Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[gmillerdrake]

And.....this movie is just as brutal. I can't get over how bad the acting is.

The guy that played Anakin was so appallingly bad (though he was much improved, to the point of being just-about-adequate, in episode III). And some of the dialogue is really poor. But there is some fantastic stuff in the film as well, and overall I find it pretty good.

The acting just ruined it for me. I never once was convinced that Anakin and Padima were falling in love, and the way Lucas Directed Christiansen to portray the young Anakin with all the conflicting emotions was brutal. Utterly brutal. A good director could have made that movie incredible.....starting with a re-write of the dialogue making it sound like how people actually speak to one another.....continuing on to competently directing them. Lucas is a horrible director..period and someone along the line should have spoken up and told him his scripts were weak.

It's the writing and directing that's poor on episode 2. 

It had to be an 'Emperor has new clothes' scenario. No one had the balls to tell Lucas his writing and directing sucked.

He is a decent actor if you look at some of the other (well-directed) stuff he's done, and over the years it's come out that he was actually very frustrated by the process and how shitty of an actor George Lucas was. That's why his performance comes out so stilted, apparently.

That's the thing. There were very good actors and actresses cast in those movies, all of which have had great performances in other films. It just magnifies how inept Lucas was at directing.

[ariich]

I have to push back on that, actually. He is a decent actor if you look at some of the other (well-directed) stuff he's done, and over the years it's come out that he was actually very frustrated by the process and how shitty of an actor George Lucas was. That's why his performance comes out so stilted, apparently.

For sure, I was just saying that his acting was appallingly bad in Star Wars.

A good director could have made that movie incredible.....

I think part of the problem was that he wanted all this additional detail and intricacy (the politics etc.) that was not well suited to a feature-length movie and he simply didn't have the quality to pull it off.

[Kotowboy]

Even Ewen Mcgregor was terrible in those films. And he's a great actor.

[Polarbear]

https://youtu.be/CehVgQ43pn0

Kylo Ren reacts to the Rogue One Trailer.

[gmillerdrake]

The kiddos loved the 'last' one...Revenge of the Sith. It was neat to see them put all the pieces together like Chancellor Palpatine actually being the Emperor....seeing Anakin become Darth Vadar. Although my oldest was and still is mad at Obi Wan for leaving Anakin there to die....he thought he should have helped him up and taken him to get better. 

My youngest kept saying "It doesn't make any sense....they were good....but now they're bad" when referring to the switch that the clones did when they were taking out the Jedi. A little explanation cleared it up for him.

Although the weekend and viewing these movies was just confirmation for me that these movies weren't very well done....especially when compared to TFA....it was a good time to share with the boys. But there's a good chance I'll never watch any of those movies again....just not worth it IMO.

[Orbert]

My experience with the prequels was similar.  When The Phantom Menace, came out, I took Orbert, Jr. to see it in the theater.  He was still in grade school.  He was blown away.  Yeah, it looked cool, and there were light sabers and Force stuff, and that's about all it takes to impress a seven-year-old.  I was okay with it, because it was the first new Star Wars in years, and they had a lot of groundwork to lay, so I was okay with the pace and all the other things that are so glaringly obvious now.

We also saw Episode II and Episode III in the theaters (I mention this because we go to the cinema for very, very few movies) and the experience was similar.  Kids were fine with it, it was good bonding time, etc.  I figured that at some point, they had to start getting better, right?  They couldn't get any worse.  And II was  bad, but I don't know how it compares with I because I'm not a rank-a-holic.  I like it or I don't.  III was certainly the best.

My kids aren't nearly as picky about films as I am, so they enjoy them.  It's all just silly fun space stuff anyway.  I'm not actually that picky either, but I recognize that the prequels are pretty weak compared to the original trilogy.  But there are some good story elements, just not well executed.

[gmillerdrake]

Honestly, they were more bummed that General Grevious was killed off so quickly and easily. Being that we are watching the Clone Wars as well....he is such a big character and so tough to catch/kill.....they were baffled that his role in the movie was so limited and that he was killed off so quickly. And, they REALLY wanted to see his face..

