Poll
Question:
During which period did DT release their last true "Masterpiece" ?
Option 1: 6DOIT and before
votes: 85
Option 2: TOT and afterward
votes: 79
Poll stemming from a conversation between myself, SDN, and some others here about the amount of posters nominating TOT in their "best of" lists for 2003:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=22071.msg846093#msg846093
Do you think DT's last truly "classic" or "masterpiece" album was 6DOIT (or something earlier), or do you feel like at least one album (or more) since the release of TOT has matched the greatness of the "early" DT period? I know not everyone will agree with the dividing line between "early" and "later" being placed between 6DOIT and TOT, but there seems to be at least some broad agreement about that distinction. Please feel free to say so, however, if you disagree. So yeah -- everybody go ahead and vote and discuss.
I'm probably one of the only guys who'd call SC a masterpiece
Quote from: LieLowTheWantedMan on April 14, 2011, 08:16:53 PM
I'm probably one of the only guys who'd call SC a masterpiece
I'm not quite there, but it's close. Still, 10 albums; 9 masterpieces or near-masterpieces (and WDADU is excusable). That ain't a bad track record.
Quote from: bösk1 on April 14, 2011, 08:20:07 PM
Quote from: LieLowTheWantedMan on April 14, 2011, 08:16:53 PM
I'm probably one of the only guys who'd call SC a masterpiece
I'm not quite there, but it's close. Still, 10 albums; 9 masterpieces or near-masterpieces (and WDADU is excusable). That ain't a bad track record.
I certainly wouldn't call SC a masterpiece, but I think it's a good record. TOT and 8VM, though, are in the upper echelon of my DT album rankings (thus my vote for option 2).
Option 2 because of Octavarium.
SDOIT was their last great album.
My name is not Space Dye Vest goddammit.
And since 6DoiT is my second favorite DT album behind I&W I guess I fall in the first camp, though I do like Octavarium and Black Clouds a lot.
1 Awake
2 Images and Words
3 Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4 Black Clouds & Silver Linings
5 Scenes from a Memory
6 Train of Thought
7 When Dream and Day Unite
8 Systematic Chaos
9 Octavarium
10 Falling into Infinity
So yeah, 2009 I guess.
Quote from: skydivingninja on April 14, 2011, 08:40:02 PM
My name is not Space Dye Vest goddammit.
Damn, skydivingninj'd. I just caught that and corrected it. :lol
I would say their last truely spectacular album, end to end, was probably Scenes From a Memory. It's their most recent record where every song just fits, and works, and is great. Each album they've done since has had at least one or two clunkers. Still strong records overall, but a masterpiece album, to me, should have no songs that are significantly weaker than the rest, and I think Scenes was the last time they did that.
IMO, I&W and Awake are their only real "masterpieces". FII, SDOIT, WDADU, and I suppose SFAM are very good albums. The rest are average/mediocre. DT haven't put out an album I'd label as outright "bad".
Quote from: bösk1 on April 14, 2011, 08:20:07 PM
Quote from: LieLowTheWantedMan on April 14, 2011, 08:16:53 PM
I'm probably one of the only guys who'd call SC a masterpiece
I'm not quite there, but it's close. Still, 10 albums; 9 masterpieces or near-masterpieces (and WDADU is excusable). That ain't a bad track record.
Sorry, but calling 9/10 DT albums masterpieces is just robbing the word of any discernible meaning.
-J
Quote from: j on April 14, 2011, 08:54:21 PMSorry, but calling 9/10 DT albums masterpieces is just robbing the word of any discernible meaning.
-J
Sorry, but no.
When I think DT masterpeice, I don't think 9 albums. to me, a masterpeice is a very uncommon thing that sticks out due to uncontested greatness. Granted, everyone's idea of what a masterpeice is, is different, so you have to incorporate somewhat the general consensus. for example.
ACOS
6 degrees (the song)
what i mean to say is that while you might not "like" those songs, they are undoubtly some of Dream theater;s best work. So, do i think that dream theater have produced anything comparable to those two since six degrees? in my opinion, no. That's not what to say what they have produced since then isn't awesome, because most of it is awesome.
Quote from: LieLowTheWantedMan on April 14, 2011, 08:16:53 PM
I'm probably one of the only guys who'd call SC a masterpiece
If it weren't for some of the lyrics and the production value (although I love the punch the drums have) I would absolutely love Systematic Chaos. It's just a plain fun album
Voted second option for BC&SL, Octavarium, and ToT.
