In Defense of James LaBrie: A Manifesto

[wolfking]

yeah i had it backwards lol maybe he's only running a few kilos a day..

If he were doing 5kms back in the day, that's not a lot and certainly achievable and really usually only a 25-30 minute workout depending on pace.

[wolfking]

I run zero miles per day, which somehow equates to zero kgms.

0 kilograms and 0 kilometres!  Impressive.

[TAC]

0 kilograms and 0 kilometres!  Impressive.

lol! Damn metric system.

[wolfking]

   It's Hojos fault for calling kms, kilos.

[ZirconBlue]

I beg to differ on that. None of the options you've listed work, IMO (never been a fan of touring musicians to augment a band's sound, nor backing tracks). Best for the band to be more selective in the songs played, to down tune them, and to alter the vocal melodies to something that the vocalist can do, as well as for the vocalist to seek out help to figure out their weaknesses so that they can be addressed.

This.  Adjust the vocal melodies to suit his current abilities, and get a vocal coach to make sure he's doing the best he can with what he still has.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

  It's Hojos fault for calling kms, kilos.

it's always my fault!

[wolfking]

it's always my fault!

I'm glad we agree

[gborland]

never been a fan of touring musicians to augment a band's sound,

Ted Leonard added a lot to Transatlantic's live shows. Definitely the right decision.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

This.  Adjust the vocal melodies to suit his current abilities, and get a vocal coach to make sure he's doing the best he can with what he still has.

Isn't he already doing this? On the last two tours people were speculating that one of the reasons he was struggling was in part because he was playing with the vocal melodies too much.

[DAYAFTERDAY]

This is one of the better performances I've seen from the Dreamsonic tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVJhybXTaHQ&ab_channel=Stefii714

Solitary Shell seems like a good fit for modern James, especially the verses, very comfortable for his ability. The higher parts in the chorus are a bit of a struggle and yes he's a bit flat, but it's not unlistenable and doesn't feel like he's hurting himself. Losing Time/Grand Finale is difficult to sing especially toward the end so I can forgive the off parts there but I actually think he did ok with it.

I don't really know where I'm going with this post I just watched this video and wanted to talk about it somewhere.

Does anyone have any other performances from 22' 23' where they think he sounded alright? Maybe I just think this is fine due to only having seen a couple of clips of 6:00 and Caught in a Web from this tour that just were a total mess.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

This is one of the better performances I've seen from the Dreamsonic tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVJhybXTaHQ&ab_channel=Stefii714

Solitary Shell seems like a good fit for modern James, especially the verses, very comfortable for his ability. The higher parts in the chorus are a bit of a struggle and yes he's a bit flat, but it's not unlistenable and doesn't feel like he's hurting himself. Losing Time/Grand Finale is difficult to sing especially toward the end so I can forgive the off parts there but I actually think he did ok with it.

I don't really know where I'm going with this post I just watched this video and wanted to talk about it somewhere.

Does anyone have any other performances from 22' 23' where they think he sounded alright? Maybe I just think this is fine due to only having seen a couple of clips of 6:00 and Caught in a Web from this tour that just were a total mess.

Great performance, the only thing I noticed was he sang "Learned to talk and talk on time"

If that's the only flaw in an otherwise great performance, I think it goes without saying that our guy is still THE GUY

[Schurftkut]

i always hated that MP would really speed up SS live that would make the vocals sound rushed, but i really don't think that's a great performance even with the tempo being proper. It's like he's missing a lot of body and warmth in his vocals live. Something like fucking up a lyric like that doesn't bother me really 

[crystalstars17]

If that's the only flaw in an otherwise great performance, I think it goes without saying that our guy is still THE GUY

I concur! ✨

[WilliamMunny]

I concur! ✨

Me as well. Definitely a good showing from JLB that night.

Honestly, at this point, with how many months have passed, I am done looking back on the past two (admittedly shaky) tours.

