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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Tick on September 26, 2013, 06:42:41 AM
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I was thinking about the current lineup of DT while watching Luna Park in the theater the other night. While watching I thought about how good Mike Mangini is. It was hard for me to see MP leave the band as a fan, but I was open minded to the future. The future is obviously pretty fine at this point.
My thought is this. As much as MP was such a intricate part of the band he was replaceable. While watching JP play during that movie I thought, had he left I don't know if they could have rebounded with a new guitar player. I couldn't see Dream Theater without JP on guitar.
I deem him to be the only irreplaceable member of a very talented band.
Thoughts?
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It depends really. I'd agree with you but having read lifting shadows it was clear that whern MP nearly left during the FII tour, they would not have continued without him at that point.
I do see JP as irreplacable. I gotta say though - who really could replace JR, JM or JLB? Heck, they'd have a helluva task replacing MM at this point.
I feel - and I mean no disrespect by this as I love this band - that if any other band members were to leave at this point then DT would be quickly becoming a farce with "revolving door" policy. Their hand was forced by MP and I think they made the right decision.
Purely on an objective front with politics aside, I genuinely feel that JP is indeed the stand out irreplacable element of DT. But that said, I think they're all pretty hard to replace now. I don't see anyone filling JLBs shoes these days.
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As the primary songwriter, JP leaving would definitely be difficult to overcome. I'm not sure the band could. I'm not sure they would ever try.
Anyone else in the band is replaceable IMO. JLB is the most difficult to imagine leaving, and probably the most difficult to replace after JP. It'd be difficult to see Myung go, but the impact wouldn't be as huge. I like Mangini, but he could really come or go since he's so new, and it wouldn't shake things up much. Rudess leaving would be a lot like MP leaving - most people would be sad, but a lot of people would be excited to hear what a new keyboardist could bring to the table, esp since JR has always gotten some criticism.
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I would have a hard time imagining a DT without JP and JR (they are the key guys), but the only truly irreplaceable member is JLB, as his voice is the only unique, non-replicable element of DT's sound and identity.
If they absolutely had to replace someone, I'd ditch JM sooner than MM.
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They'd probably be able to find some clone guy out there who can play all of Petrucci's solos not for note. There are plenty of guitar slingers out there who can play this stuff.
But writing it is something that only John Petrucci could do. What I mean is, the majority of Dream Theater's actual output consists of riffs/chord progressions/melodies that came from the mind of Petrucci. His stamp is all over this stuff. You can hear it in the Liquid Tension Experiment material as well as Petrucci's solo album.
Without him, the band could probably move on with a talented replacement. They'd be able to play all of their old material and they'd sound largely the same, but any NEW material they wrote would probably sound quite a bit different, because a totally new person would be bringing those riffs/chord progressions/melodies to the table.
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I would have a hard time imagining a DT without JP and JR (they are the key guys), but the only truly irreplaceable member is JLB, as his voice is the only unique, non-replicable element of DT's sound and identity.
If they absolutely had to replace someone, I'd ditch JM sooner than MM.
JR mainly :P
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Well played, dude :lol :tup
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Love them puns. :lol
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JP (for the writing / direction / overall sound) and JLB (for the "surface" of the sound - the singer's voice is the most obvious thing that can completely change how a band sounds, even playing the same songs).
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As the primary songwriter, JP leaving would definitely be difficult to overcome. I'm not sure the band could. I'm not sure they would ever try.
Anyone else in the band is replaceable IMO. JLB is the most difficult to imagine leaving, and probably the most difficult to replace after JP. It'd be difficult to see Myung go, but the impact wouldn't be as huge. I like Mangini, but he could really come or go since he's so new, and it wouldn't shake things up much. Rudess leaving would be a lot like MP leaving - most people would be sad, but a lot of people would be excited to hear what a new keyboardist could bring to the table, esp since JR has always gotten some criticism.
This. :tup
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I think JP, JLB and JR are irreplaceable. JP, for being the main songwriter as mentioned, and thus a key part of their sound. JR because nobody else can do everything he does without seriously compromising the keys, and because he's been such a huge asset to the band's sound, and JLB because he's so identifiable as the voice of the band.
JM and MM are awesome, but I don't think they're quite as irreplaceable a component of the band's sound, especially with MM being new.
But ideally, I don't want any of them replaced!
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They'd probably be able to find some clone guy out there who can play all of Petrucci's solos not for note. There are plenty of guitar slingers out there who can play this stuff.
But writing it is something that only John Petrucci could do. What I mean is, the majority of Dream Theater's actual output consists of riffs/chord progressions/melodies that came from the mind of Petrucci. His stamp is all over this stuff. You can hear it in the Liquid Tension Experiment material as well as Petrucci's solo album.
Without him, the band could probably move on with a talented replacement. They'd be able to play all of their old material and they'd sound largely the same, but any NEW material they wrote would probably sound quite a bit different, because a totally new person would be bringing those riffs/chord progressions/melodies to the table.
Pretty much this. I'd add though that if JP were to depart DT would disband.....not even attempt to continue. He's just too vital.
