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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: reo73 on June 30, 2011, 08:06:14 AM
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Someone posted this in the sticky thread but I thought it was worth it's own topic. If you listen thru all the parts of OtBoA it follows the identical song form of PMU down to all the little pre-verse, pre-chorus, and pre-solo fills plus all the outro sections. Personally, if this was a planned thing and I tend to think it is, I find it really cool! Kinda like a new beginning that is mirroring their beginning of success in '92.
EDIT: To make my point a bit more apparent here is the structure of both with time stamp written out. PMU is first and OtBoA is next:
Guitar Intro: :0 / :15
Intro w/Keys: :19 / 1:00
Intro w.Heavy Guitar: :57 / 1:28
Main Riff: 1:16 / 1:55
Main Riff w/Keys: 1:34 / 2:09
Pre Verse Transition: 1:53 / 2:23
Verse 1: 2:00 / 2:31
Verse Bridge: 2:19 / 2:45
Transition Riff: 2:39 / 2:59
Verse 2: 2:56 / 3:14
Verse Bridge: 3:15 / 3:29
Pre Chorus Music: 3:33 / 3:42
Chorus: 3:44 / 3:55
Transition Riff: 4:03 / 4:23
Verse 3: 4:13 / 4:36
Verse Bridge: 4:30 / 4:50
Pre Chorus Music: 4:50 / 5:04
Chorus: 5:09 / 5:24
Keyboard Interlude (Music Low): 5:28 / 5:52
Key Interlude w/Drums: 5:47 / 6:05
Guitar Solo (Music Up): 6:06 / 6:19
Solo Outro: 6:24 / 6:47
Chorus: 6:33 / 6:57
Chorus w/alt riff: 6:53 / 7:25
Outro Riff: 7:12 / 7:39
Outro Riff w/Keys: 7:30 / 8:07
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Also, if you listen closely, both songs feature John Myung.
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I can see this album doing absolute wonders for them commercially. With another song like PMU that's relatively heavy for the roadrunner crowd, everybody wins.
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I can definitely hear me some PMU, especially the guitar part before the chorus, but even if they did plan it that way, it's still unoriginal. I still like the song though.
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thread like this keeps me close to DTF.
what an observation!
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If you listen thru all the parts of OtBoA it follows the identical song form of PMU down to all the little pre-verse, pre-chorus, and pre-solo fills plus all the outro sections.
In very general terms, yes. But that description is so broad that the "similarity" doesn't really carry much meaning as far as I'm concerned.
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If you listen thru all the parts of OtBoA it follows the identical song form of PMU down to all the little pre-verse, pre-chorus, and pre-solo fills plus all the outro sections.
In very general terms, yes. But that description is so broad that the "similarity" doesn't really carry much meaning as far as I'm concerned.
I thought that at first but give the song a listen and think of PMU the whole way thru while you are listening to it. It really is a replica down to all the the little intros and outros of each section just set to different music. I'm not knocking it, I think it is completely intentional and a cool reference to PMU. Whether there is any deep meaning to it, we can only speculate though i think it is interesting that the phrase "On the Backs Of Angels" is somewhat of an opposite connotation from "Pull me Under". Maybe there is some real meaning there.
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In related news, I'm thinking about reinstating the Octavarium subforum, but renaming it "Nuggets and Tinfoil Hats."
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Well, now we know why OTBOA is such a great song - it has the exact same structure as Pull me under. That's just great. :metal
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In related news, I'm thinking about reinstating the Octavarium subforum, but renaming it "Nuggets and Tinfoil Hats."
(https://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5517/bartsimpsonparanoid.jpg)
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In related news, I'm thinking about reinstating the Octavarium subforum, but renaming it "Nuggets and Tinfoil Hats."
You're opening the gates of hell once again.
