I just came across this concert on Youtube (it was posted a few weeks ago) and I was BLOWN AWAY by James's performance during the entire concert. The accuracy in intonation and the sheer power is incredible. It's obviously pre-poisoning, and I think if that didn't happen he would have gotten even stronger. Here's a track from it, but check out all of the videos from the show. It's utterly amazing. I don't think this has been released by the band, but if it's in violation of the rules feel free to take it down, or tell me to and I will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00L7QEgvJsE (The Mirror)
I wholly agree. Those concerts (and damn am I happy to have seen them during that time) were the sweet spot where a) he has introduced the raspy edge to his voice, b) he hadn't fucked up his voice yet and c) his vibrato was still reasonably subtle (not the extreme version of these days).
Oh, and d) JP looks still normal.
I also just subscribed to that YT guy's stream. He has a lot of tunes from that era.
Wow that was a thing of beauty. So much power in his voice, James was truly at the top of his game here. Nothing even comes close.
I wish there was an official live album from this era. The closest thing we have is the Marquee, but that has it's own problems (no Awake, for starters! And James sounds good on it, but to be fair he dubbed his vocals). What I would give for a live Awake-era album pre-food-poisoning.
And if someone could clear something up for me: In that video, that's Sherinian, right? It sort of looks like Moore to me, but I'm honestly not sure what Moore looked like in the 90's, and I thought he left the band before they did any touring for Awake.
If the Mirror video tickled your fancy, you're in for a treat: Voices from that same era. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFybTiNiE8
James make it look effortless.
Quote from: Shine on May 09, 2014, 08:59:06 PM
And if someone could clear something up for me: In that video, that's Sherinian, right? It sort of looks like Moore to me, but I'm honestly not sure what Moore looked like in the 90's, and I thought he left the band before they did any touring for Awake.
If the Mirror video tickled your fancy, you're in for a treat: Voices from that same era. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFybTiNiE8
James make it look effortless.
Fun fact: the video you posted was Jordan Rudess's first performance with DT. And yes, in the Mirror video, it is Sherinian. KM left the band before the tour started, and they had to scramble to find a keys player.
Quote from: tweeg on May 09, 2014, 09:15:23 PM
Quote from: Shine on May 09, 2014, 08:59:06 PM
And if someone could clear something up for me: In that video, that's Sherinian, right? It sort of looks like Moore to me, but I'm honestly not sure what Moore looked like in the 90's, and I thought he left the band before they did any touring for Awake.
If the Mirror video tickled your fancy, you're in for a treat: Voices from that same era. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFybTiNiE8
James make it look effortless.
Fun fact: the video you posted was Jordan Rudess's first performance with DT. And yes, in the Mirror video, it is Sherinian. KM left the band before the tour started, and they had to scramble to find a keys player.
Oh wow, you weren't kidding! Here's another performance from that night where you can get a much better look at Rudess during the keyboard solo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgiu4U0LHls
Quote from: tweeg on May 09, 2014, 09:15:23 PM
Quote from: Shine on May 09, 2014, 08:59:06 PM
And if someone could clear something up for me: In that video, that's Sherinian, right? It sort of looks like Moore to me, but I'm honestly not sure what Moore looked like in the 90's, and I thought he left the band before they did any touring for Awake.
If the Mirror video tickled your fancy, you're in for a treat: Voices from that same era. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFybTiNiE8
James make it look effortless.
Fun fact: the video you posted was Jordan Rudess's first performance with DT. And yes, in the Mirror video, it is Sherinian. KM left the band before the tour started, and they had to scramble to find a keys player.
Thanks tweeg for the facts!
JLB was poisoned? Can somebody explain this to me.
Short version: JLB ate some bad shrimp and got food poisoning. He was so violently sick that he injured his voice, and for a long time after, his voice was weak and unpredictable. That lead to him getting lazy with taking care of his voice and almost lead to him getting kicked out of the band. He and his voice as since fully recovered, but some wonder what he might sound like now if he had never gotten sick.
Quote from: tweeg on May 09, 2014, 09:15:23 PM
Quote from: Shine on May 09, 2014, 08:59:06 PM
And if someone could clear something up for me: In that video, that's Sherinian, right? It sort of looks like Moore to me, but I'm honestly not sure what Moore looked like in the 90's, and I thought he left the band before they did any touring for Awake.
If the Mirror video tickled your fancy, you're in for a treat: Voices from that same era. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFybTiNiE8
James make it look effortless.
Fun fact: the video you posted was Jordan Rudess's first performance with DT. And yes, in the Mirror video, it is Sherinian. KM left the band before the tour started, and they had to scramble to find a keys player.
I think the concert when Jordan first came on was called "The Rudess Experiment". There was a video of the whole concert, and I'm pretty sure I watched it on youtube.
Quote from: billybobjoe1881 on May 10, 2014, 01:34:20 PM
JLB was poisoned? Can somebody explain this to me.
He got food poisoning while vacationing and it wrecked his vocal cords with all his vomiting and heaving.
Quote from: Implode on May 10, 2014, 02:22:14 PM
He and his voice as since fully recovered, but some wonder what he might sound like now if he had never gotten sick.
"Fully Recovered". I dunno about that, he's definitely doing better than he has in a long time though.
THIS SHOW :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy Yea, I think this might be the best I've ever heard him sound. Although I do love the HUGE vibrato he does now that he didn't do back then.
Quote from: Mindflux on May 10, 2014, 03:14:00 PM
Quote from: billybobjoe1881 on May 10, 2014, 01:34:20 PM
JLB was poisoned? Can somebody explain this to me.
He got food poisoning while vacationing and it wrecked his vocal cords with all his vomiting and heaving.
It was December 1994. Basically, is was right after he felt he had finally accomplished the perfect singing technique and could wait to show it to the world on the Awake tour. Then the pork incident happened in Cuba and he said he didn't feel his range really come back until late 2002. It's true, he was able to hit a lot of notes better 2003 and onward than in that 1995-02 span. However that isn't to say other aspects of his voice didn't sound younger and tighter during those years. Certain notes on certain nights came out great on the Awake-6DOIT tours. But overall I'd still say his voice is better now (2005-current).
It's interesting, to me, once I watched enough videos from different tours I noticed that different aspects of his voice have been good in different years. It's more than just an overall scale from good to bad. More like scales of good to bad tone, pitch, high voice, low voice, mid voice, vibrato, distortion/ clean singing, pitch accuracy, phrasing, holding out long notes for the full value, etc.
That's crazy. Glad to see he was able to carry on with DT and not lose his voice entirely
Quote from: Mindflux on May 10, 2014, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: Implode on May 10, 2014, 02:22:14 PM
He and his voice as since fully recovered, but some wonder what he might sound like now if he had never gotten sick.
"Fully Recovered". I dunno about that, he's definitely doing better than he has in a long time though.
Cut some slack off me. The guy is 51 years old and he's doing such an amazing job live on an incredibly consistent way, considering the band is playing night after night with An Evening With shows. I'd even dare to say it's my favorite JLB period.
I can't imagine he could sound much better for a guy of his current age, even without the food poisoning incident. Who knows, maybe the incident made him more aware of taking care of his voice over time, leading to his current top form. Or maybe he'd still be just as good regardless.
But there aren't a whole lot of other singers of his age singing material that difficult on a touring schedule like DT's who still sound that good. There are some good examples, but it's a small group.
With the exception of Bruce Dickinson, metal singers of the "power-opera" style tend to lose a bit when they age. I'd dare say that JLB would sound very close to how he does now if the food poisoning didn't happen. Which is fine because for his age he sounds pretty great; arguably (for me anyway) the best since SFAM.
