NBA thread 2016-17 v. The Age of The Land?

[Cable]

I've watched both "games." Golden State is a class above Cleveland, and Cleveland is REALLY, REALLY good. It's unbelievable. I still think Cleveland will win a couple, but they have a decision to make. They are getting run out of the gym trying to play the style of ball GS does. If I were them, I'd start to get a little brash and revert to some harder fouls and defense. Not playing dirty, but coping an attitude and shoving guys, getting them pissed off and rattled. It's the only way they have a shot, IMO.

Channel the Pistons and Knicks from back in the day, slow the game way down, pound on KD and Steph, make Klay beat you, and deliver punishing shots anytime a GS player goes into the paint. They have to limit GS possessions and send a message. I fully expect Cleveland to do something like this next game.

Ty Lue is young, but he was a heady player, and is a good coach. He'll put something together. It'll be up to the Cavs to stop trying to be GS and be something different. If they do, and it rattles GS, they can get back into the series. But if the Cavs let Game 3 go, might as well just play H-O-R-S-E in game 4, because it will be over. The Cavs need to play old school.

I actually think Cleveland needs to work on their offense rather than their defense, get gsw to run through screens, get those legs tired on defense. I haven't watched all the games but from what I've seen Cleveland is running mostly 1 on 1, driving through the lane and trying to hit the open guy. You can still do that but moving the ball around for a 10 seconds, trying to get switches and more favorable matchups.

As much as I'm a defence honk, you are right. For one, GSW can only be moderately slowed down. Especially with KD being added since last year's finals. But I think CLE is taking way too many dumb shots. I have watched chunks of game 1 and 2, and I just siting James here; the commentators made a point of his in the paint points in a game's first half. Then in the second half, I'm watching threes being chucked to meet GSW just icing a bunch of threes.

[KevShmev]

The value and greatness of James was never more apparent than it was just now.  He plays like a beast for the first 10 and change of the 1st quarter and they are leading by 2. Then he goes to the bench for a breather at the end of the quarter and GS rips off 10 straight.  These would be 40-point blowouts without James.

[Azyiu]

The Cavs played MUCH better at home in the first half, but they still don't close each qtr as well as they should be... thanks to Zaza's idiotic play toward the end of the 2nd qtr, or else the Cavs could've been down by 10 or 11pts at the half.

[King Postwhore]

That finger roll layup was very cool to see.

James can't do it alone.  He's been great tonight and it might not be enough.

[jingle.boy]

James can't do it alone.  He's been great tonight and it might not be enough.

I'm getting a sense of deja vu.

He was godly last year and they still barely won. I am not sure it would be enough this year.  GS is just too loaded.

LeBron goes for 29/11/14, and it's like, "Not good enough. He needed 40/15/20 for them to even have a chance."

Seems to be a recurring theme.

[lonestar]

Boom.

[Azyiu]

KD!!! I think he just locked up the Finals MVP award

[KevShmev]

James and Irving were mostly dynamite, but it's hard to win when the rest of your team stinks up the joint. Kevin Love missing that shot 4 inches from the basket with just over two to go was the worst.  If he makes that, they are up 8. Alas, this will be a fitting end to the worst playoffs ever.

[Azyiu]

James and Irving were mostly dynamite, but it's hard to win when the rest of your team stinks up the joint. Kevin Love missing that shot 4 inches from the basket with just over two to go was the worst.  If he makes that, they are up 8. Alas, this will be a fitting end to the worst playoffs ever.

As a whole I thought the Cavs stepped up, but their problem is they couldn't close out quarters. As seen in Game 3, they kept giving up points in the final minute or so in each qtr, except for the end of 3rd qtr. You cannot give the Dubs even the slightest of opportunity to score, if you intend to beat them.

[Cool Chris]

As a Seattleite, I am all for Durant ditching that shit hole OKC for a title and leaving them with nothing.

[black_biff_stadler]

I keep forgetting that I should resent OKC for them trying to steal the Hornets post-Katrina.

[Azyiu]

A sweep on Friday could "cost" the Warriors roughly $22M.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19565518/nba-playoffs-warriors-sweep-bottom-line-not-look-wonderful

[Nekov]

James and Irving were mostly dynamite, but it's hard to win when the rest of your team stinks up the joint. Kevin Love missing that shot 4 inches from the basket with just over two to go was the worst.  If he makes that, they are up 8. Alas, this will be a fitting end to the worst playoffs ever.

