Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions

[KevShmev]

Like I have said before, I agree that all of the long songs on BC&SL have one major flaw/section that stands out, keeping them from being truly great from start to finish.  Honestly, I think if Portnoy had written lyrics for The Best of Times that were as good as the ones for A Change of Seasons (given the comparable subject matters), I really think the song would be much more highly-regarded; musically, it is that good.  But the lyrics are so mediocre and awkward (despite the subject matter) that is prevents the song from attaining awesome status.  It's still really good, though.  Really, there are days when I think it might be the best song on BC&SL, but the first four and last nine minutes of The Count are hard to beat (on that album).

And ADTOE is still better.

[TAC]

The lyrics to TBOT might get a little clunky, but the honesty is so loud and clear that in the end, I find they say exactly what MP feels and given the subject matter, the song, lyrics included, are such an incredibly moving song. Musically it's spectaculer. The intro is just amazing, one of the most beutiful passages in their catalog.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

The lyrics to TBOT might get a little clunky, but the honesty is so loud and clear that in the end, I find they say exactly what MP feels and given the subject matter, the song, lyrics included, are such an incredibly moving song. Musically it's spectaculer. The intro is just amazing, one of the most beutiful passages in their catalog.

The lyrics to that song aren't the problem on the album, though they aren't spectacular. Count's lyrics are laughable and the last part of Nightmare ("day after day, night after night, etc.) are hard to take seriously. Those 2 sets of lyrics alone are some of the worst lyrics we have in the prog-metal genre.

[antigoon]

Honestly, I think if Portnoy had written lyrics for The Best of Times that were as good as the ones for A Change of Seasons (given the comparable subject matters), I really think the song would be much more highly-regarded; musically, it is that good.  But the lyrics are so mediocre and awkward (despite the subject matter) that is prevents the song from attaining awesome status.

I completely agree with this. It's a real shame, and I still feel terrible for saying that given the circumstances.

[KevShmev]

Honestly, I think if Portnoy had written lyrics for The Best of Times that were as good as the ones for A Change of Seasons (given the comparable subject matters), I really think the song would be much more highly-regarded; musically, it is that good.  But the lyrics are so mediocre and awkward (despite the subject matter) that is prevents the song from attaining awesome status.

I completely agree with this. It's a real shame, and I still feel terrible for saying that given the circumstances.

It makes me wonder if, in his latter day DT days, Portnoy took the same approach to writing lyrics that he did with playing his drum parts: just get in there and get it over with.  He admits on the Neal Morse Testimony Two documentary that he likes to get in there and play and go for it and not take too much time, so I wonder if he applied that same philosophy to writing lyrics that he did with his drum parts.  And that is not meant to imply that he half-assed writing lyrics about his father's death, but merely that he became convinced that he could just spit something out just like that and not need to go back and rework it and/or make it better.  We all fall into bad habits here and there, and that might have been his, without him even knowing it. 

[Jaq]

When BC&SL came out, I put it at about the mid-point of their albums, just as many above as there were below.

These days the only album below it is WDADU, and honestly that changes from day to day.

I have noticed when some people are talking about BC&SL, when they praise it, they praise sections of songs. Not the whole thing. Hell, even I do it when I consider TBOT and TCOT. True there are people who like all of ANTR, but for every one of them there's five praising the Beautiful Agony section and nothing else from it. And that's the album in a nutshell for me; there are some brilliant, amazing parts, but they are buried by the flaws, the bad, the bland, and the actively boring. People are saying there are sections of songs on BC & SL that are magical, and that's fine, but when I listen to BC & SL now, I hear a tired band. A band that had fallen into a rut, and was incapable of making magic for an entire song, only for sections of it, and each bit of magic was far less than what the band was truly capable of.

Interestingly for me, now, the best song on the album is now Wither: it's nowhere near the band's best power ballad, but it's the most consistent song, from start to finish, all the way through on BC&SL. There isn't a dreadful lyric or a misplaced tough guy vocal or a dull bit of instrumental wankery in it. It's the only song that doesn't have a part that makes me wince.