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Structure wise: Similar
Sound wise: completely different worlds
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To make my point a bit more apparent here is the structure of both with time stamp written out. PMU is first and OtBoA is next:
Guitar Intro: :0 / :15
Intro w/Keys: :19 / 1:00
Intro w.Heavy Guitar: :57 / 1:28
Main Riff: 1:16 / 1:55
Main Riff w/Keys: 1:34 / 2:09
Pre Verse Transition: 1:53 / 2:23
Verse 1: 2:00 / 2:31
Verse Bridge: 2:19 / 2:45
Transition Riff: 2:39 / 2:59
Verse 2: 2:56 / 3:14
Verse Bridge: 3:15 / 3:29
Pre Chorus Music: 3:33 / 3:42
Chorus: 3:44 / 3:55
Transition Riff: 4:03 / 4:23
Verse 3: 4:13 / 4:36
Verse Bridge: 4:30 / 4:50
Pre Chorus Music: 4:50 / 5:04
Chorus: 5:09 / 5:24
Keyboard Interlude (Music Low): 5:28 / 5:52
Key Interlude w/Drums: 5:47 / 6:05
Guitar Solo (Music Up): 6:06 / 6:19
Solo Outro: 6:24 / 6:47
Chorus: 6:33 / 6:57
Chorus w/alt riff: 6:53 / 7:25
Outro Riff: 7:12 / 7:39
Outro Riff w/Keys: 7:30 / 8:07
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If you listen thru all the parts of OtBoA it follows the identical song form of PMU down to all the little pre-verse, pre-chorus, and pre-solo fills plus all the outro sections.
In very general terms, yes. But that description is so broad that the "similarity" doesn't really carry much meaning as far as I'm concerned.
That's what I was thinking.
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I don't hear much similarity between these two songs.
Even if the intros are of similar length, they are completely different. While the new songs goes through various changes, most of the Pull Me Under intro is built around the main guitar lead, just building and building, before breaking into the heavy riff that leads into the first verse.
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I thought the whole vibe of the song felt a little bit like a modern day Pull Me Under. Structure included, but even the tone of it, and the style of song itself.
I don't know about doing well commercially though. I mean, the mainstream music community is in a pretty pathetic state right now, so it's definitely not gonna be another "Hit" like PMU, but the extra attention they got with the whole MP ordeal and looking for the new drummer, this album should do well in terms of the kinds of sales they usually make.
Of course, it's always possible I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But I wouldn't expect to hear it on the radio, at least not around here.
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I don't hear much similarity between these two songs.
Even if the intros are of similar length, they are completely different. While the new songs goes through various changes, most of the Pull Me Under intro is built around the main guitar lead, just building and building, before breaking into the heavy riff that leads into the first verse.
I'm not saying the music 'sounds' similar, what I am saying is the structure or form of the song is an identical replica. Maybe it's just me but I find it too coincidental to be a happening of chance and I think there was an intentional reference in this regard to PMU and it's really cool. Perhaps no one really cares though; thought this would generate much more interest.
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This thread... :facepalm: ::)
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^ It's a reasonable observation...
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When you've written so many tunes over the years, you are bound to get elements of similarity.........it's just coincidence. I can't see they guys all sitting round in the dead of night discussing how to make PMU pt 2.....it's not their style.......
It's not Bon Jovi where every song on every album is repeated ad-nauseum! Lol
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When you've written so many tunes over the years, you are bound to get elements of similarity.........it's just coincidence. I can't see they guys all sitting round in the dead of night discussing how to make PMU pt 2.....it's not their style.......
It's not Bon Jovi where every song on every album is repeated ad-nauseum! Lol
Yeah, but that's his life.
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When you've written so many tunes over the years, you are bound to get elements of similarity.........it's just coincidence. I can't see they guys all sitting round in the dead of night discussing how to make PMU pt 2.....it's not their style.......
It's not Bon Jovi where every song on every album is repeated ad-nauseum! Lol
I disagree. The PMU song structure has too many elements for it to be a chance happening and this new song replicates it EXACTLY down to all the little fills between verses and choruses. I don't see that as coincidental.
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Both PMU and OtBoA have the key signatures of E minor and A minor
PMU
A minor in chorus only
E minor for everything else
OtBoA
A minor for chorus and other half of instrumental section
E minor for everything else
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When you've written so many tunes over the years, you are bound to get elements of similarity.........it's just coincidence. I can't see they guys all sitting round in the dead of night discussing how to make PMU pt 2.....it's not their style.......
