Marvel's Movie/TV Universe *SPOILERS*

[Ħ]

It feels like overcompensating. They want so badly not to be viewed as racist that they end up going to the extreme other end of the spectrum, where ethnic diversity is an absolute requirement. I'm 100% for ethnic diversity, but it doesn't need to be forced. The world is already learning that racism is wrong. We don't need Hollywood directors/producers saying "Ok make sure there's a minority in every scene so we don't get called racist."

Sorry to restart this discussion days later, but you're aware that there are a lot more minority people in every scene of your life than there are in the movies? This "forced" amount of diversity is still way off the real thing, which is near 30% of non-white people in America. If you make your movies way more white than the real world, that my friend really is racism, what else could it be? Why are created worlds whiter than our real world? It's a subconscious thing, but movies play an important part in shaping our consciousness, so it's a chicken and egg situation that spills out into the real world and makes people all sorts of fucked in the head.

And I don't really agree about increasing diversity being about making money in foreign markets, the rest of the world goes out to see white male American characters all the time, because your culture is global and we swallow it whole as universal even when it doesn't include us. It's just that minorities in the USA feel that they should include them, and for a good reason. People in India wear cowboy outfits, people in China have posters of Iron Man on the walls in their bedrooms. It's the other way around - you guys don't give a damn about foreign movies and cultures even when they're white and French, let alone Asian or Latin American. People in every country in the world see more American movies than movies made on their own country or even continent, and that's just the way it is.

Mora, you say that movies are racist because they mostly feature white people (at least the American hits.) I agree that movies clearly don't represent how people really are, even as they would be in fantastic situations. Almost nobody is as good-looking as movie protagonists, males don't need to be a solid 6' to be considered hot stuff, women don't need perfect skin and vivacious hairstyles every moment of the day, etc.. A high percentage of people are overweight (I forget if its the majority), but you never see two overweight people engaged in a spicy romance (unless its a romantic comedy...or it's the very premise of the movie, like Shallow Hal). And minorities are not well-represented in film, I'll give you that.

All that said...is it really as evil as you are making it sound? After all, a film is the director's piece of art. He can shape it as he wishes. If he wants to construct a white fantasy world, he has that prerogative as an artist. Take Lord  of the Rings, for instance, where no one is non-white. But a non-white person just wouldn't fit into the image Tolkein had for the universe, so Jackson didn't use any non-white actors.

Granted, I agree there is at least some element of racism. I do think that artists are not free to make any artistic statement they wish without fear of just condemnation from social activists. I just think you might be overstating your case. I could be wrong; it's an interesting topic and I don't know much about it, so I'm open to being corrected.

[TioJorge]

you guys don't give a damn about foreign movies and cultures even when they're white and French, let alone Asian or Latin American. People in every country in the world see more American movies than movies made on their own country or even continent, and that's just the way it is.

Boy, you gotta love that stouthearted speech and then just shitting it all away at the end with a massive generalization of an entire country and shoving your own assumptions onto them; moreover, blindly thinking that you're right. Then you go for gold and make a blanket statement about the entire world... This little quote here just made the rest of what you said totally defunct in my eyes. If you're gonna start preaching, try not to completely backtrack with another form of what seems to be pretty extreme discrimination against an entire country. Good stuff though; I don't have a dog in what seems to be a completely pointless fight, but I just had to point this bit out cause it's full of hypocrisy at its finest. Granted, I'm not trying to put down you personally, Mora; but that shit cray, for real, yo.

Anyway, I just got back from my weekly KKK meeting and we all agreed that Black Panther should be White Panther. Also I threw away all my beloved and highly praised Korean crime films because of a few foolish, deranged hackers. That's all! I gotta go find my house boy, that bathroom is NASTY.
 

[Metro]

https://marvel.com/news/tv/23866/mike_colter_to_star_as_luke_cage_in_marvels_aka_jessica_jones

[TioJorge]

Saw that earlier and thought that he should be white.


But srsly, I don't know the actor so I'm not affected at all besides the thought of "cool, looks like the character". I'll watch the show for the rest.

