Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[Cool Chris]

Moff Jerjerrod has basically an entire subplot lumped together in one long deleted scene, where he is choked by Vader but lives, and is later given the order to turn the Death Star to destroy Endor if they lose the shield. 

That was in the novelization. I always thought that would have been great to be in the film as it added much more urgency to Lando's team in blowing up the Death Star.

[zepp-head]

Yeah, he actually orders the firing to commence as well.  I have to imagine the reason it wasn't included was that it was even more like the A New Hope Death Star run than it already was.

Jerjerrod actually had a really big part in the first few drafts of Jedi.  I liked the idea of him being at odds with Vader, since the Empire was kinda split between people who were loyal to the Emperor (Jerjerrod) and people who were more loyal to Vader (Piett).  But ultimately I think it's better in the later drafts so that there isn't someone else constantly talking down to Vader and him just eating it up.

[Laich21DT]

It's definitely more strenuous to get light side points.  I've played through the game a few times, and I still feel bad in real life about some of the things I did for dark side points.

That is the way of the Force, padawan.

[Laich21DT]

since the Empire was kinda split between people who were loyal to the Emperor (Jerjerrod) and people who were more loyal to Vader (Piett).

Ehh? Really?

[Phoenix87x]

Here's a dumb question, but what would the tactical advantage of blowing up Endor be? Moff Jerjerrod was informed of fighters entering the super structure before he gave the order to fire, so even if they did destroy it, moments later the fighters would still reach the core. And it wasn't like Yavin where the centralized rebel alliance would be wiped out completely if the planet was destroyed. On Endor there was a only a small strike team.

[Adami]

Here's a dumb question, but what would the tactical advantage of blowing up Endor be? Moff Jerjerrod was informed of fighters entering the super structure before he gave the order to fire, so even if they did destroy it, moments later the fighters would still reach the core. And it wasn't like Yavin where the centralized rebel alliance would be wiped out completely if the planet was destroyed. On Endor there was a only a small strike team.

Easy, it would have prevented the two or so Ewok movie spinoffs that came out later.

[MasterShakezula]

I agree that it wouldn't of been of much use to blow up Endor, but in the long run, they way things did go essentially guaranteed that its wildlife would be almost completely wiped out over a long period of time. 

Google Endor Extinction event or something like that, and there's an entire site dedicated to this theory.

[GuineaPig]

It's its own TVTrope:

No Endor Holocaust

[Super Dude]

I agree that it wouldn't of been of much use to blow up Endor, but in the long run, they way things did go essentially guaranteed that its wildlife would be almost completely wiped out over a long period of time. 

Google Endor Extinction event or something like that, and there's an entire site dedicated to this theory.

I just found it and skimmed it briefly.  It's amazing the things people will waste their life on.

[Cool Chris]

Here's a dumb question, but what would the tactical advantage of blowing up Endor be?

There isn't any. I thought of it as being the empire's farewell Fuck You to the alliance.

[GuineaPig]

Question: why didn't the rebels blow up the shield generator from the air?  Wouldn't that have been way easier?

[MasterShakezula]

I think the reason they didn't do it was because running into the energy shield with a ship would result in the ship going explosimo, and hence, it woulda been too much of a risk of machinery trying to destroy it from the air.
 
Odds are, you could probably go to Wookeepedia to read about that specific model of generator and find out exactly why it couldn't be taken out from the air.

I'd do the research for you, but I don't care too much about the EU.  Not much of it lives up to the OT. 

[Adami]

Question: why didn't the rebels blow up the shield generator from the air?  Wouldn't that have been way easier?

I assume because they'd have blown their cover by then. If they start sending in fighter ships to blow up the shields, then those show up on radar.


Of course the Emperor knew it all already, but they didn't know that.







Also, I had a strange thought. Why did the Emperor need Vader? Seriously, the guy single handedly killed Sam Jackson and also defeated Yoda. He (alone) screwed the entire Jedi council and politically took over the entire galaxy. What was Vader's purpose?

[MasterShakezula]

Well, if Palps died for some reason, Vader'd clearly be the second most effective leader of the empire (as far as Palp knew).

