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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: KevShmev on December 20, 2013, 09:10:28 PM
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It seems natural since they follow a somewhat similar format, and are literally about the same length.
For me, it is a tough call. I think TCOT gets the nod as far as having a better intro and ending, but I like the first several verses and choruses of Illumination Theory way better than those in The Count of Tuscany. And while I love the guitar swelling section of TCOT, I like the ambient and (especially) orchestral sections in IT a little more.
For now, I'll give Illumination Theory the very slight nod, while acknowledging that the newness of it is making me tilt that way....for now.
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I definitely prefer TCOT, by a pretty good margin.
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It's a bit of a tough one for me, as they both have a lot of exceptional sections, as well as sections that I think drag the songs down a bit.
For now I'll go with TCOT, as I think it has a few more of those exceptional sections, but they're close enough that it may change eventually.
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I'm going with TCOT.
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The Count of Tuscany is Bookended by some amazing parts. The beginning and the ending are just awesome. But everything from the first verse and all the way until (but not including) the atmospheric part, is pretty good, but all in all, nothing too special.
With Illumination Theory, not only do I feel like it doesn't have anything to drag it down, but it also feels a lot more progressive, having more musical themes, and a lot more variety to the verses. So Illumination Theory gets this one for me.
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TCOT - it's got a better intro and outro (oh GOD that outro is amazing), and for me it is more cohesive as a whole song. IT has some great parts and moments within it's various movements, but it is a bit of a patch-work piece in that it's really stop-and-go in some parts.
Both are amazing, though, in their own right, but TCOT just a bit more so.
-Marc.
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Illumination Theory is fantastic all the way up to the orchestra part, which while being a beautiful little piece of music in itself, kind of kills the momentum. Of course, its then followed by the best part on the whole album with JLB stealing the show. It's kind of downhill from there though, I really don't like the ending verses at all.
The Count of Tuscany has a wonderful start, but I'm sorry, the ridiculousness of the lyrics kinda drags it down for me once they come in :lol. I like the chorus though, but again I feel the ambient section also kills the momentum here. Everything after that though (when the acoustic guitar comes back in) is AWESOME. So the ending is much better than IT's.
It's kind of close, but Illumination Theory wins for me.
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I prefer The Count.
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It blows my mind that Count is winning the poll right now.
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The Count of Tuscany. Not even close.
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It blows my mind that Count is winning the poll right now.
It blows my mind that that blows your mind.
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I definitely prefer TCOT, by a pretty good margin.
This. The lyrics are what they are and the heavy parts aren't exactly amazing, but the intro, the ambient section and the ending are enough to make TCOT much stronger than IT in my eyes.
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TCOT.
I'm going to get blasted for this, but I personally do not really like IT much anymore.
The orchestral break is absolutely beautiful and amazing, but it does not fit in the song. It would fit MUCH better in song which tells of a journey or a story.
The vocal melodies in many parts of the song have not aged well to me, and I just find them to be boring now.
The intro still kicks ass, when the first power riff comes in. And the chorus in the first part of the song ("We seek to understand" part) is still awesome to me.
This brings up something pretty interesting:
I did not like TCOT at first, and it finally grew on me a couple months back. IT was completely opposite. I LOVED it at first, but now it doesn't do much for me.
BTW, it hurts me to bash IT like I just did :( I am not getting any pleasure out of this. It is just really unfortunate that I no longer like it very much.
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TCOT all the way. The songs do have similar structure, but while TCOT feels cohesive, IT feels disjointed for me. I like some parts here and there, but it doesn't feel right.
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TCOT by some considerable margin. It tells a much better "story" - lyrically and musically. IT has some amazing sections, but as a whole I still find it a rather unconvincing "epic".
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TCOT all the way. The songs do have similar structure, but while TCOT feels cohesive, IT feels disjointed for me. I like some parts here and there, but it doesn't feel right.
This!
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IT
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Illumination Theory. By far.
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Illumination Theory. By far.
This. For me, the music is much more epic in scale, scope, and ambition, and the lyrics aren't ridiculously stupid. Win win.
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TCOT is good and all, but not even close to IT. Surprised this is so close.
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They're very closely matched for me, but I've slotted IT a couple of spots ahead of TCOT in my rankings.
I'm still sort of in the 'honeymoon period' with IT though, so it might change. Both fantastic tracks though and both in my top 10 :tup
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I don't like IT at all. An epic for the sake of "epic".
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I like them both, but Illumination is probably the one I'll go with. Neither can compete with Octavarium, A Change of seasons or In the presence of enemies, though...
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TCOT, not even close.
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IT might be their best song.
TCOT is great as well, but for me this isn't close.
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IT by a lot. Count has a lot of good stuff but can't touch IT which has way better lyrics, a far better ambient section, a better outro, and a better lineup.
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Illumination Theory by so much it isn't even a thing.
I'm amused that the actual vote is very close but the comments make it sound like TCOT is universally considered their best song and IT is just a thing. :lol
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Really? The comments seem divided pretty evenly to me.
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IT is a great song,best of the album but it's not TCOT
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IT without a doubt.
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IT. The ending is one of the best thing's DT has done.
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IT features some of their greatest riffs ever and JLB's best performance in recent years ("Mothers for their children...").
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Really? The comments seem divided pretty evenly to me.
There we go, NOW they're starting to even out.
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Tuscany by a landslide.
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The Count of Tuscany. Not even close.
I agree with this. Illumination Theory feels like it's just a bunch of small sections thrown together, in a less than cohesive manner. I do like all of the parts, other than the instrumental orchestral section. It just doesn't catch me.
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TCOT, no contest. To me that song is DT's last successful epic.
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Listening to TCOT right now to get a more objective view (still in honeymoon stage with DT12 I guess) and it's a great song, flows great, but it just doesn't have the moments IT has. And that chorus "AAAAAYYYE I want to stay alive" is just I don't know, sounds cheesy to me, especially with that growl. The outro is great though.
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Listening to TCOT right now to get a more objective view (still in honeymoon stage with DT12 I guess) and it's a great song, flows great, but it just doesn't have the moments IT has. And that chorus "AAAAAYYYE I want to stay alive" is just I don't know, sounds cheesy to me, especially with that growl. The outro is great though.
The growls and MP's vocals in general really bring the overall song down for me. "My brotha!"
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Listening to TCOT right now to get a more objective view (still in honeymoon stage with DT12 I guess) and it's a great song, flows great, but it just doesn't have the moments IT has. And that chorus "AAAAAYYYE I want to stay alive" is just I don't know, sounds cheesy to me, especially with that growl. The outro is great though.
The growls and MP's vocals in general really bring the overall song down for me. "My brotha!"
Same with ANTR, his "day after day, and night after night" part is downright ridiculous and destroys what could otherwise be one of their best songs.
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"Day after day..." stirred up so much controversy and is so infamous, that alone makes it worthwhile. It will go down as one of the classic moments in DT history. I love it.
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Same with ANTR, his "day after day, and night after night" part is downright ridiculous and destroys what could otherwise be one of their best songs.
I don't mind that part too much, but I can understand that. Personally, the worst is when he's doing his growls or screaming or whatever, as "backup" vocals for JLB. It doesn't work at all, for me. Which really drags down AROP and TCOT.
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IT.
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"Day after day..." stirred up so much controversy and is so infamous, that alone makes it worthwhile. It will go down as one of the classic moments in DT history. I love it.
You know that "infamous" means famous in a bad way right? It's terrible, I can't believe that DT and the producer sat in that mixing room listening to that and nodding their heads telling each other how great that sounds. :facepalm:
I thought those growls would grow on me, it's been over 4 years and nope, it never did. It's just bad.
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Same with ANTR, his "day after day, and night after night" part is downright ridiculous and destroys what could otherwise be one of their best songs.
I don't mind that part too much, but I can understand that. Personally, the worst is when he's doing his growls or screaming or whatever, as "backup" vocals for JLB. It doesn't work at all, for me. Which really drags down AROP and TCOT.