What matters is how the band sounds next. JLB, in particular, can only worry about the next album/show/tour album. These videos are the past, and there is nothing that he, or anyone in DT can do about it now.

That said, I refuse to discount the next tour because of the last. The band has given me too much over these past three decades, so they've earned that right in my book. I'm going to assume good things for the upcoming album and tour, and I'm pretty sure the band and James are doing the same.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

Me as well. Definitely a good showing from JLB that night.

Honestly, at this point, with how many months have passed, I am done looking back on the past two (admittedly shaky) tours.

What matters is how the band sounds next. JLB, in particular, can only worry about the next album/show/tour album. These videos are the past, and there is nothing that he, or anyone in DT can do about it now.

That said, I refuse to discount the next tour because of the last. The band has given me too much over these past three decades, so they've earned that right in my book. I'm going to assume good things for the upcoming album and tour, and I'm pretty sure the band and James are doing the same.

Great point, and I think the wind being at their backs with MP's return means all 5 of them, not just JLB, will be reinvigorated

[ZirconBlue]

Isn't he already doing this? On the last two tours people were speculating that one of the reasons he was struggling was in part because he was playing with the vocal melodies too much.

He's always done adjustments on the fly, but I mean writing and rehearsing a new, consistent vocal part that he can reproduce night after night.

[geeeemo]

All I know is that I pay attention to the live performances when I am at the live performances. (and listen to the official ones)
Of the 5 shows I saw the last 2 tours, I enjoyed them all immensely. James isn't like he used to be, but its still great for me. Even my
son, who has been critical of James had no complaints even at DreamSonic we were at where I thought it wasn't the best I had seen.
The shows are fun, the songs are enjoyable, and having someone else sing would just ruin it for me.

[WilliamMunny]

He's always done adjustments on the fly, but I mean writing and rehearsing a new, consistent vocal part that he can reproduce night after night.

That's my take as well–the last few shows he worked on singing "Pull Me Under" in a lower register, and the results were immediately better. I think, had he rehearsed it like that before the tour, the song would've generated little to no debate.

Ray Alder is proof positive that fans will embrace a singer's soulful reinvention of a melody, as long as it's delivered confidently (and in key).

[Dream Team]

Right. Even if he's barely tolerable on this next tour, some here will make it sound like it's the second coming of Robert Plant but geeemo's point is legit - it DOESN'T matter when you attend the show, most of his problems aren't as noticeable in that environment. It might suck later for the DVD vocal correction guy, but I've been to many DT shows and never been distracted by his vocals not being good and I expect to enjoy the next show as well.

[jammindude]

He's always done adjustments on the fly, but I mean writing and rehearsing a new, consistent vocal part that he can reproduce night after night.

Exactly. Making things up on the fly sometimes works, and sometimes sometimes doesn’t. Because without rehearsing it to make sure of what works and what doesn’t you’re playing the guessing game in front of your entire audience. You need to have these factors worked out in rehearsal, and find out what does work before you go out and present it to the general public.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

It could be me coming off of a decade of jam band touring but I like when they improvise things like that - even vocal melodies. It gives the performance uniqueness, it shows the artist is willing to play around with their art a bit. One of the things that turned me away from prog metal and metal in general in recent years is how static, clean, perfect, backing tracked, etc. everything about the show is. I like when there's mistakes, I like when the singer tries something weird and it does or doesn't work. It's performance art, and it doesn't have to be "good" 100% of the time to be interesting, and fun.