Quote from: bösk1 on April 14, 2011, 08:56:11 PM
Quote from: j on April 14, 2011, 08:54:21 PMSorry, but calling 9/10 DT albums masterpieces is just robbing the word of any discernible meaning.
-J
Sorry, but no.
Yes huh.
-J
Quote from: SeventhSon on April 14, 2011, 08:52:04 PM
I would say their last truely spectacular album, end to end, was probably Scenes From a Memory. It's their most recent record where every song just fits, and works, and is great. Each album they've done since has had at least one or two clunkers. Still strong records overall, but a masterpiece album, to me, should have no songs that are significantly weaker than the rest, and I think Scenes was the last time they did that.
That's an interesting perspective in that (while I personally rank SFAM much lower than most people) it is arguable that they had a certain "sound," or perhaps "focus" would be a better word, which came to fruition with SFAM that has not really materialized since. Also, you could describe the move towards "balls-n-chunk" with TGP as being the beginning of so-called "recent" or "new" Dream Theater.
Also, :lol @ the absurdity of calling a 2002 or 2003 (depending on your perspective) album "new" Dream Theater, even if I totally understand the usefulness of the "old" and "new" categories in reference to DT's material.
does it have to be an album? or does a song qualify as well?
I also consider a 'masterpiece' album to, as part of its status as such, to be indicative of the band at its best, and showing off different aspects of the band's sound, as they may be. Scenes From a Memory has heavy stuff, soft stuff, straightforward stuff (by Dream Theater standards anyhow) and some of the most over-the-top instrumental pyrotechnics the band's ever produced. To me, it's everything Dream Theater is about; light and shade, subtly and bombasticity.
Quote from: ricky on April 14, 2011, 09:11:36 PM
does it have to be an album? or does a song qualify as well?
Well, the original discussion was about albums, and I think that is a more interesting question, since it's much easier for a fan primarily into "old" DT to perhaps equate one song -- let's say 8VM (the song) -- with ACOS than it is to say that 8VM the album rivals
Awake or whatever.
Quote from: contest_sanity on April 14, 2011, 09:16:16 PM
Quote from: ricky on April 14, 2011, 09:11:36 PM
does it have to be an album? or does a song qualify as well?
Well, the original discussion was about albums, and I think that is a more interesting question, since it's much easier to equate, say, 8VM (the song) with ACOS than it is to say that 8VM the album rivals Awake or whatever.
maybe awake. in my opinion though, the whole of 8v doesn't match ACOS the song.
Their last masterpeice eitherway, though, wes 6 degrees. *insert politicallly correct* in my opinion *end*.
Hell... I don't even know what a "masterpiece" is, so I'll just say that their last 4.5 (out of five) was 6DOIT and before.
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on April 14, 2011, 09:28:26 PM
Hell... I don't even know what a "masterpiece" is, so I'll just say that their last 4.5 (out of five) was 6DOIT and before.
That's as good a definition as any. I agree "masterpiece" is a very subjective term, but I didn't know how else to really word it. I guess you could also go with thumbs up or down and say they haven't had a great album since Siskel was still alive.
Six Degrees and earlier. I just can't take any of their "masterpieces" seriously anymore. They seem to have gotten better at writing shorter, standalone songs, but their epics have become goofier and goofier.
I consider 8VM the last masterpiece (seriously, it is a true work of art with its themes and music). SC was sort of a dud for me, with some cool stuff, and BC&SL was a sweeping return to great form. But BC&SL was just that (I still love that album to death), not a masterpiece. Just a very great album. ToT isn't a masterpiece for the same reason, but I still love that album as well.
Quote from: Jamesman on April 14, 2011, 10:05:45 PM
I consider 8VM the last masterpiece (seriously, it is a true work of art with its themes and music).
you know what the strange thing is? while i intensley dislike 8v on a personal opinion level, i sort of agree with you. maybe i just haven't understood the "logic" behind the album yet.
jamesman <3. only you could make me admire an album i don't like.
SC was a masterpiece, for sure. Octavarium held a masterpiece track.
Quote from: Aniland on April 14, 2011, 11:01:41 PM
SC was a masterpiece, for sure. Octavarium held a masterpiece track.
the thing about 8v is you have to look at it as a whole. if you think 8v "the track" was great, understanding how it fit within the complex of the album will make you appreciate it even more.
ToT and after, because of Octavarium (the song).
album wise, the earlier, but the song Octavarium is a true masterpiece.
Octavrium and Black Clouds both were classic albums.