It's not Bon Jovi where every song on every album is repeated ad-nauseum! Lol
Yeah, but that's his life.
*giggles*
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Yes, but the giggles--they do nothing.
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I just don't hear it, the similarities.
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I agree; I feel like it's like they wrote OtBoA with PMU in mind, following the exact structure. But still, great song!
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In related news, I'm thinking about reinstating the Octavarium subforum, but renaming it "Nuggets and Tinfoil Hats."
I'm only in favour of it if you're able to make it disappear from the front page of the forum.
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When you've written so many tunes over the years, you are bound to get elements of similarity.........it's just coincidence. I can't see they guys all sitting round in the dead of night discussing how to make PMU pt 2.....it's not their style.......
It's not Bon Jovi where every song on every album is repeated ad-nauseum! Lol
I disagree. The PMU song structure has too many elements for it to be a chance happening and this new song replicates it EXACTLY down to all the little fills between verses and choruses. I don't see that as coincidental.
Exactly? Really? I am pretty sure On the Backs of Angels does not cut off suddenly. :P :lol
If you want to think they did apparently did this on purpose, then that is your right, but it is also our right to think that you are out of your mind for thinking so. :biggrin:
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I found the last 2 measures of the song sound very similiar to the last couple measures of Sacrificed Sons
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No, guys, in all seriousness Reo's right. He's not some unseasoned poster with a weird theory. The structures of OTBOA and PMU are eerily similar. The choruses even have guitar leads before them in both songs.
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No, guys, in all seriousness Reo's right. He's not some unseasoned poster with a weird theory. The structures of OTBOA and PMU are eerily similar. The choruses even have guitar leads before them in both songs.
So, there are structure and key similarities. They sound like 2 completely different tunes to me. So much so I'm not even seeing the connection others are. So if a basic rock band does multiple songs in 2/4 and the same key.....does that make them the same songs? I admit... with a band like DT, who change tempos so often within a song, it's more peculiar to have two so closely structured.
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No, guys, in all seriousness Reo's right. He's not some unseasoned poster with a weird theory. The structures of OTBOA and PMU are eerily similar. The choruses even have guitar leads before them in both songs.
So, there are structure and key similarities. They sound like 2 completely different tunes to me. So much so I'm not even seeing the connection others are. So if a basic rock band does multiple songs in 2/4 and the same key.....does that make them the same songs? I admit... with a band like DT, who change tempos so often within a song, it's more peculiar to have two so closely structured.
Pretty much.
Honestly, even if Petrucci just came out and said they copied the structure of Pull Me Under, I'd be like "hey, everyone loved OTBOA, smart move Mr. Petrucci." It's the not knowing that's weird. And if it was coincidental, then I don't know what to think of that weirdness.
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Yeah, this is what I noticed during my first listening. Both songs are very similar structure-wise. But musically, I think OTBOA is way heavier and different, although some riffs also remind me of PMU.
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I'm going to have to go back tomorrow and listen to PMU again (one of my least fav. DT tunes) As far as I can remember, it has nowhere NEAR the pronounced keyboards or all over the place drumming that OTBoA's has. I could be very well wrong though ;D
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I'm going to have to go back tomorrow and listen to PMU again (one of my least fav. DT tunes) As far as I can remember, it has nowhere NEAR the pronounced keyboards or all over the place drumming that OTBoA's has. I could be very well wrong though ;D
I think the keyboards on PMU are a lot more audible on the Remastered version that's on the Greatest Hit CD.
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I'm going to have to go back tomorrow and listen to PMU again (one of my least fav. DT tunes) As far as I can remember, it has nowhere NEAR the pronounced keyboards or all over the place drumming that OTBoA's has. I could be very well wrong though ;D
I think the keyboards on PMU are a lot more audible on the Remastered version that's on the Greatest Hit CD.
The only studio version I have is the original, I'm racking my brain going thru the live versions, and I just can't remember that dramatic of a keyboard effort...comparatively.