[bosk1]

The Phantom Menace . . .  Yeah, it looked cool, and there were light sabers and Force stuff, and that's about all it takes to impress a seven-year-old.  I was okay with it, because it was the first new Star Wars in years, and they had a lot of groundwork to lay, so I was okay with the pace and all the other things that are so glaringly obvious now.

That pretty much sums it up for me as well.  As the first in the prequel trilogy, I thought it was fine at the time.  It had some issues, but many of them were easy to overlook at the time considering it was the first in a long time and, as you said, it had a lot of groundwork to lay and was surely setting up the series to go somewhere great.  Right? 

We also saw Episode II and Episode III in the theaters (I mention this because we go to the cinema for very, very few movies) and the experience was similar.  . . .   I figured that at some point, they had to start getting better, right?  They couldn't get any worse.  And II was  bad . . .

Yeah.  Unfortunately, this.  And it hurt the entire effort, dragged ep. I down, and highlighted all the deficiencies in ep. I that had previously been easy to overlook.

III was certainly the best.

Yes.  But it was again something that had great potential and just kept on missing the mark.  There was so much great stuff to work with, but it kept falling flat.

I'm not actually that picky either, but I recognize that the prequels are pretty weak compared to the original trilogy.  But there are some good story elements, just not well executed.

Exactly right.

[gmillerdrake]

Where I felt like III fell flat was that Anakin kept whining about the Jedi Council not granting him Master status.....how he didn't trust the Jedi....blah blah blah but they really didn't give any examples of why he didn't trust them other than they didn't make him a Master fast enough and Palpatine was whispering to him the whole time he should be mad. And that was another thing, it was really lazy IMO the whole 'influence' that Palpatine had over Anakin because all it took was a couple whispers from him and Anakin is like "cool...I'm good....I'll betray everyone"

Such a good story hiding in that movie but Lucas buried it in horrible acting (under his direction) and he was too confident in the audience that we'd fill in the massive gaps he left in the characters...especially Anakin.....for why they were thinking and feeling what they were.

[bosk1]

Where I felt like III fell flat was that Anakin kept whining about the Jedi Council not granting him Master status.....how he didn't trust the Jedi....blah blah blah but they really didn't give any examples of why he didn't trust them other than they didn't make him a Master fast enough and Palpatine was whispering to him the whole time he should be mad. And that was another thing, it was really lazy IMO the whole 'influence' that Palpatine had over Anakin because all it took was a couple whispers from him and Anakin is like "cool...I'm good....I'll betray everyone"

Such a good story hiding in that movie but Lucas buried it in horrible acting (under his direction) and he was too confident in the audience that we'd fill in the massive gaps he left in the characters...especially Anakin.....for why they were thinking and feeling what they were.

Exactly.  That has long been my major criticism of ep. III.  Anakin's turning just didn't feel...genuine.  There wasn't enough motivation there.  It is the single biggest event in the Prequel Trilogy, and it fell completely flat the way Lucas treated it.  Had it been done better, the entire film (and to an extent, the entire Prequel Trilogy) would have been so much better.

[kaos2900]

Where I felt like III fell flat was that Anakin kept whining about the Jedi Council not granting him Master status.....how he didn't trust the Jedi....blah blah blah but they really didn't give any examples of why he didn't trust them other than they didn't make him a Master fast enough and Palpatine was whispering to him the whole time he should be mad. And that was another thing, it was really lazy IMO the whole 'influence' that Palpatine had over Anakin because all it took was a couple whispers from him and Anakin is like "cool...I'm good....I'll betray everyone"

Such a good story hiding in that movie but Lucas buried it in horrible acting (under his direction) and he was too confident in the audience that we'd fill in the massive gaps he left in the characters...especially Anakin.....for why they were thinking and feeling what they were.

I feel this was rectified in Clone Wars. You can see in that show that it was a long process for Palpatine to gain Anakins trust and admiration. When my kids are old enough to watch the movies, we're going to take a long break in between II and III to watch Clone Wars. It just makes everything in III make more sense.