8VM had its epic concept and BL had the best music I've heard from DT since Scenes.
LOL, equal :) I think that TOT was one the most badass albums that DT ever will release, great sound and epic compositions, it's surely masterpiece. Octavarium, great concept, maybe sometimes too sweety ;) but very solid album. Systematic, has some masterpiece moments. Black Clouds is a masterpiece. For sure the best album from DT since 6DOIT.
8vm was decent except for title track
BCSL was a great album, but not a masterpiece.
TOT and SC are definitely not masterpieces imo. So definitely SDOIT and before
What ya talkin bout willis?
8VM's title track being the weakpoint....hahaha ok. You understand the point of the album, right?
I don't recall any1 in this thread calling 8vm the song the weakpoint of the album....
Ah. I get ya. Read it in a different tone. Either way that's why I love the album, it goes from the key of F up the scale back to F. That in itself is badass
There are only two Dream Theater albums that I'd call masterpieces: Scenes from a memory and Images & Words. An album has to be absolutely mindblowing from start to finish without a single slightly weaker song to be a masterpiece, so obviously Awake, Systematic chaos and Six degrees can't be masterpieces in my opinion, even though they're still incredible albums.
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 15, 2011, 12:27:27 AM
Ah. I get ya. Read it in a different tone. Either way that's why I love the album, it goes from the key of F up the scale back to F. That in itself is badass
+ who are you calling willis? wut is that all abt :lol
Sorry man, a bit tipsy. Its just epic as fuck, with the concept and all that fun.
Quote from: jsem on April 15, 2011, 12:35:31 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 15, 2011, 12:27:27 AM
Ah. I get ya. Read it in a different tone. Either way that's why I love the album, it goes from the key of F up the scale back to F. That in itself is badass
+ who are you calling willis? wut is that all abt :lol
If you're being serious, Gary Coleman's catch phrase on Different Strokes?
If not, :neverusethis:.
-J
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on April 14, 2011, 09:28:26 PM
Hell... I don't even know what a "masterpiece" is, so I'll just say that their last 4.5 (out of five) was 6DOIT and before.
If we're talking 4.5 star albums then I'm in the option 2 camp, because of BC&SL, DT's third best album.
Train of Thought was their last in my opinion.
It does seem a bit churlish, because every album DT have made has been brilliant and head and shoulders above most other rock music out there today, but if I'm being ultra-critical, SFAM was their last true masterpiece.
Yes, 6DOIT is great, 8VM is close, and every album since has had something about it, but...
...there does seem to be something missing these days that the earlier albums had.
So after 43 replies, it's 28 vs 27 in favor of option 1. Neck and neck, essentially. This makes me wonder if such sentiment is new -- since both TOT and SC seemed quite reviled when they came out, at least by one heavily vocal segment of DT fans. While I didn't agree with the dislike those albums got, it certainly seemed like SDN had it right at least for a few years there. So have the post-Six Degrees albums actually been better-loved the whole time? Or is it a case of aging well? I know in at least some cases hearing the TOT songs live in person and on LaB made people feel differently about them. What do you guys think?
Quote from: bösk1 on April 14, 2011, 08:56:11 PM
Quote from: j on April 14, 2011, 08:54:21 PMSorry, but calling 9/10 DT albums masterpieces is just robbing the word of any discernible meaning.
-J
Sorry, but no.
I think DT has made three masterpieces so far when it comes to albums (Images & Words, SFAM, Six Degrees) and the rest is ranging from bloody great to really good.
So my answer is "6DOIT and before".
Quote from: ricky on April 14, 2011, 10:59:28 PM
Quote from: Jamesman on April 14, 2011, 10:05:45 PM
I consider 8VM the last masterpiece (seriously, it is a true work of art with its themes and music).
you know what the strange thing is? while i intensley dislike 8v on a personal opinion level, i sort of agree with you. maybe i just haven't understood the "logic" behind the album yet.
jamesman <3. only you could make me admire an album i don't like.
That's because I make you take it like the whore that you are.
If Masterpiece is reserved only for their best, then Train Of Thought. Images And Words, Six Degrees and Train Of Thought are their greatest albums so they would be the masterpieces. However I do kind of agree that nearly all the DT albums could be called masterpieces, and Black Clouds and Silver Linings is certainly in their top half.
