Poll

First thoughts?

Instant classic
184 (27.1%)
Very strong
314 (46.3%)
Decent
98 (14.5%)
Meh
41 (6%)
Disappointing
41 (6%)

Total Members Voted: 647

Author Topic: What are your thoughts on DT12?  (Read 154709 times)

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Online TAC

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #700 on: November 25, 2013, 03:32:58 PM »
I'd probably change my vote from 'very strong' to 'decent' at this point. It hasn't aged that well for me over the last couple of months. It also seems like my favourites are the least favourites of the majority: The Looking Glass, Along for the Ride and Behind the Veil. I also just don't get The Bigger Picture - I don't understand why it has been rated so highly, to me it's a straightforward song that goes on too long.

I think I now prefer ADTOE, perhaps because it's more similar to earlier DT material (by this I mean I&W-SFAM period; SDOIT is just as good but very different stylistically), which in my opinion is miles better than DT12.

Hopefully the songs come across better in the live setting.
I definitely prefer ADTOE. It's not even close.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Implode

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #701 on: November 25, 2013, 07:16:56 PM »
I was actually hoping they would continue to move to a new direction like they started with ADTOE. My hope was that ADTOE played it a bit safe to not alienate the fan base, but that DT12 would show the "new DT" in full force. The way it is, DT12 I think spelled out the roadmap for the remaining albums of their career.

Well put. This is what I'm dreading. Hopefully you're wrong, but I don't see DT doing anything new any time soon.

Offline wolfking

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #702 on: November 25, 2013, 07:21:00 PM »
I was actually hoping they would continue to move to a new direction like they started with ADTOE. My hope was that ADTOE played it a bit safe to not alienate the fan base, but that DT12 would show the "new DT" in full force. The way it is, DT12 I think spelled out the roadmap for the remaining albums of their career.

Well put. This is what I'm dreading. Hopefully you're wrong, but I don't see DT doing anything new any time soon.

I actually think the album has quite a few new ideas for the band.
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Offline Implode

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #703 on: November 25, 2013, 07:23:28 PM »
What are those? The biggest one I can think of is the orchestra section in IT.

Offline Zook

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #704 on: November 25, 2013, 08:03:13 PM »
What can they do that would be new? Dubstep? Gangsta Rap? Country? Guest vocals by Justin Bieber?

Offline wolfking

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #705 on: November 25, 2013, 08:15:34 PM »
What are those? The biggest one I can think of is the orchestra section in IT.

I have always just found the album really fresh.  FAS is something new, TLG has a certain style the band rarely utilise and there are multiple parts of IT that seem new.  Maybe I mean fresh instead of new.  But as Zook said, what can they do that's new without turning off or alienating their fanbase?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #706 on: November 25, 2013, 08:16:50 PM »
Jazz. Fusion. Not all out, but as an influence. The only time fusion ever appeared in a DT works was when JP ripped off Alan Holdsworth's "In the dead of night" solo. And I looove that Trial of Tears section.
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Offline Implode

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #707 on: November 25, 2013, 09:24:39 PM »
What can they do that would be new? Dubstep? Gangsta Rap? Country? Guest vocals by Justin Bieber?

I don't mean expanding genres. I just think that many song on the album sound pretty similar. After skimming through the album again, The Looking Glass is actually really fresh sounding. It's not my favorite song, but it doesn't sound like cookie cutter DT song either. I just expect to see more throw-away songs like Behind the Veil, Surrender to Reason, and half of The Bigger Picture. Those three songs kind of blend together, and the fact that they are all consecutive  in the album creates this lull where I kind of just tune out.

Offline Lucidity

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #708 on: November 25, 2013, 09:27:21 PM »
Jazz. Fusion. Not all out, but as an influence. The only time fusion ever appeared in a DT works was when JP ripped off Alan Holdsworth's "In the dead of night" solo. And I looove that Trial of Tears section.

