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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2065 on: August 07, 2011, 12:43:30 AM »
Quote from: ReaPsTA on August 06, 2011, 01:37:20 PM
You guys keep talking about how things are more or less compressed, even though it's a more complicated process than that.  SC for example isn't that highly compressed, but it is intensely limited.  BCSL on the other hand has barely any limiting, but tons and tons of compression (on the main disc at least).

Yes it's more complicated than that. My aim was only to draw a subjective "better" or "worse" comparison with previous Dream Theater albums.
SC's drums in particular show a lot of limiting, and some of the guitars sound very gated in CM and TDEN especially. BCASL has a fair bit of breathing room in the mix (lucky we have the stems for that), and then it's the compression that takes the range off. I can't speak for anyone else, but BCASL still sounds noticably better to me (and OTBOA sounds better than that), and that's all I'm saying. The dynamic range isn't a directly proportional indicator of how good an album sounds, even if it's an important factor.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2066 on: August 07, 2011, 02:55:40 AM »
Can someone explain to me in very general terms what "compression" is?  I still don't get it.
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Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2067 on: August 07, 2011, 03:40:28 AM »
Compression is an audio treatment achieved through the use of a compressor, used to compress the dynamic range for a audio signal, and can be applied to a vocal, instrument or a whole mix.  Basically, it sets the lowest and the highest dB for whatever its applied to so, so that if the signal that comes through is a bit too loud, it brings it down so that the signal is within parameter the compressor is set at.  Likewise, if the signal that's coming through is too quiet, the compressor with bring it up to the parameter set at the, at the low dB end.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong :D
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Offline Ħ

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2068 on: August 07, 2011, 03:43:07 AM »
So....compression = bad?
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Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2069 on: August 07, 2011, 03:45:30 AM »
No not at all, I'd say almost every record has some compression on it somewhere.

Over-compression = bad.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2070 on: August 07, 2011, 03:47:03 AM »
Quote from: Ħ on August 07, 2011, 03:43:07 AM
So....compression = bad?

Not in itself. Compression used properly is a good thing, and can be used to even out volumes for consistency. The issue that is being discussed here is when albums use too much compression. When audio is compressed too far, it starts to sound distorted, unnatural and tiring to the ears.
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Quote from: Kotowboy on February 12, 2016, 02:16:07 PM
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Quote from: Mosh on November 12, 2015, 07:50:47 PM
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Offline Ħ

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2071 on: August 07, 2011, 03:49:19 AM »
Could you give an example (like timestamps) of over-compression and good compression?
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2072 on: August 07, 2011, 03:59:42 AM »
Quote from: Ħ on August 07, 2011, 03:49:19 AM
Could you give an example (like timestamps) of over-compression and good compression?

If you want to compare heavy compression to not much compression, listen to the first 30 seconds of A Rite of Passage , taking notice of when the guitars/rest of band kicks in. Even with just bass, the track starts off loud, and when the band comes in the overall volume doesn't get that much louder, but instead everything feels squished together, like there's no "room" left. Sort of like fitting a lot of clowns into a small clown car.

Now listen to the intro to The Mirror when the whole band kicks in. As each instrument comes in, each instrument remains clear. If you're listening to these back to back in mp3 or whatever, you'll notice the overall volume of the song is much lower than AROP, because there's not a lot of compression to boost the volume. Sort of like 5 midgets just hanging out in a large room.

That's right, I just compared The Mirror to a bunch of midgets. Take that as you will.
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Quote from: Kotowboy on February 12, 2016, 02:16:07 PM
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Quote from: Mosh on November 12, 2015, 07:50:47 PM
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2073 on: August 07, 2011, 04:02:38 AM »
If you can't hear any compression, then its good compression.
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Offline Psy

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2074 on: August 07, 2011, 04:48:41 AM »
This is probably one of the better comparisons between good mixing and bad mixing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2075 on: August 07, 2011, 05:13:09 AM »
That reminds me of when I listened to the Death Magnetic CD after only listening to the Guitar Hero mix..It was shocking ! It sounded like the speakers were blown ! I don't know how people can't hear the difference.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2076 on: August 07, 2011, 05:58:35 AM »
Quote from: Psy on August 07, 2011, 04:48:41 AM
This is probably one of the better comparisons between good mixing and bad mixing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I
That's actually pretty good.
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Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 09:19:46 PM
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Offline Groundhog

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2077 on: August 07, 2011, 10:51:51 AM »
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 07, 2011, 12:43:30 AM
The dynamic range isn't a directly proportional indicator of how good an album sounds, even if it's an important factor.