Yes, the rest of the team isn't performing as well as they should but as I said before I think this is a matter of Cleveland not playing enough as a team. I read a statistic yesterday that said that 55% of the shots lebron is taking during the finals are in possessions where there were no passes made, compared to 27% during the first 3 rounds.
During the season they averaged 22.7 assists per game, during the finals they've had 15 in game 1, 27 in game 2 (lebron had 14) and 17 in game 3.
There are some teams you can beat playing hero-ball, but GSW is not one of those.

[bosk1]

KD!!! I think he just locked up the Finals MVP award

I don't see it going any other way.  But for all the talk about him, which is completely justified, Klay Thompson was pretty spectacular too.  His point total was just behind Durant's by a single point, and the guy was everywhere on defense.  Despite Kyrie Irving's numbers, Thompson was playing defense as well as you can possibly play defense.  Irving was just shooting out of his mind on some incredibly high-difficulty contested shots.  If those shots are going to fall, there's just nothing any defender can do.  To see that happen and to see Thompson keep after it possession after possession was amazing. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Thompson's defense has been amazing. Really, the whole team's defense is a sight to behold. I also feel like Curry deserves a special mention for the way he's been playing. The guy is one of the more underappreciated players I can remember. Just a week or two ago, every talk show was debating whether or not he's better than Irving. That's a pretty ridiculous question.

[bosk1]

Thompson's defense has been amazing. Really, the whole team's defense is a sight to behold. I also feel like Curry deserves a special mention for the way he's been playing. The guy is one of the more underappreciated players I can remember. Just a week or two ago, every talk show was debating whether or not he's better than Irving. That's a pretty ridiculous question.

Curry is absolutely an elite defender.  I think he just doesn't get the credit he deserves in that regard because (1) he is "small" by NBA standards, and (2) he is one man on a team of elite defenders.  Yeah, he'll lost a 1-on-1 matchup against LeBron 9 times out of 10.  But that fact doesn't do justice to what he brings on the defensive side of the ball. 

Going back to Klay, there were so many moments last night when I kept feeling like they were letting up on defense.  But then I would see the replays and realize that they were playing outstanding defense, but Kyrie and LeBron were just out of their minds in terms of making contested, sick difficulty level shots.  And IMO, their defense is absolutely a key reason they won the game last night.  The Cavs cooled off because the Warriors' defense had them exhausted by the end of the 4th. 


EDIT:  Just read an article that I thought has some perfect insight:

Bottom line: Cleveland’s screwed. The Cavs stole a title last year – and they should be thrilled they did. Because Cleveland is on a path that would make the Buffalo Bills blush. They are good enough to roll through the East for the next few seasons. But they are nowhere near good enough to beat the behemoth coming out of the West.

What’s scarier: Golden State could get better. The core of the team – those four 20-somethings just entering the prime of their careers – aren’t going anywhere. The skill level of Durant, Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson and Draymond Green is matched by an awareness of what it is they are a part of.

Agreed on both counts.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The whole league is screwed. Props to the Warriors - they deserve their success - but these next couple of seasons could be unbearable for anyone not living in the Bay Area.

[KevShmev]

To me, the four best players in the league are obviously James, Durant, Curry and Leonard, and I really think you could make a strong argument for Klay Thompson being the 5th best.

Great shooter.
Great defender.
Great team guy.
Unselfish player.

What more can you ask for?

[Azyiu]

To sum up what you guys have said about the Warriors, which I agreed for the most parts, I think it is safe to say they are the modern version of the Showtime Lakers. They both play with tremendous flair, very fun to watch, can score a ton; and both are under-rated defensively. The Cavs, or specially LBJ and Kyrie played GREAT in Game 3, there is no question about it. If they were facing any other teams, that team would have lost by at least 20 plus points. This is how great these Warriors are this year, especially with KD!

That being said, LBJ simply ran out of gas and CHOKED in the final minutes of Game 3. His misses in the final 2 minutes, and then his defensive mental lapse against KD (allowing him to make a gutsy 3 to take the lead for good) simply helped stop all GOAT discussion right there!

[King Postwhore]

To me, the four best players in the league are obviously James, Durant, Curry and Leonard, and I really think you could make a strong argument for Klay Thompson being the 5th best.

Great shooter.
Great defender.
Great team guy.
Unselfish player.

What more can you ask for?

No argument from me on this.

