I personally LOVE the mix on the new album. The tracks really "breathe" and sound so full. What do you guys think?
First time I have been able to clearly hear EVERY band member for quite some time. And to my ears, it doesn't sound as over driven as the last two albums either.
Sounds like hyperbole, but it's my favorite mix since I&W :biggrin:
On my software, I see the very loudest parts(peaks) of tracks hitting at around -10 DBFS. Really not too bad compared to a lot of masters. I think the master retained a good amount of clarity.
I love the mix. It very transparent and the instrument separation is excellent. It's a big and full sound without being fatiguing.
IMHO I would have enjoyed a bit more from the drum tracks, specifically the toms. Someone mentioned it here in another thread, but it's sometimes difficult to hear what MM is doing because of low-mixed toms.
However, It's always a pleasure to hear a newly released album that isn't SMASHED to high heaven. Good on you, DT.
I agree the drums could have had a bit more attack and volume (toms) and I would have made the cymbals have a good amount more high end.
But beyond that I love it.
Production and mixing are a lot better than Black Clouds.
I'd love for them to get into 5.1 mixing...Systematic Chaos is the only one with that, I think.
It's a lot more balanced than any mix in a long time. My only complaint would be the drums feel a bit low. The double bass doesn't have the same punch and overall the drums seem a bit more muted.
Quote from: wolfking on September 14, 2011, 10:39:27 PM
Production and mixing are a lot better than Black Clouds.
I had always enjoyed the mix on Black Clouds but ADTOE is definitely much more balanced and has an overall warmth to the mix not heard in previous albums IMO. There is so much atmosphere and depth in the overall mix.
The mix is very good, and the mastering is a big step up from SC and, to a lesser extent, from BCASL. ADTOE sounds really great to me.
The mastering is fantastic. It's loud, but there's no point where I hear anything lost because of it.
Mixing is a mixed bag to me (no pun intended). BMUBMD has zero bass, and there are a couple of odd spots where the bass is a tad too soft, although overall it's pretty good. Drums are too soft. Bass and snare are perfectly fine, but the cymbals and toms are too soft, and at times rob Mangini of his deserved credit for the crazy stuff he pulls off.
Overall the mix is very good, but it's not one of their best.
Quick question, what's the difference between mixing, mastering, and production?
Quote from: Ħ on September 14, 2011, 11:34:37 PM
Quick question, what's the difference between mixing, mastering, and production?
No way that can be answered as quickly as you asked it....there's tons of times where producing and mixing bleed into each other so it can be confusing.
Maybe some other kind DTF member would be nice enough to break it down ;D
Quote from: Ħ on September 14, 2011, 11:34:37 PM
Quick question, what's the difference between mixing, mastering, and production?
Mixing is the volume of each instrument relative to each other. So if you think the bass sounds too low, or the guitar too loud, that's to do with the mix.
Mastering is the final stage done after the mix. At this stage they take the audio and apply a few tools to make it sound good for CD/vinyl etc. The most discussed part of this process is compression, which makes everything sound louder. This is where the whole loudness war stuff you've probably heard to death comes in.
Production is a general term that covers most things. When I think production, I think the overall sound, such as the drum tone, reverb, effects, etc. It's a fairly vague term though, and not referring to a specific element.
Are the drums low or are we just used to getting our earDRUMS smashed by MP? He's always, or especially later albums, seemed very loud in the mix...
Oh crap, I totally missed this thread. bosk, hef, whoever..... can you close my thread? I agree.... drums are WAY too low....
edit..
Actually, I think the drums sound pretty disappointing. They're muffled and have no punch at all. It's a shame because Mangini is a beast on this album and his playing is totally lost because of the way the drums are mixed. It's like.... they weren't mic'd properly or something. Or, the volume on the tracks needs to come up a little and EQ'd. Something is definitely wrong with them.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 14, 2011, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: Ħ on September 14, 2011, 11:34:37 PM
Quick question, what's the difference between mixing, mastering, and production?
Mixing is the volume of each instrument relative to each other. So if you think the bass sounds too low, or the guitar too loud, that's to do with the mix.
Mastering is the final stage done after the mix. At this stage they take the audio and apply a few tools to make it sound good for CD/vinyl etc. The most discussed part of this process is compression, which makes everything sound louder. This is where the whole loudness war stuff you've probably heard to death comes in.
Production is a general term that covers most things. When I think production, I think the overall sound, such as the drum tone, reverb, effects, etc. It's a fairly vague term though, and not referring to a specific element.
