Haken v. new single Nightingale (April 26)

[jammindude]

I have another take. But this is more just throwing spaghetti into the think tank. (Mixing metaphors for humors sake)

As I listened to the mountain, vector, and virus today at work, I feel like it’s possible that the cockroach king is the doctor. But he is someone who compromised his principles to achieve a comfortable life and scientific truth.

Think about it. We’ve all seen those experiments that prove that the majority of humankind can be desensitized into hurting their fellow man. While at the same time, the majority of us claim that we would never do such a thing. The denial that that side of ourselves exists is exactly what leaves us open for the possibility of it happening. We’re looking at a man who may be came from a very poor background but the rags to riches and the chasing of the “nuclear family“ caused him to start desensitize himself when performing experiments. It may have started small, but slowly graduated into experimenting on people. then, much later in life, he finds that his life is empty. Possibly his family has left him. In the pursuit of a comfortable and happy life he left himself so devoid of love and empathy that he ends up alone in the end. Possibly at the very end he himself is in a hospital with no one to love him and maybe even doctors experimenting on him.

[NoseofNicko]

Just a question, anyone else’s jewel case CD version of Virus has a crack in the back under the InsideOut logo? Just wondering because I got 2 copies and both have that same exact crack.

Bump. Please help appease my OCD.

[Revenge319]

I have a theory of my own on the story of Virus. Whether it's accurate or not, I don't know. I could go more into detail but I'd be here a while if I did, so I'll keep it brief.
Simply put, after transforming Patient #21 into a cockroach-human hybrid, Dr. Rex begins doing the same experiment to more patients. At some point, however, the patients begin to get angry with Dr. Rex and start an uprising (the phrase "call to arms" is mentioned a couple times). They succeed, and they overthrow Dr. Rex. He reflects on everything he's done and eventually dies while doing so.


On a side note, I saw someone mention a really interesting theory that states that Dr. Rex was the fisherman from Aquarius and has been haunted by his guilt in being responsible for the mermaid's death.

[me7]

Just a question, anyone else’s jewel case CD version of Virus has a crack in the back under the InsideOut logo? Just wondering because I got 2 copies and both have that same exact crack.

Bump. Please help appease my OCD.

I feel your pain. I would love to. But I got the mediabook.

[NoseofNicko]

Just a question, anyone else’s jewel case CD version of Virus has a crack in the back under the InsideOut logo? Just wondering because I got 2 copies and both have that same exact crack.

Bump. Please help appease my OCD.

I feel your pain. I would love to. But I got the mediabook.

Thanks for replying.

I wanted the mediabook but it wasn’t available at the local store I ordered from. I hate jewel cases, they rarely come without cracks.

[Ben_Jamin]

I have another take. But this is more just throwing spaghetti into the think tank. (Mixing metaphors for humors sake)

As I listened to the mountain, vector, and virus today at work, I feel like it’s possible that the cockroach king is the doctor. But he is someone who compromised his principles to achieve a comfortable life and scientific truth.

Think about it. We’ve all seen those experiments that prove that the majority of humankind can be desensitized into hurting their fellow man. While at the same time, the majority of us claim that we would never do such a thing. The denial that that side of ourselves exists is exactly what leaves us open for the possibility of it happening. We’re looking at a man who may be came from a very poor background but the rags to riches and the chasing of the “nuclear family“ caused him to start desensitize himself when performing experiments. It may have started small, but slowly graduated into experimenting on people. then, much later in life, he finds that his life is empty. Possibly his family has left him. In the pursuit of a comfortable and happy life he left himself so devoid of love and empathy that he ends up alone in the end. Possibly at the very end he himself is in a hospital with no one to love him and maybe even doctors experimenting on him.

The Cockroach King experiments on the Doctor...

Haha...I really wish I had the physical cd with me now.

[Ben_Jamin]

I have a theory of my own on the story of Virus. Whether it's accurate or not, I don't know. I could go more into detail but I'd be here a while if I did, so I'll keep it brief.
Simply put, after transforming Patient #21 into a cockroach-human hybrid, Dr. Rex begins doing the same experiment to more patients. At some point, however, the patients begin to get angry with Dr. Rex and start an uprising (the phrase "call to arms" is mentioned a couple times). They succeed, and they overthrow Dr. Rex. He reflects on everything he's done and eventually dies while doing so.