[KevShmev]

To sum up what you guys have said about the Warriors, which I agreed for the most parts, I think it is safe to say they are the modern version of the Showtime Lakers. They both play with tremendous flair, very fun to watch, can score a ton; and both are under-rated defensively. The Cavs, or specially LBJ and Kyrie played GREAT in Game 3, there is no question about it. If they were facing any other teams, that team would have lost by at least 20 plus points. This is how great these Warriors are this year, especially with KD!

That being said, LBJ simply ran out of gas and CHOKED in the final minutes of Game 3. His misses in the final 2 minutes, and then his defensive mental lapse against KD (allowing him to make a gutsy 3 to take the lead for good) simply helped stop all GOAT discussion right there!

Not really.  I know people have this odd memory of the past, like Jordan, Magic, etc. never didn't totally come through in the clutch, but it's crap.  Only in the current world we live in would a guy who had 39-11-9 be accused of choking.

[Azyiu]

To sum up what you guys have said about the Warriors, which I agreed for the most parts, I think it is safe to say they are the modern version of the Showtime Lakers. They both play with tremendous flair, very fun to watch, can score a ton; and both are under-rated defensively. The Cavs, or specially LBJ and Kyrie played GREAT in Game 3, there is no question about it. If they were facing any other teams, that team would have lost by at least 20 plus points. This is how great these Warriors are this year, especially with KD!

That being said, LBJ simply ran out of gas and CHOKED in the final minutes of Game 3. His misses in the final 2 minutes, and then his defensive mental lapse against KD (allowing him to make a gutsy 3 to take the lead for good) simply helped stop all GOAT discussion right there!

Not really.  I know people have this odd memory of the past, like Jordan, Magic, etc. never didn't totally come through in the clutch, but it's crap.  Only in the current world we live in would a guy who had 39-11-9 be accused of choking.

Like I said earlier in my post, LBJ played GREAT in Game 3... by choking, I mean his ability and his mental toughest when it comes to closing moments of a tight game. For any player in his level, it doesn't matter how he started the game, it is how he closed it. That last defensive lapse on KD was pretty bad for a player at his level. I know it sounds "unfair", but he is one of the top players in league history, and every move he makes is analyzed under a microscope. Is it fair? Maybe not entirely, but IMO it is in a way how we talking heads separate greatest players among themselves.

[KevShmev]

To sum up what you guys have said about the Warriors, which I agreed for the most parts, I think it is safe to say they are the modern version of the Showtime Lakers. They both play with tremendous flair, very fun to watch, can score a ton; and both are under-rated defensively. The Cavs, or specially LBJ and Kyrie played GREAT in Game 3, there is no question about it. If they were facing any other teams, that team would have lost by at least 20 plus points. This is how great these Warriors are this year, especially with KD!

That being said, LBJ simply ran out of gas and CHOKED in the final minutes of Game 3. His misses in the final 2 minutes, and then his defensive mental lapse against KD (allowing him to make a gutsy 3 to take the lead for good) simply helped stop all GOAT discussion right there!

Not really.  I know people have this odd memory of the past, like Jordan, Magic, etc. never didn't totally come through in the clutch, but it's crap.  Only in the current world we live in would a guy who had 39-11-9 be accused of choking.

Like I said earlier in my post, LBJ played GREAT in Game 3... by choking, I mean his ability and his mental toughest when it comes to closing moments of a tight game. For any player in his level, it doesn't matter how he started the game, it is how he closed it. That last defensive lapse on KD was pretty bad for a player at his level. I know it sounds "unfair", but he is one of the top players in league history, and every move he makes is analyzed under a microscope. Is it fair? Maybe not entirely, but IMO it is in a way how we talking heads separate greatest players among themselves.

Magic Johnson CHOKED at the end of Game 7 in the 1984 Finals.  Throw him out of any discussion of all-time great players.

Tim Duncan missed a shot from 3 feet out in the last minute of a tight Game 7 against the Heat in 2013.  My God, what a CHOKER.

Michael Jordan missed a potential game-winning shot at the end of a tight playoff game against Indiana in 1998. So much for being the GOAT, because the true greats always come through at the end of games, right?

[KevShmev]

Sarcasm aside, have you already forgotten last year's Finals?  That was arguably the greatest performance in Finals HISTORY.  I swear, it's like some people have no memory.  Or they just love being haters.

[Azyiu]

Sarcasm aside, have you already forgotten last year's Finals?  That was arguably the greatest performance in Finals HISTORY.  I swear, it's like some people have no memory.  Or they just love being haters.