Please please please... I know this will never happen, but when DT start really jamming and sounding like a fusion group, that's when I feel their musicality and style is best accentuated and put to its best use. I hope we see more stuff like this, like we saw in FII and LTE.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #709 on: November 26, 2013, 03:21:31 AM »
I think DT is doing new stuff all the time. I mean, they don't wander out into other genres of music (they don't need to), but they're always trying new types of riffs, Jordan's always experimenting with new sounds. The thing is, these changes happen gradually as time goes on, but it is an evolution that still maintains the "Progressive Metal" genre that DT is. But if you listen to the kind of music they've been making for the past 4 albums, take SC, and there are songs on it that are far different from anything on their previous albums, like TDEN and Constant Motion.
Even ADTOE, which people praised as DT proving that they're're still DT and that the music will still remain just as good as it always was. But the type of riffs that JP displays on it, that was never his style in the early 2000s, and especially not in the 90s. That wasn't even the style or sound he used on SC or BCSL. And I think that style is only evolving further as time goes on. It's hard for me to pinpoint what's different about DT12 right now, but I'm sure that when their next album comes out, it'll have something significantly different from ADTOE, and we'll be able to tell, "Oh, see, DT12 has some of that, and now it's evolved even further."
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Offline wolfking

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #710 on: November 26, 2013, 03:35:13 AM »
What can they do that would be new? Dubstep? Gangsta Rap? Country? Guest vocals by Justin Bieber?

I don't mean expanding genres. I just think that many song on the album sound pretty similar. After skimming through the album again, The Looking Glass is actually really fresh sounding. It's not my favorite song, but it doesn't sound like cookie cutter DT song either. I just expect to see more throw-away songs like Behind the Veil, Surrender to Reason, and half of The Bigger Picture. Those three songs kind of blend together, and the fact that they are all consecutive  in the album creates this lull where I kind of just tune out.

I don't think any of those three sound similar at all.
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Offline nikatapi

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #711 on: November 26, 2013, 03:44:10 AM »
I feel like DT has lost some of their rock sound in the recent albums (after Octavarium), and JP mostly plays metal style riffs. I miss some of the more rock oriented stuff like on FII, SDOIT and I&W.

Also, i feel that JP dominates the sonic soundscape with his guitar, and especially on the choruses he mostly plays some power chord stuff, which wasn't the case on the pre-Octavarium albums, where he tried different things to keep the sound interesting.

Maybe it's just me, and i don't mean that i don't enjoy the recent albums because i do, but i feel that they restrict themselves in a very narrow sound, and i feel that JR has much to offer with ambience and atmosphere, as he did on LMR.

To put it simply, i think they know what kind of sound sells good for them, which is mostly metal with a little bit of JR crazyness, but in the end it is becoming a little stale for me unfortunately.

Offline DoctorAction

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #712 on: November 26, 2013, 05:38:26 AM »
Jazz. Fusion. Not all out, but as an influence. The only time fusion ever appeared in a DT works was when JP ripped off Alan Holdsworth's "In the dead of night" solo. And I looove that Trial of Tears section.

Yes.

And strip down the sound. Less polish/sterility. More string squeak, drum clatter and room ambience, please.  :)
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Offline Sycsa

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #713 on: November 26, 2013, 05:42:31 AM »
Jazz. Fusion. Not all out, but as an influence. The only time fusion ever appeared in a DT works was when JP ripped off Alan Holdsworth's "In the dead of night" solo. And I looove that Trial of Tears section.

Yes.

And strip down the sound. Less polish/sterility. More string squeak, drum clatter and room ambience, please.  :)
DT12 had more string squeak than all the previous albums combined. :)


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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #714 on: November 26, 2013, 06:40:41 AM »
Sure. It's massive on the string squeak.  ;)

More string squeal isn't exactly what I'm after. But a more raw, spontaneous, live in the studio soundscape.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #715 on: November 26, 2013, 08:17:04 AM »
What are those? The biggest one I can think of is the orchestra section in IT.

I have always just found the album really fresh.  FAS is something new, TLG has a certain style the band rarely utilise and there are multiple parts of IT that seem new.  Maybe I mean fresh instead of new.  But as Zook said, what can they do that's new without turning off or alienating their fanbase?

I'd like more songs like Lines In The Sand. Not new but Why not an epic ballad instead of the usual epic metal song ? With some nice jazzy chords in there or some nice spanish guitar solos like in Solitary Shell :)

Offline emtee

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #716 on: November 26, 2013, 09:06:33 AM »
Sometimes I connect with it more than others. Depends on mood.

I will have to say that the sonic quailty of the album is not up to par for a band of DT's stature. Just my opinion. As time has passed
I've grown to dislike the drum sounds even more than the beginning and the whole mix is just too in your face loud for me. I have to
admit that just like ADToE my listening experience is negatively impacted by the sonics.