Just to further clarify, mixing is much more than just adjusting amplitude. Mixing, if done by one person, involves tracking (the mic placement, the pre-amp choices, and anything involving the initial recording of the instruments or voice), and mixing (leveling all sonic occurrences appropriately, panning, effects, EQ, compression, and reverb). Mastering is a bit confusing to explain, and requires completely different equipment, specifically monitors (some of which can cost up to 40 grand a pair). A mastering engineer makes small changes that make the music sound consistent on all types of devices. They also act as a second pair of ears that might notice things the mixing engineer didn't. (you become very myopic while mixing, which can lead to mistakes only YOU think sound good.) The levels of the album are usually almost identical to the final levels after mastering. It is not always the mastering engineer's fault. I hope this clarifies some things, and that I don't sound like a dick.
Quote from: nakedman on September 15, 2011, 12:21:08 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 14, 2011, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: Ħ on September 14, 2011, 11:34:37 PM
Quick question, what's the difference between mixing, mastering, and production?
Mixing is the volume of each instrument relative to each other. So if you think the bass sounds too low, or the guitar too loud, that's to do with the mix.
Mastering is the final stage done after the mix. At this stage they take the audio and apply a few tools to make it sound good for CD/vinyl etc. The most discussed part of this process is compression, which makes everything sound louder. This is where the whole loudness war stuff you've probably heard to death comes in.
Production is a general term that covers most things. When I think production, I think the overall sound, such as the drum tone, reverb, effects, etc. It's a fairly vague term though, and not referring to a specific element.
Just to further clarify, mixing is much more than just adjusting amplitude. Mixing, if done by one person, involves tracking (the mic placement, the pre-amp choices, and anything involving the initial recording of the instruments or voice), and mixing (leveling all sonic occurrences appropriately, panning, effects, EQ, compression, and reverb).
A lot of what you described is the engineer (Paul Northfield)'s and JP's (the producer) job. Not the mixer's...the end of your post is accurate, though. I'm not sure what to say about Blob's description of a mixing gig. Really? Wow :lol
Quote from: Adami on September 14, 2011, 09:58:14 PM
I agree the drums could have had a bit more attack and volume (toms) and I would have made the cymbals have a good amount more high end.
But beyond that I love it.
Looks like MM is learning things about his new drums and his sound within Dt all the time, if if the latest interview is anything to go by:
Quote"Also, I'm making a major change in drumheads. I'm switching to Remo clear black dots instead of the pinstripes. I used the pinstripes on the new album and the last tour, but they emanate above the 400K range. I'm learning more about the set, and given the microphones, I don't want that frequency. The clear black dots give me a little bit more of the higher end, but they also give me more of the sustained boom. It's a trade-off, but it's one I think will work.
I don't know if these changes will also apply in the studio but regardless I'm sure he'll be making adjustments along the way. But as I said in before, I'm generally very happy with his sound and his playing but agree that he could be just a tad higher in the mix (and I really mean just a tiny bit). But there's always room for minor improvements with any recording. Overall I like the mix a lot.
Quote from: gm5k on September 15, 2011, 12:38:47 AM
A lot of what you described is the engineer (Paul Northfield)'s and JP's (the producer) job. Not the mixer's...the end of your post is accurate, though. I'm not sure what to say about Blob's description of a mixing gig. Really? Wow :lol
I was simplifying!
Quote from: Rob801 on September 15, 2011, 12:43:49 AM
Quote from: Adami on September 14, 2011, 09:58:14 PM
I agree the drums could have had a bit more attack and volume (toms) and I would have made the cymbals have a good amount more high end.
But beyond that I love it.
Looks like MM is learning things about his new drums and his sound within Dt all the time, if if the latest interview is anything to go by:
Quote"Also, I'm making a major change in drumheads. I'm switching to Remo clear black dots instead of the pinstripes. I used the pinstripes on the new album and the last tour, but they emanate above the 400K range. I'm learning more about the set, and given the microphones, I don't want that frequency. The clear black dots give me a little bit more of the higher end, but they also give me more of the sustained boom. It's a trade-off, but it's one I think will work.
I don't know if these changes will also apply in the studio but regardless I'm sure he'll be making adjustments along the way. But as I said in before, I'm generally very happy with his sound and his playing but agree that he could be just a tad higher in the mix (and I really mean just a tiny bit). But there's always room for minor improvements with any recording. Overall I like the mix a lot.
