Do you still LOVE Dream Theater??

[Prog Snob]

What is subjective in my opinion is saying I don't like FII as much as many of the other albums. What isn't subjective is saying that there was something missing from that album, something that prevented the band from putting themselves completely into it.

Ah no, that is also completely subjective and opinion, as is most of the rest of your post. I'd recommend Googling what subjective and objective mean, but I'm done here.

 

You're telling me I need to look up the difference between two words. Good one. 

  FII had more compromise than any of their other albums.

And that was a good thing.

I disagree.

An FYI to Blob - that's subjective.

Saying that drama surrounding the band during those times was a hindrance in then making the music they wanted to is objective as it was a fact said by Mike himself. What I said is removed from any biases I might have about the album. There is no conjecture in that statement.

Maybe it's both - maybe there's something missing from that album in terms of extra tracks and the original versions of some of the songs, but when it came time to record, they still gave everything they had.

Clearly there was turmoil in the band if they almost called it quits, but they could still have been trying to create the best record they could given the circumstances.

I see what you're getting at, and I won't doubt they tried their hardest to make the music they wanted, but the compromises and band drama undoubtedly left its indelible mark on the album.

[BlobVanDam]

What is subjective in my opinion is saying I don't like FII as much as many of the other albums. What isn't subjective is saying that there was something missing from that album, something that prevented the band from putting themselves completely into it.

Ah no, that is also completely subjective and opinion, as is most of the rest of your post. I'd recommend Googling what subjective and objective mean, but I'm done here.

 

You're telling me I need to look up the difference between two words. Good one. 

Yes, I am, because your statement was in no way objective, it was a subjective opinion. With no argument otherwise, all you have in return is an empty retort. You're entitled to your opinion on FII, but it's exactly that; just an opinion. As is mine.

[Prog Snob]

What is subjective in my opinion is saying I don't like FII as much as many of the other albums. What isn't subjective is saying that there was something missing from that album, something that prevented the band from putting themselves completely into it.

Ah no, that is also completely subjective and opinion, as is most of the rest of your post. I'd recommend Googling what subjective and objective mean, but I'm done here.

 

You're telling me I need to look up the difference between two words. Good one. 

Yes, I am, because your statement was in no way objective, it was a subjective opinion. With no argument otherwise, all you have in return is an empty retort. You're entitled to your opinion on FII, but it's exactly that; just an opinion. As is mine.

Yes, yours is an opinion. You like the changes that were made. Clearly an opinion. I don't like the changes that were made. Clearly an opinion. However, saying that the drama and frustration within the band due to outside influences affected the music is not. It's based on something actually said by a band member, and I'm sure if John Myung spoke he would have said it, too.

[BlobVanDam]

Yes, yours is an opinion. You like the changes that were made. Clearly an opinion. I don't like the changes that were made. Clearly an opinion. However, saying that the drama and frustration within the band due to outside influences affected the music is not. It's based on something actually said by a band member, and I'm sure if John Myung spoke he would have said it, too.

Firstly, that's not the statement we were discussing that you claimed wasn't subjective. I haven't disagreed that external influences affected the music. In fact, that was part of my initial post for why I felt it had passion, rather than the contrary!

...and I feel the circumstances and pressure actually gave it a lot of passion and authenticity.

We've both just formed a different opinion based on the evidence, that's all. Still a subjective statement on your part, as you can't objectively prove what role "drama and frustration" had on the music vs other factors. There were external influences on the music. This is as close as you get. The nature and degree of this influence is arguable.
And I have also pointed out other DT albums have been affected by outside influence to some degree, and how this is also part of the producer's role in creating an album. There are any number of other external factors influencing the music in any number of ways. Every creative process involving multiple people is the result of compromise, outside producer/songwriter or not. There's no negative connotation to that, that's just how it is. Does that compromise mean they give up and don't give it their all? Every album will have these compromises within the band. It's a group effort. Adding a producer does not change that dynamic, it's part of the collaborative process for them to suggest changes.

I've also given evidence for how much of the album was completely unaffected from DT's original demos recorded as they intended them, so there's no reason they wouldn't have been all in. It is well documented that YNM is not how the band wanted it. That one is supported by everyone involved. That song was meddled with to satisfy the label. There's an argument for TAMP too. The rest, I don't see any strong evidence for it. The band wrote their demos how they wanted them, the label agreed to letting them record that, YNM was the scapegoat for the meddling. Overall, the album is as DT wrote it.