I agree, except that AROP is just a bad song, growls or not. One of their worst in their library, right there with SDV and IWBY. :facepalm:
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I agree, except that AROP is just a bad song, growls or not. One of their worst in their library, right there with SDV and IWBY. :facepalm:
Well, IMO with Dream Theater, even the songs at the bottom of their library are still awesome. If nothing else, AROP has some great riffs.
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You know that "infamous" means famous in a bad way right?
You don't say. BTW, it doesn't necessarily mean what the dictionary says, hence Jordan using the phrasing "he's infamous in the drum world" when describing Virgil Donati. The same way how thanks to Michael Jackson "bad" meant "good" in the late '80s. Too bad Lucas and the Power Glove ruined that whole gimmick. :lol
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Couldn't care less about these two songs.
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You don't say. BTW, it doesn't necessarily mean what the dictionary says, hence Jordan using the phrasing "he's infamous in the drum world" when describing Virgil Donati. The same way how thanks to Michael Jackson "bad" meant "good" in the late '80s. Too bad Lucas and the Power Glove ruined that whole gimmick. :lol
But... It's so bad... :heart
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Now I've got "Bad" stuck in my head. Thanks guys. :lol
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Now I've got "Bad" stuck in my head. Thanks guys. :lol
Now I've got the "Fat" video stuck in my head - thanks Blob ;D
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Now I've got the "Fat" video stuck in my head - thanks Blob ;D
Now I've got the Eat It video stuck in my head! Dammit!
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IT by a mile...
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"Day after day..." stirred up so much controversy and is so infamous, that alone makes it worthwhile. It will go down as one of the classic moments in DT history. I love it.
You know that "infamous" means famous in a bad way right? It's terrible, I can't believe that DT and the producer sat in that mixing room listening to that and nodding their heads telling each other how great that sounds. :facepalm:
I thought those growls would grow on me, it's been over 4 years and nope, it never did. It's just bad.
Would it blow your mind if I pointed out that the growls were being made by the producer? :P Well... one of.
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IT, by about a billion miles.
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"Day after day..." stirred up so much controversy and is so infamous, that alone makes it worthwhile. It will go down as one of the classic moments in DT history. I love it.
You know that "infamous" means famous in a bad way right? It's terrible, I can't believe that DT and the producer sat in that mixing room listening to that and nodding their heads telling each other how great that sounds. :facepalm:
I thought those growls would grow on me, it's been over 4 years and nope, it never did. It's just bad.
Would it blow your mind if I pointed out that the growls were being made by the producer? :P Well... one of.
Which strengthens the point that DT are in a serious need of a producer. They need an outside voice telling them "nope that's terribly mastered" or "nope, that sounds just bad".
I know JP produced the last two albums and I'm too lazy to look up who produced before that. My guess MP and JP. Or MP and MP lol.
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MP and JP produced the albums together starting with SFAM through to BCSL.
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MP and JP produced the albums together starting with SFAM through to BCSL.
Well learned something new.
Wouldn't be absolutely tits if someone like Steven Wilson produced them?
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MP and JP produced the albums together starting with SFAM through to BCSL.
Well learned something new.
Wouldn't be absolutely tits if someone like Steven Wilson produced them?
Yuck. I don't even like SW producing SW let alone him coming near DT.
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SW isn't a fan of DT's music and doesn't have enough time for producing other bands anyway, so it's never gonna happen.
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I really enjoy sections of The Count, but IT comfortably for me. IT just has that special DT blend that works perfectly in my eyes, and is a monster epic..
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MP and JP produced the albums together starting with SFAM through to BCSL.
Well learned something new.
Wouldn't be absolutely tits if someone like Steven Wilson produced them?
Maybe Prater is insterested. :lol
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Illumination Theory, by a million miles. Sorry guys, but The Count of Tuscany is basically what I consider the slightly lesser evil in DT's worst album yet (more like "least good album yet", but still).
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TCOT - it's got a better intro and outro (oh GOD that outro is amazing), and for me it is more cohesive as a whole song. IT has some great parts and moments within it's various movements, but it is a bit of a patch-work piece in that it's really stop-and-go in some parts.
Both are amazing, though, in their own right, but TCOT just a bit more so.
-Marc.
It's the 2nd time I have to quote a post of yours, looks like we see things same way... :tup
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TCOT a looong way!! Like someone said, IT just feels like a bunch of different sections thrown together. I like the outro where Jordan plays the piano, but aside from that IT is nothing special for me.
TCOT was the last song with Portnoy, and it has a special place in my heart. I really donīt care about the lyrics, it's the MUSICAL part I care about.
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The Count of Tuscany. And much like many of the IT fans don't get the pro-TCOT comments, I don't get the anti-TCOT comments. It is just straight-up 19 minutes of good song, all killer, no filler. And MP's voice makes it more awesome, so :P
I can understand why a person would pick IT, and I think that it is still growing for me, so one day that could be my answer, but right now I definitely prefer The Count.
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IT by a long shot. The lyrics (almost) ruin CoT.
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I think both songs had great potential, and were squandered by some poor choices.
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MP and JP produced the albums together starting with SFAM through to BCSL.
Well learned something new.
Wouldn't be absolutely tits if someone like Steven Wilson produced them?
Maybe Prater is insterested. :lol
Lol we could expect a better sounding snare? :rollin
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Bah... Both sucks..
:biggrin:
hahahaha.. No, I'm kidding... I decided for TCoT but it could've been any of them..
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The Count of Tuscany. And much like many of the IT fans don't get the pro-TCOT comments, I don't get the anti-TCOT comments. It is just straight-up 19 minutes of good song, all killer, no filler.
It's nice until the "metal part" comes, then the song goes to hell :rollin
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Love both, but gotta go with TCOT. I just feel it's a more fluidic song, the symphonic section, though wonderful, in IT is somewhat of a buzzkill for me as far as the complete song goes. TCOT however, is probably one of my top 5 songs.
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I really enjoy sections of The Count, but IT comfortably for me. IT just has that special DT blend that works perfectly in my eyes, and is a monster epic..
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I want to say IT, even though TCOT is higher on my ranking list. But I haven't heard TCOT in a while, and I'm sure if I listened to it now, I'd say TCOT. But it's a tough call.
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I can't believe this is even a debate. Tuscany is infinitely better
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Illumination Theory
I physically can NOT vote against the riff at 3:40.
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I still can't believe people actually like the incohesive album-closer (far from epic) that IT is.
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I can't believe this is even a debate. Tuscany is infinitely better
Making statements. Should be the new olympic discipline.
Brazil, get ready. We've got loads of champions here at DTF :hat
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I can't believe this is even a debate. Tuscany is infinitely better
Making statements. Should be the new olympic discipline.
Brazil, get ready. We've got loads of champions here at DTF :hat
Sorry, I'll be a little more explicit....I don't like IT at all and I think TCOT is an infinitely better song.
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IT by a lot. Count has a lot of good stuff but can't touch IT which has way better lyrics, a far better ambient section, a better outro, and a better lineup.
Yes, nailed it.
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It's still too soon for me to get that much provocation from IT. It's a great song and one of the Top 3 songs on the new CD for me, but it needs to stand the test of time for me, especially when compared to a brilliant song like TCOT. The creative non-fiction style lyrics in TCOT aren't meant to be deep and insightful like those in IT. Comparing the lyrics in both songs is futile and it ultimately boils down to subjectivity. Saying one song has "better" lyrics than the other is kind of pointless because the word itself is purely abstract. In most cases, it does nothing for me in a comparative discussion.
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TCOT, its pretty close, but the better intro/ending on the Count makes it the winner for me.
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It's still too soon for me to get that much provocation from IT. It's a great song and one of the Top 3 songs on the new CD for me, but it needs to stand the test of time for me, especially when compared to a brilliant song like TCOT. The creative non-fiction style lyrics in TCOT aren't meant to be deep and insightful like those in IT. Comparing the lyrics in both songs is futile and it ultimately boils down to subjectivity. Saying one song has "better" lyrics than the other is kind of pointless because the word itself is purely abstract. In most cases, it does nothing for me in a comparative discussion.
Well, almost anything in music is subjective. When I say something like "this song has better lyrics", I mean "I like these lyrics better", since there's obviously no objective parameters to base this judgement on.
And on that note, I actually prefer the lyrics to The Count Of Tuscany to those of Illumination Theory. Come at me, bros.