I'm putting more emphasis on the dynamic range and it's affect to sound. In my opinion it has a direct relation to many aspects of the sound. Things like proper soundstage, good bass extention, puch and clarity for example. Those aspects need a proper dynamic range. I'm quoting more numbers now whether you like it or not, because it is much easier to illustrate my point and those numbers go pretty much hand in hand with what I hear. All the horrible sounding modern albums I have encountered have had dynamic range of 5dB or less. I have not heard even one album that manages to sound good within that range. So in my experience within that range it doesn't matter how the mix or production is. The quality of mix/production can only make it slightly more tolerable. The closer the range gets to 9-12dB I'm hearing better soundstage, better bass, better drums, better clarity, better everything! This is the range where the most of the best sounding albums I've heard are. So again in my experience the better the dynamic range the better it will bring out good mixing and production.

It doesn't save the sound from poor production and mixing though. You need them all.

Good example on the compression with AROP vs The Mirror. I liked the midgets and all.  :laugh:

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 07, 2011, 05:58:35 AM
Quote from: Psy on August 07, 2011, 04:48:41 AM
This is probably one of the better comparisons between good mixing and bad mixing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I
That's actually pretty good.

Yeah, that's a good comparison. I find DM to be one of best examples of loudness war. They just went ridiculously overboard with it.
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Offline FretMuppet

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2078 on: August 07, 2011, 12:03:27 PM »
So is hearing a crisp hi-hat a good indication of low compression?  ;D :P
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Offline Groundhog

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2079 on: August 07, 2011, 12:14:49 PM »
Yes, it can be.

edit: The drums (and bass) are the first to suffer when dynamics are cut.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2080 on: August 07, 2011, 06:12:10 PM »
Step 1. Listen to Holier Than Thou from The Black Album.

Step 2. Listen to Broken Beat & Scarred from Death Magnetic

Death Magnetic is a good example of way way way way too much compression.

So much so that the overall audio is actually *distorted* and fuzzy.
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Offline TL

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2081 on: August 07, 2011, 09:22:22 PM »
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 07, 2011, 03:59:42 AM
That's right, I just compared The Mirror to a bunch of midgets. Take that as you will.
I think all future descriptions of DT songs should include a metaphor with various numbers of midgets, and the size of the space they're in.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2082 on: August 07, 2011, 09:24:25 PM »
Quote from: TL on August 07, 2011, 09:22:22 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 07, 2011, 03:59:42 AM
That's right, I just compared The Mirror to a bunch of midgets. Take that as you will.
I think all future descriptions of DT songs should include a metaphor with various numbers of midgets, and the size of the space they're in.

I really like this idea.

Metropolis is 50 midgets in a batmobile going 90mph into gotham city's bank
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2083 on: August 08, 2011, 12:20:51 AM »
Quote from: Jamesman on August 07, 2011, 09:24:25 PM
Quote from: TL on August 07, 2011, 09:22:22 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 07, 2011, 03:59:42 AM
That's right, I just compared The Mirror to a bunch of midgets. Take that as you will.
I think all future descriptions of DT songs should include a metaphor with various numbers of midgets, and the size of the space they're in.

I really like this idea.

Metropolis is 50 midgets in a batmobile going 90mph into gotham city's bank

:lol
Please tell me that TCOT is a bunch of midgets with monocles and beards furiously dancing around a tiny stonehenge monument.
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Quote from: Kotowboy on February 12, 2016, 02:16:07 PM
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Quote from: Mosh on November 12, 2015, 07:50:47 PM
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline borzo

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2084 on: August 08, 2011, 09:06:32 AM »
Why DT didn't release any info about the release of the single on amazon? Sounds strange.
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Offline The Silent Cody

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2085 on: August 08, 2011, 10:40:48 AM »
Quote from: borzo on August 08, 2011, 09:06:32 AM
Why DT didn't release any info about the release of the single on amazon? Sounds strange.
Maybe They will announce it tomorrow? ;) Hello BTW :)
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Offline borzo

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2086 on: August 08, 2011, 01:44:22 PM »
hello there. happy to be here (got a tatoto of the majesty symbol since i was 18). :P
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Offline The Silent Cody