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If anyone is irreplaceable it's JP. This is a guitar driven band in which he writes all the guitar parts. He's a guitar legend, and it's hard not to think of him first when you think of DT. He's been there from the beginning writing guitar parts and solos that have become pieces by themselves. You could put another great guitarist in the band, but you'd probably have to change the name. He's been the engine in DT's music from the beginning. I don't see how you replace that and keep the same name.
Then again, history has shown that a band can go on when it loses its most recognizable figure.
The day that JP decides not to do this anymore, I think DT will be put to rest. It's his band.
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The 4 musicians in DT now are so exceptional at what they do - and in the case of Jordan and Mike - world class - it would be very difficult to get someone else who can not only emulate what they do but compose in their style too.
Where else are they going to find a drummer who plays completely ambidextrous and has total limb independence and can think in time signatures as quickly as MM can ?
If I was forced to give an answer - i'd say that it would probably be easiest to find a new bassist. There are some incredible bass players out there.
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John Petrucci, easy.
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To me if either JP or JLB left it would be the end. I would probably still follow what remained but it would never come close, in my mind, to being a legitimate DT. JR's departure would certainly change things significantly as I believe musically he probably adds more than most realize into crafting the overall sound and feel the band produces.
And I really hope if that day ever comes we don't have to watch a watered down version playing the old hits to 500 people in some small venue. I would prefer they all move on to side/new projects where we could at least get to check out new music from the former members of the lineup as it is now.
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It depends really. I'd agree with you but having read lifting shadows it was clear that whern MP nearly left during the FII tour, they would not have continued without him at that point.
I do see JP as irreplacable. I gotta say though - who really could replace JR, JM or JLB? Heck, they'd have a helluva task replacing MM at this point.
I feel - and I mean no disrespect by this as I love this band - that if any other band members were to leave at this point then DT would be quickly becoming a farce with "revolving door" policy. Their hand was forced by MP and I think they made the right decision.
Purely on an objective front with politics aside, I genuinely feel that JP is indeed the stand out irreplacable element of DT. But that said, I think they're all pretty hard to replace now. I don't see anyone filling JLBs shoes these days.
I say this in the context that Portnoy was still in the band and JP was the one who left. So its not a revolving door senario.
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I love JR, but he's the only person who I'd also feel somewhat excited about leaving.
Not because I want him to leave or anything, but because aside from JP and JLB who are irreplaceable, JR's the only guy left whose leaving would significantly alter the sound of the band. And that would at least make me curious.
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I think if JP left Dream Theater, his new band would become Dream Theater...
And JR, JM, JLB and MM would join it.
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If you take JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
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I'll just pile on here ;) and agree that JP is by far the most irreplaceable member of the band, with JLB being a distant 2nd, and then there being a huge gap between JLB and the next (probably Rudess).
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Yeah, JP is definitely the biggest creative force in the band. There is no Dream Theater without him.
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If JP leaves, the band is done. 100%
JM is probably the easiest to replace, but JLB should probably be the first they replace.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
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The point I was really trying to convey was if Dream Theater had the complete lineup in tact as it was when MP left, I don’t think the band could have moved on from JP leaving. I wasn’t sure what effect MP leaving would have. They made a nearly seamless transition to MM. I think they would have survived any one member leaving at that time and been ok with the exception of JP. I even think they could have replaced JL and could have continued forward with success. JP is the one guy who I believed would have spelled the end for the band long term.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
Meeeh
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
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"Is Anyone Irreplaceable?"
Kevin Moore.
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"Is Anyone Irreplaceable?"
Kevin Moore.
:hefdaddy
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
More like replacing a new Ferrari with a new Ferrari with a broken navigation system.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
Agreed, although going back to MP would indeed seem like a downgrade and what's the point of getting a new member if he can't offer more?
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"Is Anyone Irreplaceable?"
Kevin Moore.
Well, obviously there is no truth in that thought.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
True dat. Mike Portnoy would have no problem playing the last 2 albums. C'mon, the guy is world class.
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"Is Anyone Irreplaceable?"
Kevin Moore.
Well, obviously there is no truth in that thought.
It depends what you mean by replaceable. In the context of your thread, you're right. Derek and then Jordan took his place in the band, and I thought both worked out really well. Stylistically, however, neither of his "replacements" really have the same creative style as he did. Kevin brought something different to the table, along with Derek and Jordan.
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"Is Anyone Irreplaceable?"
Kevin Moore.
Well, obviously there is no truth in that thought.
It depends what you mean by replaceable. In the context of your thread, you're right. Derek and then Jordan took his place in the band, and I thought both worked out really well. Stylistically, however, neither of his "replacements" really have the same creative style as he did. Kevin brought something different to the table, along with Derek and Jordan.
This. That's why we all workship I&W and Awake.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
Come on we know you love MP, but the last 2 albums?
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
Come on we know you love MP, but the last 2 albums?