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I still can't believe people actually like the incohesive album-closer (far from epic) that IT is.
The two of them fits in the incohesive album-closer (far from epic) description to me :xbones
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I still can't believe people actually like the incohesive album-closer (far from epic) that IT is.
The two of them fits in the incohesive album-closer (far from epic) description to me :xbones
How is TCOT incohesive?
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I think the transitions are a bit forced and some parts are there just to fill space but more cohesive than IT, though i think IT has better performances from the band but, honestly, i couldn't care less about these two songs, if i still was into DT music, i would think: Why listen to this when i can listen to ACOS or 8V?
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I love both songs, but I like IT better. There's many memorable moments, and every time that I listen to it, feels like the first time I've ever heard the song...and that just doesn't happen with TCOT.
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Still like IT more overall, but I will say this, I was listening to TCOT the other day and I thought about how other DT albums ended, and honestly, I think the end of TCOT is the best DT album closer since Learning to Live.
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TCOT by miles.
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Still like IT more overall, but I will say this, I was listening to TCOT the other day and I thought about how other DT albums ended, and honestly, I think the end of TCOT is the best DT album closer since Learning to Live.
Sums up my exact thoughts. Both phenomenal songs, but IT wins by a hair for me.
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Illumination Theory. By far.
This. For me, the music is much more epic in scale, scope, and ambition, and the lyrics aren't ridiculously stupid. Win win.
Word, mentlegen.
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It's still too soon for me to get that much provocation from IT. It's a great song and one of the Top 3 songs on the new CD for me, but it needs to stand the test of time for me, especially when compared to a brilliant song like TCOT. The creative non-fiction style lyrics in TCOT aren't meant to be deep and insightful like those in IT. Comparing the lyrics in both songs is futile and it ultimately boils down to subjectivity. Saying one song has "better" lyrics than the other is kind of pointless because the word itself is purely abstract. In most cases, it does nothing for me in a comparative discussion.
Well, almost anything in music is subjective. When I say something like "this song has better lyrics", I mean "I like these lyrics better", since there's obviously no objective parameters to base this judgement on.
And on that note, I actually prefer the lyrics to The Count Of Tuscany to those of Illumination Theory. Come at me, bros.
Some people don't know how to use their words properly, so it causes all sorts of confusion in an argument. They obviously don't understand the subjectivity/objectivity dissimilarities. Obviously, you do. ;)
And yes, I agree with your second paragraph.
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Few thoughts on TCOT:(beside the fact that its so good, i love the intro and ending parts).
before the silent part starts approx around the 9th minute the riff reminds me the begining of 6:00. then, there is part which reminds me a lot of of the guitar solo in "Lie". the silent section sounds to me like the middle part of The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner by Maiden... have i lost it?.. :lol
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Illumination Theory, though it's fairly close. I'm kind of surprised that people have been so definitive as to say "__ by far".
I absolutely LOVE the main riff in IT, and when it's reprised later in the song and later under the guitar solo, it's a prog-gasm moment.
TCOT certainly has some awesome moments, I really like the intro and the final verse, but as we all know, the lyrics are pretty silly, which hurts it.
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If "Illumination Theory" did NOT have that orchestral section strapped to it, I probably would have voted for it. But that section just totally kills the mood and flow of the song for me. I still don't understand why it's even there or how -in any way- it carries the song forward. To me, that section goes with the song the same way that mustard goes with vanilla ice cream.
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To me, that section goes with the song the same way that mustard goes with vanilla ice
wut
(https://i.imgur.com/t6Srmvo.png)
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Sounds legit, boss. :tup
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TCOT for me. Not even close. IT has its moments but there is nothing epic about it other than the length of the song. TCOT has a great flow from start to finish and a killer chorus and ending that IT lacks.
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TCOT for me. Not even close. IT has its moments but there is nothing epic about it other than the length of the song. TCOT has a great flow from start to finish and a killer chorus and ending that IT lacks.
This.
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TCOT for me. I'm a huge lyric guy, but TCOT is my guilty pleasure in the cheesy lyrics department. It's such a great song that I enjoy them throughout even though I usually don't. I love DT's self titled album, but IT is actually one of my least favorite songs on it, even though it's the epic. Album to album, I totally take DT over BCASL, but TCOT is way better to me than IT.
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They're both awesome, but It'll probably take a few years before I'm able to really decide which I like better. I'd say right now probably TCOT because it's been out longer and has had more time to resonate.
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IT, if only due to lack of growls and less cringe-worthy lyrics.
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The Count of Tuscany, because:
Better intro
Better ambient section
Better outro
Less filler/fluff
More cohesive
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IT because it's not a cringe-inducing cheese-fest like TCoT.
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IT, by about a billion miles.
After listening to BCSL and Dt12 a fair bit in the last week...........this.
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TCoT, with better lyrics, might just be DT's best song.
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This is like choosing between your kids. :( I give it to TCOT by a hair at this point, but I do wonder whether I'll feel differently after seeing IT live in a couple months.....
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Tuscany by a mile. There's only about 2 minutes of IT that's I actually like. The rest is pretty bad IMO.
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Well, if you removed the orchestra section from Illumination Theory it might come close, but otherwise The Count of Tuscany is a better, much more consistently good song.
The poll results are surprising given the comments in this thread.
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TCOT.
IT has its moments but is mostly a major disappointment for me. Most of the album is a diappointment. High points are TEI and TLG. The rest is just so-so.
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Voted in this ages ago, but don't think I commented.
Illumination Theory is a great song, but I don't think it brings anything special to the table to really put it above other great, epic-length DT songs. The Count Of Tuscany on the other hand is a really special Dream Theater song, and parts of it are, perhaps literally, the best music they've ever produced. A few lines leave something to be desired (although I have no problem with the lyrics as a whole), but that doesn't detract from it enough to take it down from being one of DT's very best songs. Illumination Theory is a great as well, and I don't have any problems with it (if we don't count the minute's silence and ending music as being part of the song) but on the other hand it doesn't have any parts that stand out in DT's catalog quite as much as The Count Of Tuscany's.
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TCOT and IT are just about as close to each other as the results of this poll are. They're both phenomenal songs and almost their two best epics, but I gave IT the edge. I love the main riff in the first verse of TCOT, but I don't love the way that verse flows. It's perfect in the second verse, but it's eh in the first verse. The vocal melody in both verses leave something to be desired as well. As far as the lyrics, the only problem I have with them is the second prechorus and the way JLB/MP sing them in both pre choruses. Other than that, the song's perfect.
In IT, The instrumental section in Live, Die, Kill after the vocals is the only weak part of the song. It's still good, but compared to the rest of the song, it's nothing spectacular. And Surrender, Trust, and Passion feels like it wants to be Razor's Edge really badly, but doesn't quite hit the impact RE has. The rest of the song is outstanding and comparable to TCOT. They're both fairly even to me, but IT comes out slightly higher.
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I first thought it was a joke... :yeahright
But, as I already said, I never liked BC&SL...
I wonder if there is a possibility to vote again, for IT of course...again, and again, and again. :metal
(apparently NOT... :loser:)
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As much as I love IT, the harmonic richness of TCOT wins out for me. Absolutely gorgeous all the way through!
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And the lyrics...
Awesome too!! :rollin
Not funny ?? :loser:
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As much as I love IT, the harmonic richness of TCOT wins out for me. Absolutely gorgeous all the way through!
Yes, MP's "I!!!" is very harmonic! :loser:
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Right, because a single word represents the whole song.
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I'm glad IT is winning. True story - I listened to TCOT last night all the way through foe the first time. I wasnt blown away or anything. But IT is just killer (IMO)
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And Surrender, Trust, and Passion feels like it wants to be Razor's Edge really badly, but doesn't quite hit the impact RE has.
Yup, I agree.
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You can do it TCOT! :metal :metal :metal
125 / 124
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Right, because a single word represents the whole song.
What's funny for me is that I actually really like MP's 'I!' during the TCOT chorus. A lot of people seem to bring it up as a negative, but for me, it's awesome.