Offline wolfking

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #717 on: November 26, 2013, 05:43:05 PM »
Just listened to this album again, and it still kicks fucking ass.
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Offline Implode

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #718 on: November 26, 2013, 08:43:34 PM »
What can they do that would be new? Dubstep? Gangsta Rap? Country? Guest vocals by Justin Bieber?

I don't mean expanding genres. I just think that many song on the album sound pretty similar. After skimming through the album again, The Looking Glass is actually really fresh sounding. It's not my favorite song, but it doesn't sound like cookie cutter DT song either. I just expect to see more throw-away songs like Behind the Veil, Surrender to Reason, and half of The Bigger Picture. Those three songs kind of blend together, and the fact that they are all consecutive  in the album creates this lull where I kind of just tune out.

I don't think any of those three sound similar at all.

I guess that's just a difference in opinion. *shrugs*

Offline Outcrier

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #719 on: November 26, 2013, 09:27:52 PM »
What can they do that would be new? Dubstep? Gangsta Rap? Country? Guest vocals by Justin Bieber?

I don't mean expanding genres. I just think that many song on the album sound pretty similar. After skimming through the album again, The Looking Glass is actually really fresh sounding. It's not my favorite song, but it doesn't sound like cookie cutter DT song either. I just expect to see more throw-away songs like Behind the Veil, Surrender to Reason, and half of The Bigger Picture. Those three songs kind of blend together, and the fact that they are all consecutive  in the album creates this lull where I kind of just tune out.

I don't think any of those three sound similar at all.

I guess that's just a difference in opinion. *shrugs*

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Offline Outcrier

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #720 on: November 26, 2013, 09:33:00 PM »
What can they do that would be new? Dubstep? Gangsta Rap? Country? Guest vocals by Justin Bieber?
Next album, one krautrock song, one blackgaze, abstract hip hop, 2 tone and to wrap it up, an 20 min progressive bluegrass epic  :biggrin:
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Offline Lucien

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #721 on: November 26, 2013, 09:45:34 PM »
I'm waiting for my drone doom metal epic a la Teeth of Lions Rule the Divine
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #722 on: November 27, 2013, 07:11:54 AM »
I'm waiting for my drone doom metal epic a la Teeth of Lions Rule the Divine

I don't think James LaBrie could hit the properly low notes for Doom Metal.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #723 on: November 27, 2013, 07:31:46 AM »
I'm waiting for my drone doom metal epic a la Teeth of Lions Rule the Divine

I don't think James LaBrie could hit the properly low notes for Doom Metal.
Actually, Doom Metal usually has wailers, or vocalists in a higher range.

Offline Lucien

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #724 on: November 27, 2013, 08:42:27 AM »
Teeth of Lions Rule the Divine is instrumental as far as I know.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #725 on: November 27, 2013, 09:32:23 AM »
I'm waiting for my drone doom metal epic a la Teeth of Lions Rule the Divine

I don't think James LaBrie could hit the properly low notes for Doom Metal.
Actually, Doom Metal usually has wailers, or vocalists in a higher range.

Really? I'm from the Type O Negative camp, so I don't really listen to too much Doom Metal outside of that.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #726 on: November 27, 2013, 09:39:51 AM »
I'm waiting for my drone doom metal epic a la Teeth of Lions Rule the Divine

I don't think James LaBrie could hit the properly low notes for Doom Metal.
Actually, Doom Metal usually has wailers, or vocalists in a higher range.

Really? I'm from the Type O Negative camp, so I don't really listen to too much Doom Metal outside of that.
I'd recommend you some bands, but a lot of them combo high vocals with some screaming, or more of the latter in a lot of cases  :P

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #727 on: November 27, 2013, 09:44:03 AM »
I'd recommend you some bands, but a lot of them combo high vocals with some screaming, or more of the latter in a lot of cases  :P

If by screaming, you mean Static-X style screaming, then yeah, not my thing.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #728 on: November 27, 2013, 09:57:55 AM »
Heh, more so black metal screaming  :lol

Offline emblempride

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #729 on: November 27, 2013, 10:00:06 AM »
DT has been my favorite band for 4 years now and that will probably never change. At a time when I was only listening to thrash and classic rock (and was needlessly elitist about it), DT came around, kicked my ass, and then tore it out and threw it at me. Listening to all of those albums, digging through the bootlegs, I'm not sure I'd be the same person without them. In fact, I think I'd be a lot worse, I don't know why, but a world without DT seems so depressing to me now :lol. They could release Brokencyde-esque bullshit for the rest of their career and nothing would change for me.

