Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[Summers]

WHY WOULD THE JEDI USE AN ARMY THAT WAS BASED ON CLONING A GUY WHO THEY KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT IS WORKING FOR THEIR ENEMY?

You know I never thought about that, good point.  The clone army was a mystery and you'd think the Jedi and the Republic would have been highly suspicious of it, yet they are happy to just jump on straight away and claim it as the "grand army" of the Republic.  Just another example of the infantile plots that Lucas likes to write... 

[GuineaPig]

One thing I never understood was the size of the Clone Army was like 2 million IIRC.  To put that into perspective, the People's Liberation Army has a size of 2.25 million, and its just from one country.  Why would a force that small be significant in the least?  You couldn't take China, let alone a planet (or a number of systems) with that force.  Also, you'd think a megalopolis with a population of 50 trillion (or however many it has, some novelist probably jotted down a number nerds take as canon) you could sweep the slums of one district and get as many volunteers.  It's a minor beef, but to me it shows how fundamentally ignorant Lucas is of his own universe.  And I made that point without even touching upon the prequels' depiction of slavery.

[Adami]

One thing I never understood was the size of the Clone Army was like 2 million IIRC.  To put that into perspective, the People's Liberation Army has a size of 2.25 million, and its just from one country.  Why would a force that small be significant in the least?  You couldn't take China, let alone a planet (or a number of systems) with that force.  Also, you'd think a megalopolis with a population of 50 trillion (or however many it has, some novelist probably jotted down a number nerds take as canon) you could sweep the slums of one district and get as many volunteers.  It's a minor beef, but to me it shows how fundamentally ignorant Lucas is of his own universe.  And I made that point without even touching upon the prequels' depiction of slavery.

Where did you get the idea that the army was only 2 million?

Did they mention that?

[GuineaPig]

I swore they did.

[Adami]

I swore they did.

Maybe that was just one wave? Or something?

I don't know, but not even Lucas is dumb enough to think a 2 million man army is worth anything.

[GuineaPig]

I dunno.  What I do remember relatively clearly is that in ROTS they send 2 battalions to hold the Wookie planet.  A battalion varies in size depending on the structure of the army, but is typically in the range of 500-1,500.  So not very significant.

[Adami]

You have to remember that in Scifi, a planet usually has the population of a large city.

[Voyage 34]

WHY WOULD THE JEDI USE AN ARMY THAT WAS BASED ON CLONING A GUY WHO THEY KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT IS WORKING FOR THEIR ENEMY?

You know I never thought about that, good point.  The clone army was a mystery and you'd think the Jedi and the Republic would have been highly suspicious of it, yet they are happy to just jump on straight away and claim it as the "grand army" of the Republic.  Just another example of the infantile plots that Lucas likes to write... 

Lucas needs clones to make the Clone Wars, so thats what he's going to give us, no matter how goddamn stupid the route to getting us there is.

[The Dark Master]

Yea, I always got the impression that the clones were originally intended to be the bad guys of the Republic, then Lucas decided to come up with this convoluted plot about Dooku/Palapatine using the alias of some Jedi master to trick the Kamino into making a bunch of clones of Boba/Jango Fett into an army for the Republic who have some sort of "kill all Jedi" sleeper program implanted into their brains. I didn't mind the thing about the clones fighting for the Republic, and I didn't really mind them being clones of Fett, but what I did mind was the implication that all stormtroopers were clones, despite ample evidence to the contrary in the original trilogy, to say nothing of the expanded universe.

BTW, who here has seen the Red Letter Media review of the prequels?  So hilarious, and yet so dead on.  The part where he compared the story of Anakin to Citizen Kane was a laugh riot.   

[TheVoxyn]

Not all storm troopers are clones. Initially they were but then they also started recruiting people and making training centra and stuff.

[Adami]

Not all storm troopers are clones. Initially they were but then they also started recruiting people and making training centra and stuff.

I haven't watched the cartoons, but did that happen in there? Cause as far as the prequels go, pretty sure all of the troopers were clones.



And....correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Lucas replace the troopers voices in the originals with the Jango Fetts?

[ZBomber]

Not all storm troopers are clones. Initially they were but then they also started recruiting people and making training centra and stuff.

I haven't watched the cartoons, but did that happen in there? Cause as far as the prequels go, pretty sure all of the troopers were clones.



And....correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Lucas replace the troopers voices in the originals with the Jango Fetts?

Nope. He replaced Boba's voice I think, not the stormtroopers'.

[Adami]

Yea I knew about Bobas, which was fine since he has like 2 lines or something. I could have sworn he did some troopers as well, but I guess not.