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IT by far for me. Whole song feels better than TCOT. The lyrics, the riffs, the orchestral section(especially after seeing the video they played at the concerts), the great James moments, all the solos...
And I never managed to understand the love for TCOT. I keep listening to it everyday, thinking I can get something for it. Haven't managed to do it so far. Had the same problem with ADTOE, got rid of it by the help of you guys. Willing to help again? :D
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Right, because a single word represents the whole song.
What's funny for me is that I actually really like MP's 'I!' during the TCOT chorus. A lot of people seem to bring it up as a negative, but for me, it's awesome.
I like the "I"s, it's the prechorus (let me introduce) that I don't care for. Though that's the only part of the song that I don't care for.
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Right, because a single word represents the whole song.
What's funny for me is that I actually really like MP's 'I!' during the TCOT chorus. A lot of people seem to bring it up as a negative, but for me, it's awesome.
I like the "I"s, it's the prechorus (let me introduce) that I don't care for. Though that's the only part of the song that I don't care for.
Fair enough.
For me, I don't really have a problem with any of the vocals, it's just that they don't necessarily make sense with the lyrics. And that goes for several parts of BC&SL, not just TCOT.
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Now that I look at it, I'm perfectly pleased with how well the poll results reflect my own feelings for the two songs. :lol
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The Count of Tuscany was/is my favorite but now Illumination Theory is my favorite too. I listen to both now but i voted for IT because it's from my favorite album.
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Wow, this is a pretty close contest! I voted for TCOT. Both songs are excellent, but there is just something about TCOT...I don't know if it's the notes being hit or what, but it just sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it. IT is probably more interesting from a musical standpoint though, and it gets stuck in my head easier.
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I originally picked the count but as time has passed, IT has shown it may be better now. Its a tough call. If I could, id possibly change my vote.
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The Count is was a top 10 DT song for me, but Illumination Theory is really on a whole nother level. IMO it contains everything that makes DT amazing. Packed full of epic riffs, refined arrangement, amazing ambient section, killer solos, soaring vocals, cinematic outro. Hell, it even has silence which they pull off perfectly. :P :lol
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I like both but The Count of Tuscany by quite a few miles.
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TCOT for me. Especially live versions, the interlude is even more emotional live. It get's the hairs on your arm standing up and gets you a touch misty, then leads into that epic ending. The intro is amazing, and that main verse riff rips your face off. Not much negative to say about that song. IT has its moments, I might be in the minority by saying the orchestreal interlude bores me, and I usually FF to the "Necromancer" part.
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Hmm, The Count is actually winning now.
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I usually FF to the "Necromancer" part.
Frantically frolic?
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Hmm, The Count is actually winning now.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
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It's exactly 50/50 after my vote for IT (barely.) I gave IT the edge due to the lyrics and Jame's amazing vocal performance at the end. However, it was close. I love TCOT and almost feel just terrible for letting it down. :'(
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And thus balance was restored to the universe.
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Hmm, The Count is actually winning now.
Hmm, IT is actually winning now. :tup
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Aaaaand another vote for IT! They're both at the bottom half of DT epics, I like them but I am not that crazy about neither of them. It is a good poll as they both share some of the same strenghts and weakneses, I went for IT because of the lyrics, the aren't the greatest, but compared to TCOT they win easily. My problem with The Count is that while the lyrics on themselves are not that bad, they don't fit the music at all, except for some parts. The "MY BROTHAAAA" :metal moments and such are a let down for me. The Count may have a better ending.
None of them have smooth transitions by the way, although on that part TCOT may win by a hair. I do like de riffing and vocals on IT a little better for the riffs, A LOT better for the vocals.
So all in all, IT won by a hair. If the Count had other lyrics, it would have been a serious contender even for the better epics, which kind of a shame :sad:.
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Count is more please to ears for me, I can't wait to see Illumination live, but Count seems more original to me, and I always get a good visual in my head with the lyrics. Illumination starts with what seems to me a bunch of pieces that sound all too familiar, although the section that starts at 3:38 I love so much it almost swayed my decision but in the end I have to give it to the Count.
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Voted for IT simply because of the "mothers for their children part and the lyrics, but it's extremely close.
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I voted for TCOT, and it wasn't an agonizing decision to make.
I enjoy IT overall but it sounds a bit too much like a sum of parts, some of which I'm not too crazy about. TCOT, on the other hand, feels like a coherent whole that I just love from start to end.
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The Count of Tuscany by a very, very significant margin indeed! I absolutely love everything about that track... the instrumental intro, the ridiculous lyrics, the fact the whole thing evolved out of an innocent encounter and was overblown into this dramatic epic, the atmospheric guitar mid section, the acoustic/piano 'Could this be the end?' section, the guitar solo, and most of all that note at 17:35 in the solo... and the woahs, oh man the woahs. Truly wonderful, one of their best songs, one of my favourite epics, it's up there with ACOS and 8VM for me. Just around when it was released I was writing my undergrad thesis on progressive metal and used this track as an example, wrote a detailed track analysis and everything, it was bliss to sink hours and hours into it!
Illumination Theory on the other hand is good, but leaves me pretty cold overall. It just seems bloated, a bit copy and pasted, like none of the sections really relate that well to one another. Even the instrumental bit after the orchestral section sounds like it quits before it really goes anywhere. And the orchestral section is pretty nice but I can't get away from the fact that it's SO similar to Elgar's s'Alut d'Amour, it's the same notes and everything if I remember rightly, just in a slightly different order :P I will listen to it and I enjoyed it live but if TCOT is a 9 or 10/10, Illumination Theory so far is only around a 4/10. This may change as songs by DT do grow on me but as the much anticipated epic of the album, it leaves me cold. There is little desire to listen to it on repeat for days like I do with other DT tracks.
As YOWspotter said, TCOT feels like a coherent whole. It takes you on a journey and for me it's a very emotional track (not bad emotions, just those kinda awesome emotions you get when you love a piece of music so much it takes your breath away every time you hear it). IT for me is just... separate chunks strung together that don't really feed into one another all that clearly.
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Been listening to both, in recent times, and I'll vote on what I think which is better when there is a karaoke track of Illumination Theory. I already sang The Count of Tuscany, karaoke-style, and I was way off on the timing part.
As for the songs itself, they are both good with both super strong endings. Tough call to make.
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TCOT, no contest. To me that song is DT's last successful epic.
Funnily, I'm exactly the opposite - I'd say Illumination Theory is DT's first successful epic since Octavarium. ItPoE and TCoT are just (cool!) long songs; IT nails the sense of narrative that ACoS and Octavarium managed before it.
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It's interesting that you think that. To me, while I enjoy IT, it sounds much more disjointed that either ITPOE and TCOT.
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The Count of Tuscany by a very, very significant margin indeed! I absolutely love everything about that track... the instrumental intro, the ridiculous lyrics, the fact the whole thing evolved out of an innocent encounter and was overblown into this dramatic epic, the atmospheric guitar mid section, the acoustic/piano 'Could this be the end?' section, the guitar solo, and most of all that note at 17:35 in the solo... and the woahs, oh man the woahs. Truly wonderful, one of their best songs, one of my favourite epics, it's up there with ACOS and 8VM for me. Just around when it was released I was writing my undergrad thesis on progressive metal and used this track as an example, wrote a detailed track analysis and everything, it was bliss to sink hours and hours into it!
Illumination Theory on the other hand is good, but leaves me pretty cold overall. It just seems bloated, a bit copy and pasted, like none of the sections really relate that well to one another. Even the instrumental bit after the orchestral section sounds like it quits before it really goes anywhere. And the orchestral section is pretty nice but I can't get away from the fact that it's SO similar to Elgar's s'Alut d'Amour, it's the same notes and everything if I remember rightly, just in a slightly different order :P I will listen to it and I enjoyed it live but if TCOT is a 9 or 10/10, Illumination Theory so far is only around a 4/10. This may change as songs by DT do grow on me but as the much anticipated epic of the album, it leaves me cold. There is little desire to listen to it on repeat for days like I do with other DT tracks.
As YOWspotter said, TCOT feels like a coherent whole. It takes you on a journey and for me it's a very emotional track (not bad emotions, just those kinda awesome emotions you get when you love a piece of music so much it takes your breath away every time you hear it). IT for me is just... separate chunks strung together that don't really feed into one another all that clearly.