I started my viewing of Shield and I'm unimpressed and bored. I hope it gets better and from what I've heard it does but...thus far it's the same old network television BS that turned me off from TV entirely to begin with (well, it's not as bad as the laugh-track sitcoms but...it's nearing that league at this point, which is still only the third episode...starting the fourth now).

[bosk1]

I started my viewing of Shield and I'm unimpressed and bored. I hope it gets better and from what I've heard it does but...thus far it's the same old network television BS that turned me off from TV entirely to begin with (well, it's not as bad as the laugh-track sitcoms but...it's nearing that league at this point, which is still only the third episode...starting the fourth now).

Season 1 is kind of all over the place.  It starts to find its way toward the end of the season.  It seemed as thought it was just treading water and trying to find its way through most of the first season.  But IMO, once you get to the end of season 1, the last few episodes and the first half (so far) of season 2 are really good.  Stick with the bland stuff.  The basic character and plot info makes the season 2 payoff better if you slog through it.

[TioJorge]

Good stuff, that's what I've heard almost unanimously, so that's good to hear! I've had a few shows that start off slow and plodding and eventually become awesome, so I'm definitely hopeful and sticking with it! 

[425]

I started my viewing of Shield and I'm unimpressed and bored. I hope it gets better and from what I've heard it does but...thus far it's the same old network television BS that turned me off from TV entirely to begin with (well, it's not as bad as the laugh-track sitcoms but...it's nearing that league at this point, which is still only the third episode...starting the fourth now).

I watched Season 1 over the past month or so, and I considered stopping after the first three or four episodes, but around halfway through the season they just hit the gas hard and it becomes about 5 times as good and compelling as you would think it would be from the first few episodes.

[King Postwhore]

I started my viewing of Shield and I'm unimpressed and bored. I hope it gets better and from what I've heard it does but...thus far it's the same old network television BS that turned me off from TV entirely to begin with (well, it's not as bad as the laugh-track sitcoms but...it's nearing that league at this point, which is still only the third episode...starting the fourth now).

I watched Season 1 over the past month or so, and I considered stopping after the first three or four episodes, but around halfway through the season they just hit the gas hard and it becomes about 5 times as good and compelling as you would think it would be from the first few episodes.

Completely agree 425.

[The King in Crimson]

Saw that earlier and thought that he should be white.


But srsly, I don't know the actor so I'm not affected at all besides the thought of "cool, looks like the character". I'll watch the show for the rest.

I started my viewing of Shield and I'm unimpressed and bored. I hope it gets better and from what I've heard it does but...thus far it's the same old network television BS that turned me off from TV entirely to begin with (well, it's not as bad as the laugh-track sitcoms but...it's nearing that league at this point, which is still only the third episode...starting the fourth now).

The first half of season 1 sucks ass but supposedly it gets better. I can't verify that claim as I bailed halfway through apparently right before it changes from 'visual and auditory ambien' to actually entertaining.

[425]

I would say around Episode 10 ("The Bridge") and Episode 11 ("The Magical Place") are where it really starts to heat up. Also, the virtue of the early episodes is that they bring back a lot of things that seem like they're just one-and-done from those episodes in the later ones.

[ariich]

I don't really understand why so many people disliked the start of Agents of SHIELD. I found it very enjoyable from the get go. Sure it develops a LOT, but that's what happens in basically any TV show.

[BlackInk]

I dont think that the beginning of season 1 'sucks ass', or that it was necessarily bad. But it all felt a bit pointless. Lately it really feels as if the events of the show are actually relevant to the MCU, which in my opinion is mostly why it got so much better.

[Zantera]

I gave up maybe half way into S1, don't really remember. I thought it was very bland as a tv-show, and the only reason I watched was because of the tie-ins to the movies, but even that was just such a small part of it. I didn't find any of the characters compelling, it felt like a much less interesting Criminal Minds/CSI with a Sci-Fi element and nothing too exciting. I like Coulson as a minor character, but not enough that I want to see him as the main character.

I think in general, I just don't really like the "villain of the week"-format very much. I know they tried doing some longer story arcs in the background as well, but many episodes were just hard to sit through.