[Voyage 34]

BTW, who here has seen the Red Letter Media review of the prequels?  So hilarious, and yet so dead on.  The part where he compared the story of Anakin to Citizen Kane was a laugh riot.  

*To your avatar* Whats wrong with your face!?!

EDIT: I didn't realize that you already put that underneath your avatar.

[MetalManiac666]

BTW, who here has seen the Red Letter Media review of the prequels?  So hilarious, and yet so dead on.  The part where he compared the story of Anakin to Citizen Kane was a laugh riot.   

Look through the last few pages and you'll see that those were a pretty big hit here.

[The Dark Master]

Not all storm troopers are clones. Initially they were but then they also started recruiting people and making training centra and stuff.

Well yea, I know that is how they explained it away in the EU since, in the UE there are stormtroopers who are actual characters who had actual childhoods, families, and other things a clone wouldn't have.  However, I did hear that at some point Lucas did at least consider replacing all the stormtrooper voices in the original trilogy with Jango's, although I guess he backed down from that. 

[blackngold29]

Not all storm troopers are clones. Initially they were but then they also started recruiting people and making training centra and stuff.

Well yea, I know that is how they explained it away in the EU since, in the UE there are stormtroopers who are actual characters who had actual childhoods, families, and other things a clone wouldn't have.  However, I did hear that at some point Lucas did at least consider replacing all the stormtrooper voices in the original trilogy with Jango's, although I guess he backed down from that. 

And even more so when the clones in some video games have different voices despite being clones.

[Voyage 34]

Not all storm troopers are clones. Initially they were but then they also started recruiting people and making training centra and stuff.

Well yea, I know that is how they explained it away in the EU since, in the UE there are stormtroopers who are actual characters who had actual childhoods, families, and other things a clone wouldn't have.  However, I did hear that at some point Lucas did at least consider replacing all the stormtrooper voices in the original trilogy with Jango's, although I guess he backed down from that. 

And even more so when the clones in some video games have different voices despite being clones.

Like in Republic Commando. I never understood that. I remember in the Battlefront II rise of the empire campaign the narrator says that eventually they started working clones from other templates into most of the Storm Trooper units. That still doesn't reconcile with the idea of Storm Troopers being normal guys.

[blackngold29]

Not all storm troopers are clones. Initially they were but then they also started recruiting people and making training centra and stuff.

Well yea, I know that is how they explained it away in the EU since, in the UE there are stormtroopers who are actual characters who had actual childhoods, families, and other things a clone wouldn't have.  However, I did hear that at some point Lucas did at least consider replacing all the stormtrooper voices in the original trilogy with Jango's, although I guess he backed down from that. 

And even more so when the clones in some video games have different voices despite being clones.

Like in Republic Commando. I never understood that. I remember in the Battlefront II rise of the empire campaign the narrator says that eventually they started working clones from other templates into most of the Storm Trooper units. That still doesn't reconcile with the idea of Storm Troopers being normal guys.

Yeah, it makes no sense, but it did make that game a great deal more enjoyable, so it's easy to see why they would do it. Talking to identical clones all day would probably drive anyone crazy.

[The Dark Master]

BTW, who here has seen the Red Letter Media review of the prequels?  So hilarious, and yet so dead on.  The part where he compared the story of Anakin to Citizen Kane was a laugh riot.  

*To your avatar* Whats wrong with your face!?!

EDIT: I didn't realize that you already put that underneath your avatar.

  I am never going to be able to watch the Phantom Menace ever again with out laughing thanks to that review.

[Voyage 34]

BTW, who here has seen the Red Letter Media review of the prequels?  So hilarious, and yet so dead on.  The part where he compared the story of Anakin to Citizen Kane was a laugh riot.  

*To your avatar* Whats wrong with your face!?!

EDIT: I didn't realize that you already put that underneath your avatar.

  I am never going to be able to watch the Phantom Menace ever again with out laughing thanks to that review.

I don't think I'll ever be able to watch TPM again period. Those reviews are great though, and so much more entertaining than the movies they are reviewing.

[Vivace]

^^ that's just it. When I am able to make my own definitive HD collectors set, I will actually include the Red Letter Media videos over the actual movies. I will also include Confused Matthew's videos on them since his reviews on them are pretty good as well.

I've heard there is actually a fan edit that combines all three movies into a definitive cut and removes a LOT of junk. I can see the possibility of improvement but I cannot see the possibility of it being a good movie as any review states, the problems are just too deep for edits. You need to start over and completely re-write it.