Quote from: contest_sanity on April 15, 2011, 03:13:27 AM
So after 43 replies, it's 28 vs 27 in favor of option 1. Neck and neck, essentially. This makes me wonder if such sentiment is new -- since both TOT and SC seemed quite reviled when they came out, at least by one heavily vocal segment of DT fans. While I didn't agree with the dislike those albums got, it certainly seemed like SDN had it right at least for a few years there. So have the post-Six Degrees albums actually been better-loved the whole time? Or is it a case of aging well? I know in at least some cases hearing the TOT songs live in person and on LaB made people feel differently about them. What do you guys think?
I think it's more that people seem to take the opinions of a vocal minority as the "general consensus".
New fans are clearly swaying this poll.
If a person says that SC blows, that statement usually comes with three paragraphs of hate. If a person says SC rules, that statement usually comes with about three sentences of praise.
What are people more likely to remember? I think it's human nature to only remember the controversial, negative stuff and forget the predictable, positive stuff. That's probably why dislike for new DT seems to be a general consensus, when really, it's not the case.
DT's masterpieces are I&W, Awake, Metropolis pt.2 and 6DOIT IMO
I consider ToT at the least a masterpiece, although Octavarium perhaps also, but there's more I don't like as much on that one.
Having said that, I accidentally voted for the first option. What a dumbass.
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on April 15, 2011, 06:25:05 AM
If a person says that SC blows, that statement usually comes with three paragraphs of hate. If a person says SC rules, that statement usually comes with about three sentences of praise.
What are people more likely to remember? I think it's human nature to only remember the controversial, negative stuff and forget the predictable, positive stuff. That's probably why dislike for new DT seems to be a general consensus, when really, it's not the case.
Couldn't agree more. This is a board of bigtime DT fans, after all. Most of us love 90% or so of the band's work (most people dislike You Not Me, Burning My Soul, and a couple of other songs, and find WDADU's production to ruin it) but like everything else in varying degrees. Sure, you've got the fans who like the proggier stuff (90s) vs. the metal fans who like ToT/SC, but most fans like the whole package, IMO, maybe with a slight tilt toward one side of the other. Not that I have any right to speak for the majority of the fanbase, but seriously, would you be on this forum and posting regularly if you DIDN'T like most DT stuff?
Besides, people with negative opinions kind of, well, HAVE to explain them to stand out from the crowd of people who like 90% of the songs. Sure, not everything such a versatile band does is going to please all the people all the time--it sure doesn't always please me. But still, DT albums are always such a cut above just about everything out there that I have to call them all "masterpieces" except for WDADU and FII. The non-title track parts of Octavarium aren't great either, but whatever. I do see minor issues with everything else, a track here or there, but DT albums keep me going so much longer than those of any other artist.
I think SC blows.
And I don't even need one paragraph.
It actually got 2 or 3 complete spins from me.
A big pile of vomitted wankery.
I enjoy DT's heavier side, like "Train Of Thought" and "Black Clouds & Silver Linings".
I also like the earlier albums, like "Images And Words".
I like TOT, 8V and BC&SL, but I wouldn't call them masterpieces (SC is just average). I agree with many people that 6DOIT was their last album that could be called a masterpiece.
i think the fact that the definition of the term "masterpiece" is open to interpretation makes the results of this thread alot more difficult to analyze.
Technically speaking, an artist can only have one masterpiece. I mean, if something isn't their best, then it isn't their masterpiece.
And for DT, that was Awake.
hm, not sure about that one.
take beethoven. his 5th symphony is widely regarded as a masterpiece, as is his 9th. i think you're referring to the term "magnus opus."
edit - the dictionary definition is somewhat conflicting as well.
mas·ter·piece (mstr-ps)
n.
1. An outstanding work of art or craft.
2. The greatest work, as of an artist. Also called masterwork.
3. Something superlative of its kind: a masterpiece of political ingenuity.
And ceiling fans.
I'm split. As far as SONGs go, I think they've written a few masterpieces post-six-degrees. Octavarium, for one, is an amazing song and every bit deserving of the title "masterpiece".
However, in terms of albums, SDOIT was the last truly cohesive album that had everything a fan could want. Every album past that had weaknesses in either song variety, song quality, or lyrical quality. There have only been a few truly cohesive DT albums, and all of them seem to be sDOIT or before.
I think SDOIT was their last masterpiece. Heck, I think it was their last good album. I only listen to a few songs from all the albums after that one, and didn't like anything on the last album.
Quote from: KevShmev on April 15, 2011, 07:53:52 AM
Technically speaking, an artist can only have one masterpiece. I mean, if something isn't their best, then it isn't their masterpiece.
And for DT, that was Awake.