Really cool info and insight. Thanks! :tup
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 15, 2011, 12:44:36 AM
Quote from: gm5k on September 15, 2011, 12:38:47 AM
A lot of what you described is the engineer (Paul Northfield)'s and JP's (the producer) job. Not the mixer's...the end of your post is accurate, though. I'm not sure what to say about Blob's description of a mixing gig. Really? Wow :lol
I was simplifying!
Alright I do see where you were coming from. Sorry it made me laugh a little though ;D Anyone who's ever gone through the trials and tribulations of mixing a record would have a chuckle about it ;)
I think this mix is one of their best. Nothing about it bothers me and nothing about that mastering bothers me either. It sounds clean of artifacts and over compression distortion.
I also think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the drums sound. It sounds like a mix, where nothing is overpowering the other. The thing that is supposed to be the loudest is when it is necessary. This is the important thing in a mix. It highlights what needs to be highlighted. This goes contrary to the last 2 albums where everything was up front all the time, especially the damn drums.
Quote from: kevinhirsh on September 14, 2011, 08:26:29 PM
I personally LOVE the mix on the new album. The tracks really "breathe" and sound so full. What do you guys think?
I think they should make the Pro Tools files available then everybody could mix the album the way they want to and stop complaining.
I'm by no means an audio expert, but I'm not really happy with the sound of the album. To me, it sounds like all the tracks are constantly too equally mixed, which creates an "everything is mushed together" sound. There are some points where I think the song would benefit if one of the instruments were louder. I felt that with the guitar a lot, where it's playing something extremely important but you have to manually try to focus on it, but then I end up not paying attention to something else, like the vocals. I dunno, it's hard to explain.
Though, I will say that the Ballads sound beautiful.
EDIT: Oh, and the drums are too quiet. [/jumping-on-the-bandwagon]
I don't think the drums should be mixed louder. For me this is the best mix since SFAM.
It MAY be a tiny little bit too loud mastered / too heavy compressed (and maybe that's why sometimes the cymbals get muddy) and seems to clip sometimes, but still it has punch, dynamics AND clarity. I love it.
There is so much less competition between instruments on this album compared to the last 2 that its ridiculous.
I agree that the mix is far superior to the last two albums, and probably back to SFAM. It still somehow feels like each instrument is too wide in the mix. The guitar and keyboards especially tend to get in the way of each other quite a bit. Awake is my favourite mix by far due to all the space each instrument has. It really gives the music some breathing room.
But the ADTOE mix is dynamic, punchy, and crisp. So I don't want to sound too negative about it. And I like the drums sitting in the mix about where they are, although they could use a less compressed attack.
Quote from: tweeg on September 15, 2011, 10:08:32 AM
Awake is my favourite mix by far due to all the space each instrument has. It really gives the music some breathing room.
The mighty Awake really sounds amazingly pristine and transparent, but sometimes a little cold and a little ...barren(?). That perfectly fits to the album's lyrics.
But ADTOE has more complex arrangements. It's more "dense". Mainly because of JR's wizardry... so it's the composition itself that creates the density and thus less "space". There also are more guitar and vocal tracks than on awake. Sometimes it's so "huge" that it's surprising how they still managed to keep the mix transparent.
Quote from: cosmotobe on September 15, 2011, 10:21:21 AM
The mighty Awake really sounds amazingly pristine and transparent, but sometimes a little cold and a little ...barren(?). That perfectly fits to the album's lyrics.
But ADTOE has more complex arrangements. It's more "dense". Mainly because of JR's wizardry... so it's the composition itself that creates the density and thus less "space". There also are more guitar and vocal tracks than on awake. Sometimes it's so "huge" that it's surprising how they still managed to keep the mix transparent.
Total good point. There is just more going on for sure and I really have to commend Andy Wallace and Paul Northfeld (IIRC) for getting it to sound the way it does. I think a bit less lower-mid frequencies in mixing/mastering would have given it a bit more space and sparkle tho.
The only thing that bothers me is that most of the time JLB isn't mixed in the center, but multitracked and moved to the left/right instead. Doesn't sound right to me. But the overall mix is good.
Quote from: Ħ on September 14, 2011, 10:40:29 PM
I'd love for them to get into 5.1 mixing...Systematic Chaos is the only one with that, I think.
I used the fake 5.1 processing on my Pioneer AV receiver and it sounds great.
