I saw someone post this, and it puzzled me as well.
QuoteI was listening to Metropolis 2 by Dream Theater today and noticed that in Finally Free, you can hear four gunshots. I'm assuming Nicholas shoots Julian twice and shoots Victoria twice. How could he have staged it as a murder/suicide if there were two bullet holes in Julian?
Or did he miss with the first bullet? Did the cops assume that Julian shot at Victoria three times and missed once?
Now I don't actually mind if it's just an unintentional plot hole, which it seems to be. It's not a big deal, is easy to forget about, and doesn't really affect much. But what I wanted to know is if you guys could somehow think of a way this could actually work and make sense with all the shots fired. Any input?
Never thought about it, but an interesting point that I've never heard raised before!
We hear a struggle, so it's likely that Julian wasn't holding still waiting to be shot, so I think it's possible that it took two shots before he was hit. It's not we're dealing with a skilled hitman here or anything, and it was only two shots fired, so I can believe that one missed. I'd assume he's never fired a gun before (believable, since this was a crime of "passion", and not of a serial killer).
If he was staging a suicide, he'd probably want a headshot, so it's a smaller area to hit, easy enough to miss.
From the audio, I think the likely scenario is that they have a struggle, gun held to Julian's head, while Julian is grabbing his hands to push the gun away, and they're stumbling around smashing glass etc.
They're frantically fighting, and the first shot narrowly misses because his hands are momentarily pushed away, but the second one cops Julian under the chin through the brain, or in the face etc. Since the two shots are fired close together, I think this is a likely scenario.
Then he realizes Victoria is being a noisy bitch, and shoots her too. And she was the murder part, so he could shoot her twice just for the fun of it.
It's just a simple time-space energy mix-up: When Edward killed Victoria, it coincided with the Hypnotherapist killing Nicholas. This repeat of the exact same event occurring in two different times created a paradox that took the sound from when the Hypnotherapist killed Nicholas (which is why no gunshot is heard at the very end of Finally Free) and deposited it in the past when the same event occurred. Thus, Edward fired two shots at Victoria, one shot at Julian, and the fourth came from Edward's future self killing Victoria's future self. In a way, Edward did fire three shots at Victoria, just not as the same person.
:millahhhh
:clap:
Quote from: Cedar redaC on January 02, 2013, 11:45:12 PM
It's just a simple time-space energy mix-up: When Edward killed Victoria, it coincided with the Hypnotherapist killing Nicholas. This repeat of the exact same event occurring in two different times created a paradox that took the sound from when the Hypnotherapist killed Nicholas (which is why no gunshot is heard at the very end of Finally Free) and deposited it in the past when the same event occurred. Thus, Edward fired two shots at Victoria, one shot at Julian, and the fourth came from Edward's future self killing Victoria's future self. In a way, Edward did fire three shots at Victoria, just not as the same person.
:millahhhh
:lol
I always thought that the third and fourth shot came from JP's guitar. He wanted to show off the firepowers of his new Music Man :lol
before you guys jump at me jaws-open, I perfectly know that JP wasn't yet on a MM at the time.
A gunshot does not always mean a hole in a person/item. Perhaps Nicholas was a poor shot.
Quote from: Mindflux on January 03, 2013, 06:51:54 AM
A gunshot does not always mean a hole in a person/item. Perhaps Nicholas was a poor shot.
You mean Edward. But yes, seriously speaking that could have been it. After all, he was drinking, right?
This is all Mike Portnoy's fault. After all, he did write Finally Free.
:neverusethis:
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2013, 08:00:01 AM
Quote from: Mindflux on January 03, 2013, 06:51:54 AM
A gunshot does not always mean a hole in a person/item. Perhaps Nicholas was a poor shot.
You mean Edward. But yes, seriously speaking that could have been it. After all, he was drinking, right?
