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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: El JoNNo on July 31, 2010, 06:10:03 AM
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I'm hoping this will spark some interesting discussion on the concept of Hell. I know Hell has been discussed before but this maybe a chance to figure out which among is going to Hell based on other beliefs; or this could fail horribly and end up being a war. If it does turn out badly I hope this thread get locked.
Most have differing opinions on what mandates enternal dance with the horned one. Some believe that you in order to be sent to Hell you have to be a horrible person and some believe all it takes is to forsake God. So I am an Atheist, an Anti-theist and given the situation I will speak out against the notion of God; however I do not think I am a bad person. That being said according to your beliefs, Am I going to hell?
Don't go easy on me. :tup
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According to some of my Christian friends I'm going to burn for not accepting Jesus Christ as my lord and savior.
that seems excessive
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I also think that is excessive. What is your normal response to this?
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As you might know, I'm a Buddhist. From a Buddhist point of view, the easiest way to define hell and heaven is that where ever there is more suffering, either in this world or any other plane, that place is a hell to those who suffer. And where there is more pleasure or happiness, either in this world or any other worldly existence, that place is a heaven. The idea of one particular ready-made place or a place created by god as heaven and hell is not acceptable to the Buddhist concept. The human realm is a mixture of both pain and happiness, since human beings experience both pain and happiness.
In Buddhism heaven is a temporary place where those who have done good deeds experience more sensual pleasures for a longer period. Hell is another temporary place where evil doers experience more physical and mental suffering. It is not justifiable to believe that such places are permanent. You only stay there for as long as you have karma remaining. Buddhists believe there is no god behind the scene of heaven and hell. Each and every person experiences according to his good and bad karma. Buddhist never try to introduce Buddhism by frightening people through hell-fire or enticing people by pointing to paradise, and they couldn't because hell and heaven is not permanent. Their main idea is character building and mental training.
If you sincerely do not think you are a bad person, then you are probably not a bad person and therefore won't go to a "hell". If you think you are a good person, you might actually "level-up" and be reborn in a better position in the world. However, the only way to enter a heaven is becoming enlightened. To become enlightened you do not necessarily have to be a Buddhist, many Buddhist scholars for example believe that Jesus and some of his followers were enlightened too.
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As you might know, I'm a Buddhist. From a Buddhist point of view, the easiest way to define hell and heaven is that where ever there is more suffering, either in this world or any other plane, that place is a hell to those who suffer. And where there is more pleasure or happiness, either in this world or any other worldly existence, that place is a heaven. The idea of one particular ready-made place or a place created by god as heaven and hell is not acceptable to the Buddhist concept. The human realm is a mixture of both pain and happiness, since human beings experience both pain and happiness.
In Buddhism heaven is a temporary place where those who have done good deeds experience more sensual pleasures for a longer period. Hell is another temporary place where evil doers experience more physical and mental suffering. It is not justifiable to believe that such places are permanent. You only stay there for as long as you have karma remaining. Buddhists believe there is no god behind the scene of heaven and hell. Each and every person experiences according to his good and bad karma. Buddhist never try to introduce Buddhism by frightening people through hell-fire or enticing people by pointing to paradise, and they couldn't because hell and heaven is not permanent. Their main idea is character building and mental training.
If you sincerely do not think you are a bad person, then you are probably not a bad person and therefore won't go to a "hell". If you think you are a good person, you might actually "level-up" and be reborn in a better position in the world. However, the only way to enter a heaven is becoming enlightened. To become enlightened you do not necessarily have to be a Buddhist, many Buddhist scholars for example believe that Jesus and some of his followers were enlightened too.
Interesting variation on the two. If I am understanding correctly Heaven and Hell are each attribted to two things. Heaven 1. a blissful enlightenment, a sort of feeling of elation 2. Reincarnation as someone or something of higher status, not nesseccarily of wealth but of perhaps content? Hell being 1. a hollow existance of perhaps depression, guilt or paranoia 2. Reincarnation into a less desirable person or thing.
I have a few questions for you. Does anyone ever not get reincarnated? What is considered the "highest" reincarnated form? Are you ok with being refered to as an Atheist?
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The Christian Hell or some other Hell?
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The Christian Hell or some other Hell?
Whatever your belief is.
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OK. Well, Christianity is more or less the way for God to help us be saved through Jesus Christ or to live in condemnation. Basically, if you accept Jesus, you're saved from the power of sin, which is death; that means you live in communion with God here on Earth, and death brings you to God. If you don't, the bitter truth is that, yes, you're going to hell.
Of course, non-Christians get hung up on this. I'm sure you do. You WANT to think you're good enough on your own, and that you don't need God. And the prospect that, because you're maybe not good enough and that believing in Jesus would be the only escape from Hell, you just push it all away like that.
You said don't go easy on you. You know all the implications from what is stated here. It sucks, because, like someone pointed out in the other thread, it's just someone trying to warn you of danger that you cannot see. You may not believe it, but I do. I think Hell is serious enough to really mull over in your mind and heart, to see what's really going on, or what could happen when you die. Just a thought.
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James: How do you know with 100% certainty that there is a place where people suffer eternal torment?
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I've always kind of felt that Hell is a device that higher ups use to scare lower members of churches into submission. That being said, if there is some sort of afterlife, than I think that we all end up in the same place, regardless of anything that we do in this life.
EDIT: James, if Christ is the only way to Heaven, then that means that only those that accept him can go to Heaven. So what about the mentally disabled, children, people that grew up in places that don't have Christianity around them, etc. These people go to hell because they are unlucky? They have no way of accepting Christ because of their environment or because of their mental state, so they are punished because of something they cannot control?
Sounds pretty screwed up to me.
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I have mixed feelings about the possibility of any afterlife at all. But even if there is one, EJ, I don't think there is a hell for you to go to. But that's just my opinion.
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I've always kind of felt that Hell is a device that higher ups use to scare lower members of churches into submission. That being said, if there is some sort of afterlife, than I think that we all end up in the same place, regardless of anything that we do in this life.
This. I don't think even the most evil people throughout history deserve an ETERNITY of torment. Just imagine that word for a second. ETERNITY. FOREVER. Even Adolf Hitler doesn't deserve to be tormented that long.
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I've always kind of felt that Hell is a device that higher ups use to scare lower members of churches into submission. That being said, if there is some sort of afterlife, than I think that we all end up in the same place, regardless of anything that we do in this life.
This. I don't think even the most evil people throughout history deserve an ETERNITY of torment. Just imagine that word for a second. ETERNITY. FOREVER. Even Adolf Hitler doesn't deserve to be tormented that long.
The flipside is also equally as fucked up. Imagine for a second that Mother Teresa was not a Christian and that Adolf Hitler had accepted Christ at some point throughout WWII. He would have gone straight to Heaven despite murdering millions of people, and Mother Teresa would have gone to Hell despite helping and saving millions of people. That just doesn't sit right with me, and I can't imagine a just God allowing something like that to occur.
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Interesting variation on the two. If I am understanding correctly Heaven and Hell are each attribted to two things. Heaven 1. a blissful enlightenment, a sort of feeling of elation 2. Reincarnation as someone or something of higher status, not nesseccarily of wealth but of perhaps content? Hell being 1. a hollow existance of perhaps depression, guilt or paranoia 2. Reincarnation into a less desirable person or thing.
Your definitions are almost correct. For 1. you would need to be enlightened. For 2. you would not necessarily have great wealth, since wealth does nothing to make you happy. Foolish wealthy people are not as happy as wise poor people. The person will instead be born with a "personality" that lends itself to becoming enlightened during that lifetime (this is a simplified explanation, or else I would have to go into great detail). Hell would be when someone is born with a "personality" that doesn't lend itself as well to becoming enlightened as it would be otherwise. This doesn't mean there's no chance to become enlightened. Nothing in Buddhism is eternal, everything is temporary.
Does anyone ever not get reincarnated?
What is considered the "highest" reincarnated form?
When someone becomes enlightened they have 2 options when they die. Option 1 is to be reborn here on earth to help other people become enlightened. Spiritual teachers like the Dalai Lama have done this many times (the Dalai Lama is now in his 14th enlightened reincarnation). There are many others who have chosen this path, the Dalai Lama is just the most well-known of them. Option 2 will be explained below.
You could see the universe as an ocean. Someone's "soul" is a wave in that ocean. What we take to be a "soul" or "individual spirit" within us is an illusion. This soul/self continues after the physical death, moving on to other realms. As we gather insight on compassion, love and the inter-dependence of all things, we begin to see the idea of the individual self as an illusion. When, at some point, we are able to "surrender" the ego to the larger as a wave "surrenders" to the ocean, that is the moment of true enlightenment. At that point, there is no "I" for anything to happen to. We return to the ocean as the wave returns, we become one with the ocean. When you die enlightened, you stay one with the ocean instead of being reborn. This is the highest reincarnated form. This form is temporary though, like I explained in my original post. How Buddhists know all this? People skilled at meditation can already become one with the ocean during their lifetimes. I have felt my connection to the Being (or ocean) several times during long meditation sessions. Someone who is enlightened is connected to the source of Being, to the ocean every hour of day, not just during meditation. They are free from suffering. This is the reason why I am a Buddhist. Buddhism is the only "religion" where you can empirically know you are doing the right thing (except for Hinduism which is built on roughly the same concepts).
Are you ok with being refered to as an Atheist?
I suppose so, yes. For many people the definition of an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a God. The goal of Buddhism is to become aware of how the universe works through rituals such as meditation. There is no God to aid Buddhists in that goal. As Buddha said it:
No one saves us but ourselves,
No one can and no one may.
We ourselves must walk the path,
But Buddha has clearly show the way.
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Heaven and Hell are constructs created by humans to answer questions they cant answer.....Where do I go when I die? But they have been exploited, for good and bad, and are used to control behavoir in society.
Essentially, Heaven is a carrot, and Hell is the whip.
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OK. Well, Christianity is more or less the way for God to help us be saved through Jesus Christ or to live in condemnation. Basically, if you accept Jesus, you're saved from the power of sin, which is death; that means you live in communion with God here on Earth, and death brings you to God. If you don't, the bitter truth is that, yes, you're going to hell.
Is it your belief that hell is fire and brimstone, is it merely seperation from God or is it something else entirely?
Of course, non-Christians get hung up on this. I'm sure you do. You WANT to think you're good enough on your own, and that you don't need God. And the prospect that, because you're maybe not good enough and that believing in Jesus would be the only escape from Hell, you just push it all away like that.
Actually my lack of belief in a God has very little (or nothing) to do with, thinking or feeling the need to be good on my own. I'm not pushing anything away, I find the notion of a god improbable and the specific of the Abrahamic God even more so.
You said don't go easy on you. You know all the implications from what is stated here. It sucks, because, like someone pointed out in the other thread, it's just someone trying to warn you of danger that you cannot see. You may not believe it, but I do. I think Hell is serious enough to really mull over in your mind and heart, to see what's really going on, or what could happen when you die. Just a thought.
I thank you for not going easy on me. I have pondered on the consequences of a possible afterlife, probably more so than you would think. My earliest memories of my "Atheism" (I put it into quotations because although I very much doubted the existance of God I may have been convinced otherwise very easily) was at the age of 4 or 5 when my mother would read the bible to me as a bed time story (of course at the time these were picture books). I remember thinking to myself how ridiculous these stories were, Noah's Ark, Samson, and Jonah and the big fish. I've spent about 10 years going to wednesday and sunday church, as a child I payed great attention and new the bible well. If I new it well that meant I got more candy, I was also very interested in all mythology; not just Christian. I pondered greatly on the subject of Heaven and Hell, I have found it to be unbelievable.
I've always kind of felt that Hell is a device that higher ups use to scare lower members of churches into submission. That being said, if there is some sort of afterlife, than I think that we all end up in the same place, regardless of anything that we do in this life.
EDIT: James, if Christ is the only way to Heaven, then that means that only those that accept him can go to Heaven. So what about the mentally disabled, children, people that grew up in places that don't have Christianity around them, etc. These people go to hell because they are unlucky? They have no way of accepting Christ because of their environment or because of their mental state, so they are punished because of something they cannot control?
Sounds pretty screwed up to me.
I agree.
I have mixed feelings about the possibility of any afterlife at all. But even if there is one, EJ, I don't think there is a hell for you to go to. But that's just my opinion.
Do you think possibly a heaven or perhaps a state of energy or something..?
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Interesting variation on the two. If I am understanding correctly Heaven and Hell are each attribted to two things. Heaven 1. a blissful enlightenment, a sort of feeling of elation 2. Reincarnation as someone or something of higher status, not nesseccarily of wealth but of perhaps content? Hell being 1. a hollow existance of perhaps depression, guilt or paranoia 2. Reincarnation into a less desirable person or thing.
Your definitions are almost correct. For 1. you would need to be enlightened. For 2. you would not necessarily have great wealth, since wealth does nothing to make you happy. Foolish wealthy people are not as happy as wise poor people. The person will instead be born with a "personality" that lends itself to becoming enlightened during that lifetime (this is a simplified explanation, or else I would have to go into great detail). Hell would be when someone is born with a "personality" that doesn't lend itself as well to becoming enlightened as it would be otherwise. This doesn't mean there's no chance to become enlightened. Nothing in Buddhism is eternal, everything is temporary.
Does anyone ever not get reincarnated?
What is considered the "highest" reincarnated form?
When someone becomes enlightened they have 2 options when they die. Option 1 is to be reborn here on earth to help other people become enlightened. Spiritual teachers like the Dalai Lama have done this many times (the Dalai Lama is now in his 14th enlightened reincarnation). There are many others who have chosen this path, the Dalai Lama is just the most well-known of them. Option 2 will be explained below.