[BlobVanDam]

I have noticed when some people are talking about BC&SL, when they praise it, they praise sections of songs. Not the whole thing. Hell, even I do it when I consider TBOT and TCOT. True there are people who like all of ANTR, but for every one of them there's five praising the Beautiful Agony section and nothing else from it. And that's the album in a nutshell for me; there are some brilliant, amazing parts, but they are buried by the flaws, the bad, the bland, and the actively boring. People are saying there are sections of songs on BC & SL that are magical, and that's fine, but when I listen to BC & SL now, I hear a tired band. A band that had fallen into a rut, and was incapable of making magic for an entire song, only for sections of it, and each bit of magic was far less than what the band was truly capable of.

To me ADTOE sounds a lot more like a band in a rut who hasn't been able to find a new sound. OTBOA just sounds so flat and lifeless, almost like a computer is performing the music for them. Nothing here sounds new to me. That to me is a tired band. Then we have ANTR, which just kicks off with such energy and life unlike anything on ADTOE, and sounds like a band who loves what they are doing.
ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness.

For the record, in my most recent ranking, BCASL was only just above ADTOE right near the bottom of my rankings, so I'm not arguing that BCASL is a great album while ADTOE is terrible. They both average out to weaker DT albums, but in very different ways. But I'll take an amazing song with some slight faults over a decent song that doesn't excite me or offend me.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I have noticed when some people are talking about BC&SL, when they praise it, they praise sections of songs. Not the whole thing. Hell, even I do it when I consider TBOT and TCOT. True there are people who like all of ANTR, but for every one of them there's five praising the Beautiful Agony section and nothing else from it. And that's the album in a nutshell for me; there are some brilliant, amazing parts, but they are buried by the flaws, the bad, the bland, and the actively boring. People are saying there are sections of songs on BC & SL that are magical, and that's fine, but when I listen to BC & SL now, I hear a tired band. A band that had fallen into a rut, and was incapable of making magic for an entire song, only for sections of it, and each bit of magic was far less than what the band was truly capable of.

To me ADTOE sounds a lot more like a band in a rut who hasn't been able to find a new sound. OTBOA just sounds so flat and lifeless, almost like a computer is performing the music for them. Nothing here sounds new to me. That to me is a tired band. Then we have ANTR, which just kicks off with such energy and life unlike anything on ADTOE, and sounds like a band who loves what they are doing.
ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness.

For the record, in my most recent ranking, BCASL was only just above ADTOE right near the bottom of my rankings, so I'm not arguing that BCASL is a great album while ADTOE is terrible. They both average out to weaker DT albums, but in very different ways. But I'll take an amazing song with some slight faults over a decent song that doesn't excite me or offend me.

Lol, actually it sounds like a band that just got OUT of a rut. It sounds like a band that has gotten a kick in the ass and has returned to form except pushed their boundaries technically and rhythmically. If you're expecting something "new" from DT you shouldn't get your hopes up, depending on what you meant by "new." If you think DT is going to find a "new sound" you're in for a lot of disappointment. DT is a brand now, with an established signature sound and the way in JR spoke about how the band composed pretty much confirms that. Don't expect a "new sound." If they wanted a "new sound" then maybe they should have just picked Virgil Donati as a drummer, right? Just expect high quality songs like we got on ADTOE, and not like BCSL.

"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."

I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.

[Jaq]

Definitely a YMMV moment then, because OTBOA to me is a joyous explosion of music, of a band finding themselves again, while ANTR almost verges into parody on many occasions BEFORE you get to the awful wanna be death metal parts. We're definitely on opposite poles here. 

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Definitely a YMMV moment then, because OTBOA to me is a joyous explosion of music, of a band finding themselves again, while ANTR almost verges into parody on many occasions BEFORE you get to the awful wanna be death metal parts. We're definitely on opposite poles here. 

This.

[KevShmev]

A band doesn't have to do something new or reinvent itself to write good music or sound like they are not in a rut.  ADTOE is the most energetic the band has sounded since Train of Thought, IMO.

[BlobVanDam]

"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."

I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.

My comment was self explanatory, and since you have trouble accepting other opinions, it' not worth my time to explain it further to you.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."

I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.

My comment was self explanatory, and since you have trouble accepting other opinions, it' not worth my time to explain it further to you.