No. though LBJ is no longer one of my fav players for many reasons, I do not "hate" him per se. He IS still a great player, and yes, last year's Finals win coming from 1-3 is nothing short of epic.

But, for me why he isn't THE GOAT (he is among the greatest, but will never be THE one, that is my entire argument) is his killer instinct. Like in Game 3, he ran out of gas at the end and lets Kyrie take over. This is part of the reason why people don't consider him THE GOAT. He just doesn't have that killer instinct it seems.

And how about his Game 3 shooting to illustrate my view? I do not have that stats in front of me now, but it goes something like he shot better than 70% in both 1st and the 2nd qtrs, but it dropped to the mid 30% in the 3rd qtr and then only 26% in the 4th qtr. Ok, that may have contributed by the Dubs' defense, but the truth is he shot more mid to long range attempts in the second half, especially in the 4th qtr tells me either he couldn't attack the hoop? Or he just wasn't able to keep attacking? In Magic, TD, MJ or even Kobe's cases, even when they were tired, they were still able to display some sense of mental toughness, whether on the offensive ends or on the defensive ends. Sadly last night LBJ just couldn't deliver on either end in the final 3:10 or so.

[KevShmev]

All your post does is demonstrate that James is at worst 1b to Jordan's 1a.  You are basically admitting that he is so awesome that he could have played better in a game in which a) he had 39-11-9, and b) was +7 in 46 minutes of play (while the team was -12 in the 2 minutes he didn't play).  That is how high the standard is for him.  His critics are actually complimenting him when they nit pick the two or three things they think he did wrong/could have done better.  By all means, keep it up.

Oh, and these awesome (but apparently not awesome enough) performances are against what will probably go down as the best team ever.   The Warriors are about to complete possibly the greatest 3-season run in modern NBA history, yet they will not be celebrating a 3-peat because of one man: LeBron James.

And like I tell my older brother (he is a James hater), I am not even that big a fan of James, but his critics are so ridiculously over the top and silly with their petty criticisms that countering them makes me look like a fanboy.  Oh well.

[Azyiu]

All your post does is demonstrate that James is at worst 1b to Jordan's 1a.  You are basically admitting that he is so awesome that he could have played better in a game in which a) he had 39-11-9, and b) was +7 in 46 minutes of play (while the team was -12 in the 2 minutes he didn't play).  That is how high the standard is for him.  His critics are actually complimenting him when they nit pick the two or three things they think he did wrong/could have done better.  By all means, keep it up.

Oh, and these awesome (but apparently not awesome enough) performances are against what will probably go down as the best team ever.

Thanks for that sarcasm.

Like I said in my original post, he played GREAT in game 3. Am I nitpicking him? Yes, maybe, but don't we we all hold great players to that ridiculously high standard in most cases? In the end, I am not even trying to trash him or anything.

Anyway, Lue is also responsible for better manage his minutes. Playing him 39 minutes (or was it 46 mins?  ) is a touch too many for anyone, although I understand the Cavs were like -10 when he was on the bench.

[KevShmev]

That was not sarcasm that time; that was the God's honest truth.  Most critics of James really are complimenting him when they nit pick him (by holding him to an absurdly high standard, they are admitting his greatness).

Holding someone to a high standard is one thing; expecting perfection is another. 

People still ripping him for passing instead of shooting in certain situations, pardon my language, are freaking dumbasses.  Some of the biggest shots in Finals history have been made by role players, who had the ball passed to them by stars.  Thinking the biggest star should always take the shot in the big moment no matter what is the kind of meathead mentality that makes people love chuckers like Russell Westbrook.

Lue is getting outcoached, yes, but he has no choice but to play James as much as he is.  They get obliterated when is not out there every time.  I think he would have been smart to take some of his timeouts down the stretch last night to give James and Irving some rest on the bench instead of saving them all for the last minute.  Space them out and they would have been fresher.  The pace of those games and playing the minutes James is would wear anyone out. 

[Azyiu]

That was not sarcasm that time; that was the God's honest truth.  Most critics of James really are complimenting him when they nit pick him (by holding him to an absurdly high standard, they are admitting his greatness).

Holding someone to a high standard is one thing; expecting perfection is another. 

