Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[orcus116]

Yeah I take the Luke and Vader final battle scene as Luke completely losing control and from that point on he's acting on instinct or the force. For that brief moment, that's not Luke, but pure rage in a physical form. Exactly was Jedi's are trained not to do. Also perhaps Vader was horrified at what he saw. For a moment he saw his son become him and maybe for that split moment Vader realized what he had become. This is why I'm so opposed to the "No". In my mind before Vader even gets up off the ground, he's already fighting his demons.

Agreed, and the fact that he originally did it all without saying a damn word makes it immensely more powerful.

[ThroughHerEyesDude6]

^Prime example that less is more.
Lucas should know when to leave well enough alone something perfect.

[zepp-head]

I'm positive it was fully intended. Now whether that scene originated from Lucas or someone else that was working on the movie, I have no idea.

Definitely how it was intended.  Whether it was someone besides Lucas is doubtful, since he directed the Emperor/Vader/Luke scenes, and Lawrence Kasdan's influence was mainly in rearranging dialogue.

[Implode]

Ahem....erm....um...are ya'll familiar with a little film with Henry Fonda and Catherine Hepburn called On Golden Pond?

Welllllll why don't you take listen, especially at the 2:00 mark....with a few changes, Across The Stars is almost not an original piece
https://youtu.be/Ttd1yDbjUpY

The chord progression is similar and so is part of the main motive, but I still don't think it's close enough to accuse plagiarism. Not by a long shot.

[Super Dude]

Of course not, it's a Jimmy Hart version (I think that's what it's called).

[gmillerdrake]

Watched ESB again last night for the first time in quite some time....forgot what a cool movie that is! I noticed something though and I don't know if it's related or not. Yoda has Luke 'inverted' quite a bit when training, one handed upside down balance type deals..you know what I'm talking about. Do you think that was intentional on Yodas part to get him 'comfortable' feeling the force and what not to enable him to 'contact' Leah as he anxiously dangled upside down on that antena after being dumped at the end? Certainly Yoda would have forseen that and perhaps he was merely 'training' Luke for just that instance....Thoughts?

[Implode]

I doubt it, but awesome new headcanon.

[Orbert]

Interesting.  Palpatine mentions what he has "foreseen" a few times, and Yoda says something like "difficult to see, the future is", implying that he can do it, but it's tough.  Those two were about as strong with The Force as anyone in the universe, but we never really get any solid examples of using The Force to see the future.

[Rane]

Is Palpatine THAT strong with the Force or does he just get a power boost because he's using the dark side of the force? I always got the impression that, yes, while powerful with the Force, Palpatine had almost equal power in his ability to manipulate people into doing his bidding. I mean, we don't know that he was necessarily more powerful than Vader, but her knew how to manipulate him to work with him.

[gmillerdrake]

Is Palpatine THAT strong with the Force or does he just get a power boost because he's using the dark side of the force? I always got the impression that, yes, while powerful with the Force, Palpatine had almost equal power in his ability to manipulate people into doing his bidding. I mean, we don't know that he was necessarily more powerful than Vader, but her knew how to manipulate him to work with him.

  Just lying to Vadar about Padama(? Spellling) and telling him that HE killed her is a great example of his manipulating power....leaving Vadar mentally destroyed, full of (self)anger and hate....and willing to listen to whatever Palpatine (the Emperor) says as to not 'mess up' again....like he can't trust his self due to him believing he killed Padama

[snapple]

I got around to watching "The People vs. George Lucas". It is a must see.

[Implode]

Where might I find that? I've heard nothing but good things about it.

[snapple]

Where might I find that? I've heard nothing but good things about it.

I borrowed it from a friend.

[gmillerdrake]

Being that my kiddos are on this MAJOR Star Wars kick I have been watching the 'original' trilogy a ton lately and endless Youtube clips of all the light saber battles from all 6 movies. Pretty fun actually.
  I apologize if this has been discussed here before..fairly 'new' to the thread....but Palpatine was 'disfigured' by his 'dark side lightning' jazz in the scene when Anakin turned Vadar. So I'm wondering why/how Luke escaped pretty much unscathed when he was being roasted by the Emperor after he defeated Vadar?
  Shouldn't he have at least been disfigured a bit....toasted....burnt....something? Was this just a case of 'poor planning' on the part of Lucas when disfiguring Palpatine to explain away the Emperors aged look? Any theories out there or thoughts?