Getting back to the point, this was your claim-

What isn't subjective is saying that there was something missing from that album, something that prevented the band from putting themselves completely into it.

This is subjective. "Something" missing from the album? What is missing? You haven't even quantified what is "missing", let alone supported it objectively. And this undefined thing apparently prevented the band from "putting themselves completely into it". What does putting themselves into it mean? Because one band member's opinion is that it wasn't how he would have made it given full control? Does that prove he didn't still give it his all at the time? We also have evidence from another member (the key songwriter) stating the contrary, that the label didn't affect the music, and that the producer did what any producer is supposed to do for any album. What is the international unit for measuring "putting yourself into it" anyway?

[Prog Snob]

You're writing a lot for someone who said they were done a couple of hours ago.

As far as my comment about something being missing. Yes, it was a kind of vague to say, but I clarified it later on. What was missing was them being left alone to do what they wanted without pressure or anything else distracting them. That didn't happen. Regardless of how many songs were affected, that influence was there. I'm not saying all of it was affected. I just don't get the impression that their hearts were totally in it. There was a lot of resentment at that point and this is all based on random things the guys have said. It's not an opinion of mine. Will those emotions affect output? Of course they will. It doesn't make for a friendly environment and all of this and more subsequently led to MP wanting to leave the band. If his feelings were that strong, something obviously wasn't right. The making of an album that came close to breaking the band up. Those studio sessions were stressful.

Anyway, you forgot to mention You Not Me/You Or Me/01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01001110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01001101 01100101 was co-written by *cough* Desmond Child. That's not something that would have ever happened without external influence. Oh, and that Jamaican or tropical rainy day intro to Take Away My Pain - God that ruined a perfect song.

[rumborak]

With all their songs about dead loved ones (ACOS, TBOT, TAMP), TAMP stands out to me as the most genuine, heartfelt of them all. I have no idea how one could accuse FII of having no passion.

[Bertielee]

With all their songs about dead loved ones (ACOS, TBOT, TAMP), TAMP stands out to me as the most genuine, heartfelt of them all. I have no idea how one could accuse FII of having no passion.

I concur. We can say that with FII, they took a different road, but I've never felt it lacks passion. And from genuinely hating it after the first few listens, I've come to love it. The beauty of music.

B.Lee

[BlobVanDam]

With all their songs about dead loved ones (ACOS, TBOT, TAMP), TAMP stands out to me as the most genuine, heartfelt of them all. I have no idea how one could accuse FII of having no passion.

Even that guitar solo oozes emotion.

[Prog Snob]

With all their songs about dead loved ones (ACOS, TBOT, TAMP), TAMP stands out to me as the most genuine, heartfelt of them all. I have no idea how one could accuse FII of having no passion.

Now I know that wasn't directed at me, because I never said it had NO passion. I'll just assume you're referring to someone else then.

[CDrice]

I hear a ton of passion on FII

DT still wrote the music, and wrote stuff that was important to them at the time, and I feel the circumstances and pressure actually gave it a lot of passion and authenticity.

While Falling Into Infinty is definitely not one of my favorite Dream Theater album, I subjectively agree with those.

And as for the actual subject of this thread, I got into Dream Theater in 2009 (I bought the greatest hits first and Black Clouds when it came out not long after) and they've been my favorite band since then.

[KevShmev]

  FII had more compromise than any of their other albums.

And that was a good thing.

I disagree.

Why?  Compromise is, more often than not, a good thing, and when you consider what might have happened without compromise (lesser versions of certain albums tracks; Metropolis II being released then, meaning no Scenes from a Memory; etc.), I would say compromise was absolutely a good thing, when you consider a) how good FII ended up being, and b) what happened with the band in the years after that.

[Prog Snob]

  FII had more compromise than any of their other albums.

And that was a good thing.

I disagree.

Why?  Compromise is, more often than not, a good thing, and when you consider what might have happened without compromise (lesser versions of certain albums tracks; Metropolis II being released then, meaning no Scenes from a Memory; etc.), I would say compromise was absolutely a good thing, when you consider a) how good FII ended up being, and b) what happened with the band in the years after that.

