The Metallica Thread v. Reloaded

[TheCountOfNYC]

I think anyone that calls an album like "TBA" a "Sellout" is really just playing that game where a band is good as long as it's "yours", if that makes sense (like the 2,000 people that hate REM because they got into the band with Murmur and now millions of people like them).   

That's a reasonable observation. As is often the case with you and me, though, I like to think my problem with it is a more nuanced interpretation. While I can't speak about REM (never liked them), where I have a problem is when people jump aboard the ship for an album that I think is a huge departure for the band (and honestly pretty crappy). If everybody jumped on the bandwagon for Justice (and plenty did) I'd actually be pretty happy about it. How would we all feel if DT became a huge success on the strength of You Not Me?

What strength of You Not Me?

All joking aside, The Black Album is great and it enabled them to appeal to a wider audience. I would have never heard Metallica if it wasn't for TBA. It was the first Metallica album my dad bought and it's what made him a fan which lead to me being a fan. My two favorite albums by them are Master and Justice but I would have never gotten to hear either if it wasn't for the commercial appeal of TBA. It's not like the band started making pop music. They decided to simplify the song structures and slow it down because when a band does that, it enables them to add more layers to the songs without it being a mess. In the end, the change of style allowed their music to grow to a level it never could have otherwise.

[WebRaider]

I'm definitely not a fan who gets all upset about a band "selling out" or becoming more popular or remaining MY BAND. I have actually grown to like TBA a good bit and that tour was pretty awesome.  I wasn't a big fan of TBA when it came out. I loathed Enter Sandman (and it only got worse by how they've never stopped over playing it). I'd MUCH rather have "repurposed plots from war movies" lyrics than that -DEPTH-.....

I don't hold it against the band personally because I don't think any of us know with any certainty why they decided to change stylistically from probably the best metal band to the biggest rock band in the world. If a band just wants to create a different style for themselves that's their prerogative but I think many viewed it as them doing it for the money. It's their right as a band to create the music they want so I don't begrudge them for it.

What I can say is I MUCH prefer the albums prior to TBA much more regardless of production value and for me that says a bit about the change they made.

[TAC]

I agree with all of that!

[Stadler]

Right on Bart, I completely agree. I never had a problem with them getting popular. My issue is the change in style. Others may call it growth. That's fine. But if a band continues to stop making music I like, I have a right to stop following.

I can follow the line of "growth" from TBA to the first Load, but after that, I just cannot get on board.

I'm also not sure how Rush going from Hemispheres to Grace Under Pressure is "growth" either. Maybe Rush feels they did grow.

But in both cases, each band took what I liked about them and turned their backs on it.

Popularity has no effect on this discussion for me, unless the band started writing for it. And with TBA, frankly the jury is still out on that one.

I don't think I am contradicting myself when I say I agree with most of this, except for the "what constitutes growth" part.   It's not irrelevant that I consider P/G to be my least favorite Rush album by a long shot, even behind the debut, Caress, and Roll The Bones.  It's hard to get my arms around the fact that the band that put out Hemispheres (one of my top five albums of any band ever) also put out the thin, sterile, light-weight P/G.  But I can absolutely - in hindsight - see how perhaps that was a necessary record.  "Let's see what the boundaries are".  They haven't gotten anywhere near that since, I might add.

[Stadler]

... but I think many viewed it as them doing it for the money.

That's something I don't get.   Hetfield is, to me, sort of the epitome of that kind of integrity, same with Newsted, so to me that theory (which I've heard before and I'm not attributing to you) doesn't make a lot of sense to me except in that hindsight way people have of trying to explain things they don't like in a way that's consistent with their world view. 

They spent SO much on that album, remixed it, what, twice? And with the grunge thing about to explode (Pearl Jam Ten was released two weeks after, and Nevermind was released what, a month later?) there were no guarantees on that making any money. That was a big risk for that band at that time.

[TAC]

I don't think you are contradicting yourself at all Stadler. Bands grow (your term) and evolve (my term).  It happens.


And I'll say it again that TBA has aged very well for me. I feel dramatically different now, than I did 25 years ago when it was released.

