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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Ħ on November 10, 2010, 10:28:59 AM
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Yesterday at school, we learned about sociological food problems.
Or at least, my peers did. I busied myself for two hours analyzing which album was potentially the greatest. I basically compiled three categories: good, meh, and bad. At first, I thought the album with the crown was going to either be IaW or SDOIT. IaW only had one bad song, two meh songs, and five good songs. SDOIT had two bad, no meh, and four good songs (including a 42 minute song). In the end, I went for SDOIT, simply because of the 2:1 good to bad ratio.
Then I came to ToT. I started categorizing the songs, and, to my surprise, there were NO bad songs. Only two recieved a meh rating, and FIVE recieved a good rating. That gives us a 5:2 good to meh ratio, which is much better than a 2:1 good to bad ratio.
It was then that I knew in my heart that ToT was going to come out on top.
From cover to cover, this album does not hold back. There is so much energy and power behind each and every song. After thinking about it a bit, I realized that ToT is basically a heavy IaW. You open up with a semi-mainstream sounding song, with real grungy riffs that make you slowly bob your head. You close with a song that builds up, reaches a peak, has a final chorus, and ends with a vocal fadeout (sort of, in ItNoG's case).
Not only that, but the mixing is incredible. I believe it was Reapsta that brought up the point that JMX brings a lot of strength to the compositions because his bass is so loud. HTF was the example given.
The three most common favorite albums I've seen have been IaW, Awake, and SFAM. I do feel that those albums have a degree of nostalgia with them, but they don't really feel fresh anymore. Yet even after 8 years, ToT still feels fresh.
Oooooo, I love this album.
Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested. It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.
ToT
SDoiT
IaW
SFaM
BCaSL
FII
Awake
Octavarium
SC
WDaDU
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Near the bottom of the list for me. Sorry, but it's an insanely weak album in the DT canon. I put SC and maybe WD&DU beneath it.
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It's weird. I LOVED the album, then I went and saw them on the ToT tour... and I started to dislike the album. I think more than anything, seeing them live blew the studio performance out of the water. In the past year or so, I've gotten back into it and I'm digging it again.
It's not one of my favorite DT albums, but I still enjoy the heck outta it.
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Calling ToT a heavy I&W is an epic insult to I&W; kind of like . . . reaching for an analogy here . . . I don't know, kind of like saying Cannibal Corpse is a heavier version of the Beatles.
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:lol Yeah that sounds about right.
I think it's a great sounding record. It has it's moments. But at the end of the day, it just doesn't stack up with their better works.
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Then I came to ToT. I started categorizing the songs, and, to my surprise, there were NO bad songs. Only two recieved a meh rating, and FIVE recieved a good rating. That gives us a 5:2 good to meh ratio, which is much better than a 2:1 good to bad ratio.
This, so much. Train Of Thought is my favourite DT album. Several of their best songs come from it, and it's their most consistent album. As I Am is good as a straight forward song with a decent solo, Vacant is just a 2 minute intro to Stream Of Consciousness that works well, and then the bulk of the album is 5 really solid songs. People talk about the structure they'd like a new album to be, and for me it's Train Of Thought - just a few brilliant songs,. The 20 minute epic + others can be good, but usually the other songs suffer. And the many shorter songs makes it more likely some of the songs won't be so great.
Obviously the old stuff is great, and being old it has an immediate advantage in terms of people choosing their favourites. But for me it's Train of Thought, all the way. SDOIT is a second, then SFAM, BC&SL, I&W and maybe even SC are all around the same, I could favour one more than the other depending on when you ask me.
This is the kind of appreciation thread I like :tup
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My personal ranking of the two conjoined album's songs:
Learning to Live
Surrounded
Endless Sacrifice
Honor Thy Father
Take the Time
Metropolis
In the Name of God
As I Am
Wait for Sleep
This Dying Soul
Another Day
Pull Me Under
Under a Glass Moon
Vacant
For me, they're neck and neck., but ToT fares slightly better.
As for the objective ranking (and I know people hate that word), it would probably look like this:
Learning to Live
Metropolis
In the Name of God
Surrounded
Take the Time
Honor Thy Father
Endless Sacrifice
Under a Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Another Day
This Dying Soul
Pull Me Under
As I Am
Stream of Consciousness
Vacant
Hmm. So, I guess, objectively, IaW is the best. But from my emotionally-tainted perspective, ToT is better, and I connect with it and appreciate it more.