[gmillerdrake]

I feel this was rectified in Clone Wars. You can see in that show that it was a long process for Palpatine to gain Anakins trust and admiration. When my kids are old enough to watch the movies, we're going to take a long break in between II and III to watch Clone Wars. It just makes everything in III make more sense.

Hmmmm..interesting. Being that we are watching those now I'll keep notice of this. BUT...It doesn't excuse the lazy story writing of these prequels, especially since The Clone Wars were an 'after thought' so to speak and probably more of an effort to make up for the lazy story writing of the prequels. We shouldn't have had to rely on an afterthought cartoon series to explain the decisions and feelings of a major Studio's characters in a blockbuster movie...especially those of the magnitude like STAR WARS.

I'm happy to hear that Clone Wars addresses and lends itself to the grand story but it just magnifies and draws attention to how poor a job Lucas did in the prequels telling the story.

[bosk1]

I agree with you that we shouldn't have to rely on TCW to fix that.  But the point is, it does address it and helps the overall story arc, so from a storytelling point of view, it is worthwhile to watch it as part of the story's canon. 

[gmillerdrake]

I agree with you that we shouldn't have to rely on TCW to fix that.  But the point is, it does address it and helps the overall story arc, so from a storytelling point of view, it is worthwhile to watch it as part of the story's canon.

Oh...I've been digging it big time and I'm only 11 episodes in to season 1. That was another thing about Episode III that really hit home for the boys was all the Jedi that they are growing to like in TCW getting killed off like it was no big deal.

[kaos2900]

Oh just wait. Season was good but it's easily the weakest of the series. I'm really bummed I finished. But at least the new season of Rebels will be starting in a month or so!

[ariich]

Where I felt like III fell flat was that Anakin kept whining about the Jedi Council not granting him Master status.....how he didn't trust the Jedi....blah blah blah but they really didn't give any examples of why he didn't trust them other than they didn't make him a Master fast enough and Palpatine was whispering to him the whole time he should be mad. And that was another thing, it was really lazy IMO the whole 'influence' that Palpatine had over Anakin because all it took was a couple whispers from him and Anakin is like "cool...I'm good....I'll betray everyone"

Such a good story hiding in that movie but Lucas buried it in horrible acting (under his direction) and he was too confident in the audience that we'd fill in the massive gaps he left in the characters...especially Anakin.....for why they were thinking and feeling what they were.

Exactly.  That has long been my major criticism of ep. III.  Anakin's turning just didn't feel...genuine.  There wasn't enough motivation there.  It is the single biggest event in the Prequel Trilogy, and it fell completely flat the way Lucas treated it.  Had it been done better, the entire film (and to an extent, the entire Prequel Trilogy) would have been so much better.

I'm not sure I agree, or rather it's something that I think is an issue with the Star Wars universe in general. The Dark Side plays on people's angst and frustration. It doesn't matter much that Anakin wasn't being particularly reasonable with his irritation at first - it was enough for Palpatine to latch onto - and once you turn, no act is too evil. To me, it makes perfect sense from what I understand of the force and the Dark Side and so on, but it's also where I think the series becomes a little harder to relate to - because you can't put yourself in their shoes. It's not simply a case of being well-meaning but allowing temptation to push you to do horrid things in pursuit of your good intentions. Once the Dark Side has grabbed you, that's it.

Obviously it wasn't an issue in the original trilogy, because we didn't see anyone turn to the Dark Side. It's definitely a risk with the new trilogy, but they do appear so far to be doing something a little different and quite interesting with Kylo Ren, so we shall see.

[adace]

Rogue One looks awesome from the new trailer. So glad to see the return of Darth Vader

[Kotowboy]

I was never huge on Vader but a prequel is the best way to bring him back.

The worst thing they could do is try to resurrect him for future movies.

[Logain Ablar]

I'm looking forward to Vader's return too, but I really hope they give him a substantial role, as the rumours are suggesting. Also, please please please let him have some half decent dialog, instead of just "NOOOOOO", or some crap like "Where is Padme??" That was just cringeworthy in EPIII.