[snowdog]

Yea I knew about Bobas, which was fine since he has like 2 lines or something. I could have sworn he did some troopers as well, but I guess not.

That was something that bugged the crap out of me.  Yeah he only has a few lines.  But the delivery of those new lines are so god damn awful.  "What if he doesn't survive, he's worth a lot to me".  The tone of the original line made it sound like a threat to Vader.  The redone dialog sounds more like he is pleading for some money.  It's almost like the actor had no idea the context of what he was reading and did them in one take.

[Adami]

The original movies made Boba Fett as worthless as possible, the new voice didn't change any of that.

We're talking about a man who's accomplishment was........well..........nothing as far as I know.

[bosk1]

Is there a huge Boba Fett cult following?  He supposedly is ultra cool and popular, but I've never really actually known all that many people who really thought he was all that cool.  His coolness seems to stem largely from the fact that he's cool simply because Lucas says he is.  Adami, I agree with you that he's really not that important a character.  But the hype started early.  I remember way, WAY back before Empire was even released, that Kenner did this promotion where you cut out the proofs of purchase from a certain number of action figures and they would send you a free Boba Fett figure.  Of course, nobody even knew who Boba Fett was.  But the little blurb on the packaging was basically along the lines of, "This is the ultra cool must-have action figure for one of the best characters in the new Star Wars movei that is being made right now!  You gotta have this!"  And it seems like Lucas has continued to promote him for no good reason I can figure out.  That's always been a bit of a head scratcher for me.

[Voyage 34]

Boba Fett is really only interesting if you are into the expanded universe stuff. He really was just a background character in the movies.

I will also include Confused Matthew's videos on them since his reviews on them are pretty good as well.

I love Confused Matthew, and not just his prequel reviews. But I totally disagree with him on 2001.

[skydivingninja]

Honestly, I'm not really sure why Boba Fett became the "cool guy" of the OT, considering he only had like two lines like Adami said (though that could be a factor).  Here are some reasons I've figured out that explain why people like Boba Fett based only on the OT:
-He wears mysterious, cool armor.  Kind of like Vader, but green.
-He disintegrates folks
-Ruthless bounty hunter
-Weird-ass ship
-He has a freaking flamethrower on his wrist, along with a rope.
-Motherfucking jetpack
-He loves the ladies
-Makes Brian Gumble look like Malcolm X

Beyond what we're given in the OT (ignoring his silly death), all the love of Boba Fett seems to stem from the Expanded Universe.  In the prequels, its like Lucas just threw the whole "every clone is Boba Fett" thing into the movie as a huge piece of fanservice.

[Vivace]

Boba Fett is really only interesting if you are into the expanded universe stuff. He really was just a background character in the movies.

I will also include Confused Matthew's videos on them since his reviews on them are pretty good as well.

I love Confused Matthew, and not just his prequel reviews. But I totally disagree with him on 2001.

He has a tendency to be pretenious and seems unable to grasp "contemporary art". It doesn't surprise me he hates it. I find him interesting and also unbearable at the same time. His Matrix reviews are spot on. Hi review of Minority Report is interesting but overboard, and as you mentioned his review of 2001 is an airball in his resume.

[The Dark Master]

^^ that's just it. When I am able to make my own definitive HD collectors set, I will actually include the Red Letter Media videos over the actual movies. I will also include Confused Matthew's videos on them since his reviews on them are pretty good as well.

I've heard there is actually a fan edit that combines all three movies into a definitive cut and removes a LOT of junk. I can see the possibility of improvement but I cannot see the possibility of it being a good movie as any review states, the problems are just too deep for edits. You need to start over and completely re-write it.

Yea, it's a 4 hour cut called Star Wars: Rise of the Empire.  I haven't seen it yet but I will soon.  I know the problems with the prequels are very very deep into the foundations of the film, so it will be interesting to see if cutting out 3/7 of the trilogy would be enough to actually make the movies any good.  At the very least, I hope it will make them tolerable.  Bad dialogue and poor direction of actors is just part of Star Wars.  If you pick apart A New Hope or Return of the Jedi, you can find plenty of cringe-inducing moments like what RLM finds in the prequels.  The difference is how much of the films those moments take up over all.  As much as some things in Jedi get on my nerves (the Ewoks and much of the Jabba's Palace scene) they weren't huge tangents that took up half of a movie! (I'm looking at you, Podrace....).  Likewise, the Han/Leia romance isn't exactly award winning material, but because it is such a subdued and relatively minor subplot, combined with genuine chemistry between Fischer and Ford, it isn't really an issue and fits rather nicely into the overarching story.  Compare this to Anakin/Padme, which took up much of Attack of the Clones, and consisted of horrendous dialogue between two actors with no chemistry at all.  And don't get me started on the improbability of them actually getting married in such a short amount of time when all Anakin did in the time was act like a whiny, selfish ass (once again, RLM points this out beautifully.) Still, a 4 hour film that focuses entirely on Palapatine's rise and Anakin's fall would be a much better film.  Palapatine was pretty much the whole reason I liked Revenge of the Sith at all!