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>objective
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I don't get the ">" meme. How does it work?
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I think Train of Thought is a GREAT album. I love the fact that it's so consistently heavy throughout (except Vacant obviously). DT has plenty of songs that are mellow or progressive, so it's just really cool to see them go all-out metal for an album and melt some faces. The fact that they're able to do this makes me really appreciate the heaviness and then also really appreciate the other qualities of the band in other albums. I sort of see it as similar to when Opeth released Damnation and Deliverance. Just makes you really dig the different sides of the band.
And Stream of Consciousness still remains my number 1 song I'd love to see live but haven't yet.
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Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested. It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.
I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash. With a fairly mediocre host of songs, it wasn't exactly a gift to the advertisers.
Not saying it's a bad album. It's intelligent, brimming with atmosphere, very well-written, and it feels thematic like no other album since - even the thematic ones. So I'm very glad we've got that music to enjoy. But it's a very modest album. Mediocre probably wasn't the most appropriate word.
Train of Thought, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. Every song is a statement in itself. Lays its cards out on the table within the first minute, and then pounds it home. Really brimming with life, and bristling with heaviness, but the thing is that it's also absolutely chock full of stellar melodies. It's not just a heavy album. It's very catchy, and melodic, and well-written. Got a lot of time for Train of Thought, and I've said this many times lately, but I'm convinced it's currently going through its fan re-evaluation phase as SDOIT did a few years back.
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Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested. It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.
I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash. With a fairly mediocre host of songs, it wasn't exactly a gift to the advertisers.
Not saying it's a bad album. It's intelligent, brimming with atmosphere, very well-written, and it feels thematic like no other album since - even the thematic ones. So I'm very glad we've got that music to enjoy. But it's a very modest album. Mediocre probably wasn't the most appropriate word.
Train of Thought, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. Every song is a statement in itself. Lays its cards out on the table within the first minute, and then pounds it home. Really brimming with life, and bristling with heaviness, but the thing is that it's also absolutely chock full of stellar melodies. It's not just a heavy album. It's very catchy, and melodic, and well-written. Got a lot of time for Train of Thought, and I've said this many times lately, but I'm convinced it's currently going through its fan re-evaluation phase as SDOIT did a few years back.
This could have been written by Shakespeare.
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Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested. It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.
I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash. With a fairly mediocre host of songs, it wasn't exactly a gift to the advertisers.
Not saying it's a bad album. It's intelligent, brimming with atmosphere, very well-written, and it feels thematic like no other album since - even the thematic ones. So I'm very glad we've got that music to enjoy. But it's a very modest album. Mediocre probably wasn't the most appropriate word.
Train of Thought, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. Every song is a statement in itself. Lays its cards out on the table within the first minute, and then pounds it home. Really brimming with life, and bristling with heaviness, but the thing is that it's also absolutely chock full of stellar melodies. It's not just a heavy album. It's very catchy, and melodic, and well-written. Got a lot of time for Train of Thought, and I've said this many times lately, but I'm convinced it's currently going through its fan re-evaluation phase as SDOIT did a few years back.
This could have been written by Shakespeare.
Cheers for the sentiment, but I have it on very good authority that Shakespeare actually thought Dream Theater sold out with Images and Words, and is more of a Porcupine Tree fan nowadays.
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I can't wait for the SC fan re-evaluation phase. :)
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I can't wait for the SC fan re-evaluation phase. :)
Nor me! Ooooh that's gonna be a fun one.
Give it half a decade, mind.
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Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested. It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.
I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash.
Can't get on board with your whole post rob, but I completely agree with this. As far as prog goes, I&W is full of the catchy melodies and elements that give music more accessibility (relatively speaking), while Awake is much harder to digest.
Gotta disagree with your ranking too, Brother. Less than half of ToT is "good" IMO, and I place it in DT's bottom three albums (along with SC and Octavarium). Nearly all of the instrumental passages are bland and uninteresting, the lyrics aren't good, and in general I just don't think DT is at their best when doing all-out metal. *shrug*
I do share your love for I&W and SDOIT though; those are my #1 and #3, respectively. And I agree that I&W doesn't really sound "fresh", but I attribute that to its production. Awake still sounds fairly modern to my untrained ears, as does everything that has come since.
-J
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In The Name Of God, Honor Thy Father, and the first half of This Dying Soul are all pretty awesome.