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2087 on: August 08, 2011, 01:55:39 PM »
Quote from: borzo on August 08, 2011, 01:44:22 PM
hello there. happy to be here (got a tatoto of the majesty symbol since i was 18). :P
Wow, nice of You ;) I was thinking about a heart from Live At The Marquee cover when I was younger ;) but, let's not OT too much ;) I'll wait for amazon now ;)  In my country 9 of august will be for 2 hours... :)
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Offline bosk1

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2088 on: August 08, 2011, 01:57:00 PM »
First person I knew of who had a tatoto was this girl named Dorothy.  Can't remember where she got it, but I don't think it was Kansas.
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Offline ACID_FOX

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2089 on: August 08, 2011, 02:01:01 PM »
Not a huge fan of The Black Album, but it's one of the best produced albums ever.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2090 on: August 08, 2011, 06:02:46 PM »
Reload & Garage Inc [Disc1] are colossal too.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2091 on: August 08, 2011, 06:20:05 PM »
Quote from: bosk1 on August 08, 2011, 01:57:00 PM
First person I knew of who had a tatoto was this girl named Dorothy.  Can't remember where she got it, but I don't think it was Kansas.
You save comments for years, just waiting for the right opportunity.  Don't you?
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Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 09:19:46 PM
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Offline ReaperKK

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2092 on: August 08, 2011, 08:54:23 PM »
Quote from: wjc on July 28, 2011, 05:14:56 AM
Syme makes me appreciate Storm Thorgerson's principle of setting the picture up in real life so very much. He could at least have gone out for half a day and taken a picture of a lamb or something

Storm is master at creating artwork, I have a coffee tablebook of his and it's always wonderful to look at.
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Offline TL

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2093 on: August 08, 2011, 09:52:23 PM »
It's the 9th now here in Nova Scotia, and I've officially purchased OTBoA! Feels good man.
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Offline The Silent Cody

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2094 on: August 08, 2011, 11:49:22 PM »
And I can't because I live in Poland, and amazon.com does not sell  it for any ony country than US... :censored >:( >:(
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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2095 on: August 08, 2011, 11:49:42 PM »
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 08, 2011, 06:20:05 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 08, 2011, 01:57:00 PM
First person I knew of who had a tatoto was this girl named Dorothy.  Can't remember where she got it, but I don't think it was Kansas.
You save comments for years, just waiting for the right opportunity.  Don't you?
:lol
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Offline tri.ad

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2096 on: August 08, 2011, 11:56:02 PM »
Even if the single was available for purchase here, I wouldn't do it. I mean, it's just one more month until I can hear the whole new album, and until then, for the few times I want to hear OTBOA, I'll just stream it. *shrugs*
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2097 on: August 08, 2011, 11:58:24 PM »
Downloaded the Amazon.com version

It's interesting.  Certain parts of the mixes that felt exaggerated in the two Youtube versions aren't oppressively loud, which is what happens when you don't have an extra layer of Youtube compression.

But the mix is what it is, for better or for worse.  For the first time... ever, the bass is too loud for my tastes in certain parts of the song.  The drum mix is definitely more pulled back too.  It's not like in the Youtube version where they're inaudible or un-feelable at certain parts, but they're definitely not as dominant as before.  Basic things about it confuse me though, the cymbals sound like they haven't been EQ'd at all.  M?

The mastering is pretty compressed.  Not destructively so like in SC (not always hugging 0db), BCSL (the music isn't robbed of its punch), or ToT (the music breathes and has a sense of size), but more than I'd like.  Ah well.  Think more the 6DOIT level (maybe a bit better, that album has an underestimated amount of compression on it).  It could be better, but I haven't tried to listen to this song loud yet, too late at night right now.

I mean, honestly, there's a part of me that hopes this is a more tightly compressed single version and not the album version, which isn't a great thing.  But if this is how the song sounds, it's not bad, and certainly better than a lot of DT's recent stuff in my mind.  
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 12:10:48 AM by ReaPsTA »
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Offline SystematicThought

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2098 on: August 09, 2011, 12:04:07 AM »
Bridges in the Sky sounded like it had a better mix. Most reviews seem to be pointing out the production as well as being noticeable
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Offline TL

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Re: On the Backs of Angels Thread
« Reply #2099 on: August 09, 2011, 12:31:54 AM »
Didn't A Rite of Passage have a more compressed, less dynamic mix than the rest of BC&SL? At least when it was released as a single?

While I'd love to have a less compressed version of OTBoA, I'm fine with the MP3 download.
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