Sometimes it is reported that a suicide victim misses the first shot and has to fire a second one. Or he first shot himself in.... the heart, which wouldn't kill him immediately but leave him the few seconds for a final blow to the head....
An example from WW2 history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Beck#20_July_plot
I would never shoot myself in the head. I'd rather hit the heart and wait, or beg my killer to do so.
I'm guessing they didn't even think about it. I don't think they really spent that much time double-checking the story for plot holes. I mean, for example... did Nicholas live alone, or did he have a wife and kids? At different points in the story it says both are true.
Quote from: wasteland on January 03, 2013, 08:30:33 AM
I would never shoot myself in the head. I'd rather hit the heart and wait, or beg my killer to do so.
I wouldn't shoot myself period.
In the DVD's horrible reenactment, doesn't the gunman shoot from a distance? And it looks like he makes body shots.
Quote from: Ħ on January 03, 2013, 09:16:48 AM
In the DVD's horrible reenactment, doesn't the gunman shoot from a distance? And it looks like he makes body shots.
With a period inaccurate gun too! This time travel theory case is looking stronger and stronger........
Or they really didn't think it through when they put together the audio clip and/or the video.
Or they were thinking about creating an awesome album rather than thinking about fans who'd overanalyze every sound from their songs almost 14 years later......
Quote from: ZeppelinDT on January 03, 2013, 08:44:40 AM
I mean, for example... did Nicholas live alone, or did he have a wife and kids? At different points in the story it says both are true.
Now that I think about it, you're actually right! :omg: "alone at night", "I've got a son, I've got a wife"
EDIT: I can already imagine this scene:
Nicholas: *weeps like a baby*
Wife: Shut up, I'm trying to sleep!
So much inaccuracy... Steven Wilson would not have let this happen :\
Quote from: philmcson on January 03, 2013, 09:32:21 AM
Or they were thinking about creating an awesome album rather than thinking about fans who'd overanalyze every sound from their songs almost 14 years later......
Hey, man. You can't pull that out when I already disclaimed that kind of response. :P
My theory is that Edward was really a giant squid, but he was so good at bluffing that everyone always mistook him for a local politician. Thus he was using one gun for each pair of tentacles, not including the long ones, which were being used as legs. What people are forgetting is that there was a third unreported shooting half way across town (because squid are excellent shots) and that all guns were retroengineered from Cthulhoid technology.
Maybe, just maybe, all of the previously stated theories are completely wrong. Maybe the entire album is a dream that Nicholas had. When The Hypnotherapist killed Nicholas, maybe he just woke up. That would explain the lack of a gunshot at the end of Finally Free and it would explain how Nicholas was both single and married (dreams are funny that way.) It would also explain why the guns from the movie are period inaccurate, along with basically any other inconsistency in the plot.
When does the dream start? As you remember from Inception, dreams always start in the middle of the dream. As such, the entire album up until Nicholas's scream at the end of the album is a dream. When we listen to the album, we are basically listening to his dream as it unfolds (in a Dream Theater, of sorts). When he wakes up, the dream ends and we, the listeners, are left with static.
It all happened totally other way... and no one has found out yet how.
Maybe universe is just Nicholas' dream..... and DT were the only ones smart enough to reveal it..... just that they have to hide this fact behind endless metaphores.....
(https://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjp6mEPzf1qjhons.jpg)
This is my other theory.
Maybe Edward made a mistake and the police were just really stupid.
Quote from: ? on January 03, 2013, 09:40:28 AM
Quote from: ZeppelinDT on January 03, 2013, 08:44:40 AM
I mean, for example... did Nicholas live alone, or did he have a wife and kids? At different points in the story it says both are true.
Now that I think about it, you're actually right! :omg: "alone at night", "I've got a son, I've got a wife"
EDIT: I can already imagine this scene:
Nicholas: *weeps like a baby*
Wife: Shut up, I'm trying to sleep!
Just because you're married and have a child doesn't mean that they are constantly with you.