Lue is getting outcoached, yes, but he has no choice but to play James as much as he is.  They get obliterated when is not out there every time.  I think he would have been smart to take some of his timeouts down the stretch last night to give James and Irving some rest on the bench instead of saving them all for the last minute.  Space them out and they would have been fresher.  The pace of those games and playing the minutes James is would wear anyone out.

Sorry dude, guess I took it the wrong way a little back there...

Another thing I'd like to nitpick besides the Cavs failing to close out quarater (with or without LBJ on the court) is Kyrie's ball handling. He played great in Game 3, but some of his "great" shots were actually circus shots, and I don't think he can make half of those again. He has to, or the Cavs have to pass the ball around to create open spaces. Most of the night he was just impatient with the ball, especially late in the ball. I thought he held onto the ball way too long and allowing the Dubs to trap and force him to one side of the court. Oh well... still, I'd love to witness history as it happens, and I honestly (no hating involved) wish to see the Dubs go 16-0 in the playoffs with a sweep tomorrow! 

[bosk1]

I am a card-carrying LeBron "hater."   But I don't take anything away from his ability.  And I don't think it is fair to say he "choked" at the end of game 3.  He played a solid game.  That pass to Korver was a high percentage shot, and the Warriors were set up to where it likely looked to him like they were going to close and triple team him if he finished the drive and didn't kick.  Hard to criticize a decision made in the moment like that when we can Monday morning QB it to death.  I also think criticizing him for his D on Durant is unfair.  Durant was driving, so LeBron was on his heels preparing to back up.  Add to that the fact that he played all but less than 2 minutes or so of that game and was exhausted (I don't care that he says otherwise; you could see it on his face).  In the split second that Durant pulled up and shot, LeBron simply did not have time to change his balance and contest the shot.  It happened just that quick.  I don't know that if roles were reversed, Klay Thompson or Draymond Green defend that play any better at that stage in the game.  Maybe if he wasn't as tired, he might not have been as far back on his heels and may have reacted faster.  But still, it was a fraction of a second to react.  He gambled that Durant was going to drive, and he simply gambled wrong.  It happens.  Again, I don't think it's fair to criticize him for that. 

Along similar lines, I don't buy into Steven A.'s nonsense that if they get swept, it is a black mark on his legacy and he cannot be considered GOAT.  Nonsense.  Whether he ultimately is or isn't doesn't depend on one series. 

So, yeah, get off the man's back.

That said, I hope they get swept in humiliating fashion tomorrow night. 

[Syzzle]

Pretty sure this sums up this thread right now.

[Azyiu]

That said, I hope they get swept in humiliating fashion tomorrow night. 

I wouldn't mind that at all. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I think that basketball is a really complicated sport, but people try to make it simple so that they can enjoy it more. The sad truth is that it is possible for the best player (James) to get crushed by a superior team. While unlikely, it's also possible for the better team (2016 Golden State) to lose. Many people, when confronted with these realities, are like, "Then why am I even watching?"

James' Game 3 is a prime example of how complicated this stuff gets. The way that he played through the game's first 45 minutes was enough to blow out most of the teams in the league. Obviously not the Warriors and maybe not San Antonio, but that's about it. He didn't play well during the last three minutes, but he was also on the brink of physical exhaustion.

When Stephen A Smith says that James can't be considered the greatest of all-time because he's been swept a couple of times in the Finals, he's grossly oversimplifying things. Jordan was also swept a couple of times, if I remember correctly. Now, Stephen A might counter that those sweeps occurred early in Jordan's career and not in the Finals. OK, but the Warriors might be the greatest team of all-time, so isn't a sweep understandable? And, frankly, shouldn't we be focusing more on James' performance than the outcome of a team game?

I find it really ironic that sports have a more objective quality than anything else that is widely discussed in the culture - film, music, politics, etc. - yet people somehow find a way to make the conversation about sports the dumbest of them all.

[bosk1]

Great post.  But as to the last point, yey, they have to sell news, right?  If they can't make a story, there's nothing to talk about, and they are afraid ESPN.com will lost hits and ESPN will lose money.  But heck, we've been dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator since people have existed, so it shouldn't be surprising.   

Anyhow, it'll be interesting to see whether the Cavs fold or put up a fight.  I honestly have no idea which to expect.

[Azyiu]

So this story came out of Bleach Report. Reportedly several Cavs players are "highly agitated" by Curry's squat right after KD made that lead changing 3... I don't get it, but why is that squat offensive? 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2714680-cavaliers-players-reportedly-highly-agitated-over-stephen-currys-game-3-squat