What do you mean "we know you love MP"? Just because I'm not dumping shit on MP and agreeing that his abilities are a bicycle compared to a Ferrari?! :\
I like MP, and I also like MM. :tup I'm very supportive of MM being in the band, and I don't want him to leave DT. I'm not choosing one over the other, and I don't have to. MP was DT's drummer until 2010, and MM is DT's drummer from 2010 onwards.
But the drumming on the last two albums is largely not beyond what MP did with the band. Yes, there are definitely moments that MP couldn't play, or not play as effortlessly, especially on DT12, but overall it's not the night and day comparison some people make it out to be.
MM is an absolute monster at the drumkit, and a lot more capable than MP as a drummer, but MM's not playing at 100% of his capacity constantly. He's playing what the song calls for, which is often much more understated. If MM was playing at 100% for the entire album, then MP wouldn't have a hope, but that's not the case.
But this is a useless hypothetical anyway, because MM's not going anywhere, and if he did, there's currently no reason to assume MP would be his replacement.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
Come on we know you love MP, but the last 2 albums?
Show me one part from ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play. I wish it wasn't the case, but MM hasn't really done anything to impress me and MP is most certainly capabale of playing his parts.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
Come on we know you love MP, but the last 2 albums?
Show me one part from ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play. I wish it wasn't the case, but MM hasn't really done anything to impress me and MP is most certainly capabale of playing his parts.
Well to bad you haven't lisent anything that he has donde yet, but is pretty simple, ALL of us are completely sure that MM is 100% capable to play MP legacy, but not even 75% of us are sure if MP can play what MM is doing.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
Come on we know you love MP, but the last 2 albums?
What do you mean "we know you love MP"? Just because I'm not dumping shit on MP and agreeing that his abilities are a bicycle compared to a Ferrari?! :\
I like MP, and I also like MM. :tup I'm very supportive of MM being in the band, and I don't want him to leave DT. I'm not choosing one over the other, and I don't have to. MP was DT's drummer until 2010, and MM is DT's drummer from 2010 onwards.
But the drumming on the last two albums is largely not beyond what MP did with the band. Yes, there are definitely moments that MP couldn't play, or not play as effortlessly, especially on DT12, but overall it's not the night and day comparison some people make it out to be.
MM is an absolute monster at the drumkit, and a lot more capable than MP as a drummer, but MM's not playing at 100% of his capacity constantly. He's playing what the song calls for, which is often much more understated. If MM was playing at 100% for the entire album, then MP wouldn't have a hope, but that's not the case.
But this is a useless hypothetical anyway, because MM's not going anywhere, and if he did, there's currently no reason to assume MP would be his replacement.
Your last sentence describes it perfectly.
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"Is Anyone Irreplaceable?"
Kevin Moore.
Well, obviously there is no truth in that thought.
It depends what you mean by replaceable. In the context of your thread, you're right. Derek and then Jordan took his place in the band, and I thought both worked out really well. Stylistically, however, neither of his "replacements" really have the same creative style as he did. Kevin brought something different to the table, along with Derek and Jordan.
This. That's why we all workship I&W and Awake.
Its a great record, but I personally like SFAM better so I think they replaced KM just fine.
So would you want KM to return and replace JR at this point? I sure wouldn't.
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I thoroughly agree with everything Blob has said in this thread.
I also agree with this quote, as it sums up my thoughts perfectly:
As the primary songwriter, JP leaving would definitely be difficult to overcome. I'm not sure the band could. I'm not sure they would ever try.
Anyone else in the band is replaceable IMO. JLB is the most difficult to imagine leaving, and probably the most difficult to replace after JP. It'd be difficult to see Myung go, but the impact wouldn't be as huge. I like Mangini, but he could really come or go since he's so new, and it wouldn't shake things up much. Rudess leaving would be a lot like MP leaving - most people would be sad, but a lot of people would be excited to hear what a new keyboardist could bring to the table, esp since JR has always gotten some criticism.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
Come on we know you love MP, but the last 2 albums?
Show me one part from ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play. I wish it wasn't the case, but MM hasn't really done anything to impress me and MP is most certainly capabale of playing his parts.
Just my thoughts: I always thought that people here were done with the MP departure thing, but it seems that for many people that's not the case. And i agree MP gets way too much shit here. The band would not be even a fraction of what it is today if not for him.
And regarding whos irreplacable, i would have to say if JP leaves its game over for DT. ADTOE was great, but judging just how incredibly bad this new album was i cannot see how MM is aiding the songwriting process in any way. He is still a fantastic drummer and a member of the band, don't get me wrong. But i don't think he is as irreplacable as some people here seem to think.
But i am happy with DT the way it is at the moment, i just hope that the next album is a lot better than this one :tup
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"Is Anyone Irreplaceable?"
Kevin Moore.
Well, obviously there is no truth in that thought.
It depends what you mean by replaceable. In the context of your thread, you're right. Derek and then Jordan took his place in the band, and I thought both worked out really well. Stylistically, however, neither of his "replacements" really have the same creative style as he did. Kevin brought something different to the table, along with Derek and Jordan.
This. That's why we all workship I&W and Awake.
