Dream Theater: The Astonishing (now with moment of betrayal!)

[shadow1psc]

Maybe generalizing as something went wrong is the wrong way to put it, but you really don't hear the immense difference in snare between ADToE and DT12?

There is certainly a difference but I've never understood the hate it gets.

The word I always use to describe it is 'squishy'. To me it feels out of place and electronic (like from a literal electronic drum module). I know it isn't, but that's what it comes across as to me.

[CDrice]

I'm not a production guy so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I think I remember an interview with Mike where  mentionned that they had a hard time setting up the mic for recording his drum for A Dramatic Turn of Events. I'm guessing it's because there was a lot of sound leakage where it shouldn't.

If that's the case, maybe this drum sound and production is the way they found to make reduce this problem.

I don't know the interview source, it just got me thinking that if they "had a hard time setting up the mics" for ADTOE maybe the engineer wasn't able to capture the drums exactly how he wanted to and changes were made that later effected the drum sound. Once again, for the record, I really am not that critical of MM's drum sounds. But like you said "when everything is captured well" comes into play here. All I'm saying is that his kit set-up might have negatively effected how things were captured. In fact MM's comment in that interview (once again, I'm basing this off of a user post because I don't know the interview in question) confirms they had issue micing the kit.

I think this was the interview I was talking about: https://noisefull.com/interviews/mike-mangini-dream-theater

Okay, so he doesn't exactly talk about mic placement, but here are a few quotes from the article about the challenges he had:

''From “A Dramatic Turn Of Events”, I learned a lot about almost sounding like there were two microphones in the room and that was it. That was not the case, but that’s my impression of my sound. It’s like, ok, there are those drums in the room, and you can hear all the leakage, because I have all that stuff…once you add a zillion tracks of guitar and keyboards, then my performed nuances and power disappears without detailed equalization strategies.''

''If I was engineering it, I would want at least a solid 4 or 5 days alone with it. I’d then want another two days after all the instruments are weaved in just to adjust to all those other frequencies. However, I basically have to get the drum sound set in a day or two.''

''My toms exploded with transience on “Dream Theater.” They were incredible. However, you can’t do anything you want to the toms without affecting all the “ride” sources, which are the rides, hihats, effects and stacks, on my kit.''

[mikeyd23]

Nice find, thanks man.

[mike099]

Does anyone have an opinion on the live show?  Will they somehow account for the choir and orchestra or will they leave it out? We will find out after the first show in London. 

[bosk1]

It's because it doesn't sound like a snare. What I hear is someone pushing a button on a computer, and some cheap snare sample comes out with the near exact same loudness each time. Maybe would've worked really well on Skrillex's next album, but not on a metal/rock album.

I don't hear what you are hearing.  It sounds like a snare to me.

[jakepriest]

It does sound like a snare, just the worst sounding snare in the history of metal music. 

[Enigmachine]

It does sound like a snare, just the worst sounding snare in the history of metal music. 

Um... St. Anger?

[jakepriest]

It does sound like a snare, just the worst sounding snare in the history of metal music. 

Um... St. Anger?

Much more tolerable for me. It atleast has that unique ring that the DT snare lacks.

[CDrice]

It's because it doesn't sound like a snare. What I hear is someone pushing a button on a computer, and some cheap snare sample comes out with the near exact same loudness each time. Maybe would've worked really well on Skrillex's next album, but not on a metal/rock album.

I don't hear what you are hearing.  It sounds like a snare to me.

Meh, the snare sound he has in this video is much better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qieLc3BmaMw&t=0m17s

[Crow]

dt12 probably has the worst production of any album in my library, and i have black metal albums in my library that intentionally nuked the production for atmosphere's sake

i will honestly blame the production for a lot of why i dislike the album but the real fault was weak songwriting not even close to good enough to overcome the production.

[Jinx]

Just went back and rewatched The Gift of Music and the animation of the (main) NOMAC was much better than the teaser trailer, not that I didn't enjoy that trailer. So I guess we will just wait for the tour!

[Jinx]

Also I just thank God that evidently my ears aren't as tuned in as a lot of the guys on here. Honestly, I just listen to it and love it. Didnt have a problem with ADTOE or DT, I thought they both sounded great! 

[thosava]

I'm glad that drums are the least important instrument for me!

[Enigmachine]

Also I just thank God that evidently my ears aren't as tuned in as a lot of the guys on here. Honestly, I just listen to it and love it. Didnt have a problem with ADTOE or DT, I thought they both sounded great! 

It's not really a matter of being able to hear it, it's more that what people hear is quite divisive. I thought that both albums sound really good as well even if I can hear a lot of what many dislike about them sound-wise.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

dt12 probably has the worst production of any album in my library, and i have black metal albums in my library that intentionally nuked the production for atmosphere's sake

Wow, so I'm guessing you don't have a huge music library, eh?

[ToT-147]

One thing I'll say about the concept/trailer.
If I see anything that suggests that they're just having fun with this, rather than it being super self-serious, it'll improve my opinion of the whole thing drastically.

