Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Sycsa]

if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple

With Now What?!, Steve Morse finally figured out how to play Purple. Before that, I always took issue with him as well. Great, great album. Better late than never.

[TheGreatPretender]

Two things:  one, it WASN'T just Mike, and I know that.   But I take the approach that a band is like a sports team, and changing one member by definition changes the dynamic of the whole.   For me, I though Mike's prodding/suggesting/haranguing (depending on what camp you are in) made James a better singer.  I just listened to ADTOE last night, and other than This is The Life (which is a top 5 song for me) there was nothing on there that made me go "Whoa!". 

Two, it's not any one thing.  Granted, I like the rotating setlists, not because I see multiple shows, but because 1) it creates a mystery before the show that doesn't otherwise exist nowadays, and 2) I think it makes them play better and with more fire, more urgency, and more diligence.  And I have every Ytsejam CD release (I was working on the DVDs before the break) so that is a plus.  It's just a general vibe and a general accessibility and openness that I think is missing.  I don't expect JP or JR or JLB or JMX to be something they're not.   That is unrealistic (even though the band themselves committed to just that at the time).  Again I go back to the sports analogy, and how its as much the way the parts interact as it is the parts themselves.

Lol, two things. One, regarding what you said about James, I agree with you. But quite frankly, listening to BC&SL, there wasn't anything that made me go "Whoa!" either. And when it comes to vocal melodies, and JLB parts in general, I'd say DT12 is much better than BCSL. So I wouldn't give MP the entire credit for making JLB parts interesting. I'm sure he contributed, but I'd give just as much credit to JP and some to JLB for how interesting (or uninteresting) some of their vocal melodies may be.

Two, you're right, it is kind of like a sports team, but if anything, I'd say their dynamics (at least on stage) have been their best in a long time. It's no longer, "The Mike Portnoy show featuring these other guys." Now it feels so much more like a true collective effort. Honestly, I always liked MP, but I still felt like he hogged the spotlight a little too much. And whether you liked that or not, I don't think that's ever been what made DT special. Not to me anyway. So I guess that's just a matter of preference. I really prefer the band dynamic the way it is now.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Aside from The Final Frontier tour and the festivals, the only constants were A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. There was plenty of variation. See https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0

Right, I believe AROP was played pretty much every show, no? So the only constants were ANTR, AROP, and TCOT. They basically then switched out over half the show from night to night. The setlist wasn't very long, so that may add to the illusion that things weren't rotating, when in fact over half the show rotated on a nightly basis.

Exactly - and if you were to look at the setlists from Australia on that tour (where they did do 2 hour sets), you'd see even more variation. In fact they did back-to-back shows in Melbourne, and only ANtR and TCoT were played both nights.
 
 

It's hard to imagine MP back in DT at this stage of the game..maybe for a one-time show...and that's a big MAYBE. But on a full time basis, I don't think so. Would be hard for the current DT to get out of their current comfort zone...Seems like they seem more relaxed than when MP was around.

Agreed - as of now, I can't imagine MP coming back to DT full-time. However, the one way that I can imagine them extending the invitation to him is if their popularity really starts to dwindle and they find themselves playing the same venues they did in the 90s. At that point, JP might start to think about what it would take to bring back the audience, and at that point he might think a reunion with MP would do the trick (and I think it would to some degree). If the band was to invite MP back, there definitely would be some negotiating on the control aspect of who oversees what. I don't expect that things will be like they were when MP was first in the band, but I imagine that MP would require that he oversee certain things as part of his agreement to rejoin the band.

As a side point, I find it interesting that, at least on the surface, it doesn't appear that MP has absolute (or near absolute) control of any of the bands that he's currently involved in - all of them seem to be more like democracies or are directed by others in the band. With that being the case, I wonder why that couldn't have been the case in DT originally, so that MP didn't feel burned out like he did by 2010.

Maybe Mike learned from his experience in Dream Theater and realized that he couldn't take on everything otherwise he will get burned out again.