You don't know what would have happened had FII been produced without the external influences. Maybe DT releases FII without the edited songs and no Desmond Child, but doesn't make a second disc for Metropolis 2. Maybe they do add disc two. There's no automatic (or dramatic) turn of events. Anything you say, if this, if that, is pure conjecture. We only know what did happen and what didn't happen. Considering what didn't happen makes up 99% of the possibilities, the different paths (that divide) they could have went down are endless (like Rena's sacrifice).

[KevShmev]

Sure, we can't say anything 100 percent would have happened, but given what has been said, had they been left to their own devices with no need to compromise, it's extremely likely that they release a double album which would have included Metropolis Part 2.

I am still fuzzy on why compromise is a bad thing.  I know I am not alone in thinking that more than a few of DT's albums from the 21st century might have been better had they been forced to compromise, aka had an outside ear to give them advice on what to trim or tweak here and there.

[Madman Shepherd]

I don't agree with Blob a lot but I'd say his assessment of FII is pretty accurate, along with rumborak pointing out about the amount of emotional subjects they were writing about.  To me, it is clearly a passionate album. 

A week or two ago there was a discussion about just how much outside influence affected the album.  I even pulled out Lifting Shadows to try to get a more full picture.  We know Mike was unhappy.  That's indisputable.  But the interview linked in this thread to Petrucci's thoughts on the album show that Mike and JP didn't agree a lot during that period.  We also know that in a lot of their decisions, the band outvoted Mike 3-2 on a lot of decisions.  My theory was that James sided with Mike as they used to be very close and James is the only other band member that has publicly bashed the album and I'm assuming JM sided with his highschool pal JP and Sherinian probably wanted to go the more mainstream route. 

That means at least 3 of them had a lot of passion in that album. 

But hey...opinions. 

I disagree with Blob that ADTOE is their least passionate album.  I think that one had a ton of renewed vigor, passion, emotion, etc. 

[Viking of the Sagas]

I merely like Dream Theater. I think they're a great bunch with a sense of humor, though they could stand to be more creative at times. I don't consider them to be my favourites at this point, though who knows? The number one spot is always just one album away.

[Lethean]

Maybe it's both - maybe there's something missing from that album in terms of extra tracks and the original versions of some of the songs, but when it came time to record, they still gave everything they had.

Clearly there was turmoil in the band if they almost called it quits, but they could still have been trying to create the best record they could given the circumstances.

I see what you're getting at, and I won't doubt they tried their hardest to make the music they wanted, but the compromises and band drama undoubtedly left its indelible mark on the album.

I should have joined this forum a long time ago; a lot of interesting discussion here.

I agree that it left it's mark on the album, and that "something" is missing as far as the band's intentions.  But as a piece of art, I think at the end of the day, they gave all they could, and it turned out pretty well.  Could it have been better?  I think so... seeing that my favorite tracks are the ones that weren't really messed with (Trial of Tears especially), I feel that their own complete vision would have resulted in a stronger album.  On the other hand, maybe things worked out for the best in the end.  Of course we can never know that for sure, but sometimes overcoming adversity can make you stronger in the end, and that may have happened with DT.  Also, JP said that he didn't mind the label involvement as much as MP did, and that he felt there were things he could learn.  I'm sure he did learn a lot working with an outside writer and producer, even if he didn't like the end result as much as the original song anyway.  But he's never wanted to give up that control since, so I suppose he felt it was a good experiment but from that point forward wanted to be able to achieve the band's vision.  And personally I say good for him - I don't want an outside producer "trimming things up" and generally messing around with what DT creates.  (If he ever decides he does want to work with someone else - I don't see a problem with it as long as DT still has the final say.)

[Prog Snob]

That divide between JP and MP as far as the label's interference is probably something that really bothered Mike. I bet since one (JP) of the three original members was ready to concede to the label's wishes it made MP consider the possibility that it wasn't worth it anymore. It's probably one of the incidents that caused him to want to quit the band mid tour. I mean, DT was his life. It was everything to him. Just how bad did it get during the studio sessions, and other band moments, that he would want to walk away from it.