Its a great record, but I personally like SFAM better so I think they replaced KM just fine.
So would you want KM to return and replace JR at this point? I sure wouldn't.
I love JR and I don't want him to leave DT ever, but it would be an interesting experiment to see it in some sort of alternate reality.
As many have said, I think JP is the irreplaceable member of the band. He drives it musically, he's one of the two founding members left and out of those two, he's the one that brings more creative input into the band. He could be replaced by someone else playing his stuff, sure, but not creatively. Next, JLB because he's the center of attention during the bigger part of every song, and having someone else sing instead of him would make the band sound VERY different. Perhaps someone else could sing his parts, but not like him. It would be too different to stand.
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"Is Anyone Irreplaceable?"
Kevin Moore.
Well, obviously there is no truth in that thought.
It depends what you mean by replaceable. In the context of your thread, you're right. Derek and then Jordan took his place in the band, and I thought both worked out really well. Stylistically, however, neither of his "replacements" really have the same creative style as he did. Kevin brought something different to the table, along with Derek and Jordan.
This. That's why we all workship I&W and Awake.
Its a great record, but I personally like SFAM better so I think they replaced KM just fine.
So would you want KM to return and replace JR at this point? I sure wouldn't.
I love JR and I don't want him to leave DT ever, but it would be an interesting experiment to see it in some sort of alternate reality.
As many have said, I think JP is the irreplaceable member of the band. He drives it musically, he's one of the two founding members left and out of those two, he's the one that brings more creative input into the band. He could be replaced by someone else playing his stuff, sure, but not creatively. Next, JLB because he's the center of attention during the bigger part of every song, and having someone else sing instead of him would make the band sound VERY different. Perhaps someone else could sing his parts, but not like him. It would be too different to stand.
Keep in mind my scenario is based on Mike Portnoy still being in the band and whether or not DT could have continued if it had been JP leaving instead of MP.
If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
Come on we know you love MP, but the last 2 albums?
Show me one part from ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play. I wish it wasn't the case, but MM hasn't really done anything to impress me and MP is most certainly capabale of playing his parts.
Just my thoughts: I always thought that people here were done with the MP departure thing, but it seems that for many people that's not the case. And i agree MP gets way too much shit here. The band would not be even a fraction of what it is today if not for him.
And regarding whos irreplacable, i would have to say if JP leaves its game over for DT. ADTOE was great, but judging just how incredibly bad this new album was i cannot see how MM is aiding the songwriting process in any way. He is still a fantastic drummer and a member of the band, don't get me wrong. But i don't think he is as irreplacable as some people here seem to think.
But i am happy with DT the way it is at the moment, i just hope that the next album is a lot better than this one :tup
The new record is, "incredibly bad"? Well, ya lost me there.
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Then I wouldn't agree :lol The work chemistry between MP and KM is pretty bad. I thought the scenario meant a JLB-JP-MM-JMX-KM line up.
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I think replacing JM would actually change the sound a lot more than you'd expect. His style is really pretty unusual, and quite ornate. I think you'd need to add a lot more layers of everything else to result in the same filled-outness of sound.
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The new record is, "incredibly bad"? Well, ya lost me there.
I know many people here think DT12 is the best thing since sliced bread, and i m completely fine with that. :) I just gave my humble opinion :biggrin:
Like i said despite the new album, i think they are in great shape right now!
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If JP leaves, the band is done. 100%
JM is probably the easiest to replace, but JLB should probably be the first they replace.
Um, no, thanks.
Also, Petrucci is definitely the most irreplaceable member.
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Apparently and most unfortunately it seems to be Hugh Syme.
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Apparently and most unfortunately it seems to be Hugh Syme.
:rollin
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:lol
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The new record is, "incredibly bad"? Well, ya lost me there.
I know many people here think DT12 is the best thing since sliced bread...
:rollin
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All of the members of the band are awesome but JP is irreplacable because of his leadership and songwriting. JLB is also because someone else singing DT songs would be wrong.
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*Quote pyramid*
Really?
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The new record is, "incredibly bad"? Well, ya lost me there.
I know many people here think DT12 is the best thing since sliced bread, and i m completely fine with that. :) I just gave my humble opinion :biggrin:
Like i said despite the new album, i think they are in great shape right now!
Well honestly its too soon for me to go nuts considering I have only heard this record a couple times, but its certainly not a bad record in my opinion. I'm also not ready to hail it as a career masterpiece. I just want to be fair in judging any new record and for me its way to soon to label it. I like it. That's as much as I can say at this point.
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Apparently and most unfortunately it seems to be Hugh Syme.
This post won the thread. :lol
At this point for me, I could really only see JR and MM leaving the band. JM, JLB or JP leaving would break the harmony completely. Though I hate to leave people out in this manner.
JR leaving would be a huge blow. There are some parts it'd be hard to find a suitable keyboardist to play. Moreover, his creative input is outmatched only by JP's. The replacement would have to be a creative, extremely skilled keyboardist with lots of motivation and drive. DT really was lucky to have found MM, but tbh, compared to MP, he is just a guy who goes to the studio and plays whatever the band needs to be played, albeit doing it better than his predecessor. I'd really like for him to get involved with the songwriting.