Also, Another Day!! (complete with bum keyboard note at 2:27 :laugh: )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD054EpqtXc
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on May 09, 2014, 09:47:04 PM
Thanks tweeg for the facts!
Fun fact: Awake was recorded in 1994 (amidoingitrite?)
Quote from: tweeg on May 09, 2014, 07:13:07 PM
I just came across this concert on Youtube (it was posted a few weeks ago) and I was BLOWN AWAY by James's performance during the entire concert. The accuracy in intonation and the sheer power is incredible. It's obviously pre-poisoning, and I think if that didn't happen he would have gotten even stronger. Here's a track from it, but check out all of the videos from the show. It's utterly amazing. I don't think this has been released by the band, but if it's in violation of the rules feel free to take it down, or tell me to and I will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00L7QEgvJsE (The Mirror)
Thanks for the link. The power in this vocal performance is just mindblowing.
Too bad for the saturated audio. I'll check if my version of this bootleg is better. Anyone interested in the full show?
I'm very interested in the full show!
(also i'm putting this in brackets because this is off topic[ish], What's up with the Stained Glass bootleg, Wasteland? Probably my favourite JLB performance, but it sounds like it was supposed to be a live album?)
Do you have audio bootleg of this show? :)
Quote from: wasteland on May 11, 2014, 04:48:11 AM
Too bad for the saturated audio. I'll check if my version of this bootleg is better. Anyone interested in the full show?
Yes! Are there more bootlegs around of other shows from that tour as well?
This is probably my favorite awake era show. I have a video version that also unfortunately also has the saturated audio, but good video at least.
Quote from: rumborak on May 09, 2014, 08:21:42 PM
I wholly agree. Those concerts (and damn am I happy to have seen them during that time)
Were you at the Berklee show too? That was a great show. I still listen to my recording of it all the time.
I always thught it would've made a great Ytsejam release. Especially that it still had Innocence Faded and TOWHTSTS in thie setlist.
James has really been in great form since '04. If anything, I would say he is singing with more confidence than he ever has.
During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.
Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.
You have to admit, JLB's recovery is a crazy sing. He was supposed to never be able to sing like that again after the incident, but he didn't care and kept practicing and here he is now.
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 11, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.
Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.
The Derek phase was performance-wise one of the most enjoyable. Lava lamps, TVs on stage, then the occasional antics (Nightmare Cinema), and even acoustic sets. And Derek himself is coolness in person anyway.
Not that the current stage show is bad, but they lately rely a lot on video screens for their visuals. In the Derek days the stage had a lot going on.
Quote from: Implode on May 10, 2014, 02:22:14 PM
Short version: JLB ate some bad shrimp and got food poisoning. He was so violently sick that he injured his voice, and for a long time after, his voice was weak and unpredictable. That lead to him getting lazy with taking care of his voice and almost lead to him getting kicked out of the band. He and his voice as since fully recovered, but some wonder what he might sound like now if he had never gotten sick.
He would sound more or less the same at this point in his career.
Pork, btw people not shrimp.
And I think if it never happened, that would have affected his performances from 1995-2004, but after that I think he would sound about the same as he did/does in this universe.
Yeah, pork. My mistake. :lol
I wish the lineup with Derek and Portnoy had a chance at recording another album with DT.
DT were so lost image-wise during the '90s with Derek, not to mention it was their weakest period performance-wise too. It's like they thought they were huge rock band instead of a struggling prog band. I blame the '90s.
Those earlier JR years were the best all around imo, but the IaW era is great to watch too.
It does make me wonder what vocals would have sounded like on certain albums like SFAM, SDOIT, TOT /(pretty much everything else) if he was still putting the same amount of energy and aggression into his expression as he did on Awake. Perhaps in an alternate universe DT is immensely popular and stayed in the mainstream since I&W even, but I'm still happy the way it is. JLB never stopped trying to be top of his game even through some tricky times and even to this day he represents so many different styles and has a very colourful vocal pallet. (Perhaps even more so than the Awake days, in the sense that he's got much more control and consistency of the delicate side aswell as the harsher side).
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 11, 2014, 08:44:16 PM
DT were so lost image-wise during the '90s with Derek, not to mention it was their weakest period performance-wise too. It's like they thought they were huge rock band instead of a struggling prog band. I blame the '90s.
Those earlier JR years were the best all around imo, but the IaW era is great to watch too.
Yeah, it's interesting that in SFAM tour they were doing some "funny" things during the concerts and the entire feel in the performance was that they just play some music and have fun. Somewhere in SDoIT/ToT era they changed their style to more metal band and more "big concert band" what they had done previously on Awake/FII tour.
Holy shit! This sounds so good.. Propably the best live singing I've ever heard! JLB <3
Wow, thanks to the OP for the link, great vocals here!
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 11, 2014, 08:44:16 PM
DT were so lost image-wise during the '90s with Derek, not to mention it was their weakest period performance-wise too. It's like they thought they were huge rock band instead of a struggling prog band. I blame the '90s.
Those earlier JR years were the best all around imo, but the IaW era is great to watch too.
I totally agree with this, Derek was really cool, but the overall image of the band was so weird and random during that period. Say what you will about current DT, but they certainly do have a consistent image.
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 11, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.
Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.
Smoking looks cool? Er, okay.
@mikeyd23: I think that heavily depends on the person. I mean, I agree, those mid-90s hairdos were maybe a bit silly in hindsight, but those were the days where DT was experimenting, both music and style-wise.
I for one don't connect with the current "greasy biker shop" image. I find it less convincing (as in, does it reflect an aspect of their personality?) than the FII image. DT has been riding the "rororo, I'm a tough metal guy!!" image for such a long time, it would be nice for some fresh wind.
Quote from: Mindflux on May 10, 2014, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: Implode on May 10, 2014, 02:22:14 PM
He and his voice as since fully recovered, but some wonder what he might sound like now if he had never gotten sick.
"Fully Recovered". I dunno about that, he's definitely doing better than he has in a long time though.
You have to keep in mind that it's been 20 years. Realistically, even if he never did get the poisoning, I'd still be impressed if he sounded as good as he does now.
Quote from: KevShmev on May 12, 2014, 09:00:20 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 11, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.
Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.
Smoking looks cool? Er, okay.
Yeah, man, don't be such a square! :lol
You know, there's of course a good chance the food poisoning story happened as told. But somewhere in the back of my mind there's an alarm bell that says "cover story for something else". Maybe it's because when I listen to videos of the general era (before and after), I just don't hear this before-after cliff you would expect to hear when somebody majorly screwed up his voice.
I mean, are there videos that re shortly before and shortly after, and you can say "video 1: Hit all notes with ease, video 2: struggling"?
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 06:54:07 PM
You know, there's of course a good chance the food poisoning story happened as told. But somewhere in the back of my mind there's an alarm bell that says "cover story for something else". Maybe it's because when I listen to video of the general era (before and after), I just don't hear this before-after cliff you would expect to hear when somebody majorly screwed up his voice.
James actually died and they got a body double to replace him? You can hear clues about it if you play Space-Dye Vest backwards. :biggrin:
Ok, never mind my previous post. I'm just listening to Awake in Japan '95, and man, poor guy. Hearing how he just screams the stuff out... I'm actually wondering whether his decision to do the tour did more harm to his voice than the actual food poisoning incident. It's one thing to sprain your ankle, it's another to keep playing on the injured ankle.
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 07:19:50 PM
I'm actually wondering whether his decision to do the tour did more harm to his voice than the actual food poisoning incident.
I've had the same thought. His voice during that period still sounds okay, not nearly as shredded as it did during the FII tour. He should have done therapy on his throat or something.