[Voyage 34]

Boba Fett is really only interesting if you are into the expanded universe stuff. He really was just a background character in the movies.

I will also include Confused Matthew's videos on them since his reviews on them are pretty good as well.

I love Confused Matthew, and not just his prequel reviews. But I totally disagree with him on 2001.

He has a tendency to be pretenious and seems unable to grasp "contemporary art". It doesn't surprise me he hates it. I find him interesting and also unbearable at the same time. His Matrix reviews are spot on. Hi review of Minority Report is interesting but overboard, and as you mentioned his review of 2001 is an airball in his resume.

His Matrix reviews were very good. I really like his review of Spiderman 3, which sank a great series. Also his Star Wars: The Clone Wars review is hilarious.

[zepp-head]

And proving how bad a completely digital movie looks.

Is that to say that TPM and AOTC are 80% filler?

AOTC is about as close to 100% filler as you can get.

It's sad when you think about it, the only thing that movie actually accomplished was starting the clone wars. Nothing else.

And it didn't even do that well. WHY WOULD THE JEDI USE AN ARMY THAT WAS BASED ON CLONING A GUY WHO THEY KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT IS WORKING FOR THEIR ENEMY?

Because it doesn't matter. 

[blackngold29]

And proving how bad a completely digital movie looks.

Is that to say that TPM and AOTC are 80% filler?

AOTC is about as close to 100% filler as you can get.

It's sad when you think about it, the only thing that movie actually accomplished was starting the clone wars. Nothing else.

And it didn't even do that well. WHY WOULD THE JEDI USE AN ARMY THAT WAS BASED ON CLONING A GUY WHO THEY KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT IS WORKING FOR THEIR ENEMY?

Because it doesn't matter. 

The jedi were independent of the army. Sifo-Dias (or however the hell you spell it) ordered the army of his own accord on behalf of the Republic without the knowledge of the republic or the jedi. I believe it was the Kaminoins' choice on who they used as the clone... Heh, I feel like a geek.

[Voyage 34]

And proving how bad a completely digital movie looks.

Is that to say that TPM and AOTC are 80% filler?

AOTC is about as close to 100% filler as you can get.

It's sad when you think about it, the only thing that movie actually accomplished was starting the clone wars. Nothing else.

And it didn't even do that well. WHY WOULD THE JEDI USE AN ARMY THAT WAS BASED ON CLONING A GUY WHO THEY KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT IS WORKING FOR THEIR ENEMY?

Because it doesn't matter. 

The jedi were independent of the army. Sifo-Dias (or however the hell you spell it) ordered the army of his own accord on behalf of the Republic without the knowledge of the republic or the jedi. I believe it was the Kaminoins' choice on who they used as the clone... Heh, I feel like a geek.

Jango says out right that he was hired by a man named Tyranus (Count Dooku, leader of the Separatists) to be the template for the clones.

[ClairvoyantCat]

I don't see why they wouldn't use the clone army.  They were completely objective and there was nothing untrustworthy about the Clones, unless the supreme chancellor himself was actually a Sith, and no one saw that one coming.

[blackngold29]

The jedi were independent of the army. Sifo-Dias (or however the hell you spell it) ordered the army of his own accord on behalf of the Republic without the knowledge of the republic or the jedi. I believe it was the Kaminoins' choice on who they used as the clone... Heh, I feel like a geek.

Jango says out right that he was hired by a man named Tyranus (Count Dooku, leader of the Separatists) to be the template for the clones.

They mention Sifo Dias by name in ATOC as well when Obi Wan first goes to Kamino.


Upon further review, Wookiepedia says: "To defend the Republic, [Sifo-Dyas] secretly commissioned a clone army from the cloners of the planet Kamino. Prior to this, Dooku had left the Jedi Order, and had fallen in league with Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was told by the Sith Master about Sifo-Dyas' actions, and Sidious also revealed that they could use the clone army for their own ends. As a final test of his allegiance to the dark side of the Force, Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and took control of the project for himself. It was Sidious' true intention to use Sifo-Dyas only as a dead-end cover for Palpatine's plot to use the clone army."