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Apparently and most unfortunately it seems to be Hugh Syme.
This post won the thread. :lol
At this point for me, I could really only see JR and MM leaving the band. JM, JLB or JP leaving would break the harmony completely. Though I hate to leave people out in this manner.
JR leaving would be a huge blow. There are some parts it'd be hard to find a suitable keyboardist to play. Moreover, his creative input is outmatched only by JP's. The replacement would have to be a creative, extremely skilled keyboardist with lots of motivation and drive...
Someone like Vitalij Kuprij.
Or DS. ;)
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As the primary songwriter, JP leaving would definitely be difficult to overcome. I'm not sure the band could. I'm not sure they would ever try.
Anyone else in the band is replaceable IMO. JLB is the most difficult to imagine leaving, and probably the most difficult to replace after JP. It'd be difficult to see Myung go, but the impact wouldn't be as huge. I like Mangini, but he could really come or go since he's so new, and it wouldn't shake things up much. Rudess leaving would be a lot like MP leaving - most people would be sad, but a lot of people would be excited to hear what a new keyboardist could bring to the table, esp since JR has always gotten some criticism.
Basically this.
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I vote for Sebastian Bach in JLB leaves.
Also, completely agree its laughable that MP couldn't play all the parts on DT11 or DT12.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
I really don't understand this stuff that MP couldn't play MM's parts in ADTOE and DT12.
I'm not a drummer and don't really understand the complexity of drumming.. But in my ears the parts he is playing doesn't sound "that difficult"
Can someone pinpoint a certain stuff in ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play... Cos I really thought there aren't anything he couldn't play.
If you guys meant that MM can play super fast with one hand and MP can't do that , then I understand...
And... If JLB leaves , I'd replace him with Fabio Lione!!! He looks the same and sounds amazing :laugh:
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
I really don't understand this stuff that MP couldn't play MM's parts in ADTOE and DT12.
I'm not a drummer and don't really understand the complexity of drumming.. But in my ears the parts he is playing doesn't sound "that difficult"
Can someone pinpoint a certain stuff in ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play... Cos I really thought there aren't anything he couldn't play.
If you guys meant that MM can play super fast with one hand and MP can't do that , then I understand...
And... If JLB leaves , I'd replace him with Fabio Lione!!! He looks the same and sounds amazing :laugh:
Well, one of the main attributes of MM is the ability to play different time signatures at the same time, meaning, playing 1 thing on one hand, on a totally different thing on the other hand, but he took it to another lever, he can do that, with his 4 limbs!... AT THE SAME TIME. That's one thing, the other thing is that he is currently the main time signature mentor for the band, JP, JMX and JR have admitted having MM explaining to them different rhythm technics. And he has applied some of those examples on both albums. He is a true monster on the kit, simple as that. Technically speaking MP is no way on the same league, MP even admitted that he left some technical and reading practicing behind, MM was a Berklee teacher. But look I'm not saying that MP is bad, no way!! he was part of the main sound of this glorious band for so many years, he is gone, MM took his place, and raised it to another level.
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I really don't understand this stuff that MP couldn't play MM's parts in ADTOE and DT12.
I'm not a drummer and don't really understand the complexity of drumming.. But in my ears the parts he is playing doesn't sound "that difficult"
Can someone pinpoint a certain stuff in ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play... Cos I really thought there aren't anything he couldn't play.
If you guys meant that MM can play super fast with one hand and MP can't do that , then I understand...
And... If JLB leaves , I'd replace him with Fabio Lione!!! He looks the same and sounds amazing :laugh:
Well, one of the main attributes of MM is the ability to play different time signatures at the same time, meaning, playing 1 thing on one hand, on a totally different thing on the other hand, but he took it to another lever, he can do that, with his 4 limbs!... AT THE SAME TIME. That's one thing, the other thing is that he is currently the main time signature mentor for the band, JP, JMX and JR have admitted having MM explaining to them different rhythm technics. And he has applied some of those examples on both albums. He is a true monster on the kit, simple as that. Technically speaking MP is no way on the same league, MP even admitted that he left some technical and reading practicing behind, MM was a Berklee teacher. But look I'm not saying that MP is bad, no way!! he was part of the main sound of this glorious band for so many years, he is gone, MM took his place, and raised it to another level.
Okay Okay, Thanks!! But Is there some parts in ADTOE or DT12 that MP propably couldn't play? :laugh:
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I really don't understand this stuff that MP couldn't play MM's parts in ADTOE and DT12.
I'm not a drummer and don't really understand the complexity of drumming.. But in my ears the parts he is playing doesn't sound "that difficult"
Can someone pinpoint a certain stuff in ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play... Cos I really thought there aren't anything he couldn't play.
If you guys meant that MM can play super fast with one hand and MP can't do that , then I understand...