The matter definitely wasn't made any easier by the fact that DT kept writing their music to be sung by a super-high pitched singer. They had kinda manoeuvered themselves into a corner by hiring a singer who was already anachronistic (in terms of style) the moment he started in the band, but then he screws up his voice and can't sing high, but really has no low register either.
I think that's where that much-criticized comment by MP about JLB comes from ("If I had to choose these days, I would go for a different singer")
I think had DT written their vocal lines to be less operatic/hair metal from the get go, any singer (JLB or whatever) would have had an easier time maintaining it over the course of his career.
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 08:41:25 PM
I think that's where that much-criticized comment by MP about JLB comes from ("If I had to choose these days, I would go for a different singer")
I think that comment had less to do with the specifics of DT and JLB's career and more to do with him wanting a singer for DT that was super badass and hardcore.
Sorry, ninja edit.
Yes, MP wanted a different style, but I think partially because they hired a perfect singer for a hair metal band at a time where that genre was already falling apart, and because that kind of singing is very hard to maintain over the years. Take more mid-range singers like Akerfeldt and Wilson. They will have little problem singing their songs 20 years from now. Hell, if anything their voices will get more character in that range. I always thought DT did themselves a disservice to write these super-high vocal lines. They just as well could have written more midrange ones.
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 04:06:38 PM
@mikeyd23: I think that heavily depends on the person. I mean, I agree, those mid-90s hairdos were maybe a bit silly in hindsight, but those were the days where DT was experimenting, both music and style-wise.
I for one don't connect with the current "greasy biker shop" image. I find it less convincing (as in, does it reflect an aspect of their personality?) than the FII image. DT has been riding the "rororo, I'm a tough metal guy!!" image for such a long time, it would be nice for some fresh wind.
Uh they're a plain looking prog band that wears black. That's about as neutral as it gets image wise! Without MP, I don't know where you can get the "tough guy" idea from.
Why would a bunch of guys in their 40s and 50s be experimenting with their image? At this stage, that implies they don't know who they are, or are trying to be something they're not. They're being themselves, not trying to latch on to some ill fitting style as they were doing during the FII era.
Come on blob, you will have to agree that especially the DT 12 promo shots were on a new level of "tough guy" image. MM's fake hair dying, JLB's facial hair, the leather jackets...
Just check out this image:
https://assets-s3.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/dream-theater-channel-prog-metal-in-dream-theater-premiere-20130916/1000x600/091213-dream-theater-600-1379014000.jpg
Or the The Looking Glass video for crying out loud.
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 08:52:13 PM
Sorry, ninja edit.
Yes, MP wanted a different style, but I think partially because they hired a perfect singer for a hair metal band at a time where that genre was already falling apart, and because that kind of singing is very hard to maintain over the years. Take more mid-range singers like Akerfeldt and Wilson. They will have little problem singing their songs 20 years from now. Hell, if anything their voices will get more character in that range. I always thought DT did themselves a disservice to write these super-high vocal lines. They just as well could have written more midrange ones.
I don't exactly disagree with what you're saying. Vocally speaking, DT made a lot of bad long-term bets.
But I'd argue you have to do the right thing artistically. JLB's To Live Forever demo is really magical. Even though all the I&W material was written without him, he fits into it perfectly. The Awake album is a vocal clinic. In a band that's supposed to feature highly technical music, shouldn't the vocal lines also be highly technical?
Lower range singers tend to age better, but you never know where JLB's voice would have ended up without the food poisoning.
On the last two albums, where JLB got more control over his melodies and performances, he's mostly handled his business very well. Singing higher up in his range, but not going above where he can reliably perform.
People say now that JLB's voice is about where it would be without the food poisoning, but I find that hard to believe. He sounds nothing live like he does on bootlegs, because they cut all the mids out of his voice. His midrange is actually very strong and full. It's the high ends and grittiness that are completely shredded. The stuff that really stretches his vocal chords. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if his voice had aged naturally it would all get worse together. The fact that his mid/mid-high range are totally fine and his higher range is destroyed makes it feel like his voice evolved very unnaturally. Like an athlete coming back from a major injury. They don't lose all their skills together like a naturally aging athlete. At a certain level, they're totally fine, but once they reach a threshold it all falls apart.
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 08:59:00 PM
Come on blob, you will have to agree that especially the DT 12 promo shots were on a new level of "tough guy" image. MM's fake hair dying, JLB's facial hair, the leather jackets...
Just check out this image:
https://assets-s3.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/dream-theater-channel-prog-metal-in-dream-theater-premiere-20130916/1000x600/091213-dream-theater-600-1379014000.jpg
Or the The Looking Glass video for crying out loud.
I never got the tough guy vibe.
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 08:59:00 PM
Come on blob, you will have to agree that especially the DT 12 promo shots were on a new level of "tough guy" image. MM's fake hair dying, JLB's facial hair, the leather jackets...
Just check out this image:
https://assets-s3.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/dream-theater-channel-prog-metal-in-dream-theater-premiere-20130916/1000x600/091213-dream-theater-600-1379014000.jpg
Or the The Looking Glass video for crying out loud.
Maybe back in 1980 that would have said tough guy, but that's all very standard stuff these days, and they've always looked super serious in their promo shots, since it's prog, and they're awkward. :lol
And I don't remember anything remotely tough guy about The Looking Glass video. Maybe you shouldn't walk the streets alone at night if that seems tough to you. :P
I don't think the DT12 promo shots are any more "tough" or metal than those from the SC/BC&SL era. ADTOE was actually a step away from that image, although that may have had something to do with James' shorter hair.
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 12, 2014, 09:08:18 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 08:52:13 PM
Sorry, ninja edit.
Yes, MP wanted a different style, but I think partially because they hired a perfect singer for a hair metal band at a time where that genre was already falling apart, and because that kind of singing is very hard to maintain over the years. Take more mid-range singers like Akerfeldt and Wilson. They will have little problem singing their songs 20 years from now. Hell, if anything their voices will get more character in that range. I always thought DT did themselves a disservice to write these super-high vocal lines. They just as well could have written more midrange ones.
I don't exactly disagree with what you're saying. Vocally speaking, DT made a lot of bad long-term bets.
But I'd argue you have to do the right thing artistically. JLB's To Live Forever demo is really magical. Even though all the I&W material was written without him, he fits into it perfectly. The Awake album is a vocal clinic. In a band that's supposed to feature highly technical music, shouldn't the vocal lines also be highly technical?
Lower range singers tend to age better, but you never know where JLB's voice would have ended up without the food poisoning.
On the last two albums, where JLB got more control over his melodies and performances, he's mostly handled his business very well. Singing higher up in his range, but not going above where he can reliably perform.
People say now that JLB's voice is about where it would be without the food poisoning, but I find that hard to believe. He sounds nothing live like he does on bootlegs, because they cut all the mids out of his voice. His midrange is actually very strong and full. It's the high ends and grittiness that are completely shredded. The stuff that really stretches his vocal chords. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if his voice had aged naturally it would all get worse together. The fact that his mid/mid-high range are totally fine and his higher range is destroyed makes it feel like his voice evolved very unnaturally. Like an athlete coming back from a major injury. They don't lose all their skills together like a naturally aging athlete. At a certain level, they're totally fine, but once they reach a threshold it all falls apart.
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 08:59:00 PM
Come on blob, you will have to agree that especially the DT 12 promo shots were on a new level of "tough guy" image. MM's fake hair dying, JLB's facial hair, the leather jackets...
Just check out this image:
https://assets-s3.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/dream-theater-channel-prog-metal-in-dream-theater-premiere-20130916/1000x600/091213-dream-theater-600-1379014000.jpg
Or the The Looking Glass video for crying out loud.
I never got the tough guy vibe.