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For context, here is my DT album ranking:
1. Six Degrees
2. Scenes From a Memory
3. Images & Words
4. Octavarium
5. Awake
6. Black Clouds
7. Falling Into Infinity
8. Systematic Chaos
9. Train of Thought
10. WDADU
As you can see, it does not rank highly in DT's discography. But that being said, I agree with Rob's assessment and I do find it to be a very good album. Another interesting thing that I find about this album is that, on one hand, it is heavy from start to finish, which kind of makes it an exhausting listen. On the other hand, to me, it really picks up steam toward the end. That 1-2-3 combo of Vacant, SOC, ITNOG at the end is just stellar. So, overall, fine album. I do have my complaints about it, but it's a great album. After the fact, I find that it and Octavarium compliment each other very nicely, and I often find myself wanting to listen to both of them back to back.
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Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested. It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.
I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash.
Can't get on board with your whole post rob, but I completely agree with this. As far as prog goes, I&W is full of the catchy melodies and elements that give music more accessibility (relatively speaking), while Awake is much harder to digest.
Yeah, do regret using the word "mediocre" to an extent. Think modest covers it, though.
Awake makes a hell of a lot of artistic sense, but not so much business sense. Think the label were right to try and squeeze a hit out of them. A Pull Me Under II is exactly what the album needed. They didn't want to change the band, just give the public an excuse to stick with them.
Still! All went down well in the end, and we've got a lovely bit of Awake to listen to, now, so history's history.
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Yes, but also keep in mind the year it was released. Althought DT wasn't really part of "mainstream metal," you need sort of a mainstream album for it to generate sales numbers. And think about the shift that was going on at that time.
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I think the Mirror could have done well. Its dark, but its quite catchy if I do say so myself.
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I really liked it a lot at the time it came out, but it hasn't really aged well for me. Still a solid metal album and it has a lot of cool riffs, but the excess can really wear on you after a while. It was probably a little too rushed in the making of it, but at the same time, they didn't seem to realize that it's ok to just end a song and move on without a few extra minutes of noodling. HTF and ITNOG are highlight tracks for me.
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good album although not my favorite. In the Name of God is in my top 10 favorite songs. :hefdaddy
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ToT is a solid album.
I&W and SFAM (I hope grouping them isn't cheating?)
Awake
SDOIT
8vm
FiI
ToT
BC&SL
SC
WDADU
IaW only had one bad song
Which one?
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Under a Glass Moon. Vocals and drums are incredible, plus you have the major guitar solo. But all DT songs have that. It's great by music standards, poor by DT standards. It's lyrically useless, emotionally void, and is ultimately forgettable. The intro is as bad as Innocence Faded's and the outro is as bad as Caught in a Web's. There is seriously no point or purpose to this song. It's one of the few I'd label "filler."
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It was a grower for me. I used to think the way you did about it until I realized I was wrong. The only truly bad song on that album is Another Day.
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Under a Glass Moon. Vocals and drums are incredible, plus you have the major guitar solo. But all DT songs have that. It's great by music standards, poor by DT standards. It's lyrically useless, emotionally void, and is ultimately forgettable. The intro is as bad as Innocence Faded's and the outro is as bad as Caught in a Web's. There is seriously no point or purpose to this song. It's one of the few I'd label "filler."
WAT.
:censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored
On the topic of ToT, I'm not a fan. Second worst DT album, even though it does have winners like ITNOG, As I Am, and Vacant.
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I think I legitimately dislike this album. It honestly might be my least favorite from DT.
Also, In The Name of God is way overrated. I've seen people say it's a "near perfect" song. It's the furthest thing from that for me.
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Interestingly, I&W and SC are the two albums that most closely match up if I were going by how many song are good, bad, etc. For me, it breaks down about like this:
I&W SC
Stellar: Metropolis ITPOE1
Learning To Live Constant Motion
VERY good: Wait For Sleep Forsaken
Pull Me Under ITPOE2
Good: UAGM TDEN
Just okay: Take The Time Repentence
Not very good: Surrounded TMOLS
Bad: Another Day Prophets of War
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It was a grower for me. I used to think the way you did about it until I realized I was wrong. The only truly bad song on that album is Another Day.
Another Day is my second least favorite from the album. It's one I'd put in the "meh" category. The other one I'd label as "meh" would be Pull Me Under. *shrugs* That's just my opinion.