And... If JLB leaves , I'd replace him with Fabio Lione!!! He looks the same and sounds amazing :laugh:
Well, one of the main attributes of MM is the ability to play different time signatures at the same time, meaning, playing 1 thing on one hand, on a totally different thing on the other hand, but he took it to another lever, he can do that, with his 4 limbs!... AT THE SAME TIME. That's one thing, the other thing is that he is currently the main time signature mentor for the band, JP, JMX and JR have admitted having MM explaining to them different rhythm technics. And he has applied some of those examples on both albums. He is a true monster on the kit, simple as that. Technically speaking MP is no way on the same league, MP even admitted that he left some technical and reading practicing behind, MM was a Berklee teacher. But look I'm not saying that MP is bad, no way!! he was part of the main sound of this glorious band for so many years, he is gone, MM took his place, and raised it to another level.
Okay Okay, Thanks!! But Is there some parts in ADTOE or DT12 that MP propably couldn't play? :laugh:
Yes there is :tup
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I really don't understand this stuff that MP couldn't play MM's parts in ADTOE and DT12.
I'm not a drummer and don't really understand the complexity of drumming.. But in my ears the parts he is playing doesn't sound "that difficult"
Can someone pinpoint a certain stuff in ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play... Cos I really thought there aren't anything he couldn't play.
If you guys meant that MM can play super fast with one hand and MP can't do that , then I understand...
And... If JLB leaves , I'd replace him with Fabio Lione!!! He looks the same and sounds amazing :laugh:
Well, one of the main attributes of MM is the ability to play different time signatures at the same time, meaning, playing 1 thing on one hand, on a totally different thing on the other hand, but he took it to another lever, he can do that, with his 4 limbs!... AT THE SAME TIME. That's one thing, the other thing is that he is currently the main time signature mentor for the band, JP, JMX and JR have admitted having MM explaining to them different rhythm technics. And he has applied some of those examples on both albums. He is a true monster on the kit, simple as that. Technically speaking MP is no way on the same league, MP even admitted that he left some technical and reading practicing behind, MM was a Berklee teacher. But look I'm not saying that MP is bad, no way!! he was part of the main sound of this glorious band for so many years, he is gone, MM took his place, and raised it to another level.
Okay Okay, Thanks!! But Is there some parts in ADTOE or DT12 that MP propably couldn't play? :laugh:
Yes there is :tup
TELL ME NOW!!! :corn
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I'm not a drummer so I'm just guessing, but I don't think MP could do the cymbal strokes at 3:28 in OTBOA with one hand like MM. The ending of BITS and some rhythmically crazy stuff in other songs might be challenging too.
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I really don't understand this stuff that MP couldn't play MM's parts in ADTOE and DT12.
I'm not a drummer and don't really understand the complexity of drumming.. But in my ears the parts he is playing doesn't sound "that difficult"
Can someone pinpoint a certain stuff in ADTOE or DT12 that MP couldn't play... Cos I really thought there aren't anything he couldn't play.
If you guys meant that MM can play super fast with one hand and MP can't do that , then I understand...
And... If JLB leaves , I'd replace him with Fabio Lione!!! He looks the same and sounds amazing :laugh:
Well, one of the main attributes of MM is the ability to play different time signatures at the same time, meaning, playing 1 thing on one hand, on a totally different thing on the other hand, but he took it to another lever, he can do that, with his 4 limbs!... AT THE SAME TIME. That's one thing, the other thing is that he is currently the main time signature mentor for the band, JP, JMX and JR have admitted having MM explaining to them different rhythm technics. And he has applied some of those examples on both albums. He is a true monster on the kit, simple as that. Technically speaking MP is no way on the same league, MP even admitted that he left some technical and reading practicing behind, MM was a Berklee teacher. But look I'm not saying that MP is bad, no way!! he was part of the main sound of this glorious band for so many years, he is gone, MM took his place, and raised it to another level.
Okay Okay, Thanks!! But Is there some parts in ADTOE or DT12 that MP propably couldn't play? :laugh:
Yes there is :tup
TELL ME NOW!!! :corn
I've done my homework already on that, do yours! :tup
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I'm not a drummer so I'm just guessing, but I don't think MP could do the cymbal strokes at 3:28 in OTBOA with one hand like MM. The ending of BITS and some rhythmically crazy stuff in other songs might be challenging too.
Very good example!
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I don't think anyone in the band is genuinely irreplaceable, but in terms of ranking how difficult it would be to replace them convincingly I'd go with the following order:
1. JP
2. JLB
3. JR
4. JM
(big gulf, then...)
5. MM
Although I've put JR above JM based on perceived creative influence I'd be less bothered if JR needed to be replaced than if JM needed to be replaced.
MM is the Rusty Cooley of drumming, as far as I'm concerned - extremely high technical expertise and not much else. You might struggle to find someone capable of playing his parts from the last couple of albums, but you could easily fake them and have a drummer who plays with proper oomph, as opposed to MM's robotic tippy tappy footering, and I suspect < 1% of the audience would neither notice nor care.