"Alone at night" means he's the only one awake because of what's troubling him. That is perfectly clear I think?
edit: WE ARE THE PRIESTS OF THE TEMPLES OF SYYYYRINX
Mili, you just hit the Rush postcount.
Oh god, Nicholas's son is a orphan. :omg: Cruel, cruel DT... Orphaning a kid in a prog album is not cool... :'(
Maybe it was...
... a fatal tragedy.
:lhk:
Quote from: DebraKadabra on January 03, 2013, 06:30:56 PM
Maybe it was...
... a fatal tragedy.
:lhk:
She passed away,she was so young...
Quote from: ZirconBlue on January 03, 2013, 01:31:43 PM
Just because you're married and have a child doesn't mean that they are constantly with you.
I know, but it makes me think that JP may have thrown in the reference to the son and wife just for the sake of rhyming or to give fans something to (over)analyze.
Quote from: wasteland on January 03, 2013, 01:51:49 PM
Mili, you just hit the Rush postcount.
Oh god, Nicholas's son is a orphan. :omg: Cruel, cruel DT... Orphaning a kid in a prog album is not cool... :'(
Well not necessarily, it's explicitly stated he has a wife, and I'm pretty sure it implies she's still alive. Certainly it never explicitly stated that she's licked the bucket.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o5BsdQuK7VI/TZ_EzHgCurI/AAAAAAAACUs/LWuXyRRHF3Q/s1600/kfc+bucket+of+chicken.gif)
That whole part is just a reference to Voices.
Quote"You've got to know who you're dealin' with because, like a stranger,
A-heh, just might come in through here with a gun...
And then, what would you do? (Heh.)"
Think about it.
Quote from: Orbert on January 04, 2013, 06:32:57 AM
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9QX-Ew5yWRM/UOcDKmQGOsI/AAAAAAAAAO4/5UaDmHt_F2E/s800/orbert%2520bucket%2520of%2520chicken2.gif)
ftfy
:hefdaddy :lol :hefdaddy :lol :hefdaddy
Quote from: Sketchy on January 04, 2013, 06:18:45 AM
Quote from: wasteland on January 03, 2013, 01:51:49 PM
Mili, you just hit the Rush postcount.
Oh god, Nicholas's son is a orphan. :omg: Cruel, cruel DT... Orphaning a kid in a prog album is not cool... :'(
Well not necessarily, it's explicitly stated he has a wife, and I'm pretty sure it implies she's still alive. Certainly it never explicitly stated that she's licked the bucket.
But in the context of the song it kind of implies he's always alone at night. It's a recurring dream he's having rather than being like, just some random dream he had one night when he happened to be alone. He also comes home to an empty home at the end of the story.
The real answer is probably a lot simpler.
The Fatal Tragedy lyrics were written by JM. The Through Her Eyes lyrics were written by JP. They probably just didn't compare notes.
Well one of the foundations of the story is who and what Nicholas is, it's a little too huge to miss when not comparing notes.
When he wakes up he is always "alone", he never wakes his family up. About arriving to an empty house... his son is school-age and has friends (probably) and god forbid if anyone remembered his wife is allowed to have a social life of her own :P
Maybe... but it still doesn't explain why he's alone every night. I interpret the "alone at night" line as suggesting that he's alone every night. He's talking about his recurring dreams, not just about one particular night.
But women who have own social lives aren't any good as wives! (https://boldanddetermined.com/2012/01/21/pick-the-right-wife/)
I'm sorry. I couldn't pass that one by.
Quote from: Scorpion on January 04, 2013, 09:50:10 AM
But women who have own social lives aren't any good as wives! (https://boldanddetermined.com/2012/01/21/pick-the-right-wife/)
I'm sorry. I couldn't pass that one by.
:lol
Zeppelin, I always thought it meant that he is the only one awake and therefore feels alone.
Bugger it, I meant "kicked". I had my mind on food.