On a side note, I saw someone mention a really interesting theory that states that Dr. Rex was the fisherman from Aquarius and has been haunted by his guilt in being responsible for the mermaid's death.

I would like to hear your theory. Even if it's long. I am gonna do mine when I get Virus, typing up the Vector one once I find my cd booklet.

[Revenge319]

I would like to hear your theory. Even if it's long. I am gonna do mine when I get Virus, typing up the Vector one once I find my cd booklet.

Alright, here's my theory in full:

After doing the whole human/cockroach mutation experiment on Patient 21, Dr. Rex is able to move on to more patients in the mental institution and do the same experiments on them. Perhaps due to a messiah complex, he thinks he's doing the patients a favor by doing this to them, as if he's their savior. This also makes me believe that Dr. Rex is the Cockroach King. However, as more patients become mutated, they begin to feel hopeless (see Invasion and Carousel), but also begin to get angry with Dr. Rex (see Prosthetic and The Strain). Dr. Rex has effectively risen to power with the amount of people he's mutated, but based on songs like Prosthetic and Canary Yellow (specifically the phrase "call to arms" in CY), the patients seem to want to defy him.

In Messiah Complex, it first goes into detail about Dr. Rex's, well, messiah complex. Considering an "ivory tower" is a metaphor to describe a place where people are cut off from the rest of the world, and the fourth movement being called "The Sect", it's easy to guess that this is Dr. Rex transforming the patients for the purpose of serving him. And as mentioned before, he thinks he's doing something good for the patients by doing all these experiments (see Canary Yellow, specifically the lines "You try to save the world, when it’s you that needs help"). In "A Glutton for Punishment", the phrase "call to arms" appears again, implying that the patients are ready to revolt against Dr. Rex at any point now. "Marigold" seems to go into how life is inside the "ivory tower" is, but this movement would also be where the patients finally rise up against Dr. Rex. "The Sect" represents an inner conflict within Dr. Rex (perhaps during the uprising), wondering if he can ever be redeemed for his actions, based on lines such as "Riches back to rags...", "Ostracized by the power of the masses...", and "If humility comes to humble me in my time of need...". I'm a bit unsure what exactly occurs in "Ectobius Rex", but one thing seems clear to me: The patients have conquered Dr. Rex, and he realizes he no longer has control over the mutated patients; he is no longer the Cockroach King. As such, he decides to completely abandon the entire institution before it's too late; he's jumping from his tower of ivory, so to speak.

Only Stars is about Dr. Rex reflecting on everything he's done. He's now far from the messiah he thought he was, and he seems to die while reflecting on this ("As I'm summoned hither / One last breath, I wither"). There's some sounds in the background, some which sound vaguely like insects (representing the cockroaches escaping from his rule) and some other crackling-like noises, which I interpret as the institution, his "ivory tower", being destroyed.

[Dedalus]

Still don't fully understand what or who the Coackroach King is. I guess his name is Ectobius Rex ...

Edit: Ectobius is ofc a species of coackroaches 

Ectobius is a genus of  yellowish cockroaches and rex is king in Latin. So, it makes sense.

[Implode]

Finally commenting on this. It took me a bit more than three listens for it to finally click and for me to finally start enjoying the album properly. There are some really amazing ideas; unfortunately all my favorites parts are those that are fleeting. That said, this is still a solid album and a great follow up to Vector. Was going through my pictures from all the shows they did in Chicago. I'm missing them for sure.

[jammindude]

The patient experiments on the doctor? I never got that from any of this. Although I admit I have not read all the lyrics.

I have to say that I’m definitely suffering from confirmation bias. For seven years the original cockroach King has always been to me “self”, or “ego” if you will.  When I thought the story was more about the doctor rising to power because of his own obsession with self and ego (that is, the cockroach king inside him...or inside all of us) it seemed to be more in harmony with my original thought about the original song. But if they made it an actual person and not the ego that lives inside each one of us, that would kind of suck the wind out of the original concept of the song for me

[ariich]

The patient experiments on the doctor? I never got that from any of this. Although I admit I have not read all the lyrics.