[Madman Shepherd]

That divide between JP and MP as far as the label's interference is probably something that really bothered Mike. I bet since one (JP) of the three original members was ready to concede to the label's wishes it made MP consider the possibility that it wasn't worth it anymore.

I don't think JP was "conceding" as in, "god, I don't like this but ok fine."  From everything he has said, he really liked working on songs, hearing Kevin Shirley's different ideas, and going in and reworking them.  For instance, Take Away My Pain is one of the few songs that changed dramatically.  Mike has said terrible things about it, "It sounds like disney," but JP has never said anything bad. 

We also know that John was flown to florida (I think) to work with Desmond Child and John has gone on record as saying he really enjoyed working with Child and it was a great new experience for how to write songs.  Mike hated it. 

So I don't think JP looks at it like he was being bullied by the label.  Mike sure does though. 

[Prog Snob]

John isn't the type to start outright bashing something he doesn't like though. He's classier in that aspect. If he was really upset about the change to the song he wrote for his father, or any song for that matter, he might not express that.

[Madman Shepherd]

John isn't the type to start outright bashing something he doesn't like though. He's classier in that aspect. If he was really upset about the change to the song he wrote for his father, or any song for that matter, he might not express that.

You definitely have a point.  He is not the type to bash.  But in Lifting Shadows and that interview he was very specific in saying he is proud of that album. 

Had he any issue with it I'm sure he would have dodged it a bit more. 

[Mosh]

Check out the Score documentary when Portnoy is talking about the album. There seems to be an implication that JP was fine with the direction they were taking while other members weren't. Maybe that means MP was the only one not fine with it, maybe there was a 2-2 split (I suppose Derek wouldn't have as much of a say in this department).

[IDontNotDoThings]

I think it was discussed earlier in the thread (or maybe some other one) that the split was 2-3 in favour of the album's general direction & that JLB was likely the one who agreed with MP.

[Prog Snob]

John isn't the type to start outright bashing something he doesn't like though. He's classier in that aspect. If he was really upset about the change to the song he wrote for his father, or any song for that matter, he might not express that.

You definitely have a point.  He is not the type to bash.  But in Lifting Shadows and that interview he was very specific in saying he is proud of that album. 

Had he any issue with it I'm sure he would have dodged it a bit more.

I guess he was a bit more open to the possible path the band was taking. It's probably one of the things that upset MP so much.

[erwinrafael]

Reading through the whole thread again, I find it funny that many of those who want Dream Theater to be creative, try new directions, etc. actually want DT to go back to how they sound and look more than a decade ago.

[Prog Snob]

Sometimes I don't think people really know what they want.

[erwinrafael]

Yes. Like "I wish Dream Theater would jam out an album like in the old days." Then proceeds to bash the Dream Theater self-titled album which was a product of a jam. "I wish they would get an outside producer." Then proceeds to bash Falling into Infinity.

[erwinrafael]

Anyway, Petrucci interviews Maddi. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UncTRuioUSE


The Great White North cameo is awesome.

[BlobVanDam]

Yes. Like "I wish Dream Theater would jam out an album like in the old days." Then proceeds to bash the Dream Theater self-titled album which was a product of a jam. "I wish they would get an outside producer." Then proceeds to bash Falling into Infinity.

This is an oversimplification. Just because something doesn't work in one circumstance, doesn't mean the approach is undesirable under all circumstances, or that there aren't other factors at play in their success or failure. Writing music isn't a checklist of "do this and it will turn out good", or else it would be easy.

[erwinrafael]

Yes. Like "I wish Dream Theater would jam out an album like in the old days." Then proceeds to bash the Dream Theater self-titled album which was a product of a jam. "I wish they would get an outside producer." Then proceeds to bash Falling into Infinity.

This is an oversimplification. Just because something doesn't work in one circumstance, doesn't mean the approach is undesirable under all circumstances, or that there aren't other factors at play in their success or failure. Writing music isn't a checklist of "do this and it will turn out good", or else it would be easy.

Well, I am indeed oversimplifying what I read in this thread. 

[Madman Shepherd]

Check out the Score documentary when Portnoy is talking about the album. There seems to be an implication that JP was fine with the direction they were taking while other members weren't. Maybe that means MP was the only one not fine with it, maybe there was a 2-2 split (I suppose Derek wouldn't have as much of a say in this department).