(Honestly, I found Vader to be much more competent than Palpy in the OT.  Though, it's not like the Emp had much screentime to do stuff, so yeah)

[Adami]

When the Palpatine ever come off as incompotent? The only thing he didn't see coming in all 6 movies was Vader turning on him. The entire story was controlled by one extent or another by Palpatine. The man seriously had the powers to kill just about anyone he wanted, also had was smart enough to do anything he wanted.

Vader didn't seem all that necessary.

[Fiery Winds]

I think it's because Vader did all the dirty work for him.  Sticking strictly to the films, I'm not sure anyone knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord.  In ANH, the folks on the Death Star tell Vader he's the last of his religion without mention of Palpatine.  No one but Luke and Vader see Palpatine use the Force in the OT, and those who saw him use it first hand in the PT died or in Yoda's case, ran off. 

[Adami]

So Darth Vader, the name most commonly associated with awesome in the sci-fi world has been reduced to a front man to make sure the main guy doesn't have to move around too much?

[MasterShakezula]

Okay, I definitely misrepresented my thoughts, there.  Incompetent was definitely not the right word.  (I goofed there) 

It's just that, in like, ESB and ROTJ, it really seemed like Palp was, not weak (I mean, he was still shooting lightning and all), but past his peak.  He was still very smart, but I mean, he seemed pretty much good and fine with his executive position.  While Palp was handling most of the upper affairs, pulling the strings, coming up with the big ideas, Vader would actually go around and execute the plans and generally take more of the active role in getting the Empire's agendas through.  Palps= brains of the operation, Vader= Muscles.

Vader was very intelligent and strong himself, but was more enforcing Palp's shit than anything else.  However, Palps wouldn't be doing what he was without having someone as powerful as Vader as his right-hand.  And, eventually, if he died off, Vader'd be the best person to take over the throne.

That's my guess. 

[Adami]

Palp was not weak ever. He just liked to appear that way in order to confuse the enemy.

Luke was supposed to be the only guy who could tip the balance in the favor of the Jedi, and Palp took him out immediately. If Vader hadn't turned, Palpatine would have killed Luke any time he wanted.

[MasterShakezula]

I guess the Emp's having Vader do most of the shit was part of his feigning weakness.

I mean, it'd be pretty clear to everyone how strong Palp actually was if he was doing both his and Vader's roles at once.

[Adami]

Still, a sad role for Vader.

[GuineaPig]

Isn't having two dudes who can fuck shit up better than having just one?

It's like asking why the Mongols needed Genghis Khan and Subotai.

[Adami]

Isn't having two dudes who can fuck shit up better than having just one?

It's like asking why the Mongols needed Genghis Khan and Subotai.

I guess............but he didn't do anything really that anyone else couldn't have done.

[zepp-head]

Palpatine had incredible foresight and power, but he needed an apprentice to carry on that way of life when he died.  He knew Maul and Dooku were only temporary solutions.  Vader was "the one".

He was well on his way to becoming twice as powerful as Palpatine, but the lava bath really changed things.  If you like "Dark Lord", then Vader figures out he can still be just as strong, but in a different way.  Unfortunately he is a walking lightning rod and serves under a guy super powerful with force lightning.  Therefore, he cannot take the Emperor alone.  Still, in the Emperor's eyes, Vader is competent, but damaged goods.  He sees in Luke what he once saw in Anakin, so both Vader and Palpatine originally had dark intentions for Luke. 

Short answer, Palps needed an apprentice. 

since the Empire was kinda split between people who were loyal to the Emperor (Jerjerrod) and people who were more loyal to Vader (Piett).

Ehh? Really?

Pretty much.  The early drafts of Jedi had the opening scene roles reversed, with Jerjerrod being the one dishing out shit to Vader, and the two were at odds with each other for the remainder of the script until Vader choked him to death after trying to stop him from seeing Luke (by order of the Emperor).  Piett remained loyal and perhaps sympathetic to Vader.  That script was more about Vader trying to save his son than the other way around. 

Also in the early drafts of Jedi: weird shit.  By that I mean the ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda playing a part in the duel with Vader, blocking lightning, and eventually coming back to life.  That draft left whether or not Vader was redeemed up to the audience as well, since he just tackles the Emperor into lava and they both die.  Some interesting things from that draft though was the inclusion of Coruscant (then called Had Abbadon), and Endor was the forest moon of that planet, meant to be a parallel I suppose.  Also, there were two Death Stars.  Contrary to some rumors, Lando survived the explosion in every known draft of the film.

