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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: LieLowTheWantedMan on March 30, 2011, 03:44:36 PM
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Alright, so some of you might know Magma is my second favourite band. Well there has been a lot of controversy in their history that Christian Vander is rumoured to be pro-Nazi. Daevid Allen (singer of one of my other favourite bands, Gong) even accused him of having a room full of swastikas and Hitler pictures when he was a child. Of course, Allen is pretty fucked up, so who knows. There have been other accusations too (swastika in the cover of their debut).
He has also been accused of calling black people primates who will be wiped off the earth. This was a rumour though, and I highly doubt it is true (he often visits John Coltrane's grave to pay his respects). He has also been involved with plenty.
The Nazi thing is also unlikely. As his wife is Jewish, and their manager at first was Jewish. But this is still thought provoking, as many of their songs have things that sound like Hitler speeches, and their language is very German influenced. And some people came up with good arguments, and this paired with the thing about his room having swastikas and the cover of their debut having a swastika, it's pretty mind-boggling. Also, Christian Vander is batshit crazy, so who knows.
Now, onto the topic. The fact is, even if Vander was a Nazi, I'd still listen to his music without any problems. But I have seen some people saying that they are no longer listening to Magma over this. I just care about the music itself. Now if a band you really like was proven to have Nazi thoughts, would you still listen to them? As I said earlier, I would.
Also, please note that their music is not Nazi-ish. Just their thoughts, it doesn't have to do with their music.
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I don't have a moral issue with still listening to them but I'd probably find it hard to stomach to be totally honest. When you listen to music that touches your soul (cliche way of putting it but you know, stuff that gives you the chills, you listen to every day, you rave about to your friends) it's like a really special one way connection between you and the person who made the music, like you really 'get' what they're trying to express emotionally at that moment. I would feel a bit annoyed in the least if I got into a song so much it hit my favourites list and I realised that the person writing it had those kind of principles. I can't explain it logically but that'd probably be the case.
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If I liked the music and the lyrical content wasn't something that I disagreed with then I'd listen to them.
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I wouldn't care. Even if the guy hates jews, he's still making great music, and his beliefs don't necessarily negate the messages he's conveying with his music.
Hell, even if his lyrics were insanely anti-semitic I probably wouldn't care, as long as I didn't find them distracting.
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I don't have a moral issue with still listening to them but I'd probably find it hard to stomach to be totally honest. When you listen to music that touches your soul (cliche way of putting it but you know, stuff that gives you the chills, you listen to every day, you rave about to your friends) it's like a really special one way connection between you and the person who made the music, like you really 'get' what they're trying to express emotionally at that moment. I would feel a bit annoyed in the least if I got into a song so much it hit my favourites list and I realised that the person writing it had those kind of principles. I can't explain it logically but that'd probably be the case.
You raise a good point, I mean I think if Gavin from dredg (my fav band) was a Nazi sympathizer than I'd be put off to say the least, especially since the band would then be tainted in my head whenever I heard them.
Damn, I don't know anymore.
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I guess if the music and lyrical content is neutral, I wouldn't have a problem at all. If there are traces of propaganda in the lyrics and message in the songs, then I might think twice.
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I personally am trying to switch over to strictly antisemitic music
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Probably the only anti semitic song I know is: (NSFW)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUc9zdPaNKw
It doesn't matter to me whether the band is sincere or joking; a lot of Death Metal and Grindcore bands intend to have the most outrageous lyrics possible. If the band is seriously like "Heil Hitler blah blah blah" in their politics and views then basically I think they're a bunch of idiots but I probably would enjoy the music all the same.
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I wouldn't give a shit.
Really, as opposed to nightmare_cinema, I think the person on the other end of the music really doesn't matter at all often, at least not nearly as much as what the listener makes of it. The listener is allowed to take what he wants from it. At least that's how I feel.
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Wouldn't affect my opinion at all.
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I don't have a moral issue with still listening to them but I'd probably find it hard to stomach to be totally honest. When you listen to music that touches your soul (cliche way of putting it but you know, stuff that gives you the chills, you listen to every day, you rave about to your friends) it's like a really special one way connection between you and the person who made the music, like you really 'get' what they're trying to express emotionally at that moment. I would feel a bit annoyed in the least if I got into a song so much it hit my favourites list and I realised that the person writing it had those kind of principles. I can't explain it logically but that'd probably be the case.