Quote from: Sketchy on January 04, 2013, 06:18:45 AM
Quote from: wasteland on January 03, 2013, 01:51:49 PM
Mili, you just hit the Rush postcount.
Oh god, Nicholas's son is a orphan. :omg: Cruel, cruel DT... Orphaning a kid in a prog album is not cool... :'(
Well not necessarily, it's explicitly stated he has a wife, and I'm pretty sure it implies she's still alive. Certainly it never explicitly stated that she's licked the bucket.
Okay, but this guy is dreaming about some other girl. He's having crazy visions. So just because he has a song and WIFE, it doesn't mean that they're living together. She could have easily left him for something like that. Heck, by the time Finally Free happens, they could be all out divorced.
In fact, that should be DT12: Metropolis Pt. 3: Nicholas' Divorce Trial
Quote from: Scorpion on January 04, 2013, 09:50:10 AM
But women who have own social lives aren't any good as wives! (https://boldanddetermined.com/2012/01/21/pick-the-right-wife/)
I'm sorry. I couldn't pass that one by.
Lol. I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've heard anybody use the word "dweeb" since 1987.
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 04, 2013, 09:59:56 AM
Zeppelin, I always thought it meant that he is the only one awake and therefore feels alone.
I guess it could have meant that, although to me that sounds like kind of a weird interpretation.
I actually thought that somebody in the band had been asked about this at some point and they just said something like "yeah, we just overlooked that", but it's entirely possible that I'm completely imagining that.
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 04, 2013, 09:41:35 AM
Well one of the foundations of the story is who and what Nicholas is, it's a little too huge to miss when not comparing notes.
When he wakes up he is always "alone", he never wakes his family up. About arriving to an empty house... his son is school-age and has friends (probably) and god forbid if anyone remembered his wife is allowed to have a social life of her own :P
This has come up before. His son had a soccer game after school that day. Nicholas had an important meeting at work with a new client and it ran late, so his wife took their son to the game. It was an away game, one of the few over in the next county with a non-conference team. By time Nicholas finally got off work, the game was over, so he just went home. Made a drink, turned on the TV, figured he'd relax a bit before they came home.
Quote from: ZeppelinDT on January 04, 2013, 10:17:37 AM
I guess it could have meant that, although to me that sounds like kind of a weird interpretation.
I actually thought that somebody in the band had been asked about this at some point and they just said something like "yeah, we just overlooked that", but it's entirely possible that I'm completely imagining that.
It's pretty possible they said that actually... my memory fails me though.
I don't really think it's that weird. When you sleep in a room with someone and you're the only one awake, you feel alone. Or perhaps I've trained myself to feel alone that way because all my life I've been unlucky enough to share a room and therefore never feel alone :D
Quote from: Orbert on January 04, 2013, 06:32:57 AM
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o5BsdQuK7VI/TZ_EzHgCurI/AAAAAAAACUs/LWuXyRRHF3Q/s1600/kfc+bucket+of+chicken.gif)
:rollin
Perhaps because he doesn't know fully about Victoria, he doesn't feel complete, he's not fully there and therefore he feels alone... Or as in misunderstood "how can I feel abandoned even when the world surrounds me"
Nah, I'm just an idiot.
Maybe we shouldn't be surprised that there could be something that MIGHT be a plot hole shows up in a "story" written by a bunch of musicians.
Quote from: Orbert on January 04, 2013, 06:32:57 AM
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o5BsdQuK7VI/TZ_EzHgCurI/AAAAAAAACUs/LWuXyRRHF3Q/s1600/kfc+bucket+of+chicken.gif)
And thus we see: KFC+SFAM= Dream Theater Forums.
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 05, 2013, 05:13:23 AM
Maybe we shouldn't be surprised that there could be something that MIGHT be a plot hole shows up in a "story" written by a bunch of musicians.
Well that type of reasoning just doesn't belong in a thread of mindless and silly speculation now, does it?
Quit using your brain, hef! ;)