I believe Derek probably had a full vote by then.  It seems that DT is pretty much a democracy EXCEPT Mike pretty much made them concede to him having control over certain aspects. 

I was shocked when Portnoy left because I assumed he "owned" a higher share of the band, perhaps equal to JP but more than JR or JLB but it really seems like it was split equally in many regards (when it comes to votes regarding major decisions, performance royalties, etc). 

[YtseJam]

I still love them but the sit down and shut up experience I had at the last show did irk me. I have every right to bitch about it and voice my opinion about it. Doesn't mean I don't love them still though andfFans talk about things they are fans of. It's passion not necessarily negativity.

[bosk1]

Blob, I'm not knocking your feelings about FII one bit.  But I think you are WAY understating the outside influence on that album's overall sound.  For starters, I feel you are underselling the differences between demos and final songs in many instances.  Differences that you categorize and "minor" do have an impact on the feel of the songs.  Those subtle differences combined with the rather substantial changes to a couple of other songs add up.  Second, keep in mind that the band wrote the songs they way they did in the first place because of the pressures from the label.  Third, there indeed is an overall difference in sound on FII that is not present on their other albums.  And while I can appreciate that that in and of itself may not be a "bad" thing, it is something that fans at the time noticed and a lot of fans didn't like it.  And while some in latter years have tried to write that off as people just falling in line with Portnoy's negative comments about the album, a good many people that didn't like FII didn't know anything about Portnoy's thoughts at the time they formed their opinions (myself included).  So whether or not you may like how FII turned out, the negative perception about the label's influence is very real and shouldn't be dismissed.

As far as I know, Images & Words and Awake were never meant to be a double album.

Unless I am forgetting something and certain other songs would have been left off, if A Change of Seasons had been included as the band intended, it would have made I&W a double album. 

[BlobVanDam]

Blob, I'm not knocking your feelings about FII one bit.  But I think you are WAY understating the outside influence on that album's overall sound.  For starters, I feel you are underselling the differences between demos and final songs in many instances.  Differences that you categorize and "minor" do have an impact on the feel of the songs.  Those subtle differences combined with the rather substantial changes to a couple of other songs add up.  Second, keep in mind that the band wrote the songs they way they did in the first place because of the pressures from the label.  Third, there indeed is an overall difference in sound on FII that is not present on their other albums.  And while I can appreciate that that in and of itself may not be a "bad" thing, it is something that fans at the time noticed and a lot of fans didn't like it.  And while some in latter years have tried to write that off as people just falling in line with Portnoy's negative comments about the album, a good many people that didn't like FII didn't know anything about Portnoy's thoughts at the time they formed their opinions (myself included).  So whether or not you may like how FII turned out, the negative perception about the label's influence is very real and shouldn't be dismissed.

I've actually always defended that MP's opinions are not responsible for people's negative opinions of FII, despite personally loving the album. I find such dismissal of people's opinions patronizing. (I know you weren't accusing me of that, but still felt it needed to be said)
FII was a change in direction from the previous two albums, so it's naturally to be expected that many people did not enjoy it as much, as has also been the case on many later albums where there was a change in sound that leaned more towards one side of DT's elements. To me that doesn't reflect badly on the album, nor those later albums.

While I don't mean to understate the label pressure, I believe Prog Snob is way OVER-stating that influence on the music. Yes, it was relatively more commercial sounding, but it's still so firmly within the scope of DT's sound. We'll also have to agree to disagree on the differences from demo to final.

[hefdaddy42]

The only thing I take issue with is the statement that FII has some lack of passion.  I have never felt that way, and I am definitely one of those who was disheartened with the album ever since it was released.

If I were to accuse an album of being relatively passionless or going through the motions (which I'm not sure that I would), that album would definitely be BC&SL.

[Bertielee]

The only thing I take issue with is the statement that FII has some lack of passion.  I have never felt that way, and I am definitely one of those who was disheartened with the album ever since it was released.

If I were to accuse an album of being relatively passionless or going through the motions (which I'm not sure that I would), that album would definitely be BC&SL.

Totally agree with you there, Hef. BC&SL is clinical for me.

B.Lee