Quote from: 7StringedBeast on September 15, 2011, 07:57:17 AM
I think this mix is one of their best. Nothing about it bothers me and nothing about that mastering bothers me either. It sounds clean of artifacts and over compression distortion.
I also think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the drums sound. It sounds like a mix, where nothing is overpowering the other. The thing that is supposed to be the loudest is when it is necessary. This is the important thing in a mix. It highlights what needs to be highlighted. This goes contrary to the last 2 albums where everything was up front all the time, especially the damn drums.
There is a large bit of room between the mix of SC and BCSL and that of ADTOE. Just because it's better doesn't mean it's ideal. Yes, it's MUCH better, but the toms and snare could still come up a small amount, and it can easily do that without killing everything, it's not like they found some magical level that if changed the entire mix is trashed. The octobans (whatever pearl calls them) sound great, as do the higher toms, but the lower ones get lost (most due to the heads I assume). Also the cymbals needed more high end, just a bit of it at least. Oh it also sounds like some songs the drums sound much better than on other songs. But it's still their best mix since FII.
I usually name the Mixing and Mastering the SOUND ( of an album).
I'm a bit of audio enthusiastic listener, and this is not record I would pick up to play someone as really good sound.
Ok, it's fine, all instruments are quite good balanced, bass more audible, BUT... it sounds flat, sometimes a bit muddy and misses the aspect of full, reach sound. And drums. ...hm, very weakly recorded, they have no 'body', sometimes no presentation, no spark.
I better don't compare it with sound of previous DT albums, I pick one sound of progressive metal album that etched to my memory as great:
DOMINICI: O3 Trilogy pt 2
I classify the mix as being good if, at most points in a song/album, you can distinctly hear ALL the instruments that are playing without having to make any real effort (i.e. you can clearly and distinctly hear the keyboards, bass, guitar and drums) e.g. Type O Negative satisfied this criterion on almost every album (obviously, no comparison between them and DT :p). For me, ADTOE is the first DT album in a long time which satisfies this.
I love the mix as well. I really liked the sound on Black Clouds, and the overall production and mastering seems to be pretty similar on this new one, but you can definitely hear the difference from getting someone else to mix, and I think Wallace did a fantastic job!
The vinyl version sounds a bit better. But man, in LNF, Mangini's hi hats are way too high in the mix. It sound better than the CD in my opinion.
the producer's job is to oversee the entire project, in larger projects they are usually the ones making decisions such as recording method, who gets to spend the money on what, and musical contributions that can range from something wide like "change the length of this section to make it better" or something as minute as "change that Min7b5 for a full dim7 it will enhance the voice leading" and more often than not on smaller scale projects, doing the mixing and possibly even mastering.
oh and i think the album sounds great. The drums are maybe a bit quiet for my taste but that's all I feel.
I really like the mix on this. The drums could be brought up a single smidgeon more, but you can hear everyone in it, including *GASP* THE BASS.
Quote from: weezul on September 19, 2011, 04:40:05 PM
the producer's job is to oversee the entire project, in larger projects they are usually the ones making decisions such as recording method, who gets to spend the money on what, and musical contributions that can range from something wide like "change the length of this section to make it better" or something as minute as "change that Min7b5 for a full dim7 it will enhance the voice leading" and more often than not on smaller scale projects, doing the mixing and possibly even mastering.
oh and i think the album sounds great. The drums are maybe a bit quiet for my taste but that's all I feel.
Only seen Voice Leading mentioned twice on this forum, and the other one was me :biggrin: Music Theory FTW :tup
the perfectly balanced crispness of adtoe with the balls of train of thought = the perfect mix.
Ok noob here with my first post. DT fan for about 8 years (since TOT) but grew to like their older stuff a whole lot. ADTOE has to be one of the most balanced mixes I've ever heard. Yes the drums are a bit low but that's because we're all used to MP's loud drum tracks. SC had a loud kick drum and BCASL had a loud hi hat which I liked. This mixing is much more balanced and the best way to really enjoy is is with earbuds. You can hear every instrument clearly, even Myung! The snare and cymbals do sound dull sometimes, but overall it's a very balanced mix.
Oh yeah LaBrie's singing is one of the best I've heard from him. He hits some high notes on Beneath the Surface which made me and my gf (new DT fan because of me lol) raise an eyebrow. Plus I sooooo don't miss MP's dumb growls (which ruined BCASL's a Night to Remember IMO).