Probably the trailer wasn't taken so seriously.. But the concept is.. I think the plot is fine, but, most of all, the main idea of it, which Petrucci told in an interview.. That's not joke at all man..




PS: "Warning - while you were typing..." every single time..

[ZirconBlue]

My least favorite snare sound is MP's on A Change of Seasons.  I don't have any issue with the sound of MM's drums, other than some of the cool stuff that was lost in the mix (esp. cymbal parts).

[shadow1psc]

It does sound like a snare, just the worst sounding snare in the history of metal music. 

Um... St. Anger?

Much more tolerable for me. It atleast has that unique ring that the DT snare lacks.

I can't listen to St. Anger's original release. I can enjoy DT12. St. Anger also (I believe) wasn't a post production tweak/choice/error, Lars intentionally wanted to have that sound (and you can kinda tell that he's always leaned towards it, he just finally went off the deep end with it there). Mangini sounds great in every other instance, live or otherwise, I've ever heard him. Something changed on DT12.

[MirrorMask]

All this fuzz about the trailer will be forgotten when the album will be out. Right now people discuss it because it's the only thing we have, basically.

What is the importance of the video for The Looking Glass now that the self titled is out since 2013? how much even the memory that there was a video for On the Back of Angels has an impact in reflecting back on the 2011 album? the trailer will be a very minor footnote in the whole Astonishing history.

[MarkFitDT]

Also I just thank God that evidently my ears aren't as tuned in as a lot of the guys on here. Honestly, I just listen to it and love it. Didnt have a problem with ADTOE or DT, I thought they both sounded great! 

haha, me too. Certainly not weak songwriting on DT12 in my opinion either, its one of my fav DT albums.

[jakepriest]

Mangini sounds great in every other instance, live or otherwise, I've ever heard him. Something changed on DT12.

Well the snare sounds horrible on the new album aswell so it's not a DT12 problem. (unless some drastic sound changes happened between the Gift of Music release and the final product which I doubt)

[shadow1psc]

All this fuzz about the trailer will be forgotten when the album will be out. Right now people discuss it because it's the only thing we have, basically.

What is the importance of the video for The Looking Glass now that the self titled is out since 2013? how much even the memory that there was a video for On the Back of Angels has an impact in reflecting back on the 2011 album? the trailer will be a very minor footnote in the whole Astonishing history.

There's a difference here - while I personally don't care about the trailer's significance, it may or may not be an indication of the final product as brought to us in the live show.

[King Postwhore]

Also I just thank God that evidently my ears aren't as tuned in as a lot of the guys on here. Honestly, I just listen to it and love it. Didnt have a problem with ADTOE or DT, I thought they both sounded great! 

It's not really a matter of being able to hear it, it's more that what people hear is quite divisive. I thought that both albums sound really good as well even if I can hear a lot of what many dislike about them sound-wise.

And you get this from a Youtube clip?  Maybe you should wait until you have a better quality of album in your hands.  Or am I wrong and you have one in your hands right now?

[shadow1psc]

Also I just thank God that evidently my ears aren't as tuned in as a lot of the guys on here. Honestly, I just listen to it and love it. Didnt have a problem with ADTOE or DT, I thought they both sounded great! 

It's not really a matter of being able to hear it, it's more that what people hear is quite divisive. I thought that both albums sound really good as well even if I can hear a lot of what many dislike about them sound-wise.

And you get this from a Youtube clip?  Maybe you should wait until you have a better quality of album in your hands.  Or am I wrong and you have one in your hands right now?

Anyone who preordered has a very nice quality (presumably the final mastered) TGoM track.

[King Postwhore]

Ah.  Thanks what i was wondering  Thanks!

[CoT67]

Maybe generalizing as something went wrong is the wrong way to put it, but you really don't hear the immense difference in snare between ADToE and DT12?

There is certainly a difference but I've never understood the hate it gets.

The word I always use to describe it is 'squishy'. To me it feels out of place and electronic (like from a literal electronic drum module). I know it isn't, but that's what it comes across as to me.

I think I can relate to what you're saying... from ADToE to DT12 (while both don't really have the best drum production in the whole catalogue) and the other albums there is quite a big difference.

The snare on ADToE sounds bright and very snappy, a bit thin compared to the others. If you pay attention you can hear the slight inconsistencies of the hits that make it natural and dynamic.

In DT12 it always sounds like it is hit with the exact same strength in the exact same point and gives the exact same level and tone, other than being a lot more darker and tuned lower. It definitely feels like either a trigger drum sample or a post-production augmented snare with samples.

The TGOM snare, while changing the character and the tone of the previous snare, doesn't change the feel of it. You can hear it especially on the "machine gun" sounding drum rolls and the fact that it always sounds and feels the same, no matter what.

I understand the fact that a lot of metal bands are using and have used triggers and samples to augment their snare sound and improve the consistency of the hits, I just feel that Mangini as a drummer doesn't need it to shine, nor DT needs it for the atmosphere. In my opinion it kills a bit of the vibe Mangini's playing brings when he plays live, where he is at his best.