[TheGreatPretender]

Maybe Mike learned from his experience in Dream Theater and realized that he couldn't take on everything otherwise he will get burned out again.

Well, you have to also accept that not everybody is as mellow and easy going as JP and the rest of DT. And the people Mike is working with now are all alumni of other bands, some of which were more influential than DT, so he can't just claim everything as "his baby" and tell them he's going to be calling the shots. It's a different dynamic than what it was with DT. But yes, you're right, it really seems like he just wants to unwind and have fun with some of these bands, just immerse himself in the music, and not so much the business.

[bosk1]

Maybe Mike learned from his experience in Dream Theater and realized that he couldn't take on everything otherwise he will get burned out again.

Well, you have to also accept that not everybody is as mellow and easy going as JP and the rest of DT.

I think "easy going" might not be the most accurate.  I mean, I don't know JP well, but from having met him a few times, he strikes me as someone who definitely has strong opinions and is not shy at all about voicing them.  But he is also diplomatic and seems like he is a "pick your battles" kind of guy rather than trying to push every point, whereas I think Mike was more of the type to try to push everything.  I get the sense that, for example, if John had 10 ideas that he felt strongly about, he might pick the top 3 that were really important, make sure to push those hard, pick the next three and push them but be willing to back down, and just let the rest go in the interest of letting others get their ideas in.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think "easy going" might not be the most accurate.  I mean, I don't know JP well, but from having met him a few times, he strikes me as someone who definitely has strong opinions and is not shy at all about voicing them.  But he is also diplomatic and seems like he is a "pick your battles" kind of guy rather than trying to push every point, whereas I think Mike was more of the type to try to push everything.  I get the sense that, for example, if John had 10 ideas that he felt strongly about, he might pick the top 3 that were really important, make sure to push those hard, pick the next three and push them but be willing to back down, and just let the rest go in the interest of letting others get their ideas in.

You're right, he has been described in the book by... Someone... One of the studio people he worked with, as being very opinionated. But I'm also sure that that kind of thing pertains a whole lot more to the music than anything else. To being insistent on having certain parts a certain way, or having his gear sounding just right.
But when MP quit and they were still getting the, "Mike Portnoy was doing all this stuff, and now he quit, is it hard taking over all that stuff for him?" JP did say something along the lines of, "Well, we all know how to do that stuff. It's not that we can't, it's just that Mike was really adamant and enthusiastic about doing that stuff, so we said, okay, if you really want to do it, then go ahead." So in that respect, it is kind of an easy going attitude, that probably came with the fact that MP did always try to go out of his way to do what was best for the band, so JP probably trusted MP, when it came to Ytsejam releases, setlists, and all that stuff.

[Grizz]

it doesn't appear that MP has absolute (or near absolute) control of any of the bands that he's currently involved in - all of them seem to be more like democracies or are directed by others in the band. With that being the case, I wonder why that couldn't have been the case in DT originally, so that MP didn't feel burned out like he did by 2010.

Maybe everyone feels that they learned from that mistake?
Plus, none of his other bands have been long term full time- he wants The Winery Dogs to become this, but who knows.

Also, if I saw them in Toad's Place and then they invited MP back I'd have a pretty happy adulthood.

[Skeever]

As for the last, I would take out "thankfully".  For me, it's just not the same.   DT was a special band for me, separate from the pack, and now they are one of many pretty good bands I listen to.  I'm a realist, though, in that I don't pine for anything (if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple, not Portnoy back into DT) but I don't typically play that game.  It is what it is.