I have to say that I’m definitely suffering from confirmation bias. For seven years the original cockroach King has always been to me “self”, or “ego” if you will.  When I thought the story was more about the doctor rising to power because of his own obsession with self and ego (that is, the cockroach king inside him...or inside all of us) it seemed to be more in harmony with my original thought about the original song. But if they made it an actual person and not the ego that lives inside each one of us, that would kind of suck the wind out of the original concept of the song for me

It's both, just like the original song is both (i.e. a literal story as a metaphor/allegory for greed, obsession, etc.

[cramx3]

Ready to do my Virus track rankings:

Messiah Complex
Carousel
The Strain
Prosthetic
Canary Yellow
Invasion
Only Stars

with really Only Stars being the track that I'm not a fan of.  Very strong album and consistent which was my problem with Vector just kind of dying off after Veil. 

[CrimsonSunrise]

Ready to do my Virus track rankings:

Messiah Complex
Carousel
The Strain
Prosthetic
Canary Yellow
Invasion
Only Stars

with really Only Stars being the track that I'm not a fan of.  Very strong album and consistent which was my problem with Vector just kind of dying off after Veil.

As of right now... mine and yours are very similar.

Messiah Complex
Carousel
Prosthetic
The Strain
Invasion
Canary Yellow
Only Stars

[Ben_Jamin]

The patient experiments on the doctor? I never got that from any of this. Although I admit I have not read all the lyrics.

I have to say that I’m definitely suffering from confirmation bias. For seven years the original cockroach King has always been to me “self”, or “ego” if you will.  When I thought the story was more about the doctor rising to power because of his own obsession with self and ego (that is, the cockroach king inside him...or inside all of us) it seemed to be more in harmony with my original thought about the original song. But if they made it an actual person and not the ego that lives inside each one of us, that would kind of suck the wind out of the original concept of the song for me

That's a neat takeaway from the song.

Cockroach King, now makes sense to me, oddly enough. It's so amazing just how much they expanded the concept and story of the Cockroach King as told in the song.

"Tantalized by the cockroach and its promise
I fantasised about soaring with golden wings
"Flying with gold wings"

Hypnotized by the cockroach and its promise
I was compromised by a treasure
That was fit for fools
"Lured by a fool's gold"

Blinded by a fickle fortune
Diamonds in my eyes
Blinded by the grand illusion
Golden wings to fly

The hunter draws closer to its prey

--- Right off that bat we get why the Cockroach King became his namesake, his fascination of the concept of a cockroach, of having it's golden wings to fly. And his lust for that illusion, throwing away all his values, blinded by greed to acquire his dream.



But honestly, now the more I analyze Cockroach King, the more I am seeing it to be about Cannabis and the Grand Illusion of it being a money maker giving you Golden Wings to fly. But it leads down a promise of deceit. The Cockroach King is the main street dealer, and sits upon his throne and the insects multiply meaning the many other things he has him selling, because of the diamond eyes.

I realize how far fetched it is though.

[Evermind]

Ready for a big oof but can't help it really

The Strain
Invasion
Only Stars
Canary Yellow
Prosthetic
Carousel
Messiah Complex

[jammindude]

The patient experiments on the doctor? I never got that from any of this. Although I admit I have not read all the lyrics.

I have to say that I’m definitely suffering from confirmation bias. For seven years the original cockroach King has always been to me “self”, or “ego” if you will.  When I thought the story was more about the doctor rising to power because of his own obsession with self and ego (that is, the cockroach king inside him...or inside all of us) it seemed to be more in harmony with my original thought about the original song. But if they made it an actual person and not the ego that lives inside each one of us, that would kind of suck the wind out of the original concept of the song for me

That's a neat takeaway from the song.

Cockroach King, now makes sense to me, oddly enough. It's so amazing just how much they expanded the concept and story of the Cockroach King as told in the song.