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Well, one of the main attributes of MM is the ability to play different time signatures at the same time, meaning, playing 1 thing on one hand, on a totally different thing on the other hand, but he took it to another lever, he can do that, with his 4 limbs!... AT THE SAME TIME. That's one thing, the other thing is that he is currently the main time signature mentor for the band, JP, JMX and JR have admitted having MM explaining to them different rhythm technics. And he has applied some of those examples on both albums. He is a true monster on the kit, simple as that. Technically speaking MP is no way on the same league, MP even admitted that he left some technical and reading practicing behind, MM was a Berklee teacher. But look I'm not saying that MP is bad, no way!! he was part of the main sound of this glorious band for so many years, he is gone, MM took his place, and raised it to another level.
I don't think we have enough elements to say that (the "raised to another level" part). Techincal skills aren't the only thing that makes a musician a really good one. I'm not saying I don't like MM, don't get me wrong. It's just we had MP for a long time and he blew our minds basically all the time. Yeah, I don't like SC or BC&SL as well, but the drum parts on those albums are still realy great to me. So, as a drummer, I would say we just need to wait and give more time to MM 'cuz one album isn't anything compared to 25 years of music. And no, I'm definitely not a MP fanboy or something. I said several times I was disappointed by some of his behaviours after leaving the band.
Going back to the question, I really can't imagine Dream Theater without JP or JLB (I couldn't even without Portnoy actually).
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*Quote pyramid*
Really?
No...not really.
Apparently and most unfortunately it seems to be Hugh Syme.
This post won the thread. :lol
Their are no winners or losers in this thread. This is 2013, every boy and girl gets a trophy!
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Tick is jealous because he didn't win. Don't listen to him folks.
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Tick is jealous because he didn't win. Don't listen to him folks.
I won, you won, we all won! Were all awesome!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvHj0vovQHI
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JP is irreplaceable. JLB, probably. Everyone else could leave and DT would live on.
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Musically, JP and LaBrie (irreplaceable).
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Petrucci.
-J
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Jordan and John Petrucci because of them being DT's main sound.
John Myung for just being there the entire time and being John Petrucci's best friend.
James for being that "surface sound" as someone else described it.
Mike Mangini because the rest of the band said so.
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James LaBrie, just because IMO, voice is the signature and soul of a band.
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Okay Okay, Thanks!! But Is there some parts in ADTOE or DT12 that MP propably couldn't play? :laugh:
Yes there is :tup
TELL ME NOW!!! :corn
I've done my homework already on that, do yours! :tup
Personally, if there's someone out there that can answer this question off the top of their head then it'd be quite nice to hear from them. Really can't be bothered to listen through two albums just purely to assess how possible the drum parts are for someone else to play.
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JP and JP only.
And MP is capable of playing MM's parts. You guys are getting carried away on that whole thing :)
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Well, one of the main attributes of MM is the ability to play different time signatures at the same time, meaning, playing 1 thing on one hand, on a totally different thing on the other hand, but he took it to another lever, he can do that, with his 4 limbs!... AT THE SAME TIME. That's one thing, the other thing is that he is currently the main time signature mentor for the band, JP, JMX and JR have admitted having MM explaining to them different rhythm technics. And he has applied some of those examples on both albums. He is a true monster on the kit, simple as that. Technically speaking MP is no way on the same league, MP even admitted that he left some technical and reading practicing behind, MM was a Berklee teacher. But look I'm not saying that MP is bad, no way!! he was part of the main sound of this glorious band for so many years, he is gone, MM took his place, and raised it to another level.
I don't think we have enough elements to say that (the "raised to another level" part). Techincal skills aren't the only thing that makes a musician a really good one. I'm not saying I don't like MM, don't get me wrong. It's just we had MP for a long time and he blew our minds basically all the time. Yeah, I don't like SC or BC&SL as well, but the drum parts on those albums are still realy great to me. So, as a drummer, I would say we just need to wait and give more time to MM 'cuz one album isn't anything compared to 25 years of music. And no, I'm definitely not a MP fanboy or something. I said several times I was disappointed by some of his behaviours after leaving the band.
Going back to the question, I really can't imagine Dream Theater without JP or JLB (I couldn't even without Portnoy actually).
Just let me put it this way, would you dare to sit Travis Barker instead of MM? If the answer is no, ask yourself why, and there is my point.
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Seriously, I can't see your point. And yes, the answer is definitely no :D
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JP is irreplaceable. JLB, probably. Everyone else could leave and DT would live on.
This, and there are definitely lots of drum parts on the last two albums that MP couldn't play easily and definitely could not have come up with in the first place.
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Seriously, I can't see your point. And yes, the answer is definitely no :D
Forget it then hahaha :rollin
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JP is irreplaceable. JLB, probably. Everyone else could leave and DT would live on.
This, and there are definitely lots of drum parts on the last two albums that MP couldn't play easily and definitely could not have come up with in the first place.
on the other side of it...MM is very technically proficient which can come off a bit robotic at times, whereas MP has a lot of feel in his parts. I certainly acknowledge MM as the more technical guy but I don't put him above MP overall. Both guys do an amazing job.