Can't really add anything to this, aside from this: The Count of Tuscany does not feel like a long song at all, even though it is. To me, that's one way of really telling how interesting a long song is. If it feels too long, it probably is.
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It's interesting that you think that. To me, while I enjoy IT, it sounds much more disjointed that either ITPOE and TCOT.
Oh, it is!
TCoT flows, but I feel it's a bit like a short song in the body of a long song. The verses and chorus in particular are straight out of something like The Enemy Inside, the ambient section's cool but it's nothing Octavarium didn't do better. I'm not saying it's not good, it's a cracking rock song, it deserves heaps of praise for the intro alone, but it's that intangible difference between a long song and an epic. Illumination Theory is a bit more disjointed - and so's ACoS, for that matter - but like ACoS, Illumination Theory has more ideas in than The Count of Tuscany, and I think they justify its length. It takes the same approximate structure as The Count of Tuscany and does something quite new and interesting with it, it does things that I can't imagine crammed into a shorter track.
ItPoE, again, I think it's a bunch of great short songs in the body of a long song. ItPoE-1, for instance, is an utterly amazing nine-minuter. It's top ten material. ItPoE-1 is hands down the best song on Systematic Chaos, I never listen to it with its sister, always alone, usually into Forsaken. Heretic would be a great single, too - I think another week in the studio could have carved a unique and creepy six minutes out of Heretic.
Illumination Theory, meanwhile, never dwells. It rarely sits still long enough for a phase to grow its own personality separate from the greater whole - and when it finally does pause for breath, the ambience and the beautiful orchestral bit are so vital to the drive and story of the song that it'd take a butcher to split them.
I'm not saying that necessarily transfers to enjoyment, by the way! I think of Six Degrees as more of a long song than an epic, and I prefer it to A Change of Seasons. I prefer In the Name of God to A Change of Seasons, too. And ItPoE part 1. I'm just riffing on rumby's idea that The Count of Tuscany was the band's last successful epic - I'm still not 100% sure what a "true epic" is (except that A Change of Seasons invented the term WRT Dream Theater songs and I think Octavarium probably codified it), but I've never considered The Count of Tuscany to be one. More at home with A Nightmare to Remember than with A Change of Seasons. TCoT achieves many things, but I don't think kinship with ACoS and Octavarium is one of them.
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Umm... am I the only one who finds the Pink Floyd section in TCOT as out of place in the song as the orchestral section in IT?
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Umm... am I the only one who finds the Pink Floyd section in TCOT as out of place in the song as the orchestral section in IT?
Not me. I actually like The Illumination Theory part better (the ambient section is nicer, and the way the Tchaikovsky thing plays on the main theme of the song later is a nice touch), but the transition to the Cygnus X-1 sounding drum/bass part is a lot more jarring than Tuscany's nice acoustic fade-in. So, TIT has the better ambient section, but it also sounds more out of place.
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Best abbreviation ever?
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Umm... am I the only one who finds the Pink Floyd section in TCOT as out of place in the song as the orchestral section in IT?
Pink Floyd section is way more out of place. Even when it's heavy, all piss and vinegar, Illumination Theory is innately symphonic, almost formless, so the orchestra doesn't jar. The ambient bit in TCoT is on the heels of verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo. The transition is golden, it segues into the ambience beautifully, but the section it follows has about the same anatomy as These Walls, so the laid back bit feels like its own story.
The transition to the Cygnus X-1 sounding drum/bass part is a lot more jarring than Tuscany's nice acoustic fade-in.
I knew it reminded me of something. Cygnus X-1! Thank you! Agreed, it is more abrupt.
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Same! The light bulb is now on in my head. Thank you.
ps - Nice to see you again, rob.
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Hmmmmm. I always associate that part with The Necromancer not Cygnus X-1...
Brooding in his tower
Watching o'er his lands
Holding every creature
Helplessly they stand
Oh, and the jarring change is what I like the most about it! :lol
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I would say IT but I think it's really disjointed as a whole. Can't really get into it much where TCOT does it well for that matter. But again lyrics of TCOT are kind of bad and funny which I don't like about it. So can't decide, both songs have their negative and positive side equally.
But maybe just because of the vocal performance of IT I can prefer it over TCOT.
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So, TIT has the better ambient section, but it also sounds more out of place.
It's just "Illumination Theory", no "the", which means you shouldn't have to use the word "tit" on this board ever again.
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So, TIT has the better ambient section, but it also sounds more out of place.
It's just "Illumination Theory", no "the", which means you shouldn't have to use the word "tit" on this board ever again.
Don't tell Cosmo that.
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It's interesting that you think that. To me, while I enjoy IT, it sounds much more disjointed that either ITPOE and TCOT.
People throw around this word "disjointed" with regard to IT all the time, and I'm not sure where it comes from. IMO it has exactly as much cohesion as any of the late-period DT epics, what with all the various melodic reprises, and the lyrical content which is pretty homogenous throughout.
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But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?" IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.
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But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?" IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.
Some are more disjointed than others though. Scarred moves between a lot of styles, but the emotional throughlines make it all hang together. The keyboard bonanza in Endless Sacrifice is the same genre as the rest of the song, but it feels too whimsical for a song about how relationship pain.
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I'm not saying there aren't degress of disjointedness. But just that an element of disjointedness in DT songs is a fairly common element in general. And that's okay.
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But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?" IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.
Well, sure. DT songs aren't incredibly cohesive in the general case -- which makes complaints about IT's "disjointedness" all the more confusing. I mean, ACOS might be one of the most disjointed pieces of music ever written -- it pretty much just blasts through a bunch of different soundscapes one by one, rarely backtracking or revisiting a musical idea. The instrumental break in Metropolis is pretty much the definition of "disjointed". And these are DT classics.
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I'm not saying there aren't degress of disjointedness. But just that an element of disjointedness in DT songs is a fairly common element in general. And that's okay.
I agree.
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But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?" IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.
I think it's a toss up. One of the best things about A Dramatic Turn of Events for me is how fluid all the part transitions are, despite all the songs on that album being relatively long and dynamic. There are a few other Dream Theater albums where I think the band accomplish something similar, but for me, on ADTOE in particular, it sounds like they spent a lot on making sure all the different parts and arrangements worked as cohesively as possible. Everything just seems to work perfectly on that one.
EDIT: Another thing about cohesion vs. disjointedness.
When you think about the song, does the whole strike you as greater than the various parts, or are the parts greater than the whole?
If we're talking more recent DT epics, when I think of Octavarium and The Count of Tuscany, I definitely feel like I just enjoy them as whole songs, and that despite some disjointedness, everything feels like it's part of the cohesive whole and belongs together. When I think about In the Presence of Enemies and Illumination Theory, I think of a lot of really cool parts, but they just don't seem as well-glued together.
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To me Illumination Theory works as a whole thing. There are even recurring themes to bind it together.
Set up themes
Life is painful
Life can be okay
The truth is painful
But if you embrace that pain, you will see the light
The music and lyrics both tell a story.
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I think there's a distinction to be made between abrupt and disjointed. Just cos a change is sudden doesn't mean it's bad - Frost* are a case in point, a Frost* song can flash from Jekyll to Hyde with barely a warning snarl, but those tracks are plotted tight as a drum. It's clearly the same narrative, they just don't waste time on a transition for the sake of a transition if that transition is going to slow the song down. It's a pace thing.
Back to DT - the Full Circle instrumental section, for instance, is erratic, with lots of sudden changes, but I think it's pretty well jointed. It's not some jumble sale of leftover melodies, it's not a hot pot, Full Circle's all direction and drive.
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To me Illumination Theory works as a whole thing. There are even recurring themes to bind it together.
Set up themes
Life is painful
Life can be okay
The truth is painful
But if you embrace that pain, you will see the light
The music and lyrics both tell a story.
Yeah, I get that. I actually think the songs works well, in "theory" (nugget), but I dunno. I've had trouble with it regardless.
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Back to DT - the Full Circle instrumental section, for instance, is erratic, with lots of sudden changes, but I think it's pretty well jointed. It's not some jumble sale of leftover melodies, it's not a hot pot, Full Circle's all direction and drive.