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It's a pretty good album, but it's too one-dimensional for me to listen to very often. But no way is it better than Images & Words.
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Under a Glass Moon. Vocals and drums are incredible, plus you have the major guitar solo. But all DT songs have that. It's great by music standards, poor by DT standards. It's lyrically useless, emotionally void, and is ultimately forgettable. The intro is as bad as Innocence Faded's and the outro is as bad as Caught in a Web's. There is seriously no point or purpose to this song. It's one of the few I'd label "filler."
Gah, you're killin' me Brother!
Also, In The Name of God is way overrated. I've seen people say it's a "near perfect" song. It's the furthest thing from that for me.
Yeah. It's pretty cool, but the solo/unison section is terrible. Annoying, even. Sounds hard to play, I'll give 'em that.
Another Day is my second least favorite from the album. It's one I'd put in the "meh" category. The other one I'd label as "meh" would be Pull Me Under. *shrugs* That's just my opinion.
Same here. I don't dislike either of 'em by any means, but Another Day is a little too saturated with '80s cliches and Pull Me Under just isn't that interesting to me anymore.
Bosk, your grading of SC songs scares and confuses me. :o
-J
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This album is pure badassery-ness. This Dying Soul is one of the best songs on the album and I don't understand the hate. I just don't understand. :zook2:
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Bosk, your grading of SC songs scares and confuses me. :o
I honestly can't tell if he's serious or just mocking my comparison of IaW to ToT.
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Dead serious. I don't see I&W and TOT as being comparable, but I do get a direct comparison bewteen I&W and TOT in terms of the number of songs that I would place in each category.
I guess I could try to do a similar breakdown for TOT, but it's a lot harder for me to put songs from that album into those categories because, while they all have a lot going for them, most of them have things that drag them down. But I'll give it a shot:
Stellar: Stream of Consciousness
ITNOG
VERY good: Vacant
Good: As I Am
Just okay: This Dying Soul
Honor Thy Father
Not very good: Endless Sacrifice
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Really? To me, IAW is MILES ahead of SC...I don't think Learning to Live is on the same level as Constant Motion! I love CM to death, probably would make my top 20, but still...Learning to Live, man! *shakes head in disbelief*
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Well, if I had to rank the songs head to head, the I&W songs in each category would mostly finish ahead of the SC songs in the same category. But I would still rank both Learning to Live and Constant Motion, for example, as "stellar" songs even though the former is a better song than the latter.
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It was a grower for me. I used to think the way you did about it until I realized I was wrong. The only truly bad song on that album is Another Day.
Another Day is amazing! :(
My rankings I guess:
Images and Words (BIG SURPRISE HUH)
Awake
Falling Into Infinity (Nearly half of this album is in my top 20, that more than makes up for the dismal half of it)
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Scenes From a Memory (I'm guessing SFAM being #5 is blasphemy? :biggrin: )
When Dream and Day Unite
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Train of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
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What is WDADU doing above BCSL?
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What is WDADU doing above BCSL?
Because he likes it better?
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That's probably why but I have my suspicions.
Actually I forgot that Seventh Son has a crazy song ranking. I think Killing Hand is number 5 or something. That would explain a lot.
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That's probably why but I have my suspicions.
Actually I forgot that Seventh Son has a crazy song ranking. I think Killing Hand is number 5 or something. That would explain a lot.
I like Black Clouds, but no song on it cracks my top 30 while WDADU has at least 2 songs in it (Ytse Jam is in the top 25). Half the album is in my top 50.
BC&SL just felt like a "by the numbers" album by Dream Theater. Its good, but not anything super special.
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What is WDADU doing above BCSL?
Because it is objectively better?
Fixed. :neverusethis:
SS, flip FII and SDOIT and our album rankings are identical. :metal
-J
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What is WDADU doing above BCSL?
Because it is objectively better?
Fixed. :neverusethis:
SS, flip FII and SDOIT and our album rankings are identical. :metal
-J
I just love FII so much that I have to put it at #3. Three bad songs, 1 decent song and seven awesome songs including Trial of Tears, Lines in the Sand, Hollow Years, Hell's Kitchen, Peruvian Skies, New Millennium and Anna Lee! :heart
but lolopinions
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I love it too. I guess the way I look at it is that FII's highs are way higher than SDOIT's, but it's lows are also lower. Either way, it's a close call.