Well, that is unfortunate. To me they're as special as ever. The past 2 albums have been a big improvement over BC&SL, and everything that made DT special, wasn't done because of Mike Portnoy alone. I do think they should pick up doing Ytsejam releases, although without rotating set lists or demos, there is little potential for that anyway. It's not like we're going to see or hear something we don't already see or hear on their official live releases. And everything else that we haven't heard on their ADTOE tour we got for Christmas, for free, so that was really awesome of them. The only other thing they could do better is documentary footage. Jordan Rudess seems to have really taken a liking to the camera, with all the Youtube stuff he's been doing, so I would love to see him record a full on behind the scenes making of documentary for their next album, the way MP did for Systematic Chaos. But aside from that, I'd say their standards of excellence are as great as ever, and their live shows are better than ever in terms of production and polish, if you ask me.
I can understand the non-rotating set lists might be a bit dull for someone who goes to see them live more than once or twice, but for everyone else, who only gets to see them once, it's better I think, because I won't be sitting here thinking, "Aww dammit, Montreal got Metropolis AND Hollow Years, meanwhile Toronto got The Great Debate and New Millennium. That sucks!"

I can't say I agree. I listened to Scenes and Six Degrees back to back today and, honestly, felt like I was listening to a different band.More and more, ToT feels like a massive miss for me, and while the last two albums were better than the three before them, they are still nothing compared to the glory days.

[TheGreatPretender]

I can't say I agree. I listened to Scenes and Six Degrees back to back today and, honestly, felt like I was listening to a different band.More and more, ToT feels like a massive miss for me, and while the last two albums were better than the three before them, they are still nothing compared to the glory days.

Yeah, but for most bands, their magnum opus comes very early on, and for DT, many people would say that's true too with Images and Words. The sheer fact that they were able to create such albums as Scenes and Six Degrees that managed to take the #1 place in the hearts of so many fans is nothing short of astounding, and doesn't happen very often at all. But to expect them to top even that, is a little unreasonable.

[Skeever]

Sure, my non-controversial opinion is that DT's two best albums (Images and Awake) are better than most my favorite band's best two albums, and DT's NEXT best two albums (Scenes and SDOIT) are also better than most of my favorite band's best two albums. However, DT's third best two albums (ADTOE and DT12) would be near the bottom, if compared to the best two albums of other bands I love. So, there ya go. DT, only TWICE as good as most band. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Sure, my non-controversial opinion is that DT's two best albums (Images and Awake) are better than most my favorite band's best two albums, and DT's NEXT best two albums (Scenes and SDOIT) are also better than most of my favorite band's best two albums. However, DT's third best two albums (ADTOE and DT12) would be near the bottom, if compared to the best two albums of other bands I love. So, there ya go. DT, only TWICE as good as most band.

Well, I agree with your first two points. DT's two best albums (I&W and SFAM) and DT's next best two albums, (SC and DT12) are better than most bands' best two albums. 

[Randaran]

This is in response to a few posts from the IaW thread, but I thought that it would fit better in this one.

The UaGM solo is one of JP's weakest.

Yes, there are many cool melodic ideas in it. The pedal 5ths lick is amazing, and several others are pretty good. But they are not combined into a cohesive whole. Many of the faster phrases, such as the sweep-tapping section, sound like speed building exercises haphazardly thrown together. The flow is poor, which instantly makes it inferior to most of JP's other solos.

[hefdaddy42]

That IS controversial. 

[BlobVanDam]

There's a first time for every opinion I guess.

And for once it wasn't me.

[Zook]

This is in response to a few posts from the IaW thread, but I thought that it would fit better in this one.

The UaGM solo is one of JP's weakest.

Yes, there are many cool melodic ideas in it. The pedal 5ths lick is amazing, and several others are pretty good. But they are not combined into a cohesive whole. Many of the faster phrases, such as the sweep-tapping section, sound like speed building exercises haphazardly thrown together. The flow is poor, which instantly makes it inferior to most of JP's other solos.

[erwinrafael]

Didn't somebody say before that JP's solo in Another Day is better than the one in UaGM?

Was that me?

[TheGreatPretender]

I think JP's solo in As I Am is better than the one in UAGM. Does that count as controversial?

[hefdaddy42]

I think JP's solo in As I Am is better than the one in UAGM. Does that count as controversial?

Yes, I would think so.

[TheGreatPretender]

That's not to say I don't like the UAGM solo. It is pretty awesome.