When MP left, while sad, unlike most others it seemed, I was also incredibly optimistic. No friggin' way would DT let their first album after his departure be anything short of amazing. And it totally was. BC&SL was the first band I saw released as a fan, and while it was my least favorite save for WDADU, it was still full of so many highs that being that low still meant "fucking awesome" in my book. So when ADTOE came out, I was pumped. It's easily one of my favorites, and I'd say their best since Six Degrees. It was also their first album since ToT, for me, where I didn't find myself skipping any of the tracks except for BMU, BMD, and that's just because I'm not a Nu Metal fan. The main/intro riff is still pretty badass and for some reason I really like the outro.

So, with all that said, I found DT12 to be a tad disappointing. FAS is awesome as hell and will totally set the mood as an intro. In fact, I'd say FAS is one of my favorites off the album, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I always liked The Enemy Inside, not one of their best, but a pretty good song imo. Getting to The Looking Glass is when my interest started to fade. I think DT12 was the first album that didn't keep my interest the entire way through, except for SDOIT, but the latter is only because of how hard it is to digest a double album as glorious as it is in the first sitting. But anyways - I've always felt like DT was fantastic because it always seemed melody was most important. I'm of the opinion that what is seen as "fluff" and "wankery" are actually ace and necessary because, melodically, it always, again at least to me, felt like it was necessary to take the routes they were going because it flowed so well melodically and structurally. Hell, I can hardly show DT to any of my friends because they're always so adamant in asserting that they've heard most of DT's melodies elsewhere because of how good they are. They combine technicality with melody in a way no other band does. I can't imagine a song like TMOLS or Outcry being any different, even slightly. But, for the first time on DT12, the melodies don't feel as strong. The arrangement of The Looking Glass is neat as hell, but between the "What Would Rush Do" shenanigans, okay vocal lines, and slightly off-putting ending, I just can't find myself appreciating it in the same way others have.

Enigma Machine is pretty awesome, but is also their least interesting instrumental. The amount of highs, and the quality of those highs (and this can be said about the album in general, for me) just don't match their previous efforts. It does have its kickass moments, though. My problems with the songs following are more or less the same as what I have with TLG. Melody seems to take the backseat, none of the vocal lines (except for the chorus in Surrender to Reason) are catchy, and, well, JP guitar arrangements dominate everything. Now, I've always felt like JP's guitar playing has always been consistently fantastic, and, all things considered, he does damn good on DT12 too. But it really does seem to be his album this time around. JR was probably the showiest on ADTOE, and it was a nice change of pace. Everyone shined on it I think, and while JM is audible and JR does do some great stuff on DT12, again, it just doesn't feel as strong. JP's guitar playing on the album is what I generally find myself listening to in the songs following Enigma Machine, as opposed to having an evenly spread interest as to what everyone is doing. It's strange, because following the album's making, it appeared like the guys were putting 120% into the album, and while I'm not saying they didn't, I don't feel the results are an accurate representation of the effort. I simply have no urge to revisit TLG, BTV, STR, and TBP. Another issue, I guess, is the constant switching from heavy to soft and clean. PoS did this a lot with great results. Hell, DT does it a hell of a lot on IaW, Awake, and FII. It works better on those albums - when it goes from heavy to clean in Scarred, it's an emotional section. In Take the Time, it's infectiously funky. But the half-ballady approach just doesn't work too well for me this time around.

Now, with all of THAT said, Along for the Ride is awesome, and surprisingly underrated. One of the few songs on the album that really feels like a true DT song to me, and one of my favorite ballads of the JR era. I guess you could blame some of my disappointment on the fact that, aside from IT, my two favorite songs were the first shown. But yeah, great song.

And then of course, IT. Now, again, the amount of highs and the quality of those highs don't match the other epics in their discography, but damn. I think everything I can say has already been said. Plus - it's the last song on the album and it absolutely goes against all that I found fault with in the other songs - has consistently great and catchy vox (I wish modern DT utilized JLB this way all the time, he gets so much unnecessary shit considering his abilities), everybody shines, the melodies are awesome, etc. I'd say it ends on a higher note than ADTOE does with BTS, at least.