You raise a good point, I mean I think if Gavin from dredg (my fav band) was a Nazi sympathizer than I'd be put off to say the least, especially since the band would then be tainted in my head whenever I heard them.
Damn, I don't know anymore.
Indeed. If I found out Steven Wilson was a Nazi sympathiser I'd be seriously and instantly at least slightly put off a lot of my favourite music (PT, Blackfield, his solo work etc.). I think it'd be like meeting the person and them being a total dick to you, it'd just taint it. I know nothing about him in reality, but when I'm immersed emotionally in something that has come straight from his deepest feelings and thoughts, I'd just be thinking about his distasteful views.
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I don't have a moral issue with still listening to them but I'd probably find it hard to stomach to be totally honest. When you listen to music that touches your soul (cliche way of putting it but you know, stuff that gives you the chills, you listen to every day, you rave about to your friends) it's like a really special one way connection between you and the person who made the music, like you really 'get' what they're trying to express emotionally at that moment. I would feel a bit annoyed in the least if I got into a song so much it hit my favourites list and I realised that the person writing it had those kind of principles. I can't explain it logically but that'd probably be the case.
You raise a good point, I mean I think if Gavin from dredg (my fav band) was a Nazi sympathizer than I'd be put off to say the least, especially since the band would then be tainted in my head whenever I heard them.
Damn, I don't know anymore.
Indeed. If I found out Steven Wilson was a Nazi sympathiser I'd be seriously and instantly at least slightly put off a lot of my favourite music (PT, Blackfield, his solo work etc.). I think it'd be like meeting the person and them being a total dick to you, it'd just taint it. I know nothing about him in reality, but when I'm immersed emotionally in something that has come straight from his deepest feelings and thoughts, I'd just be thinking about his distasteful views.
I understand how you feel really. It does bother me to think about it a little, but in the end I'd probably still listen to Magma even if it were true.
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I'd probably still listen too, I could handle a peripheral band like that, someone I listened to every few weeks for a bit or whatever... but there is music I like, and music I completely fucking adore and listen to regularly and put on and lay in a dark room just to get into it and talk to everyone about it and spend ages thinking about it even when it's not on and eventually sit and isolate the different instruments in my head and then tell my dad I want it played at my funeral... you get the picture. I couldn't reach that level of intense feelings for music if the creator was a Nazi, but I wouldn't blame someone who did.
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It wouldn't bother me.
I like Burzum and I don't care about Varg being racist/nazi/whatever.
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There are some funny accusations on Magma though. Some people think because their logo is spikey it ties to them being Nazi. :lol Their logo is my avvy by the way.
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Voted: Only if they were one of my favourites.
Because, well.... I like John Greely's vocals... :neverusethis:
You said band though, so the band wouldn't be a favorite if they were a bunch of neo nazis...
Can I change my vote?
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I do nazi how it would make any difference to me.
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I guess it depends on how in your face their being about it. It's the same thing as a lot of the worship music out there. Because it's not really my thing the really up front stuff can be distracting. Then there are things like Transatlantic or Spock's Beard that have a message in the music but are subtle about it.
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Depends.
If the band were a bunch of neo-nazi's, but their music was politically and ideologically neutral, then I might listen to them, but I certainly wouldn't support the band in any way ie buy any of their music or merchandise, even if they had somehow become a favorite of mine.
OTOH, if their lyrics reflected their beliefs, well, it really depends on the beliefs. A Christian or religious band that is subtle about inserting its beliefs, I wouldn't mind, but a band that spends every song sining about how awesome Jesus is and how sweet his ride is, well, I probably wouldn't listen to that. A racist band that sings about their beliefs I would just avoid.
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I would like them more.
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I think I could separate their beliefs from my enjoyment of the music, but it would probably alter my perspective every time I listen to my hypothetical favorite band of Nazis.
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I wouldn't stop listening to them, but it'd be something hard for me not to think about when I do listen.
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I wouldn't really care, though it would seem a bit wierd.
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I guess it depends on how in your face their being about it. It's the same thing as a lot of the worship music out there. Because it's not really my thing the really up front stuff can be distracting. Then there are things like Transatlantic or Spock's Beard that have a message in the music but are subtle about it.