I do not think that is true. The majority of vocalists tend to lose their high range to a certain degree due to ageing. If they lose almost all vocal capabilaties, that is usually due to destroying their voice over the years. The latter is something that happens to quite some rock/metal vocalists as they really strain their vocal chords and/or use bad singing techniques.
I agree with the notion that Labrie probably would have sounded similar by now without the accident. You can also argue the other way around; maybe he would have sounded worse as the accident might have teached him how to preserve his voice better in some ways (in the mid range, at least). I'm no expert on food poisoning, but rupturing your vocal chords due to vomiting sounds like there was some damage already to me. Well never really know, but I think the chances are really, really slim for any vocalist to maintain the young Labrie style on the long term.
I agree with you, however, that the early years were definately the right thing to do artistically. Art would be pretty limited (regardless of talking about dancing, singing, drums, sports etc.) if every artist would aim to be able to do the same stuff until they are 70.
All that said, I was pleasantly surprised how Labrie sounds this tour and how he handles the Awake songs.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 12, 2014, 08:55:40 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 04:06:38 PM
@mikeyd23: I think that heavily depends on the person. I mean, I agree, those mid-90s hairdos were maybe a bit silly in hindsight, but those were the days where DT was experimenting, both music and style-wise.
I for one don't connect with the current "greasy biker shop" image. I find it less convincing (as in, does it reflect an aspect of their personality?) than the FII image. DT has been riding the "rororo, I'm a tough metal guy!!" image for such a long time, it would be nice for some fresh wind.
Uh they're a plain looking prog band that wears black. That's about as neutral as it gets image wise! Without MP, I don't know where you can get the "tough guy" idea from.
Why would a bunch of guys in their 40s and 50s be experimenting with their image? At this stage, that implies they don't know who they are, or are trying to be something they're not. They're being themselves, not trying to latch on to some ill fitting style as they were doing during the FII era.
Yeah, Blob nailed it here... I get that image comes down to personal preference, heck its style, anything related to style is going to be based on preference and will vary person to person. But my point was that DT now has a stable, consistent look. Whether you like the look or not is of no consequence. They pretty much wear black pants and shirts, with occasional color popping up here and there, thats pretty standard and plain in the world of bands nowadays.
I was in a band that almost signed a record deal with a label and the thing we kept hearing over and over again from them regarding our image, was that whatever our image was it needed to be consistent among all members so it looked like a group style that was shared. DT did not have that in the FII era...
re new image: Yeah I don't really get the "tough guy" vibe the DT12 promo pictures, I think they're really in good taste, especially the one rumbo linked. At least the majority of them have to wear long sleeves so that they don't look like teenagers, and if more than one of them wears the same black button-up shirt (the most "mature" solution) it would look silly, so why not opt for lightweight leather jackets? MM's zipper longsleeve isn't too distracting either.
And I don't get how MM is "fake dyeing" his hair, he's pretty much for realsies dyeing it? :biggrin: JLB's been doing that for twenty years anyway, and MM dyes it to his natural shade so it's not exactly noticeable. You'd think that after JP's super saiyan hair/Hot Topic phase and MP's blue beard we'd grow a thicker skin :corn black shirts with subtle designs (they've ditched most of the Ed Hardy stuff) and dark jeans are basically a step away from streetwear, and they look like dudes who've been doing metal for more than 25 years, which they are. Just because they're more known for their musicianship than for anything else doesn't mean that they should cut the hair and ditch the black.
re the Octavariumly recurring JLB discussion: whenever I felt sorry for the fact that the food poisoning had happened, I was almost always sorry not for what "he could have sounded like now" (it's not like he can sound better for his age than he does already, and his voice sounds like it naturally changed over time now, anyway), but for the "lost" years in between. Think of Awake being performed in full potential of his young voice on tour (we only have a couple of recordings showcasing this), OIALT being a solid gold performance, Live Scenes too (he was VERY solid in there, but we coulda had a DVD quality performance of the elusive F#), full stability on tours up to Octavarium etc. Realistically he would have hit his prime somewhere between FII and SDOIT, learning how to control his voice wonderfully while regaining its full range and power.
OMGZZZZZZ the guys dye their hair?!?!??! >:(
POSERS!!!
They might as well mime their respective instruments.
GREEN FONT!!!
Eh. I don't know, I loved their "geeky metal" image back in the day. The current image, while I understand that it appeals to the metalheads, doesn't do anything for me.
At what point did James have a face transplant?
Quote from: rumborak on May 13, 2014, 03:32:45 PM
Eh. I don't know, I loved their "geeky metal" image back in the day. The current image, while I understand that it appeals to the metalheads, doesn't do anything for me.
I personally really liked the ridiculous fluffy era, but past a certain age and in a more minimalist era, whatcha gonna wear and still be comfy on stage?
And I get your point but they kinda sorta
are a metal band, for metalheads. That's their bread and butter.
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on May 13, 2014, 04:19:36 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 13, 2014, 03:32:45 PM
Eh. I don't know, I loved their "geeky metal" image back in the day. The current image, while I understand that it appeals to the metalheads, doesn't do anything for me.
I personally really liked the ridiculous fluffy era, but past a certain age and in a more minimalist era, whatcha gonna wear and still be comfy on stage?
And I get your point but they kinda sorta are a metal band, for metalheads. That's their bread and butter. SALMON AND SMALL MAMMALS
Fix'd
ITT: Discussion about James' vocal performance devolves into bickering about modern image of the band.
Here's the full show from the Rudess Experiment in '94: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpEx7pDIq8A
Man, what I would give for a few more years of that voice.
Yeah, maybe his voice wouldn't be any different today if he didn't get sick, but I think we can agree that at least the second half of the 90s was a lost era for DT live shows in regards to James' voice, at least compared to what could have been.
Quote from: Shine on May 13, 2014, 07:42:59 PM
Here's the full show from the Rudess Experiment in '94: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpEx7pDIq8A
Thanks for the link, that was fun to watch!
Quote from: Shine on May 13, 2014, 07:42:59 PM
Yeah, maybe his voice wouldn't be any different today if he didn't get sick, but I think we can agree that at least the second half of the 90s was a lost era for DT live shows in regards to James' voice, at least compared to what could have been.
Yes exactly what I'm saying. If anyone is unsure of the difference the accident made, watch anything from Minneapolis 1994 and then watch Surrounded and Voices here- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPs7-5-buh0&feature=youtu.be
Seriously, that "Rudess Experiment" might have been one of the best DT shows I have ever seen. That was incredible. I also totally loved the ending of TTT, with JR and JP doing doubled runs. They should revive that.
I'm still amazed that JR was able to pretty much nail the entire show for his first (and at the time only) DT show, and still manage to add a lot of top of that, while by OIALT, DS was still fumbling through many of the songs, with a much more limited range of sounds. JR was the right man for the job all along.
Quote from: TheAtliator on May 14, 2014, 07:48:45 AM
Quote from: Shine on May 13, 2014, 07:42:59 PM
Yeah, maybe his voice wouldn't be any different today if he didn't get sick, but I think we can agree that at least the second half of the 90s was a lost era for DT live shows in regards to James' voice, at least compared to what could have been.
Yes exactly what I'm saying. If anyone is unsure of the difference the accident made, watch anything from Minneapolis 1994 and then watch Surrounded and Voices here- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPs7-5-buh0&feature=youtu.be
:( He wasn't even able to attempt those higher parts, he had to just hover around the same few lower notes. It's impressive how he has recovered that range.
Quote from: rumborak on May 14, 2014, 07:49:45 AM
Seriously, that "Rudess Experiment" might have been one of the best DT shows I have ever seen. That was incredible. I also totally loved the ending of TTT, with JR and JP doing doubled runs. They should revive that.
Yeah the unison lines at the end of the show were SWEEET!