They (your comments about ADTOE) really weren't self explanatory lol. They were so vague that one could be justified in thinking they didn't mean anything at all other than "I don't like it." I accept all opinions that are different, except in certain instances which I mentioned earlier in the thread, in which people say something so out there, it doesn't warrant protection under the "opinion" label. For example, someone telling me that Reload is a better Metallica album than Puppets.

If you don't want to explain it, fine. But I really was curious as to what you meant by that. Are you hinting that BCSL is an album with "highs and lows?"

[BlobVanDam]

"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."

I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.

My comment was self explanatory, and since you have trouble accepting other opinions, it' not worth my time to explain it further to you.

They (your comments about ADTOE) really weren't self explanatory lol. They were so vague that one could be justified in thinking they didn't mean anything at all other than "I don't like it." I accept all opinions that are different, except in certain instances which I mentioned earlier in the thread, in which people say something so out there, it doesn't warrant protection under the "opinion" label. For example, someone telling me that Reload is a better Metallica album than Puppets.

If you don't want to explain it, fine. But I really was curious as to what you meant by that. Are you hinting that BCSL is an album with "highs and lows?"

I think I explained my stance on both albums pretty thoroughly to well beyond the point any vagueness of "I don't like it". I never even said I don't like it, so I'm not convinced you're actually reading my posts at all.

If you don't want to accept an opposing yet perfectly valid and reasonable opinion, that's fine. But at least my opinions are thought out and well explained, and not just crap like-

Also, LMAO @ saying Count is better instrumentally than the songs on Events.

So let's not go throwing around such stupid arguments against my posts, huh?

[Tis BOOLsheet]

"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."

I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.

My comment was self explanatory, and since you have trouble accepting other opinions, it' not worth my time to explain it further to you.

They (your comments about ADTOE) really weren't self explanatory lol. They were so vague that one could be justified in thinking they didn't mean anything at all other than "I don't like it." I accept all opinions that are different, except in certain instances which I mentioned earlier in the thread, in which people say something so out there, it doesn't warrant protection under the "opinion" label. For example, someone telling me that Reload is a better Metallica album than Puppets.

If you don't want to explain it, fine. But I really was curious as to what you meant by that. Are you hinting that BCSL is an album with "highs and lows?"

I think I explained my stance on both albums pretty thoroughly to well beyond the point any vagueness of "I don't like it". I never even said I don't like it, so I'm not convinced you're actually reading my posts at all.

If you don't want to accept an opposing yet perfectly valid and reasonable opinion, that's fine. But at least my opinions are thought out and well explained, and not just crap like-

Also, LMAO @ saying Count is better instrumentally than the songs on Events.

Yes, I suppose you explained your stance. Of course, that alone doesn't mean you weren't EXTREMELY vague to the point at which it just sounded funny/odd. Your stance could be just as vague as your explanation. The way in which you described the sound of the album and the opening track just sounded funny to me and made me question if you actually thought about it or were just going by the way the songs made you feel. The words you used conveyed your feeling towards the album, but I'm really not sure how anyone, without making a huge leap of faith, could confidently discern what you meant by "highs and lows" with respect to either the new album OR BCSL in the absence of a more detailed analysis of the albums. It could mean a bunch of different things. If you were trying to illustrate a point by saying that, you might have been better off building up to that by saying something more clear. I'm not saying it's not a valid opinion, I was just asking you to elaborate on what you meant by that.

Anyway, I'm not going to bicker over this. It's done lol. Your stance on Count is clear.

[Cruithne]

The Best of Times: I can't understand why people dislike the song's lyrics. I find that they capture the subject perfectly.

Ever get taught in English lessons that you should avoid repetition of key words?

> Day days days day day days day days day day



(To be fair that's just nitpicking. Lyrics are not essays )

About 8 months after the release of BC&SL my own Father died after a very difficult struggle with Alzheimer's. I now cannot listen to the Strapping Young Lad song Almost Again without tearing up, yet the lyrics to that song are quite abstract and probably weren't written about death. Contrast this with TBOT, which is a song about someone's Father dying, that I can listen to without feeling even the slightest flicker of emotion...

Aside from the "fleeting winds verse" the lyrics largely read like a bullet point list of personal memories transcribed into lyrics almost verbatim. To everyone other than MP and his Dad, and perhaps a few close relatives, they don't mean a damned thing and they're written in such a literal way that I can't imagine someone else being able to find much of their own meaning within the lyrics.