"Tantalized by the cockroach and its promise
I fantasised about soaring with golden wings
"Flying with gold wings"

Hypnotized by the cockroach and its promise
I was compromised by a treasure
That was fit for fools
"Lured by a fool's gold"

Blinded by a fickle fortune
Diamonds in my eyes
Blinded by the grand illusion
Golden wings to fly

The hunter draws closer to its prey

--- Right off that bat we get why the Cockroach King became his namesake, his fascination of the concept of a cockroach, of having it's golden wings to fly. And his lust for that illusion, throwing away all his values, blinded by greed to acquire his dream.



But honestly, now the more I analyze Cockroach King, the more I am seeing it to be about Cannabis and the Grand Illusion of it being a money maker giving you Golden Wings to fly. But it leads down a promise of deceit. The Cockroach King is the main street dealer, and sits upon his throne and the insects multiply meaning the many other things he has him selling, because of the diamond eyes.

I realize how far fetched it is though.

I wasn’t sure I wanted to touch this, but I’ve honestly thought something very similar ever since the song came out. To expand on my earlier idea, I find many of the themes to be very closely related to ideas of addiction and overcoming that addiction. I know the common line of thought is that pot is not addictive... But you can Count me in as one of those very small percentage of people who were deeply addicted to it. I had a terrible time trying to break free. But I’ve been off of it now for A little over 25 years.

The dig about “toking  on the roach of fallacy“ and then making a noise like he’s hitting on a joint really sold the idea for me.

[NoseofNicko]

Any of you posting have the regular/jewel case version of the Virus CD?

[cramx3]

Any of you posting have the regular/jewel case version of the Virus CD?

I think you should post this in their discord channel, facebook group, or subreddit instead of here again... I bought mine digitally on amazon and you've asked a few times without response so I don't think anyone has the same issue in this discussion.  Broaden your search in other areas if you are that concerned.

[NoseofNicko]

But I’m pretty sure some people here mentioned getting the regular/jewel case version of the CD, I don’t understand why they can’t answer to my very simple question.

I’m gonna ask on reddit though.

[erwinrafael]

Whoever thought that mixing the chorus of Puzzle Box with an almost comedic drum beat is a good idea needs to have his ears checked.

It fits the theme of the song. It represents the patients frustration of trying to solve and understand The Good Doctor" and his plans. It's central to convey that across to the listener. That's how you use music to tell a story.

Sure, it makes sense conceptually. Doesn't mean it sounds good.

[jammindude]

I’m sure anyone who got the jewel case version would have answered. Just most of us didn’t. Too many people in these parts either got the vinyl combo or the digipak.

We weren’t really ignoring you, just figured it was a waste to have 10 people lining up to say “nope, I didn’t”.

[NoseofNicko]

I thought you were one of the ones who had the jewel case version so I was slightly annoyed that you didn’t answer. My bad.

[Nel]

As with Vector, I never even knew there was a jewel case version. When Vector came out, I only ever saw the digipak at the store. I ordered Virus from Amazon and that showed up as a digipak too.

[NoseofNicko]

The 2CD digipak is the limited deluxe edition. I wanted that but unfortunately the store didn’t have it.

[jammindude]

I thought you were one of the ones who had the jewel case version so I was slightly annoyed that you didn’t answer. My bad.

No worries. 

[IDontNotDoThings]

My gf & I were discussing our theories for the story of Vector/Virus a few days ago, & I think we agreed on this theory.

Clear / The Good Doctor (Doctor POV)- The Patient is admitted to a mental institution where Dr. Rex subjects him to electroshock therapy. It's unknown why The Patient is there in the first place, & it seems his own recollection is merely "vague memories of a caved-in broken life". Dr. Rex hopes that the electricity will help bring him back to being a normal member of society (spoiler: it doesn't).
Puzzle Box (Patient POV) - Amidst all the abuse The Patient is suffering, he struggles to piece together the events of his past, & his confusion only makes him feel more hopeless.
Veil (Alternating POV) - The Patient gives into his hopelessness, desperately pleading to be saved by Dr. Rex's experiments. Dr. Rex tries to reassure The Patient that he's safe with him, which gives The Patient a false sense of trust. The Patient then begs Dr. Rex to do whatever it takes to get him back to normal, & so he does...
Nil By Mouth / Host (Patient POV) - Dr. Rex experiments on The Patient further, subjecting him to a machine that can rewrite The Patient's DNA. The Patient thinks that it will be used to fix his brain, but unbeknownst to him, Dr. Rex has no real intention of helping him, & merely wants a test subject for his experiment. The Patient realises this as the machine's process is taking place, which fills him with even more hopelessness than he had before.
A Cell Divides (Alternating POV) - Unexpectedly, The Patient gruesomely transforms into a cockroach, fulfilling Dr. Rex's wildest dreams. Dr. Rex is proud of his creation, & feeling satisfied, he covers up all evidence of the experiment & goes back to work.