I dunno, I think you're defining "magnum opus". Although I agree with your sentiment; it sounds like a lot of people are being VERY generous with the term "masterpiece". I would think a masterpiece album would at the very least be required to not contain a single weak track, which certainly doesn't apply to anything past SDOIT.
Another problem could be that people love a lot of DT's music from all eras (as do I), but have a certain "camp" that they identify with, in terms of generally preferring older or newer DT. So their vote may be affected by their desire to stick to their chosen side, even if adhering to the exact wording of the poll might warrant a choice that appears contrary to their usual opinions.
But like ricky said, the biggest thing is that people's different standards for "masterpieces" are muddling the poll.
-J
Octavarium (the song) was their last "masterpiece" in my opinion. I love SC and BC&SL but none of the songs are up there to be honest, for me anyways.
ToT and after......I think the entire Octavarium record is a masterpiece
If I use the definition of "There can be only one Masterpiece", then it's option 1 because that would be I&W.
If I use the definition "I thouroughly enjoy every song or every song except one", it's still option 1 because 6DoIT was the last album I can say that about, although BC&SL is surprisingly close.
Six Degrees was their last musically creative one. The newer ones aren't even really close.
The band's last masterpiece was Six Degrees but Octavarium was also a great album, so I don't feel the band is hopelessly beyond their golden age or anything.
Quote from: Phantasmatron on April 15, 2011, 02:51:16 PM
The band's last masterpiece was Six Degrees but Octavarium was also a great album, so I don't feel the band is hopelessly beyond their golden age or anything.
they're not.
i seriously think they have one or two masterpieces left in them.
I don't think they're washed up. Far from it.
Rush's two best albums (IMO) came out in 1980 and 1981. Hasn't stopped them from making many more albums I thoroughly enjoy.
Quote from: DTVT on April 15, 2011, 02:58:46 PM
I don't think they're washed up. Far from it.
Rush's two best albums (IMO) came out in 1977 and 1978. Hasn't stopped them from making many more albums I thoroughly enjoy.
FTFM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 14, 2011, 11:56:36 PM
Octavarium and Black Clouds both were classic albums.
8VM had its epic concept and BL had the best music I've heard from DT since Awake.
FTFY
Always jumping to conclusions, I mistakenly voted after (I thought song, not album). DT only has two albums I'd consider masterpieces, and they were both before 6D. Masterpiece songs are fairly evenly distributed.
BC&SL happens to be my third favorite album by them so I'll go ahead with the 2nd option.
When I think of what constitutes a "masterpiece", there is generally one album by a particular band that stands out above the rest. For Dream Theater, that was Images and Words as far as I'm concerned. Each and every second of that album is pure brilliance without a single dull moment. Hell, even the leftovers from I&W like Don't Look Past Me and To Live Forever are amazing songs. There is just something special about that album, something about the band being young enough to still have something to prove yet old enough to have just enough maturity to their songwriting, that makes it one of those once in a career works of art. In my mind, they will never top it, no matter how hard they try.
With that said, however, Dream Theater is one of very, very few bands for whom I can say that I often listen to each and every song they have ever written and enjoy it all. As far as I am concerned, DT has no bad albums. They have never had a point in their career where I felt they lost their way musically. I have always felt comfortable simply buying a DT album blindly upon release because I trust the band and their quality of music, and I am always ready for them to take me on a brand new musical journey, where ever that may lead. That is not to say that I love all their albums equally, but when you're talking entire albums, even DT at their weakest is better then most bands at their strongest.
It seems to me that the qualification for a "Masterpiece" in this poll is something like "the last Dream Theater album you absolutely loved from top to bottom". If that is the case, then I am voting for the second option. Over all, I feel the band was just as strong in the last decade as they were in the 90's, and even with the new drummer, I don't feel the need to hear samples of their next record before the release. If it has the Dream Theater name on it, I will buy it, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will thoroughly enjoy it.
Nothing is really wrong with ToT except for the fact that it is an incredibly exhausting listen. But As I Am, Endless Sacrifice, and Honor Thy Father are easily top 20 songs. So it's around the 5th/6th area for me.
Quote from: Ħ on April 16, 2011, 05:30:37 PM
Nothing is really wrong with ToT except for the fact that it is an incredibly exhausting listen. But As I Am, Endless Sacrifice, and Honor Thy Father are easily top 20 songs. So it's around the 5th/6th area for me.
Wrong thread?
If masterpiece is just one album, it's Awake.ToT are much lower than Awake