:metal
Would it be so bad to say that I prefer current performances? I LOVE early 90's James, but now he has a very close presence with mcuh more subtlety, precision and softness when necessary. At least as far as I see it.
Quote from: IdoSC on May 14, 2014, 11:04:17 AM
Would it be so bad to say that I prefer current performances? I LOVE early 90's James, but now he has a very close presence with mcuh more subtlety, precision and softness when necessary. At least as far as I see it.
No, that's a perfectly valid opinion and I agree. In the early days James had a lot of range but couldn't control his voice very well - I recently listened to the Milwaukee '93 bootleg and his voice was cracking at some points. Nowadays he can sing without screaming his way through all the songs yet he hits all (or at least most of) the high notes. I also think his low/mid register singing has more warmth to it nowadays.
Quote from: rumborak on May 11, 2014, 12:13:44 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 11, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.
Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.
The Derek phase was performance-wise one of the most enjoyable. Lava lamps, TVs on stage, then the occasional antics (Nightmare Cinema), and even acoustic sets. And Derek himself is coolness in person anyway.
Not that the current stage show is bad, but they lately rely a lot on video screens for their visuals. In the Derek days the stage had a lot going on.
Speaking of which...I did NOT forget to ask about the lava lamps, by the way. When I saw them in SF, EBMM was in the middle of their promo for the rollout of the new majesty guitar, and there was a huge contingent of EMBB folks there. I spoke to JP a few times that day, but the conversations were always short and rushed because of all the stuff going on with the EBMM folks, and John also wanting to spend a bit of time with Frank Aresti, who was at the show with his wife. So I didn't really get a chance to bring it up in a way that wouldn't have sounded forced and weird instead of being a fun, jokey moment. But I am filing that question away and will try to bring it out at some point.
The question remains a mystery!! :lol
:dunno: Sorry. I fully intended to bring it up, but it was just insane how busy and distracted he was. I had a bunch of others I wanted to ask that I didn't get to as well. I think I talked to Matt Guillory almost as long as I talked to JP that day. :lol But I did get to see MM's drum kit up close, which was amazing.
Yes it is!
Quote from: bosk1 on May 14, 2014, 01:32:22 PM
I think I talked to Matt Guillory almost as long as I talked to JP that day. :lol
That sounds perfectly logical to me :heart
One thing I've always considered, is what When Dream and Day Re-Unite would have sounded like with James going all in. He was clearly being a bit reserved that night (eg. no intense screams during The Killing Hand), less aggression and less raspy techniques. In some ways, I thought he replicated the melodies that Charlie was hitting spot on, but he didn't interpret the vocals in his own style like he did say, during the I&W tour. I get the feeling he listened to WDADU on repeat while he slept the night before and forgot about all the nice little touches he'd been adding over the years because there's definitely superior versions of all of those songs out there. :lol
I mean like OIAL, I feel like WDADrU should have been a complete classic instead of a novelty.
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 14, 2014, 07:13:58 PM
One thing I've always considered, is what When Dream and Day Re-Unite would have sounded like with James going all in. He was clearly being a bit reserved that night (eg. no intense screams during The Killing Hand), less aggression and less raspy techniques. In some ways, I thought he replicated the melodies that Charlie was hitting spot on, but he didn't interpret the vocals in his own style like he did say, during the I&W tour. I get the feeling he listened to WDADU on repeat while he slept the night before and forgot about all the nice little touches he'd been adding over the years because there's definitely superior versions of all of those songs out there. :lol
I mean like OIAL, I feel like WDADrU should have been a complete classic instead of a novelty.
Pretty good description of that show and I agree for the most part.
However, keep in mind that this show was after they already played for an hour and a half or so. It was also right in the middle of their tour and it was a one off thing so nobody could get too comfortable with the songs.
Yes, very fair point. Although it's unfortunate this is the excuse (even if also, a completely valid reason) for a couple of their live songs. The Mind Beside Itself Suite at the end of LSFNY and A Change of Seasons/Learning to Live from that same show suffer a similar fate, because they were 'worn out after playing a huge set'. I mean, fair enough, it'll happen if you're going for so long. How about we put ACOS in a slot, somewhere other than an encore next time? Then we might get the definitive live versions of these songs.
I think another example of this is Master of Puppets and Number of the Beast DT covers, which undoubtedly suffered the same fate as WDADrU, James was just worn out completely. He could have done both of these albums more justice as he has the pipes for it (even if his style might differ in various ways to Dickinson and Hetfield), but due to these "surprise sets" being near the end of a big show, it does seem to take a small toll on the released version of the performances.
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 14, 2014, 10:55:54 PM
I think another example of this is Master of Puppets and Number of the Beast DT covers,
Pretty sure the Beast vocals were re done in the studio, which actually makes it worse. Those albums were not good fits for him.
The 4/24/04 Osaka Boot has a much better version of them doing the Number Of The Beast album. Even Jordan is more engaged.
Quote from: TAC on May 15, 2014, 05:09:50 PM
The 4/24/04 Osaka Boot has a much better version of them doing the Number Of The Beast album. Even Jordan is more engaged.
I agree with this. That last note in Children of the Damned...
I'm uploading Minneapolis for those interested, by the way. Is anyone still interested? It's a big amount of time, and if nobody is I'll gladly use my bandwidth for something else this weekend :P
Quote from: wasteland on May 17, 2014, 06:20:21 AM
I'm uploading Minneapolis for those interested, by the way. Is anyone still interested? It's a big amount of time, and if nobody is I'll gladly use my bandwidth for something else this weekend :P
Audio or video? I'm interested for sure!
Video. It's the full bootleg where the OP video was taken from.
I would be interested too. Thanks
Quote from: nikatapi on May 17, 2014, 08:37:31 AM
Quote from: wasteland on May 17, 2014, 06:20:21 AM
I'm uploading Minneapolis for those interested, by the way. Is anyone still interested? It's a big amount of time, and if nobody is I'll gladly use my bandwidth for something else this weekend :P
Audio or video? I'm interested for sure!
I'm interested as well.
There you go people! https://1drv.ms/S6Ptn4
Thank you very much Mr Wasteland, Sir!
Much appreciated Wasteland :tup
Thank you! ;D THis is legendary. :tup
Thanks a lot!!! :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
As for JLB vocals, I have a different opinion, it's not his voice that's "out of fashion", it's the melodies they make him sing. Whenever they attempt to do anything other that that metal style, James sound pretty good actually, more if they don't force him to go uber high.
And I also like the 90's image, I have to agree with rumborak on the images, it could be my dislike for the whole metal image that plays a huge factor, but I prefer most of them with short hair and less metal look except for JM, the only one who I think can pull it off. And the way they dress onstage is tiny a bit too streetwear also, but hey, it's not a big deal. Nothing beats them at the Grammys, that was weird. :lol
Quote from: rumborak on May 11, 2014, 12:13:44 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 11, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.
Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.
The Derek phase was performance-wise one of the most enjoyable. Lava lamps, TVs on stage, then the occasional antics (Nightmare Cinema), and even acoustic sets. And Derek himself is coolness in person anyway.
Not that the current stage show is bad, but they lately rely a lot on video screens for their visuals. In the Derek days the stage had a lot going on.
Huge difference of opinion here. I almost threw in the towel on them in early '98. From the outside looking in, it just seemed like it was a matter of time (oops!) before the outside pressures did the band in. I didn't like what they were becoming at all.
Always easier to say in hindsight, but Derek became the poster boy to all that went wrong then. At least he did to me. I think the performance standards took a hit in those years too.
Derek was/is completely cool in person though. No doubt about that. Met him several times during those years.