If I wanted a perfect recreation of the studio album, I would listen to the studio album, or watch some tiktok teen perfectly re-create it. Give me something interesting live! As someone else said, even if it's a "miss", in the moment you probably won't even notice anyway


EDIT: The most egregious example of this with bands for me has always been Between the Buried and Me. I love their studio stuff, and have seen them live a few times, but everytime it's like they're just there to perfectly recreate the album note-for-note (which is, to be clear, an impressive feat, just not necessarily what I am looking for live). Even worse, it feels like EVERY BTBAM tour is an "album anniversary" tour. When are we just gonna get a setlist with some surprises in it out of them? lol

[Herrick]

It could be me coming off of a decade of jam band touring but I like when they improvise things like that - even vocal melodies. It gives the performance uniqueness, it shows the artist is willing to play around with their art a bit. One of the things that turned me away from prog metal and metal in general in recent years is how static, clean, perfect, backing tracked, etc. everything about the show is. I like when there's mistakes, I like when the singer tries something weird and it does or doesn't work. It's performance art, and it doesn't have to be "good" 100% of the time to be interesting, and fun.

If I wanted a perfect recreation of the studio album, I would listen to the studio album, or watch some tiktok teen perfectly re-create it. Give me something interesting live! As someone else said, even if it's a "miss", in the moment you probably won't even notice anyway


EDIT: The most egregious example of this with bands for me has always been Between the Buried and Me. I love their studio stuff, and have seen them live a few times, but everytime it's like they're just there to perfectly recreate the album note-for-note (which is, to be clear, an impressive feat, just not necessarily what I am looking for live). Even worse, it feels like EVERY BTBAM tour is an "album anniversary" tour. When are we just gonna get a setlist with some surprises in it out of them? lol

I think when a singer has as much difficulty as LaBrie, they should just stick to what's on the album or some version that they can consistently pull off live.

I like seeing a perfect live performance of the studio version because it shows they can pull it off. But I can understand how that doesn't appeal to everyone. I wonder if Dream Theater will throw in some surprises and stuff now that Portnoy has returned.

[Dream Team]

From what I have learned, the "power of belief" will ensure James will slay on this tour. That leaves open the question of course of why didn't that power of belief work on the last tour?

But in all seriousness, MP will have a doable setlist for James. He doesn't have blinders on.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

From what I have learned, the "power of belief" will ensure James will slay on this tour. That leaves open the question of course of why didn't that power of belief work on the last tour?

But in all seriousness, MP will have a doable setlist for James. He doesn't have blinders on.

What would be considered doable at this point?

[gmillerdrake]

What would be considered doable at this point?

Exactly.

I love DT and love JLB...but, for whatever reason he hasn't been able to maintain his voice like a lot of other older singers. I get that they do a ton of shows and the songs he's singing are pretty taxing on his vocal chords....but, there's a definite drop in ability. I think he manages the shows well...but...I wish I knew vocalist terminology to help me describe what I'm trying to say.....his annunciation and I don't know...tone or whatever....to me....is lazy. There are times he doesn't even try to hit the same way he pronounces/sings certain words on the records....which then sounds off and his pitch/tone is flat and he holds it out longer....to me it all sounds lazy when he does that.

I've seen them live the last few times they've come through and honestly JLB sounded fine for the shows and he's not what detracted from the shows IMO. It was how freaking LOUD Petrucci's guitar was and has been. It renders JMX all but useless and even took away from MM as he seemed turned down. I really hope that gets addressed because it was/is out of hand. 

[gzarruk]

What would be considered doable at this point?

That's a great question. Some would say the answer is focusing on newer/recent material instead of the classic songs with the very high pitched sections, but on the last tour he was struggling a lot with The Alien, one of their latest singles. It's not just the high stuff he struggles with.

[Stadler]

Exactly.

I love DT and love JLB...but, for whatever reason he hasn't been able to maintain his voice like a lot of other older singers. I get that they do a ton of shows and the songs he's singing are pretty taxing on his vocal chords....but, there's a definite drop in ability. I think he manages the shows well...but...I wish I knew vocalist terminology to help me describe what I'm trying to say.....his annunciation and I don't know...tone or whatever....to me....is lazy. There are times he doesn't even try to hit the same way he pronounces/sings certain words on the records....which then sounds off and his pitch/tone is flat and he holds it out longer....to me it all sounds lazy when he does that.