[rumborak]

The UAGM solo was the first DT solo I attempted. Because it is so awesome.

The AIA solo isn't bad, but in hindsight it was JP's beginning of switching to mostly chromatic shredding in his solos, which is a bummer.

[JiM-Xtreme]

I think JP's solo in As I Am is better than the one in UAGM. Does that count as controversial?

Not to me, both are amazing. They are the first solos I'd point someone to if I wanted to introduce JP to them as a guitarist.

[TheGreatPretender]

The UAGM solo was the first DT solo I attempted. Because it is so awesome.

Well, it is the solo that finally got UAGM to click for me. Before that, I considered it a generic filler by DT standards.

[BlobVanDam]

I think JP's solo in As I Am is better than the one in UAGM. Does that count as controversial?

Not at all. They're both definitely among JP's best solos.

[Mosh]

Agreed. They're both pretty representative of his two major styles. UAGM with his jazz fusion infused playing with a nice groove and rhythmic variety, As I Am showcasing his ability to shred relentlessly while still (imo) being melodic about it and having coherency rather than a random flurry of notes.

[TheGreatPretender]

My controversial opinion for the day:

I think The Looking Glass is a failure as a song. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the song as I love the whole album. But before the album came out, when JP was doing a song by song description of the album, he described wanting to make this song have a smiliar energy to a stadium rock song. And in that respect, I think it did not succeed at all, IMO. The one key aspect of stadium rock is that it's very Anthemic as a subgenre. Every stadium rock act I could think of from Bon Jovi, to Queen, to Europe was ridiculously catchy, and had a lot of (as much as I hate this term) singalongability. Even if you think it's cheesy, you have to admit, when it comes on, there's something about it that just stirs up some inert energy and gets the energy going. In terms of the energy and spirit, I'd say modern European Power Metal acts are the equivalent of old school Stadium Rock acts.
With The Looking Glass, it doesn't evoke that kind of energy for me at all. Great song, but it did not live up to the hype that JP built up by comparing it to stadium rock.

[Rodni Demental]

If someone mentions a DT song I can normally think of what it's solo(s) sounds like. But I can't do it for Under a Glass Moon... Guess I'm not as familiar as I thought, I'll probably remember as soon as I hear it but it's never stood out enough for me to go wow, this is something I will remember. 

As for The Looking Glass, I follow you there. I don't evoke any feelings of stadium rock from the song. Catchy song in it's own regard but maybe turned into something else along the way from how it was originally envisioned. Then again, I didn't see it live, but watching the more processed version on youtube or BTFW doesn't really evoke those feelings either.

[TheGreatPretender]

If someone mentions a DT song I can normally think of what it's solo(s) sounds like. But I can't do it for Under a Glass Moon... Guess I'm not as familiar as I thought, I'll probably remember as soon as I hear it but it's never stood out enough for me to go wow, this is something I will remember. 

Hearing it in its distilled form is how I learned to love it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVmq2C5kLoM

I also made it my ringtone for a while. 

As for The Looking Glass, I follow you there. I don't evoke any feelings of stadium rock from the song. Catchy song in it's own regard but maybe turned into something else along the way from how it was originally envisioned. Then again, I didn't see it live, but watching the more processed version on youtube or BTFW doesn't really evoke those feelings either.

Well, I saw it live, but yeah, it didn't just magically transform into something else entirely seeing it live, haha.

Honestly, when it comes to that kind of energy, DT doesn't have too many songs. But if I had to pick some that had that kind of an anthemic feel to them, Overture 1928 (in spite of not having vocals) instantly comes to mind, aside from that, most of their really energetic stuff is darker and more of a headbanging kind of energy than a Rocky Montage kind of energy, lol.

[abydos]

That sounded a lot worse than on the studio version. I guess it's just the different guitar tones/different level of distortion?

[TheGreatPretender]

That sounded a lot worse than on the studio version. I guess it's just the different guitar tones/different level of distortion?