Quote from: wasteland on May 18, 2014, 06:54:51 AM
There you go people! https://1drv.ms/S6Ptn4
Thanks a lot! But, I'm having trouble downloading it, it'll only download 257k. Probably because I'm on a Mac. Does anyone have an alernate download link that isn't hosted on Skydrive?
Quote from: ytserush on May 24, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 11, 2014, 12:13:44 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 11, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.
Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.
The Derek phase was performance-wise one of the most enjoyable. Lava lamps, TVs on stage, then the occasional antics (Nightmare Cinema), and even acoustic sets. And Derek himself is coolness in person anyway.
Not that the current stage show is bad, but they lately rely a lot on video screens for their visuals. In the Derek days the stage had a lot going on.
Huge difference of opinion here. I almost threw in the towel on them in early '98. From the outside looking in, it just seemed like it was a matter of time (oops!) before the outside pressures did the band in. I didn't like what they were becoming at all.
Always easier to say in hindsight, but Derek became the poster boy to all that went wrong then. At least he did to me. I think the performance standards took a hit in those years too.
Derek was/is completely cool in person though. No doubt about that. Met him several times during those years.
Of course it all comes down to opinion in the end. I know a lot of people here see the switch to JR as an unequivocal trade up, but I think they chipped away at a thing they would never regain from there on: character. Derek infused the band with a lot of unique character (sound and personality I wise), and so did MP. There's no question that JR and MM are exceptionally skilled musicians, but I gotta be honest with you, those changes made DT more and more reliant on JP as the creative input. Like, MP obviously left his indelible mark on the DT sound, and Derek even supplied a full song on FII, one which I think is brilliant. And look at what he wrote later for Planet X.
These days there's maybe a drum full or a small piano break from JR and MM, but that's the extent of it really.
I'm with John on this one. The Derek years were so awkward. And while it didn't really have anything to do with Derek, I never understood them giving him permanent member status so quickly. Seemed like a hired gun, and a step down from KevMo.
In what way was Derek a step down? Performance-wise he was a step up, because KM's stage performance usually meant lifting up the occasional edge of his keyboard. In terms of skill on the keyboard, I would say they're on par.
Composition-wise I agree with you, since KM provided ample music and lyrics. However, under that criterion, JR is a huge step down, since he neither writes lyrics, nor does he write songs.
I dunno, I have the suspicion that a good amount of the bad rep for Derek comes from MP. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Derek's rather unceremonious dismissal was because he wasn't willing to just be a "hired gun", whereas JR seems to have been fine with that status (Paul Northfield used exactly that term to describe JR during the SFAM time). I can totally see MP not liking to suddenly have to deal with 2 songwriters instead of the one he has a good handle on.
In what way was Derek a step down? Performance-wise he was a step up, because KM's stage performance usually meant lifting up the occasional edge of his keyboard. In terms of skill on the keyboard, I would say they're on par.
Composition-wise I agree with you, since KM provided ample music and lyrics. However, under that criterion, JR is a huge step down, since he neither writes lyrics, nor does he write songs.
I dunno, I have the suspicion that a good amount of the bad rep for Derek comes from MP. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Derek's rather unceremonious dismissal was because he wasn't willing to just be a "hired gun", whereas JR seems to have been fine with that status (Paul Northfield used exactly that term to describe JR during the SFAM time). I can totally see MP not liking to suddenly have to deal with 2 songwriters instead of the one he has a good handle on.
Geez Rumbo, you feel so strongly that you had to post twice! :P
To me, he just never fit. Maybe he was just as skilled as Kev. But he just felt like an outsider. He basically jumped from Alice Cooper's band to Dream Theater. Obviously I knew who he was and I guess I did question his chops at first. But once I heard ACOS, i knew he could play.
I saw DT 5 times with Derek, and he brought no more performance wise than Kevin did. Granted, he was not a permanent member for a couple of those shows, but still..
That whole FII era is strange. I never listen to any boots from that era. Like gawky pre teen years I guess. I don't dislike Derek. I just am not in love with that era. And I say "step down" because DT just seemed to be missing "something". Maybe they just lost their way and it had nothing to do with Derek, but I've always looked at the band in that period as having four and a half members. I don't know how to explain it, really.
Let me also say that I think Derek handled his unceremonious dumping by DT with exceptional grace. And I feel like it was good for him to be there with them during that tumultuous period, as he was already an established professional musician. Sometimes i feel like his experience on the road and such is an extremely underrated factor of DT coming out the other side of that era a stronger band.
I think Derek fit fantastically honestly. I feel if he was given more time with a couple more studio releases, more DT fans opinions would change. If you listen to him outside of DT, and after his stint with them - he really is an incredibly technically talented keyboardist. He sounded fantastic from what he was on IMO and I feel like he brought a lot to DT.
It's hard for me to 'pick' between DT's three keyboardists because they're all honestly amazing fits for the band. For different reasons.
I think one aspect he brought to DT's live performances is to not take themselves too seriously. Nightmare Cinema was born, and also only existed, in that era.
I hate to compare DT to Rush, but what makes Rush's performances so great is that they make you feel as if you stepped into the Rush mancave where they're drinking beer, cracking jokes, and happen to have set up instruments that they then play on. I always thought that the Derek era was the only era where you got the idea that they're having a blast on stage.
With DS in the band, they became less progressive metal and more progressive hard rock. I like a lot of what DT did that phase of their career, but abandoning the metal part of their identity would have ruined their careers. I also sense, based on what the band's written, that it's not really what they wanted to do.
Even though JR doesn't really seem to listen to much metal, he's very much a prog keyboardist. So you can graft him onto JP's guitars and get prog metal. While DS seems to be a bigger fan of heavier music, it's hard to imagine him doing the straight metal (TGP) or straight prog (TITL) parts of DT's music.
It's hard to totally know what the band as a whole thought of the FII era. MP hated it, but that's him. MP hates the production on I&W, but JM mentioned in an interview that he really likes it. So who knows.
But I suspect that, when they fired Derek and hired Jordan, the other members felt that the identity of the band was getting muddled. For all that people (rightfully) praise KM, they forget that he was basically a prog keyboardist in DT. I think they wanted another prog keyboardist to get back to their roots.
It clearly worked.
Quote from: rumborak on May 25, 2014, 02:21:52 PM
I think one aspect he brought to DT's live performances is to not take themselves too seriously. Nightmare Cinema was born, and also only existed, in that era.
I hate to compare DT to Rush, but what makes Rush's performances so great is that they make you feel as if you stepped into the Rush mancave where they're drinking beer, cracking jokes, and happen to have set up instruments that they then play on. I always thought that the Derek era was the only era where you got the idea that they're having a blast on stage.
The last time I saw them with Derek was the FIRST night of the FII tour in Providence. Up until that point, Nightmare Cinema had not reared its head. So my experience was that he seemed pretty serious, almost trying to keep up. I feel like Nightmare Cinema came about as the band just seemed to lose its grip and focus.
And Rush wasn't always like this.
@Reapsta: I just have to ask, have you listened to Planet X? Compared to that stuff, DT plays mainstream prog. Derek can clearly rock it out based on what he did with Alice Cooper and Black Country Communion, but I would argue you see the true heart of a musician when you hear the stuff he writes himself. And what Derek wrote in his solo albums and with Planet X, it's so prog, to this day I don't understand parts of their songs rhythmically (whereas DT's rhythmical structures have actually gotten easier over the years).
Quote from: rumborak on May 25, 2014, 05:25:55 PM
@Reapsta: I just have to ask, have you listened to Planet X? Compared to that stuff, DT plays mainstream prog. Derek can clearly rock it out based on what he did with Alice Cooper and Black Country Communion, but I would argue you see the true heart of a musician when you hear the stuff he writes himself. And what Derek wrote in his solo albums and with Planet X, it's so prog, to this day I don't understand parts of their songs rhythmically (whereas DT's rhythmical structures have actually gotten easier over the years).