You could see the universe as an ocean. Someone's "soul" is a wave in that ocean. What we take to be a "soul" or "individual spirit" within us is an illusion. This soul/self continues after the physical death, moving on to other realms. As we gather insight on compassion, love and the inter-dependence of all things, we begin to see the idea of the individual self as an illusion. When, at some point, we are able to "surrender" the ego to the larger as a wave "surrenders" to the ocean, that is the moment of true enlightenment. At that point, there is no "I" for anything to happen to. We return to the ocean as the wave returns, we become one with the ocean. When you die enlightened, you stay one with the ocean instead of being reborn. This is the highest reincarnated form. This form is temporary though, like I explained in my original post. How Buddhists know all this? People skilled at meditation can already become one with the ocean during their lifetimes. I have felt my connection to the Being (or ocean) several times during long meditation sessions. Someone who is enlightened is connected to the source of Being, to the ocean every hour of day, not just during meditation. They are free from suffering. This is the reason why I am a Buddhist. Buddhism is the only "religion" where you can empirically know you are doing the right thing (except for Hinduism which is built on roughly the same concepts).
Are you ok with being refered to as an Atheist?
I suppose so, yes. For many people the definition of an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a God. The goal of Buddhism is to become aware of how the universe works through rituals such as meditation. There is no God to aid Buddhists in that goal. As Buddha said it:
No one saves us but ourselves,
No one can and no one may.
We ourselves must walk the path,
But Buddha has clearly show the way.
Thanks for the lengthing yet no doubt very brief explanantion. It has been a while since I have read anything at all about buddhism.
Heaven and Hell are constructs created by humans to answer questions they cant answer.....Where do I go when I die? But they have been exploited, for good and bad, and are used to control behavoir in society.
Essentially, Heaven is a carrot, and Hell is the whip.
:lol
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Hell aint a bad place. Hell is from here to eternity.
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really good question, el jonno, and a thousand times more sobering than I can comprehend.
As far as Christianity is concerned, the term for hell is gehenna which referred to a public dump outside of jerusalem. it was a horrific place where they would take dead prisoners and bodies of the outcast. the constant burning, the putrid smell and the sight of the neighborhood garbage was a deplorable scene. this is the word Jesus used to reference when he was urging people towards righteousness. He almost used it as a parent would urge their children toward doing right in the face of consequences.
In the bigger picture of christianity, hell is not somewhere we go as much as it is somewhere that we are saved from because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ. Jesus went down to hell for us so that we would not have to go.
Someone asked about various mental disabilities, etc....Scripture refers repeatedly to the scene of judgment day. I believe judgment day will be exactly that. A day in which the Judge of all the earth will make a judgment.
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really good question, el jonno, and a thousand times more sobering than I can comprehend.
I'm not sure I understand, I may be taking the word "sobering" to literal.
As far as Christianity is concerned, the term for hell is gehenna which referred to a public dump outside of jerusalem. it was a horrific place where they would take dead prisoners and bodies of the outcast. the constant burning, the putrid smell and the sight of the neighborhood garbage was a deplorable scene. this is the word Jesus used to reference when he was urging people towards righteousness. He almost used it as a parent would urge their children toward doing right in the face of consequences.
I completely forgot about that, it was a part of Jewish folklore, where the real nasty souls went.
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According to some of my Christian friends I'm going to burn for not accepting Jesus Christ as my lord and savior.
that seems excessive
Doesn't stop all Southern Baptists (I've even had teachers from elementary school do this to me) in my area from hating and spitting on me anytime I try to speak to one.
But on-topic:
Am I going to hell? Who knows. I don't know, maybe. Its something I've thought about a lot. What is hell even? Is it some place where the big red guy takes bad souls into a lake of fire and torments them forever? Or maybe its some kind of control device to scare people? Or is it merely a metaphor of some kind?
Those are all possibilities, but I tend to look towards the last one. I've viewed hell as metaphor instead of an actual place. Same goes for heaven. I don't think these places physically exist at all. Rather, they represent different sides of humanity, the good and the bad. Order and Chaos, Heaven and Hell.
Now, one issue I have with the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell is that because of what someone else did, I'm automatically evil. I don't get any say in that at all. No matter what, I'm a bad guy unless I hand myself over to Jesus. Personally (And I mean no offense to any Christians here), I call bullshit on that. It seems like no matter what, humanity is destined to fail, with no way out. Honestly, I view that as a nihilistic and rather hollow (And misanthropic as well) way to live. To live believing that what you are is evil and bad and the only way to ever achieve happiness is to give your soul over to Jesus so you can forever be a servant to God? I don't see the happiness in being born only to be a servant. Maybe I'm just retarded. Because I don't see it. I see happiness in being what I want to be while hurting as few people as possible. I see happiness being an individual, and not a slave to God. I don't exactly worship Satan either though. I want to be myself, I don't want to be like either God or Satan (Heaven and Hell). I just want to be myself and live happy like that. Sure, I'm going to fuck up every now and then. But I'm human, so that's expected. And I like that. And as far as I'm concerned, perfection leads only to madness. Those that try to achieve perfection only become insane. Perfection is boring. I don't want to be perfect like God. Its completely predictable. I don't like it. I like life here on Earth. I like being an imperfect human being. No, I love it. There's pain in it, yes, but the pain is necessary. Its good in a sense. You have to take good with the bad. Without evil, good can't exist, and the opposite is also true. There's nothing to compare it to without knowing what the opposite is like. That's why I call bullshit on the idea of Heaven and Hell. That's why I don't think there is "Eternal Happiness" because if all you know is happiness then you cannot know pain. And without pain, the concept of happiness is completely moot and all you are is a hallow being. I don't think even God can change that. So I'll take both. There are times I'm good, and times when I'm evil. I'll take that in stride and be proud of that. That's because I'm a human fucking being, and I think that's something to be prideful of, not to be ashamed of.
tl;dr Heathen justifying why he's going to hell, etc.
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Sing it brother! :lol
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I'd just like to answer the original post. Yes, you are all going to hell.
Well...according to Mel Gibson anyway. Unless any of you are sinless vatican 1 catholics.
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I don't understand why some many non-believers are obsessed with this question. If you accept Jesus Christ as the primary guide for your life and the redeemer of the world, then of course you think other people should, too. If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your primary guide and redeemer, why would you care so much about what those who do accept him think?
What is the non-believer expectation here? That one day a Christian is going to come up and say "Yes, I adhere to a religion that says that the world and all its people need to be redeemed by the son of good. But it's cool for you to join our religion even if you don't believe any of that."?
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I don't understand why some many non-believers are obsessed with this question.
I dont see anywhere in this discussion, or in the world in general, where non-believers are "obsessed" with this question anymore than any other group.
The real question is "what happens after we die", and there is no monopoly on that question. You dont have to believe, or not believe, you just have to be human and question the world around you.
If you accept Jesus Christ as the primary guide for your life and the redeemer of the world, then of course you think other people should, too. If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your primary guide and redeemer, why would you care so much about what those who do accept him think?
Why cant both (believers and non-believers) question what happens after death, think that their views are correct, and think other people should agree with their views? What is good for the goose....
What is the non-believer expectation here? That one day a Christian is going to come up and say "Yes, I adhere to a religion that says that the world and all its people need to be redeemed by the son of good. But it's cool for you to join our religion even if you don't believe any of that."?
I am not sure where this comes from, as I am pretty sure there is no such expectation from any non-believer.
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really good question, el jonno, and a thousand times more sobering than I can comprehend.
I'm not sure I understand, I may be taking the word "sobering" to literal.
I only meant that I want to approach the concept with deep sorrow and caution. because I believe in the biblical concept of hell, I believe that there is strong potential (only the Judge ultimately knows) that those who reject God will experience hell. this belief causes great pain for me to think about, and is one of the main reasons I try to share my conviction with as many as possible. furthermore, assuming that hell is a real concept, it is something that I do not want to approach flippantly. inasmuch as some will choose hell, it is a fearful thing indeed.
as seventh son noted, there is no question at all whether heaven and hell are metaphorical. as I noted earlier, the very term was a reference to a local dump. surely no one thought that Jesus was warning of being thrown into the local dump as punishment. is it metaphorical in the sense that there is no eternal reward and/or place of justice - I would argue absolutely not.
While this is not an argument to use regarding hell, is there not some sense of comfort in the fact that the Osama's of the world (assuming he never gets caught in this life), or the sadistic muderers or the pedophilic rapists, etc who never get punished in this life still have a bigger court to face?
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really good question, el jonno, and a thousand times more sobering than I can comprehend.
I'm not sure I understand, I may be taking the word "sobering" to literal.
I only meant that I want to approach the concept with deep sorrow and caution. because I believe in the biblical concept of hell, I believe that there is strong potential (only the Judge ultimately knows) that those who reject God will experience hell. this belief causes great pain for me to think about, and is one of the main reasons I try to share my conviction with as many as possible. furthermore, assuming that hell is a real concept, it is something that I do not want to approach flippantly. inasmuch as some will choose hell, it is a fearful thing indeed.
as seventh son noted, there is no question at all whether heaven and hell are metaphorical. as I noted earlier, the very term was a reference to a local dump. surely no one thought that Jesus was warning of being thrown into the local dump as punishment. is it metaphorical in the sense that there is no eternal reward and/or place of justice - I would argue absolutely not.
While this is not an argument to use regarding hell, is there not some sense of comfort in the fact that the Osama's of the world (assuming he never gets caught in this life), or the sadistic muderers or the pedophilic rapists, etc who never get punished in this life still have a bigger court to face?
For the last comment, not really. As far as I"m concerned, once someone is dead, they are dead. There is no point for me to wish further suffering upon them despite what they did in this life. To wish for them to suffer in the afterlife reeks of hateful spite to me. Honestly, what happens to them beyond this realm isn't really my concern, nor my business as far as I'm concerned.
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really good question, el jonno, and a thousand times more sobering than I can comprehend.
I'm not sure I understand, I may be taking the word "sobering" to literal.
I only meant that I want to approach the concept with deep sorrow and caution. because I believe in the biblical concept of hell, I believe that there is strong potential (only the Judge ultimately knows) that those who reject God will experience hell. this belief causes great pain for me to think about, and is one of the main reasons I try to share my conviction with as many as possible. furthermore, assuming that hell is a real concept, it is something that I do not want to approach flippantly. inasmuch as some will choose hell, it is a fearful thing indeed.
as seventh son noted, there is no question at all whether heaven and hell are metaphorical. as I noted earlier, the very term was a reference to a local dump. surely no one thought that Jesus was warning of being thrown into the local dump as punishment. is it metaphorical in the sense that there is no eternal reward and/or place of justice - I would argue absolutely not.
While this is not an argument to use regarding hell, is there not some sense of comfort in the fact that the Osama's of the world (assuming he never gets caught in this life), or the sadistic muderers or the pedophilic rapists, etc who never get punished in this life still have a bigger court to face?
For the last comment, not really. As far as I"m concerned, once someone is dead, they are dead. There is no point for me to wish further suffering upon them despite what they did in this life. To wish for them to suffer in the afterlife reeks of hateful spite to me. Honestly, what happens to them beyond this realm isn't really my concern, nor my business as far as I'm concerned.
It is too bad that they will never have to answer for their crimes but such is life, all we can do is attempt to right wrongs in a just manner. I agree with Seven Son in that death is the worst of all punishments and I would not want anyone to endure unending nor thousands of years of unbearable torture.
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I don't understand why some many non-believers are obsessed with this question. If you accept Jesus Christ as the primary guide for your life and the redeemer of the world, then of course you think other people should, too. If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your primary guide and redeemer, why would you care so much about what those who do accept him think?
What is the non-believer expectation here? That one day a Christian is going to come up and say "Yes, I adhere to a religion that says that the world and all its people need to be redeemed by the son of good. But it's cool for you to join our religion even if you don't believe any of that."?
I am in no way obsessed with this question. I thought it might spark good discussion and so far it hasn't disappointed.
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Wow the last 6 posters don't know how to use quotes properly :lol :biggrin:
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Wow the last 6 posters don't know how to use quotes properly :lol :biggrin:
I used them properly, just someone originally fucked them up. :|
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I also think that is excessive. What is your normal response to this?
My response is generally along the lines of this:
Prove to me that your faith is, without a doubt, the right one, and I will agree that I go to hell. However, we both know you cannot prove that beyond a doubt. Do not tell me, then, what is and isn't right; where I'm going or where I'm not going, because I don't know anymore than you do. I accept that you have different beliefs than I, and I than you, but I don't know what's going to happen when we die so I won't tell you where you're going
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I have mixed feelings about the possibility of any afterlife at all. But even if there is one, EJ, I don't think there is a hell for you to go to. But that's just my opinion.
Do you think possibly a heaven or perhaps a state of energy or something..?
I don't know about a state of energy - that's a little too sci-fi for me :lol (although in honesty, I cannot discount the possibility - I've read too many novels and seen too many films :biggrin:). I would guess a heaven would be possible. It could also be possible that anyone "going to hell" would just be completely destroyed, sent to oblivion.
Either way, it doesn't matter very much to me.
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According to my beliefs, you're not.
I'm agnostic. I don't know if there is a god, I can't know if there is a god, and it doesn't influence my life, but if there is I don't think he'd discriminate on whether you worshipped him in life or no. That's my belief. There might be, but I'm not going to concern myself by agonising over it. Let's face it, there are so many different options and messages and conflicting signals and then it depends on how you're brought up and what you experience... I don't think any god would resent a wrong turning. It's clearly not ill-meaning, and it seems somewhat selfish to say that "I know it's confusing, but get it wrong and you're going to hell." That's very human. My belief is that he'd be above all that.
Far as I'm concerned, as long as you try and live your life in a positive way, you've got as good a chance as anyone. If there even is a chance. Who knows!
Truth is, you should make your moral decisions based on a personal sense of justice rather than on promise of a reward anyway, and I think most people do, so hey! Live your own life! If it happens, you'll get your just desserts. A higher power would be the ultimate authority on fairness. Meander about in your own way and you'll get what you deserve, if anything. And I think it's impossible to justify that a good person could be cast asunder for being faithless.
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It just goes back to what I have said before. I like my omnipotent god to be more enlightened than me. I wont disown my daughter if she didnt accept me, revere me, or follow my rules.
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some other Hell?