Pretty much this.
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Meh, thanks to the Nazis we now have Adidas, Porsche, the most famous car in the world: the Beetle VW... I would still listen to them.
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Don't think I would care.
However, if I some day end up in a situation like this, I might say differently.
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Former Amorphis singer Pasi Koskinen is a neo-Nazi, but I still listen to the old Amorphis albums with him on vocals. I don't care about people's ideologies, music is the main thing. Also, I don't think he had that ideology while he was in the band (he left in '04).
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I wouldn't care. Even if the guy hates jews, he's still making great music, and his beliefs don't necessarily negate the messages he's conveying with his music.
Hell, even if his lyrics were insanely anti-semitic I probably wouldn't care, as long as I didn't find them distracting.
This.
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As long as he keeps his beliefs out of the music, I have no problem with it. This goes with anything that could be interpeted as "non-PC"
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I wouldn't care. Wagner was anti-semitic, doesn't make his music bad.
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I think I would care.
And I'd stop listening to them.
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Ok, is there any1 here that would choose not to listen to a band just cuz they support Che Guevara?
I'm directing this to those that would stop listening due to nazism, I'm sensing there might be a tad of hypocrisy up in this
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Not really sure who Che was or what he stood for, I see people wearing his face on shirts....I'm not sure many of them know either.
But.
I know what the Nazi's stood for.
The question was asked.
I answered.
No hypocrisy here as I understand what hypocrisy is.
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I'm guessing that I wouldn't listen to it because if that hatred is spewed it fit's that type of music(full on metal with lyrics I can't understand) I'm not into.
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Or Stalin for that matter. Or any communist leader.
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NEVER!
Id spit on their music.
Id despise them
No music is that good that Id compromise my morals...F THEM!
I will not tolerate any sort of bigotry or hatred by a so called ahole musician or anyone
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One of the biggest reasons I can't get into black metal.
Aside from corpse paint and goth pants.
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My problem with norwegian black metal is I don't like the sound of it. However, Bathory is just massive amounts of :metal :metal :metal
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Ok, is there any1 here that would choose not to listen to a band just cuz they support Che Guevara?
Are you saying that just because Che Guevara was a Marxist?
Because there's nothing actually wrong with being a Marxist, it doesn't make you a bad person.
Being a Nazi kinda does.
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(https://i.imgur.com/dVuB1.jpg)
Varg likes cheesy wotsits. That must mean cheesy wotsits are for Anti-semites and national socialists.
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I'm gonna pull the obvious Communism has killed more than Nazism.
Done.
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I'm gonna pull the obvious Communism has killed more than Nazism.
Done.
I'm gonna pull the obvious communism is not a political ideology that believes in killing innocent people and that Nazism is.
Standing for Nazism makes you a fascist who believes that a large number of people do not have the right to live a free and decent life (at the very least). Standing for communism makes you someone who believes that all people should be equal at the base level.
You can be a communist and a pacifist, you couldn't be a Nazi and a pacifist.
Furtheremore there has never, and never will be, a true communist regime in any country anywhere in the world. Sadly communism doesn't actually work in practice.
Also I think you'll find that democracy has killed more people than either communism or nazism.
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]
Varg likes cheesy wotsits. That must mean cheesy wotsits are for Anti-semites and national socialists.
They are. :\
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I'm gonna pull the obvious Communism has killed more than Nazism.
:facepalm:
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It doesn't bother me. I'll listen to (and have listened to) bands whose lyrics promote slavery and racial genocide if they make good music. That's just what you sometimes get when you listen to certain kinds of metal.
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So we ask if you would listen to a band that hates jews?
What about a band that hates christians?
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7uoAnJjFLfU/TLwCp0wuK8I/AAAAAAAAAC4/G1NpZb1NP1U/s1600/behemoth-group-b-400lvg062509.jpg)
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Well I listen to slayer. :neverusethis:
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I do nazi how it would make any difference to me.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hz8UeL8Cd04/TZVDpPrhkyI/AAAAAAAAAG8/givyjJjHBzw/s1600/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.jpg)
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I do nazi how it would make any difference to me.
(https://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy212/CompendiumOfAwesomePics/Untitled.png?t=1301628471)
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When I saw the thread title I was like, "Hell no! I have principles!"