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JP is irreplaceable. JLB, probably. Everyone else could leave and DT would live on.
This, and there are definitely lots of drum parts on the last two albums that MP couldn't play easily and definitely could not have come up with in the first place.
on the other side of it...MM is very technically proficient which can come off a bit robotic at times, whereas MP has a lot of feel in his parts. I certainly acknowledge MM as the more technical guy but I don't put him above MP overall. Both guys do an amazing job.
MP has a standard rock "feel."
He's a unique player with his own personal style. But "feel" is not something I'd say he has a lot of.
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JP is irreplaceable. JLB, probably. Everyone else could leave and DT would live on.
This, and there are definitely lots of drum parts on the last two albums that MP couldn't play easily and definitely could not have come up with in the first place.
on the other side of it...MM is very technically proficient which can come off a bit robotic at times, whereas MP has a lot of feel in his parts. I certainly acknowledge MM as the more technical guy but I don't put him above MP overall. Both guys do an amazing job.
MP has a standard rock "feel."
He's a unique player with his own personal style. But "feel" is not something I'd say he has a lot of.
I'd say he has plenty of feel. How does a personal style not constitute "feel"?
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JP is irreplaceable. JLB, probably. Everyone else could leave and DT would live on.
This, and there are definitely lots of drum parts on the last two albums that MP couldn't play easily and definitely could not have come up with in the first place.
on the other side of it...MM is very technically proficient which can come off a bit robotic at times, whereas MP has a lot of feel in his parts. I certainly acknowledge MM as the more technical guy but I don't put him above MP overall. Both guys do an amazing job.
MP has a standard rock "feel."
He's a unique player with his own personal style. But "feel" is not something I'd say he has a lot of.
Listen to Mike on a song like Deja Vu from Scenes. That has so much feel and emotion as far as I'm concerned, or The Root Of All Evil. People all of a sudden are very dismissive of MP's skills and I don't get that?
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His "feel" and "emotion" are not the same as his skills. I am somewhat dismissive of MP's skills, but only in comparison to someone like MM (or Virgil Donati, or Thomas Lang, or Marco Minneman), due to what I see and hear and from things MP himself has said along the same lines. But I think his feel is great, and always has been. That's one thing that makes him good as an arranger.
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If you taje JP away from DT you kill DT, he and JL are the main sound of the band, but def JP is the center.
And yes you may replace MM "because he is new", but I don't se any other human having the balls to take challenge that MM may leave behind.
I do: MP.
That's like saying I can replace my new Ferrari with my old bike.
WTF no it's not. DT did not go for 25 years with an old bike.
MP gets far too much shit here. No, he's not MM, but he wouldn't have any real problem playing 99% of the parts on ADTOE and DT12.
True dat. Mike Portnoy would have no problem playing the last 2 albums. C'mon, the guy is world class.
He'd be able to play it, just not the same. See Apocalypse 1470 off the PMSL dvd. And that was the parts by a drummer who didn't get the DT gig.
And MP would have the balls to do it, certainly. The chops? Maybe not. I'm not slating the guy, he's just not in the same class as MM. If he was as devoted to his craft he may well have been, but he's been resting on his laurels a long time.
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MP is one of my favorite musicians. He does a lot of stuff that I love, and I think he's come up with some of the coolest parts over the years. But technique has never been the reason why, because it is not a stylistic feature of his playing. Amazing technique and virtuosity are features of Marco's, MM's and Virgil's playing. Similarly, "groove" or "feel" are not reasons why I love MP's music. Groove isn't even a stylistic feature of this genre. When you think of great groove drummers, you don't think of prog metal drummers for a reason. Have you ever heard of a knowledgable drummer/musician with a good ear and exposure to a multitude of genres listen to DT and go "wow man that's an incredible groove Dream Theater laid down." That would never happen.
Feel is very closely related to groove. It's about how you FEEL the beat and whether you play on top of it, behind it or in front of it and it includes articulation, dynamics and volume control. As a quick example, go back to the documentary and listen to how Marco plays the Spirit Carries On. Then go listen to how Derrick Roddy plays it. Those two feel (all puns intended) completely different. I've probably posted on this before at length (in fact, I think I did a long time ago) so I won't belabor it.
My point is that when I think of MP's playing I think about all the great moments on records like Images. A lot of those parts were extremely creative to me. Someone also mentioned arrangement. I totally agree with that. He's a great arranger. But to say that he's technical or can groove really well, or has a feel other than a straight up rock feel, borders on just funny.
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For me, probably the most important feature of a drummer is taste. MP's playing was always tasteful and organic. He really shines on the less technical songs as well. A simple, tasty fill can go a long way.
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JP and JLB.
The singer of a band is something that a lot of the fans are used to the most. After 11 albums, if JLB was replaced, I'd probably just change the band name and start a new project.
JP is the primary songwriter and has become the driving force of the band lately. I'm sure they could find someone and replace him with someone like Thiago Campos to play his stuff... but it's JP that comes up with the melodies/chord progressions/riffs that we are used to.
I think if JP left, the band would just call it quits.