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No, guys, in all seriousness Reo's right. He's not some unseasoned poster with a weird theory. The structures of OTBOA and PMU are eerily similar. The choruses even have guitar leads before them in both songs.
So, there are structure and key similarities. They sound like 2 completely different tunes to me.
That's kinda Reo's whole point.
I'm not saying the music 'sounds' similar, what I am saying is the structure or form of the song is an identical replica.
I don't think anyone here is saying they SOUND identical.
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(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Vgv1ZrLIwWg/S8L2AMU1PTI/AAAAAAAACfU/HZUjhiIMeqc/s400/south-park-stan-marsh-200.jpg)
REALLY???
Props to those who know the episode referenced.
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Even if the song structures are identical, big deal. Tons of bands do it. I can't count how many Rush songs (or a lot of songs in general) have the structure of Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Instrumental break, Verse, Chorus. None of them sound the same just because the structure is similar.
Yes the structure outlined is more complicated than that, but I bet you could find other songs in the DT catalog that are the same. I would honestly be surprised if there wasn't one at this point.
I don't see DT trying to "recapture the magic of PMU". And even if they wanted to do that, it wasn't the STRUCTURE of the song that created the magic. It was the riffs and catchyness of the song. Not to mention the single version of PMU had a much different structure anyway. If they were to release a truncated version of OtBoA that had the identical structure to PMU I would say you are on to something. Otherwise I just don't see that being what is going on here.
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They have gone roughly 20 years and this is the first time they have 2 songs with such a similar song structure.
That's quite a feat in todays deluge of "Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus" only bands.
FUCK YEAH DREAM THEATER
(https://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l6hvjlsqFO1qctt98o1_400.jpg)
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Even if the song structures are identical, big deal. Tons of bands do it. I can't count how many Rush songs (or a lot of songs in general) have the structure of Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Instrumental break, Verse, Chorus. None of them sound the same just because the structure is similar.
Yes the structure outlined is more complicated than that, but I bet you could find other songs in the DT catalog that are the same. I would honestly be surprised if there wasn't one at this point.
I don't see DT trying to "recapture the magic of PMU". And even if they wanted to do that, it wasn't the STRUCTURE of the song that created the magic. It was the riffs and catchyness of the song. Not to mention the single version of PMU had a much different structure anyway. If they were to release a truncated version of OtBoA that had the identical structure to PMU I would say you are on to something. Otherwise I just don't see that being what is going on here.
Tons of bands are not DT and DT doesn't write much music that follow a basic form. Even when they do they throw a lot of other stuff in. I am willing to bet there are no other songs in their catalog that follow the same form which is why this stands out so much to me. Not only does it follow the same form but the instrumentation is in the same places. Sure there are nuances that are different...not everything is following the same number of measures (but may be close) and of course the music is completely different...but at this point I have to think it was an intentional move on their part and one that I think is a very cool gimmick if you want to call it that. If others think it's purely coincidental and don't care then that's fine too.
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In related news, I'm thinking about reinstating the Octavarium subforum, but renaming it "Nuggets and Tinfoil Hats."
I'm only in favour of it if you're able to make it disappear from the front page of the forum.
No, but I CAN make it permanetly have the Friday theme.
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They have gone roughly 20 years and this is the first time they have 2 songs with such a similar song structure.
Not really.
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While I can't say I noticed their song structures being similar, I did instantly think of PMU the first time I heard the pre-chorus guitar run.
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Also, if you listen closely, both songs feature John Myung.
Haha, I see what you did there.
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When you've written so many tunes over the years, you are bound to get elements of similarity.........it's just coincidence. I can't see they guys all sitting round in the dead of night discussing how to make PMU pt 2.....it's not their style.......
It's not Bon Jovi where every song on every album is repeated ad-nauseum! Lol
I disagree. The PMU song structure has too many elements for it to be a chance happening and this new song replicates it EXACTLY down to all the little fills between verses and choruses. I don't see that as coincidental.
Whatever.......if you believe that...great - you must have a lot of time to waste comparing two songs under a microscope...........however, I can't imagine them all sitting in the rehearsal saying 'Damn, we need to replicate that massive worldwide minor-hit we had nearly 20 years ago in the US 'cause these days all the cash is in single sales!!!!!!!'