Then ? says Amorphis's old vocalist was a neo-nazi, and I'm like, "Fuck it. I ain't stoppin'".
Way to be a good human TOX.
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I think I would care.
And I'd stop listening to them.
This.
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(https://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy212/CompendiumOfAwesomePics/Untitled.png?t=1301628471)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vomxyIDaLtQ
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No way in hell would I listen to the band anymore, it would sicken me to my stomach. I wouldn't want to hear a single word that came out of their mouth nevermind the music they've put their heart and soul into. That's something I wouldn't want to hear.
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For a while I thought no one would say no, but now some are. I gotta say I can understand you guys, it makes me pretty uncomfortable to think about the possibility.
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Seriously? How could you support ANYONE who stands for the killing of an entire race of human beings? :omg:
You would willing support a person who believes in this?
(https://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/holocaust4.jpg)
(https://www.thefuturejew.com/image/belsen01.jpg)
I almost dropped my computer when i saw the results of this poll. WTFF
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Not necessarily for me TJ, but you may wanna post NSFW before those pics just in case :tup
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i know but i felt it was appropriate for the topic because i personally feel people are not taking the nazi thing seriously for some reason.
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I don't think we need any graphics to explain to us what the Nazis did.
As for the actual question, I don't particularly give a shit AKA I'm in the good music is good music camp
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i know but i felt it was appropriate for the topic because i personally feel people are not taking the nazi thing seriously for some reason.
I understand, its just someone browsing at work might not wanna see dead bodies and get some weird looks :lol
Personally, I think that if it was one of my favorite artists/bands, it would make me look at them differently and might push me away from them, but if the music is really good and has nothing to do with their Nazi beliefs, I'd probably end up listening to the music again because...well, its my favorite artists/bands.
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I almost dropped my computer when i saw the results of this poll. WTFF
Why were you holding you're computer? Don't you get tired?
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Seriously? How could you support ANYONE who stands for the killing of an entire race of human beings? :omg:
No1's saying they support their views. Do you support the political views of John Petrucci just because you listen to the music?
I mean, as long as the lyrics or the music itself isn't about their political views, I'd gladly listen if it sounded allright.
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Seriously? How could you support ANYONE who stands for the killing of an entire race of human beings? :omg:
You would willing support a person who believes in this?
*snippity*
*bippity*
I almost dropped my computer when i saw the results of this poll. WTFF
Sure is sensationalism in here.
Seriously though, dude I'm Jewish. The majority of my family is Jewish. And yet I still don't care whether or not the artist themselves have "Nazi sympathies". It's their opinion (disagreeable or not) and boycotting their music won't change that. If the music they create is still good I'll listen to it. I've also yet to hear a serious song about killing Jews and being the master race, and like it. These artists don't always put these national socialist belief systems directly into their music.
Mildly relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CyPVgMZm58&feature=youtu.be#t=4m53s
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ya..gettin pretty close to a move the P/R thread...and those pics might get you a slap.....just sayin.
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Depends.
If the lyrics are pro-nazi i wouldn't but if they have nothing to do with ideology i would still listen.
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Mildly relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CyPVgMZm58&feature=youtu.be#t=4m53s
HOLY SHIT WHY
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Mildly relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CyPVgMZm58&feature=youtu.be#t=4m53s
HOLY SHIT WHY
wat
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Seriously? How could you support ANYONE who stands for the killing of an entire race of human beings? :omg:
No1's saying they support their views. Do you support the political views of John Petrucci just because you listen to the music?
I mean, as long as the lyrics or the music itself isn't about their political views, I'd gladly listen if it sounded allright.
You can't compare John petrucci being a conservative to being a Nazi. It's not the same. John petrucci has been my idol since i was about 14 years old. Now i'm 30 and he's still my favorite musician but if it came out that he believed in the Nazi philosophy then that would be the last day i would support him. That's being straight up and honest.
Also those pics are nothing more than you would see in any history class. That's History, there's nothing wrong with it.
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Mildly relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CyPVgMZm58&feature=youtu.be#t=4m53s
HOLY SHIT WHY
???
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Seriously? How could you support ANYONE who stands for the killing of an entire race of human beings? :omg:
No1's saying they support their views. Do you support the political views of John Petrucci just because you listen to the music?
