The loudness war (formerly RR petition thread)

[TheGreatPretender]

i doubt it. including the digital files is for convenience, not for alternate mastering — but i guess we'll have to wait and see...

But the vinyl will be mastered differently than the CD, right? I thought the vinyl format can't handle extremely hot mastering? So then, maybe the FLAC files will contain the vinyl masters?

[Lucien]

Dream Theater has most of its stuff (other than reissues and vinyls) below a DR of 10.

[seasonsinthesky]

i doubt it. including the digital files is for convenience, not for alternate mastering — but i guess we'll have to wait and see...

But the vinyl will be mastered differently than the CD, right? I thought the vinyl format can't handle extremely hot mastering? So then, maybe the FLAC files will contain the vinyl masters?

you're definitely right! however, methinks they would have advertised the included digital files as the vinyl master (or the HDtracks master, for that matter, since they apparently drop the limiter settings for those).

i think it'd be an excellent idea for RR and DT to include a voucher for the HDtracks download. that way, people who want the regular master for their iPod or whatever can have it, and those who want the high quality version can get it from the same box without paying extra.

[TheGreatPretender]

you're definitely right! however, methinks they would have advertised the included digital files as the vinyl master (or the HDtracks master, for that matter, since they apparently drop the limiter settings for those).

i think it'd be an excellent idea for RR and DT to include a voucher for the HDtracks download. that way, people who want the regular master for their iPod or whatever can have it, and those who want the high quality version can get it from the same box without paying extra.

That'd be pretty sweet. But I'm sure the company that makes those HDTracks don't actually get any money FROM RR, so they probably make their money through selling them separately.

[Kotowboy]

https://www.nme.com/news/nine-inch-nails/72329

Relevant.

[BlobVanDam]

Sounds like the perfect solution to me, and it looks like they're offering the "audiophile" version in MP3, FLAC, and 24bit/48Khz. What more could you need?
Hopefully more bands follow their lead, because I couldn't care less how loud they want to release the album, if there's an alternative version to satisfy everyone.

[Kotowboy]

More bands should release the songs from the desk. Just mixed & bounced to 2-track.


Mastering is only to make it sound the same on all formats - but if it's download only - then it doesn't matter does it ?


I want to know if people have tried explaining to labels that you just can't turn CDs up any louder. You've run out of room. They're as loud as they will ever go.

[PixelDream]

I just listened to TEI on Spotify, and after that PMU came on (they're both in the top 10 most popular DT tracks). Since I have the option 'set same volume for all tracks' checked, both tracks were just as loud. The only difference was that TEI sounded horrible, and I found my attention was slipping away (this happens EVERY time I listen to it, because of the wall of sound), and PMU sounded alive and kicking.

One other thing I just realised: The album cover of the new DT album looks very alike the most recent Sevendust album. The 7D album I listened to the other day, and I found it was their most compressed sounding album yet. Could DT have gotten the idea from them?

[wolfking]

One other thing I just realised: The album cover of the new DT album looks very alike the most recent Sevendust album. The 7D album I listened to the other day, and I found it was their most compressed sounding album yet. Could DT have gotten the idea from them?

No.

[TheGreatPretender]

Sounds like the perfect solution to me, and it looks like they're offering the "audiophile" version in MP3, FLAC, and 24bit/48Khz. What more could you need?
Hopefully more bands follow their lead, because I couldn't care less how loud they want to release the album, if there's an alternative version to satisfy everyone.

Maybe if NIN were in their hey day now, but I highly doubt that very many artists will be saying, "Oh, that's a good idea, we should do what NIN did!"

[BlobVanDam]

Sounds like the perfect solution to me, and it looks like they're offering the "audiophile" version in MP3, FLAC, and 24bit/48Khz. What more could you need?
Hopefully more bands follow their lead, because I couldn't care less how loud they want to release the album, if there's an alternative version to satisfy everyone.

Maybe if NIN were in their hey day now, but I highly doubt that very many artists will be saying, "Oh, that's a good idea, we should do what NIN did!"

Maybe, but the idea is out there, and even if only smaller artists take up the idea for now, it may slowly gather traction as a new trend in releasing music.
Ok, that's nothing but wishful thinking at this point, but it's a start, right?

[TheGreatPretender]

Maybe, but the idea is out there, and even if only smaller artists take up the idea for now, it may slowly gather traction as a new trend reznor in releasing music.
Ok, that's nothing but wishful thinking at this point, but it's a start, right?

I guess I'm a pessimist when it comes to this issue. Or music industry in general. I mean, when people start saying how irrelevant rock music is these days, it's just depressing.

[BlobVanDam]

Maybe, but the idea is out there, and even if only smaller artists take up the idea for now, it may slowly gather traction as a new trend reznor in releasing music.
Ok, that's nothing but wishful thinking at this point, but it's a start, right?