[ariich]

That's how a lot of shows start though, as it's a good way to establish characters and settings. It very much hasn't been the case for a while now.

[bosk1]

That's how a lot of shows start though, as it's a good way to establish characters and settings. It very much hasn't been the case for a while now.

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.  It's just that that doesn't appeal to some, and it makes the series a bit harder to latch onto early on, that's all.

[The King in Crimson]

With so much good tv out there I don't want to waste my time on a show that spends ten to twelve episodes spinning its wheels with weak writing and uncompelling characters. Many shows can fit in a season's worth of plot and character development in that amount of time so saying it's 'setting things up' is a bit of a cop out. Fringe did the same thing, spending half of the first season with mediocre monster of the week episodes before diving into good stuff, but Fringe also had Walter and some other decent characters to keep things from becoming too dull. Shield had no such crutch.

If it got better, then that's good, Fringe also got much, much better. Eventually. But in an age of Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Game of Thrones, and Hannibal, hell throw Walking Dead, Arrow, and Homeland on there too, being mediocre at best is not a saving grace IMO.

[BlackInk]

hell throw Walking Dead, Arrow ... on there too.

No. None of that should be anywhere near the same category of 'good' as Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, or Hannibal. Agents of Shield is a good show, but does not belong there either, not by a long shot.

[The King in Crimson]

Well, that's why I put them where I did, off in their own separate little list.

Okay, okay, I'll agree with Arrow. I do enjoy the show, but mostly for its kinetic energy and relentless pacing if not necessarily for its acting or writing.

The Walking Dead, on the other hand, at least has a Shane or a Daryl or a Ricktator around to keep things interesting even when it's mining the full depths of its own shittiness. It may not be a great show but I'm usually entertained.

Yes, even during Season 2.

[ariich]

That's how a lot of shows start though, as it's a good way to establish characters and settings. It very much hasn't been the case for a while now.

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.  It's just that that doesn't appeal to some, and it makes the series a bit harder to latch onto early on, that's all.

Oh I know, I just find it surprising that so many people don't stick with shows for a bit longer to give them time to settle in.

[bosk1]

Off-topic for a second (still on the Marvel topic, but not on the AoS topic):  I was thinking about Iron Man this morning.  After Age of Ultron, there are no more Iron Man movies currently scheduled.  Is Iron Man done as a hero after Age of Ultron?  I could perhaps see that being the case.  Stark is a basket case and basically hung it up.  Perhaps he is putting on the armor one more time simply because he has to to stop his own creation, and will be done after that.  But we know Robert Downey Jr. only recently signed a new contract for more movie appearances.  So I am just wondering out loud whether he will only do small roles as Tony Stark with no more Iron Man, if he will only be Iron Man in other movies with no more Iron Man solo movies, or if Marvel will actually shoot more Iron Man movies that they will weave into the schedule, but simply could not announce them beforehand because RDJ was not yet under contract.  Speculation?

[Zantera]

While I agree that sometimes shows have a slow start, I can kinda force myself through that if I know that something good lies ahead. Take shows like Sopranos or The Wire. I've heard good things, wasn't initially getting the hype, but knowing they are critically acclaimed shows with universal praise, it makes it easier to endure, and finally understand why they are so loved. But with a show like Agents of SHIELD, that motivation isn't there. The show is almost universally panned, with the exception of a group of loyal fans who love the show, and the ratings have gone down more and more with each episode.

[ariich]

The show is almost universally panned

Er, no it isn't.

the ratings have gone down more and more with each episode.

Er, no they haven't.

[bosk1]

The show is almost universally panned

Er, no it isn't.

the ratings have gone down more and more with each episode.

Er, no they haven't.

Yeah, this.  Zantera, not sure where you are getting your info. 