I think the prequels biggest crime for me, was that they kinda ruined the character of Darth Vader. He went from (in my mind anyway) being one of the galaxy's ultimate badasses to a whiny, petulant teenager, complaining about getting sand everywhere..

[Kotowboy]

Mostly in his vadergina.

[Big Hath]

I'm looking forward to Vader's return too, but I really hope they give him a substantial role, as the rumours are suggesting. Also, please please please let him have some half decent dialog, instead of just "NOOOOOO", or some crap like "Where is Padme??" That was just cringeworthy in EPIII.

I think the prequels biggest crime for me, was that they kinda ruined the character of Darth Vader. He went from (in my mind anyway) being one of the galaxy's ultimate badasses to a whiny, petulant teenager, complaining about getting sand everywhere..

in fairness, it's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere

[bosk1]

True dat.

[pogoowner]

I think the prequels biggest crime for me, was that they kinda ruined the character of Darth Vader. He went from (in my mind anyway) being one of the galaxy's ultimate badasses to a whiny, petulant teenager, complaining about getting sand everywhere..

I wholeheartedly agree. And while Vader's plans always seem to be thwarted in the original trilogy, it was never really because of his own foolish incompetence. The prequels make him so mentally weak that it does almost ruin his whole character for me (which is why I largely just pretend that the prequels don't exist, aside from keeping the story loosely in mind).

[ariich]

Wasn't that sort of the whole point though? His mental weakness was what allowed him to succumb to the dark side.

[Kotowboy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVzc20Bm8Xo


The best thing about this video is that it's actual info from Wookie-pedia.

[bosk1]

Wasn't that sort of the whole point though? His mental weakness was what allowed him to succumb to the dark side.

Yes, that was the whole point.  But it was a stupid point that changed everyone's perception of the character that had been built up in the OT.  That wasn't how the Vader we knew should have been turned.

[Orbert]

It could have worked.  Palpatine saw the weakness in Anakin but also the potential to exploit that weakness by manipulating him, creating for himself a strong ally.  Maybe do something "dark" which will somehow gain him some actual power to help Padme.  Not "slaughter a roomfull of children, and that will somehow make you strong enough to save her" which doesn't make a damned bit of sense either on paper or on screen.  But something small, seemingly a good trade-off.  Do this one thing, which involves the dark side of the force, and you'll end up with the power to alter human physiology, perhaps enough to help Padme fight off whatever it is that's ailing her.  That kind of thing.  Like in stories where people dabble in black magic not because they're evil, but because they believe themselves strong enough to face down whatever consequences might come of it, and the potential payoff is worth the risk.

Palpatine presents the dark side to Anakin as "merely the other side" of the Force.  Not worse, not better, neither stronger nor weaker, just the other side of the coin, and the those truly powerful with the Force embrace both sides.  Makes sense.  So Anakin does this one little thing, and before you know it, it's "got" him.  He's on the path to the dark side.  Foolish mortal.

There's a thousand ways it could have been done better and more believably than what we got, which was both bad and unbelievable.

[Logain Ablar]

Wasn't that sort of the whole point though? His mental weakness was what allowed him to succumb to the dark side.

Yes, that was the whole point.  But it was a stupid point that changed everyone's perception of the character that had been built up in the OT.  That wasn't how the Vader we knew should have been turned.

Maybe that's what grates on me. Pre 1999, I never imagined "good" Anakin to be mentally weak. I thought he might have a similar personality on the good side - ie a strong leader, feared and respected, probably a bit gruff, not suffering fools gladly. I imagined his turning to the dark side being as a result of the desire for power, initially for noble reasons, which gradually corrupted him over time..

It was maybe too much of a leap from "itchy sand" Anakin to "You have failed me for the last time" Vader.   