I guess I'm a pessimist when it comes to this issue. Or music industry in general. I mean, when people start saying how irrelevant rock music is these days, it's just depressing.

I choose to cling on to my faint hope!

I got a new album this week (Fergie Frederiksen - Any Given Moment), and you have no idea how thrilled I was to hear a well mastered album for a change. It was so refreshing to hear a new album that wasn't compressed to hell. DR8/9 across the board, and also a great mix, and a pleasure to listen to. It's sad that this is an active fear every time I get a new album.

I also got Arc Angel - Harlequins of Light at the same time, and couldn't even make it through the first track before deleting it. It sounded so utterly dreadful to the point of being unlistenable, especially after hearing such a good sounding album before it. So I checked it, and surprise, surprise, it was DR5. I have never heard a DR5 that sounded good. It's not possible to have that little dynamic range, and sound pleasant.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't know if you listened to it or not, but if you did, or if you decide to, let me know what you think of Daft Punk's new album, Random Access Memories. I don't know if it's your type of music, but from listening to it, I felt like it was really well mastered.

[wolfking]

I got a new album this week (Fergie Frederiksen - Any Given Moment), and you have no idea how thrilled I was to hear a well mastered album for a change. It was so refreshing to hear a new album that wasn't compressed to hell. DR8/9 across the board, and also a great mix, and a pleasure to listen to. It's sad that this is an active fear every time I get a new album.

Good to hear you like it, looking forward to getting it myself.

[nikatapi]

I don't know if you listened to it or not, but if you did, or if you decide to, let me know what you think of Daft Punk's new album, Random Access Memories. I don't know if it's your type of music, but from listening to it, I felt like it was really well mastered.

Yeah i think it is one of the finest sounding records i've heard recently. Good punch and balance, really liked the sound.

[m0hawk]

I don't know if you listened to it or not, but if you did, or if you decide to, let me know what you think of Daft Punk's new album, Random Access Memories. I don't know if it's your type of music, but from listening to it, I felt like it was really well mastered.

Dude, probably the best master of an album I've ever heard. It's just out of this world. Even the crappier tracks are an absolute joy to just listen to.

[PixelDream]

Spot on about Random Access Memories. It's always noticeably quieter in comparison to most records I play, and then I just turn it up some more and BAM. 'Bring life back to music' is a great title for the first track.

[Groundhog]

I agree on Random Access Memory. Excellent sounding album that is a joy to listen to.

About the NIN album... It's a shame that it seems to be a missed opportunity. To label a DR6 album as audiophile. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Rb2-F86RW9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRb2-F86RW9E%26feature%3Dyoutu.be

[BlobVanDam]

I agree on Random Access Memory. Excellent sounding album that is a joy to listen to.

About the NIN album... It's a shame that it seems to be a missed opportunity. To label a DR6 album as audiophile. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Rb2-F86RW9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRb2-F86RW9E%26feature%3Dyoutu.be

DR6 audiophile?! I sure hope the regular version isn't more compressed, because DR6 is the absolute limit of what my ears can tolerate.
I was hoping for at least a DR8, which always sound good to me.

[seasonsinthesky]

I agree on Random Access Memory. Excellent sounding album that is a joy to listen to.

About the NIN album... It's a shame that it seems to be a missed opportunity. To label a DR6 album as audiophile. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Rb2-F86RW9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRb2-F86RW9E%26feature%3Dyoutu.be

DR6 audiophile?! I sure hope the regular version isn't more compressed, because DR6 is the absolute limit of what my ears can tolerate.
I was hoping for at least a DR8, which always sound good to me.

it's a bit judgemental to say you have a DR limit on your ears, isn't it? while useful, the rating doesn't tell you everything about what you're hearing, unfortunately. that's not really possible, especially for something that reduces an entire album of music to one number.

love that Ian Shepherd video, though. guy really knows his shit.

also: if you buy this on HDtracks, you get the iTunes bonuses in 24/48 lossless — including the long interview with 3 instrumental demos and a snippet of the "All Time Low" demo, along with the three remixes!

[BlobVanDam]

I agree on Random Access Memory. Excellent sounding album that is a joy to listen to.

About the NIN album... It's a shame that it seems to be a missed opportunity. To label a DR6 album as audiophile. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Rb2-F86RW9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRb2-F86RW9E%26feature%3Dyoutu.be

DR6 audiophile?! I sure hope the regular version isn't more compressed, because DR6 is the absolute limit of what my ears can tolerate.
I was hoping for at least a DR8, which always sound good to me.

it's a bit judgemental to say you have a DR limit on your ears, isn't it? while useful, the rating doesn't tell you everything about what you're hearing, unfortunately. that's not really possible, especially for something that reduces an entire album of music to one number.

I definitely agree that the number alone isn't a be-all measure of sound quality, but in my experience, that has been the upper limit, that is judged based on my ears first, not the DR.