[snapple]

Being that my kiddos are on this MAJOR Star Wars kick I have been watching the 'original' trilogy a ton lately and endless Youtube clips of all the light saber battles from all 6 movies. Pretty fun actually.
  I apologize if this has been discussed here before..fairly 'new' to the thread....but Palpatine was 'disfigured' by his 'dark side lightning' jazz in the scene when Anakin turned Vadar. So I'm wondering why/how Luke escaped pretty much unscathed when he was being roasted by the Emperor after he defeated Vadar?
  Shouldn't he have at least been disfigured a bit....toasted....burnt....something? Was this just a case of 'poor planning' on the part of Lucas when disfiguring Palpatine to explain away the Emperors aged look? Any theories out there or thoughts?

My assumption is that Windu's lightsaber magnified the lightning.

[Super Dude]

Or George Lucas needed a convenient plot device + bad writing = the scene in ROTS.

[snapple]

Or George Lucas needed a convenient plot device + bad writing = the scene in ROTS.

Sneaky edit!

I don't see that as bad writing. The knocks against Lucas over EVERYTHING get ridiculous. It's a fucking lightsaber, I never doubted it's strength before, why start now?

[Super Dude]

It just seems kinda ridiculous imo (btw I realize a lot of Lucas criticism is overwrought, but I think a lot of it is justified as well). And I mean, did he really have to explain the gruesomeness? He could've just explained it away as "he gets wrinkly over the years because of all the use of Sith magic." That's what I had always been expecting.

p.s. @ snapple: I'm back in Michigan. Sup.

[snapple]

It just seems kinda ridiculous imo (btw I realize a lot of Lucas criticism is overwrought, but I think a lot of it is justified as well). And I mean, did he really have to explain the gruesomeness? He could've just explained it away as "he gets wrinkly over the years because of all the use of Sith magic." That's what I had always been expecting.

Different strokes, I guess.

[Pols Voice]

It's possible that Palpatine's true form is the wrinkled ugly guy, and the lightning made him revert to that form.

[Super Dude]

It's possible that Palpatine's true form is the wrinkled ugly guy, and the lightning made him revert to that form.

Yeah, that's what I always thought it might be.

[Orbert]

It just seems kinda ridiculous imo (btw I realize a lot of Lucas criticism is overwrought, but I think a lot of it is justified as well). And I mean, did he really have to explain the gruesomeness? He could've just explained it away as "he gets wrinkly over the years because of all the use of Sith magic." That's what I had always been expecting.

Yeah, I always figured it took years of channeling the Dark Side to do that to him.  Instead, we saw the transformation in minutes, which was disappointing overall even if it was kinda cool to see.

[Vivace]

I actually thought it was a huge mistake on Lucas's part which goes unquestioned. I mean Anakin NEVER blinks twice to it. It's like he expected it or something. Also the minute Anakin converts is the minute his eyes go red which again I think is a huge mistake. If a person is gradually turning to evil and using the dark side would his eyes reflect the use of the dark side? Thus when he killed all the sand people, shouldn't his eyes have been red? Whenever he got angry, shouldn't his eyes go red? I know it's nitpicking but Lucas had a TON of material he could have worked with to which most of this material was pretty damn good and well thought out especially with how the Sith and Jedi work but instead he chucked most of it out, even the material he kinda built up with the OT as if he said, "Finally I get to fix the stupid errors in the OT".

The problem being with the dark side withering away the face is that it only seemed to do it Palpatine. Darth Maul doesn't have any wrinkles. Count Dooku didn't have any wrinkles. Darth Vader had some but not nearly as bad as Palpatine. Thus the question, was it the force lightning that did it, or did he hide his face? Well, he never went back to his young face again which makes me think it was the force lightning that made it permanent. But that is so then why didn't Anakin get affected at the end of AOTC? People would argue because he hasn't turned yet, but my argument is, he has already dabbled. I just don't see the dark side as some defined line that once you cross at that point you are a dark jedi. I see it more as a philosophy and frame of mind that feeds on the already corrupted and craving mind. Anakin already acted according to the dark side ways of emotion and passion. He was well on the path and already benefiting from it. I would argue he was already using dark side powers without even being aware he was using them especially in killing all the sand people. But that's my opinion and I am WAY over analyzing this, but that's what happens when you actually think about the material over just writing something and churning out what came out. Empire Strikes Back is such a breath of fresh air for me because it took the time to realize that there are real characters and a real world and how did they both work?

oh well.