I mean, as long as the lyrics or the music itself isn't about their political views, I'd gladly listen if it sounded allright.
You can't compare John petrucci being a conservative to being a Nazi. It's not the same. John petrucci has been my idol since i was about 14 years old. Now i'm 30 and he's still my favorite musician but if it came out that he believed in the Nazi philosophy then that would be the last day i would support him. That's being straight up and honest.
Also those pics are nothing more than you would see in any history class. That's History, there's nothing wrong with it.
He's saying to support one's music is not to support their political views.
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I think the whole Dave Mustaine + Rick Santorum problem is mildly relevant to this, so I'll bump to see if interesting points are brought up.
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No. It's one of my principles. I don't support any artist who claims to be a Nazi, or National Socialist, or whatever. And if I find out I have been without knowing (like the OP mentioning Magma) my support is withdrawn. I can support people who I disagree with politically-it's an occupational hazard with my reading of technothrillers and military science fiction unless they go so far beyond the pale that I can't stomach it (hello, Orson Scott Card and Ted Nugent) but I draw the line at supporting someone who believes in a political movement that caused a world war and one of the most horrific acts of ethnic cleansing in history.
And yes, I can make a distinction about Communism. However if someone plays in a band and idolizes Joseph Stalin, right out the door goes their music.
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I'd find an openly pro-Nazi band hard to stomach. I find it hard to believe that someone endorsing such a blatantly incorrect political viewpoint would have the sensibility to make art, but even if the music were awesome, I wouldn't want to give them any money.
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Well I listen to Burzum and Varg is a racist piece of shit, I just let the music be separate from the artist. We all gotta make a living somehow.
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And yes, I can make a distinction about Communism. However if someone plays in a band and idolizes Joseph Stalin, right out the door goes their music.
Yeah, Communism is fine for sure. The band Henry Cow and Robert Wyatt both are and I love them.
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I have no qualms with the idea of listening to music that had been produced by someone or some group with questionable values and beliefs, provided I find the music enjoyable. I believe the music should able to stand on its own.
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I just feel "icky" listening to a band like that, so no. I mean obviously, me being Jewish and all.
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Not this thread again...
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If the music is great and it doesn't contain that type of lyrics, I'll listen. What a person believes in has nothing to do with the music IMO. A great tune is a great tune. So is a good painting. Hitlers paintings still look nice, even if he's responsible for the worst war of all time.
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I honestly don't give a fuck. At all.
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I try to keep the artist separate from their art, but sometimes a line is crossed where my perception of the artist taints their art. Tom Cruise and Axl Rose have both crossed the line with their antics, such that I will no longer support them. An artist actually espousing bigotry is going way past the line.
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I don't like drunks and drug-addicts...
but if I boycotted all their music, I'd have nothing to listen to. :sadpanda:
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If the music is great and it doesn't contain that type of lyrics, I'll listen. What a person believes in has nothing to do with the music IMO. A great tune is a great tune. So is a good painting. Hitlers paintings still look nice, even if he's responsible for the worst war of all time.
Actually, no. Hitler's paintings are infamous for being objectively bad, or at least bad enough to prevent him from being admitted to an art school.
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Generally speaking I am not too concerned about the views/rantings/shortcomings/quirks of any artists whose music I buy/listen to, as long as they are not hurting anyone, I can generally overlook it.
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I can overlook a band being atheists but when they are actively atheists and use every single possible opportunity to make sure everyone knows they are anti-christian it gets a bit boring.
You say you hate religion but you are so pro-actively anti-religion that it's virtually a dogmatic religion in itself.
To me it just seems like a complete waste of energy being so adamantly against something you don't even believe in.
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I can overlook a band being atheists but when they are actively atheists and use every single possible opportunity to make sure everyone knows they are anti-christian it gets a bit boring.
You say you hate religion but you are so pro-actively anti-religion that it's virtually a dogmatic religion in itself.
To me it just seems like a complete waste of energy being so adamantly against something you don't even believe in.
Are you talking about bands like those from the black metal scene or Bad Religion?
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I guess more like Black Metal. Bad Religion are ok since Greg said he only has a problem with people forcing their views on other people and has no problem at all with Christians who keep to themselves...He went on to add that he thinks the name Bad Religion and their No Cross logo is kinda embarrassing but they've had it since they were young and they're stuck with it :P