[Architeuthis]

I just can't listen to Metallica anymore. I am a fan of their early stuff, Ride The Lightening, And Jusice for All,  MOP etc...    Death Magnetic is a good recent effort, but there are so many other bands I would rather be listening to. I like Iron Maiden sooo much better than Metallica nowadays, they are writing way better material on a consistent basis. Dream Theater is also writing and performing at such a high level that I forget about Metallica. Not to mention Symphony X is killing it lately!
 I hope Metallica has something good in store to renew my interest in them. I can appreciate what they have done but I just lost interest a long time ago.. 

[Kotowboy]

But they cut their hair!! 

I know you're joking but that is the lamest reason for disliking a band.

[Prog Snob]

I started listening to Metallica around the time of Master of Puppets. Justice is my favorite by far with Frayed Ends being my favorite Metallica song. Personally, I think they've become progressively worse since the Black Album. Anyone else here feel that way? I'm not here to stir up shit. I'm sure it's an opinion many Metallica fans share.

I hope you know I'm not busting your balls here, but isn't it more correct to say "Personally, I think they've moved progressively farther from what I want to hear"?    To TAC's point, I was there as they evolved, and being a Maiden and Sabbath and Kiss fan, I can remember thinking, "Yeah, RTL and MOP are okay, but I wish they weren't so one-dimensional" and then hearing ...AJFA (my college roommate bought it on vinyl day of release) and thinking "okay, they still sound thin and tinny as crap, but they are evolving!" and then finally getting the TBA album and thinking "YES! THIS! This is a band that is maturing and growing into a real sound and feel!"   It was warm, it was thick, the lyrics weren't just repurposed plots from war movies, but had some DEPTH to them.

I think anyone that calls an album like "TBA" a "Sellout" is really just playing that game where a band is good as long as it's "yours", if that makes sense (like the 2,000 people that hate REM because they got into the band with Murmur and now millions of people like them).   

To me, it's all about perception. I listened to RTL and MOP and loved the sound. Not everything has to be "warm" and "thick" for it to be good.

It's definitely not because they started to make music that appealed to different people. Whether or not they actually sold out is irrelevant to me. I just feel that I liked Metallica back when they had that "one-dimensional" sound because that is who they were. I personally think Load and Reload are terrible albums, with very few exceptions.

[El Barto]

But they cut their hair!! 

I know you're joking but that is the lamest reason for disliking a band.

By itself, of course. At the same time you drastically change the style of your music, pose for album covers smoking cigars and remark "Yes, We Sell Out --- Every Seat In The House," then it's one component of a much bigger picture.

[Prog Snob]

But they cut their hair!! 

I know you're joking but that is the lamest reason for disliking a band.

By itself, of course. At the same time you drastically change the style of your music, pose for album covers smoking cigars and remark "Yes, We Sell Out --- Every Seat In The House," then it's one component of a much bigger picture.

I definitely see it as a conscious effort to make more money. With the taste of success from "One", I feel like they wanted more of it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but not everyone is going to accept it.

[Tomislav95]

I just recently realised how good is The Black Album. I believe AJFA will stay my #1 but TBA could pass MoP for me.

[Enigmachine]

How are MoP and RtL one-dimensional?

[TheCountOfNYC]

How are MoP and RtL one-dimensional?

They're not. There is quite a bit of complexity and variety to those albums. I would say that the only Metallica album that is one dimensional is St. Anger. There is a certain level of depth to even their earlier music that sets them apart from other bands in their genre. Metallica's music along with Megadeth's always felt more mature than the other thrash bands from the 80's.

[Kotowboy]

How are MoP and RtL one-dimensional?

Those vinyls are quite flat...

[Onno]

That still makes them at least two-dimensional 

[Kotowboy]

[Prog Snob]

I guess basic mathematics escapes you?   

[Dream Team]

But they cut their hair!! 

I know you're joking but that is the lamest reason for disliking a band.

By itself, of course. At the same time you drastically change the style of your music, pose for album covers smoking cigars and remark "Yes, We Sell Out --- Every Seat In The House," then it's one component of a much bigger picture.