All this IMHO, and it definitely will not stop me from totally enjoying The Astonishing when it releases. At least the master's good this time around.

EDIT: I've based my opinion of TGOM's snare on the RR track from the preorder, but you can hear it quite well on the youtube compressed version... the only thing that changes is the general tone of the mix being a bit darker and less "defined"

[Train of Naught]

Also I just thank God that evidently my ears aren't as tuned in as a lot of the guys on here. Honestly, I just listen to it and love it. Didnt have a problem with ADTOE or DT, I thought they both sounded great! 

It's not really a matter of being able to hear it, it's more that what people hear is quite divisive. I thought that both albums sound really good as well even if I can hear a lot of what many dislike about them sound-wise.

And you get this from a Youtube clip?  Maybe you should wait until you have a better quality of album in your hands.  Or am I wrong and you have one in your hands right now?

Anyone who preordered has a very nice quality (presumably the final mastered) TGoM track.

Wow, I literally did not know that I got a high quality TGOM file along with my pre-order confirmation  personally I'm not a huge audio critic, I'm not noticing too much difference between this and the Spotify one.

[MirrorMask]

All this fuzz about the trailer will be forgotten when the album will be out. Right now people discuss it because it's the only thing we have, basically.

What is the importance of the video for The Looking Glass now that the self titled is out since 2013? how much even the memory that there was a video for On the Back of Angels has an impact in reflecting back on the 2011 album? the trailer will be a very minor footnote in the whole Astonishing history.

There's a difference here - while I personally don't care about the trailer's significance, it may or may not be an indication of the final product as brought to us in the live show.

Mh, didn't see it that way. You could be right, this kind of animation *may* turn out in the live show, or maybe it will be something completely different... we'll see, after all the animations for the last tour were good even though abstract, so maybe they'll keep the same level.

[hefdaddy42]

Does anyone have an opinion on the live show? 

Haven't seen it.

[mikemangioy]

Mike assured us he doesn't ever use triggers. That's just the way he sounds, precise as hell! I definitely can hear quite a ton of ghost notes on the snare this time around. There were a few in ADTOE and they were completely absent in DT12, but this time they were audible, and that's quite a good sign.

[shadow1psc]

I actually really like the snare on TGoM, even the YouTube mix. DT12 was instantaneous for me. I heard it, I didn't like it, but I grew to appreciate the album as a whole. With TGoM I had none of the initial reaction (well, I had the reaction of 'thank god, the snare is back to normal'). There's definitely dynamics, but for the most part MM sounds like his ultra accurate self. I feel like that's just Mangini being as accurate/consistent as he is.

[Sacul]

dt12 probably has the worst production of any album in my library, and i have black metal albums in my library that intentionally nuked the production for atmosphere's sake

Even worse than Nattens Madrigal? Come on

[Enigmachine]

It's not really a matter of being able to hear it, it's more that what people hear is quite divisive. I thought that both albums sound really good as well even if I can hear a lot of what many dislike about them sound-wise.

And you get this from a Youtube clip?  Maybe you should wait until you have a better quality of album in your hands.  Or am I wrong and you have one in your hands right now?

Are you sure you meant to reply to me? Because I'm talking about ADToE and DT12, the versions I physically own.

dt12 probably has the worst production of any album in my library, and i have black metal albums in my library that intentionally nuked the production for atmosphere's sake

Even worse than Nattens Madrigal? Come on

I'm assuming Parama is using a ton of hyperbole there, I can't really see how the DT12 snare is worse the one on Nattens Madrigal.

[King Postwhore]

It's not really a matter of being able to hear it, it's more that what people hear is quite divisive. I thought that both albums sound really good as well even if I can hear a lot of what many dislike about them sound-wise.

And you get this from a Youtube clip?  Maybe you should wait until you have a better quality of album in your hands.  Or am I wrong and you have one in your hands right now?

Are you sure you meant to reply to me? Because I'm talking about ADToE and DT12, the versions I physically own.

dt12 probably has the worst production of any album in my library, and i have black metal albums in my library that intentionally nuked the production for atmosphere's sake

Even worse than Nattens Madrigal? Come on

I'm assuming Parama is using a ton of hyperbole there, I can't really see how the DT12 snare is worse the one on Nattens Madrigal.

I thought the subject was on TA.  My bad.  Sorry! 

Since we are on that topic.  I do not like the drum sound on DT12.  It doesn't kill it for me.  No St. Anger.  That is the worst sounding snare I have ever heard.

[MirrorMask]

Those of you fixated with the production of a record and details like the drum snare or the guitar tone clearly never lived in the cassette tapes era, where all you had to get by was a cassette taped from a friend taped from a friend taped from a friend that copied it from a lucky rich friend that had the newest wonder of technology, a CD player.

Try to survive on third hand tapes all your formative years, even St. Anger will sound wonderful then