Citizen's Bank Park (https://mlb.mlb.com/phi/ballpark/index.jsp)
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I've always believed there are atheists in heaven. I think all the people worship God in one way or another, even atheists. Why? By doing good actions. If you make the people that are around you happy, you're already pleasing God, even if you don't believe in him, because God only counts good actions. Accepting God as your Saviour is IMO a metaphor to say Accepting a good-willing lifestyle in order to make yourself and the people around you live in harmony. I mean, if an atheist goes to heaven it'd be like "So yeah, you were an incredible human being, you can enter. And BTW God exists. He's over there *waves hands*". As childish as it may sound I think that's the way heaven is. However I can't fully comprehend the concept of Eternal Joy in Heaven.
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I've always believed there are atheists in heaven. I think all the people worship God in one way or another, even atheists. Why? By doing good actions. If you make the people that are around you happy, you're already pleasing God, even if you don't believe in him, because God only counts good actions. Accepting God as your Saviour is IMO a metaphor to say Accepting a good-willing lifestyle in order to make yourself and the people around you live in harmony. I mean, if an atheist goes to heaven it'd be like "So yeah, you were an incredible human being, you can enter. And BTW God exists. He's over there *waves hands*". As childish as it may sound I think that's the way heaven is. However I can't fully comprehend the concept of Eternal Joy in Heaven.
That'd be nice.
But normally my answer to the original question would be "yes, I'll see you there", if hell does exist.
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Before answering the question directly, a few notes on hell in general. The context of what few Biblical descriptions there are seem to be symbolic rather than literal descriptions, best I can tell. I personally don't believe there is a literal description, so I don't believe we can truly know what it is like. But the universal theme is that it is a place of eternal torment for all who have sinned (including Satan; the image of Satan being in control in hell is not Biblical at all; he is to be punished there as well). There is no joy or happiness there whatsoever.
The short version of who is going there and who isn't is this: God set out the rules for mankind from the beginning. Those who follow the rules perfectly are not subject to eternal punishment. But the penalty for sinning is eternal punishment. God being completely just must enforce this punishment. It is not a punishment because mankind is inherently evil, as was suggested in a post above, but because each of us has in fact sinned.
The flip side of that is that while God is 100% just, he is also 100% merciful and offers the free gift of salvation from that punishment for any who accept that Jesus paid the price that anyone who sins must pay (prior to Jesus paying that price, part of the faith that people were asked to have is that God had already set in place the plan where sins would eventually be paid for; as the saying goes, once Jesus paid the price, it was not only for those who would believe in the future, but also for those who had believed in the past--but that's a subject for another thread if people want to dig deeper into this idea). It is a free gift that is given for all, and all we must do is accept the gift.
Moving on to answer the question (again, this is the short version), as Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." (John 14:6) In other words, Jesus is the only way to be saved from Hell. As far as what we must do to accept that salvation, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)
Again, that's the short version and is presented to be informative, not persuasive. But, EJ, you can read that and draw your own conclusions. My personal wish is that everyone I come into contact with choose to avoid Hell. But I am under no delusion that everyone will. We're all free to make our own choices in that regard, so that's fine.
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The concept of hell always struck me as a bit too "pagan". Definitely not very compatible with an omniscient and loving god.
I mean, the very fact that hell would exist essentially implies condonement by God of such a thing.
rumborak
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I mean, the very fact that hell would exist essentially implies condonement by God of such a thing.
rumborak
Yes, of course it does. How else could he be just if there were not a means of carrying out justice for violating the rules?
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What I'm saying is, given that the devil and hell are so intimately tied, the condonement of hell is also an condonement of the devil's practices for tempting people. So, hell is a bit of God's "sting operation". And sting operations aren't something I would call "loving".
Why would a loving god set you up to potentially fail?
rumborak
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Oh, I see what you are saying. No, I don't think there is any implied or condonement of the devil's practices in tempting people. He is permitted to do what he does as any free moral agent is also permitted to do what he/she wants. But there are also consequences that require punishment, and the devil is also subject to that same punishment as I mentioned above. I'm not sure where the belief arose that the devil is somehow given the authority to run hell and mete out punishment, but that is not a biblically supported view whatsoever. By the same token, humanity is not "set up to fail" in any sense other than the fact that we are selfish enough to indeed choose wrong instead of right. But, again, the loving, merciful part of God also offers salvation from that consequence for any who will accept it. So there is no sort of "moral failure" on God's part, which is what I am reading into your post although you did not use that exact terminology.
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If the devil is currently in hell, how is he going around manipulating and tempting people to do bad? Or do you not believe that?
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The details of that are a bit vague in the Bible. Some believe he is there, but still has the ability to tempt people. Some believe he is not yet there and will not be cast into hell until the final judgment. I think there is room for either interpretation, but that the latter seems to be much better supported, in my opinion. All I can say for certain is that he does have the ability.
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How can you say that "for certain"? I think you're a bit indiscriminate about the term "absolute certainty" when it comes to religious matters, bosk.
rumborak
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Oh, come on. This isn't a thread about the certainty of faith. This thread is directed at those with a religious belief regarding hell, which assumes a certain faith. As you are already aware, part of my faith assumes the accuracy of Bibilcal scripture. That is assumed in the discussion. With that assumption in place, scripture is quite clear that Satan does indeed have the ability to tempt us. But as far as the details of how that works, which is Zook's question, the Bible is not clear so I cannot give the "how" without a bit of speculation on my part.
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I think what just irks me when reading your posts is that you use your own perceived scriptural certainty as a discussion argument, as in "well, this we know as a fact". I don't think the nature and capabilities of the devil are anywhere near certain as you claim it to be.
rumborak
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:corn
I hope the good guy wins this one. The good guy in my opinion.
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@rumby: I'm not exactly clear about what you are objecting to.
1. If you are objecting to me knowing anything "for certain" simply because you do not believe anything claimed by faith can be certain, I understand that, but that is a subject we have discussed at length, and that is off topic for this thread. We can continue to have that discussion, but let's not clog up this thread with that issue because, again, it is assumed in the OP that those of any religious faith are answering from a belief that their religious system is true.
2. If you are objecting that scripture is not clear as to whether the devil can tempt us, the Bible is crystal clear that he can.
3. If you are objecting that scriputure is not clear as to the "how," I agree, and I acknowledged such in my post.
Can you clarify for me which one you are getting at?
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My point is number 2. Sure, the Bible says the Devil can tempt us, but to what extent and where, that is completely vague. In fact, it's so much anyone's guess that the gamut runs from epilepsy to earthquakes of what has been ascribed to the Devil. It goes as far as that it's essentially a knee-jerk reaction of ultra-Christians to assign the Devil's work to anything that pisses them off.
So, I take issue with the notion in your post that the capabilities of the devil are crystal-clear and figured out.
rumborak
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Oh, I see. I guess I view that as kind of point # 2.5. Actually, my answer to that would be more akin to what I said in point #3. I agree with you on at least two counts: (1) scripture is not entirely clear as to exactly to what extent and where; and (2) yes, people sometimes ascribe everything under the sun to the devil and, yes, they really shouldn't do that because, as you said, it is anybody's guess whether that is the devil's work or something else. I really wasn't trying to imply anything more than the fact that the Bible is clear that the devil does in fact tempt us. The how, why, where, to what extent, etc., isn't really gone into very much, other than the fact that he tempts us to sin. There are some specific instances we can see if his work in scripture, but other than those examples, we don't really know much. I agree with you that people who say otherwise go too far. I try not to do that myself, but I'm sure I still do at times.
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Before answering the question directly, a few notes on hell in general. The context of what few Biblical descriptions there are seem to be symbolic rather than literal descriptions, best I can tell. I personally don't believe there is a literal description, so I don't believe we can truly know what it is like. But the universal theme is that it is a place of eternal torment for all who have sinned (including Satan; the image of Satan being in control in hell is not Biblical at all; he is to be punished there as well). There is no joy or happiness there whatsoever.
The short version of who is going there and who isn't is this: God set out the rules for mankind from the beginning. Those who follow the rules perfectly are not subject to eternal punishment. But the penalty for sinning is eternal punishment. God being completely just must enforce this punishment. It is not a punishment because mankind is inherently evil, as was suggested in a post above, but because each of us has in fact sinned.
The flip side of that is that while God is 100% just, he is also 100% merciful and offers the free gift of salvation from that punishment for any who accept that Jesus paid the price that anyone who sins must pay (prior to Jesus paying that price, part of the faith that people were asked to have is that God had already set in place the plan where sins would eventually be paid for; as the saying goes, once Jesus paid the price, it was not only for those who would believe in the future, but also for those who had believed in the past--but that's a subject for another thread if people want to dig deeper into this idea). It is a free gift that is given for all, and all we must do is accept the gift.
Moving on to answer the question (again, this is the short version), as Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." (John 14:6) In other words, Jesus is the only way to be saved from Hell. As far as what we must do to accept that salvation, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)
Again, that's the short version and is presented to be informative, not persuasive. But, EJ, you can read that and draw your own conclusions. My personal wish is that everyone I come into contact with choose to avoid Hell. But I am under no delusion that everyone will. We're all free to make our own choices in that regard, so that's fine.
My problem with all of that is that humanity is automatically evil, something I vehemently object. I've always liked to believe that humanity is not 100% evil, rather a mix of good and evil. After all, as far as I'm concerned, the world is made up of opposing forces. Good and evil, happy and sad, love and hatred, etc. Its simply impossible to be completely good, we're humans. Its in our nature to fuck up now and then. Add to that, I personally think that good and evil need each other to exist. I don't really think its possible to completely eliminate evil no matter what, because I think every living entity carries evil in its heart, and if there does exist a God, then he has some bit of evil in his heart as well. That being said, I think the opposite also applies. I think there is good in everyone's heart to some extent, including both God and Satan, should either one exist. Its just not possible for someone to be perfectly on one side or the other to me. Now, some use good or evil a bit more than the other, which is quite obvious in what we see out in the world, but at the same time I think both presences are there in every human being, and spiritual entity that may exist.
And I suppose that's the primary reason why I reject Christianity, is the whole "Its either Heaven or Hell, no choices". As far as I'm concerned, it is not possible to be completely on one side, since both exist in the human heart. You'd have to completely eliminate one or the other, but doing so removes one's humanity in my opinion. And to me, I would never want to lose that, not in a million billion years. Its a very precious thing to me. To lose one's humanity is the equivalent of losing one's own soul as far as I'm concerned. Nobody is perfect, but I don't think I'd want to be perfect. Perfection would be tantamount to boredom and that would be no fun.
That's what I truly believe. That is my own spirituality. I am not a Christian and I never have ever considered myself one at all, but I do feel like this is what I actually believe, deep down. I look at Christianity, and I just can't accept it. So I'll just go with what my heart and soul tells me is real, and it tells me Christianity isn't real. I mean no offense to the Christians on this forum, none at all. I'm sure you believe it with everything you have, just as I believe what I believe. But I guess... I'm just tired of being vindicated for choosing the unpopular choice (I mean in real life, the Christians of this forum are anything but hostile :) ). Hell, I could just feign being a Christian and I'd be liked a lot more where I live, but that would just be lying to everyone I know, and I know that isn't right. So if my punishment for choosing my own path is an eternity in Hell, then I'll accept that because if there is a God that wishes to punish me for choosing what I feel is real, then I have no desire to be with that god at all.
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I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.
rumborak
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I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.
rumborak
This. Morality is no exception to the subjectiveness of basically everything.
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I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.
rumborak
Yes, but when you believe that good and evil is defined by the one true god, it is no longer subjective, despite who disagrees.
Also, @ 7th son. It's not that christians think we go to hell because we're 100% evil, but because we're not 100% good. Even .01% evil is enough to keep us out of heaven with out god or jesus' help.
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I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.
rumborak
Yes, but when you believe that good and evil is defined by the one true god, it is no longer subjective, despite who disagrees.
Also, @ 7th son. It's not that christians think we go to hell because we're 100% evil, but because we're not 100% good. Even .01% evil is enough to keep us out of heaven with out god or jesus' help.
I get that part, but I can't help but believe that even this God has some evil in it. After all, what is good without evil? One cannot exist without the other. So a place that's 100% good, just doesn't exist in my mind. Sure, Earth has its troubles, but I much prefer it to a place where you have to be perfect to get into, an impossible feat.
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I find the whole artificial dichotomy of good vs. evil ridiculous. One man's good is another man's evil.
rumborak
Yes, but when you believe that good and evil is defined by the one true god, it is no longer subjective, despite who disagrees.
Also, @ 7th son. It's not that christians think we go to hell because we're 100% evil, but because we're not 100% good. Even .01% evil is enough to keep us out of heaven with out god or jesus' help.
I get that part, but I can't help but believe that even this God has some evil in it. After all, what is good without evil? One cannot exist without the other. So a place that's 100% good, just doesn't exist in my mind. Sure, Earth has its troubles, but I much prefer it to a place where you have to be perfect to get into, an impossible feat.
Plus, Earth has Porcupine Tree.
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I get that part, but I can't help but believe that even this God has some evil in it. After all, what is good without evil? One cannot exist without the other. So a place that's 100% good, just doesn't exist in my mind. Sure, Earth has its troubles, but I much prefer it to a place where you have to be perfect to get into, an impossible feat.
1. It's not a theme park bud. It's being in the presence of god, which supplies the ultimate bliss.
2. It's an impossible feat for humans, that's why jesus died, to redeem them. Thus, people who believe that are giving themselves into salvation that allows them into heaven.
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I get that part, but I can't help but believe that even this God has some evil in it. After all, what is good without evil? One cannot exist without the other. So a place that's 100% good, just doesn't exist in my mind. Sure, Earth has its troubles, but I much prefer it to a place where you have to be perfect to get into, an impossible feat.
1. It's not a theme park bud. It's being in the presence of god, which supplies the ultimate bliss.
2. It's an impossible feat for humans, that's why jesus died, to redeem them. Thus, people who believe that are giving themselves into salvation that allows them into heaven.