[blackngold29]

It's possible that Palpatine's true form is the wrinkled ugly guy, and the lightning made him revert to that form.

He had the whole life and death thing down, I doubt plastic surgery would've been much of a challenge.



As for Vivace's point, I've always thought he turned quickly as well. That part is a lot longer in the book, it's a lot easier to write out what he's thinking for a few pages than show stuff like that on-screen.

[Vivace]

As for Vivace's point, I've always thought he turned quickly as well. That part is a lot longer in the book, it's a lot easier to write out what he's thinking for a few pages than show stuff like that on-screen.

but that is supposed to be the job of the actor and the director. Mark Hamill pulled it off nicely in Return of the Jedi. In Revenge of the Sith it was just plain sloppy.

Actually another question to ask, why would force lightning do this? Why did it happen? I always though it was the Dark Side in general AND I always though he was a lot older too. In a lot of ways I think the explanation that he hid his face and make everyone see him as a younger person is a bit more logical but then why didn't the Jedi's sense that he was a Sith. Darth Vader was able to sense Obi Wan in Star Wars. Palpatine knew that Luke was on the planet Endor. Vader, we think, knew that Luke was on the ship to Endor. It seems Jedi's and Sith can sense each other. But do they sense each other because they are using the force? Or do they sense each because they are force users? Either way, it doesn't explain why the Jedi never suspected Palpatine and if it did, it contradicts why force lightning turned Palpatine into a monster.

[Pols Voice]

The interesting thing is that Lucas had Palpatine becoming more pasty and decrepit-looking in AOTC, but then made him look younger again for ROTS. I don't even think Lucas knew what he was doing regarding Palpy's appearance.

[zepp-head]

It's possible that Palpatine's true form is the wrinkled ugly guy, and the lightning made him revert to that form.

The novelization says this is absolutely the case.

[jingle.boy]

It's possible that Palpatine's true form is the wrinkled ugly guy, and the lightning made him revert to that form.

The novelization says this is absolutely the case.

That's what I always thought.  The scenes where Darth Sidious is talking to his henchmen through holograms in TPM and AoTC slightly reveal (as I recall) his wrinkly face.  I always assumed that by using the force to conceal his dark lord identity to all the Jedi around him, it was also making his physical appearance more palatable.

[Vivace]

If that's the case then Palpatine also masked himself being a Sith since all Jedi can sense force users to a degree. As before Luke sensed Vadar on the ship. Obi Wan sensed Vadar on the Death Star, Vadar sensed Obi Wan, Palpatine sensed Luke on the planet and so on and so on. Of course this plot hole goes without the evil face but it suggests that a force user can mask himself from other force users. I guess we can accept this but here's my next question to Lucas. IF Palpatine masked himself and when Obi Wan was practically told if not flat out told that Palpatine is a Sith, then why didn't they just try and break through that block to sense if he's a force user? Instead Anakin is sent to spy on him (never asked to sense if he is a Sith) but to inquire if he is. Wouldn't have the question been answered by having a meeting and then having the whole Jedi Council blast their way through whatever mask he was using? If it doesn't work this way, then how are we to explain how Vadar, Luke and Obi Wan sensed each other? Again, I know I am nitpicking but it's really is a huge plot hole. Suddenly in these prequels the Jedi are made to be dumb, oppressive, and sloppy.

[snapple]

It's possible that Palpatine's true form is the wrinkled ugly guy, and the lightning made him revert to that form.

The novelization says this is absolutely the case.

That's what I always thought.  The scenes where Darth Sidious is talking to his henchmen through holograms in TPM and AoTC slightly reveal (as I recall) his wrinkly face.  I always assumed that by using the force to conceal his dark lord identity to all the Jedi around him, it was also making his physical appearance more palatable.

This would make sense as well. I still buy into the notion that the lightsaber amplified the lightning. Considering that when others were victims of the lightning, they were largely left unchanged.

[Pols Voice]

In the book Truce at Bakura, which takes place immediately after ROTJ, it explains that Luke suffered bone calcification from the Force lightning. That lightning can mess you up real good.