[ariich]

If we go back to halfway through season 1, when Jimmy stopped watching, then yeah that might be an accurate description at that time. But pretty much everyone who has stuck with it says that it's a very good show, and ratings have stabilised and started to climb again. (EDIT: not that overnight ratings really mean much anyway)

[hefdaddy42]

Off-topic for a second (still on the Marvel topic, but not on the AoS topic):  I was thinking about Iron Man this morning.  After Age of Ultron, there are no more Iron Man movies currently scheduled.  Is Iron Man done as a hero after Age of Ultron?  I could perhaps see that being the case.  Stark is a basket case and basically hung it up.  Perhaps he is putting on the armor one more time simply because he has to to stop his own creation, and will be done after that.  But we know Robert Downey Jr. only recently signed a new contract for more movie appearances.  So I am just wondering out loud whether he will only do small roles as Tony Stark with no more Iron Man, if he will only be Iron Man in other movies with no more Iron Man solo movies, or if Marvel will actually shoot more Iron Man movies that they will weave into the schedule, but simply could not announce them beforehand because RDJ was not yet under contract.  Speculation?

Downey was under contract for Avengers 2 & 3.  The contract was definitely renegotiated because Avengers 3 is now 3 & 4, and also for appearing in Captain America 3.  I highly doubt that those appearances will be as Stark only and not having him suit up as Iron Man, although I suppose anything is possible.

Downey also said that he would definitely be open to appearing on Agents of SHIELD (to bring the conversation back, lol), as has Jeremy Renner (Hawkeye), which would be badass.  And apparently the show will tie into Age of Ultron, although not in as major a way as it tied into The Winter Soldier.

Beyond that?  Who can say about Downey?  I imagine he can write his own ticket at this point.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I did not know the specifics.  But even with that added info, while he could suit up in the Avengers movies themselves, it still does not clarify whether he will suit up in any solo films.  Personally, I would love to see another couple of IM films.  But given where Marvel has gone with Tony's headspace as a character, I could see if he just sort of retired and only put on the suit when an emergency arose (the Avengers films) instead.  But it would be a bummer if he was kept limited to that, especially since the "All Hail The King" One Shot teased a new Mandarin storyline.

[Zantera]

I mean the show started off around 12-13 million viewers and has dropped to 5 or so. Even if you look at S2, every episode pretty much dropped viewers until the 5th or 6th episode where there was a slight increase, but still far below the numbers of S1.

As for how the show has been received, I think the numbers really say a lot. There are many big Marvel fans out there, and the movies sell tickets like butter, but when even the fans can't be arsed to watch the show anymore, that says something. And yes, I guess 5 million is still an okay number of viewers, but considering it started off at almost 13, that drop is still quite huge.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, I did not know the specifics.  But even with that added info, while he could suit up in the Avengers movies themselves, it still does not clarify whether he will suit up in any solo films.  Personally, I would love to see another couple of IM films.  But given where Marvel has gone with Tony's headspace as a character, I could see if he just sort of retired and only put on the suit when an emergency arose (the Avengers films) instead.  But it would be a bummer if he was kept limited to that, especially since the "All Hail The King" One Shot teased a new Mandarin storyline.

There are, at this time, no plans for any more IM solo films.  But Downey has said "Never say never," so it's not like there is no possibility for more.

Personally, I don't think there will be any more.  Which is one reason we are seeing films for new characters like Ant-Man, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel.  At some point, the current crew will not want to participate anymore, so better to have new characters to take their places in the public eye.

[bosk1]

In principle, I do not disagree.  But I guess I have seen IM as kind of the core of the MCU and just felt that, no matter which other characters came and went, you would probably still have Iron Man as the one constant.  And, again, with the Mandarin tease, it seems like a wasted opportunity to let that drop.  But, c'est la vie.

Oh, and I meant to comment on what you said about Renner.  Didn't know about him wanting to make an appearance on AoS.  But he did make an appearance at the 49ers/Seahawks game on Thanksgiving and was trying to fire up the crowd.  And it was awesome.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, it may be too much to say he "wants to."  He said that he would be willing to appear, which would be awesome.  Especially since, in the comics, agent Morse wound up marrying Hawkeye.

I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point, Downey takes on an "elder statesman" role in the MCU, continuing to appear as Stark without actually putting on the suit for more adventures.  They could technically move Rhodey over to suit up as Iron Man at that point; he wore the armor as Iron Man in the comics for an extended period at one point.