It knows what it's trying to do. The song is about the narrator character growing more and more insane. So you have to get from Full Circle (crazy, disjointed thoughts) to Intervals (the song's culminating moment, with trapped inside this Octavarium sorta being the ultimate horror). So the instrumental just needs to get more and more twisted and more and more weird and darker and darker and darker. Even the jingle bells section, while being a little comedic, is so fucking weird sounding that it keeps you in the right headspace.
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But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?" IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.
I agree. Isn't that a major part of progressive music in general? It doesn't follow the most common song form conventions. It's going to be disjointed a bit of the time. Of course you can disagree with that artistic choice personally, but it's not a bad choice by any means.
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You know you can name DT's songs as disjointed, especially their epics, maybe like ITPoE or ACOS, TKH and even TCOT. There are some sections can be named disjointed but when you see the bigger picture it gives you the feeling of a "one song" where, IMO, IT does not. I'm not saying it's completely a bad thing.
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To put one example under the lens, the transition between The Embracing Circle and The Pursuit of Truth in IT is, IMO, brilliant, and it's the prime example most will point to when it comes to "disjointedness" in DT.
Yes, it doesn't exactly transition smoothly from one point to the other, but obviously that's not what they were going for. The sudden drop in heaviness increases the drama and the juxtaposition here is fantastic. It comes and punches you with that bass riff and makes you alert. I feel a lot of "disjointedness" in DT is for this purpose.
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Gotta say, I blasted IT on the way home from work, and liked it a lot more than I remember (I probably haven't listened to it since DT12 came out).
Though, I've gotta put this out there, the way "Noble embrace/Lay down our lives for the cause/Death over shame/Grace before glory" goes nowhere and has the momentum pulled right out from under it really is a travesty.
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To me Illumination Theory works as a whole thing. There are even recurring themes to bind it together.
Set up themes
Life is painful
Life can be okay
The truth is painful
But if you embrace that pain, you will see the light
The music and lyrics both tell a story.
I commented on this in the Illumination Theory appreciation thread, so I will just transfer here a modified version of what I said since we are talking about disjointedness. IT is very cohesive for me because of the symmetry of the song.
Section 1: Paradox of the Black Light. Slow, majestic, a bit heavy so it is not yet "illuminated". This is an overture to the un-illuminated sections of the song.
Section 2: The heavy riffing section. At first this seems to be just a wanky instrumental but it actually acts as a bridge between Section 1 and Section 3. This serves an important narrative function once we get to the later sections. Note also that it is mostly a standard rocking beat, with some time signature changes only at the end upon approaching the Live, Die, Kill section.
Section 3: Live, Die Kill. The section poses the questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found". The section has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.
Section 4: Embracing Circle, ambient section. If Live, Die, Kill referred to a more down-to-earth plane of existence, to grounded reality, the Embracing Circle is situated in a transcendental plane. The ambient section is formless and lengthy, which signifies that the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence and it remains quite unanswered for a long time. The length of the section is important because it serves the narrative function of indicating that illumination or enlightenment does not come easily.
BREAK in the Narrative: Now we start to mirror the previous sections.
Section 5: Embracing Circle, orchestral section. This mirrors Section 4. We are still in the transcendental plane, but unlike Section 4, illumination starts to creep in slowly with the build up of the orchestral part. Illumination climaxes with a moment of enlightenment, signified by the orchestral version of the intro melody. It sort of mirrors Section 1 as well. The end of the orchestral section is an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.
Section 6. The Pursuit of Truth. This mirrors Section 3. The section starts with reverse swells, which signals a return from the transcendental plane to grounded reality. After the moment of enlightenment in The Embracing Circle, the song now has answers to the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill. What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth. The Pursuit of Truth answers the questions of Live, Die, Kill. Still mirroring Section 3, the section also has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.
Section 7: The heavy riffing section. This mirrors Section 2. It follows the same structure and uses the same riff! This serves as a bridge between Section 6 and Section 8. While Section 2 bridged the Paradox to the questions, Section 7 bridged the answers to the Paradox. Like Section 2, this section has a lot of wanky instrumentals and plays to a standard rocking beat, with a change in the tempo at the end approaching the Surrender, Trust and Passion section.
Section 8. Surrender, Trust and Passion. And now we have come full circle. This mirrors Section 1. Section 8 is also slow and majestic, but unlike Section 1, it is uplifting because illumination has already been achieved. Section 1 is titled the Paradox of the Black Light, and the lyrics in Section 8 spell out the paradox. And if I overanalyze the lyrics, even the lyrics here are symmetrical. LOL
Introduce with a paradox:
"To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain"
Surrender: Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing light.
"When you surrender to the light
You can face the darkest days"
Trust: Middle section, still in keeping the visuality of the Illumination Theory, we refer to opening one's eyes.
"If you open up your eyes
And you put your trust in love
On those cold and endless nights
You will never be alone"
Passion: Mirror the Surrender subsection. Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing bright.
"Passion glows within your heart
Like a furnace burning bright"
Mirror the intro. End with a paradox:
"Until you struggle through the dark
You'll never know that you're alive"
And as one more bit of analysis, which may be stretching a bit. Paradox of the Black Light started with a crescendo drum roll. Surrender, Trust and Passion ends with a decrescendo drum roll.
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This is how I viewed IT. Which is why I don't think I will really understand how it can be described as disjointed. It is very cohesive not just lyrically but structurally as well. The disjoint that some people feel, I think, is because the narrative of the song is really about transitioning from dark to light but ending up in a paradox where light is in the darkness. There is a deliberate disjointedness, from grounded to transcendent, from fast to slow parts. The transitions serve a narrative function.
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Well done., Haha. :tup
(https://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/orson_wells_Slow-Clap.gif)
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[Illumination Theory Theory]
I like a lot of what you wrote.
For some reason, I missed the Surrender Trust and Passion connection (first four lines about Surrender, next four about Trust, last four about Passion).
Your theory about the song mirroring itself in reverse is pretty compelling. I also like how, essentially, you present the first half of the song as posing a question, and the second half as presenting an answer. That's great stuff. I really like that interpretation.
Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that Paradoxe is actually important to the structure of the song. If you don't set up the rock riff under the guitar/keyboard solos, the listener just thinks "Oh, JR and JP need to solo now." By setting the riff up, you know when the solos kick in that the song's starting to tie everything together. You know the end is coming.
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Thanks. :p The AHA moment for me was when I finally made sense of the lyrics of The Pursuit of Truth. How do you make "mothers for their children" comparable to "a junkie for the high" and to "money, love and fame?" The word FOR was the clue, because it is what brought me to What are you willing to live FOR? What are you willing to die FOR? What are you willing to kill FOR? And then the lyrics finally made sense. Rebels are willing to live, die and kill FOR their freedom. Victims are willing to live, die and kill to seek vengeance FOR a crime. And the subjectless line seems to suggest that many people are willing to live, die and kill FOR money, love and fame. With that interpretation, all the lines became comparable.
When I realized the question and answer nature of the two sections, that's when I looked for a similar relation in the structures. The repeating riffs finally made sense but I was at first uncertain why one goes before the question and the other goes after the answer. So I looked at the lyrics of Surrender, Trust and Passion and realized that it is a paradox, which refers to the first section which is titled Paradox of the Black Light. The last section mirrored the first section! So I looked for mirroring patterns. And I found an interpretation that fits a mirror. :)
As to the un-illuminated side vs. the illuminated side interpretation, the question vs. answer relation was the clue. Then the heavy overture melody vs the orchestral melody.
The last was the more prominent cymbal and hi-hat work in the right speaker in Surrender, Trust and Passion vs. the more prominent cymbal and hi-hat work in the left speaker in the slow section of the Paradox of the Black Light. MM has brighter sounding cymbals on the right side of his kit while the darker sounding metals are on the left. This may already be a bit of stretch but hey, I found a musical reason for MM's use of cymbals. Hahaha.
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And just like that, Erwinrafael made me love IT that much more. Kudos to you, Sir.