For realsies. He writes some crazy stuff, which is what baffles me when people say that his technical chops aren't good enough.
But he'll tell you that it was his time in DT that really opened that part of himself up, playing wise.
He might have had something to prove with Planet X and that sort of stuff after being essentially kicked out and replaced by another virtuoso player for musical reasons. He sure did prove that he would have been awesome and could have played an interesting role in an alternate universe DT line-up though. :corn
DS was a step down from KM at the time. DS fumbled a lot of the parts, and wasn't very good at replicating the sound of the studio tracks. KM was always super serious, but I think DS should have focused on nailing the parts before he started messing around on stage. JR manages to be the best of both worlds, being the best performance wise, and still having a lot of fun on stage. Best thing that ever happened to DT.
While the above points are all correct, I can at the same time only dream what DS would have contributed music-wise to DT had he stayed, based on what he later did in Planet X.
Also, of the three keyboardists, he is my favorite in terms of solos. KM had good melodies for his solos but weak sounds, and JR's solos are, sorry, 90% total throwaway.
Rumbo, while I agree with the above posters that DS did Planet X partly as a reaction to leaving DT, it's definitely more prog metal than what he was writing in DT.
SFAM and SDOIT alone cancel out any possible theoretical scenarios to me. They booted DS out of the band not a moment too soon. While FII is my #4 DT album, what DS contributed to the band pales in comparison to what JR added.
But then again, seeing how much of SFAM was written with Derek, SDOIT is probably the first proper sample of unique JR's sound and ideas transferred onto DT.
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on May 26, 2014, 08:13:00 AM
But then again, seeing how much of SFAM was written with Derek, SDOIT is probably the first proper sample of unique JR's sound and ideas transferred onto DT.
Despite his participation in the SFAM "demo", I don't believe DS contributed much to the final album at all. SFAM is in fact arguably the most undiluted "JR" that JR has ever been allowed to be in DT, aside from maybe SDOIT. JR's stamp is undeniably all over SFAM from start to finish, and that fresh sound is a lot of what makes that album so amazing imo, not the tiny dribs and drabs drafted while DS happened to be in the band.
The demo was mostly 20 minutes of rough noodling, and how much of that made it in? Some main keyboard parts of Overture 1928 are in there, the outro run from TDOE that is just doubling JP, which I would assume JP wrote anyway based on the pattern and performance, and sections of One Last Time that are based around a signature JP melody, where the keyboard is just playing the most rudimentary of accompaniment on a hammond, which got replaced with something better by JR. I was skimming, so maybe there's something else in there too, but no developed ideas or signature DS parts that I spotted.
So only a small portion of the final album was even written while DS was in the band, and I'd only credit him with himself writing an even smaller portion of that. I'd only give him credit for Overture 1928. Had he not been involved, it would hardly have changed a thing imo. The greatness of SFAM comes largely from the fresh writing dynamic of JP/JR.
Do you have any insider info on how Metropolis Part 2 was written? To me, it seems like DS should have writing credits on Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, maybe TDOE, and OLT. Even the minor accompanying sections are still songwriting.
The Metropolis pt 2 demo gives a ton of info as to how it was written, if you're familiar with the style of each musician, and the writing process in general. Accompaniment only counts as songwriting if you wrote the progression. Accompanying an already written progression doesn't.
In the case of OLT, that certainly appears to be the case. In the case of TDOE, he's only doubling JP (not all that well either, and I don't for a second believe he wrote it). The only unique thing I near from DS in the Metropolis pt 2 demo is Overture 1928, which as I noted before, I'd credit him for. Everything else he played (of the parts that made it into the album) is basic level accompaniment and/or doubling to what JP is doing.
To think he contributed enough to the album to support MoraWintersoul's point is unfounded imo.
Blob, I think you're heavily overplaying Jordan's influence in the songwriting. Check out this comment by Paul Northfield, talking about Jordan's role in the writing of Systematic Chaos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYgAPl4UDUo#t=8150
I see no reason why that would have been different for SFAM, where he had just joined the band.
I mean, maybe he has a bigger role in the writing these days now that MP is gone, but sound-wise it doesn't sound like it. And from Paul Northfield's comments about ADTOE, it's all JP these days.
I think ADTOE had a lot of Jordan. Even the harder songs, like BMUBMD, have keyboard elements that go beyond "orchestration."
DT12 though feels like a far more JP influenced project. Very few if any moments that make me think "oh yeah, total JR thing here."
Quote from: rumborak on May 26, 2014, 06:38:54 AM
While the above points are all correct, I can at the same time only dream what DS would have contributed music-wise to DT had he stayed, based on what he later did in Planet X.
Also, of the three keyboardists, he is my favorite in terms of solos. KM had good melodies for his solos but weak sounds, and JR's solos are, sorry, 90% total throwaway.
Well, in fairness, those other keyboardist have had a lot less time to disappoint you with the presentation of their solos. Derek gets 1 and a half albums and Kevin gets 3 where as Jordan has at least 8 albums worth of DT material, and many more related projects. Although I think you're onto something I agree with, in that Derek had a good ear for tone and sound which can make a simple melody or passage much more appealing, which is something KM never got right with me despite coming up with some amazing keyboard leads. Even in OSI these days he's more about the ambient noises and the rhythmic sound effects. But Jordan has some hits and misses, which I think is he same for the other keyboardists, it's just their 'misses' are relatively lower by default, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're more consistent, I believe they just didn't have enough time to disenchant you. JR is constantly trying out new sounds in the music he plays, and continues to play around with sounds outside of DT with his digital sound manipulation programmes. And if I'm honest, some of Jordans solos have completely blown my mind from lack of comprehension and sheer amazement at some of the scale patterns and arpeggios that he plays at astonishing speeds. I know playing is not all about speed but when he hammers on the right heartstrings and plays very high energy solos sometimes while his left hand is taking care of the ambient stuff. It really proves to me that he's on a whole 'nother level. :millahhhh
Quote from: rumborak on May 26, 2014, 02:25:56 PM
Blob, I think you're heavily overplaying Jordan's influence in the songwriting. Check out this comment by Paul Northfield, talking about Jordan's role in the writing of Systematic Chaos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYgAPl4UDUo#t=8150
I see no reason why that would have been different for SFAM, where he had just joined the band.
I mean, maybe he has a bigger role in the writing these days now that MP is gone, but sound-wise it doesn't sound like it. And from Paul Northfield's comments about ADTOE, it's all JP these days.
The difference in JR's influence between SFAM and SC (and later albums) is obvious though if you listen to the albums. On SC/BCASL, JR was more restricted in what he could contribute with the heavier riffs and heavier style, and everyone suspects the dynamic was different in the later MP days too. Even the most recent albums, it sounds like the JP show, and JR kind of has to work around that.
SFAM and SDOIT are the two albums where you can easily hear JR's songwriting influence. After that was a completely different beast. What Paul Northfield says about SC has zero relevance to SFAM.
Quote from: rumborak on May 25, 2014, 09:39:19 AM
Quote from: ytserush on May 24, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 11, 2014, 12:13:44 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 11, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
During Lie, you can see Derek smoking as he plays the keyboards.
Dream Theater was just cooler back in the day man.
The Derek phase was performance-wise one of the most enjoyable. Lava lamps, TVs on stage, then the occasional antics (Nightmare Cinema), and even acoustic sets. And Derek himself is coolness in person anyway.
Not that the current stage show is bad, but they lately rely a lot on video screens for their visuals. In the Derek days the stage had a lot going on.