1. I question the notion that god is the ultimate source of bliss. If he is the creator of all, then he creates good as well as evil. It goes both ways as far as I'm concerned.
2. I'm not sure I want into Heaven if its as described.
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Then heaven and hell do not apply to you and there is no reason to participate.
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"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)
So, Hitler has a better chance of getting into heaven than me, a benevolent atheist. Correct?
Also, Bosk, you believe that Christ cares more for the rituals of Christianity (baptism, mass, communion, etc...) than the actual acts of the people?
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1. It's not a theme park bud. It's being in the presence of god, which supplies the ultimate bliss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mbBbFH9fAg&feature=avmsc2
Like this?
rumborak
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So, Hitler has a better chance of getting into heaven than me, a benevolent atheist. Correct?
??? I'm not sure how you could get that from anything I said.
Also, Bosk, you believe that Christ cares more for the rituals of Christianity (baptism, mass, communion, etc...) than the actual acts of the people?
1. Mass and communion have nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. 2. But to answer the more general point of your question, yes and no. God requires obedience. His justice will not allow him to grant leniency to the willfully disobedient. The problem with humanity is that we at times will choose disobedience. The "flipside" of God's justice, so to speak, i.e., God's grace, allows forgiveness. To the extent a "ritual," as you put it, is something God commanded, it is indeed important. Baptism, for example, is a necessary act that puts us into a relationship with God whereby we can be forgiven. But I think possibly what you are referring to as "the actual acts of the people" is basically whether we act like "good humans," so to speak, correct? And that is also important. I can't say which is more important because my reading of scripture leads me to believe they are equally important and that we should not neglect one over the other. As one passage puts it, "and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8) And there are tons of passages about basically just being good people to one another. I guess the reason that does not get emphasized in these sorts of discussions is that it is already assumed that that is something we should do, so why bother debating it? Again, I would say both are of equal importance. Where does that fit in terms of looking at someone and telling whether they are "in or out," so to speak? I don't think we are supposed to make that judgment. I think it is a Christian's job to point others to what we are supposed to do, not to try to look at someone's life and make the judgment ourselves about whether or not they are okay. Anyhow, there were a couple of tangents, but hopefully that answered your question.
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So, Hitler has a better chance of getting into heaven than me, a benevolent atheist. Correct?
??? I'm not sure how you could get that from anything I said.
You have to accept Jesus as your lord and savior and have gone through the rituals, no? Sorry if i misread....
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If you are condemned to and consequently spend an eternity in hell, then there exists no time where you could have committed the sin that got you there in the first place.
In any case, just like we base our human idea of god on our own poltical leaders and systems (the king of kings) we based our concepts of heaven and hell on our known systems of reward and punishment. To assume that an omnipotent entity such as god even has a need of a crude concept such as a punishment or justice is unfounded IMO.
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If you are condemned to and consequently spend an eternity in hell, then there exists no time where you could have committed the sin that got you there in the first place.
Laws of universe don't apply outside of the universe, me thinks.
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My point is number 2. Sure, the Bible says the Devil can tempt us, but to what extent and where, that is completely vague. In fact, it's so much anyone's guess that the gamut runs from epilepsy to earthquakes of what has been ascribed to the Devil. It goes as far as that it's essentially a knee-jerk reaction of ultra-Christians to assign the Devil's work to anything that pisses them off.
So, I take issue with the notion in your post that the capabilities of the devil are crystal-clear and figured out.
They are crystal clear. Look at this:
Ephesians 6:10-18:
(10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. (11) Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; (15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; (16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: while using your loins of defeating the devil (18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and hi watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints
What isn't perfectly clear about the bolded part? Oh, and I have to disagree with you, bosk, about there being a literal description of Hell. When Jesus talks about the rich man and the poor man in Luke, Hell is described pretty clearly.
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Oh, and I have to disagree with you, bosk, about there being a literal description of Hell. When Jesus talks about the rich man and the poor man in Luke, Hell is described pretty clearly.
Not really. I think Jesus could easily be referring to 'Gehenna', if it is as Yesh described it.
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Oh, and I have to disagree with you, bosk, about there being a literal description of Hell. When Jesus talks about the rich man and the poor man in Luke, Hell is described pretty clearly.
We'll just have to disagree then. I'm just not sure is all, so I can't be dogmatic about whether or not that is a literal description. The story itself appears to be a parable more than a description of a literal event, or at least that is how it reads to me. And the point isn't about whether or not that is a literal description of hell. The point is that it is what we do here in this life that matters, with perhaps the subpoint being that whatever hell literally is, it's bad and you don't want to go there.
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I disagree with that. Jesus says that the rich man dies and wakes up in Hell.
Luke 16:19-31
[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
[27] "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
[29] "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
[30] " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
[31] "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
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bosk, sorry, I was replying to the poster before you, not your last post (with the above post ^). In reply to your last post, though - okay, I can agree that it's more important to just not want to go there, regardless of what it's "really" like. I actually don't think the rich man/ poor man story is a parable, but it's a difference of opinion. I get your point, though.
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I disagree with that. Jesus says that the rich man dies and wakes up in Hell.
Luke 16:19-31
[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
[27] "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
[29] "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
[30] " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
[31] "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
actually, the term in the language is hades. it was a reference to the greeks idea of the place of the dead. it does sometimes seem to be used somewhat synonymous with hell (since death is where we enter into heaven/hell), but it is more accurately "grave" or "death" as it is rendered in I Cor 15:55
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If there's a hell, I hope it's like what Dante described because there is nothing more relaxing on a hot eternity day than being buried head first in shit.
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In the context of Luke, it's definitely not referring to the grave. It says pretty clearly that the rich man died.... and woke up.... so, there was a transition from this life to the afterlife. It also describes angels carrying the poor man. I'm not trying to start a debate with you, yeshua4, just making an observation. What do you think about this?
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In the context of Luke, it's definitely not referring to the grave. It says pretty clearly that the rich man died.... and woke up.... so, there was a transition from this life to the afterlife. It also describes angels carrying the poor man. I'm not trying to start a debate with you, yeshua4, just making an observation. What do you think about this?
yeah, this is one of those questions that people have been looking at for centuries. the reality is that we are talking about a spiritual world, which is something we know nothing about, which is all the more reason to approach the subject with caution. I only meant that Hades is the spiritual side of the grave. it was considered by the greeks as a place where the dead souls went. The impression I get in Scripture is that there is a slight distinction between gehenna and hades, perhaps though only as slight as the distinction between soul and spirit :biggrin:
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In fact, it's so much anyone's guess that the gamut runs from epilepsy to earthquakes of what has been ascribed to the Devil. It goes as far as that it's essentially a knee-jerk reaction of ultra-Christians to assign the Devil's work to anything that pisses them off.
So, I take issue with the notion in your post that the capabilities of the devil are crystal-clear and figured out.
They are crystal clear. Look at this:
Ephesians 6:10-18:
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
What isn't perfectly clear about the bolded part?
Err, what is clear here? How do you decide from this quote whether an earthquake was the devil's doing or not?
rumborak
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For me it's very simple:
No god = no heaven = no hell
I havn't read the entire thread and this is all I've got...
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I have so much trouble getting over the thought of Hell. Just imagine suffering and having nothing to look forward to but more suffering for EVER. The thought of eternal punishment is almost inconceivable. Then ask, even though we cheat each other and tell lies, are we deserving of being punished like that for simply being thrown into this world head first and doubting the words of those who are only simple, confused humans such as ourselves?
You have to wonder why "God" would expect us to believe without doubt the words of people who were thrown into this world just as confused and unaware as we ourselves were. Existence for the blink of an eye determining your life for eternity simply refuses to make any sense to me, unless under the assumption that god is just as confused as us and tends to trample on those weaker than him the same way that we do.
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I can agree with the 1st paregraph... just the thought of that is horrible! it doesn't matter if it is or isn't real.
I really do think eternity sucks, even if it's as heavinly as some people claim it is.
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If God created me, then he naturally created the parameters of my thought, as well as the observable world around me that further influences my thought; therefore, it wouldn't make sense for God to punish me when he is responsible for my beliefs... unless he's a sadist. That's the way I see it.
Also, I do find it strikingly odd that many of those who believe non-believers are going to Hell seem rather neutral to that "fact", as if they don't grasp the concept of BURNING IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. People go on and on about how you should respect peoples' beliefs, but our beliefs during life are infinitismally small relative to eternity.
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If God created me, then he naturally created the parameters of my thought, as well as the observable world around me that further influences my thought; therefore, it wouldn't make sense for God to punish me when he is responsible for my beliefs... unless he's a sadist. That's the way I see it.
Yes, that's a realistic evaluation. What a nice bloke God is :angel:
Really, though, I just dropped into P/R to express my bemusement that the afterlife is even seriously discussed any more. Given that there is zero empirical evidence of the existence of an afterlife and no rational basis whatsoever for believing that it is real, why are people still talking about this?
I don't doubt that the afterlife will eventually come into being, but we're not yet near having the technology to fully transplant human consciousness into a machine.
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If God created me, then he naturally created the parameters of my thought, as well as the observable world around me that further influences my thought; therefore, it wouldn't make sense for God to punish me when he is responsible for my beliefs... unless he's a sadist. That's the way I see it.
Yes, that's a realistic evaluation. What a nice bloke God is :angel:
Really, though, I just dropped into P/R to express my bemusement that the afterlife is even seriously discussed any more. Given that there is zero empirical evidence of the existence of an afterlife and no rational basis whatsoever for believing that it is real, why are people still talking about this?
I don't doubt that the afterlife will eventually come into being, but we're not yet near having the technology to fully transplant human consciousness into a machine.
Because there are people that happen to believe in things like an afterlife? I mean, I'm far from being religious myself, but I can still understand why someone would choose to believe in it.
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Also, I do find it strikingly odd that many of those who believe non-believers are going to Hell seem rather neutral to that "fact", as if they don't grasp the concept of BURNING IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. People go on and on about how you should respect peoples' beliefs, but our beliefs during life are infinitismally relative to eternity.
that is so true indeed...this quote is from the first page of this thread
Quote from: yeshua4 on July 31, 2010, 11:46:27 AM
I only meant that I want to approach the concept with deep sorrow and caution. because I believe in the biblical concept of hell, I believe that there is strong potential (only the Judge ultimately knows) that those who reject God will experience hell. this belief causes great pain for me to think about, and is one of the main reasons I try to share my conviction with as many as possible. furthermore, assuming that hell is a real concept, it is something that I do not want to approach flippantly. inasmuch as some will choose hell, it is a fearful thing indeed.
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Am I going to hell?
Not unless your idea of hell is a permanent total lack of consciousness.
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I suppose that if in the future it does become possible to transfer human consciousness to a machine, a good approximation of hell could be generated. Assuming an external agent has control over all neural inputs to the transplanted brain/consciousness/thingy, he could simulate all the stereotypical fire/demons/eternal torment/etc for the dead person's consciousness, and at least make it seem eternal.
So, yeah, you might yet go to hell :yarr
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Also, I do find it strikingly odd that many of those who believe non-believers are going to Hell seem rather neutral to that "fact", as if they don't grasp the concept of BURNING IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. People go on and on about how you should respect peoples' beliefs, but our beliefs during life are infinitismally relative to eternity.
that is so true indeed...this quote is from the first page of this thread
Quote from: yeshua4 on July 31, 2010, 11:46:27 AM
I only meant that I want to approach the concept with deep sorrow and caution. because I believe in the biblical concept of hell, I believe that there is strong potential (only the Judge ultimately knows) that those who reject God will experience hell. this belief causes great pain for me to think about, and is one of the main reasons I try to share my conviction with as many as possible. furthermore, assuming that hell is a real concept, it is something that I do not want to approach flippantly. inasmuch as some will choose hell, it is a fearful thing indeed.
I understand that the intentions are meant to be positive, but surely you can understand how infuriating it can be to be constantly told that you'll be going to hell 24/7, when you just want to live life your own way and just enjoy what you have while you have it. It gets to a point (Where I live at least), that it becomes nearly impossible to even associate with believers, because of the constant nagging that it begets. I'd prefer to be left to my own devices instead of being nagged like a small child. I mean no offense to you, but I'm sure you get my side as well, right?
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Also, I do find it strikingly odd that many of those who believe non-believers are going to Hell seem rather neutral to that "fact", as if they don't grasp the concept of BURNING IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. People go on and on about how you should respect peoples' beliefs, but our beliefs during life are infinitismally relative to eternity.
that is so true indeed...this quote is from the first page of this thread
Quote from: yeshua4 on July 31, 2010, 11:46:27 AM
I only meant that I want to approach the concept with deep sorrow and caution. because I believe in the biblical concept of hell, I believe that there is strong potential (only the Judge ultimately knows) that those who reject God will experience hell. this belief causes great pain for me to think about, and is one of the main reasons I try to share my conviction with as many as possible. furthermore, assuming that hell is a real concept, it is something that I do not want to approach flippantly. inasmuch as some will choose hell, it is a fearful thing indeed.
I understand that the intentions are meant to be positive, but surely you can understand how infuriating it can be to be constantly told that you'll be going to hell 24/7, when you just want to live life your own way and just enjoy what you have while you have it. It gets to a point (Where I live at least), that it becomes nearly impossible to even associate with believers, because of the constant nagging that it begets. I'd prefer to be left to my own devices instead of being nagged like a small child. I mean no offense to you, but I'm sure you get my side as well, right?
I do get your side, for sure.
I tend to think of an analogy of someone innocently walking towards the edge of a cliff. If I care about that person, I am going to use every possible means to keep them from falling. If "nagging" (using your example) isn't working, though, I am going to try and find another way to help them to listen. Not so I can be "right" but so they will not fall off the cliff.