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I understand the song as a guy that starts reflecting about life and questioning himself. The ambiental section feels like he's meditating and the strings reflect his/her feelings but in a calm way. I think that "Mothers for the children..." is more about injustices in life and his complaints about it. In the final section, he has learned a lot and gives his new vision about life and everything.
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I also like this interpretation. Focuses on the emotional journey more.
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I understand the song as a guy that starts reflecting about life and questioning himself. The ambiental section feels like he's meditating and the strings reflect his/her feelings but in a calm way. I think that "Mothers for the children..." is more about injustices in life and his complaints about it. In the final section, he has learned a lot and gives his new vision about life and everything.
I don't feel it's quite as tangible as that - it's not about a person, it's about something a lot bigger and more ethereal. The orchestra represents whatever effect it has on you, the listener.
This is how I viewed IT. Which is why I don't think I will really understand how it can be described as disjointed. It is very cohesive not just lyrically but structurally as well. The disjoint that some people feel, I think, is because the narrative of the song is really about transitioning from dark to light but ending up in a paradox where light is in the darkness. There is a deliberate disjointedness, from grounded to transcendent, from fast to slow parts. The transitions serve a narrative function.
I think it's just like the rest of the album, where they don't waste a note. They skip from melody to melody without wringing them out, but I think that's the correct decision, it increases the pace. They sound different, and sudden, but they don't sound disjointed. Each moment of music feels relevant to the last, each new idea drives the story forward, and the song never loses momentum - which is no mean feat in a track that takes five minutes out of its schedule to drop everything entirely and wallow in something lush and sumptuous.
It's a form of songwriting I prefer. I don't think people are wrong to say it's caffeinated, and without focus, but I do disagree with them. Illumination Theory takes plenty of time to dwell on the sounds that benefit from the sustained mood, it's just canny enough to know the difference between the slow burners and the brilliant flashes. They're pushing themselves as writers, and making something that's absolutely trim. My big worry, when I saw this long song with six subsections in the tracklisting, was that the band are in the habit of writing long songs because long songs are what they do, and Illumination Theory was the token epic, like The Count of Tuscany and In the Presence of Enemies before it. It's not - Illumination Theory is exactly as long as it needs to be and not a second longer. I think it's Dream Theater at their best. Heck, I think the whole album's Dream Theater at their best.
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When you find that some work is so dense and meaningful that can be interpreted in many profound and fascinating ways, you know it's a work of art!
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I've got to say, I'm crestfallen that the song isn't named "The Illumination Theory", like I somehow had got to thinking. TIT was my favorite acronym for a DT song ever.
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Wow. That analysis. Just. Wow.
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I've got to say, I'm crestfallen that the song isn't named "The Illumination Theory", like I somehow had got to thinking. TIT was my favorite acronym for a DT song ever.
I'm still crestfallen we never got CAGZ. Terrorist bastards.
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Wow. That analysis. Just. Wow.
ANALYSIS!
But seriously, very well done analysis. It could very well improve the song in my esteem, though it's hard to go higher than #13.
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I've got to say, I'm crestfallen that the song isn't named "The Illumination Theory", like I somehow had got to thinking. TIT was my favorite acronym for a DT song ever.
I'm still crestfallen we never got CAGZ. Terrorist bastards.
I'm missing something.
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The Great Debate was to be called Conflict at Ground Zero, but it was changed, for much the same reason Live Scenes' cover was. Absolutely the right choice, I'm being glib, but there's an alternate universe where the world is at peace, everyone loves each other and The Great Debate is called CAGZ, and it sounds like a bloody wonderful place to be.
It's just a nice sound. I like saying it. Cagz. I'm going to call a band that.
Seriously, disregard this post. I feel like this is the kind of bollocks that usually gets scribbled on padded walls. In faeces. ROBWEBSTER'S BACK!
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I've got to say, I'm crestfallen that the song isn't named "The Illumination Theory", like I somehow had got to thinking. TIT was my favorite acronym for a DT song ever.
That is so cool that I am simply going to ignore reality and start calling it that, and using that acronym. THANKS!!! :hat
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The Great Debate was to be called Conflict at Ground Zero, but it was changed, for much the same reason Live Scenes' cover was. Absolutely the right choice, I'm being glib, but there's an alternate universe where the world is at peace, everyone loves each other and The Great Debate is called CAGZ, and it sounds like a bloody wonderful place to be.
It's just a nice sound. I like saying it. Cagz. I'm going to call a band that.
Seriously, disregard this post. I feel like this is the kind of bollocks that usually gets scribbled on padded walls. In faeces. ROBWEBSTER'S BACK!
I forgot about this. CAGZ would have been a fun acronym.
It's not bollocks sir.
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And just like that, Erwinrafael made me love IT that much more. Kudos to you, Sir.
I actually resisted for quite some time the temptation to post that because I would love IT to win this poll without having to be explained. But the complaints about disjointedness and lack of cohesion just got tiring, and the poll became too close for comfort. :lol
I have been trying to come up with a similar in-depth analysis of TCoT but I still can not come up with a similarly logical explanation.
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Great analysis! I actually caught the lyrics meaning at second listen(my first one with the lyrics in front of me), but it took a lot more time(well, 5 or 6 listens) to put all the music together, as it usually happens with DT, and I never quite caught the mirror references completely. So :hefdaddy for your analysis.
Anyway, I actually went back to read what I said about the cohesiveness of the piece and I stand my ground: it's not disjointed, but the transitions aren't as smooth as, say, Octavarium. I guess that's why people are saying it's disjointed, not because of the music itself, but the fact that it keep growing and growing and growing and when you expect to keep that way BAM!, it goes into the Embracing Circle in full stop sort of way, like it suddenly dies. I understand why they did it, and it's brilliant, if they didn't kill the momentum the reentrance of the band wouldn't have been nearly as great. But, while when you listen to the entire piece and you see it's not disjointed, these sudden changes makes it feel disjointed. I actually love how between The Pursuit Of Truth and the last section the band goes sort of crazy and out of the madness JP emerges with one of his best solos, like "illuminated" sort of way(I know THIS is overanalysing, but it feels that way to me), it's a :hefdaddy moment.
As for the lyrics, the only thing I don't think is that this is a paradox:
"To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain"
I don't see it much as a paradox but more of a correlation between pain and joy, at least in my experience and without going into a deep discussion, pain and pleasure are connected, and without one you can't have the other, it's the relief of pain that causes most pleasure, it may sound like a paradox but it's not. If you don't suffer from not having or not achieving something, for example, the amount of pleasure you feel when you accomplish that is nowhere near as if you didn't suffer for it, and you don't even appreciate it or value something if it costed nothing, so no pain = no joy. I'm not saying anything new that everyone didn't know already, I'm just pointing out what I think it's the meaning of that lyrics(and section and maybe the whole song).
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I think it is still a paradox in a sense that gives a counter-intuitive argument. A lot of people actually avoid pain in their pursuit of happiness. So it may be true, and I actually believe that the statement is true based on my experience, but it is still paradoxical in the sense that there is an initial sense of contradiction. :)
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I think it is still a paradox in a sense that gives a counter-intuitive argument. A lot of people actually avoid pain in their pursuit of happiness. So it may be true, and I actually believe that the statement is true based on my experience, but it is still paradoxical in the sense that there is an initial sense of contradiction. :)
This. And it totally is a paradox, since joy is the contrary of suffering. I get what you mean, Invisible, but paradox is a figure of speech, and as such it is totally objective. So, our own feelings and experiences can lead us to consider things from a personal point of view, but still cannot change the objective meaning of words. Light and darkness, joy and suffering, good and evil, they all depend on one another, and could not exist without their contrary, but they still remain opposite concepts.
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To me Illumination Theory works as a whole thing. There are even recurring themes to bind it together.
Set up themes
Life is painful
Life can be okay
The truth is painful
But if you embrace that pain, you will see the light
The music and lyrics both tell a story.
I commented on this in the Illumination Theory appreciation thread, so I will just transfer here a modified version of what I said since we are talking about disjointedness. IT is very cohesive for me because of the symmetry of the song.
Section 1: Paradox of the Black Light. Slow, majestic, a bit heavy so it is not yet "illuminated". This is an overture to the un-illuminated sections of the song.