It's not that I dislike the lyrics, as such, and I don't think the lyrics are bad, I just feel like they're insular and, from the POV of being concerned about the average listener, lazy: they're the alternate lyrics to the song that should only have ever been heard by MP, his Dad and close family (who doubtless react(ed) strongly to them) and the rest of us should've heard a generalised version capable of tugging the heart strings of anyone who's suffered a bereavement.

[BlobVanDam]

While I agree that the lyrics of TBOT aren't great, isn't it incredibly selfish to expect that someone should change the lyrics to a song that was written as something deeply personal to them, and criticize it because you can't make it personal to you? Lyricists have no obligation to write lyrics vague enough for your own personal struggles.
Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.

[lionfury]

I loved ANTR and Portnoys vocals never really bugged me that much
I felt that A Rite Of Passage was an average track, didnt really do much for me.
Wither seemed cheesy and the chorus sounds like something out of christian popular music.
I love The Shattered Fortress. Its my second favorite song in the AA suite next to The Glass Prison.
The Best Of Times is great. I think the lyrics are fine
TCOT is a decent song, but the section from 11:00 - 14:18 bores me out of my mind. Its also the only song that I noticed had horrendous lyrics.
Overall it is a decent album but ADTOE is MUCH MUCH better.

[Scorpion]

While I agree that the lyrics of TBOT aren't great, isn't it incredibly selfish to expect that someone should change the lyrics to a song that was written as something deeply personal to them, and criticize it because you can't make it personal to you? Lyricists have no obligation to write lyrics vague enough for your own personal struggles.
Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.

This. Though I do think that the lyrics are good, for precisely this reason.

[KevShmev]

Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.

No offense, but given that, when it comes to lyrics, you seemingly want to be beaten over the head by their meaning , it is grossly unfair to assume that lyrics that don't do that have no depth.  Intentional vague lyrics can often times be really awesome, as it makes the listener think, and I love stuff that makes you think a bit.  Anyone can write direct lyrics where the meaning is more than obvious, but conveying a lyrical message in a less than obvious way is something to be applauded, not scoffed at.  Plus, they can sometimes mean one thing to one person and something else to another.  That is the beauty of words.

[BlobVanDam]

Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.

No offense, but given that, when it comes to lyrics, you seemingly want to be beaten over the head by their meaning , it is grossly unfair to assume that lyrics that don't do that have no depth.  Intentional vague lyrics can often times be really awesome, as it makes the listener think, and I love stuff that makes you think a bit.  Anyone can write direct lyrics where the meaning is more than obvious, but conveying a lyrical message in a less than obvious way is something to be applauded, not scoffed at.  Plus, they can sometimes mean one thing to one person and something else to another.  That is the beauty of words.

I never said I want to be beaten over the head with lyrics, so I'll just ignore that comment  , but why on Earth should Portnoy be writing vague lyrics about the death of his own father? The notion that Cruithne suggested is beyond absolutely ridiculous in this particular instance, and just plain selfish music listening. Portnoy wanted to pay tribute to his father with a song about the times they had, and writing vague lyrics about loss wouldn't have served the purpose of the song.
To me, if lyrics mean one thing to one person, and a different thing to someone else, then that is meaning isn't actually there. You're writing lyrics that rely on the listener putting their own meaning onto it.
Lyrics don't need to be vague to have an emotional response for the listener. Movies don't need to be vague to have depth and emotional resonance, and neither do songs. I don't have a problem with vague lyrics, but I'm not going to give them credit for an interpretation they didn't actually write themselves.

[Ben_Jamin]

ANTR: I enjoy the song and length, the only part where I feel it drags is the weird bebot part before the final chorus.

AROP: it's a cool song but suffers from constant motion syndrome

Wither: an excellent song that can relate to many things, I interpret this as someone with a roadblock in their life, then rewrites.his life beginning anew.

The Shattered Fortress: A great summary to end the AA Suite, The use of past sections really,makes this song scream I have overcome this addiction. Which is why I have no problem with the rehashing because those represent that moment in that step. Which is one thing I think people don't do with music as much.