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Also, I do find it strikingly odd that many of those who believe non-believers are going to Hell seem rather neutral to that "fact", as if they don't grasp the concept of BURNING IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. People go on and on about how you should respect peoples' beliefs, but our beliefs during life are infinitismally relative to eternity.
that is so true indeed...this quote is from the first page of this thread
Quote from: yeshua4 on July 31, 2010, 11:46:27 AM
I only meant that I want to approach the concept with deep sorrow and caution. because I believe in the biblical concept of hell, I believe that there is strong potential (only the Judge ultimately knows) that those who reject God will experience hell. this belief causes great pain for me to think about, and is one of the main reasons I try to share my conviction with as many as possible. furthermore, assuming that hell is a real concept, it is something that I do not want to approach flippantly. inasmuch as some will choose hell, it is a fearful thing indeed.
I understand that the intentions are meant to be positive, but surely you can understand how infuriating it can be to be constantly told that you'll be going to hell 24/7, when you just want to live life your own way and just enjoy what you have while you have it. It gets to a point (Where I live at least), that it becomes nearly impossible to even associate with believers, because of the constant nagging that it begets. I'd prefer to be left to my own devices instead of being nagged like a small child. I mean no offense to you, but I'm sure you get my side as well, right?
I do get your side, for sure.
I tend to think of an analogy of someone innocently walking towards the edge of a cliff. If I care about that person, I am going to use every possible means to keep them from falling. If "nagging" (using your example) isn't working, though, I am going to try and find another way to help them to listen. Not so I can be "right" but so they will not fall off the cliff.
Well... from my point of view, that "cliff" may not really be a cliff. Who knows, there just might be a platform sitting just a few feet underneath the edge of the cliff. You gotta dust yourself off a bit once you fall, but you're still fine and okay. I hope that makes a bit of sense...
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I understand...my focus was more on the person who believes there is a cliff. If I really believe there is a cliff (which I do), then I will not be content to just sit back and let a friend fall off. But I also will try to find ways beyond merely speaking/nagging that will help them to be cautious.
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(https://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs658.snc4/61856_126607840725343_100001283838809_165240_7943111_n.jpg)
:neverusethis:
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I see what you did there :neverusethis:
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I understand...my focus was more on the person who believes there is a cliff. If I really believe there is a cliff (which I do), then I will not be content to just sit back and let a friend fall off. But I also will try to find ways beyond merely speaking/nagging that will help them to be cautious.
By "the person who believes there is a cliff," do mean yourself, a known believer, or a person who is intent to walk off of a cliff? Either way, it's puzzling. You're denying the person his right to either A: walk off a cliff that he wants to walk off of, or B: find out for himself if there actually is a cliff there.
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I understand...my focus was more on the person who believes there is a cliff. If I really believe there is a cliff (which I do), then I will not be content to just sit back and let a friend fall off. But I also will try to find ways beyond merely speaking/nagging that will help them to be cautious.
By "the person who believes there is a cliff," do mean yourself, a known believer, or a person who is intent to walk off of a cliff? Either way, it's puzzling. You're denying the person his right to either A: walk off a cliff that he wants to walk off of, or B: find out for himself if there actually is a cliff there.
I meant myself/believer. I agree 100% that we all have the right to walk off the cliff. We also all have the right to find out if there is actually a cliff. I spent plenty of years knowing there was a cliff, and just choosing not to think about it. I was equally annoyed by people who warned me about it incessantly. There came a time when I was open to it, and when someone cared enough to warn me, it clicked. My point is that a wise person will seek to be wise in leading others away from that cliff, rather than just constantly "preaching" hell.
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My point is that a wise person will seek to be wise in leading others away from that cliff, rather than just constantly "preaching" hell.
Agreed. I would rarely recommend or follow the approach of, "you need to repent because if you don't, you're going to hell." (although that approach may occasionally be warranted) But the question posed by the thread is "Am I going to Hell?" so that is naturally what the answers in this thread have focused on.
But the sad thing is that more people than not will choose the "cliff" either willfully or by not acknowledging the cliff is there.
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My point is that a wise person will seek to be wise in leading others away from that cliff, rather than just constantly "preaching" hell.
Agreed. I would rarely recommend or follow the approach of, "you need to repent because if you don't, you're going to hell." (although that approach may occasionally be warranted) But the question posed by the thread is "Am I going to Hell?" so that is naturally what the answers in this thread have focused on.
But the sad thing is that more people than not will choose the "cliff" either willfully or by not acknowledging the cliff is there.
Sadder still, the people who won't take in a nice view because they fear an invisible cliff that only exists in hearsay.
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My point is that a wise person will seek to be wise in leading others away from that cliff, rather than just constantly "preaching" hell.
Agreed. I would rarely recommend or follow the approach of, "you need to repent because if you don't, you're going to hell." (although that approach may occasionally be warranted) But the question posed by the thread is "Am I going to Hell?" so that is naturally what the answers in this thread have focused on.
But the sad thing is that more people than not will choose the "cliff" either willfully or by not acknowledging the cliff is there.
There may or may not be a cliff there. But I don't know that. But I'm not going to let that dictate what I believe or choose to live my life. I could simply accept what people around me are telling me constantly, but deep down I know I simply want to see for myself if its really a cliff or not. And pretending otherwise, I'd just be lying to myself. To prevent myself from finding that out myself... would defeat the purpose of existence.
Besides, as far as I'm concerned, if you aren't a douchebag you shouldn't be punished in the afterlife for arbitrary reasons.
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Am I going to hell?
Not unless your idea of hell is a permanent total lack of consciousness.
Both are pretty unfathomably horrible.
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i want to show you two facts which is beyond the perception of human being but included in the buddhism theory.
1. when your mother is pregnant and you are in your mother's womb in the state of a foetus, you are suffering a great deal of pain like in hell during all those 10 months of pregnancy. though you can't remember a thing about these 10 months and how much sufferance you have undergone. but buddha told us the truth which is not empirical in the view of mankind. but unfortunately human forget all these pains after their birth and take their worldly enjoyment and human superiority as granted.
but a child's birth is always accompanied with cry, not smile, that must suggest something.
2. when persons die, their hearts stop beating, their brain is no longer active, is that the end of death? we don't know.
buddha told us it will take several hours(i can't remember specifically how much time, maybe 7 or 8 hours) for the soul to escape from the flesh body(or from the shell as the TV series supernatural's term), and this departure process of the soul from the body is a extremely painful process for the soul, so it's advisable not to touch the dead person's body immediately after their death, only after the soul is completely out of its shell, then we can dispose of the dead dead body.
religion is correct.
look at different levels of existence:
the animals are intelligently incapable of understanding the idea of karma or afterlife.
the human have a notion about these ideas but are unable to prove it.
the people in heaven is capable of watching through their prelife, their current life and their next reincarnation.
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Wait, did you just claim that it's a FACT that all humans spend the 9 months in the womb in constant pain that can only be compared to hell? And you base this ENTIRELY off of the fact that a baby cries when it's born?
I'm sorry, I can't take that post seriously and I am big fan of buddhism, but i've never heard or read of Buddha saying any of those things. How did Buddha measure the amount of time it takes the soul to leave the body? How did he gauge the amount of pain a dead person goes through?
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Wait, did you just claim that it's a FACT that all humans spend the 9 months in the womb in constant pain that can only be compared to hell? And you base this ENTIRELY off of the fact that a baby cries when it's born?
I'm sorry, I can't take that post seriously and I am big fan of buddhism, but i've never heard or read of Buddha saying any of those things. How did Buddha measure the amount of time it takes the soul to leave the body? How did he gauge the amount of pain a dead person goes through?
the pregnancy lasts 10 months. i am not saying baby's crying upon the birth is the evidence of the sufferring in the womb, i only consider it a suggestion. why the baby's first reaction when touching the earth is crying rather than smiling? only when people suffer they cry, isn't it?
many of the buddhism theory can not be proved by experiment, so scientists have nothing to do with it, the pains of the foetus can not be measured, for we are not able to feel it, don't you think it's ridiculous that you realize a certain period of your existence, but you can't remember how you feel in those 10 months? but that's true, all the humans on earth don't know how it was like before birth, it's like a blank period, but don't you think it's specifically designed. imagine if the human being can remember the pain in mother's womb, then everyone will treasure more their brief lifetime, not to squander the life, then everyone can ascend to heaven or become a buddha and escape from all pains. but the fact is we can not remember, because human has limitations, so only those with firm beliefs and really decent people can still abide by the rule set by religion.
the scientists are incompetitive in face of many mysteries, buddhism considers the center of the universe is a mountain, no reaserch facility can show that. and we can also give up any hope of finding aliens, because there are only 4 places in the universe where there's human, and these four places can not be connected except through meditation, our earth is one of the four places.
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We don't remember it because our brains aren't formed enough to create such memories, that applies to our first year or two of life as well.
Also, don't you think it's a bit MORE likely that we cry when we're born because the process of being born is a pretty traumatic event?
Also what mountain are you talking about? And what four places in the universe do humans exist? Buddhism has nothing to do with any of that, I don't recall buddha ever talking about how aliens don't exist.
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Besides, as far as I'm concerned, if you aren't a douchebag you shouldn't be punished in the afterlife for arbitrary reasons.
I agree with most of what you've posted in this thread, but to be fair, your personal opinion on justice or how things "should" be makes no difference. If an all-powerful God does exist, maybe he's an UNjust god, or maybe his concept of justice says that everybody gets eternal punishment by default. Or maybe he thinks you ARE a douchebag in spite of your own view of yourself. :biggrin:
-J
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We don't remember it because our brains aren't formed enough to create such memories, that applies to our first year or two of life as well.
Also, don't you think it's a bit MORE likely that we cry when we're born because the process of being born is a pretty traumatic event?
Also what mountain are you talking about? And what four places in the universe do humans exist? Buddhism has nothing to do with any of that, I don't recall buddha ever talking about how aliens don't exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology#Worlds_of_Sumeru
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambudvipa#In_Buddhism
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We don't remember it because our brains aren't formed enough to create such memories, that applies to our first year or two of life as well.
Also, don't you think it's a bit MORE likely that we cry when we're born because the process of being born is a pretty traumatic event?
Also what mountain are you talking about? And what four places in the universe do humans exist? Buddhism has nothing to do with any of that, I don't recall buddha ever talking about how aliens don't exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology#Worlds_of_Sumeru
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambudvipa#In_Buddhism
Buddhist cosmological descriptions cannot be taken as a literal description of the shape of the universe as humans perceive it in their normal state. It is inconsistent with our normal perception, and cannot be made consistent with the astronomical data that were already known in ancient India. So your statement about aliens is not correct.
Buddhist literature describes in remarkable (if technically inaccurate) detail the stages of embryonic development of the fetus month by month, some with illustrations. In addition to the physical development, a fetus is said to have feelings of heat, cold, pain, and discomfort; karmic formations, including the "imprints" of actions created in past lives and a momentary stream of consciousness that carries the imprints of actions that being has created in past lives. I have never heard the statement that humans spend 9 months in constant pain in the womb.
Although various schools of Buddhism have differing ideas about what happens after death, most Buddhists believe that upon death the soul leaves the earthly body immediately but it may hover around the body for some time. I've never heard the statement that it takes 8 or 9 hours for the soul to leave the body.
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the pregnancy lasts 10 months.
No it doesn't, and the fact that you have said that it does 3 separate times makes the rest of the stuff you posted easier to understand.
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We don't remember it because our brains aren't formed enough to create such memories, that applies to our first year or two of life as well.
Also, don't you think it's a bit MORE likely that we cry when we're born because the process of being born is a pretty traumatic event?
Also what mountain are you talking about? And what four places in the universe do humans exist? Buddhism has nothing to do with any of that, I don't recall buddha ever talking about how aliens don't exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology#Worlds_of_Sumeru
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambudvipa#In_Buddhism
Buddhist cosmological descriptions cannot be taken as a literal description of the shape of the universe as humans perceive it in their normal state. It is inconsistent with our normal perception, and cannot be made consistent with the astronomical data that were already known in ancient India. So your statement about aliens is not correct.
Buddhist literature describes in remarkable (if technically inaccurate) detail the stages of embryonic development of the fetus month by month, some with illustrations. In addition to the physical development, a fetus is said to have feelings of heat, cold, pain, and discomfort; karmic formations, including the "imprints" of actions created in past lives and a momentary stream of consciousness that carries the imprints of actions that being has created in past lives. I have never heard the statement that humans spend 9 months in constant pain in the womb.
Although various schools of Buddhism have differing ideas about what happens after death, most Buddhists believe that upon death the soul leaves the earthly body immediately but it may hover around the body for some time. I've never heard the statement that it takes 8 or 9 hours for the soul to leave the body.
all the things i have said is the quotation of some buddhism lectures in chinese, these lectures are spoken in chinese, i just summarize it and translate it into english. all of i said is true, is what i have heard and seen on some prestigious videos of the master Chin Kung, however i can't find the original video.
below is the website of the master chin kung.
https://www.amtb.tw/index.asp
南无阿弥陀佛
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Besides, as far as I'm concerned, if you aren't a douchebag you shouldn't be punished in the afterlife for arbitrary reasons.
I agree with most of what you've posted in this thread, but to be fair, your personal opinion on justice or how things "should" be makes no difference. If an all-powerful God does exist, maybe he's an UNjust god, or maybe his concept of justice says that everybody gets eternal punishment by default. Or maybe he thinks you ARE a douchebag in spite of your own view of yourself. :biggrin:
-J
If that's the case, then there would be no point serving such an unjust god, as he would be no different than any other tyrant.
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We don't remember it because our brains aren't formed enough to create such memories, that applies to our first year or two of life as well.
Also, don't you think it's a bit MORE likely that we cry when we're born because the process of being born is a pretty traumatic event?
Also what mountain are you talking about? And what four places in the universe do humans exist? Buddhism has nothing to do with any of that, I don't recall buddha ever talking about how aliens don't exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology#Worlds_of_Sumeru
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambudvipa#In_Buddhism
Buddhist cosmological descriptions cannot be taken as a literal description of the shape of the universe as humans perceive it in their normal state. It is inconsistent with our normal perception, and cannot be made consistent with the astronomical data that were already known in ancient India. So your statement about aliens is not correct.