Section 2: The heavy riffing section. At first this seems to be just a wanky instrumental but it actually acts as a bridge between Section 1 and Section 3. This serves an important narrative function once we get to the later sections. Note also that it is mostly a standard rocking beat, with some time signature changes only at the end upon approaching the Live, Die, Kill section.
Section 3: Live, Die Kill. The section poses the questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found". The section has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.
Section 4: Embracing Circle, ambient section. If Live, Die, Kill referred to a more down-to-earth plane of existence, to grounded reality, the Embracing Circle is situated in a transcendental plane. The ambient section is formless and lengthy, which signifies that the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence and it remains quite unanswered for a long time. The length of the section is important because it serves the narrative function of indicating that illumination or enlightenment does not come easily.
BREAK in the Narrative: Now we start to mirror the previous sections.
Section 5: Embracing Circle, orchestral section. This mirrors Section 4. We are still in the transcendental plane, but unlike Section 4, illumination starts to creep in slowly with the build up of the orchestral part. Illumination climaxes with a moment of enlightenment, signified by the orchestral version of the intro melody. It sort of mirrors Section 1 as well. The end of the orchestral section is an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.
Section 6. The Pursuit of Truth. This mirrors Section 3. The section starts with reverse swells, which signals a return from the transcendental plane to grounded reality. After the moment of enlightenment in The Embracing Circle, the song now has answers to the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill. What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth. The Pursuit of Truth answers the questions of Live, Die, Kill. Still mirroring Section 3, the section also has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.
Section 7: The heavy riffing section. This mirrors Section 2. It follows the same structure and uses the same riff! This serves as a bridge between Section 6 and Section 8. While Section 2 bridged the Paradox to the questions, Section 7 bridged the answers to the Paradox. Like Section 2, this section has a lot of wanky instrumentals and plays to a standard rocking beat, with a change in the tempo at the end approaching the Surrender, Trust and Passion section.
Section 8. Surrender, Trust and Passion. And now we have come full circle. This mirrors Section 1. Section 8 is also slow and majestic, but unlike Section 1, it is uplifting because illumination has already been achieved. Section 1 is titled the Paradox of the Black Light, and the lyrics in Section 8 spell out the paradox. And if I overanalyze the lyrics, even the lyrics here are symmetrical. LOL
Introduce with a paradox:
"To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain"
Surrender: Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing light.
"When you surrender to the light
You can face the darkest days"
Trust: Middle section, still in keeping the visuality of the Illumination Theory, we refer to opening one's eyes.
"If you open up your eyes
And you put your trust in love
On those cold and endless nights
You will never be alone"
Passion: Mirror the Surrender subsection. Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing bright.
"Passion glows within your heart
Like a furnace burning bright"
Mirror the intro. End with a paradox:
"Until you struggle through the dark
You'll never know that you're alive"
And as one more bit of analysis, which may be stretching a bit. Paradox of the Black Light started with a crescendo drum roll. Surrender, Trust and Passion ends with a decrescendo drum roll.
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This is how I viewed IT. Which is why I don't think I will really understand how it can be described as disjointed. It is very cohesive not just lyrically but structurally as well. The disjoint that some people feel, I think, is because the narrative of the song is really about transitioning from dark to light but ending up in a paradox where light is in the darkness. There is a deliberate disjointedness, from grounded to transcendent, from fast to slow parts. The transitions serve a narrative function.
Besides the main riff commonality in section 7 and 2 there is also another riff similarity we can observe: The underlying riff when JP is about to end his wah wah guitar solo (15:02) is essentially the same as the riff (but with a different scale and rhythm) of section 2, in 3:09 :)
Also both ascending melodies in Section 6 (12:12) and Section 3 (6:19) sound very similar to each other!
We can even go as far as saying that the instrumental in Section 3 which is very well-structured (classical-sounding), is in contrast with the instrumental section in Section 6, which is all over the place, haha. AND that goes the other way around with the instrumentals in Section 2 (which is an odd collection of riffs, with whimsical keys) and Section 7 (which sounds organized because of the key and guitar solos)
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To me Illumination Theory works as a whole thing. There are even recurring themes to bind it together.
Set up themes
Life is painful
Life can be okay
The truth is painful
But if you embrace that pain, you will see the light
The music and lyrics both tell a story.
I commented on this in the Illumination Theory appreciation thread, so I will just transfer here a modified version of what I said since we are talking about disjointedness. IT is very cohesive for me because of the symmetry of the song.
Section 1: Paradox of the Black Light. Slow, majestic, a bit heavy so it is not yet "illuminated". This is an overture to the un-illuminated sections of the song.
Section 2: The heavy riffing section. At first this seems to be just a wanky instrumental but it actually acts as a bridge between Section 1 and Section 3. This serves an important narrative function once we get to the later sections. Note also that it is mostly a standard rocking beat, with some time signature changes only at the end upon approaching the Live, Die, Kill section.
Section 3: Live, Die Kill. The section poses the questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found". The section has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.
Section 4: Embracing Circle, ambient section. If Live, Die, Kill referred to a more down-to-earth plane of existence, to grounded reality, the Embracing Circle is situated in a transcendental plane. The ambient section is formless and lengthy, which signifies that the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence and it remains quite unanswered for a long time. The length of the section is important because it serves the narrative function of indicating that illumination or enlightenment does not come easily.
BREAK in the Narrative: Now we start to mirror the previous sections.
Section 5: Embracing Circle, orchestral section. This mirrors Section 4. We are still in the transcendental plane, but unlike Section 4, illumination starts to creep in slowly with the build up of the orchestral part. Illumination climaxes with a moment of enlightenment, signified by the orchestral version of the intro melody. It sort of mirrors Section 1 as well. The end of the orchestral section is an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.
Section 6. The Pursuit of Truth. This mirrors Section 3. The section starts with reverse swells, which signals a return from the transcendental plane to grounded reality. After the moment of enlightenment in The Embracing Circle, the song now has answers to the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill. What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth. The Pursuit of Truth answers the questions of Live, Die, Kill. Still mirroring Section 3, the section also has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.
Section 7: The heavy riffing section. This mirrors Section 2. It follows the same structure and uses the same riff! This serves as a bridge between Section 6 and Section 8. While Section 2 bridged the Paradox to the questions, Section 7 bridged the answers to the Paradox. Like Section 2, this section has a lot of wanky instrumentals and plays to a standard rocking beat, with a change in the tempo at the end approaching the Surrender, Trust and Passion section.
Section 8. Surrender, Trust and Passion. And now we have come full circle. This mirrors Section 1. Section 8 is also slow and majestic, but unlike Section 1, it is uplifting because illumination has already been achieved. Section 1 is titled the Paradox of the Black Light, and the lyrics in Section 8 spell out the paradox. And if I overanalyze the lyrics, even the lyrics here are symmetrical. LOL
Introduce with a paradox:
"To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain"
Surrender: Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing light.
"When you surrender to the light
You can face the darkest days"
Trust: Middle section, still in keeping the visuality of the Illumination Theory, we refer to opening one's eyes.
"If you open up your eyes
And you put your trust in love
On those cold and endless nights
You will never be alone"
Passion: Mirror the Surrender subsection. Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing bright.
"Passion glows within your heart
Like a furnace burning bright"
Mirror the intro. End with a paradox:
"Until you struggle through the dark
You'll never know that you're alive"
And as one more bit of analysis, which may be stretching a bit. Paradox of the Black Light started with a crescendo drum roll. Surrender, Trust and Passion ends with a decrescendo drum roll.
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This is how I viewed IT. Which is why I don't think I will really understand how it can be described as disjointed. It is very cohesive not just lyrically but structurally as well. The disjoint that some people feel, I think, is because the narrative of the song is really about transitioning from dark to light but ending up in a paradox where light is in the darkness. There is a deliberate disjointedness, from grounded to transcendent, from fast to slow parts. The transitions serve a narrative function.
This is fantastic. It's the kind of analysis I really appreciate, but rarely have the time to do myself anymore. I got most of this subliminally, anyway, but just a fantastic, fantastic analysis. I agree, the song is actually quite cohesive given this approach.