TBOT: Love it, but the overuse of day is too much. The rest of the lyrics are great because all he's doing is deafening his time with his father, it's a song about his father nothing more nothing less. It's no different than Tool - 10,000 Days (pt. 1 & 2)

TCOT: Another great song, the lyrics like all lyrics don't bother me since I hardly listen to what the lyrics say. The only odd bit is the "down the cellar stairs" melodies, they're odd and ruin the songs momentum. At the end it gets real heartfelt like he felt he was really going to die, then he uplifts his head.and sees the daylight break through the black clouds revealing the silver lining.


Overall it's an excellent album I enjoy playing, it's the album I wanted to see a tour here but sadly nope only AROP opening for Maiden, which they should've ended with The Dark Eternal Night, as that song would leave non fans wanting,more.

[theseoafs]

I don't particularly care how vague the lyrics to TBOT are or should be, but I agree that the lyrics are pretty juvenile. It's the one blemish on what is an otherwise perfect song.

EDIT: I was just thinking about this, and Wither came to mind. There's a song that could have benefited from some vaguer lyrics.

[Adami]

I have heard several songs about people's fathers or loved ones passing away. TBOT suffers because it's SO specific that no one really outside of Portnoy himself can actually relate to much of the song, unless you are just relating to the general idea or a line or two here or there. But if the song was a bit more .....not vague, but less specific to portnoy's life, it would have been better.

[Jaffa]

To me, if lyrics mean one thing to one person, and a different thing to someone else, then that is meaning isn't actually there. You're writing lyrics that rely on the listener putting their own meaning onto it.

This, I have to disagree with.  Sometimes a lyricist (or writer in general) can have a very specific meaning they are putting into the song, but can consciously choose to be vague about that meaning so that a listener (or reader) can get whatever meaning they want from it.  The best example of this, for me, is riddles.  When you create a riddle, you have a specific answer in mind - but that doesn't mean that another person can't come up with a different solution to the riddle, an answer they personally like better. 

True, sometimes vague lyrics are just gibberish, and anyone getting meaning from them is finding something that wasn't really intended to be there.  But sometimes vague lyrics are riddles to be deciphered, and maybe you stumble upon the artist's intention or maybe you find your own interpretation that is just as valid to you. 

This is not to say that vague lyrics are superior.  I do, personally, tend to find them more fun.  Just because I can stare at a song like Under a Glass Moon for eight hours trying to figure out what the hell it means.  Sure, whatever I come up with will probably be wrong, since the lyrics might not have any concrete meaning at all, but I still enjoy trying to puzzle it out.  Whereas with straightforward lyrics, there usually isn't as much to think about.  Which doesn't mean they're bad, it just means they have fewer layers for me to enjoy.

Then again, it's also possible to find your own meaning in songs with straightforward lyrics.  Wither is a song that is quite obviously about the difficulty of the writing process, and I don't dispute that, but it also has other more personal meaning for me.  And while the meaning I get from it was almost certainly not intentional, I still connect with the song more because of that imagined meaning, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. 

I guess my point is that to me, lyrics can be good or bad regardless of whether they are vague or straightforward.


Anyway.  As for the ADTOE vs BC&SL debate, I find the whole debate pretty amusing.  Some people say ADTOE is a 'return to form' while others say it is 'stale' or 'DT-paint-by-numbers.'  What neither side seems to realize is that both sides are basically saying the same thing: ADTOE is a return to a more classic Dream Theater style, with nothing particularly new or groundbreaking.  Some people think that's boring because they enjoy listening to DT explore new styles.  Some people think it's great because they love classic DT.  But at the end of the day, I don't think anyone can really dispute that with ADTOE, DT returned more to their comfort zone, whether you consider that a bad thing or a good one. 

For me, it doesn't really matter.  I think ADTOE is a great album, regardless of how it compares to classic or newer albums.  OTBOA certainly isn't anything new for DT, but I still think it's a great song.


As for BC&SL (hey, I'm finally getting to the actual point of the topic!), I think it is a good-but-not-great album.  I don't actually have any problem with ANTR - okay, maybe the Day After Day section is a little weak, but I don't mind it, and it doesn't take anything away from the song for me.  As a metalhead, if anything, ANTR is closer to my usual tastes than most Dream Theater music.  A Rite of Passage is a fun and catchy song, but not particularly exciting.  One of those songs that I enjoy whenever I listen to it, but that I rarely actually listen to anymore.  Wither is a song I love despite, or maybe even because of, its relative simplicity.  The Count of Tuscany is amazing.  I'm not fond of the lyrics, but I'm able to zone out and not pay attention to the lyrics.  Unlike most people, I do love the vocal melodies, including the chorus.  And it is instrumentally gorgeous.  Definitely my favorite song on the album.