I've heard DR6s that sounded really good, and others that sounded awful, so a number doesn't mean an album will sound bad, but I have never heard a DR5 that sounded good to me. I recently got an album that sounded unlistenable to me, so I checked it and it was DR5. I didn't check the DR first, then decide it sounded bad judged on the number. The ears are the decider, not just one number it reduces to.

I don't judge the album by the number. I judge the album by my ears first, then check the DR to judge how the numbers relate to how it sounds. I'm not a loudness war nut. I only recently started to measure the DR on my music, based on music I already had a strong judgement on for DR compression, so the number is just objective evidence for what I was already hearing, not proof in of itself.

[Kotowboy]

I'm not a total audiophile - I use some decent in ears for my iPhone and listen to music on my Monitors and still prefer CDs to MP3

But - If an album is loud but doesn't sound muddy and distorted - i'm fine with it.

The Enemy Inside sounds fine to *my* ears but the new Trivium stuff sounds muddy and fuzzy. The riffs are just lost in the fuzz.

[Thoughtspart3]

How often does an album with a Dynamic range of 5 or even 6 sound good? You can probably count them on one hand.  It is very rare, at least in my experience.  I appreciate you helping us not to become myopic and judge everything based on the DR number but I think you are minimizing the helpfulness of the DR # value.  It is a very good indicator of whether the album will sound good or if you are in for a headache.

   

[Ħ]

Prepare to have your jimmies rustled, audiophiles - I like not having to adjust the volume. Yes, I like the compression. It means that I can pick the volume I want and let it sit without having to fiddle with it again.

[7StringedBeast]

Prepare to have your jimmies rustled, audiophiles - I like not having to adjust the volume. Yes, I like the compression. It means that I can pick the volume I want and let it sit without having to fiddle with it again.

You don't really know what you are talking about here.  I have the HD tracks.  I set the volume, then I leave it.  It sounds great the whole way through, never having to touch it.  I really don't even know what you are trying to get at here.

[ariich]

Prepare to have your jimmies rustled, audiophiles - I like not having to adjust the volume. Yes, I like the compression. It means that I can pick the volume I want and let it sit without having to fiddle with it again.

You don't really know what you are talking about here.  I have the HD tracks.  I set the volume, then I leave it.  It sounds great the whole way through, never having to touch it.  I really don't even know what you are trying to get at here.

That's because, in the case of DT12, the mix in the first place is quite loud and in your face, and so the mastering on top was just unnecessary and ended up being detrimental. I agree, the HD tracks work perfectly because they still have that effect, but without the overall master being too compressed.

But some music does have huge dynamic range which is great in certain situations, like if I'm sitting at home focussing only on the music and don't care how loud it gets. Classical music is a great example of this. But then if I don't want the music to get too loud and disturb my girlfriend/neighbours, or I'm listening on my iPod while travelling and can't hear the quieter sections well, I do end up needing to play with the volume levels regularly.

[BlobVanDam]

Aside from orchestral recordings, which obviously have a lot of dynamics, I have never needed to adjust the volume knob while listening to an album because of having too good dynamics, and most of the music I listen to is older stuff with a DR of around 10-13.
Having intact dynamics doesn't mean you need to mess with the volume knob every 5 seconds, or that it goes from super soft to super loud, it just means it's not all smooshed together, and can breathe. You just need to crank it louder to begin with, and leave it. Easy.

And as ariich mentioned about DT12, most modern albums have plenty of compression on the individual tracks, so further compression isn't really necessary. The HDTracks version of DT12 is plenty loud and compressed as it is, and that's apparently the unmastered version? There is absolutely no reason that album needed to be compressed further, and no part of that album required me to touch the volume knob.

[Kotowboy]

I find myself turning the HD Tracks version of DT12 *up* if anything.

[BlobVanDam]

Me too.

The problem with overcompressed albums is that there's no good volume. If you turn it up, it destroys your ears and sounds like crap.
But if you turn it down to an acceptable volume, it still sounds too loud because it's so overcompressed, except it's somehow simultaneously too soft to hear any clarity, because it's basically white noise and you can't make out any detail.

Louder albums don't sound good loud, and they don't sound good soft. If the album has dynamics though, I can crank it, and it sounds loud and clear without hurting my ears, but I can have it low volume and still hear everything too.

[7StringedBeast]

Me too.

The problem with overcompressed albums is that there's no good volume. If you turn it up, it destroys your ears and sounds like crap.
But if you turn it down to an acceptable volume, it still sounds too loud because it's so overcompressed, except it's somehow simultaneously too soft to hear any clarity, because it's basically white noise and you can't make out any detail.

Louder albums don't sound good loud, and they don't sound good soft. If the album has dynamics though, I can crank it, and it sounds loud and clear without hurting my ears, but I can have it low volume and still hear everything too.

This is a great write up on why dynamic masters are better than brickwalled ones.