Buddhist literature describes in remarkable (if technically inaccurate) detail the stages of embryonic development of the fetus month by month, some with illustrations. In addition to the physical development, a fetus is said to have feelings of heat, cold, pain, and discomfort; karmic formations, including the "imprints" of actions created in past lives and a momentary stream of consciousness that carries the imprints of actions that being has created in past lives. I have never heard the statement that humans spend 9 months in constant pain in the womb.
Although various schools of Buddhism have differing ideas about what happens after death, most Buddhists believe that upon death the soul leaves the earthly body immediately but it may hover around the body for some time. I've never heard the statement that it takes 8 or 9 hours for the soul to leave the body.
all the things i have said is the quotation of some buddhism lectures in chinese, these lectures are spoken in chinese, i just summarize it and translate it into english. all of i said is true, is what i have heard and seen on some prestigious videos of the master Chin Kung, however i can't find the original video.
below is the website of the master chin kung.
https://www.amtb.tw/index.asp
南无阿弥陀佛
You know the great thing about buddhism? That aside from Buddha himself, no one elses opinions matter at all unless you find personal truth in them, hell Buddha himself even said that his own words don't matter unless you find personal truth in them.
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Besides, as far as I'm concerned, if you aren't a douchebag you shouldn't be punished in the afterlife for arbitrary reasons.
I agree with most of what you've posted in this thread, but to be fair, your personal opinion on justice or how things "should" be makes no difference. If an all-powerful God does exist, maybe he's an UNjust god, or maybe his concept of justice says that everybody gets eternal punishment by default. Or maybe he thinks you ARE a douchebag in spite of your own view of yourself. :biggrin:
-J
If that's the case, then there would be no point serving such an unjust god, as he would be no different than any other tyrant.
Except that he could condemn you to burn for all eternity.
-J
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Besides, as far as I'm concerned, if you aren't a douchebag you shouldn't be punished in the afterlife for arbitrary reasons.
I agree with most of what you've posted in this thread, but to be fair, your personal opinion on justice or how things "should" be makes no difference. If an all-powerful God does exist, maybe he's an UNjust god, or maybe his concept of justice says that everybody gets eternal punishment by default. Or maybe he thinks you ARE a douchebag in spite of your own view of yourself. :biggrin:
-J
If that's the case, then there would be no point serving such an unjust god, as he would be no different than any other tyrant.
Except that he could condemn you to burn for all eternity.
-J
That's true, but like any tyrant he can throw around punishment as a means to obey him "or else". Its just hell is god's punishment.
And I'd much rather suffer punishment than serve a benevolent tyrant.
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all the things i have said is the quotation of some buddhism lectures in chinese, these lectures are spoken in chinese, i just summarize it and translate it into english. all of i said is true, is what i have heard and seen on some prestigious videos of the master Chin Kung, however i can't find the original video.
below is the website of the master chin kung.
https://www.amtb.tw/index.asp
南无阿弥陀佛
Awesome, THIS thread again.
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We don't remember it because our brains aren't formed enough to create such memories, that applies to our first year or two of life as well.
Also, don't you think it's a bit MORE likely that we cry when we're born because the process of being born is a pretty traumatic event?
Also what mountain are you talking about? And what four places in the universe do humans exist? Buddhism has nothing to do with any of that, I don't recall buddha ever talking about how aliens don't exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology#Worlds_of_Sumeru
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambudvipa#In_Buddhism
Buddhist cosmological descriptions cannot be taken as a literal description of the shape of the universe as humans perceive it in their normal state. It is inconsistent with our normal perception, and cannot be made consistent with the astronomical data that were already known in ancient India. So your statement about aliens is not correct.
Buddhist literature describes in remarkable (if technically inaccurate) detail the stages of embryonic development of the fetus month by month, some with illustrations. In addition to the physical development, a fetus is said to have feelings of heat, cold, pain, and discomfort; karmic formations, including the "imprints" of actions created in past lives and a momentary stream of consciousness that carries the imprints of actions that being has created in past lives. I have never heard the statement that humans spend 9 months in constant pain in the womb.
Although various schools of Buddhism have differing ideas about what happens after death, most Buddhists believe that upon death the soul leaves the earthly body immediately but it may hover around the body for some time. I've never heard the statement that it takes 8 or 9 hours for the soul to leave the body.
all the things i have said is the quotation of some buddhism lectures in chinese, these lectures are spoken in chinese, i just summarize it and translate it into english. all of i said is true, is what i have heard and seen on some prestigious videos of the master Chin Kung, however i can't find the original video.
below is the website of the master chin kung.
https://www.amtb.tw/index.asp
南无阿弥陀佛
You know the great thing about buddhism? That aside from Buddha himself, no one elses opinions matter at all unless you find personal truth in them, hell Buddha himself even said that his own words don't matter unless you find personal truth in them.
yeah, everyone is equal, every creature is equal, no matter visible or invisible, tangible or intangible. if we can reach the level of the buddha, we will find the truth, we will pass through the barrier of time and space, all of the universe is a unity, the reason why we can cross these barriers is because we have "illusions, differentiation and persistence".
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Speaking of which, pasta is reallllllly good.
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While we're on the subject raviolis and lasagna are great too.
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While we're on the subject raviolis and lasagna are great too.
It's all equal.
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Most atheists I know completely misunderstand Hell and what it means. Hell is simply put, a place away from God, away from the light and away from life itself. Hell is not just some place filled with awful and evil people guarded by a goat with a pitchfork wearing red spandex. It is far more involved than that. Simply put, your soul can only go in one of two directions, towards God or away from God. Atheists have this notion (well even Evangelists do as well) that if they don't believe in God they go to Hell and that's that even i they lived a moral life. Anyone can live a moral life, but a moral life with God is a limited life that doesn't bring out the potential. Take a moth. If a moth doesn't have a light to fly towards it simply just flutters about in no direction, with no purpose. Once we see the true light of God that light forever guides us. We move towards that light and we are forever embraced by it and we never lose hope that we will ever become lost or blind again. This blindness is humanity in general. We cannot move outside of our human boundary without God. This is why religion speaks of freedom. Freedom is the idea we are no longer contrained to our human selves and that God will push us past that boundary. We are therefore not limited anymore. So Hell becomes this place we choose to be. We have a choice, embrace the light or push it away and go your own path. That path without God is Hell because there is no life, no hope, no chance, no freedom. Just darkness. That's hell. Now to say you are going to Hell when you die is presumptious at best. Not a single person can tell you that as that presumes judgement over your soul. We can presume judgement over your body, but never your soul. Therefore are you going to hell? The correct answer from everyone should be "I don't know". However even if in death you refuse the light of God, that's hell. That's your choice. Even in death. There are many who believe that once you die you are therefore "locked" into a direction, you no longer have freewill. I also believe this as well as I believe freewill to be a human trait and even the Angel do not have freewill. therefore the direction your soul points to at the moment of death is where you will go and in the end, it's your decision. Are you going to Hell? Completely up to you.
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Most atheists I know completely misunderstand Hell and what it means. Hell is simply put, a place away from God, away from the light and away from life itself. Hell is not just some place filled with awful and evil people guarded by a goat with a pitchfork wearing red spandex. It is far more involved than that. Simply put, your soul can only go in one of two directions, towards God or away from God. Atheists have this notion (well even Evangelists do as well) that if they don't believe in God they go to Hell and that's that even i they lived a moral life. Anyone can live a moral life, but a moral life with God is a limited life that doesn't bring out the potential. Take a moth. If a moth doesn't have a light to fly towards it simply just flutters about in no direction, with no purpose. Once we see the true light of God that light forever guides us. We move towards that light and we are forever embraced by it and we never lose hope that we will ever become lost or blind again. This blindness is humanity in general. We cannot move outside of our human boundary without God. This is why religion speaks of freedom. Freedom is the idea we are no longer contrained to our human selves and that God will push us past that boundary. We are therefore not limited anymore. So Hell becomes this place we choose to be. We have a choice, embrace the light or push it away and go your own path. That path without God is Hell because there is no life, no hope, no chance, no freedom. Just darkness. That's hell. Now to say you are going to Hell when you die is presumptious at best. Not a single person can tell you that as that presumes judgement over your soul. We can presume judgement over your body, but never your soul. Therefore are you going to hell? The correct answer from everyone should be "I don't know". However even if in death you refuse the light of God, that's hell. That's your choice. Even in death. There are many who believe that once you die you are therefore "locked" into a direction, you no longer have freewill. I also believe this as well as I believe freewill to be a human trait and even the Angel do not have freewill. therefore the direction your soul points to at the moment of death is where you will go and in the end, it's your decision. Are you going to Hell? Completely up to you.
I personally don't believe that anything is perfect, so the notion of the Christian God is silly to me. I don't reject the potential or possibility of other god(s) existing, but the Christian God strikes me very badly for a number of reasons.
Now, what exactly is wrong with a life away from your god? What is wrong with being a human? I think humanity is a beautiful thing, honestly. I'm damn proud to be a human in this fleshly existence, and I'm not ashamed of it in the slightest. Sure, there are a bunch of idiots in this world but that's not going to stop me from being proud of my human existence. I don't need a deity to provide me with a purpose, I feel that I'm more than capable of doing that all on my own. Why is it that you are suddenly blind if you do not bend yourselves to a will that refuses to reveal itself? I'm simply taking a different path of my own choosing. If I have to suffer consequences for them, I'll gladly accept them and pay any price (Even if that price happens to be hell).
Freedom is not what you say it is (At least how I personally feel). Freedom can be achieved even as a human, all it takes is to be happy. All it takes is for humans to love and respect each other. Why do we need your god for that? The idea that humans themselves are blind without god implies (to me) that we were only created for the sole purpose of being dependent to said god, which scares me. It scares me that an omnipotent entity needs its creations to be dependent and constantly rely on him rather than being self-sufficient people. Which again, strikes me very badly.
Of course, I mean no hostility out of that, its just subjects like this get me started fairly easily.
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I completely agree with the Seventh Male Spawn. Why is your god's "light" so good and why would anyone want it? How is it freewill if it is forced upon us? Not trying to grill you Vivace, just curious.
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It's been said before, but I'll reaffirm it.
Basically, everybody deserves Hell. We all have sins on our permanent record, and God, who is perfectly just, cannot let these sins go unaccounted for. He can't. It's not like he's mean or nasty or uncompromising...he is legally obligated by his holy character to do so.
So, we all deserve Hell equally. All the world is guilty before God...
Now, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, decided to take those sins that would have been on placed on our account. He died in our stead... He resurrected three days later as the evidence that the price was paid. When he died, we died with him, spiritually...when he rose, we rose with him.
This is called "grace" because it is an undeserved gift. The only prerequisite in partaking of this grace is belief...
This is the Christian perspective. Sometimes, people will add amendments to the salvation process such as baptism and enduring to the end...but these topics are highly debated, and I can't speak on the matter yet. If you really are interested in learning what Christians believe qualifies a person for Hell, and in what releases a person from Hell, the best thing to do is to just read the Bible...Specifically, Romans 1-5 for starters...If you really want to get a firm grasp on what the Bible says, I would read Romans - Galatians. Most Christians misrepresent the truth by saying things like "If you accept Jesus into your heart, you'll be saved" or heavily emotional messages like that....The best place to learn about Christian beliefs is not from Christians, but from the Bible itself.
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It's been said before, but I'll reaffirm it.
Basically, everybody deserves Hell. We all have sins on our permanent record, and God, who is perfectly just, cannot let these sins go unaccounted for. He can't. It's not like he's mean or nasty or uncompromising...he is legally obligated by his holy character to do so.
So, we all deserve Hell equally. All the world is guilty before God...
Now, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, decided to take those sins that would have been on placed on our account. He died in our stead... He resurrected three days later as the evidence that the price was paid. When he died, we died with him, spiritually...when he rose, we rose with him.
This is called "grace" because it is an undeserved gift. The only prerequisite in partaking of this grace is belief...
This is the Christian perspective. Sometimes, people will add amendments to the salvation process such as baptism and enduring to the end...but these topics are highly debated, and I can't speak on the matter yet. If you really are interested in learning what Christians believe qualifies a person for Hell, and in what releases a person from Hell, the best thing to do is to just read the Bible...Specifically, Romans 1-5 for starters...If you really want to get a firm grasp on what the Bible says, I would read Romans - Galatians. Most Christians misrepresent the truth by saying things like "If you accept Jesus into your heart, you'll be saved" or heavily emotional messages like that....The best place to learn about Christian beliefs is not from Christians, but from the Bible itself.
I'll bite.
1. If god is able to decide what is right and wrong at his own whim, then who or what is obligating god to punish others? Does your god have someone he has to answer to? If that's the case, then god is definitely not omnipotent.
2. Why? Guilty of what? For our own nature? I thought god was the one that crafted humanity? Wouldn't that suggest that god created humankind so that they would sin?
3. Doesn't the fact that Jesus revived cheapen the symbolism behind the sacrifice? It really isn't a "sacrifice" if he can just go "lol just kidding gaiz, I'm not dead!" He could simply do that at any time and have no repercussions.
4. Why is it undeserved? I can't help but feel the underlying message is "Humans are nothing more than total shit, scum, and garbage", something I take great offense to.
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It's been said before, but I'll reaffirm it.
Basically, everybody deserves Hell. We all have sins on our permanent record, and God, who is perfectly just, cannot let these sins go unaccounted for. He can't. It's not like he's mean or nasty or uncompromising...he is legally obligated by his holy character to do so.
So, we all deserve Hell equally. All the world is guilty before God...
Do you sincerely believe this? Or are you stating what the bible says?
Now, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, decided to take those sins that would have been on placed on our account. He died in our stead... He resurrected three days later as the evidence that the price was paid. When he died, we died with him, spiritually...when he rose, we rose with him.
This is called "grace" because it is an undeserved gift. The only prerequisite in partaking of this grace is belief...