The Shattered Fortress is... okay.  I guess it was a decent way to wrap up the suite.  I don't really have any problem with it, I suppose.  But I look at it as basically a patchwork quilt of sections and melodies from the rest of the suite.  And while those melodies are awesome, they're also recycled.  I've heard them before, and the way they are combined isn't particularly exciting or interesting to me.  It is sort of like listening to a patchy summary of the rest of the suite, with a couple cool new things added.  I would say it's the one song on the album where I can understand what people mean when they say it feels like the band is 'tired' or 'in a rut'.  I can kind of imagine the band sitting in the studio going, "Oh, yeah, we have to finish the suite.  Mike, any ideas?  No?  Okay, let's just throw some stuff together."  Not that that's what actually happened, of course, but I do feel that the song is a somewhat stale finale for the saga. 

The Best of Times... Okay.  This is relevant to the recent debate.  I agree with Blob that Mike Portnoy had no obligation to make this song's lyrics more open and relatable - he was writing a song for himself, for catharsis and expression, and that's great.  I have no problem with that.  But it does have the side effect of making me feel like an outsider when I listen to the song.  It is the emotional equivalent of an inside joke - I'm sure it's hilarious, and you're entitled to tell it, but I just don't get it.  So, while I don't begrudge MP for writing the lyrics he did, the lyrics do take away from my enjoyment of the song.  Instrumentally it's a very nice piece of music.

I honestly think BC&SL's biggest problem is the length of its songs.  Not that length is boring or anything - it's just that if you happen to dislike one song, you probably dislike a significant chunk of the album.  Like, for me, I get a little tired of The Shattered Fortress and sometimes The Best of Times - that's one third of the album right there.  Factor in A Rite of Passage, which is a song that I enjoy but often skip, and I'm left with just three songs on the album I consistently enjoy.  That's simply a low percentage, when it comes to DT albums for me.  Compare it with an album like I&W, where I adore every song, or an album like Octavarium, where I don't love every song but do love the vast majority of the music, and BC&SL simply floats toward the bottom of my rankings.

So in a nutshell, I think it is a good album that just happens to be one of DT's weakest because of a few weak links in the chain.

(...Kudos to anyone who made it through this entire post.)

[KevShmev]

Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.

No offense, but given that, when it comes to lyrics, you seemingly want to be beaten over the head by their meaning , it is grossly unfair to assume that lyrics that don't do that have no depth.  Intentional vague lyrics can often times be really awesome, as it makes the listener think, and I love stuff that makes you think a bit.  Anyone can write direct lyrics where the meaning is more than obvious, but conveying a lyrical message in a less than obvious way is something to be applauded, not scoffed at.  Plus, they can sometimes mean one thing to one person and something else to another.  That is the beauty of words.

I never said I want to be beaten over the head with lyrics, so I'll just ignore that comment  , but why on Earth should Portnoy be writing vague lyrics about the death of his own father? The notion that Cruithne suggested is beyond absolutely ridiculous in this particular instance, and just plain selfish music listening. Portnoy wanted to pay tribute to his father with a song about the times they had, and writing vague lyrics about loss wouldn't have served the purpose of the song.
To me, if lyrics mean one thing to one person, and a different thing to someone else, then that is meaning isn't actually there. You're writing lyrics that rely on the listener putting their own meaning onto it.
Lyrics don't need to be vague to have an emotional response for the listener. Movies don't need to be vague to have depth and emotional resonance, and neither do songs. I don't have a problem with vague lyrics, but I'm not going to give them credit for an interpretation they didn't actually write themselves.

I never said he should have written vague lyrics about his father's death; I was speaking in more general terms.  And I did not agree with Cruithne. 