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When you've written so many tunes over the years, you are bound to get elements of similarity.........it's just coincidence. I can't see they guys all sitting round in the dead of night discussing how to make PMU pt 2.....it's not their style.......
It's not Bon Jovi where every song on every album is repeated ad-nauseum! Lol
I disagree. The PMU song structure has too many elements for it to be a chance happening and this new song replicates it EXACTLY down to all the little fills between verses and choruses. I don't see that as coincidental.
Whatever.......if you believe that...great - you must have a lot of time to waste comparing two songs under a microscope...........however, I can't imagine them all sitting in the rehearsal saying 'Damn, we need to replicate that massive worldwide minor-hit we had nearly 20 years ago in the US 'cause these days all the cash is in single sales!!!!!!!'
You completely miss the point of this thread.
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I feel for you, reo. I'm not really musically astute enough to analyze the structures and give any decent comment, but I think I understand what you're talking about and why it's being so misinterpreted.
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wtf i was thinking this earlier
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I feel for you, reo. I'm not really musically astute enough to analyze the structures and give any decent comment, but I think I understand what you're talking about and why it's being so misinterpreted.
Yeah, I feel this is going over some peoples head. Maybe it's the musician in me that I am so intrigued by this. But people are somehow misinterpreting this as me saying they are trying to write the next big hit by copying PMU. I am not saying that at all. All I am doing is pointing out that the song forms are identical in their parts...not the music, not the theme, or the feel...just the form. And IN MY OPINION I think it was intentional and I think it is kind cool as well.
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This can't really be the next PMU commercial wise, the chorus isn't hooky enough.
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:|
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They have gone roughly 20 years and this is the first time they have 2 songs with such a similar song structure.
Not really.
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OK...because I'm a glutton for punishment let me write this out in layman's terms:
Both songs follow this EXACT same pattern:
- The song starts with a cleanish type guitar picking out chords.
- After a bit some drum toms and keyboards enter over the guitar playing
- This portion builds and then a dramatic heavy guitar and keys comes in over the same progression
- After this bit a heavy guitar riff enters and then after the riff is played thru a few times a keyboard solo comes in over top
- This riff ends in a heavy staccato bit before the first verse
- First verse comes in with heavy guitar and segues into a verse/bridge portion..."We Spiral..."
- Verse/bridge portion ends and there is an instrumental transition with a heavy guitar riff and keys
- Second verse and verse/bridge next
- There is a guitar single note line segueing into the chorus
- Enter Chorus
- After chorus is a main guitar riff seguing into the 3rd verse with an alternate heavy guitar riff and into the same verse/bridge.
- Another guitar single note line seguing into the chorus
- Chorus again
- After this chorus the music dies into a mellow instrumental section and after a few bars drums come in with a mellow beat
- This builds a little and the music kicks into a more steady beat with a guitar solo over it.
- The guitar segues into a single note line that transitions the music back into the final chorus
- The final chorus is played thru once with the normal riff and once with an alternate riff
- Music outros after chorus into a heavy guitar riff that after played a few times alters a bit with keys over top.
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Well said.
Now, inb4 someone else says "I just don't hear it."
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Definitely noticed the similar song structure and I really dig it. So excited for this release!
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OP, you are spot on. Excellent, excellent analysis done a few posts above mine. Accurate, in-depth, and just a great point. Those who are continuing to act as if this point is stupid and ungrounded, you must not understand his point.
Structure and sound/feel are totally different. A metal band and a country artist can compose songs with identical song structures, but no one would confuse the two.
And I don't recall the OP saying that there was a PURPOSE or even offering an explanation for why they did this. So don't think they did this to get another radio hit - AROP was a better attempt at that.
Also, the similarities almost cannot be coincidence. The odds are astronomically against that.
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Reo, stop being contrary to everyone who disagrees with you. Yes, the songs share an identical structure as you have arbitrarily defined the song structure. You want to believe that was intentional, fine. Other people want to point out that plenty of other songs share the same structure, fine. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing and then saying anyone who disagrees "just doesn't get it." That's extremely annoying.
