)
9. Along For The Ride (4:45)
Now, I personally think that the album flows BEAUTIFULLY with this arrangement. And hey, I even managed to shave off about 8 minutes of fluff; the album now has a runtime of ~59:30. This would make it one of my all-time favorite DT albums.
So False Awakening is fluff? Just sayin' but there's not exactly much 'fluff' on the album anyway (by DT standards) I don't know how you could bring yourself to cut out 8 minutes of an already short album. :|
It's fine, not sure why I would change it.
Its great the way it is, I don't really think I would change it. I definitely wouldn't split up IT.
Quote from: Rodni Demental on August 20, 2014, 01:03:29 AM
So False Awakening is fluff? Just sayin' but there's not exactly much 'fluff' on the album anyway (by DT standards) I don't know how you could bring yourself to cut out 8 minutes of an already short album. :|
It doesnt really add to the flow of the album at all, or go along well with anything else as an intro (not really even TEI). And as a standalone piece, I just dont get it. I never understood the love for it. The album does work just fine without it, honestly. Its not like its an overture or anything that plays an important part setting up the entire album.
And idk about you, but id say that 30 seconds of dead silence at the end of IT and a rather pointless, unfitting intro to BTV are pretty fluffy bits. These edits help the album start super strong and then never lose momentum.
Dont knock it til' you try it, bro ;) it works pretty well.
Enigma Machine is very poorly placed IMO. Too soon after 2 other fast heavy (especially TEI) songs and too soon after the other instrumental. It should be between STR and AFTR.
Quote from: Dream Team on August 20, 2014, 06:16:36 AM
Enigma Machine is very poorly placed IMO.
Yeah...they actually put it on the album! :lol
FAS is the best thing on the album for me. I'd also definitely split IT into tracks, but not separate it on the album. That way I could at least skip to the orchestral bit without the rest.
I love it!
Fuck that, it was the song I enjoyed the most when I first listened to DT12, so much so that I immediately gave it another spin. Everyone is firing on all cylinders, especially Jordan & Mike (love that back and forth @ 2:00, cool groove by Mike and that organ is kickass). While it's not my favorite on the album, it aged well and it's just as exciting and engaging as it was for the first time.
I agree, that's a tasty little track.
Yea, I hated it when DT12 came out but I've really grown to love it. It's a lot of fun.
Enigma Machine's the third best song on the album. Y'all are crazy.
The album flows wonderfully as it is. I can't rearrange the order in any way in my mind and think it to be better than the actual track order.
Liked EM the first time I heard it and still do. Glad it's on the album.
splitting IT is destroying the concept of the song, especially the narrative behind it.
Quote from: erwinrafael on August 21, 2014, 10:47:11 PM
splitting IT is destroying the concept of the song, especially the narrative behind it.
You mean the concept/narrative that was made up by users on this forum and never confirmed by any members of the band, leaving it as just another wishful thinking conspiracy theory created by fans? :P
The lyrics still go in chronological order anyway, so it still works.
I think that Illumination Theory's intro was intended as the opener (after FaS) and I think this would work more epically than people think, considering that it was the original intention and all.
I'm not a huge fan of the album, but I don't think the tracklist is to blame.
There's really nothing I'd change about the album at all.
Quote from: Grizz on August 22, 2014, 02:10:14 PM
I think that Illumination Theory's intro was intended as the opener (after FaS) and I think this would work more epically than people think, considering that it was the original intention and all.
Que?
Quote from: PROGdrummer on August 22, 2014, 12:28:08 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on August 21, 2014, 10:47:11 PM
splitting IT is destroying the concept of the song, especially the narrative behind it.
You mean the concept/narrative that was made up by users on this forum and never confirmed by any members of the band, leaving it as just another wishful thinking conspiracy theory created by fans? :P
The only theory I've read wasn't contrived or anything, and made perfect sense, unifying the music and lyrics.
It is one unified song, was written and recorded that way, presented that way on the album, and been performed that way live. I don't see how it would make sense split up.
Quote from: bosk1 on August 19, 2014, 08:04:37 PM
I like it as is. That isn't to say that a different order wouldn't work or wouldn't be cool, but I have a hard time imagining a song order that would be noticeably better.
The only album I have ever consciously re-ordered is Systematic Chaos, and by re-ordering it and eliminating a couple of songs, the flow is MUCH better to me.
You're not allowed to eliminate an entire album to make it better.
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 23, 2014, 04:35:07 AM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on August 22, 2014, 12:28:08 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on August 21, 2014, 10:47:11 PM
splitting IT is destroying the concept of the song, especially the narrative behind it.
You mean the concept/narrative that was made up by users on this forum and never confirmed by any members of the band, leaving it as just another wishful thinking conspiracy theory created by fans? :P
The only theory I've read wasn't contrived or anything, and made perfect sense, unifying the music and lyrics.
It is one unified song, was written and recorded that way, presented that way on the album, and been performed that way live. I don't see how it would make sense split up.
Well yeah, sure. But thats not the point. This thread was just a hypothetical "what-if" scenario. "What-if" the album tracks were sequenced differently, would it work even better?
I remember when the album first came out, alot of people HATED the structure of IT. Most people hated the fact that the orchestral section was placed in the middle of the song because it ruins the momentum. Then one person made up his own little interpretive conspiracy about how the orchestral section is the narrator having an epiphany or something and everyone suddenly had a change of heart. I mean yeah, it makes sense I guess, but that doesnt make it perfect. And since its not actually official or anything, it really doesnt hurt to put the orchestral part at the beginning.
And I really dont see what is so wrong about cutting IT into two tracks when there's a very clear place in the song to split it. It's about as sinful as linking ITPoE Parts I and II together into one full song (AKA not at all).
Quote from: Zook on August 22, 2014, 05:22:08 PM
Quote from: Grizz on August 22, 2014, 02:10:14 PM
I think that Illumination Theory's intro was intended as the opener (after FaS) and I think this would work more epically than people think, considering that it was the original intention and all.
Que?
IT was originally track 2. The build up and epic chord as the beginning appears to be a vestige of that original intention. I think that the intro (and epic end) would allow its placement as track two to work well, but I seem alone in that sentiment.
The song order is good, now that I'm kinda seeing it as it is.
But I remember not really liking the flow early on. Enigma Machine sounded a little early for an instrumental. The Bigger Picture was a very significant track, I don't think it should've been placed smack in the middle. Nowadays I think it's pretty fitting where it is, though.
TEI is also a song that sounded like it should be followed up with a similar heavy track, or a track with stark contrast (full out ballad perhaps). The Looking Glass fell somewhere in the middle, being a straight up rocker, which didn't work as well to me.
I also didn't think FAS was a very good album opener, way too all over the place. Purely my opinion though; I think album openers are better when they focus on a particular theme and stick to a first impression type of deal. I think FAS kinda wastes a lot of good riffs and themes that could be better used for more significant moments in the album.
It would have been a really cool SONG opener though. TEI would have been a more fitting album opener (which it kind of is, but that would've given a way more kickass first impression in the sense of "shit they ain't playin around").
STR -> AFTR -> IT was perfect though imo :grin
Idk, just a lot of little nitpicks. The track listing as it is is good though. I went with "I like it enough."
Quote from: Nearmyth on August 23, 2014, 05:02:53 PMbut that would've given a way more kickass first impression in the sense of "shit they ain't playin around").
I actually had that impression when hearing FAS. It's the first time I felt that way hearing a new DT album since Train of Thought.