It may seem like I've talked a lot of shit, but if you think about it, I love a majority of the album - 5 out of 9. While it's easily my least favorite album aside from WDADU, it's not a bad album. It's a lot like Octavarium, but severely lacking in the things that still managed to make Octavarium a fantastic album despite a throwaway song here and there. I'm still optimistic for DT's future, it's not like they'll ever put out shit, and they've got the most consistent and greatest discography in the world as far as I've seen. Even if all they make from here on out is objectively shit, they've still got 10 albums back-to-back all a 4 out of 5 or higher to me. One "okay" album isn't going to suddenly throw me off like it seems to have done to others elsewhere on the internet.
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Offline The Stray Seed

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #730 on: November 28, 2013, 04:09:32 AM »
Well... first of all thank you for taking the time to write so much! Your post made me think again of how varied is DT fanbase =)

Since this thread kicked off I've been one of the most convinced fans of this album. Because actually, to me DT12 is a true masterpiece, the album I was waiting for ten years, but I won't say again why, cause I'd be a little redundant.

On the other hand, Octavarium - that you seem to like a lot - is one of the few DT albums I hardly ever listen to (with the obvious exception of the wonderful title track), so I think it's just a matter of fans' taste and expectations.

My theory is the following: DT12 is different from the former albums. The last few albums (even ADTOE) rely on technical showmanship and musical prowess and are packed full with pretty long songs, while this one is built on catchy, well outlined melodies and is much more focused on songwriting. So if you were expecting/if you are fan of the first compositive style, you will less likely get into this album.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #731 on: November 28, 2013, 05:57:35 AM »
Since this thread kicked off I've been one of the most convinced fans of this album. Because actually, to me DT12 is a true masterpiece, the album I was waiting for ten years, but I won't say again why, cause I'd be a little redundant.

This, sort of...
You know what I just realized? What makes DT12 so special to me? Here's the thing...
I really love Systematic Chaos, and I think it's one of their best albums, so as far as I'm concerned, it's only been 2 albums since one of their best... BUT! When I became a Dream Theater fan, Systematic Chaos was already out, and obviously so was everything before it. So as great as I think it is, as great as I think SFAM is, or I&W, or any of their classic albums, they were already a part of DT history by the time I jumped on the wagon.
The first album that came out after I became a fan was BCSL, and even though I love it, and there are parts of it I really enjoy, I can't honestly say I'd consider it a classic DT album. Considering their other albums, BCSL was a bit of a disappointment in my eyes.
And even though ADTOE was much better and much more consistent, there were still things about it that prevented it from being a classic DT album in my eyes. I mean, the album was great all throughout, but there weren't many moments where I felt it was amazing.

So as much as I was looking forward to DT12, I had seriously considered the possibility that maybe there are certain albums that I love more in restospect because they're what established the DT sound and that I'd have a hard time accepting anything new DT puts out as a truly classic DT album. In other words, their classic albums are what established me as a fan, and they became my favorite band, but after the last 2 albums, I was finding it difficult to truly look forward to their future releases. Yes, I wanted to hear more, but at the same time, I surrendered toreason the possibility that nothing they will ever put out will achieve the greatness that their classic albums (even the ones released in the early 2000s) did.
And for me, DT12 rectified that preconception. I can honestly say that for me, listening to DT12 coming out when it did felt just as exciting as listening to Images and Words which had been out for a long time when I first listened to it, or Octavarium, or ToT, or any of their classic albums. DT12 made me look forward to their future more than I ever have.
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Offline Viking of the Sagas

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #732 on: November 28, 2013, 08:00:15 AM »
Off topic @StraySeed

What are those girls playing in your signature?  :rollin

Offline The Stray Seed

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Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #733 on: November 28, 2013, 08:10:27 AM »
DT12 made me look forward to their future more than I ever have.

This is definitely spot-on. Really. My thought after the first spins of the album was: God I want more of this! I want DT13 right now!

Off topic @StraySeed

What are those girls playing in your signature?  :rollin

They are the girls from K-ON! anime. It's a funny story about five highschool girls forming a band.

Offline Viking of the Sagas

  • Posts: 293
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #734 on: November 28, 2013, 08:13:56 AM »
If it's real and good-sounding music I'm in.