I agree. They even started trying to disassociate themselves from the "metal" label (except for Jason who was pretty disgusted by the whole thing). The concerts starting dropping in energy and quality - compare the Seattle 89 show to the SF 92 show from Live S*@t.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The one thing I will say about Load and Reload is that, while both have songs that were clearly designed to be hits, they're actually very weird albums. In fact, I'd argue that Load might be the strangest thing Metallica ever did. It's 80 minutes of songs ranging from blues to country to metal to... Just bizarre stuff. It's got a ton of bass and it's real slow. Play Master of Puppets and Load to someone who's never heard Metallica before and I think they might just find the former to be more accessible overall.

[Kotowboy]

I guess basic mathematics escapes you?   

I guess basic humour escapes you ?

[SebastianPratesi]

I guess basic mathematics escapes you?   

I guess basic humour escapes you ?

Don't worry, Kotowboy; the needle goes through the music in only one direction (albeit a spiral-ish one) and sense, so technically you were right with the one-dimensional aspect.

That said, I agree that Right The Lightning and Master Of Puppets are not musically one-dimensional: they had the heavy, fast dimension, but also the acoustic, melancholic spots ("Fade To Black" and "Master Of Puppets" show both aspects). Besides "Phantom Lord" (which I remember had a short, slow, sort-of-acoustic spot) I consider Kill 'Em All one-dimensional. I also consider the Ramones debut as one-dimensional, and I don't like the songs on it, so it's an awful boring album to me.

[Kotowboy]

It still blows my mind how a pin going over some plastic grooves makes music come out.

[SebastianPratesi]

Yep, it's amazing to me too. I have a few music books which talk about the improvements in technology and the music industry, and they explain about that stuff. Nontheless, it's some sort of magic to me.

[kaos2900]

So Lars says the new album will be done this spring. Honestly, I'm going to be shocked if I like the new album.

[Kotowboy]

I'll be surprised if it's a classic but I at least think it will be decent like Death Magnetic.

[matthewmatt]

Me, I mostly dislike the Black Album... but not because I'd think they sold out or whatever. It just bores me. I'm pretty excited about RtL-AJfA and then again Load and especially ReLoad (I still think it's criminally underrated), but I have problems sitting through TBA. Maybe it's the fact all the heavy hitters are in the first half, but after Wolf/God/Misery/Struggle I'm usually quite glad it's over. If I recall correctly, since I haven't heard it for quite some time, ReLoad has only one stinker in my book (Slither).

[mikeyd23]

Me, I mostly dislike the Black Album... but not because I'd think they sold out or whatever. It just bores me. I'm pretty excited about RtL-AJfA and then again Load and especially ReLoad (I still think it's criminally underrated), but I have problems sitting through TBA. Maybe it's the fact all the heavy hitters are in the first half, but after Wolf/God/Misery/Struggle I'm usually quite glad it's over. If I recall correctly, since I haven't heard it for quite some time, ReLoad has only one stinker in my book (Slither).

Honestly, over time I've come to enjoy the back half of TBA a lot more. Maybe even more than the front half.

[Kotowboy]

I loved Reload from Day One...

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I loved Reload from Day One...

Load kicks Reload's ass.

sry not sry

[Adami]

I expect mediocre, but not awful songwriting, like Death Magnetic.

However, I really hope they do a better job producing it. I honestly can't even listen to Death Magnetic, it's just so damn loud and clippy.

[El Barto]

I loved Reload from Day One...

Load kicks Reload's ass.

sry not sry

Aside from the last (and coincidentally best) songs on each I can't tell a Load song from a Reload song. To me it's just a double album that I condense to a single.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Yeah, both are part of the same mass of ideas, but if we look both Load & Reload as song collections I like more the ones contained in Load than the ones from the other one.
I could take away a few weird songs out from Load and put in my faves from Reload, but that's about it. I can't think of a scenario in which I make a best of compilation from both and have an even 50% from both albums in it.

[El Barto]

A quick perusal suggests 7-5 Reload for my list, +/-1 from each.

[TAC]

I loved Reload from Day One...

Load kicks Reload's ass.

sry not sry

Aside from the last (and coincidentally best) songs on each I can't tell a Load song from a Reload song. To me it's just a double album that I condense to a single.

I condense them to an EP!
5 from Load and 1 from RL.