I've seen them live the last few times they've come through and honestly JLB sounded fine for the shows and he's not what detracted from the shows IMO. It was how freaking LOUD Petrucci's guitar was and has been. It renders JMX all but useless and even took away from MM as he seemed turned down. I really hope that gets addressed because it was/is out of hand.

That's the issue for me; I don't give a rat's ass if they tune down, or sing in a lower octave, or reformulate the vocal lines.  I'm a Kiss fan for fuck's sake; Paul hasn't sung Detroit Rock City using the album melody in like 100 years.  BUT... when I saw them in Bridgeport on the Dreamsonic tour, he was REALLY pitchy at times; I don't think it's unfair to ask that whatever line you DO sing, sing it in tune.

[WilliamMunny]

That's the issue for me; I don't give a rat's ass if they tune down, or sing in a lower octave, or reformulate the vocal lines.  I'm a Kiss fan for fuck's sake; Paul hasn't sung Detroit Rock City using the album melody in like 100 years.  BUT... when I saw them in Bridgeport on the Dreamsonic tour, he was REALLY pitchy at times; I don't think it's unfair to ask that whatever line you DO sing, sing it in tune.

I'm with both of you here.

I'll see your Paul Stanley point and raise you Robert Plant (who hasn't sung what's on the record since mid '72).

I don't care if he talks his way through the verses, sings the chorus an octave lower, or even splits the vocals with MP, but when he opens his mouth and sings, if the note is 50 cents flat over and over again, it's gonna make me cringe.

If I've said it one, I've said it a dozen times...come up with a melody that you can sing with confidence. Who wouldn't want that?

There's a reason Plant began singing "Over the Hills and Far Away" completely differently within months of the release of Houses of the Holy–the dude couldn't go three words without his voice cracking.

And here is, fifty years later, still writing and recording vital music. As is Ray Alder. There's a way to do this even if your fastball is long gone.

[YngVai]

Robert Plant is, I think, an excellent example of being mindful of your voice's capabilities as you age. His live performances now, while of an entirely different character than Zep, still have so much quality and character and are a joy to witness.

[Herrick]

I've seen them live the last few times they've come through and honestly JLB sounded fine for the shows and he's not what detracted from the shows IMO. It was how freaking LOUD Petrucci's guitar was and has been. It renders JMX all but useless and even took away from MM as he seemed turned down. I really hope that gets addressed because it was/is out of hand.

The guitar was very loud when I saw them last June. I'm definitely wearing earplugs next time I see them.

[Herrick]

I don't care if he talks his way through the verses...

I don't know...I think I'd almost rather hear LaBrie sing at his current ability than use the David Lee Roth method.

[crystalstars17]

Making things up on the fly sometimes works, and sometimes sometimes doesn’t. Because without rehearsing it to make sure of what works and what doesn’t you’re playing the guessing game in front of your entire audience. You need to have these factors worked out in rehearsal, and find out what does work before you go out and present it to the general public.

I agree here. He needs to have a ready, rehearsed and polished performance to present to the audience. Not only because it's just good musicianship to do so, but because much of that audience is hyper critical, today more than ever.

I like seeing a perfect live performance of the studio version because it shows they can pull it off.

This! You just succinctly worded what I have been trying to say for months.

I love DT and love JLB...but, for whatever reason he hasn't been able to maintain his voice like a lot of other older singers.

There's a good reason for that, and it's the injury. I've used the analogy before of an athlete playing on a bum knee. He's working around a physical instrument and through damage that was sustained, scar tissue, etc. It's a difficult situation to be working through, something that by nature is so unreliable. And I give him a lot of credit for not just giving up. But he really can't be compared to "other older singers" for that reason.