Huge difference of opinion here. I almost threw in the towel on them in early '98. From the outside looking in, it just seemed like it was a matter of time (oops!) before the outside pressures did the band in. I didn't like what they were becoming at all.
Always easier to say in hindsight, but Derek became the poster boy to all that went wrong then. At least he did to me. I think the performance standards took a hit in those years too.
Derek was/is completely cool in person though. No doubt about that. Met him several times during those years.
Of course it all comes down to opinion in the end. I know a lot of people here see the switch to JR as an unequivocal trade up, but I think they chipped away at a thing they would never regain from there on: character. Derek infused the band with a lot of unique character (sound and personality I wise), and so did MP. There's no question that JR and MM are exceptionally skilled musicians, but I gotta be honest with you, those changes made DT more and more reliant on JP as the creative input. Like, MP obviously left his indelible mark on the DT sound, and Derek even supplied a full song on FII, one which I think is brilliant. And look at what he wrote later for Planet X.
These days there's maybe a drum full or a small piano break from JR and MM, but that's the extent of it really.
I don't share your fondness for most Derek contributions (performances, fashion sense, humor, contributions) while he was in the band, but I will COMPLETELY agree with your assessment of his work after he left (at least as far as his solo stuff and Planet X is concerned) I LOVE that stuff and it's obvious that he learned quite a bit from being in Dream Theater. My contention has always been that he was not the right fit for Dream Theater. I'll admit that in retrospect things aren't quite as bad as it was when I was living through that period and there is quite a lot to like there (except Anna Lee. Never changing my mind on that one.)
As far as Jordan goes, I'm firmly in the camp that they should just turn the guy loose and let him be creative and impose fewer boundaries.
Quote from: ytserush on May 28, 2014, 10:33:08 AM
I don't share your fondness for most Derek contributions (performances, fashion sense, humor, contributions) while he was in the band, but I will COMPLETELY agree with your assessment of his work after he left (at least as far as his solo stuff and Planet X is concerned) I LOVE that stuff and it's obvious that he learned quite a bit from being in Dream Theater. My contention has always been that he was not the right fit for Dream Theater. I'll admit that in retrospect things aren't quite as bad as it was when I was living through that period and there is quite a lot to like there (except Anna Lee. Never changing my mind on that one.)
As far as Jordan goes, I'm firmly in the camp that they should just turn the guy loose and let him be creative and impose fewer boundaries.
Yup.
So are there any bootlegs of Learning to Live from 93/94?
Quote from: Shine on July 18, 2014, 02:24:54 PM
So are there any bootlegs of Learning to Live from 93/94?
Yes, actually! There's one from a very good bootleg I have called Lost In The Sky from Milan, 93. Closes the show.
Funny you mentioned it.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10382444_10203462796362480_3842319690620922753_n.jpg?oh=a4d75dab9bbcfca26cd66e854af01152&oe=543D6D40&__gda__=1414413861_b6d8b1b70b2ac14738b4cd8b79b6c6e1)
Haha! It's the first example I could think of, so now that means I've got it playing naturally now.
Quote from: Öxölklöfför on May 24, 2014, 01:26:58 PM
Quote from: wasteland on May 18, 2014, 06:54:51 AM
There you go people! https://1drv.ms/S6Ptn4
Thanks a lot! But, I'm having trouble downloading it, it'll only download 257k. Probably because I'm on a Mac. Does anyone have an alernate download link that isn't hosted on Skydrive?
I've had this problem before. It stopped randomly
Try a different browser?
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 26, 2014, 10:44:37 AM
Do you have any insider info on how Metropolis Part 2 was written? To me, it seems like DS should have writing credits on Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, maybe TDOE, and OLT. Even the minor accompanying sections are still songwriting.
My guess would be that when Derek was fired, any severance pay or whatever he received was given under the condition that he forfeit songwriting credit and/or (any more) monetary compensation on anything used on later albums that might have come about in jams/demos/etc. when was still in the band. That could apply to the parts that ended up in Scenes... or Raise the Knife ending up on Score.
Quote from: rumborak on May 25, 2014, 09:39:19 AM
Derek even supplied a full song on FII
Which song is that?
Why is that in sarcasm green? It is the song he contributed. He even reused the tune on his solo album.
Because of Five Years in a LIVEtime commentary, Petrucci says the music wasn't all Derek's.
Quote from: GentlemanofDread on July 19, 2014, 01:15:17 PM
Because of Five Years in a LIVEtime commentary, Petrucci says the music wasn't all Derek's.
Petrucci actually got a little defensive when Mike mentioned it was pretty much just Derek with James adding lyrics
I'd let him have the credit for the most boring song in DT's catalog.
I'd rather listen to Forsaken.
Enigma Machine is three times as boring as Anna Lee, IMHO.
Quote from: rumborak on July 19, 2014, 07:43:22 PM
Enigma Machine is three times as boring as Anna Lee, IMHO.
Agreed.
Quote from: rumborak on July 19, 2014, 07:43:22 PM
Enigma Machine is three times as boring as Anna Lee, IMHO.
My independent testing actually puts it at more like 7.2x more boring. Anna Lee is a beautiful song.
Both are boring, the difference being Enigma Machine has energy.
The difference being Anne Lee is a song, and not just a few riffs thrown together. :biggrin:
Look, I like Enigma Machine, but Anna Lee is a much better song, and I hope that DT brings it back to live performances, now that MP is no longer making the setlists.
Quote from: Öxölklöfför on May 24, 2014, 01:26:58 PM
Quote from: wasteland on May 18, 2014, 06:54:51 AM
There you go people! https://1drv.ms/S6Ptn4
Thanks a lot! But, I'm having trouble downloading it, it'll only download 257k. Probably because I'm on a Mac. Does anyone have an alernate download link that isn't hosted on Skydrive?
Doesn't work for me either.. So eager to have it xD
Alright, I 'll look into it when I get back from the concert!
It's SkyDrive. They handle downloads strangely and stop randomly with no hope of resume. In fact, I was shocked that our last exchange worked. Perhaps you could try DropBox or Google Drive? (I'd mirror it but I don't have a fully functional computer until Friday.)
BTW, Did my emails scare you off? :lol
Am I the only one who always reads the thread title as "Metropolis 1994"? :D
...
It doesn't say metropolis?
Fuck.
This is kind of controversial, but hey I think this show has some competition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiW2GYfSwqw
And that right there might not even be the best performance of this tour. I loved watching this beginning to end though, and every note was perfect. Only thing was he just went for a C in "salvation" in Illumination Theory instead of an F.
I hate how much compression consumer cameras apply.
Overcome by irrational fear ... overcome by irrational fear.
lol.
Quote from: TheAtliator on July 22, 2014, 03:26:15 PM
This is kind of controversial, but hey I think this show has some competition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiW2GYfSwqw
And that right there might not even be the best performance of this tour. I loved watching this beginning to end though, and every note was perfect. Only thing was he just went for a C in "salvation" in Illumination Theory instead of an F.
(bolded part) Wut?
I mean, not even close to the 1994 video.
That's not even JLB's best 2014 performance. Not even close.
Quote from: Ravenfoul on July 22, 2014, 04:37:12 PM
Overcome by irrational fear ... overcome by irrational fear.
lol.
OOOH that's what he said :lol I couldn't tell but I was hoping maybe he said "All alone in Russia, overcome with i-Russian-al fans".
Quote from: TheAtliator on July 22, 2014, 07:43:08 PM
Quote from: Ravenfoul on July 22, 2014, 04:37:12 PM
Overcome by irrational fear ... overcome by irrational fear.
lol.
OOOH that's what he said :lol I couldn't tell but I was hoping maybe he said "All alone in Russia, overcome with i-Russian-al fans".
Haha that'd be quite the line!
Almost as good as "I would not expert para pa papa pa."