-J
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Someone mentioned earlier how they thought this album was mixed well, personally i think it is overall their worset sounding album, sonically that is. Besides that when i first heard this in 2003 i was extremely happy with this album. I listen to every song except HTF, but either way the album has aged wel for me. Favorite on the album is itNoG. But there is some pretty awesome unisons on this album.
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ToT doesn't really attract me, tbh. At the moment, the only reason I'd buy it is to complete the Twelve Step Saga.
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That's why I bought it. That was about 3 months ago and I didn't start liking it until now. It's not by favorite album, but it's not ignorable like before.
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My favourite DT album, it's amazing.
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yo dawg, I heard u like appreciation threads, so we made an appreciation thread appreciation thread so you can appreciate whilst you appreciate.
but seriously, as this was probably the album that got me into them, I find it interesting that it ended up being my least favorite of their albums. Still think that stream & ITNOG are awesome
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As a new fan in 2007 I discovered these songs through the Budokan DVD, and I really liked As I Am and This Dying Soul. But as I got their other albums I found ToT slowly dropping on my DT album ranking list. It's been on the lower half ever since (around 7-8), but I do love ITNoG still and I'm glad I got to see it live last year on PN09. I don't know, the album feels too one-dimensional to me.
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does anyone else not like vacant?
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does anyone else not like vacant?
Why would anyone not like Vacant? It is atmospheric, haunting, sparse, and gorgeous. It's the best song on the album.
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does anyone else not like vacant?
Me. JLB really oversings this one.
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I'd rank TOT 6th or 7th, but it's still great. There are simply so many great DT albums! In the Name of God is one of my favorite DT songs. But I have to say that TOT suffers a bit from its one-dimensional style IMO.
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. But I have to say that TOT suffers a bit from its one-dimensional style IMO.
Yeah, I think that's the problem with ToT, at least for me. Plus, compared to Live At Budokan, where the songs really come alive, the studio versions come off as king of flat. You'd think an album with that many good songs would rank higher. It's a thing even I'm guilty of.
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This album and SC have aged most terribly for me. I almost never listen to even ITNOG, which is obviously the best song in the album. It's like I have completely no urge to listen to this album at all. Too much wankery imo. *flameshield*
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As I Am :metal :metal :metal
Itnog & SOC are classics.
Still TOT doesn't make it to a top 3 in my personal list. I couldn't bother making one atm... would req too much thinking
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In my opinion, in the name of god saved ToT of being the worst for me.
as a side note: I wish people uses "in my opinion" more often....
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In my opinion, in the name of god saved ToT of being the worst for me.
as a side note: I wish people uses "in my opinion" more often....
because saying "in my opinion" after every single statement is practical when its obviously assumed to be an opinion in the first place
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Well some people can't wrap their brain around the fact that just because someone states an opinion you disagree with it doesn't automatically mean they're pushing stuff as facts. It's a cute defense mechanism though despite being a very pointless one.
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In my opinion, in the name of god saved ToT of being the worst for me.
as a side note: I wish people uses "in my opinion" more often....
because saying "in my opinion" after every single statement is practical when its obviously assumed to be an opinion in the first place
i will not make references but you can clearly see some of the people in forums express their opinions as general facts and show not much respect in different opinions.
Then there's some people that don't need to say "in my opinion" because the way the act is an obvious reflection that they do are open and were telling their opinion in the first place ;).
Well lets not fight/arg. over this ;)
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In my opinion, in the name of god saved ToT of being the worst for me.
as a side note: I wish people uses "in my opinion" more often....
because saying "in my opinion" after every single statement is practical when its obviously assumed to be an opinion in the first place
i will not make references but you can clearly see some of the people in forums express their opinions as general facts and show not much respect in different opinions.
Then there's some people that don't need to say "in my opinion" because the way the act is an obvious reflection that they do are open and were telling their opinion in the first place ;).
Well lets not fight/arg. over this ;)
Where has anyone here done that? Does saying "Rush is better than Dream Theater" make it a fact? No, of course not, its an opinion. Just not everyone likes to go and say "in my opinion" after EVERY GODDAMN STATEMENT. It pisses me off when shit like this happens.
Well some people can't wrap their brain around the fact that just because someone states an opinion you disagree with it doesn't automatically mean they're pushing stuff as facts. It's a cute defense mechanism though despite being a very pointless one.
Sadly I agree.