Why was Jesus needed at all? Good people did exist without him
This is the Christian perspective. Sometimes, people will add amendments to the salvation process such as baptism and enduring to the end...but these topics are highly debated, and I can't speak on the matter yet. If you really are interested in learning what Christians believe qualifies a person for Hell, and in what releases a person from Hell, the best thing to do is to just read the Bible...Specifically, Romans 1-5 for starters...If you really want to get a firm grasp on what the Bible says, I would read Romans - Galatians. Most Christians misrepresent the truth by saying things like "If you accept Jesus into your heart, you'll be saved" or heavily emotional messages like that....The best place to learn about Christian beliefs is not from Christians, but from the Bible itself.
I'm going to avoid going down that road again, at least for a while. I made this thread to get perspectives not to form my own opinions per say.
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Do you sincerely believe this? Or are you stating what the bible says?
Well, both. But you shouldn't trust me to be a good representative of what the Bible says, so I suggest you take my words (and anyone else's, for that matter) with a grain of salt, especially since there's so many different views.
Why was Jesus needed at all? Good people did exist without him
Let's pretend for a moment that we can quantify someone's goodness.
Suppose there's a guy that's 50% good. Well, that's pretty bad, isn't it? That's a failing grade. That guy probably deserves Hell, right?
Now suppose there's a guy that's 75% good. That's meh. That's a C. I wouldn't say that guy really deserves an eternity of happiness, would you? He probably could have put more effort into his life.
Now take a guy that's 95% good. That's really good, ain't it? That's an A. But let me ask you, does a human being that is 95% good deserve a place that's 100% perfect? No. He is close to the mark, but he still missed it.
Basically, I'm saying that God doesn't grade on a curve. James 1:10 says that if a man offends in one point, he is guilty of all....
Unfortunately for every member of humanity save one, no one has been 100% righteous, never offending at all. The only person that was truly righteous was Jesus.
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Do you sincerely believe this? Or are you stating what the bible says?
Well, both. But you shouldn't trust me to be a good representative of what the Bible says, so I suggest you take my words (and anyone else's, for that matter) with a grain of salt, especially since there's so many different views.
Why was Jesus needed at all? Good people did exist without him
Let's pretend for a moment that we can quantify someone's goodness.
Suppose there's a guy that's 50% good. Well, that's pretty bad, isn't it? That's a failing grade. That guy probably deserves Hell, right?
Now suppose there's a guy that's 75% good. That's meh. That's a C. I wouldn't say that guy really deserves an eternity of happiness, would you? He probably could have put more effort into his life.
Now take a guy that's 95% good. That's really good, ain't it? That's an A. But let me ask you, does a human being that is 95% good deserve a place that's 100% perfect? No. He is close to the mark, but he still missed it.
Basically, I'm saying that God doesn't grade on a curve. James 1:10 says that if a man offends in one point, he is guilty of all....
Unfortunately for every member of humanity save one, no one has been 100% righteous, never offending at all. The only person that was truly righteous was Jesus.
I personally believe that absolutely nothing that has ever existed has lived without any flaws. I mean, I can see why someone would get into it, but I dunno, to me perfection is something completely unattainable. So why bother? Just be the best person you can possibly be, and just be a good person.
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Now, what exactly is wrong with a life away from your god? What is wrong with being a human? I think humanity is a beautiful thing, honestly. I'm damn proud to be a human in this fleshly existence, and I'm not ashamed of it in the slightest. Sure, there are a bunch of idiots in this world but that's not going to stop me from being proud of my human existence.
I agree with some of your post, but what exactly is it that makes you so "proud" to be a human? Not that there's anything to be ashamed of either, but what is there to be proud of? We just exist.
1. If god is able to decide what is right and wrong at his own whim, then who or what is obligating god to punish others? Does your god have someone he has to answer to? If that's the case, then god is definitely not omnipotent.
His nature. The idea is that if there's an objective "good", and God is perfectly "good" and "just", then he must adhere to those attributes.
I'm not sure I've ever heard a Christian address any of those other questions in your post (which I did not quote), and I've had them myself in the past. Curious if you'll get some responses.
Why is your god's "light" so good and why would anyone want it? How is it freewill if it is forced upon us? Not trying to grill you Vivace, just curious.
I think the usual retort is that we don't *know* what is good and best for us and our natures, and that heaven is in actuality more fulfilling and perfect than we could have ever fathomed. That still doesn't address the illusion of free will issue though.
Why was Jesus needed at all? Good people did exist without him
Let's pretend for a moment that we can quantify someone's goodness.
Suppose there's a guy that's 50% good. Well, that's pretty bad, isn't it? That's a failing grade. That guy probably deserves Hell, right?
Now suppose there's a guy that's 75% good. That's meh. That's a C. I wouldn't say that guy really deserves an eternity of happiness, would you? He probably could have put more effort into his life.
Now take a guy that's 95% good. That's really good, ain't it? That's an A. But let me ask you, does a human being that is 95% good deserve a place that's 100% perfect? No. He is close to the mark, but he still missed it.
Basically, I'm saying that God doesn't grade on a curve. James 1:10 says that if a man offends in one point, he is guilty of all....
Unfortunately for every member of humanity save one, no one has been 100% righteous, never offending at all. The only person that was truly righteous was Jesus.
But that doesn't address SS's earlier question: WHY would an omniscient God create us knowing full well that our default ultimate destination would be hell? Why would he create us as unworthy, undeserving, horribly flawed beings? Even if he didn't create us imperfect (a response I predict), he would have known about "the fall of man" and that it would be inevitable, so he may as well have been responsible for it.
-J
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Now, what exactly is wrong with a life away from your god? What is wrong with being a human? I think humanity is a beautiful thing, honestly. I'm damn proud to be a human in this fleshly existence, and I'm not ashamed of it in the slightest. Sure, there are a bunch of idiots in this world but that's not going to stop me from being proud of my human existence.
I agree with some of your post, but what exactly is it that makes you so "proud" to be a human? Not that there's anything to be ashamed of either, but what is there to be proud of? We just exist.
1. If god is able to decide what is right and wrong at his own whim, then who or what is obligating god to punish others? Does your god have someone he has to answer to? If that's the case, then god is definitely not omnipotent.
His nature. The idea is that if there's an objective "good", and God is perfectly "good" and "just", then he must adhere to those attributes.
I'm not sure I've ever heard a Christian address any of those other questions in your post (which I did not quote), and I've had them myself in the past. Curious if you'll get some responses.
-J
Life. The fact that I live and breathe is reason enough to be proud of it. The fact I can go across the street, shake hands with a stranger and exchange thoughts, ideas and feelings is reason enough to be proud of humanity. The fact that two people who are entirely different can fall in love and form a child together is also another good reason to be proud of one's humanity. I prefer not to let the actions of retards stain what good humanity is capable of.
As for your other response, why would there be any other "objective" good than god's will? What if god suddenly changes his mind on what is and what isn't sinful? After all, if he is all-powerful, then god ultimately decides what is good and just, does he not? If god said so, wouldn't it make it just if god said "Okay, I have no problem with sodomy anymore," then it wouldn't be evil or sinful in the slightest, correct?
From what you're saying, it seems if people are using their image of "objective" good and projecting that unto god itself.
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Life. The fact that I live and breathe is reason enough to be proud of it. The fact I can go across the street, shake hands with a stranger and exchange thoughts, ideas and feelings is reason enough to be proud of humanity. The fact that two people who are entirely different can fall in love and form a child together is also another good reason to be proud of one's humanity. I prefer not to let the actions of retards stain what good humanity is capable of.
But you can't ignore them either: they're part of humanity. Humans are capable of great good and great evil. That isn't what I meant by being "proud". When you say that you are proud of something, that implies (to me) that you feel you have something to do with it, when in reality it was just probability on a cosmic scale. It's like being proud of winning the lottery or being a certain race, etc. Just kind of meaningless, IMO.
Note that I'm differentiating between being "proud" and simply appreciating your circumstances. Of course I like being human; granted, it's all I know, but I am glad I exist and I'm grateful for it. The difference lies in the attitude toward it: unwarranted pride or cautious humility. Now, whether I'm grateful to a God, random chance, or the flying spaghetti monster is another issue altogether. Maybe that's sort of what you meant, I don't know.
As for your other response, why would there be any other "objective" good than god's will? What if god suddenly changes his mind on what is and what isn't sinful? After all, if he is all-powerful, then god ultimately decides what is good and just, does he not? If god said so, wouldn't it make it just if god said "Okay, I have no problem with sodomy anymore," then it wouldn't be evil or sinful in the slightest, correct?
??? According to the Christian notion of God, he is perfectly omniscient, remember? Thus it follows that he is immutable, and cannot "change his mind". The question is moot.
Granted that brings up a bunch of other questions, like "doesn't that mean he isn't truly all-powerful", or "how do you explain all the times he apparently changes his mind in the bible".
From what you're saying, it seems if people are using their image of "objective" good and projecting that unto god itself.
Well, they do. :lol But that has no bearing on whether or not there is an objective "good", or what it is, or whether we can know it.
-J
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There are a LOT of excellent questions here and it would be impossible to touch upon them all so let me try and summarize the basic points
God is above all creation
God is the prime mover and creator of all things
God therefore has perfect knowledge. Knowledge of things past, present and future.
God is immutable. He does not change. He is the same now as he was before Creation and will be the same at the end of Creation. God does not change His mind, does not change His will or anything. God simply is.
If God has perfect knowledge then in God there is all truth. Lies are irrelevant as they are empty and hold no knowledge therefore for God to also hold lies is impossible.
If in God there is all truth and truth is good and moral, then in God lies all good and all morality.
That last statement is the key to why I love God with all my heart, soul and will and have complete and utter hope in God and in nothing else. Now that sounds rather cold, but think about it. If you follow the will of God then you follow the moral good and truth. No one can contest to your morality. This is why no one could find fault in Christ. He followed the will of God 100%. This is why the light of God is greater than any light because the light of God holds all the truth, it holds all good and no evil. Therefore in following the will of God you can never to evil or immoral. To believe that you can do better or just as good as God puts you on the same level or greater than God. this is impossible. If this were true then you should be command over life and death itself. But as it turns out, you probably don't have this command and can do nothing to prevent yourself from dying whenever that may be. Also to think that I know how to live my life better without God means that you have more knowledge of your life over God. you are therefore stating your knowledge is better than God's to which we therefore must say then you know more than any human alive and even know all past knowledge and ALL future knowledge. Unless I see you win the powerball tomorrow and everyday for the rest of your life, I think we can conclude you do not have this kind of knowledge. ;)
Now if we agree with this I think we can now concluded that if in God there is all truth, all life, all creation, all perfection, then what can anyone hope to achieve without God? To live without this hope is where Hell comes into play. Hell is simply the absense of life. The absence of truth. To trust in human truth can be good but we are plagued with an immoral nature that can tarish this truth. This is not so with God as pointed out above. Sure you can live a very moral life but that where lies the truth? how are you certain you are truly living a moral life? You are basing your ideas on morality on your own humanity to which we all have the same problem. We screw up sometimes. In us lies imperfect truth. that is not to say we are evil creatures. Hardly that, but we do not have perfect truth. So why should we assume then our morality is good enough when even we don't know that for certain? Again, this is where God plays a pivotal role.
Hell comes into play because you have chosen to live a life without perfect truth. That's fine. I'm not going to say you are an evil person, but I don't see how anyone in that position can tell me their choices will be better than what God would guide them to do. Again you are placing yourself above God, above creation. You are better than the prime mover. Can I have your autograph? :P :coolio
I hope I was clear on this. This is a lot to swallow and I don't expect anyone to just go, "I believe". In fact I would question that. I went from Atheist to a full devotion not because someone told me something and a lightbulb went off, it was a very deep and personal experience I simply cannot explain and not only profoundly changed me but opened my life into something that is so grand and beautiful the only thing I want to do is try and share that picture. :) Your life is yours. you can choose to let yourself guide your actions or allow God to guide them. Do whatever is comfortable. This is another reason why I find evalgelicals a bit disturbing. They try to force salvation down your throat. I cannot stress how dangerous this is. In my opinion this is how extremists and terrorists are born.
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Life. The fact that I live and breathe is reason enough to be proud of it. The fact I can go across the street, shake hands with a stranger and exchange thoughts, ideas and feelings is reason enough to be proud of humanity. The fact that two people who are entirely different can fall in love and form a child together is also another good reason to be proud of one's humanity. I prefer not to let the actions of retards stain what good humanity is capable of.
But you can't ignore them either: they're part of humanity. Humans are capable of great good and great evil. That isn't what I meant by being "proud". When you say that you are proud of something, that implies (to me) that you feel you have something to do with it, when in reality it was just probability on a cosmic scale. It's like being proud of winning the lottery or being a certain race, etc. Just kind of meaningless, IMO.
Note that I'm differentiating between being "proud" and simply appreciating your circumstances. Of course I like being human; granted, it's all I know, but I am glad I exist and I'm grateful for it. The difference lies in the attitude toward it: unwarranted pride or cautious humility. Now, whether I'm grateful to a God, random chance, or the flying spaghetti monster is another issue altogether. Maybe that's sort of what you meant, I don't know.
As for your other response, why would there be any other "objective" good than god's will? What if god suddenly changes his mind on what is and what isn't sinful? After all, if he is all-powerful, then god ultimately decides what is good and just, does he not? If god said so, wouldn't it make it just if god said "Okay, I have no problem with sodomy anymore," then it wouldn't be evil or sinful in the slightest, correct?
??? According to the Christian notion of God, he is perfectly omniscient, remember? Thus it follows that he is immutable, and cannot "change his mind". The question is moot.
Granted that brings up a bunch of other questions, like "doesn't that mean he isn't truly all-powerful", or "how do you explain all the times he apparently changes his mind in the bible".
From what you're saying, it seems if people are using their image of "objective" good and projecting that unto god itself.
Well, they do. :lol But that has no bearing on whether or not there is an objective "good", or what it is, or whether we can know it.