[TioJorge]

On the topic of AOS, I'm just the type of person that if a show doesn't immediately hook me, it takes a lot in me to keep watching. I'm not at all a TV-goer and don't even own a TV; even for a show like Breaking Bad that had me from the get-go, I still took a few weeks to actually become an avid fan who watched episode-by-episode. With a show like this, if I'm not invested in the story, which I'm really not all that much, then it's tough for me to watch and wait. But it's a HUGE help that I don't have to wait for weekly episodes, and quite honestly I wouldn't even give this show the time of day if I did have to wait for the episodes. I'm just not THAT invested, and if I'm not invested or interested, I'll forget what happens during that week. I have too many other interests that'll dwarf this one.

Anyway, I like the show and it does pick up pretty quickly, but I have a feeling it's going to drop off my radar. I suppose it's just not for me. I don't dislike it, but for a comic-book fiend like myself, it feels like TV-oriented-comic material...for the non-comic fans, if that makes any sense. It's just quite predictable and by-the-numbers when it comes to storytelling, acting and production. Even for the super-hero movies, it takes a lot for me to get excited because I just grew up with comics that do what the movies try to do but the comics did it (and still do, to a lesser extent) so much better. I suppose it's the 'let's attract the masses' mindset that really brings it down a notch for me. I'm not panning the show because it's great when compared to most everything else on TV, which I view as fodder; but I can't see the show being anything but a nice way to kill my boredom. That's totally fine though, if I have some downtime and have nothing else to watch (which at this time of year I really don't), it's a great way to spend a lazy afternoon/night.

Sadly though, it's exactly what I thought it'd be; but perhaps S2 will change my thoughts on the show, but I'm sure as hell not gonna shell any money out for the blu/dvd or buy a TV anytime soon, so hopefully it comes to Netflix within the next year or so. I gave it a shot though! I'll continue watching, but it'll be in spurts of months to both wait for S2 on Netflix and because, well, I just don't care that much.

--

On the topic of IM, I'm pretty sure he's winding down and is going to be making appearances suited up until the end of the Infinity saga (Avengers '3'). After that, I could definitely see him stepping down but still making cameos, showing up as Stark but not suiting up, etc. It's tough to tell with that guy though, Downey is pretty unpredictable. Oddly enough, despite the fact that I really love Cheadle as an actor, I've had nothing but indifference towards him as Rhodey. I've not specifically disliked his performance, but he's just so god damn bland that I don't care whether he's there or not. Downey and his interactions have felt so forced and so fabricated to me, and I can't quite pinpoint why. So I REALLY do not want to see him as 'the next IM' because that'd kill it for me, totally and completely. It'd turn into a franchise that I wouldn't go to the movies for but would catch on On Demand or even Netflix way down the line and I don't want that. I'm hoping for a new face, someone unheard of.

[bosk1]

On the topic of IM, I'm pretty sure he's winding down and is going to be making appearances suited up until the end of the Infinity saga (Avengers '3'). After that, I could definitely see him stepping down but still making cameos, showing up as Stark but not suiting up, etc. It's tough to tell with that guy though, Downey is pretty unpredictable. Oddly enough, despite the fact that I really love Cheadle as an actor, I've had nothing but indifference towards him as Rhodey. I've not specifically disliked his performance, but he's just so god damn bland that I don't care whether he's there or not. Downey and his interactions have felt so forced and so fabricated to me, and I can't quite pinpoint why. So I REALLY do not want to see him as 'the next IM' because that'd kill it for me, totally and completely. It'd turn into a franchise that I wouldn't go to the movies for but would catch on On Demand or even Netflix way down the line and I don't want that. I'm hoping for a new face, someone unheard of.

Since Mora isn't here to point out that you are a racist, I'll just stand in for her and say that you most likely feel that way because he is Black.

[TioJorge]

Damn it. 

It's true. I really need an albino in that role.

[hefdaddy42]

Holy crap

[bosk1]

Best synopsis I've seen so far:  https://comicsalliance.com/agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d-season-2-recap-episode-10-what-they-become/