Here's a dumb question, but what would the tactical advantage of blowing up Endor be? Moff Jerjerrod was informed of fighters entering the super structure before he gave the order to fire, so even if they did destroy it, moments later the fighters would still reach the core. And it wasn't like Yavin where the centralized rebel alliance would be wiped out completely if the planet was destroyed. On Endor there was a only a small strike team.

Perhaps he hoped to do it in time before the ships entered the superstructure, or that his pilots would finish them off.  Mainly it would've been to kill Leia, Han, and Chewie to cement Luke's turn to the dark side. 

[Implode]

I'm guessing that Palpatine knew that Vader was the chosen one, so he made sure he was on his side. I think?

[MasterShakezula]

I'm guessing that Palpatine knew that Vader was the chosen one, so he made sure he was on his side. I think?

Sounds fair enough.

He did see pre-Vader a lot during the PT, plus, being a Sith, he probably would have the means of finding out, even if he didn't know him personally.

[Adami]

I'm guessing that Palpatine knew that Vader was the chosen one, so he made sure he was on his side. I think?

Chosen for what? Aside from killing Palpatine, he didn't do much.

[MasterShakezula]

The prophecy seemed to involve "bringing balance to the force". 

His being around and working with Palps kinda had some connection to the number of functioning Jedi to be narrowed down to 2 (Not counting EU as a source). 

I'm pretty sure Palp would of had a much more difficult time taking over with way more than 2 Jedi to contend with.

Of course, I'm going by my memory, here; I don't watch the prequels too often.   

[Adami]

The only ones Anakin killed were the.............-sigh-...........younglings (Xenu I hate that word). Palpatines clone troopers killed everyone else. And he easily could have just had a ton of troopers murder all the kids.

[MasterShakezula]

Guess that pokes another hole in Vader being really essential to Palp.

I guess, um, to preserve his dignaty, pretend the prequels didn't happen? 

I dunno, really.  These sort of continuity issues and logical fallacies that spring up about the series have something to do with why I tend to just forget about 1-3 sometimes. 

[Fiery Winds]

This is just a guess, but I think Vader was the guy who went around killing the rest of the Jedi between the events of III and IV. 

[ZBomber]

I think it's because Vader did all the dirty work for him.  Sticking strictly to the films, I'm not sure anyone knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord.  In ANH, the folks on the Death Star tell Vader he's the last of his religion without mention of Palpatine.  No one but Luke and Vader see Palpatine use the Force in the OT, and those who saw him use it first hand in the PT died or in Yoda's case, ran off.

Weird. I never realized that before. I always assumed everyone just knew the emperor was a sith lord, but maybe few or none knew at all.

[ReaPsTA]

The only ones Anakin killed were the.............-sigh-...........younglings (Xenu I hate that word). Palpatines clone troopers killed everyone else. And he easily could have just had a ton of troopers murder all the kids.

Eh.  Even if you ignore the EU (which I do, because I know very little about it), it's impossible to believe that all the Jedi's were killed by Clone Troopers.  Someone had to run around killing them, and the best person for that job is Vader.  Being a Jedi slayer has to be a somewhat respected position.

[ACID_FOX]

At the end of the day, Vader did fufill the prophecy by killing Palpatine and effectively killing himself, as he did destroy the Sith, he just went the long way around it

[Adami]

The only ones Anakin killed were the.............-sigh-...........younglings (Xenu I hate that word). Palpatines clone troopers killed everyone else. And he easily could have just had a ton of troopers murder all the kids.

Eh.  Even if you ignore the EU (which I do, because I know very little about it), it's impossible to believe that all the Jedi's were killed by Clone Troopers.  Someone had to run around killing them, and the best person for that job is Vader.  Being a Jedi slayer has to be a somewhat respected position.

I do as well. However the movies show most Jedi being killed by the Troopers. It's not too far off to assume that they did most if not all of the work. If Vader killed any Jedi, it probably wasn't too many of them. And Palpatine easily could have done it himself.