-J
1. I mean that, I am greatly appreciative of all good that humans can achieve. I'm normally a cynic in most circumstances, but for some reason I always try to see the good in this :lol I guess that makes me a hypocrite but if I'm going to feel strongly and positively about something I feel it might as well be humanity. I've always believed that humans respond best when they have others that love and respect them. As for the idiots, well I say "Fuck the haters" :p
2. If god is unable to change his mind then he is bound by something, is he not? If god is bound by whatever it is, his will is controlled and dictated by it and thus he is not all-powerful then.
3. Of course, but if you are going to proclaim a deity as the representative of all that is good and holy, its kind of silly to change things around for god to fit what you think is right, right?
There are a LOT of excellent questions here and it would be impossible to touch upon them all so let me try and summarize the basic points
God is above all creation
God is the prime mover and creator of all things
God therefore has perfect knowledge. Knowledge of things past, present and future.
God is immutable. He does not change. He is the same now as he was before Creation and will be the same at the end of Creation. God does not change His mind, does not change His will or anything. God simply is.
If God has perfect knowledge then in God there is all truth. Lies are irrelevant as they are empty and hold no knowledge therefore for God to also hold lies is impossible.
If in God there is all truth and truth is good and moral, then in God lies all good and all morality.
That last statement is the key to why I love God with all my heart, soul and will and have complete and utter hope in God and in nothing else. Now that sounds rather cold, but think about it. If you follow the will of God then you follow the moral good and truth. No one can contest to your morality. This is why no one could find fault in Christ. He followed the will of God 100%. This is why the light of God is greater than any light because the light of God holds all the truth, it holds all good and no evil. Therefore in following the will of God you can never to evil or immoral. To believe that you can do better or just as good as God puts you on the same level or greater than God. this is impossible. If this were true then you should be command over life and death itself. But as it turns out, you probably don't have this command and can do nothing to prevent yourself from dying whenever that may be. Also to think that I know how to live my life better without God means that you have more knowledge of your life over God. you are therefore stating your knowledge is better than God's to which we therefore must say then you know more than any human alive and even know all past knowledge and ALL future knowledge. Unless I see you win the powerball tomorrow and everyday for the rest of your life, I think we can conclude you do not have this kind of knowledge. ;)
Now if we agree with this I think we can now concluded that if in God there is all truth, all life, all creation, all perfection, then what can anyone hope to achieve without God? To live without this hope is where Hell comes into play. Hell is simply the absense of life. The absence of truth. To trust in human truth can be good but we are plagued with an immoral nature that can tarish this truth. This is not so with God as pointed out above. Sure you can live a very moral life but that where lies the truth? how are you certain you are truly living a moral life? You are basing your ideas on morality on your own humanity to which we all have the same problem. We screw up sometimes. In us lies imperfect truth. that is not to say we are evil creatures. Hardly that, but we do not have perfect truth. So why should we assume then our morality is good enough when even we don't know that for certain? Again, this is where God plays a pivotal role.
Hell comes into play because you have chosen to live a life without perfect truth. That's fine. I'm not going to say you are an evil person, but I don't see how anyone in that position can tell me their choices will be better than what God would guide them to do. Again you are placing yourself above God, above creation. You are better than the prime mover. Can I have your autograph? :P :coolio
I hope I was clear on this. This is a lot to swallow and I don't expect anyone to just go, "I believe". In fact I would question that. I went from Atheist to a full devotion not because someone told me something and a lightbulb went off, it was a very deep and personal experience I simply cannot explain and not only profoundly changed me but opened my life into something that is so grand and beautiful the only thing I want to do is try and share that picture. :) Your life is yours. you can choose to let yourself guide your actions or allow God to guide them. Do whatever is comfortable. This is another reason why I find evalgelicals a bit disturbing. They try to force salvation down your throat. I cannot stress how dangerous this is. In my opinion this is how extremists and terrorists are born.
Be prepared for a wall of text here. First off, the second paragraph certainly pissed me off. I don't think that was your intention (But if it was, you certainly succeeded!). You're pretty much calling me out for being arrogant for simply not believing what you do, when you seem to come off as arrogant, personally. I have no issues with someone following god if they so choose. That's fine, that's what they've chosen to do. However, that entire paragraph boils down to (From what I interpret at least), "If you don't follow god, you're a retard". Albeit, its worded more eloquently than that, but that's the gist of what I got. That if someone does not follow god, then you are automatically assuming that I consider myself better than him. I don't, I don't really give a damn about your god. That's one thing that infuriates me, is the assumption that if I do not follow your god, then I must think I am better than god. I just want to live my life how I choose to do so, without any sort of regard for or against your god.
Another thing, I have no problems with living life as a flawed human being. I love it. I love every second of it. I wouldn't want perfection, even if it was possible. Because it would be incredibly boring. After all, if you have achieved perfection, then what else is there to live for? You are at the height of creation itself, so you have nothing more to do. No, I think I like being a normal, flawed human who screws things up. It suits me just fine. I'm not trying to be above god or creation or what have you. I'd just rather live in my own existence unbothered by these things :) So whatever. I don't really care if my human existence is flawed, I consider it better than a presumptuous "perfect" existence would ever be, provided perfection even exists.
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Be prepared for a wall of text here. First off, the second paragraph certainly pissed me off. I don't think that was your intention (But if it was, you certainly succeeded!). You're pretty much calling me out for being arrogant for simply not believing what you do, when you seem to come off as arrogant, personally. I have no issues with someone following god if they so choose. That's fine, that's what they've chosen to do. However, that entire paragraph boils down to (From what I interpret at least), "If you don't follow god, you're a retard". Albeit, its worded more eloquently than that, but that's the gist of what I got. That if someone does not follow god, then you are automatically assuming that I consider myself better than him. I don't, I don't really give a damn about your god. That's one thing that infuriates me, is the assumption that if I do not follow your god, then I must think I am better than god. I just want to live my life how I choose to do so, without any sort of regard for or against your god.
Another thing, I have no problems with living life as a flawed human being. I love it. I love every second of it. I wouldn't want perfection, even if it was possible. Because it would be incredibly boring. After all, if you have achieved perfection, then what else is there to live for? You are at the height of creation itself, so you have nothing more to do. No, I think I like being a normal, flawed human who screws things up. It suits me just fine. I'm not trying to be above god or creation or what have you. I'd just rather live in my own existence unbothered by these things :) So whatever. I don't really care if my human existence is flawed, I consider it better than a presumptuous "perfect" existence would ever be, provided perfection even exists.
you are taking something philosophical and making it personal. That whole paragraph is simply just explaining what people asked for on this topic in a logical and reasonable statement. There is nothing in there that is arrogant and if you see that I'm sorry, but it's a philosophical paragraph. It would be like someone concluding an argument on the existance of intelligent life. That's all that paragraph is.
This is one of the largest reasons I avoid discussions like this on forums and usually test things out first. Sorry if I offended you but you are actually taking this way too personally when it wasn't meant to be that way at all. It's not a problem but I hope this isn't the norm on this forum.
Also and this will be my final words on the topic, if you believe in hell then you must believe there is a heaven as well or why ask the question? In words above, why do you care either way what a religious person thinks of you and where you are going? If you don't believe in God then you don't believe in Heaven or Hell. So what's the point?
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Be prepared for a wall of text here. First off, the second paragraph certainly pissed me off. I don't think that was your intention (But if it was, you certainly succeeded!). You're pretty much calling me out for being arrogant for simply not believing what you do, when you seem to come off as arrogant, personally. I have no issues with someone following god if they so choose. That's fine, that's what they've chosen to do. However, that entire paragraph boils down to (From what I interpret at least), "If you don't follow god, you're a retard". Albeit, its worded more eloquently than that, but that's the gist of what I got. That if someone does not follow god, then you are automatically assuming that I consider myself better than him. I don't, I don't really give a damn about your god. That's one thing that infuriates me, is the assumption that if I do not follow your god, then I must think I am better than god. I just want to live my life how I choose to do so, without any sort of regard for or against your god.
Another thing, I have no problems with living life as a flawed human being. I love it. I love every second of it. I wouldn't want perfection, even if it was possible. Because it would be incredibly boring. After all, if you have achieved perfection, then what else is there to live for? You are at the height of creation itself, so you have nothing more to do. No, I think I like being a normal, flawed human who screws things up. It suits me just fine. I'm not trying to be above god or creation or what have you. I'd just rather live in my own existence unbothered by these things :) So whatever. I don't really care if my human existence is flawed, I consider it better than a presumptuous "perfect" existence would ever be, provided perfection even exists.
you are taking something philosophical and making it personal. That whole paragraph is simply just explaining what people asked for on this topic in a logical and reasonable statement. There is nothing in there that is arrogant and if you see that I'm sorry, but it's a philosophical paragraph. It would be like someone concluding an argument on the existance of intelligent life. That's all that paragraph is.
This is one of the largest reasons I avoid discussions like this on forums and usually test things out first. Sorry if I offended you but you are actually taking this way too personally when it wasn't meant to be that way at all. It's not a problem but I hope this isn't the norm on this forum.
Also and this will be my final words on the topic, if you believe in hell then you must believe there is a heaven as well or why ask the question? In words above, why do you care either way what a religious person thinks of you and where you are going? If you don't believe in God then you don't believe in Heaven or Hell. So what's the point?
I know that's what it was doing, its just the overall tone of how it was said came off as arrogant to me, and it didn't help that it seemed like you were labeling me as arrogant for disagreeing with you.
I've always separated philosophy and religion. Sure, you can link them together but I've always preferred to separate them for myself. Sorry about taking it personally though, I've grown up around the bible belt though and I'm really used to getting into heated arguments like this. But to answer your question: I don't believe in heaven or hell simply because the notion of a place being 100% good or 100% evil is nonsense to me. Everything has both in it, so having a place that is one or the other is silly. I can understand why someone would believe in it though, it just doesn't make sense to me, that's all. I suppose just as a result of where I've grown up (Deep south), that religion is a bit of a hot-button thing I react to very quickly. I guess I should apologize myself in that case :lol
I mean no hard feelings against you either, you seem like a good person. Just the tone of your paragraph kind of set me off. :lol
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It's not a problem. It's probably good to note that whatever I write I don't mean it to sound condescending. When I want to be condescending that will be very easy to spot.
I think to separate philosophy and theology is a mistake. They both come from the same disciplines. I have a feeling and this is only an opinion of course that certainly people "want" to separate it in order to distance themselves from it. That's fine, but to simply state theology is not a philsophy unfortunately is an incorrect evaluation of the discipline. In philosophy we ask "What is the meaning of existance?" In theology we ask "What is the meaning of existance with God?"
Also to better clear more the air, when it comes to that second paragraph again, all of it is irrelavant if you take away the first assumption. I felt I could without fault assume #1 given the nature of the question, "Why is God's light greater than any other light?". this question assumes the existance of God. If the question is asked and the person does not believe in God then I have to question the logic. That is if you don't believe in God then what does it matter. If you ask the question is X greater than Y but not believe in X, then what difference does it make. Hence why I was confused as to why anyone would what I wrote down as arrogant or personal. Why ask the question when you've already answered it? "Why is the light of god greater than any other light". Well without the existance of God, then there is no light of God, therefore the question cannot be answered. So again, I hope you see why I'm confused as to the labeling of the sentence as arrogant when you cannot fault me for assuming that the person who asked the question believed in God. ;)
The same logic is applied to the original question of the thread. If the person doesn't believe in God than the question, "Am I going to Hell?" is irrelevant. What difference does it make. You don't believe in God, which means you don't believe in Heaven and Hell since to believe in Heaven and Hell implies a belief in the afterlife which implies a belief in God. ;)
So in the end, I hope I have cleared any misconceptions here and have hopefully provided an answer to the question at hand.
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I've read a lot of this thread, and I have a question. So jesus was around about 2000 years ago, right? And the bible, the 'word of god' was written about 50 years after, give or take. There had been people on Earth for several thousands of years before year 0, even if you believe the Earth was created around 5000 years ago, so what became of the people who were born and died before jesus turned up and started spreading the word? If they were created by god, then they too would have had sin within them the same as everybody else, but they had no guide to lead them along the right path, so were they just allowed to burn in hell regardless? That wouldn't be very merciful. But they can't have all just had a free pass to heaven, because there would have been evil people amongst them. So were their souls just discarded, cast into limbo or destroyed? That means they never had a chance at eternal bliss. Is that fair?
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the Angel do not have freewill.
Was discussing this with some friends of mine the other night. We came to the conclusion that the Angels do indeed have freewill, if they didnt, Lucifer never would've made the choice to rebel.
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the Angel do not have freewill.
Was discussing this with some friends of mine the other night. We came to the conclusion that the Angels do indeed have freewill, if they didnt, Lucifer never would've made the choice to rebel.
Agreed. I've never heard a defensible response to that.
@Arch Benemy: There's no definitive answer that I'm aware of, and there's a wide range of opinions on that within Christianity. Some think those souls remain in some sort of limbo, some think they had Jesus' sacrifice retroactively applied to them, some think they went to hell, some think they were saved but to a "lesser degree". The same issue comes up when discussing post-Jesus "rule exceptions" like babies who die before baptism/conversion, mentally challenged people, etc.
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I've read a lot of this thread, and I have a question. So jesus was around about 2000 years ago, right? And the bible, the 'word of god' was written about 50 years after, give or take. There had been people on Earth for several thousands of years before year 0, even if you believe the Earth was created around 5000 years ago, so what became of the people who were born and died before jesus turned up and started spreading the word? If they were created by god, then they too would have had sin within them the same as everybody else, but they had no guide to lead them along the right path, so were they just allowed to burn in hell regardless? That wouldn't be very merciful. But they can't have all just had a free pass to heaven, because there would have been evil people amongst them. So were their souls just discarded, cast into limbo or destroyed? That means they never had a chance at eternal bliss. Is that fair?
Well, justification at anytime in human history is always by faith. For example, Abraham did not know anything about Jesus, but he had faith in God, and that was counted to him for righteousness. Indeed, his sin was blotted out by Jesus's death, but Abraham didn't know that. He just knew what God wanted from him, and he did that. If you are truly curious, I would recommend Romans 4.