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Reo, stop being contrary to everyone who disagrees with you. Yes, the songs share an identical structure as you have arbitrarily defined the song structure. You want to believe that was intentional, fine. Other people want to point out that plenty of other songs share the same structure, fine. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing and then saying anyone who disagrees "just doesn't get it." That's extremely annoying.
Just for the record, I personally find it more annoying that people keep saying they don't 'hear the similarity' after he continually expresses that it's not sound he's talking about. Yes, he's being repetitive, but a lot of posts here really do seem to have completely missed his point, so I don't blame him for thinking he needs to clarify...
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Reo, stop being contrary to everyone who disagrees with you. Yes, the songs share an identical structure as you have arbitrarily defined the song structure. You want to believe that was intentional, fine. Other people want to point out that plenty of other songs share the same structure, fine. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing and then saying anyone who disagrees "just doesn't get it." That's extremely annoying.
Yeah but they have no idea what they're talking about, can't name a song that is also similar, and refuse to back up their point with any evidence. He has made it explicitly clear the structure he is referring to, and no one has done anything but say "that's not unique to those two songs," and then stop there. That's irritating to me, and I'm not even the one who started the topic. The OP is the least annoying in this thread to me. Just my opinion.
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Reo, stop being contrary to everyone who disagrees with you. Yes, the songs share an identical structure as you have arbitrarily defined the song structure. You want to believe that was intentional, fine. Other people want to point out that plenty of other songs share the same structure, fine. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing and then saying anyone who disagrees "just doesn't get it." That's extremely annoying.
:facepalm: Not sure this is warranted, but whatever. I give up on this topic, made my point and now it's played.
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Reo, stop being contrary to everyone who disagrees with you. Yes, the songs share an identical structure as you have arbitrarily defined the song structure. You want to believe that was intentional, fine. Other people want to point out that plenty of other songs share the same structure, fine. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing and then saying anyone who disagrees "just doesn't get it." That's extremely annoying.
:facepalm: Not sure this is warranted, but whatever. I give up on this topic, made my point and now it's played.
Your point was greatly appreciated. Best thread I've seen in a while. Thank you for your comments - I'm impressed. It is so much better when you know what "song structure" means. :-)
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I know exactly what you mean reo, some of these posts are driving me crazy. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
I went through both songs and listened to each of the sections you mentioned and there is no doubt the structure is very similar, if not identical. Very interesting find and one that I believe to be intentional. Possibly a way to show the fans that they are attempting to return to the I&W feel. They don't sound similar (or maybe they do), but they are most definitely structured the same. Anyone who disagrees really just doesn't get it. I believe this is a fact. Two different songs, with similar structure. That is the point of this thread.
Also, I don't see why the mods are jumping all over reo, he continued to reinstate his original thoughts because others seemed to be off topic, he wanted to make sure they knew exactly what he meant. Someone finally makes a new interesting and original thread relating to DT's music and these are the responses we get? Come DTF we can do better than this.
Reo, stop being contrary to everyone who disagrees with you. Yes, the songs share an identical structure as you have arbitrarily defined the song structure. You want to believe that was intentional, fine. Other people want to point out that plenty of other songs share the same structure, fine. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing and then saying anyone who disagrees "just doesn't get it." That's extremely annoying.
Yeah but they have no idea what they're talking about, can't name a song that is also similar, and refuse to back up their point with any evidence. He has made it explicitly clear the structure he is referring to, and no one has done anything but say "that's not unique to those two songs," and then stop there. That's irritating to me, and I'm not even the one who started the topic. The OP is the least annoying in this thread to me. Just my opinion.
Exactly how I feel.
Thank you reo, and others who shared their opinions on the actual topic.
*Edited a bunch of things*
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Thanks a lot Reo for the detailed analysis! I'm in line with Jaffa, ubit and others who appreciate your posts.
The level of allergy against analysing DT's songs and searching for similarities and references is apparently still on a disease level since Octavarium. They'll recover, eventually. :-)
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This symmetry between OtBoA and PmU was probably the first thing I noticed while I was listening to the new song.