Plus he doesn't have a drummer to keep a proper rhythm, I guess.

[BlobVanDam]

My controversial opinion for the day:

I think The Looking Glass is a failure as a song. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the song as I love the whole album. But before the album came out, when JP was doing a song by song description of the album, he described wanting to make this song have a smiliar energy to a stadium rock song. And in that respect, I think it did not succeed at all, IMO. The one key aspect of stadium rock is that it's very Anthemic as a subgenre. Every stadium rock act I could think of from Bon Jovi, to Queen, to Europe was ridiculously catchy, and had a lot of (as much as I hate this term) singalongability. Even if you think it's cheesy, you have to admit, when it comes on, there's something about it that just stirs up some inert energy and gets the energy going. In terms of the energy and spirit, I'd say modern European Power Metal acts are the equivalent of old school Stadium Rock acts.
With The Looking Glass, it doesn't evoke that kind of energy for me at all. Great song, but it did not live up to the hype that JP built up by comparing it to stadium rock.

While I agree with all of that, I don't think that makes it a failure of a song, that just makes it a failure of a description.

[TheGreatPretender]

While I agree with all of that, I don't think that makes it a failure of a song, that just makes it a failure of a description.

What I meant is, it failed to accomplish what it originally intended. It's like trying to make a summer action blockbuster, and ending up with a serious crime thriller.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

While I agree with all of that, I don't think that makes it a failure of a song, that just makes it a failure of a description.

What I meant is, it failed to accomplish what it originally intended. It's like trying to make a summer action blockbuster, and ending up with a serious crime thriller.

I think we're past the 'era' of stadium rock hits, so it doesn't matter much.

[BlobVanDam]

While I agree with all of that, I don't think that makes it a failure of a song, that just makes it a failure of a description.

What I meant is, it failed to accomplish what it originally intended. It's like trying to make a summer action blockbuster, and ending up with a serious crime thriller.

Eh, it's just semantics to me. It's obviously not stadium rock, but I'm not big on using labels to judge something. I get what you're saying, but it doesn't change the end result, which is all I care about.

[TheGreatPretender]

Eh, it's just semantics to me. It's obviously not stadium rock, but I'm not big on using labels to judge something. I get what you're saying, but it doesn't change the end result, which is all I care about.

Well, the end result is great, but when JP was talking about it, all I could think is, "Oh man, I can't wait to hear DT do an actual anthem that will just instantly pump me up full of energy and excitement!" And I mean, DT by default does that to me anyway, I was just hoping for something that would take it to the next level. It doesn't have to be a stadium rock 'hit', but for example, Overture 1928 has that effect, it just instills excitement. About To Crash Reprise, as soon as that comes on, it just pumps you right up. When the quiet part at the beginning of Octavarium ends and the orchestra comes in, is also one of those moments. I was hoping for something like that, only more rock driven, and catchy. Heck, even the part after the orchestral bit of IT.

[erwinrafael]

Eh, it's just semantics to me. It's obviously not stadium rock, but I'm not big on using labels to judge something. I get what you're saying, but it doesn't change the end result, which is all I care about.

Well, the end result is great, but when JP was talking about it, all I could think is, "Oh man, I can't wait to hear DT do an actual anthem that will just instantly pump me up full of energy and excitement!" And I mean, DT by default does that to me anyway, I was just hoping for something that would take it to the next level. It doesn't have to be a stadium rock 'hit', but for example, Overture 1928 has that effect, it just instills excitement. About To Crash Reprise, as soon as that comes on, it just pumps you right up. When the quiet part at the beginning of Octavarium ends and the orchestra comes in, is also one of those moments. I was hoping for something like that, only more rock driven, and catchy. Heck, even the part after the orchestral bit of IT.

Well, take the description of JP with a grain of salt. He might actually be just messing with the interviewer with that description because the song's lyrics is the most anti-stadium rock ever.

"You are caught up in your gravity
Glorifying stardom
Singing your own praise."

Obviously not an anthem.