But going back to the generalities I was speaking in, no, you have not to my knowledge said, "I want to be beaten over the head with lyrics," but the way you talk about them certainly indicates that.  Saying that something with multiple interpretations shouldn't be a credit to the writer is insane.  Believe it or not, plenty of writers are clever and intelligent enough to write and/or word things in a way that can come across in different ways to different people. 

Lastly, I also never said lyrics have to be vague to get an emotional response from the listener, nor do I only like vague lyrics.  Good lyrics are good lyrics, just like good music is good music.  And lyrics, like music, come in all different kind of shapes and forms. 

Edit: I agree with most of what Jaffa said right before me about this.

[Moonchild]

"Good lyrics are good lyrics..bad ones are bad"

IMO There you have it. It's the whole point of BC&SL. The music is good but the lyrics and vocal melodies ruin most songs.

I have problems with parts of each song

ANTR - Grunt part and probably some exaggeration on the later instrumental part which bores the hell outta me. I made an edit that lasts 10 minutes and I love it.

AROP - DT by numbers I have no problem with it but the instrumental drags..

Wither - Like it and the piano version is adorable

TSF - fuck me... the "Inventory.. serenity.. analysis" grunt stabs me 400000 times..apart from that it's a good end to the suite.

TBOT - Love it but yeah.. the lyrics ruin it. They are bad in a simplistic "i miss you dad" made by a fourth grader.. My biggest grudge it's that my girlfriend loves that song and it was supposed to be "our" song but when we read the lyrics... u-oh.. the musical part screams "romantic lyrics" a la I walk beside you.

TCOT - Worst offender of the lyrical non-sense. If they had released this song with these lyrics on a B-Side it would show the fun side of DT because they are a total joke. Especially where we are talking about the song that is the longest one and features a lot of musical prowess, pr0g and a "don't fuck with me I'm making classic DT status" song attitude. Still love it when I'm not thinking about the lyrics.

[orcus116]

But going back to the generalities I was speaking in, no, you have to my knowledge said, "I want to be beaten over the head with lyrics," but the way you talk about them certainly indicates that.  Saying that something with multiple interpretations shouldn't be a credit to the writer is insane.  Believe it or not, plenty of writers are clever and intelligent enough to write and/or word things in a way that can come across in different ways to different people. 

And many times it gives the writer a chance to play with words and vocabulary to make the lyrics flow in a way that might not be possible if you're giving someone the technical rundown of events. It's probably harder to write songs in a more mundane way, much in the same way Rudess mentions how difficult it is to write "simple" songs. In the end, though, it ultimately comes down to the writer's skill with the pen.

[darkshade]

Could it be that the Black Clouds represent the lyrics, and the Silver Linings being the music?

"don't fuck with me I'm making classic DT"

 

[emindead]

I remember being doubtful when I gave the "It's up there with the best of 'em" vote. It's definitely not a very good album. So I'll go with the "Yeeeah, noooo" expression of the boss from Office Space.

[Rattlehead]

I seem to like this album much more than the average DT fan, I was surprised to see the lack of love for the Shattered Fortress on this forum which I think is a really cool song.

I think the whole album is brilliant but it is unfortunately dragged down by Portnoy's vocals at times which can be quite cringe worthy.

[Kotowboy]

https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=Rv22tPg7AJc

7:05  " This is the last time you're gonna see me playing "..

Oh Irony.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I seem to like this album much more than the average DT fan, I was surprised to see the lack of love for the Shattered Fortress on this forum which I think is a really cool song.

I think the whole album is brilliant but it is unfortunately dragged down by Portnoy's vocals at times which can be quite cringe worthy.

SF is a cool song. I think people were down on it because it was recycled riffs from previous songs. If it were a stand alone piece consisting of new material then it would get a better reaction.

[Ben_Jamin]

The lyrics "legend has been traced...all the finest wines improve with age" means the count was trying to give him a taste if the rare vintage; dead soldier wine... Mmm

[darkshade]

I seem to like this album much more than the average DT fan, I was surprised to see the lack of love for the Shattered Fortress on this forum which I think is a really cool song.

I think the whole album is brilliant but it is unfortunately dragged down by Portnoy's vocals at times which can be quite cringe worthy.

SF is a cool song. I think people were down on it because it was recycled riffs from previous songs. If it were a stand alone piece consisting of new material then it would get a better reaction.

Or if the 12 Step Suite were written in one shot.