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Where has anyone here done that? Does saying "Rush is better than Dream Theater" make it a fact? No, of course not, its an opinion. Just not everyone likes to go and say "in my opinion" after EVERY GODDAMN STATEMENT. It pisses me off when shit like this happens.
Ok, i guess we disagree in this matter, no problems tho, lets move on.
ToT have some great highlights for me.. the best one is "in the name of god" which rates top 5 in my songs list.
then..
Honor thy father
Endless sacrifice: from the instrumental break to the end
some parts from this dying soul
Vacant is an amazing song but depending on my mood.
And the rest of ToT is rated in my least fav songs from DT.
Must of the time i skip every song from ToT but itnog
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When I first heard Train of Thought it was my second favorite album by DT. But over time, I only find myself listening to As I Am, Honor Thy Father and ITNOG if at all.
Awake
Images and Words
When Dream and Day Unite
Falling Into Infinity
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Systematic Chaos
Scenes From A Memory
Train of Thought
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I honestly love this album to bits. This Dying Soul has one of my faveorite choruses.
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In my opinion, in the name of god saved ToT of being the worst for me.
as a side note: I wish people uses "in my opinion" more often....
because saying "in my opinion" after every single statement is practical when its obviously assumed to be an opinion in the first place
I think the act of deference is what people like.
For starters, nobody's doing themself a favour by speaking in absolutes. "Factiness" is a rich spectrum. Dropping the "maybes" and "to an extents" and "as far as I'm concerneds" is like buying a box of crayons, and only EVER using the red one. If you're not qualifying your opinion with opinion words, you're not saying precisely what you mean. It's a very clumsy way to communicate. Speaking in absolutes kind of means they're devalued when you actually do want to state something as a fact. And as that boundary isn't always crystal clear, I think it's only sensible to be precise at all times.
But, more importantly (or hey! less importantly, why not), people are more likely to like you. Sometimes opinions are implicit, and that's fine. If I say "The Ministry of Lost Souls is crap," it's obvious that I don't mean that as an objective fact, sure. But if I say "I'm not fond of the Ministry of Lost Souls," I'm allowing people to disagree with me. It's not hostile. It's not insulting. And it places the blame in my own court. It's not an attack on a work that someone likes, it's an opinion you've taken from said work. Not insulting, not degrading, not vicious.
'Course, sometimes you want to be vicious. But if you're being aggressive, it'd be a bit rich not to expect others to be defensive.
I don't know. I think it's fair to be nitpicky. And I don't think it's fair to dismiss the idea of saying what you mean, as opposed to saying roughly what you mean and expecting everyone else to judge the context correctly. Sometimes it's obvious. Other times it's not.
(Speaking of nitpicks, all "you"s in the above post are totally impersonal. As in "what one means." Not as in "Seventh Son, I am talking directly to you." I'm just far too colloquial for that shizzat, y'all.)
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In my opinion, in the name of god saved ToT of being the worst for me.
as a side note: I wish people uses "in my opinion" more often....
because saying "in my opinion" after every single statement is practical when its obviously assumed to be an opinion in the first place
I think the act of deference is what people like.
For starters, nobody's doing themself a favour by speaking in absolutes. "Factiness" is a rich spectrum. Dropping the "maybes" and "to an extents" and "as far as I'm concerneds" is like buying a box of crayons, and only EVER using the red one. If you're not qualifying your opinion with opinion words, you're not saying precisely what you mean. It's a very clumsy way to communicate. Speaking in absolutes kind of means they're devalued when you actually do want to state something as a fact. And as that boundary isn't always crystal clear, I think it's only sensible to be precise at all times.
But, more importantly (or hey! less importantly, why not), people are more likely to like you. Sometimes opinions are implicit, and that's fine. If I say "The Ministry of Lost Souls is crap," it's obvious that I don't mean that as an objective fact, sure. But if I say "I'm not fond of the Ministry of Lost Souls," I'm allowing people to disagree with me. It's not hostile. It's not insulting. And it places the blame in my own court. It's not an attack on a work that someone likes, it's an opinion you've taken from said work. Not insulting, not degrading, not vicious.
'Course, sometimes you want to be vicious. But if you're being aggressive, it'd be a bit rich not to expect others to be defensive.
I don't know. I think it's fair to be nitpicky. And I don't think it's fair to dismiss the idea of saying what you mean, as opposed to saying roughly what you mean and expecting everyone else to judge the context correctly. Sometimes it's obvious. Other times it's not.