I think he manages the shows well...but...I wish I knew vocalist terminology to help me describe what I'm trying to say.....his annunciation and I don't know...tone or whatever....to me....is lazy. There are times he doesn't even try to hit the same way he pronounces/sings certain words on the records....which then sounds off and his pitch/tone is flat and he holds it out longer....to me it all sounds lazy when he does that.

And when you say it sounds "lazy" here, you would be right. This is not to say that he is lazy (on the contrary!). But what you're hearing is a bad vocal habit he has fallen into, namely, the fall of the soft palate. Without raising the soft palate along with taking the breath before singing the note, that note is not gonna happen - especially the higher the note in question is. It will also cause the tone to sound strident and flat. So you could say he has fallen into a lazy palate habit, and the only correction for this is retraining.

The shows are fun, the songs are enjoyable, and having someone else sing would just ruin it for me.

💯

This is the bottom line.

[Awaken]

I'm with both of you here.

I'll see your Paul Stanley point and raise you Robert Plant (who hasn't sung what's on the record since mid '72).

I don't care if he talks his way through the verses, sings the chorus an octave lower, or even splits the vocals with MP, but when he opens his mouth and sings, if the note is 50 cents flat over and over again, it's gonna make me cringe.

If I've said it one, I've said it a dozen times...come up with a melody that you can sing with confidence. Who wouldn't want that?

There's a reason Plant began singing "Over the Hills and Far Away" completely differently within months of the release of Houses of the Holy–the dude couldn't go three words without his voice cracking.

And here is, fifty years later, still writing and recording vital music. As is Ray Alder. There's a way to do this even if your fastball is long gone.

You've mentioned Ray a couple times and I think he's absolutely the proper comparison for JLB.  They both 'grew up' in the same era, they both recorded vocals with ridiculous range in their day.  They're both still touring (though, Ray far less than JLB).  You can argue Ray abused his voice far worse than JLB with smoking all those years.  So, let's call it somewhat even in terms of wear/tear for the sake of argument.

I just finished my gym time and Fate's Warning 'Live over Europe' (2018) got me through the session.  What immediately struck me was the was Ray tackled his early material knowing full well he no longer can deliver the range that was recorded.  Songs from No Exit, Perfect Symmetry, Parallels - he delivers amazing performances on each without shouting/yelling/trying to belt out the original melody/key.  Since the two bands are intimately familiar w each other, specifically MP, I would really hope he's taking a page from how FW delivered their earlier material and trying to find a similar path for the early DT songs.  Honestly, I really feel despite their history, MP may be exactly what JLB needed in terms of live performance.  We'll see, but that's my hope.

[Dream Team]

Exactly.

I love DT and love JLB...but, for whatever reason he hasn't been able to maintain his voice like a lot of other older singers. I get that they do a ton of shows and the songs he's singing are pretty taxing on his vocal chords....but, there's a definite drop in ability. I think he manages the shows well...but...I wish I knew vocalist terminology to help me describe what I'm trying to say.....his annunciation and I don't know...tone or whatever....to me....is lazy. There are times he doesn't even try to hit the same way he pronounces/sings certain words on the records....which then sounds off and his pitch/tone is flat and he holds it out longer....to me it all sounds lazy when he does that.

I've seen them live the last few times they've come through and honestly JLB sounded fine for the shows and he's not what detracted from the shows IMO. It was how freaking LOUD Petrucci's guitar was and has been. It renders JMX all but useless and even took away from MM as he seemed turned down. I really hope that gets addressed because it was/is out of hand.

+1000. JP’s ego needs to take a major step back. I’d like to hear all the instruments. There’s no reason at all for them to crank it that high, it’s not a death metal show.  There’s no way the loudness complaints haven’t reached their ears, no pun intended.

[gmillerdrake]

It baffles me when I can go see HAKEN and Symphony X and ‘smaller’ bands like that and thier mix is spot on where everyone is featured……then go to a DT show and get crushed with nothing but guitar and a hint of keyboard.