10 years later...

Prosthetic (Patient POV) - Out of the rubble, The Patient is finally discovered. He is then recovered back to human form by the scientists who discovered him, but as soon as he's saved, The Patient turns on the scientists & uses their own technology to overpower them. The Patient is angry about what happened to him, & he wants revenge.
Invasion (Patient POV) - Once alone, The Patient uses his stolen technology to develop a virus that will gruesomely transform & then kill anyone who it's exposed to. He plans to use this on Dr. Rex.
Carousel (Patient POV) - The Patient hunts for Dr. Rex. Along the way, he questions his own motives, but ultimately decides that this is what he needs to do to exact his revenge.
The Strain (Patient POV) - The Patient finally finds Dr. Rex, & seeing his face again triggers a flashback of the hopelessness he felt while he was under Dr. Rex's control.
Canary Yellow (Alternating POV) - The Patient then confronts Dr. Rex, telling him that he's the one that really needs psychological help for all his sadistic tendencies. Dr. Rex retorts by exclaiming that The Patient would've lived a boring normal life if it weren't for his experiments. This enrages The Patient, & he injects Dr. Rex with his virus.
Messiah Complex (Alternating POV) - After seeing what he's done, The Patient feels powerful for overcoming the person who put him through so much misery. He thinks of himself as if he's in an ivory tower. He watches Dr. Rex scream "How did I fail, my holy grail?" as he transforms into a cockroach. The Patient taunts him, saying "Careful what you wish for" as he continues to watch Dr. Rex's own experiment used against him. Finally, Dr. Rex dies from the virus, which The Patient celebrates at first, but then Dr. Rex's words from earlier resonate within him, that he wouldn't be who he is without his experiments. He thinks that for Dr. Rex to really die, his experiment must die too, & so he kills himself, jumping from his tower of ivory.
Only Stars (Patient POV) - In his final moments, The Patient reflects on the trauma of his lifetime as he dies, still feeling the anguish that he did back then, but knowing that it will all be over soon.

[Mladen]

I'm a big fan of Vector but I've never looked into the storyline. Now that Virus is finally out, I decided to start following the narative. Your interpretation helps quite a bit. 

[Elite]

The ‘story’ isn’t literal and had never been confirmed, so anything you see is basically fan interpretations.

[mike099]

Ready for a big oof but can't help it really

The Strain
Invasion
Only Stars
Canary Yellow
Prosthetic
Carousel
Messiah Complex

Actually this ranking is about what mine would be.

[Elite]

Puzzle Box
Host
The Strain
Invasion
Messiah Complex
A Cell Divides
Canary Yellow
Prosthetic
The Good Doctor
Nil by Mouth
Carousel
Veil
Only Stars *
(Clear)**

This ranking is subject to change

Basically ranking them as if they were standalone songs, despite me listening to albums in full most of the time. This explains some of the admittedly weird placements. Veil, for example, has some fantastic parts, but as a song it suffers enormously from that jarring transition.

* in context of the album it’s better than this ranking would suggest. As a standalone song though.. not really.
** kind of pointless to rank this one as it’s only really an intro and nothing more than that.

[ariich]

Damn Rich, that's so close to my ranking. I'd just put A Cell Divides lower and The Good Doctor higher.

[Mladen]

The ‘story’ isn’t literal and had never been confirmed, so anything you see is basically fan interpretations.

There must be some sort of a story, though, right? Otherwise there wouldn't be as many musical references.

[Elite]

Likely, but a lot of it is figurative; it’s not like form example SFAM where the lyrics tell you exactly what’s happening.

[Elite]

Damn Rich, that's so close to my ranking. I'd just put A Cell Divides lower and The Good Doctor higher.