(Speaking of nitpicks, all "you"s in the above post are totally impersonal. As in "what one means." Not as in "Seventh Son, I am talking directly to you." I'm just far too colloquial for that shizzat, y'all.)
Its not being hostile at all unless you happen to interpret it that way. Which in that case you interpreted what that person said incorrectly.
After a while of discussion with music, I find that just saying what I want to say is far easier than adding an "in my opinion" at the end of it every time I say it. If I think Systematic Chaos is shit, then that's just my opinion. And its pretty obvious its my opinion. Its a strong one, true. But that was the intention, because I strongly think that to be true. That's not to say you aren't allowed to have your own opinion, I just think you're wrong and I strongly disagree with you. There's still room for someone else to have a different opinion.
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Its not being hostile at all unless you happen to interpret it that way.
On DTF there's a 100% chance of that usually. We're all smart as hell (except Wrath) but man do we have some thin-skinned people around here.
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Its not being hostile at all unless you happen to interpret it that way.
On DTF there's a 100% chance of that usually. We're all smart as hell (except Wrath) but man do we have some thin-skinned people around here.
Eh, I just shrug most things like that off. Nearly everything I say about music causes skydivingninja to threaten to kill me but it doesn't bother me one bit. Its the internet ffs, you might as well as have some thick skin about you.
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In my opinion, in the name of god saved ToT of being the worst for me.
as a side note: I wish people uses "in my opinion" more often....
because saying "in my opinion" after every single statement is practical when its obviously assumed to be an opinion in the first place
I think the act of deference is what people like.
For starters, nobody's doing themself a favour by speaking in absolutes. "Factiness" is a rich spectrum. Dropping the "maybes" and "to an extents" and "as far as I'm concerneds" is like buying a box of crayons, and only EVER using the red one. If you're not qualifying your opinion with opinion words, you're not saying precisely what you mean. It's a very clumsy way to communicate. Speaking in absolutes kind of means they're devalued when you actually do want to state something as a fact. And as that boundary isn't always crystal clear, I think it's only sensible to be precise at all times.
But, more importantly (or hey! less importantly, why not), people are more likely to like you. Sometimes opinions are implicit, and that's fine. If I say "The Ministry of Lost Souls is crap," it's obvious that I don't mean that as an objective fact, sure. But if I say "I'm not fond of the Ministry of Lost Souls," I'm allowing people to disagree with me. It's not hostile. It's not insulting. And it places the blame in my own court. It's not an attack on a work that someone likes, it's an opinion you've taken from said work. Not insulting, not degrading, not vicious.
'Course, sometimes you want to be vicious. But if you're being aggressive, it'd be a bit rich not to expect others to be defensive.
I don't know. I think it's fair to be nitpicky. And I don't think it's fair to dismiss the idea of saying what you mean, as opposed to saying roughly what you mean and expecting everyone else to judge the context correctly. Sometimes it's obvious. Other times it's not.
(Speaking of nitpicks, all "you"s in the above post are totally impersonal. As in "what one means." Not as in "Seventh Son, I am talking directly to you." I'm just far too colloquial for that shizzat, y'all.)
Its not being hostile at all unless you happen to interpret it that way. Which in that case you interpreted what that person said incorrectly.
After a while of discussion with music, I find that just saying what I want to say is far easier than adding an "in my opinion" at the end of it every time I say it. If I think Systematic Chaos is shit, then that's just my opinion. And its pretty obvious its my opinion. Its a strong one, true. But that was the intention, because I strongly think that to be true. That's not to say you aren't allowed to have your own opinion, I just think you're wrong and I strongly disagree with you. There's still room for someone else to have a different opinion.
Oh totally. And nine times out of ten, it is going to be blatantly obvious what you mean. 'Sa bit like exaggerating for effect. Everyone should know that my granddad hasn't been alive for "centuries." That would be newsworthy. He would be in the Guinness Book of Records. But if I said I'd been "waiting for hours," it starts to get a bit cloudy.
Think that avoiding absolutes just enrichens your language, meself. "In my opinion" won't always be appropriate. Better not to rely on people taking it for granted.
Er, or that's me, anyway. God that was a patronising rant. Many 'pologies for all of the above horseshit.
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This album is pure badassery-ness. This Dying Soul is one of the best songs on the album and I don't understand the hate. I just don't understand. :zook2:
Agreed.