It could have worked.  Palpatine saw the weakness in Anakin but also the potential to exploit that weakness by manipulating him, creating for himself a strong ally.  Maybe do something "dark" which will somehow gain him some actual power to help Padme.  Not "slaughter a roomfull of children, and that will somehow make you strong enough to save her" which doesn't make a damned bit of sense either on paper or on screen.  But something small, seemingly a good trade-off.  Do this one thing, which involves the dark side of the force, and you'll end up with the power to alter human physiology, perhaps enough to help Padme fight off whatever it is that's ailing her.  That kind of thing.  Like in stories where people dabble in black magic not because they're evil, but because they believe themselves strong enough to face down whatever consequences might come of it, and the potential payoff is worth the risk.

Palpatine presents the dark side to Anakin as "merely the other side" of the Force.  Not worse, not better, neither stronger nor weaker, just the other side of the coin, and the those truly powerful with the Force embrace both sides.  Makes sense.  So Anakin does this one little thing, and before you know it, it's "got" him.  He's on the path to the dark side.  Foolish mortal.

There's a thousand ways it could have been done better and more believably than what we got, which was both bad and unbelievable.

Totally agree with that - the whole transition was awkwardly handled and could have been a lot better.

[Orbert]

Wasn't that sort of the whole point though? His mental weakness was what allowed him to succumb to the dark side.

Yes, that was the whole point.  But it was a stupid point that changed everyone's perception of the character that had been built up in the OT.  That wasn't how the Vader we knew should have been turned.

Maybe that's what grates on me. Pre 1999, I never imagined "good" Anakin to be mentally weak. I thought he might have a similar personality on the good side - ie a strong leader, feared and respected, probably a bit gruff, not suffering fools gladly. I imagined his turning to the dark side being as a result of the desire for power, initially for noble reasons, which gradually corrupted him over time..

It was maybe too much of a leap from "itchy sand" Anakin to "You have failed me for the last time" Vader.   

Exactly.  I wanted to see an actual rise to power -- military, political, something -- then the corrupting of that power, culminating in Darth Vader betraying and murdering Anakin Skywalker from Obi-Wan's point of view.  Maybe it's little more than taking on the mindset that compassion=weakness and good guys finish last, maybe there's more to it, some actual event we can point to and say "Ah, that was it.  That was where he truly turned and became Darth Vader."

Instead, it seems that the only authority Vader had was because everyone knew he was The Emperor's right-hand man (no pun intended).  Vader walks the corridors of the Death Star like he owns the place, but I'm always thrown when Tarkin says "Vader, release him" and Vader complies.  What?  Darth Vader answers to some "regular military" guy?

[Kotowboy]

The whole trilogy is rife with telling the viewer things that we never see any evidence of.

[Logain Ablar]

The whole trilogy is rife with telling the viewer things that we never see any evidence of.

That's why we're getting Rogue One... Masterful planning from GL - leaving massive gaps for future movies!

Exactly.  I wanted to see an actual rise to power -- military, political, something -- then the corrupting of that power, culminating in Darth Vader betraying and murdering Anakin Skywalker from Obi-Wan's point of view.  Maybe it's little more than taking on the mindset that compassion=weakness and good guys finish last, maybe there's more to it, some actual event we can point to and say "Ah, that was it.  That was where he truly turned and became Darth Vader."

Yip, and I think the desire to protect his family and those closest to him could still have been used as a strong motivation, which would have led to his turning.

The closest comparison I can think of at the minute is Boromir from LOTR, who was generally noble, but his desire for power to protect Gondor was ultimately his downfall. I think a similar kind of idea would have worked well for Anakin.

[Kotowboy]

The whole trilogy is rife with telling the viewer things that we never see any evidence of.

That's why we're getting Rogue One... Masterful planning from GL - leaving massive gaps for future movies!

It's like poetry !




Th trouble is - it's Vogon poetry.

[Orbert]

Third worst in the known universe.

[Orbert]

I had to have this one explained to me, even though I'm old enough to get it, and it's still not that funny, but it is Star Wars related, so here it is.

[Logain Ablar]

New Rogue One trailer due today..

https://twitter.com/GMA/status/786522858524508160

Wooo