[hefdaddy42]

If that's the case then Palpatine also masked himself being a Sith since all Jedi can sense force users to a degree. As before Luke sensed Vadar on the ship. Obi Wan sensed Vadar on the Death Star, Vadar sensed Obi Wan, Palpatine sensed Luke on the planet and so on and so on. Of course this plot hole goes without the evil face but it suggests that a force user can mask himself from other force users. I guess we can accept this but here's my next question to Lucas. IF Palpatine masked himself and when Obi Wan was practically told if not flat out told that Palpatine is a Sith, then why didn't they just try and break through that block to sense if he's a force user? Instead Anakin is sent to spy on him (never asked to sense if he is a Sith) but to inquire if he is. Wouldn't have the question been answered by having a meeting and then having the whole Jedi Council blast their way through whatever mask he was using? If it doesn't work this way, then how are we to explain how Vadar, Luke and Obi Wan sensed each other? Again, I know I am nitpicking but it's really is a huge plot hole. Suddenly in these prequels the Jedi are made to be dumb, oppressive, and sloppy.

It may not be that force users can sense ANY other force users, but other force users whom they already know, and have therefore become attuned.

[orcus116]

In the book Truce at Bakura, which takes place immediately after ROTJ, it explains that Luke suffered bone calcification from the Force lightning. That lightning can mess you up real good.

Well according to one writer at least.

[Pols Voice]

I sort of expected a reply like that. I'm not saying everything in the books is definitive information, but I enjoy some of them and include some stuff in my personal canon, especially the older ones before Del Ray turned everything so dark and depressing.

[Vivace]

If that's the case then Palpatine also masked himself being a Sith since all Jedi can sense force users to a degree. As before Luke sensed Vadar on the ship. Obi Wan sensed Vadar on the Death Star, Vadar sensed Obi Wan, Palpatine sensed Luke on the planet and so on and so on. Of course this plot hole goes without the evil face but it suggests that a force user can mask himself from other force users. I guess we can accept this but here's my next question to Lucas. IF Palpatine masked himself and when Obi Wan was practically told if not flat out told that Palpatine is a Sith, then why didn't they just try and break through that block to sense if he's a force user? Instead Anakin is sent to spy on him (never asked to sense if he is a Sith) but to inquire if he is. Wouldn't have the question been answered by having a meeting and then having the whole Jedi Council blast their way through whatever mask he was using? If it doesn't work this way, then how are we to explain how Vadar, Luke and Obi Wan sensed each other? Again, I know I am nitpicking but it's really is a huge plot hole. Suddenly in these prequels the Jedi are made to be dumb, oppressive, and sloppy.

It may not be that force users can sense ANY other force users, but other force users whom they already know, and have therefore become attuned.

It is an explanation, definitely, however I don't think it works for just personal reasons. The main one being, from the OT Yoda speaks of the force as an essence that surrounds them and they are able to tap into that essence. If it is based on familiarity of the person then it acts more like a scent or a "field" per-se that is what they are sensing. So okay, perhaps it's hard for them to distinguish what is just a normal field and what it a person effecting that field. *record scratch* but wait a minute. Doesn't Vadar and Obi Wan during Star Wars talk about "disturbances" in the force. So let's imagine the force is like a lake. You are swimming in the lake surrounded by the water. There might be other people in the lake, but you don't know that UNTIL that is they make waves. Thus what I interpret as a "disturbance" in the force. Something out there is making waves. We can also tell that natural destruction in a grand scale can cause this as well with the destruction of a planet, even when the force itself is strong enough to reach Obi Wan like some radio signal. the point being, if sensing another force user is based on familiarity, then that kinda contradicts the idea that a disturbance in the force is also something they can detect. From the first three it seemed obvious that one Jedi simply senses another based on how much they are "disturbing" the force. I was imagined a Jedi could slip through the cracks by simply control themselves NOT to affect the field of the force. Now I don't think the movies ever supply any explanation to this so all in all its just a theory. But it still leaves open a rather large question, what is the difference for a Jedi between something that is "disturbing" the force and someone who is "using" the force. For me I see them as the same thing, but the movies never explain this, and after all is said and done, I doubt even Lucas knows how it works so would he try to explain it.